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  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    I would die to see a Rory PM and a Trump POTUS meet for first bilateral.

    "Hey kid, you been to afghani whatsit? Some hot duskie babes there."

    "Yes, I walked the whole country."

    "You walked? What are you poor?"
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited June 2019

    Ok so it looks at the moment like we may well get Boris as PM.

    Does anyone have a scooby-doo what he is actually going to do about Brexit?

    He's going to whizz off to Brussels in late July or August with the intention of shouting louder at Johnny Foreigner that the deal needs to be changed, ready for a new deal to be tied up and the legislation in place for October 31st. It's a straightforward plan, with just a few little problemettes:

    1. Shouting louder is not going to change anything.

    2. The Commission will be winding down, and if he can find anyone to talk to in late July or August he'll be politely told that nothing can now be discussed until the new Commission is in place on the 1st November.

    3. Even if he could find someone to talk to, and they miraculously were able to get the new EU parliament and 27 other states to agree to change the deal, there would only be about 8 weeks to formalise the new deal and implement the necessary legislation in a hostile House of Commons.

    But fear not! He has a Plan B: leave without a deal on October 31st. Unfortunately, there would still only be 8 weeks to implement the necessary legislation in a hostile House of Commons.

    The commitment to October 31st is absolutely brain-dead, perhaps the most stupid of all the stupid things which has characterised this Brexit mess.

    Nigel Farage, no fool, is well prepared to throw rocks at the inevitable disastrous climb-down.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236
    Charles said:

    viewcode said:

    brendan16 said:

    I presume NHS hospital beds are manufactured and supplied by private companies and not civil Servants? If a supplier was American and made good quality affordable beds would patients care?

    If it wasn’t for private suppliers and contractors including equipment and drug providers the NHS would collapse tomorrow. Some of those drugs and pieces of equipment will have been developed in the US by American companies.

    And as long as the NHS is free at the point of use - so what?
    I think I have explained this to you before, and may have to do so again, but the issue is whether (as part of a deal) the NHS is forced to source from a limited number of suppliers. If that happens, then those suppliers would collectively force up prices to the detriment of the NHS.
    Which would be illegal and we could fine them all their profits
    It is sometimes difficult to distinguish between companies actively colluding to drive up prices and companies not trying as hard as they can to push them down. Or companies that sincerely believe that their prices are as low as can be whilst lower-priced competitors cannot enter the market. A bad outcome does not require nefarious intent.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    Raab is ignorant; Boris is incompetent.

    Neither trait is attractive. But incompetence is more easily managed than ignorance is educated away.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,284
    Time for bed - night all!

    Trump is POTUS and BoJo soon to be PM - no need for nightmares tonight, the reality is already worse than any nightmare.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    viewcode said:

    brendan16 said:

    I presume NHS hospital beds are manufactured and supplied by private companies and not civil Servants? If a supplier was American and made good quality affordable beds would patients care?

    If it wasn’t for private suppliers and contractors including equipment and drug providers the NHS would collapse tomorrow. Some of those drugs and pieces of equipment will have been developed in the US by American companies.

    And as long as the NHS is free at the point of use - so what?
    I think I have explained this to you before, and may have to do so again, but the issue is whether (as part of a deal) the NHS is forced to source from a limited number of suppliers. If that happens, then those suppliers would collectively force up prices to the detriment of the NHS.
    Eh? It's the other way round. The whole point of a trade deal is that you expand the number of potential suppliers.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,284
    Pulpstar said:

    If Theresa May remains Acting Leader in June then she is still Leader.

    But that's not the rules:

    "When will Theresa May officially cease to be leader of the Conservative Party?"

    She officially ceases to be [leader of the Conservative Party] at the moment she resigns, even if she is an Acting Leader thereafter.

    Betfair are in a world of pain on this one.
    They may end up having to pay out on June and July :lol:
    That's not how an exchange works, or can work.
    Now you know why I don't bet :wink:
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, next election - Cons under Johnson offering Hard Brexit and Small State versus Lab under Corbyn offering Remain and Socialism.

    No hiding place.

    In the end Rich Remainers will go with Boris to protect their houses and gardens from being "grabbed" by Jezza! :D
    The absolute state of that garden tax idea - makes the Tories Dementia tax look a good idea.
    What's the garden tax idea ?
    The shocking communist proposal to, er, make council tax more closely related to the actual value of properties rather than notional values from the early 1990s, and to abolish the current principle of having a ceiling above which no extra can be paid however palatial the property.
    Whatever the rights and wrongs it will be a vote loser.
    Not among the c. 50% non-property owning population.
    Even those not owning property have family who do and it would impact them

    I think it will be judged by voters in the round - it depends what the extra atxes are going to be spent on. 'Tax the rich' is never likely to be a net vote loser imo.
    Too late its already got a name - Garden Tax.

    Not Mansion Tax, Not Yacht Tax, Not WAG Tax.

    Garden Tax - a tax on gardens, those areas of grass and flowers which surround ordinary houses.
    I've got a big garden but this wouldn't stop me voting Labour. Other things currently would but making council / property tax more progressive would be a big plus imo.
    Progressive - yep up for that. But it would be a hell of lot more deliverable if the upper bands were expanded than any complex alternative scheme.

    A lot of Lab stuff being proposed will take so long to implement due to complexity that it will not happen in a first term.

    New Lab were clever in having limited proposed pledges.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    viewcode said:

    brendan16 said:

    I presume NHS hospital beds are manufactured and supplied by private companies and not civil Servants? If a supplier was American and made good quality affordable beds would patients care?

    If it wasn’t for private suppliers and contractors including equipment and drug providers the NHS would collapse tomorrow. Some of those drugs and pieces of equipment will have been developed in the US by American companies.

