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  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Doesn't suggest that all those tens of billions we've paid into the EU has done us much good then.

    Perhaps we're better off out of a club where we have no mates ?


    The EU are bullies and are abusing their existing (temporary) arrangements to try and take advantage of us. And still the remainers think they are the good guys.

    I am beginning to understand why some leavers think proroguing parliament and hard brexit are the only options.

    The Remainers are wondering what happened to “we hold all the cards”. Leavers are now snivelling about being bullied.

    Leavers weren't expecting May to flush them down the toilet.

    FFS - our hand was so strong that a nonentity like May could disrupt it? If only a true Leaver like Davis, Gove, Johnson or Leadsom had been in the cabinet!

    A true leaver like.... Gove?

    Seriously?

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Doesn't suggest that all those tens of billions we've paid into the EU has done us much good then.

    Perhaps we're better off out of a club where we have no mates ?


    The EU are bullies and are abusing their existing (temporary) arrangements to try and take advantage of us. And still the remainers think they are the good guys.

    I am beginning to understand why some leavers think proroguing parliament and hard brexit are the only options.

    The Remainers are wondering what happened to “we hold all the cards”. Leavers are now snivelling about being bullied.

    Leavers weren't expecting May to flush them down the toilet.

    Of course. It’s never ever ever Leavers’ fault.

    Thank you for acknowledging that.

    The snivelling self-pity from those who revelled in race-baiting and wonder why they couldn’t then unite the country behind them is remarkable.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969

    Doesn't suggest that all those tens of billions we've paid into the EU has done us much good then.

    Perhaps we're better off out of a club where we have no mates ?


    The EU are bullies and are abusing their existing (temporary) arrangements to try and take advantage of us. And still the remainers think they are the good guys.

    I am beginning to understand why some leavers think proroguing parliament and hard brexit are the only options.

    The Remainers are wondering what happened to “we hold all the cards”. Leavers are now snivelling about being bullied.

    Leavers weren't expecting May to flush them down the toilet.

    FFS - our hand was so strong that a nonentity like May could disrupt it? If only a true Leaver like Davis, Gove, Johnson or Leadsom had been in the cabinet!

    A true leaver like.... Gove?

    Seriously?

    So the head of Vote Leave isn't a true leaver?

    You lot really are a cult (sic)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761
    Scott_P said:
    Gove's goose appears to be coked.

    Heart of stone etc...

  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Doesn't suggest that all those tens of billions we've paid into the EU has done us much good then.

    Perhaps we're better off out of a club where we have no mates ?


    The EU are bullies and are abusing their existing (temporary) arrangements to try and take advantage of us. And still the remainers think they are the good guys.

    I am beginning to understand why some leavers think proroguing parliament and hard brexit are the only options.

    The Remainers are wondering what happened to “we hold all the cards”. Leavers are now snivelling about being bullied.

    Leavers weren't expecting May to flush them down the toilet.

    Of course. It’s never ever ever Leavers’ fault.

    Thank you for acknowledging that.

    The snivelling self-pity from those who revelled in race-baiting and wonder why they couldn’t then unite the country behind them is remarkable.

    I remember your articles from 2016 telling us how 'xenophobic' leave was not going to win.

    You were wrong then and wrong now.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Following Gove's admission, SeanT has just nominated himself for Tory leader
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    Doesn't suggest that all those tens of billions we've paid into the EU has done us much good then.

    Perhaps we're better off out of a club where we have no mates ?


    The EU are bullies and are abusing their existing (temporary) arrangements to try and take advantage of us. And still the remainers think they are the good guys.

    I am beginning to understand why some leavers think proroguing parliament and hard brexit are the only options.

    The Remainers are wondering what happened to “we hold all the cards”. Leavers are now snivelling about being bullied.

    Leavers weren't expecting May to flush them down the toilet.

    FFS - our hand was so strong that a nonentity like May could disrupt it? If only a true Leaver like Davis, Gove, Johnson or Leadsom had been in the cabinet!

    A true leaver like.... Gove?

    Seriously?

    You're saying the co-convener of Vote Leave was a closet Remainer?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited June 2019
    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:
    The people organising/attending the Straight Pride are so deep in the closet they are having adventures in Narnia.
    Are you suggesting they are lion about their sexuality?
    Gives me an excuse to post this from an EDL march.


  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Doesn't suggest that all those tens of billions we've paid into the EU has done us much good then.

    Perhaps we're better off out of a club where we have no mates ?


    The EU are bullies and are abusing their existing (temporary) arrangements to try and take advantage of us. And still the remainers think they are the good guys.

    I am beginning to understand why some leavers think proroguing parliament and hard brexit are the only options.

    The Remainers are wondering what happened to “we hold all the cards”. Leavers are now snivelling about being bullied.

    Leavers weren't expecting May to flush them down the toilet.

    FFS - our hand was so strong that a nonentity like May could disrupt it? If only a true Leaver like Davis, Gove, Johnson or Leadsom had been in the cabinet!

    A true leaver like.... Gove?

    Seriously?

    So the head of Vote Leave isn't a true leaver?

    You lot really are a cult (sic)

    At least Leavers believe in democracy.

  • sladeslade Posts: 1,921
    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    Out of interest what is the social background of the people who have never been offered drugs? I find it hard to believe many of them can have been at university or grown up in a city.

    I have spent more time in an university than most and I think I've never been offered them . In my limited experience, older people and people with STEM degrees just don't use them.

    Eight and a half years and the most exciting thing I was offered was a single malt.
    Me too - I was lured in to Glenfarclas.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:
    The people organising/attending the Straight Pride are so deep in the closet they are having adventures in Narnia.
    Are you suggesting they are lion about their sexuality?
    Gives me an excuse to post this from an EDL march.


    They are all worshippers of the White Witch?

    And I thought self-identified Jedi were a bit weird....
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If the Conservative and Unionist Party wishes to destroy itself it would be rude to stop it from doing so.

    You say that. But if the replacement is a wild set of bat-shit crazy loons who don't believe in parliamentary democracy but whacko voice of the public ideas, then the country is even more f-ed than I thought.

    Things just seem to be getting worse and worse.

    I wonder what the Queen thinks of what is being done to her realm.


    Boris actually is more of a 'global vision' Brexiteer rather than the English nationalism of say Farage or Bill Cash

    He would happily destroy the Union and dump all over the people of Northern Ireland to secure power. Just like all the other Tory leadership candidates with a chance of winning. He is a hard core English nationalist.

