Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On Betfair alone £3.5m has already been wagered on the CON lea

2456

Comments

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.

    No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.
    But the EU using the border for leverage against the U.K. is absolutely fine?
    Ireland is an EU member. Their interests are
    aligned.
    Indeed they are - against the British.

    That’s not a reason we should agree to it.
    And yet we signed the GFA...
    Which does not include the backstop...
    But does include cross-border organisation.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2019
    The Wikipedia page for the Tory leadership lists by name 71 supporters for Boris Johnson but the number appearing against his name is stuck on 65.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    rpjs said:

    We just have time.

    Not really. UTC is controlled by the ITU in Geneva.
    No, he meant we have Time.

    image
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.

    To be fair we have the option of opening up a second front against the EU and working with Putin to try to unravel it. That is what Leavers want, isn't it?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.

    To be fair we have the option of opening up a second front against the EU and working with Putin to try to unravel it. That is what Leavers want, isn't it?
    Good point. There is always that!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.

    Oh do get a grip.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.

    Oh do get a grip.
    Explain how I'm wrong?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    eek said:

    The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.

    No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.
    No deal is better than a bad deal for us too, and a bad deal for the United Kingdom wil be one that left open the possibility of using the backstop for leverage.

    So since no deal is better than lets go ahead with that.
    Why is No Deal better than a hypothetical deal. What exactly is No Deal in your view?
    No Deal is not better than a hypothetical deal. A deal without a backstop is a hypothetical deal, I want that hypothetical deal.

    No deal is better then a bad deal. Ireland and the EU are OK with that happening, why shouldn't we be too?
    In a withdrawal deal without a backstop, the EU can dictate terms to ensure the border stays open in the future relationship. With the backstop they can't.

    You want to put the UK in a weaker position.
    Cut the bullshit, nobody believes it. If no backstop put the UK in a weaker position the EU wouldn't be so desperate to insist on it.
    The UK is a potential rogue state and the backstop minimises any self-harm from affecting our neighbours. That's why the EU is insisting on it.
    Rogue state?

    “The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

    Or maybe not ...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    Rogue state?

    “The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

    Or maybe not ...

    The way Brexiteers talk about Ireland sounds just like the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance globally. Europe was the globe.

    We aren't in the middle ages now. Europe is just not that important anymore. Geography just doesn't matter that much.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,007

    eek said:

    The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.

    No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.
    No deal is better than a bad deal for us too, and a bad deal for the United Kingdom wil be one that left open the possibility of using the backstop for leverage.

    So since no deal is better than lets go ahead with that.
    Why is No Deal better than a hypothetical deal. What exactly is No Deal in your view?
    No Deal is not better than a hypothetical deal. A deal without a backstop is a hypothetical deal, I want that hypothetical deal.

    No deal is better then a bad deal. Ireland and the EU are OK with that happening, why shouldn't we be too?
    In a withdrawal deal without a backstop, the EU can dictate terms to ensure the border stays open in the future relationship. With the backstop they can't.

    You want to put the UK in a weaker position.
    Cut the bullshit, nobody believes it. If no backstop put the UK in a weaker position the EU wouldn't be so desperate to insist on it.
    The UK is a potential rogue state and the backstop minimises any self-harm from affecting our neighbours. That's why the EU is insisting on it.
    Silly comments like this diminish you.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.

    No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.
    But the EU using the border for leverage against the U.K. is absolutely fine?
    Ireland is an EU member. Their interests are
    aligned.
    Indeed they are - against the British.

    That’s not a reason we should agree to it.
    And yet we signed the GFA...
    Which does not include the backstop...
    But does include cross-border organisation.
    Cross-border yes. The backstop isn't cross-border, all power is on the Irish side of the border and the UK side is just a colony.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,911

    Rogue state?

    “The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

    Or maybe not ...

    The way Brexiteers talk about Ireland sounds just like the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.
    The way the EU talks about the UK is the same way Soviet Russia talked about Czechoslovakia during the Prague Spring. So what?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Rogue state?

    “The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

    Or maybe not ...