    And as long as the NHS is free at the point of use - so what?
    I think I have explained this to you before, and may have to do so again, but the issue is whether (as part of a deal) the NHS is forced to source from a limited number of suppliers. If that happens, then those suppliers would collectively force up prices to the detriment of the NHS.
    Which would be illegal and we could fine them all their profits
    How does the cost of drugs in the US compare with current cost of drugs to the NHS?
    Order of magnitude higher. But that’s because US drug pricing is stupid. Until recently Medicare/Medicaid were not allowed to negotiate volume based discounts.

    The U.K. is a pioneer in value based pricing for drugs which works really well
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, next election - Cons under Johnson offering Hard Brexit and Small State versus Lab under Corbyn offering Remain and Socialism.

    No hiding place.

    In the end Rich Remainers will go with Boris to protect their houses and gardens from being "grabbed" by Jezza! :D
    The absolute state of that garden tax idea - makes the Tories Dementia tax look a good idea.
    What's the garden tax idea ?
    The shocking communist proposal to, er, make council tax more closely related to the actual value of properties rather than notional values from the early 1990s, and to abolish the current principle of having a ceiling above which no extra can be paid however palatial the property.
    Whatever the rights and wrongs it will be a vote loser.
    Not among the c. 50% non-property owning population.
    Even those not owning property have family who do and it would impact them

    I think it will be judged by voters in the round - it depends what the extra atxes are going to be spent on. 'Tax the rich' is never likely to be a net vote loser imo.
    Too late its already got a name - Garden Tax.

    Not Mansion Tax, Not Yacht Tax, Not WAG Tax.

    Garden Tax - a tax on gardens, those areas of grass and flowers which surround ordinary houses.
    I've got a big garden but this wouldn't stop me voting Labour. Other things currently would but making council / property tax more progressive would be a big plus imo.
    The number of people who say they are happy to pay more tax exceeds the number of people who actually are willing to pay more tax.

    And when it comes to tax changes its easier to fear you will lose out than expect to gain. This is even more likely to be true given the low regard our current politicians are held.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited June 2019
    “I saw a £3365 'average' bandied about somewhere - do you have the figures on each say £100k of valuation ?”

    Where did you see that figure - the Mail or express?

    £3365 is closer to the average tax for a Band H property now - not in Westminster of course. So why would the average figure increase to the level paid by the top 2 per cent of properties now to raise the same cash - most council taxpayers pay half that now and less?

    Of course if you own a multi million pound house in Barnes or Notting Hill or Hampstead you might want to start saving up. But frankly its about time as you have been having it too cushy since domestic rates were abolished in 1989.

    But by making it proportional to current not 1991 values it should be possible to design a system where most of the country pays less.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    viewcode said:

    Charles said:

    viewcode said:

    brendan16 said:

    I presume NHS hospital beds are manufactured and supplied by private companies and not civil Servants? If a supplier was American and made good quality affordable beds would patients care?

    If it wasn’t for private suppliers and contractors including equipment and drug providers the NHS would collapse tomorrow. Some of those drugs and pieces of equipment will have been developed in the US by American companies.

    And as long as the NHS is free at the point of use - so what?
    I think I have explained this to you before, and may have to do so again, but the issue is whether (as part of a deal) the NHS is forced to source from a limited number of suppliers. If that happens, then those suppliers would collectively force up prices to the detriment of the NHS.
    Which would be illegal and we could fine them all their profits
    It is sometimes difficult to distinguish between companies actively colluding to drive up prices and companies not trying as hard as they can to push them down. Or companies that sincerely believe that their prices are as low as can be whilst lower-priced competitors cannot enter the market. A bad outcome does not require nefarious intent.
    I know, but you phrased it poorly...

    (In any event this hype over NHS privatisation remains as much bull crap as it always is)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,284
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    viewcode said:

    brendan16 said:

    I presume NHS hospital beds are manufactured and supplied by private companies and not civil Servants? If a supplier was American and made good quality affordable beds would patients care?

    If it wasn’t for private suppliers and contractors including equipment and drug providers the NHS would collapse tomorrow. Some of those drugs and pieces of equipment will have been developed in the US by American companies.

    And as long as the NHS is free at the point of use - so what?
    I think I have explained this to you before, and may have to do so again, but the issue is whether (as part of a deal) the NHS is forced to source from a limited number of suppliers. If that happens, then those suppliers would collectively force up prices to the detriment of the NHS.
    Which would be illegal and we could fine them all their profits
    How does the cost of drugs in the US compare with current cost of drugs to the NHS?
    Order of magnitude higher. But that’s because US drug pricing is stupid. Until recently Medicare/Medicaid were not allowed to negotiate volume based discounts.

    The U.K. is a pioneer in value based pricing for drugs which works really well
    I thought the free market was supposed to benefit the consumer?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236

    viewcode said:

    brendan16 said:

    I presume NHS hospital beds are manufactured and supplied by private companies and not civil Servants? If a supplier was American and made good quality affordable beds would patients care?

    If it wasn’t for private suppliers and contractors including equipment and drug providers the NHS would collapse tomorrow. Some of those drugs and pieces of equipment will have been developed in the US by American companies.

    And as long as the NHS is free at the point of use - so what?
    I think I have explained this to you before, and may have to do so again, but the issue is whether (as part of a deal) the NHS is forced to source from a limited number of suppliers. If that happens, then those suppliers would collectively force up prices to the detriment of the NHS.
    Eh? It's the other way round. The whole point of a trade deal is that you expand the number of potential suppliers.
    You might need to tell Trump that... :)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,284

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, next election - Cons under Johnson offering Hard Brexit and Small State versus Lab under Corbyn offering Remain and Socialism.