    Far from it, indeed Boris will go f voters want
    How does that ever pass Parliament? If they can’t amend the backstop to get the DUP on board then the only way out is going to be a new Parliament - so we get an election in the autumn.
    And somehow Boris wins that. Right. (A GE because he failed is not the same as a hypothetical poll saying he has a chance)
    Boris wins it comfortably, he gets a mandate for a GB FTA which is what most voters want
    Boris only wins if Nigel doesn't stand and there is zero chance of him not standing candidates...
    Nope, Boris has a 7% lead over Labour and the LDs even with Nigel, with the Brexit Party falling back to just 13% from 20%+ now


    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1136006739864825858?s=20

    Yougov was the only pollster to underestimate Labour for the EU elections - and the data is 10 days old now.
    The final YouGov for the Euro elections had Labour on 13% and the Tories on 7%.

    So while close to the final result YouGov actually underestimated the Tories more than it underestimated Labour given Labour got 14% and the Tories got 9%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/05/22/european-parliament-voting-intention-brex-37-lab-1
    Labour might expect a miniboost from holding Peterborough with a slightly increased majority. The result was also a 4% swing from Con to Lab compared with 2017.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    Doesn't suggest that all those tens of billions we've paid into the EU has done us much good then.

    Perhaps we're better off out of a club where we have no mates ?


    The EU are bullies and are abusing their existing (temporary) arrangements to try and take advantage of us. And still the remainers think they are the good guys.

    I am beginning to understand why some leavers think proroguing parliament and hard brexit are the only options.

    More Leave hysteria .

    Whining about being bullied is not a good look . It implies an acceptance that the UK is the weaker partner with the smaller economy which just happens to be true !

    Will you also be whining about the USA and Trump when they also bully the UK !

    Size matters ! It’s basic common sense and logic which admittedly seems in short supply for some Leavers .

    The UK is leaving the biggest trading block in the world , indeed no country in history has ever embarked on a course of action that removes it from its biggest trading partners .


  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969

    Doesn't suggest that all those tens of billions we've paid into the EU has done us much good then.

    Perhaps we're better off out of a club where we have no mates ?


    The EU are bullies and are abusing their existing (temporary) arrangements to try and take advantage of us. And still the remainers think they are the good guys.

    I am beginning to understand why some leavers think proroguing parliament and hard brexit are the only options.

    The Remainers are wondering what happened to “we hold all the cards”. Leavers are now snivelling about being bullied.

    Leavers weren't expecting May to flush them down the toilet.

    FFS - our hand was so strong that a nonentity like May could disrupt it? If only a true Leaver like Davis, Gove, Johnson or Leadsom had been in the cabinet!

    A true leaver like.... Gove?

    Seriously?

    So the head of Vote Leave isn't a true leaver?

    You lot really are a cult (sic)

    At least Leavers believe in democracy.

    It isn't democracy to campaign saying No Deal is Project Fear then turn around and say No Deal is the only true Brexit.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761

    Doesn't suggest that all those tens of billions we've paid into the EU has done us much good then.

    Perhaps we're better off out of a club where we have no mates ?


    The EU are bullies and are abusing their existing (temporary) arrangements to try and take advantage of us. And still the remainers think they are the good guys.

    I am beginning to understand why some leavers think proroguing parliament and hard brexit are the only options.

    The Remainers are wondering what happened to “we hold all the cards”. Leavers are now snivelling about being bullied.

    Leavers weren't expecting May to flush them down the toilet.

    FFS - our hand was so strong that a nonentity like May could disrupt it? If only a true Leaver like Davis, Gove, Johnson or Leadsom had been in the cabinet!

    A true leaver like.... Gove?

    Seriously?

    You're saying the co-convener of Vote Leave was a closet Remainer?
    In fairness, unlike Boris and the European Remainers Group he repeatedly voted for the Withdrawal Agreement.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:
    The people organising/attending the Straight Pride are so deep in the closet they are having adventures in Narnia.
    Are you suggesting they are lion about their sexuality?
    Gives me an excuse to post this from an EDL march.



    Since Aslan represents Jesus in the Narnia books, he may just have been an atheist...

  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Doesn't suggest that all those tens of billions we've paid into the EU has done us much good then.

    Perhaps we're better off out of a club where we have no mates ?


    The EU are bullies and are abusing their existing (temporary) arrangements to try and take advantage of us. And still the remainers think they are the good guys.

    I am beginning to understand why some leavers think proroguing parliament and hard brexit are the only options.

    The Remainers are wondering what happened to “we hold all the cards”. Leavers are now snivelling about being bullied.

    Leavers weren't expecting May to flush them down the toilet.

    FFS - our hand was so strong that a nonentity like May could disrupt it? If only a true Leaver like Davis, Gove, Johnson or Leadsom had been in the cabinet!

    A true leaver like.... Gove?

    Seriously?

    You're saying the co-convener of Vote Leave was a closet Remainer?

    Well, judging by this behaviour since then...


  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761

    ydoethur said:

    Pulpstar said:
    The people organising/attending the Straight Pride are so deep in the closet they are having adventures in Narnia.
    Are you suggesting they are lion about their sexuality?
    Gives me an excuse to post this from an EDL march.



    Since Aslan represents Jesus in the Narnia books, he may just have been an atheist...
    Or he may have been stoned?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Doesn't suggest that all those tens of billions we've paid into the EU has done us much good then.

    Perhaps we're better off out of a club where we have no mates ?


    The EU are bullies and are abusing their existing (temporary) arrangements to try and take advantage of us. And still the remainers think they are the good guys.

    I am beginning to understand why some leavers think proroguing parliament and hard brexit are the only options.

    The Remainers are wondering what happened to “we hold all the cards”. Leavers are now snivelling about being bullied.

    Leavers weren't expecting May to flush them down the toilet.

    Of course. It’s never ever ever Leavers’ fault.

    Thank you for acknowledging that.

    The snivelling self-pity from those who revelled in race-baiting and wonder why they couldn’t then unite the country behind them is remarkable.
    Bullies claiming to be the victims of bullying seems to be a leitmotiv of modern English society. When did a once-proud nation become a bunch of whiners?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    edited June 2019
    viewcode said:

    Out of interest what is the social background of the people who have never been offered drugs? I find it hard to believe many of them can have been at university or grown up in a city.

    I have spent more time in an university than most and I think I've never been offered them . In my limited experience, older people and people with STEM degrees just don't use them.

    I grew up in Copenhagen in the 60s and 70s and went to the local university and then to Birkbeck for my PhD. Never offered drugs or saw anyone obviously under the influence (but not sure I'd have known, really), though I remember a lecturer at a party comparing something to LSD and clearly assuming we'd know what LSD was like. Studied maths and mixed with a highly political circle - we saw the hippies of the time as self-indulgent wankers while we were busy changing the world. I take a more nuanced view nowadays (hey, having fun is OK too), but still haven't tried drugs.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    nico67 said:

    Doesn't suggest that all those tens of billions we've paid into the EU has done us much good then.

    Perhaps we're better off out of a club where we have no mates ?