    The way Brexiteers talk about Ireland sounds just like the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.
    No the way Remainers and the EU talk about Norther Ireland is identical to the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.

    NI has the right to self-determination.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,007
    rpjs said:
    Why isn't that obvious to anyone that knows him?

    I can only conclude people are desperate to believe what they want to hear when they hear it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    kyf_100 said:

    Rogue state?

    “The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

    Or maybe not ...

    The way Brexiteers talk about Ireland sounds just like the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.
    The way the EU talks about the UK is the same way Soviet Russia talked about Czechoslovakia during the Prague Spring. So what?
    No it isn't. Where are the EU tanks on our streets?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,547

    Rogue state?

    “The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

    Or maybe not ...

    The way Brexiteers talk about Ireland sounds just like the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.
    No the way Remainers and the EU talk about Norther Ireland is identical to the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.

    NI has the right to self-determination.
    And would vote for the backstop.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.

    Oh do get a grip.
    Explain how I'm wrong?
    For luckyguy to properly answer, but we're really not likely to be attacked (militarily) by the EU. There is also no united front against us. We've not presented anything coherent enough to unite against.
    I'd suggest that there is no likely outcome where we are not the most important nation in Europe, or at least for London as a city.

  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Rogue state?

    “The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

    Or maybe not ...

    The way Brexiteers talk about Ireland sounds just like the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.
    No the way Remainers and the EU talk about Norther Ireland is identical to the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.

    NI has the right to self-determination.
    What complete and utter crap
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    NI has the right to self-determination.

    65-35 support for the backstop.

    image
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.

    Oh do get a grip.
    Explain how I'm wrong?
    Apart from your dodgy history (where is the rest of the world in all this?), why is it always your side that accuses everyone else of being obsessed by our colonial past, but simultaneously your side that frets about our international prestige and our seat at the table and our lack of clout in the counsels of the world? Switzerland is not a vassal state of the EU, nor is Norway, nor is Russia. Can you point to a single one infact? The only way to become an EU vassal state is to join it.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    nichomar said:

    Rogue state?

    “The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

    Or maybe not ...

    The way Brexiteers talk about Ireland sounds just like the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.
    No the way Remainers and the EU talk about Norther Ireland is identical to the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.

    NI has the right to self-determination.
    What complete and utter crap
    I fully get that your side believes NI having the right to self-determination is complete and utter crap.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,547
    edited June 2019

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance globally. Europe was the globe.

    We aren't in the middle ages now. Europe is just not that important anymore. Geography just doesn't matter that much.
    Fujiyama said something similar about history a quarter of a century back. He was rather more erudite, but equally wrong.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance globally. Europe was the globe.

    We aren't in the middle ages now. Europe is just not that important anymore. Geography just doesn't matter that much.
    Source please.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.

    The ever more desperate 'Germany will need an ally against France and 'France will need an ally against Germany' fantasies from our politicians and Sir Humphreys from 1990 onwards.

    Not to mention the 'if we broaden Europe we will stop a deeper Europe' and 'if make a concession now we gain goodwill for the future' wishful thinking.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    rpjs said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    It is a beautifully sunny day. But on such a day I really want to be in a nice garden somewhere away from traffic. NY is not ideal for that. So heading off to a museum instead.

    The Ellis Island museum is well worth the boat trip, and great views of the Statue of Liberty and harbour.
    I know. I’ve done it. Fascinating.
    Mid you, last time I was in NYC, I went up the World Trade Centre. It has been a while!
    The new 1WTC has a viewing gallery as well. As an employee of a WTC tenant (I'm currently looking out at the Brooklyn and Manhattan Bridges from the 60th floor of 4WTC) I believe I'm supposed to get a discount but haven't got around to doing it yet.
    It's a helluva view.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Nigelb said:

    Rogue state?

    “The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

    Or maybe not ...

    The way Brexiteers talk about Ireland sounds just like the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.
    No the way Remainers and the EU talk about Norther Ireland is identical to the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.

    NI has the right to self-determination.
    And would vote for the backstop.
    So you claim but we've had both a General Election and a Northern Ireland assembly election since the referendum and their elected representatives are opposed to the backstop.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.