    No hiding place.

    In the end Rich Remainers will go with Boris to protect their houses and gardens from being "grabbed" by Jezza! :D
    The absolute state of that garden tax idea - makes the Tories Dementia tax look a good idea.
    What's the garden tax idea ?
    The shocking communist proposal to, er, make council tax more closely related to the actual value of properties rather than notional values from the early 1990s, and to abolish the current principle of having a ceiling above which no extra can be paid however palatial the property.
    Whatever the rights and wrongs it will be a vote loser.
    Not among the c. 50% non-property owning population.
    Even those not owning property have family who do and it would impact them

    I think it will be judged by voters in the round - it depends what the extra atxes are going to be spent on. 'Tax the rich' is never likely to be a net vote loser imo.
    Too late its already got a name - Garden Tax.

    Not Mansion Tax, Not Yacht Tax, Not WAG Tax.

    Garden Tax - a tax on gardens, those areas of grass and flowers which surround ordinary houses.
    I've got a big garden but this wouldn't stop me voting Labour. Other things currently would but making council / property tax more progressive would be a big plus imo.
    The number of people who say they are happy to pay more tax exceeds the number of people who actually are willing to pay more tax.

    And when it comes to tax changes its easier to fear you will lose out than expect to gain. This is even more likely to be true given the low regard our current politicians are held.
    You may be right... Then again are voters going to place any more trust in politicians who say they are going to bring taxes down?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,713
    Katie Hopkins produces a new version of the Nazi Soviet pact https://twitter.com/KTHopkins/status/1135929423692259328?s=20
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044

    Time for bed - night all!

    Trump is POTUS and BoJo soon to be PM - no need for nightmares tonight, the reality is already worse than any nightmare.

    Quite pleased I topped up my Boris quota at just over 4 back in May.
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,777
    The way it's shaping up is that it will be BORIS + A N OTHER.

    The consensus here is that

    a) Boris will make the final two.
    b) Gove/Hunt/Javid/Stewart/Hancock can't beat Boris in the membership vote.
    c) Raab is too unpopular to get enough votes to reach the final two
    d) There has to be a vote taken to the membership and they will only vote for a Brexiteer.

    So if you are a Tory MP and you don't want Boris, you don't like Raab and you realise that there will be a membership vote which a "Brexiteer" will win, who do you vote for?

    There's only Leadsom left. Maybe her price isn't so daft after all? Or if Penny Mordaunt runs, she could also be the A N OTHER who fits the bill.

    Draft Penny!
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, next election - Cons under Johnson offering Hard Brexit and Small State versus Lab under Corbyn offering Remain and Socialism.

    No hiding place.

    In the end Rich Remainers will go with Boris to protect their houses and gardens from being "grabbed" by Jezza! :D
    The absolute state of that garden tax idea - makes the Tories Dementia tax look a good idea.
    What's the garden tax idea ?
    The shocking communist proposal to, er, make council tax more closely related to the actual value of properties rather than notional values from the early 1990s, and to abolish the current principle of having a ceiling above which no extra can be paid however palatial the property.
    Whatever the rights and wrongs it will be a vote loser.
    Not among the c. 50% non-property owning population.
    Even those not owning property have family who do and it would impact them

    I think it will be judged by voters in the round - it depends what the extra atxes are going to be spent on. 'Tax the rich' is never likely to be a net vote loser imo.
    Too late its already got a name - Garden Tax.

    Not Mansion Tax, Not Yacht Tax, Not WAG Tax.

    Garden Tax - a tax on gardens, those areas of grass and flowers which surround ordinary houses.
    I've got a big garden but this wouldn't stop me voting Labour. Other things currently would but making council / property tax more progressive would be a big plus imo.
    But another_richard is clearly correct. The optics of a Garden Tax are hideous. Any tax that can be framed as an assault on something we love, or something we fear, is a bad bad tax, politically.

    Dementia tax. Death tax. Garden tax.

    So you like hedgehogs and primroses do you?? So you have a tiny green space where you can sit in the sun, on the rare days when it's not raining? Hah! Well think again, you fat cat, flower loving scum, because Jeremy and Labour are gonna TAX your GARDEN until you BLEED.

    Then where will you go? Into your cellar?? You bourgeois butterfly-admiring Nazi.

    It's beyond terrible. Never put "gardens" and "tax" in the same sentence.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Ok so it looks at the moment like we may well get Boris as PM.

    Does anyone have a scooby-doo what he is actually going to do about Brexit?

    He's going to whizz off to Brussels in late July or August with the intention of shouting louder at Johnny Foreigner that the deal needs to be changed, ready for a new deal to be tied up and the legislation in place for October 31st. It's a straightforward plan, with just a few little problemettes:

    1. Shouting louder is not going to change anything.

    2. The Commission will be winding down, and if he can find anyone to talk to in late July or August he'll be politely told that nothing can now be discussed until the new Commission is in place on the 1st November.

    3. Even if he could find someone to talk to, and they miraculously were able to get the new EU parliament and 27 other states to agree to change the deal, there would only be about 8 weeks to formalise the new deal and implement the necessary legislation in a hostile House of Commons.

    But fear not! He has a Plan B: leave without a deal on October 31st. Unfortunately, there would still only be 8 weeks to implement the necessary legislation in a hostile House of Commons.

    The commitment to October 31st is absolutely brain-dead, perhaps the most stupid of all the stupid things which has characterised this Brexit mess.

    Nigel Farage, no fool, is well prepared to throw rocks at the inevitable disastrous climb-down.
    Does it matter?

    Once the new Commission President is chosen conversations can be made with the Commissioner-elect. If an indication is reached that a new conversation is possible, that a new deal is possible then that forms grounds for an extension. An extension for a new deal is different to an extension because you can't achieve anything.