    The EU are bullies and are abusing their existing (temporary) arrangements to try and take advantage of us. And still the remainers think they are the good guys.

    I am beginning to understand why some leavers think proroguing parliament and hard brexit are the only options.

    More Leave hysteria .

    Whining about being bullied is not a good look . It implies an acceptance that the UK is the weaker partner with the smaller economy which just happens to be true !

    Will you also be whining about the USA and Trump when they also bully the UK !

    Size matters ! It’s basic common sense and logic which admittedly seems in short supply for some Leavers .

    The UK is leaving the biggest trading block in the world , indeed no country in history has ever embarked on a course of action that removes it from its biggest trading partners .
    The Declaration of Independence, 1776?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,915
    Andrea Leadsom has just ruined cannabis for so many people. On a more serious note, so much stupid shit is talked about drugs. Alcohol is a much more destructive drug than most of the stuff people tie themselves in knots about, and nobody has a more fucked up relationship with drink than MPs and the meejia. I have absolutely no problem with Michael Gove doing coke a few times. I do have a problem with him robbing my children of their right to live, love and work across a continent of 350 million people.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    Mocking the Irish isn’t going to get the English anywhere. Nowadays they have lots of pals (27 to be exact) and England is Johnny No Mates.

    Doesn't suggest that all those tens of billions we've paid into the EU has done us much good then.

    Perhaps we're better off out of a club where we have no mates ?
    It was you guys that stormed off in a huff. Not them.

    I’m sure they’ll let you stay in the club if you get grovelling a bit, but don’t expect them to stop sniggering behind your backs for a few decades.
    The SNP view of the UK is that it should grovel and be sniggered at.

    Perhaps you think Scotland should adopt the same position within the UK ?
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    edited June 2019

    viewcode said:

    Out of interest what is the social background of the people who have never been offered drugs? I find it hard to believe many of them can have been at university or grown up in a city.

    I have spent more time in an university than most and I think I've never been offered them . In my limited experience, older people and people with STEM degrees just don't use them.

    I grew up in Copenhagen in the 60s and 70s and went to the local university and then to Birkbeck for my PhD. Never offered drugs or saw anyone obviously under the influence (but not sure I'd have known, really), though I remember a lecturer at a party comparing something to LSD and clearly assuming we'd know what LSD was like. Studied maths and mixed with a highly political circle - we saw the hippies of the time as self-indulgent wankers while we were busy changing the world. I take a more nuanced view nowadays (hey, having fun is OK too), but still haven't tried drugs.

    I haven't taken drugs either. Since SeanT left, it seems that the average amount of druggies on this forum has dropped drastically.

  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    Doesn't suggest that all those tens of billions we've paid into the EU has done us much good then.

    Perhaps we're better off out of a club where we have no mates ?


    The EU are bullies and are abusing their existing (temporary) arrangements to try and take advantage of us. And still the remainers think they are the good guys.

    I am beginning to understand why some leavers think proroguing parliament and hard brexit are the only options.

    The Remainers are wondering what happened to “we hold all the cards”. Leavers are now snivelling about being bullied.

    Leavers weren't expecting May to flush them down the toilet.

    Of course. It’s never ever ever Leavers’ fault.

    Thank you for acknowledging that.

    The snivelling self-pity from those who revelled in race-baiting and wonder why they couldn’t then unite the country behind them is remarkable.
    Bullies claiming to be the victims of bullying seems to be a leitmotiv of modern English society. When did a once-proud nation become a bunch of whiners?
    Agreed it’s embarrassing, some Leavers need to stop the whining and man up !

    They want to leave , then fine . Accept the consequences of leaving the worlds biggest trading block and make the best of begging for scraps from Trump .

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,751
    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    Which is my point too. You are taking the nationalist view of the border. But there is a different, unionist view, no less strongly held. So how do we reconcile the unreconcileable?

    To adapt the saw about the auld Irish lad giving directions to Brexit, I wouldn't start from here.
    Indeed no.

    I blame James VI and I.

    It was his stupid idea to settle all those Scots into Ulster...
    I believe it was a Tudor bright idea originally.

    Where the Welsh go, we all follow.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,915

    viewcode said:

    Out of interest what is the social background of the people who have never been offered drugs? I find it hard to believe many of them can have been at university or grown up in a city.

    I have spent more time in an university than most and I think I've never been offered them . In my limited experience, older people and people with STEM degrees just don't use them.

    I grew up in Copenhagen in the 60s and 70s and went to the local university and then to Birkbeck for my PhD. Never offered drugs or saw anyone obviously under the influence (but not sure I'd have known, really), though I remember a lecturer at a party comparing something to LSD and clearly assuming we'd know what LSD was like. Studied maths and mixed with a highly political circle - we saw the hippies of the time as self-indulgent wankers while we were busy changing the world. I take a more nuanced view nowadays (hey, having fun is OK too), but still haven't tried drugs.

    I haven't taken drugs either. Since SeanT left, it seems that that average amount of druggies on this forum has dropped drastically.

    I have taken drugs. I had a great time. I did not die.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697

    I have absolutely no problem with Michael Gove doing coke a few times. I do have a problem with him robbing my children of their right to live, love and work across a continent of 350 million people.

    How would feel if it turned out he was coked up when he campaigned for LEAVE? :D
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    Andrea Leadsom has just ruined cannabis for so many people. On a more serious note, so much stupid shit is talked about drugs. Alcohol is a much more destructive drug than most of the stuff people tie themselves in knots about, and nobody has a more fucked up relationship with drink than MPs and the meejia. I have absolutely no problem with Michael Gove doing coke a few times. I do have a problem with him robbing my children of their right to live, love and work across a continent of 350 million people.

    Well said . Post of the day .
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2019
    Scott_P said:
    So in that thread he is quoted about people turning to liberalisation for fear of being branded a hypocrite, but then says there are worse things than being a hypocrite . . . And as a result he is being called a hypocrite.

    He seems to be being quite consistent then in that respect (!)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    Which is my point too. You are taking the nationalist view of the border. But there is a different, unionist view, no less strongly held. So how do we reconcile the unreconcileable?

    To adapt the saw about the auld Irish lad giving directions to Brexit, I wouldn't start from here.
    Indeed no.

    I blame James VI and I.

    It was his stupid idea to settle all those Scots into Ulster...
    I believe it was a Tudor bright idea originally.

    Where the Welsh go, we all follow.
    Well, we are naturally far superior to all other races. And it was of course the Earl of Pembroke who first led colonisation in Ireland in 1169.

    But the official plantations in Ulster began in 1609.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    nico67 said:

    Doesn't suggest that all those tens of billions we've paid into the EU has done us much good then.

    Perhaps we're better off out of a club where we have no mates ?


    The EU are bullies and are abusing their existing (temporary) arrangements to try and take advantage of us. And still the remainers think they are the good guys.