    Oh do get a grip.
    Explain how I'm wrong?
    Apart from your dodgy history (where is the rest of the world in all this?), why is it always your side that accuses everyone else of being obsessed by our colonial past, but simultaneously your side that frets about our international prestige and our seat at the table and our lack of clout in the counsels of the world? Switzerland is not a vassal state of the EU, nor is Norway, nor is Russia. Can you point to a single one infact? The only way to become an EU vassal state is to join it.
    Brilliant. So a Swiss soft Brexit it is then! Thanks for confirming the right course of action.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042

    eek said:

    The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.

    No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.
    No deal is better than a bad deal for us too, and a bad deal for the United Kingdom wil be one that left open the possibility of using the backstop for leverage.

    So since no deal is better than lets go ahead with that.
    Why is No Deal better than a hypothetical deal. What exactly is No Deal in your view?
    No Deal is not better than a hypothetical deal. A deal without a backstop is a hypothetical deal, I want that hypothetical deal.

    No deal is better then a bad deal. Ireland and the EU are OK with that happening, why shouldn't we be too?
    In a withdrawal deal without a backstop, the EU can dictate terms to ensure the border stays open in the future relationship. With the backstop they can't.

    You want to put the UK in a weaker position.
    Cut the bullshit, nobody believes it. If no backstop put the UK in a weaker position the EU wouldn't be so desperate to insist on it.
    The UK is a potential rogue state and the backstop minimises any self-harm from affecting our neighbours. That's why the EU is insisting on it.
    Silly comments like this diminish you.
    Silly comments like that diminish him? The man is a silly comment. It's his thing.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392
    Wouldn't it be great if Tory MPs were all playing a huge prank at Bozo's expense and on Thursday he receives a grand total of 1 vote. From himself.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
    Only in the paranoid mind of Brexiteers "who would have us cower in isolation from our neighbours in Europe", as Thatcher put it.

    https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/104741
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance globally. Europe was the globe.

    We aren't in the middle ages now. Europe is just not that important anymore. Geography just doesn't matter that much.
    Source please.
    A source for what part.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,007
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The

    Conservatism is Brexit, nothing more, nothing less. That is what the massive surge to BXP has taught us.
    In that
    Rory could have made that pitch for the Conservatives, with a moderate Brexit.

    He didn’t, so he’ll lose.
    Rory does support a moderate Brexit. That you don't recognize it as such only goes to show how difficult his job is.
    Bullocks. I’ve written over this thread and previous that I do think he’s a Conservative
    Then why say he 'could have made that pitch for the Conservatives' and that he didn't? Seems a lot like saying he is not making a Conservative pitch.
    Read my posts again, and try and understand what I’ve said.
    Perhaps instead of condescending that I did not comprehend your point, you might consider that your point was not in any way well made and was not as self evident as you thought it was, given multiple people have taken away from it what you claim was not there. It happens, believe me I know.

    Whatever your claimed intent, you said he did not make a pitch for the Conservatives, and are now whining that people read into that that you do not think he made a Conservative pitch.
    I know Rory is a Tory, but he's got the resonance and tone of his pitch all wrong. In his (sincere) attempts to look and sound different, he's overplayed it. Some of his choices of language aren't right either, like using love instead of compassion. As a consequence he's only appealing to those already not voting for his own party, and many who never would, who are desperate to seek solace in a Tory candidate for PM (who will be foisted on them anyway) who they can at least tolerate.

    He's got some things right, and his language of healing and unity is good, but it's no good winning over a few centrist floating voters if the entire Tory base desert him too - that's not building a winning coalition.

    So far I'd say he's a nicer and more thoughtful Portillo c.2001 (on opium) as opposed to the stardust-sprinkled Cameron c.2005, who rode both horses.

    If he'd got all the above right, we'd be looking at Cameron 2.0 for the 2020s and he'd be heading for the final two.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,008

    NI has the right to self-determination.

    65-35 support for the backstop.

    image
    You're about to be told that self-determination doesn't actually mean you get to determine what happens to you.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance globally. Europe was the globe.