    If the Commissioner-elect is still insisting that there will be no new negotiations then we should No Deal Brexit. The HoC won't like it on Oct 31 but they won't like it any other date either.

    As for Farage, he may throw rocks but its not going to change things. Boris will already be in Downing Street, no new election will be scheduled. So long as a solution is reached before the next election the extension will be forgotten.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    _Anazina_ said:

    Raab is ignorant; Boris is incompetent.

    Neither trait is attractive. But incompetence is more easily managed than ignorance is educated away.

    I reckon Boris will put in a good team in Cabinet. Bit Team of All the Rivals. Gove at CoE. Let them get on with detail, while he does the fun stuff.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    brendan16 said:

    “I saw a £3365 'average' bandied about somewhere - do you have the figures on each say £100k of valuation ?”

    Where did you see that figure - the Mail or express?

    £3365 is closer to the average tax for a Band H property now - not in Westminster of course. So why would the average figure increase to the level paid by the top 2 per cent of properties now to raise the same cash - most council taxpayers pay half that now and less?

    Of course if you own a multi million pound house in Barnes or Notting Hill or Hampstead you might want to start saving up. But frankly its about time as you have been having it too cushy since domestic rates were abolished in 1989.

    But by making it proportional to current not 1991 values it should be possible to design a system where most of the country pays less.

    I hope you're right !

    It'll be in Labour's manifesto hopefully for examination :}
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    viewcode said:

    brendan16 said:

    I presume NHS hospital beds are manufactured and supplied by private companies and not civil Servants? If a supplier was American and made good quality affordable beds would patients care?

    If it wasn’t for private suppliers and contractors including equipment and drug providers the NHS would collapse tomorrow. Some of those drugs and pieces of equipment will have been developed in the US by American companies.

    And as long as the NHS is free at the point of use - so what?
    I think I have explained this to you before, and may have to do so again, but the issue is whether (as part of a deal) the NHS is forced to source from a limited number of suppliers. If that happens, then those suppliers would collectively force up prices to the detriment of the NHS.
    Which would be illegal and we could fine them all their profits
    How does the cost of drugs in the US compare with current cost of drugs to the NHS?
    Order of magnitude higher. But that’s because US drug pricing is stupid. Until recently Medicare/Medicaid were not allowed to negotiate volume based discounts.

    The U.K. is a pioneer in value based pricing for drugs which works really well
    I thought the free market was supposed to benefit the consumer?
    Healthcare isn't a free market. Either here or in the US. The US has laws forbidding free market decisions that would lower prices.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    edited June 2019
    HYUFD said:
    This is even worse. Just caught up with it on Twitter.


    https://twitter.com/Holbornlolz/status/1135920563820482560


    The blonde woman has been doxxed and is now in social media hiding. She works for the NHS!

    Dreadful behaviour. It's a hateful mob mentality, the poor policewoman is clearly terrified.

    Sad times
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    HYUFD said:
    Donald Trump goes around assaulting pensioners?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited June 2019
    Byronic said:

    HYUFD said:
    I just caught up with this on Twitter. The blonde woman has been doxxed and is now in social media hiding. She works for the NHS!

    Dreadful behaviour. It's a hateful mob mentality, the poor policewoman is clearly terrified.

    Sad times
    This is another person being assualted?

    The other incident (with the screeching woman from the NHS) was a middle aged man having a milkshake thrown over him while a young policewoman looks on terrified,,,,
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236
    HYUFD said:
    OK, I give up. How do you hack What'sApp?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,713
    Commons after the next general election under a Boris Tories according to Yougov https://twitter.com/GladstonianLib/status/1136040566280658944?s=20
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    HYUFD said:
    I think Boris genuinely believes in Brexit deal or no deal.

    When people say he could do an about turn and endorse remain or a second referendum I think it's just wishful thinking.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    Byronic said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, next election - Cons under Johnson offering Hard Brexit and Small State versus Lab under Corbyn offering Remain and Socialism.

    No hiding place.

    In the end Rich Remainers will go with Boris to protect their houses and gardens from being "grabbed" by Jezza! :D
    The absolute state of that garden tax idea - makes the Tories Dementia tax look a good idea.
    What's the garden tax idea ?
    The shocking communist proposal to, er, make council tax more closely related to the actual value of properties rather than notional values from the early 1990s, and to abolish the current principle of having a ceiling above which no extra can be paid however palatial the property.
    Whatever the rights and wrongs it will be a vote loser.
    Not among the c. 50% non-property owning population.
    Even those not owning property have family who do and it would impact them

    I think it will be judged by voters in the round - it depends what the extra atxes are going to be spent on. 'Tax the rich' is never likely to be a net vote loser imo.
    Too late its already got a name - Garden Tax.

    Not Mansion Tax, Not Yacht Tax, Not WAG Tax.

    Garden Tax - a tax on gardens, those areas of grass and flowers which surround ordinary houses.
    I've got a big garden but this wouldn't stop me voting Labour. Other things currently would but making council / property tax more progressive would be a big plus imo.
    But another_richard is clearly correct. The optics of a Garden Tax are hideous. Any tax that can be framed as an assault on something we love, or something we fear, is a bad bad tax, politically.

    Dementia tax. Death tax. Garden tax.

    So you like hedgehogs and primroses do you?? So you have a tiny green space where you can sit in the sun, on the rare days when it's not raining? Hah! Well think again, you fat cat, flower loving scum, because Jeremy and Labour are gonna TAX your GARDEN until you BLEED.

    Then where will you go? Into your cellar?? You bourgeois butterfly-admiring Nazi.