    I am beginning to understand why some leavers think proroguing parliament and hard brexit are the only options.

    More Leave hysteria .

    Whining about being bullied is not a good look . It implies an acceptance that the UK is the weaker partner with the smaller economy which just happens to be true !

    Will you also be whining about the USA and Trump when they also bully the UK !

    Size matters ! It’s basic common sense and logic which admittedly seems in short supply for some Leavers .

    The UK is leaving the biggest trading block in the world , indeed no country in history has ever embarked on a course of action that removes it from its biggest trading partners .


    Leaving the EU does not mean stopping trading with the individual countries.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761

    viewcode said:

    Out of interest what is the social background of the people who have never been offered drugs? I find it hard to believe many of them can have been at university or grown up in a city.

    I have spent more time in an university than most and I think I've never been offered them . In my limited experience, older people and people with STEM degrees just don't use them.

    I grew up in Copenhagen in the 60s and 70s and went to the local university and then to Birkbeck for my PhD. Never offered drugs or saw anyone obviously under the influence (but not sure I'd have known, really), though I remember a lecturer at a party comparing something to LSD and clearly assuming we'd know what LSD was like. Studied maths and mixed with a highly political circle - we saw the hippies of the time as self-indulgent wankers while we were busy changing the world. I take a more nuanced view nowadays (hey, having fun is OK too), but still haven't tried drugs.

    I haven't taken drugs either. Since SeanT left, it seems that that average amount of druggies on this forum has dropped drastically.

    I have taken drugs. I had a great time. I did not die.
    Your username would be somewhat anachronistic if you had.

    But does it imply all the other boys did?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840

    Was Gove off his tits on coke when he said if we voted to Leave we would hold all the cards?

    It would explain a great many things.

    "We've had enough of experts". Cos I'm snowed off my trolley and therefore know everything.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,915
    GIN1138 said:

    I have absolutely no problem with Michael Gove doing coke a few times. I do have a problem with him robbing my children of their right to live, love and work across a continent of 350 million people.

    How would feel if it turned out he was coked up when he campaigned for LEAVE? :D
    Quote a lot about Michael Gove would make more sense if he were off his head on coke. Unfortunately I think he is just naturally a cock.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    Which is my point too. You are taking the nationalist view of the border. But there is a different, unionist view, no less strongly held. So how do we reconcile the unreconcileable?

    To adapt the saw about the auld Irish lad giving directions to Brexit, I wouldn't start from here.
    Indeed no.

    I blame James VI and I.

    It was his stupid idea to settle all those Scots into Ulster...
    I believe it was a Tudor bright idea originally.

    Where the Welsh go, we all follow.
    The Welsh just speak as though they're putting on bad Indian accents :)
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,915
    ydoethur said:

    viewcode said:

    Out of interest what is the social background of the people who have never been offered drugs? I find it hard to believe many of them can have been at university or grown up in a city.

    I have spent more time in an university than most and I think I've never been offered them . In my limited experience, older people and people with STEM degrees just don't use them.

    I grew up in Copenhagen in the 60s and 70s and went to the local university and then to Birkbeck for my PhD. Never offered drugs or saw anyone obviously under the influence (but not sure I'd have known, really), though I remember a lecturer at a party comparing something to LSD and clearly assuming we'd know what LSD was like. Studied maths and mixed with a highly political circle - we saw the hippies of the time as self-indulgent wankers while we were busy changing the world. I take a more nuanced view nowadays (hey, having fun is OK too), but still haven't tried drugs.

    I haven't taken drugs either. Since SeanT left, it seems that that average amount of druggies on this forum has dropped drastically.

    I have taken drugs. I had a great time. I did not die.
    Your username would be somewhat anachronistic if you had.

    But does it imply all the other boys did?
    I cannot speak for the other boys.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    I was far too scared to do drugs.

    Plus I didn't need drugs to have a good time.

    #GoodMuslimBoy
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    Which is my point too. You are taking the nationalist view of the border. But there is a different, unionist view, no less strongly held. So how do we reconcile the unreconcileable?

    To adapt the saw about the auld Irish lad giving directions to Brexit, I wouldn't start from here.
    Indeed no.

    I blame James VI and I.

    It was his stupid idea to settle all those Scots into Ulster...
    I believe it was a Tudor bright idea originally.

    Where the Welsh go, we all follow.
    The Welsh just speak as though they're putting on bad Indian accents :)
    Never knew you were a fan of The Two Ronnies, Sunil.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    Which is my point too. You are taking the nationalist view of the border. But there is a different, unionist view, no less strongly held. So how do we reconcile the unreconcileable?

    To adapt the saw about the auld Irish lad giving directions to Brexit, I wouldn't start from here.
    Indeed no.

    I blame James VI and I.

    It was his stupid idea to settle all those Scots into Ulster...
    I believe it was a Tudor bright idea originally.

    Where the Welsh go, we all follow.
    Well, we are naturally far superior to all other races. And it was of course the Earl of Pembroke who first led colonisation in Ireland in 1169.

    But the official plantations in Ulster began in 1609.
    First the Norman-Welsh, then the Spanish (Philip and Mary Tudor), then the Scots.

    And its England which gets the blame.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    You need to read this entire tweet thread

    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1137410502697586688
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    FF43 said:

    Technically, yes. But the Irish border isn't mainly a technical border. It's a state of mind. It means completely different things to the communities it affects. For Protestant unionists the border is the necessary bulwark that creates a piece of Britain in Ireland and a safe space for them...

    As an English European, I find being co-opted by unionist Brexiteers into an identity which is antagonistic to Europe to be deeply offensive. They should stop clinging to England's coattails.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    Which is my point too. You are taking the nationalist view of the border. But there is a different, unionist view, no less strongly held. So how do we reconcile the unreconcileable?

    To adapt the saw about the auld Irish lad giving directions to Brexit, I wouldn't start from here.
    Indeed no.

    I blame James VI and I.

    It was his stupid idea to settle all those Scots into Ulster...
    I believe it was a Tudor bright idea originally.

    Where the Welsh go, we all follow.
    The Welsh just speak as though they're putting on bad Indian accents :)
    Never knew you were a fan of The Two Ronnies, Sunil.
    Search your feelings, ydoethur. You will know it to be true! :lol:
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,415
    There are many laws and indeed rules in life and society that perhaps need to be there but which nearly everyone breaks . If you are unlucky you get caught and perhaps prosecuted . I suppose the sensible way for a society is not be too hard on those that are unlucky enough to be caught .
    For instance I have taken very occasionally cannabis when I was at university decades ago and since I passed my drivign test in the 30 odds years of having a license have certainly and repeatedly speeded , jumped numerous red lights and 99.9% of the time got away with it . I have also on about 5 occasions drunk more than the driving limit and driven- It happens and if most humans were honest there is nobody who never breaks some laws .
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited June 2019
    Was about to post which is the biggest national embarrassment?