    We aren't in the middle ages now. Europe is just not that important anymore. Geography just doesn't matter that much.
    Source please.
    A source for what part.
    That geography does not matter. The large American (10B+ USD) industrial/motion and controls company that I work for has localised manufacturing in ASIAPAC, EMEA and the Americas for the exact reason that Geography DOES matter.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.

    Oh do get a grip.
    Explain how I'm wrong?
    Apart from your dodgy history (where is the rest of the world in all this?), why is it always your side that accuses everyone else of being obsessed by our colonial past, but simultaneously your side that frets about our international prestige and our seat at the table and our lack of clout in the counsels of the world? Switzerland is not a vassal state of the EU, nor is Norway, nor is Russia. Can you point to a single one infact? The only way to become an EU vassal state is to join it.
    Brilliant. So a Swiss soft Brexit it is then! Thanks for confirming the right course of action.
    I'd be very happy with EFTA. I'd be happy with most forms of Brexit - unlike most here I don't think the regulations governing our trade with the continent are the pivotal issue. I don't think No deal would be bad but I'm happy with whatever stops people wetting the bed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,547
    viewcode said:

    rpjs said:
    Simultaneously a twat and an arsehole.
    The word you are looking for is "taint". Boris the Taint. Seems apt in a GoT way.

    Shit would do, too.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/11/johnson-allowed-arms-sales-to-saudis-after-strike-on-food-factory
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.

    It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Streeter said:

    FPT


    Anecdote.

    Accounts manager at work, had to invoice a firm in Belfast.

    “Do we have to charge them VAT? Are they in Eire?”

    Judging by invoices I've seen over the years some businesses in Northern Ireland don't know what VAT rates they should be charging.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,911

    kyf_100 said:

    Rogue state?

    “The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

    Or maybe not ...

    The way Brexiteers talk about Ireland sounds just like the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.
    The way the EU talks about the UK is the same way Soviet Russia talked about Czechoslovakia during the Prague Spring. So what?
    No it isn't. Where are the EU tanks on our streets?
    I was being sarcastic, to demonstrate that your use of hyperbole is ridiculous. But oh well, if you insist, here you go... ;)

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3602683/Invasion-EU-army-Worried-Euro-tanks-park-lawn-Minister-late-here.html
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    isam said:

    Rory 2nd, Jezza a distance back in 3rd?
    Rory really appeals to people who don't care about a politician's vision, values or policies as long as they say the word "sensible" a lot. A demographic which I think is a little overrepresented on pb and in the media class.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.

    It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.
    I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.

    So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038

    Wouldn't it be great if Tory MPs were all playing a huge prank at Bozo's expense and on Thursday he receives a grand total of 1 vote. From himself.

    :lol: More seriously, if he gets n-x, where n is the public declared and x is the actuality, things could get tricky.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,008

    rpjs said:

    We just have time.

    Not really. UTC is controlled by the ITU in Geneva.
    No, he meant we have Time.

    image
    I was reading an article about the photomontage artist who created that cover. Apparently his trademark is that Phil Mitchell from EastEnders appears in all his works. There he is behind Angela Merkel.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.

    It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.
    I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.

    So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
    Translation: "I see I've succeeded in driving you mad."
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.

    It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.
    I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.

    So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
    What else is there to say? To state that the EU was united against us and was somehow 'holding us down' is just simply wrong. It's not an opinion, it's just incorrect.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.

    No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.
    But the EU using the border for leverage against the U.K. is absolutely fine?
    Ireland is an EU member. Their interests are
    aligned.
    Indeed they are - against the British.

    That’s not a reason we should agree to it.
    And yet we signed the GFA...
    Which does not include the backstop...
    But does include cross-border organisation.
    Cross-border yes. The backstop isn't cross-border, all power is on the Irish side of the border and the UK side is just a colony.
    So use UK power to push back. And if pushing back doesn't work, then you don't have any power... :(

    One of the bad things about this is how badly it is exposing lack of power. One of the reasons why I was so Remainery was because I wanted power, not control. But Leavers mistook control for power and we are now horribly finding out that control with no power is useless. Hence the unending whining about being bullied. People with power do not whine about being bullied. They do the bullying.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    rpjs said:
    Why isn't that obvious to anyone that knows him?