    It's beyond terrible. Never put "gardens" and "tax" in the same sentence.
    How about a tax raid on liberal elitists in well off remain voting areas and a tax cut for working class northern leavers with gardens - which is closer to what Labour are proposing
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    Byronic said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, next election - Cons under Johnson offering Hard Brexit and Small State versus Lab under Corbyn offering Remain and Socialism.

    No hiding place.

    In the end Rich Remainers will go with Boris to protect their houses and gardens from being "grabbed" by Jezza! :D
    The absolute state of that garden tax idea - makes the Tories Dementia tax look a good idea.
    What's the garden tax idea ?
    snip
    Whatever the rights and wrongs it will be a vote loser.
    Not among the c. 50% non-property owning population.
    Even those not owning property have family who do and it would impact them

    I think it will be judged by voters in the round - it depends what the extra atxes are going to be spent on. 'Tax the rich' is never likely to be a net vote loser imo.
    Too late its already got a name - Garden Tax.

    Not Mansion Tax, Not Yacht Tax, Not WAG Tax.

    Garden Tax - a tax on gardens, those areas of grass and flowers which surround ordinary houses.
    I've got a big garden but this wouldn't stop me voting Labour. Other things currently would but making council / property tax more progressive would be a big plus imo.
    But another_richard is clearly correct. The optics of a Garden Tax are hideous. Any tax that can be framed as an assault on something we love, or something we fear, is a bad bad tax, politically.

    Dementia tax. Death tax. Garden tax.

    So you like hedgehogs and primroses do you?? So you have a tiny green space where you can sit in the sun, on the rare days when it's not raining? Hah! Well think again, you fat cat, flower loving scum, because Jeremy and Labour are gonna TAX your GARDEN until you BLEED.

    Then where will you go? Into your cellar?? You bourgeois butterfly-admiring Nazi.

    It's beyond terrible. Never put "gardens" and "tax" in the same sentence.
    The attack dogs of Tory party will add 'Granny' to give 'Granny's garden tax'.

    Just before Gran succumbs to dementia and has to sell her home, she will have to fork out to enjoy her last couple of years in her own garden.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    Pulpstar said:

    claybatch said:

    I checked with betfair on a recorded telephone line.
    They said that the bet when does May leave is when a new leader is appointed. Odd but there you are. I have money on July as a result. For a long time the market was under a false impression and I think betfair needs to be much clearer up front on these definitions

    The rules definition of that market are an absolute outrage. Incorrectly defined, but yes it probably is July.
    I posted an apparently definitive ruling a few threads back (June 2):


    I have looked into the matter for you an dI can confirm that for the way we are interpreting as her exit date is the day that she formally steps down as Leader.

    Although Theresa May has announced that on June 7th she will resign, whilst unlikely as you have said, there is still a possibility that this won't go through. As this is the case, we will only settle once her replacement is confirmed and steps up to take the role instead of her.

    So if Theresa May announces her resignation on June 7th, which is expected, however her successor is announced at a later point, it would be the case that we settle on when she officially ceases to be a leader in any form.

    I hope this clears up any confusion for you.

    Let me know if there is anything else we can help with.

    Thanks,

    Francesca

    Betfair Customer Service Management
    -----------
    I had a bet on her leaving in June, but reading this made me think that if she is still caretaker leader until her replacement is chosen, so I cashed out rather than risk an unhelpful interpetation. The question is whether there is a period when she is no longer leader (having resigned) but there is no new leader yet. I tend to think it'll be July but I wouldn't bet the house on it.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    brendan16 said:

    Byronic said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, next election - Cons under Johnson offering Hard Brexit and Small State versus Lab under Corbyn offering Remain and Socialism.

    No hiding place.

    In the end Rich Remainers will go with Boris to protect their houses and gardens from being "grabbed" by Jezza! :D
    The absolute state of that garden tax idea - makes the Tories Dementia tax look a good idea.
    What's the garden tax idea ?
    The shng above which no extra can be paid however palatial the property.
    Whatever the rights and wrongs it will be a vote loser.
    Not among the c. 50% non-property owning population.
    Even those not owning property have family who do and it would impact them

    I think it will be judged by voters in the round - it depends what the extra atxes are going to be spent on. 'Tax the rich' is never likely to be a net vote loser imo.
    Too late its already got a name - Garden Tax.

    Not Mansion Tax, Not Yacht Tax, Not WAG Tax.

    Garden Tax - a tax on gardens, those areas of grass and flowers which surround ordinary houses.
    I've got a big garden but this wouldn't stop me voting Labour. Other things currently would but making council / property tax more progressive would be a big plus imo.
    Bu You bourgeois butterfly-admiring Nazi.

    It's beyond terrible. Never put "gardens" and "tax" in the same sentence.
    How about a tax raid on liberal elitists in well off remain voting areas and a tax cut for working class northern leavers with gardens - which is closer to what Labour are proposing
    But that's my point. The tax is quite possibly sound and sensible (as was, arguably, the dementia tax?). But when you are proposing a new tax you have to make doubly sure it cannot be framed, by your opponents, in a way which makes you look predatory or sinister. See, again, the dementia tax. Calamitous politics.

    The Lib Dems were much cleverer with the mansion tax. Who doesn't want the owners-of-mansions to pay more tax?! Go for it. But taxing the gardens of the British? Why not have a pet tax, or a tax on darts and pints, or a tax on watching the footie?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    brendan16 said:

    “I saw a £3365 'average' bandied about somewhere - do you have the figures on each say £100k of valuation ?”

    Where did you see that figure - the Mail or express?

    £3365 is closer to the average tax for a Band H property now - not in Westminster of course. So why would the average figure increase to the level paid by the top 2 per cent of properties now to raise the same cash - most council taxpayers pay half that now and less?