    I) Fans of the England football team

    II) The Scottish football team
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Mocking the Irish isn’t going to get the English anywhere. Nowadays they have lots of pals (27 to be exact) and England is Johnny No Mates.

    Doesn't suggest that all those tens of billions we've paid into the EU has done us much good then.

    Perhaps we're better off out of a club where we have no mates ?
    It was you guys that stormed off in a huff. Not them.

    I’m sure they’ll let you stay in the club if you get grovelling a bit, but don’t expect them to stop sniggering behind your backs for a few decades.
    IF you ever win your referendum will be fun to see how you get on.

    Big if though
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922
    edited June 2019

    There are many laws and indeed rules in life and society that perhaps need to be there but which nearly everyone breaks . If you are unlucky you get caught and perhaps prosecuted . I suppose the sensible way for a society is not be too hard on those that are unlucky enough to be caught .
    For instance I have taken very occasionally cannabis when I was at university decades ago and since I passed my drivign test in the 30 odds years of having a license have certainly and repeatedly speeded , jumped numerous red lights and 99.9% of the time got away with it . I have also on about 5 occasions drunk more than the driving limit and driven- It happens and if most humans were honest there is nobody who never breaks some laws .

    "Yes, cannabis is dangerous, but no more than other perfectly legal drugs. It's time for a rethink, and the Tory party - the funkiest, most jiving party on Earth - is where it's happening."
    - Boris, in the Daily Telegraph, 12 July 2001.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    I was far too scared to do drugs.

    Plus I didn't need drugs to have a good time.

    #GoodMuslimBoy

    Jermaine Stewart sang that we don’t have to take our clothes off to have a good time, but since he died of AIDS, I think he might have been fibbing.

    I did a bit of weed when I was younger but nothing else. I would only need to make one phone call to get coke, crystal meth, ecstasy or weed. I have no desire to do so. I’m boring enough without requiring additional help.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    Was about to post which is the biggest national embarrassment?

    I) Fans of the England football team

    II) The Scottish football team

    Some England fans . The Scottish fans don’t go around shaming their own nation .
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    nico67 said:

    Was about to post which is the biggest national embarrassment?

    I) Fans of the England football team

    II) The Scottish football team

    Some England fans . The Scottish fans don’t go around shaming their own nation .
    They leave that to the players.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    edited June 2019
    Sergeant Ruth.

    image
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Ignoring, for the moment, any moral issues, its extraordinary a substantial organisation felt the best approach was to settle matters informally in such a way. For the benefit of all, including those who might be accused and yet be innocent, you surely have to be more thorough and formal about things. Even when things can be resolved through alternative means, if that was appropriate and accepted, things need to be done properly which does not seem the case here.

    But we had the faux internal outrage over this issue a month or so ago, we're not due another bout of hand wringing for another couple of months.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    nico67 said:

    Was about to post which is the biggest national embarrassment?

    I) Fans of the England football team

    II) The Scottish football team

    Some England fans . The Scottish fans don’t go around shaming their own nation .
    Let me introduce you to the fans of the Old Firm.

    It is always a mystery to me that the nation that produces the wonderful and peerless Tartan Army can also produce the Old Firm fans.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited June 2019

    There are many laws and indeed rules in life and society that perhaps need to be there but which nearly everyone breaks . If you are unlucky you get caught and perhaps prosecuted . I suppose the sensible way for a society is not be too hard on those that are unlucky enough to be caught .
    For instance I have taken very occasionally cannabis when I was at university decades ago and since I passed my drivign test in the 30 odds years of having a license have certainly and repeatedly speeded , jumped numerous red lights and 99.9% of the time got away with it . I have also on about 5 occasions drunk more than the driving limit and driven- It happens and if most humans were honest there is nobody who never breaks some laws .

    "Yes, cannabis is dangerous, but no more than other perfectly legal drugs. It's time for a rethink, and the Tory party - the funkiest, most jiving party on Earth - is where it's happening."
    - Boris, in the Daily Telegraph, 12 July 2001.
    I don't know about legalizing drugs but hopefully Boris will bring an end to all the nannying and puritanism that's been going on under Cameron and especially May...

    He is fat and sex mad after all :D
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969

    I was far too scared to do drugs.

    Plus I didn't need drugs to have a good time.

    #GoodMuslimBoy

    Jermaine Stewart sang that we don’t have to take our clothes off to have a good time, but since he died of AIDS, I think he might have been fibbing.

    I did a bit of weed when I was younger but nothing else. I would only need to make one phone call to get coke, crystal meth, ecstasy or weed. I have no desire to do so. I’m boring enough without requiring additional help.
    I was offered some cocaine at university, honestly it was a fiasco, I did not know if I was supposed to smoke it or what.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Scott_P said:
    He seems to be struggling to keep up with Gove and Hunt for the prize position of losing to Boris. Is there any reason to think those who will drop out of the race early won't see their supporters split relatively proportionally among the leading contenders? As unless the Saj picks up most of them he will find it difficult.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,415
    Quite like Michael Gove in the sense he gets things done. Dominic Raab would be OK in my eyes normally but once for work I did occasion to pass through his offices in the Ministry Of Justice and saw a 'Team Raab' A4 paper stuck to the wall. Its was very David Brent!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited June 2019
    Ah So that's why the Iron Saj came out with the whole no more referendums for Scotland line.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    Which is my point too. You are taking the nationalist view of the border. But there is a different, unionist view, no less strongly held. So how do we reconcile the unreconcileable?

    To adapt the saw about the auld Irish lad giving directions to Brexit, I wouldn't start from here.
    Indeed no.

    I blame James VI and I.

    It was his stupid idea to settle all those Scots into Ulster...
    I believe it was a Tudor bright idea originally.

    Where the Welsh go, we all follow.
    Well, we are naturally far superior to all other races. And it was of course the Earl of Pembroke who first led colonisation in Ireland in 1169.

    But the official plantations in Ulster began in 1609.
    First the Norman-Welsh, then the Spanish (Philip and Mary Tudor), then the Scots.

    And its England which gets the blame.
    I think it's fair to say Elizabeth I was English. Of her great-grandparents, one was half-Welsh and half-French (Edmund Tudor) three were English with some French ancestry (Margaret Beaufort, Edward IV, the Countess of Wiltshire) one was half-English and half-Burgundian (Elizabeth Woodville) one was Irish (Margaret Butler) and the rest were unabashedly English (Thomas Boleyn, Elizabeth Tilney, Thomas Howard).

    So you can't really blame us for her.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Doesn't suggest that all those tens of billions we've paid into the EU has done us much good then.