    I can only conclude people are desperate to believe what they want to hear when they hear it.
    They think a GE is coming and he is the best bet in shoring up the Tory vote, whatever the situation. I cannot see any other explanation why people with entirely divergent views on the critical issue back him.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042
    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Rogue state?

    “The creatures outside looked from Boris to Kim Jung-Un, and from Kimg Jung-Un to Boris, and from Boris to Kim Jung-Un again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”

    Or maybe not ...

    The way Brexiteers talk about Ireland sounds just like the way the Kremlin talks about Ukraine.
    The way the EU talks about the UK is the same way Soviet Russia talked about Czechoslovakia during the Prague Spring. So what?
    No it isn't. Where are the EU tanks on our streets?
    I was being sarcastic, to demonstrate that your use of hyperbole is ridiculous. But oh well, if you insist, here you go... ;)

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3602683/Invasion-EU-army-Worried-Euro-tanks-park-lawn-Minister-late-here.html
    Thank the heavens we're leaving. :smiley:
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
    Only in the paranoid mind of Brexiteers "who would have us cower in isolation from our neighbours in Europe", as Thatcher put it.

    https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/104741
    The Thatcher who reveled me in being the outsider in Europe ?

    The Thatcher who was willing to stop European business in order to get the Rebate ?

    This Thatcher:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tetk_ayO1x4
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,909
    viewcode said:

    rpjs said:
    Simultaneously a twat and an arsehole.
    The word you are looking for is "taint". Boris the Taint. Seems apt in a GoT way.
    Tainted Gove, surely!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited June 2019
    AndyJS said:

    The Wikipedia page for the Tory leadership lists by name 71 supporters for Boris Johnson but the number appearing against his name is stuck on 65.

    If it is this page it lists my MP, Andrew Murruson, as backing Raab, but he has come out for Boris, so it is not perfect.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorsements_in_the_2019_Conservative_Party_(UK)_leadership_election
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,007
    kle4 said:

    rpjs said:
    Why isn't that obvious to anyone that knows him?

    I can only conclude people are desperate to believe what they want to hear when they hear it.
    They think a GE is coming and he is the best bet in shoring up the Tory vote, whatever the situation. I cannot see any other explanation why people with entirely divergent views on the critical issue back him.
    That too.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
    Only in the paranoid mind of Brexiteers "who would have us cower in isolation from our neighbours in Europe", as Thatcher put it.

    https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/104741
    The Thatcher who reveled me in being the outsider in Europe ?

    The Thatcher who was willing to stop European business in order to get the Rebate ?

    This Thatcher:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tetk_ayO1x4
    The WWTD arguments are surely the lowest grade of Brexit argument.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,721

    isam said:

    Rory 2nd, Jezza a distance back in 3rd?
    Rory really appeals to people who don't care about a politician's vision, values or policies as long as they say the word "sensible" a lot. A demographic which I think is a little overrepresented on pb and in the media class.
    Yes, the people who are very impressed with him seem to be those who voted Lib Dem at the Euros. Continuity Remainers & Cameroon’s. I think I’d quite like that kind of politician to be Conservative leader as it could mean the Remain vote is split further.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,909

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.

    It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.
    7WTC?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,688

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
    Only in the paranoid mind of Brexiteers "who would have us cower in isolation from our neighbours in Europe", as Thatcher put it.

    https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/104741
    The Thatcher who reveled me in being the outsider in Europe ?

    The Thatcher who was willing to stop European business in order to get the Rebate ?

    This Thatcher:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tetk_ayO1x4
    I'm undoubtedly being thick here, but can you point to what precisely you dislike?

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    The WWTD arguments are surely the lowest grade of Brexit argument.

    This is Boris Johnson's answer to the WWTD question.

    https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1138178884535500803
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    edited June 2019
    Off topic, but it appears that the Trump administration is now cross about EU governments increasing military spending. Apparently, they were supposed to spend the money with US defence firms, rather than on soldiers or with European firms.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042
    edited June 2019
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.