    Of course if you own a multi million pound house in Barnes or Notting Hill or Hampstead you might want to start saving up. But frankly its about time as you have been having it too cushy since domestic rates were abolished in 1989.

    But by making it proportional to current not 1991 values it should be possible to design a system where most of the country pays less.

    I pay half my income in tax. That’s reasonable (although not having a personal allowance grates).

    You want to effectively increase my income tax rate to 75%. I think that’s greedy of you.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    brendan16 said:

    Byronic said:

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:



    In the end Rich Remainers will go with Boris to protect their houses and gardens from being "grabbed" by Jezza! :D

    The absolute state of that garden tax idea - makes the Tories Dementia tax look a good idea.
    What's the garden tax idea ?
    The shocking communist proposal to, er, make council tax more closely related to the actual value of properties rather than notional values from the early 1990s, and to abolish the current principle of having a ceiling above which no extra can be paid however palatial the property.
    Whatever the rights and wrongs it will be a vote loser.
    Not among the c. 50% non-property owning population.
    Even those not owning property have family who do and it would impact them

    I think it will be judged by voters in the round - it depends what the extra atxes are going to be spent on. 'Tax the rich' is never likely to be a net vote loser imo.
    Too late its already got a name - Garden Tax.

    Not Mansion Tax, Not Yacht Tax, Not WAG Tax.

    Garden Tax - a tax on gardens, those areas of grass and flowers which surround ordinary houses.
    I've got a big garden but this wouldn't stop me voting Labour. Other things currently would but making council / property tax more progressive would be a big plus imo.
    But another_richard is clearly correct. The optics of a Garden Tax are hideous. Any tax that can be framed as an assault on something we love, or something we fear, is a bad bad tax, politically.

    Dementia tax. Death tax. Garden tax.

    So you like hedgehogs and primroses do you?? So you have a tiny green space where you can sit in the sun, on the rare days when it's not raining? Hah! Well think again, you fat cat, flower loving scum, because Jeremy and Labour are gonna TAX your GARDEN until you BLEED.

    Then where will you go? Into your cellar?? You bourgeois butterfly-admiring Nazi.

    It's beyond terrible. Never put "gardens" and "tax" in the same sentence.
    How about a tax raid on liberal elitists in well off remain voting areas and a tax cut for working class northern leavers with gardens - which is closer to what Labour are proposing
    If you want that then the easiest thing is to increase the number of council tax bands.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    viewcode said:

    brendan16 said:

    I presume NHS hospital beds are manufactured and supplied by private companies and not civil Servants? If a supplier was American and made good quality affordable beds would patients care?

    If it wasn’t for private suppliers and contractors including equipment and drug providers the NHS would collapse tomorrow. Some of those drugs and pieces of equipment will have been developed in the US by American companies.

    And as long as the NHS is free at the point of use - so what?
    I think I have explained this to you before, and may have to do so again, but the issue is whether (as part of a deal) the NHS is forced to source from a limited number of suppliers. If that happens, then those suppliers would collectively force up prices to the detriment of the NHS.
    Which would be illegal and we could fine them all their profits
    How does the cost of drugs in the US compare with current cost of drugs to the NHS?
    Order of magnitude higher. But that’s because US drug pricing is stupid. Until recently Medicare/Medicaid were not allowed to negotiate volume based discounts.

    The U.K. is a pioneer in value based pricing for drugs which works really well
    I thought the free market was supposed to benefit the consumer?
    ? Healthcare isn’t a free market anywhere in the world that I’m aware of.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    edited June 2019
    Too bad. He has ideas, and has shown he can think outside the box and beyond Leave/Remain Left/Right binaries. Therefore the rules must be changed. Otherwise, it would be "chaos". Just when the Tory Party looks like coalescing around a delusion. And we can't have that, can we? That was what brought Ed Miliband down.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    edited June 2019
    See here for the full political catastrophe of the garden tax. A neutral website poses the question:

    "Labour’s Land Value Tax: will you have to sell your garden?"


    https://fullfact.org/economy/labours-land-value-tax-will-you-have-sell-your-garden/



    That is a query which no sane political party should ever want to invoke.

    EDIT: even the Daily Mirror is using the phrase "garden tax" -

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/what-labour-garden-tax-explained-10570908

    So it has been successfully framed as something horrid and evil. A total own goal.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    Byronic said:

    See here for the full political catastrophe of the garden tax. A neutral website poses the question:

    "Labour’s Land Value Tax: will you have to sell your garden?"


    https://fullfact.org/economy/labours-land-value-tax-will-you-have-sell-your-garden/



    That is a query which no sane political party should ever want to invoke.

    EDIT: even the Daily Mirror is using the phrase "garden tax" -

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/what-labour-garden-tax-explained-10570908

    So it has been successfully framed as something horrid and evil. A total own goal.

    Yep and that's before we get on to the land and property grabs.

    My guess is that Boris will absolutely wipe the floor with Jezza in an autumn election. It will be such a mismatch as to be kind of embarrassing...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    HYUFD said:

    Katie Hopkins produces a new version of the Nazi Soviet pact https://twitter.com/KTHopkins/status/1135929423692259328?s=20

    Ribbentrop and Molotov are dead ;).
  • viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:
    OK, I give up. How do you hack What'sApp?
    Screenshots within the group?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2019

    Pulpstar said:

    claybatch said:

    I checked with betfair on a recorded telephone line.
    They said that the bet when does May leave is when a new leader is appointed. Odd but there you are. I have money on July as a result. For a long time the market was under a false impression and I think betfair needs to be much clearer up front on these definitions

    The rules definition of that market are an absolute outrage. Incorrectly defined, but yes it probably is July.
    I posted an apparently definitive ruling a few threads back (June 2):


    I have looked into the matter for you an dI can confirm that for the way we are interpreting as her exit date is the day that she formally steps down as Leader.