    Perhaps we're better off out of a club where we have no mates ?


    The EU are bullies and are abusing their existing (temporary) arrangements to try and take advantage of us. And still the remainers think they are the good guys.

    I am beginning to understand why some leavers think proroguing parliament and hard brexit are the only options.

    The Remainers are wondering what happened to “we hold all the cards”. Leavers are now snivelling about being bullied.

    Leavers weren't expecting May to flush them down the toilet.

    Of course. It’s never ever ever Leavers’ fault.
    Bill Bryson, in his basically autobiographical, “Thunderbolt Kid” writes on the red scare and the HUAC, “It was an especially wonderful time to be a noisy moron.”

    A phrase which is endlessly reusable wrt Brexit and the Faragists.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    I was far too scared to do drugs.

    Plus I didn't need drugs to have a good time.

    #GoodMuslimBoy

    While I have missed out on much general social enjoyment as a result of timidity and passivity, one thing I don't regret is not feeling any temptation to take drugs. Sure I know plenty who smoked weed and get by just fine, but I don't think I'm missing much on that front.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    Which is my point too. You are taking the nationalist view of the border. But there is a different, unionist view, no less strongly held. So how do we reconcile the unreconcileable?

    To adapt the saw about the auld Irish lad giving directions to Brexit, I wouldn't start from here.
    Indeed no.

    I blame James VI and I.

    It was his stupid idea to settle all those Scots into Ulster...
    I believe it was a Tudor bright idea originally.

    Where the Welsh go, we all follow.
    Well, we are naturally far superior to all other races. And it was of course the Earl of Pembroke who first led colonisation in Ireland in 1169.

    But the official plantations in Ulster began in 1609.
    First the Norman-Welsh, then the Spanish (Philip and Mary Tudor), then the Scots.

    And its England which gets the blame.
    I think it's fair to say Elizabeth I was English. Of her great-grandparents, one was half-Welsh and half-French (Edmund Tudor) three were English with some French ancestry (Margaret Beaufort, Edward IV, the Countess of Wiltshire) one was half-English and half-Burgundian (Elizabeth Woodville) one was Irish (Margaret Butler) and the rest were unabashedly English (Thomas Boleyn, Elizabeth Tilney, Thomas Howard).

    So you can't really blame us for her.
    We can blame the French.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    Which is my point too. You are taking the nationalist view of the border. But there is a different, unionist view, no less strongly held. So how do we reconcile the unreconcileable?

    To adapt the saw about the auld Irish lad giving directions to Brexit, I wouldn't start from here.
    Indeed no.

    I blame James VI and I.

    It was his stupid idea to settle all those Scots into Ulster...
    I believe it was a Tudor bright idea originally.

    Where the Welsh go, we all follow.
    Well, we are naturally far superior to all other races. And it was of course the Earl of Pembroke who first led colonisation in Ireland in 1169.

    But the official plantations in Ulster began in 1609.
    First the Norman-Welsh, then the Spanish (Philip and Mary Tudor), then the Scots.

    And its England which gets the blame.
    I think it's fair to say Elizabeth I was English. Of her great-grandparents, one was half-Welsh and half-French (Edmund Tudor) three were English with some French ancestry (Margaret Beaufort, Edward IV, the Countess of Wiltshire) one was half-English and half-Burgundian (Elizabeth Woodville) one was Irish (Margaret Butler) and the rest were unabashedly English (Thomas Boleyn, Elizabeth Tilney, Thomas Howard).

    So you can't really blame us for her.
    We can blame the French.
    Well, we can blame the French for everything.

    I mean, they started it all under the Angevin empire.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    Which is my point too. You are taking the nationalist view of the border. But there is a different, unionist view, no less strongly held. So how do we reconcile the unreconcileable?

    To adapt the saw about the auld Irish lad giving directions to Brexit, I wouldn't start from here.
    Indeed no.

    I blame James VI and I.

    It was his stupid idea to settle all those Scots into Ulster...
    I believe it was a Tudor bright idea originally.

    Where the Welsh go, we all follow.
    Well, we are naturally far superior to all other races. And it was of course the Earl of Pembroke who first led colonisation in Ireland in 1169.

    But the official plantations in Ulster began in 1609.
    First the Norman-Welsh, then the Spanish (Philip and Mary Tudor), then the Scots.

    And its England which gets the blame.
    I think it's fair to say Elizabeth I was English. Of her great-grandparents, one was half-Welsh and half-French (Edmund Tudor) three were English with some French ancestry (Margaret Beaufort, Edward IV, the Countess of Wiltshire) one was half-English and half-Burgundian (Elizabeth Woodville) one was Irish (Margaret Butler) and the rest were unabashedly English (Thomas Boleyn, Elizabeth Tilney, Thomas Howard).

    So you can't really blame us for her.
    But she didn't name Irish counties after herself as Mary and Philip had done.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    Chris Grayling is backing Boris for leader.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043

    Sergeant Ruth.

    image

    Well, interesting...
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Scott_P said:
    More guff from Bozo !

    The 39 billion is split between commitments made whilst the UK was a member and money for the transition .

    No deal and you still pay at least half that bill . The EU will tell him to do one !
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Scott_P said:
    Is the transition period shortening with the Brexit delay ?

    And if so doesn't that make the fees payable for that period reduce ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    viewcode said:

    Out of interest what is the social background of the people who have never been offered drugs? I find it hard to believe many of them can have been at university or grown up in a city.

    I have spent more time in an university than most and I think I've never been offered them . In my limited experience, older people and people with STEM degrees just don't use them.

    I grew up in Copenhagen in the 60s and 70s and went to the local university and then to Birkbeck for my PhD. Never offered drugs or saw anyone obviously under the influence (but not sure I'd have known, really), though I remember a lecturer at a party comparing something to LSD and clearly assuming we'd know what LSD was like. Studied maths and mixed with a highly political circle - we saw the hippies of the time as self-indulgent wankers while we were busy changing the world. I take a more nuanced view nowadays (hey, having fun is OK too), but still haven't tried drugs.

    I haven't taken drugs either. Since SeanT left, it seems that that average amount of druggies on this forum has dropped drastically.

    I have taken drugs. I had a great time. I did not die.
    Politicians seem a bit stuck on the issue because everyone sensible knows that a great many people will be like you, having taken drugs, enjoyed it, and just moved on with their lives, and particularly with things like weed the idea no frontline politicians have ever tried it would not be believed, so the truth will out. But it is still illegal and severely frowned on, particularly the harder stuff, so they not only criticise their own drug use, they have to appear regretful as if they don't it would appear to suggest they are ok with others doing as they did.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,751
    edited June 2019

    Sergeant Ruth.

    image

    'Which also ran candidate to be is the most boring & has the least baggage so I won't feel too much embarrassment at having backed them?'
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    Which is my point too. You are taking the nationalist view of the border. But there is a different, unionist view, no less strongly held. So how do we reconcile the unreconcileable?