    No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.
    But the EU using the border for leverage against the U.K. is absolutely fine?
    Ireland is an EU member. Their interests are
    aligned.
    Indeed they are - against the British.

    That’s not a reason we should agree to it.
    And yet we signed the GFA...
    Which does not include the backstop...
    But does include cross-border organisation.
    Cross-border yes. The backstop isn't cross-border, all power is on the Irish side of the border and the UK side is just a colony.
    So use UK power to push back. And if pushing back doesn't work, then you don't have any power... :(

    One of the bad things about this is how badly it is exposing lack of power. One of the reasons why I was so Remainery was because I wanted power, not control. But Leavers mistook control for power and we are now horribly finding out that control with no power is useless. Hence the unending whining about being bullied. People with power do not whine about being bullied. They do the bullying.
    How lovely of you to want to bully people. What a great reason to be in the EU. We may get shat on but we can still feel smug about theoretically doing the same to others. Farcical empire-obsessed remainers who think they're in a game of Risk. A nation that can grow, prosper, thrive, and protect its borders is what we need. Everything else is noise. 'Vanity, vanity, all is vanity' - Ecclesiastes
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    British defence policy through the last 500 years was to ensure a power balance in Europe. Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. There is no outcome where we eventually end up anything other than a vassal state of the EU. Even with a WTO Brexit. Geography and geopolitics dictate it.

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.
    Only in the paranoid mind of Brexiteers "who would have us cower in isolation from our neighbours in Europe", as Thatcher put it.

    https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/104741
    The Thatcher who reveled me in being the outsider in Europe ?

    The Thatcher who was willing to stop European business in order to get the Rebate ?

    This Thatcher:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tetk_ayO1x4
    The WWTD arguments are surely the lowest grade of Brexit argument.
    This times 1000!

    I would not be surprised if one of the candidates ends up stating the ghost of Thatcher visited them in a dream to tell them what to do. They'll offer prayers to her name as they go into a GE, exhorting the troops that she is behind them.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The

    Conservatism is Brexit, nothing more, nothing less. That is what the massive surge to BXP has taught us.
    In that
    Rory could have made that pitch for the Conservatives, with a moderate Brexit.

    He didn’t, so he’ll lose.
    Rory does support a moderate Brexit. That you don't recognize it as such only goes to show how difficult his job is.
    Bullocks. I’ve written over this thread and previous that I do think he’s a Conservative
    Then why say he 'could have made that pitch for the Conservatives' and that he didn't? Seems a lot like saying he is not making a Conservative pitch.
    Read my posts again, and try and understand what I’ve said.
    Perhaps instead of condescending that I did not comprehend your point, you might consider that your point was not in any way well made and was not as self evident as you thought it was, given multiple people have taken away from it what you claim was not there. It happens, believe me I know.

    Whatever your claimed intent, you said he did not make a pitch for the Conservatives, and are now whining that people read into that that you do not think he made a Conservative pitch.
    I know Rory is a Tory, but he's got the resonance and tone of his pitch all wrong. In his (sincere) attempts to look and sound different, he's overplayed it. Some of his choices of language aren't right either, like using love instead of compassion. As a consequence he's only appealing to those already not voting for his own party, and many who never would, who are desperate to seek solace in a Tory candidate for PM (who will be foisted on them anyway) who they can at least tolerate.

    He's got some things right, and his language of healing and unity is good, but it's no good winning over a few centrist floating voters if the entire Tory base desert him too - that's not building a winning coalition.

    So far I'd say he's a nicer and more thoughtful Portillo c.2001 (on opium) as opposed to the stardust-sprinkled Cameron c.2005, who rode both horses.

    If he'd got all the above right, we'd be looking at Cameron 2.0 for the 2020s and he'd be heading for the final two.
    You’re right he’s the Tory who i would think about voting for but never would because he is a tory
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    The problem with Brexiteers is that they are not transparent about they actually want. "Brexit" is a process not an end state. What is the vision?

    Is it Switzerland? Then that dictates a close relationship with the EU and not simply a 'FTA'.

    Is it Russia? Not sure that's a positive role model.