    Although Theresa May has announced that on June 7th she will resign, whilst unlikely as you have said, there is still a possibility that this won't go through. As this is the case, we will only settle once her replacement is confirmed and steps up to take the role instead of her.

    So if Theresa May announces her resignation on June 7th, which is expected, however her successor is announced at a later point, it would be the case that we settle on when she officially ceases to be a leader in any form.

    I hope this clears up any confusion for you.

    Let me know if there is anything else we can help with.

    Thanks,

    Francesca

    Betfair Customer Service Management
    -----------
    I had a bet on her leaving in June, but reading this made me think that if she is still caretaker leader until her replacement is chosen, so I cashed out rather than risk an unhelpful interpetation. The question is whether there is a period when she is no longer leader (having resigned) but there is no new leader yet. I tend to think it'll be July but I wouldn't bet the house on it.
    The rule is clear.

    When she ceases to be leader. They spell it out here "leader in any form".

    Acting Leader is still Leader. Whether it is permanent or acting is moot. The bet is when she ceases to be leader and if she is Acting Leader she has NOT ceased to be leader yet
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Katie Hopkins produces a new version of the Nazi Soviet pact https://twitter.com/KTHopkins/status/1135929423692259328?s=20

    Ribbentrop and Molotov are dead ;).
    Apparently so is satire. Tom Lehrer's on the phone... :(
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:
    OK, I give up. How do you hack What'sApp?
    Screenshots within the group?
    So one of the people in the What'sApp group is taking screenshots and leaking to the press.

    [facepalm]
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236
    GIN1138 said:

    When people say he could do an about turn and endorse remain or a second referendum I think it's just wishful thinking.

    I agree.

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236
    HYUFD said:

    Katie Hopkins produces a new version of the Nazi Soviet pact https://twitter.com/KTHopkins/status/1135929423692259328?s=20

    She's stolen their curtains... :)
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited June 2019


    If you want that then the easiest thing is to increase the number of council tax bands.

    You mean homes with bigger gardens in nice areas pay more tax?

    And you cannot of course do that unless you revalue every home in England to work out if they would make it to the higher bands.

    In 1991 no one wanted to live in Hackney - now its sought after. There are homes in Hackney which were worth nowt back then which are worth a million plus now so would move perhaps from band B to H and beyond. Its actually Hackney which would probably see the biggest rises of anywhere in London - because of how dramatically house prices have moved there.

    To do what you propose - everyone's property would have to be revalued anyway. You are going to break some eggs - so why not make a bigger and better omelette! And the current system is so regressive - particularly on lower earning renters who pay a disproportionate share of their income on council tax but derive no economic benefit from higher house prices.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:

    Katie Hopkins produces a new version of the Nazi Soviet pact https://twitter.com/KTHopkins/status/1135929423692259328?s=20

    She's stolen their curtains... :)
    That’s curtains for her then.



    .... hmm. Sorry 😲
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    GIN1138 said:

    Byronic said:

    See here for the full political catastrophe of the garden tax. A neutral website poses the question:

    "Labour’s Land Value Tax: will you have to sell your garden?"


    https://fullfact.org/economy/labours-land-value-tax-will-you-have-sell-your-garden/



    That is a query which no sane political party should ever want to invoke.

    EDIT: even the Daily Mirror is using the phrase "garden tax" -

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/what-labour-garden-tax-explained-10570908

    So it has been successfully framed as something horrid and evil. A total own goal.

    Yep and that's before we get on to the land and property grabs.

    My guess is that Boris will absolutely wipe the floor with Jezza in an autumn election. It will be such a mismatch as to be kind of embarrassing...
    Just worked it out, a 0.85% tax on property value would mean a £190 council tax increase for me..... Best of luck selling this policy down south though lol
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    kinabalu said:

    So, next election - Cons under Johnson offering Hard Brexit and Small State versus Lab under Corbyn offering Remain and Socialism.

    No hiding place.

    In the end Rich Remainers will go with Boris to protect their houses and gardens from being "grabbed" by Jezza! :D
    The absolute state of that garden tax idea - makes the Tories Dementia tax look a good idea.
    What's the garden tax idea ?
    The shocking communist proposal to, er, make council tax more closely related to the actual value of properties rather than notional values from the early 1990s, and to abolish the current principle of having a ceiling above which no extra can be paid however palatial the property.
    Whatever the rights and wrongs it will be a vote loser.
    Not among the c. 50% non-property owning population.
    The land/property stuff is a report of recommendations to Labour. Here:

    http://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/12081_19-Land-for-the-Many.pdf

    I shall be returning to this subject tomorrow I reckon when there are more of us about, but this jumped out at me straight off:

    "To provide a reasonable degree of stability for renters, particularly those with young children, we recommend that the permitted grounds for eviction within the first three years of a tenancy should be more limited than they are under the reformed system in Scotland, excluding, for instance, a right to repossess the property in order to renovate or sell."

    Going further than Scottish reforms.

    New tenants get 3 years, even if a landlord wants to sell (on open market - they can sell to another landlord).
    So you have a property you rent. You discover that husband has dementia and needs care. You want to terminate the tenancy and sell the house to fund his care. And you can’t?

    Really?

    Why bother renting?
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Byronic said:

    See here for the full political catastrophe of the garden tax. A neutral website poses the question:

    "Labour’s Land Value Tax: will you have to sell your garden?"


    https://fullfact.org/economy/labours-land-value-tax-will-you-have-sell-your-garden/



    That is a query which no sane political party should ever want to invoke.

    EDIT: even the Daily Mirror is using the phrase "garden tax" -

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/money/what-labour-garden-tax-explained-10570908

    So it has been successfully framed as something horrid and evil. A total own goal.