    To adapt the saw about the auld Irish lad giving directions to Brexit, I wouldn't start from here.
    Indeed no.

    I blame James VI and I.

    It was his stupid idea to settle all those Scots into Ulster...
    I believe it was a Tudor bright idea originally.

    Where the Welsh go, we all follow.
    Well, we are naturally far superior to all other races. And it was of course the Earl of Pembroke who first led colonisation in Ireland in 1169.

    But the official plantations in Ulster began in 1609.
    First the Norman-Welsh, then the Spanish (Philip and Mary Tudor), then the Scots.

    And its England which gets the blame.
    I think it's fair to say Elizabeth I was English. Of her great-grandparents, one was half-Welsh and half-French (Edmund Tudor) three were English with some French ancestry (Margaret Beaufort, Edward IV, the Countess of Wiltshire) one was half-English and half-Burgundian (Elizabeth Woodville) one was Irish (Margaret Butler) and the rest were unabashedly English (Thomas Boleyn, Elizabeth Tilney, Thomas Howard).

    So you can't really blame us for her.
    But she didn't name Irish counties after herself as Mary and Philip had done.
    On the other hand, she was the inspiration for the State of Virginia.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004

    Chris Grayling is backing Boris for leader.

    Poor Boris
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761

    Chris Grayling is backing Boris for leader.

    If I could be assured Gove won't be second in the leadership ballot that would be the best news I've heard in weeks.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited June 2019

    Andrea Leadsom has just ruined cannabis for so many people. On a more serious note, so much stupid shit is talked about drugs. Alcohol is a much more destructive drug than most of the stuff people tie themselves in knots about, and nobody has a more fucked up relationship with drink than MPs and the meejia. I have absolutely no problem with Michael Gove doing coke a few times. I do have a problem with him robbing my children of their right to live, love and work across a continent of 350 million people.

    Nobody was robbed of anything, there was a vote, which can and might well be reversed, but even if it wasn't there was no robbing, unless you think anything that ever happens after a vote is robbing those who did not have a vote, or that the votes of young people are worth more. You undermine every point you made with that childish remark.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    US travel ban for Gove !
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    Which is my point too. You are taking the nationalist view of the border. But there is a different, unionist view, no less strongly held. So how do we reconcile the unreconcileable?

    To adapt the saw about the auld Irish lad giving directions to Brexit, I wouldn't start from here.
    Indeed no.

    I blame James VI and I.

    It was his stupid idea to settle all those Scots into Ulster...
    I believe it was a Tudor bright idea originally.

    Where the Welsh go, we all follow.
    Well, we are naturally far superior to all other races. And it was of course the Earl of Pembroke who first led colonisation in Ireland in 1169.

    But the official plantations in Ulster began in 1609.
    First the Norman-Welsh, then the Spanish (Philip and Mary Tudor), then the Scots.

    And its England which gets the blame.
    I think it's fair to say Elizabeth I was English. Of her great-grandparents, one was half-Welsh and half-French (Edmund Tudor) three were English with some French ancestry (Margaret Beaufort, Edward IV, the Countess of Wiltshire) one was half-English and half-Burgundian (Elizabeth Woodville) one was Irish (Margaret Butler) and the rest were unabashedly English (Thomas Boleyn, Elizabeth Tilney, Thomas Howard).

    So you can't really blame us for her.
    But she didn't name Irish counties after herself as Mary and Philip had done.
    Which counties?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    edited June 2019
    Scott_P said:

    Gove: I'll scrap VAT after Brexit

    A completely pointless way to make the tax system part of the culture war. Expect to see the usual suspects to suddenly start explaining why "Australian" GST is superior to "European" VAT.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    How likely is it that Grieve, Greening, Lee & Gyimah will resign Tory Whip in event of Johnson becoming Tory leader? Were that to occur together with a by election being called for Brecon & Radnor , Tory strength would be down to 308 MPs - very similar to what Cameron faced in 2010. Corbyn would surely table a VNOC.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    nico67 said:

    Scott_P said:
    More guff from Bozo !

    The 39 billion is split between commitments made whilst the UK was a member and money for the transition .

    No deal and you still pay at least half that bill . The EU will tell him to do one !
    He is playing to his support but if he refuses to pay how do you expect the EU to force payment and how many years in international litigation

    Not that I agree with him as it opens wider problems on trust
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    Which is my point too. You are taking the nationalist view of the border. But there is a different, unionist view, no less strongly held. So how do we reconcile the unreconcileable?

    To adapt the saw about the auld Irish lad giving directions to Brexit, I wouldn't start from here.
    Indeed no.

    I blame James VI and I.

    It was his stupid idea to settle all those Scots into Ulster...
    I believe it was a Tudor bright idea originally.

    Where the Welsh go, we all follow.
    Well, we are naturally far superior to all other races. And it was of course the Earl of Pembroke who first led colonisation in Ireland in 1169.

    But the official plantations in Ulster began in 1609.
    First the Norman-Welsh, then the Spanish (Philip and Mary Tudor), then the Scots.

    And its England which gets the blame.
    I think it's fair to say Elizabeth I was English. Of her great-grandparents, one was half-Welsh and half-French (Edmund Tudor) three were English with some French ancestry (Margaret Beaufort, Edward IV, the Countess of Wiltshire) one was half-English and half-Burgundian (Elizabeth Woodville) one was Irish (Margaret Butler) and the rest were unabashedly English (Thomas Boleyn, Elizabeth Tilney, Thomas Howard).

    So you can't really blame us for her.
    But she didn't name Irish counties after herself as Mary and Philip had done.
    Which counties?
    Laois and Offaly - officially Queen's County and King's County.

    Although they're titles rather than names.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    ydoethur said:

    Chris Grayling is backing Boris for leader.

    If I could be assured Gove won't be second in the leadership ballot that would be the best news I've heard in weeks.
    Will you ever forgive me if I vote for Gove?

    I fear I will be excommunicated by David Cameron.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    nico67 said:

    Doesn't suggest that all those tens of billions we've paid into the EU has done us much good then.

    Perhaps we're better off out of a club where we have no mates ?


    The EU are bullies and are abusing their existing (temporary) arrangements to try and take advantage of us. And still the remainers think they are the good guys.

    I am beginning to understand why some leavers think proroguing parliament and hard brexit are the only options.

    More Leave hysteria .

    Whining about being bullied is not a good look . It implies an acceptance that the UK is the weaker partner with the smaller economy which just happens to be true !

    Will you also be whining about the USA and Trump when they also bully the UK !

    Size matters ! It’s basic common sense and logic which admittedly seems in short supply for some Leavers .