    Yep and that's before we get on to the land and property grabs.

    My guess is that Boris will absolutely wipe the floor with Jezza in an autumn election. It will be such a mismatch as to be kind of embarrassing...
    Just worked it out, a 0.85% tax on property value would mean a £190 council tax increase for me..... Best of luck selling this policy down south though lol
    Thanks to the Tory's stealth tax - passing the costs of austerity onto council taxpayers to fund policing and social care instead of more progressive central taxation - your councill tax has probably risen by £190 in the last couple of years anyway. None is as blind as those who cannot see beyond their garden shed!

  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited June 2019
    Cyclefree said:



    So you have a property you rent. You discover that husband has dementia and needs care. You want to terminate the tenancy and sell the house to fund his care. And you can’t?

    Really?

    Why bother renting?

    I love this latest sob story about buy to let landlords suddenly facing hardship due to getting dementia and being unable to fund their care. Almost beats the old lady living in a £5 million house she owns which she bought for a few grand who has no money - bar a £5 million house she can raise equity on!

    Seriously - stop!

    If you cannot sell the property immediately you can defer the social care charges anyway until you sell - it happens all the time. Its even less of a wrench for someone who owns multiple homes!

    What next - the proposed garden tax is so unfair as it will hit impoverished billionaire oligarchs and mean they have less money to buy premiership football clubs?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    brendan16 said:

    Cyclefree said:



    So you have a property you rent. You discover that husband has dementia and needs care. You want to terminate the tenancy and sell the house to fund his care. And you can’t?

    Really?

    Why bother renting?

    I love this latest sob story about buy to let landlords suddenly facing hardship due to getting dementia and being unable to fund their care. Almost beats the old lady living in a £5 million house she owns which she bought for a few grand who has no money - bar a £5 million house she can raise equity on!

    Seriously - stop!

    If you cannot sell the property immediately you can defer the social care charges anyway until you sell - it happens all the time. Its even less of a wrench for someone who owns multiple homes!

    What next - the proposed garden tax is so unfair as it will hit impoverished billionaire oligarchs and mean they have less money to buy premiership football clubs?
    Don’t be ridiculous. I was raising a circumstance which might well happen - when you need to sell a property for good reasons - but under these proposals, apparently, you wouldn't be able to.

    In general I’m in favour of having longer more stable tenancies. I grew up in rented property with a generally bad landlord so I’m in favour of making things better for tenants. But if you effectively cannot gain access to your property then the unintended consequences may well be that less property is made available for rent. The Osborne changes have already started the process. These proposals may add to that trend.

    I don’t own any rental properties but if I did I would think very hard about selling while I am still able to. That would have the result of releasing more properties for sale, which may well be a good thing. But it doesn’t help renters.

    As for equity release, these schemes are a mis-selling scandal in the making. Logically older people in large houses should down size: barriers are the lack of suitable smaller homes, the desire to have somewhere for grand-children to stay etc and emotional attachment to family homes and places where they are comfortable and have connections. Not everyone wants to move to a new area when they are old.

    Emotion matters. A policy that looks as if it’s being nasty to older people does not play well, whatever the logical reasons for it. Labour should understand this very well. It’s exactly the argument they used against the Tory dementia tax policy in 2017, very successfully. If it worked for them then it can just as easily work against them in the future.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Cyclefree said:

    As for equity release, these schemes are a mis-selling scandal in the making. Logically older people in large houses should down size: barriers are the lack of suitable smaller homes, the desire to have somewhere for grand-children to stay etc and emotional attachment to family homes and places where they are comfortable and have connections. Not everyone wants to move to a new area when they are old.

    The biggest barrier is that the transaction costs are huge. If you have £350,000 of equity in your property downsizing and freeing some of that sounds like a great idea.

    A great idea before you include moving costs, stamp duty, conveyancing, and estate agents fees.

    The current system discourages people from trading down. It therefore does not promote the efficient allocation of a scarce resource.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    rcs1000 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    As for equity release, these schemes are a mis-selling scandal in the making. Logically older people in large houses should down size: barriers are the lack of suitable smaller homes, the desire to have somewhere for grand-children to stay etc and emotional attachment to family homes and places where they are comfortable and have connections. Not everyone wants to move to a new area when they are old.

    The biggest barrier is that the transaction costs are huge. If you have £350,000 of equity in your property downsizing and freeing some of that sounds like a great idea.

    A great idea before you include moving costs, stamp duty, conveyancing, and estate agents fees.

    The current system discourages people from trading down. It therefore does not promote the efficient allocation of a scarce resource.
    Isn't there an inheritance tax advantage though? I think someone posted that it was more tax-efficient to sell up and give away the cash (and then live for seven years). (Wealth warning: I might have garbled this since I do not have a massive pile so was not really paying attention.)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    AndyJS said:
    I think it is only an issue just after sunset and before sunrise because they are low altitude, at least in terms of how bright they are. Just imagine 200 artificial stars moving through the sky as bright as the ones in Orion.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    HYUFD said:
    OK, I give up. How do you hack What'sApp?
    Screenshots within the group?
    So one of the people in the What'sApp group is taking screenshots and leaking to the press.

    [facepalm]
    So is this the Chuka/Heidi breakaway faction that wants to join (or take over) the LibDems, or is it the Soubry/Gapes still-ChUK faction?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Betting post: a Betfair user can make a few quid by backing Andrea Leadsom to be next PM at 12 and simultaneously laying her to be next Conservative leader at 11.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    You can get a 35% return with Betfair Exchange if you think New Zealand will beat Bangladesh tomorrow.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/cricket/market/1.159335903
This discussion has been closed.