    The UK is leaving the biggest trading block in the world , indeed no country in history has ever embarked on a course of action that removes it from its biggest trading partners .
    The Declaration of Independence, 1776?
    Um, one of the Americans’ biggest complaints was that they couldn’t trade freely with the rest of the Americas but it all had to go via England.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    nico67 said:

    Scott_P said:
    More guff from Bozo !

    The 39 billion is split between commitments made whilst the UK was a member and money for the transition .

    No deal and you still pay at least half that bill . The EU will tell him to do one !
    I seem to recall some of the Brexiteers revealed they did not know what the transition even was, since they felt it would apply in a no deal situation, is Boris one of those?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    Which is my point too. You are taking the nationalist view of the border. But there is a different, unionist view, no less strongly held. So how do we reconcile the unreconcileable?

    To adapt the saw about the auld Irish lad giving directions to Brexit, I wouldn't start from here.
    Indeed no.

    I blame James VI and I.

    It was his stupid idea to settle all those Scots into Ulster...
    I believe it was a Tudor bright idea originally.

    Where the Welsh go, we all follow.
    Well, we are naturally far superior to all other races. And it was of course the Earl of Pembroke who first led colonisation in Ireland in 1169.

    But the official plantations in Ulster began in 1609.
    First the Norman-Welsh, then the Spanish (Philip and Mary Tudor), then the Scots.

    And its England which gets the blame.
    I think it's fair to say Elizabeth I was English. Of her great-grandparents, one was half-Welsh and half-French (Edmund Tudor) three were English with some French ancestry (Margaret Beaufort, Edward IV, the Countess of Wiltshire) one was half-English and half-Burgundian (Elizabeth Woodville) one was Irish (Margaret Butler) and the rest were unabashedly English (Thomas Boleyn, Elizabeth Tilney, Thomas Howard).

    So you can't really blame us for her.
    But she didn't name Irish counties after herself as Mary and Philip had done.
    Which counties?
    Laois and Offaly - officially Queen's County and King's County.

    Although they're titles rather than names.
    So they didn't actually name them after themselves?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Gove clearly in a post-marching powder-snorting binge panic.

    Tells Telegraph he wants to scrap VAT (which the paper appears to claim is only there because of the EU (er, Geoff Howe anyone???)).

    And HS2 will be gone.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761

    ydoethur said:

    Chris Grayling is backing Boris for leader.

    If I could be assured Gove won't be second in the leadership ballot that would be the best news I've heard in weeks.
    Will you ever forgive me if I vote for Gove?

    I fear I will be excommunicated by David Cameron.
    No.

    But if the alternative is Raab I will at least understand why you did it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Would Rory the Tory be allowed into the USA after his admission of smoking opium at an Iranian wedding ?
    I can't imagine anything more likely to raise the ire of a border official there !
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    justin124 said:

    How likely is it that Grieve, Greening, Lee & Gyimah will resign Tory Whip in event of Johnson becoming Tory leader? Were that to occur together with a by election being called for Brecon & Radnor , Tory strength would be down to 308 MPs - very similar to what Cameron faced in 2010. Corbyn would surely table a VNOC.

    No one has a clue how this plays out and even if Corbyn wins a vonc any GE is highly unpredictable
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Was Gove off his tits on coke when he said if we voted to Leave we would hold all the cards?

    It would explain a great many things.

    No, that one escapes being a lie (if one is very generous, considering he is far from stupid and cannot claim he was merely wrong) only on the basis that it was not a literal metaphor. But that's pretty slim, it was part of what is common politically (particularly as the public punish the reverse), that is to say pretending things will be easy when in fact they will be hard.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547
    edited June 2019
    Interesting. Johnson appears to be going out of his way to goad the EU into not offering an extension. He doesn't accept the EU has any legitimate claim at all, nor is he serious about negotiation. He doesn't need to do this to pander to his base and it's actually counterproductive for winning over MPs. My guess is that he wants the EU to impose a No Deal and he doesn't get the blame. He wants to scorch the earth but not too be seen to be doing it.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    justin124 said:

    How likely is it that Grieve, Greening, Lee & Gyimah will resign Tory Whip in event of Johnson becoming Tory leader? Were that to occur together with a by election being called for Brecon & Radnor , Tory strength would be down to 308 MPs - very similar to what Cameron faced in 2010. Corbyn would surely table a VNOC.

    You'd still expect the DUP and Lady Hermon to vote for the government, so I don't think Corbyn would table a VONC.

    The government won the VONC by 19 votes, so it would need more Tory defectors/whip resigners.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    How likely is it that Grieve, Greening, Lee & Gyimah will resign Tory Whip in event of Johnson becoming Tory leader? Were that to occur together with a by election being called for Brecon & Radnor , Tory strength would be down to 308 MPs - very similar to what Cameron faced in 2010. Corbyn would surely table a VNOC.

    No one has a clue how this plays out and even if Corbyn wins a vonc any GE is highly unpredictable
    I agree with that.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,761

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:


    Which is my point too. You are taking the nationalist view of the border. But there is a different, unionist view, no less strongly held. So how do we reconcile the unreconcileable?

    To adapt the saw about the auld Irish lad giving directions to Brexit, I wouldn't start from here.
    Indeed no.

    I blame James VI and I.

    It was his stupid idea to settle all those Scots into Ulster...
    I believe it was a Tudor bright idea originally.

    Where the Welsh go, we all follow.
    Well, we are naturally far superior to all other races. And it was of course the Earl of Pembroke who first led colonisation in Ireland in 1169.

    But the official plantations in Ulster began in 1609.
    First the Norman-Welsh, then the Spanish (Philip and Mary Tudor), then the Scots.

    And its England which gets the blame.
    I think it's fair to say Elizabeth I was English. Of her great-grandparents, one was half-Welsh and half-French (Edmund Tudor) three were English with some French ancestry (Margaret Beaufort, Edward IV, the Countess of Wiltshire) one was half-English and half-Burgundian (Elizabeth Woodville) one was Irish (Margaret Butler) and the rest were unabashedly English (Thomas Boleyn, Elizabeth Tilney, Thomas Howard).

    So you can't really blame us for her.
    But she didn't name Irish counties after herself as Mary and Philip had done.
    Which counties?
    Laois and Offaly - officially Queen's County and King's County.

    Although they're titles rather than names.
    So they didn't actually name them after themselves?
    Well, they were King and Queen at the time.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    ydoethur said:

    Chris Grayling is backing Boris for leader.

    If I could be assured Gove won't be second in the leadership ballot that would be the best news I've heard in weeks.
    Will you ever forgive me if I vote for Gove?

    I fear I will be excommunicated by David Cameron.
    Wasn't it reported Cameron is backing Boris? Very poor, if so.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Would Gove effectively bring back Purchase Tax?
This discussion has been closed.