    Is it Canada? If so, what is Canada? To rely on the US market as our primary foreign market rather than the EU and if so, what is the consequence of that?

    Is it Australia? How can we compare our economy with theirs when theirs is so heavily raw material based?

    Is it Japan? or South Korea?

    If it is something else, why isn't any other country currently utilising that model, if it was so good?

    Ultimately, any sensible, reasoned country would ensure a long transition period to prevent economic shocks. The knee-jerk reaction to leave in October 'COME WHAT MAY' is just insane.

    Everything about Brexit is knee-jerk.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230

    viewcode said:

    rpjs said:
    Simultaneously a twat and an arsehole.
    The word you are looking for is "taint". Boris the Taint. Seems apt in a GoT way.
    Tainted Gove, surely!
    Chapeau, sir... :)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,547
    edited June 2019
    rcs1000 said:

    Off topic, but it appears that the Trump administration is now cross about EU governments increasing military spending. Apparently, they were supposed to spend the money with US defence firms, rather than on soldiers or with European firms.

    I saw that. International defence policy as protection racket seems to be the Trump idea.

    It does for with his background mafia connections, I suppose.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    rcs1000 said:

    Off topic, but it appears that the Trump administration is now cross about EU governments increasing military spending. Apparently, they were supposed to spend the money with US defence firms, rather than on soldiers or with European firms.

    If you listen to Trump's rants on European and Japanese defence going back to the 1980s, he always thought that if the US threatened to withdraw, they could extract huge sums of money.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Rory 2nd, Jezza a distance back in 3rd?
    Rory really appeals to people who don't care about a politician's vision, values or policies as long as they say the word "sensible" a lot. A demographic which I think is a little overrepresented on pb and in the media class.
    Yes, the people who are very impressed with him seem to be those who voted Lib Dem at the Euros. Continuity Remainers & Cameroon’s. I think I’d quite like that kind of politician to be Conservative leader as it could mean the Remain vote is split further.
    Remember a lot of these same people were talking about a sensible Brexit compromise and how vital it is to avoid No Deal. Weird how few of them voted for the only party in the EU who was running on that platform, Labour.

    Ultimately, "sensible centrists" are just as ideological as everyone else, but because they don't recognise that, they don't understand the necessity of defending their ideology. Instead they exist in a state of perpetual astonishment that saying "can't we all just be grown-ups about this?" isn't winning people over.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.

    No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.
    But the EU using the border for leverage against the U.K. is absolutely fine?
    Ireland is an EU member. Their interests are
    aligned.
    Indeed they are - against the British.

    That’s not a reason we should agree to it.
    And yet we signed the GFA...
    Which does not include the backstop...
    But does include cross-border organisation.
    Cross-border yes. The backstop isn't cross-border, all power is on the Irish side of the border and the UK side is just a colony.
    So use UK power to push back. And if pushing back doesn't work, then you don't have any power... :(

    One of the bad things about this is how badly it is exposing lack of power. One of the reasons why I was so Remainery was because I wanted power, not control. But Leavers mistook control for power and we are now horribly finding out that control with no power is useless. Hence the unending whining about being bullied. People with power do not whine about being bullied. They do the bullying.
    We have power, which is why we're not afraid to leave without a deal.

    Problem is the remainers who are afraid. It isn't a lack of power that is holding us back, it is an abundance of cowardice.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Rory 2nd, Jezza a distance back in 3rd?
    Rory really appeals to people who don't care about a politician's vision, values or policies as long as they say the word "sensible" a lot. A demographic which I think is a little overrepresented on pb and in the media class.
    Yes, the people who are very impressed with him seem to be those who voted Lib Dem at the Euros. Continuity Remainers & Cameroon’s. I think I’d quite like that kind of politician to be Conservative leader as it could mean the Remain vote is split further.
    Remember a lot of these same people were talking about a sensible Brexit compromise and how vital it is to avoid No Deal. Weird how few of them voted for the only party in the EU who was running on that platform, Labour.

    Ultimately, "sensible centrists" are just as ideological as everyone else, but because they don't recognise that, they don't understand the necessity of defending their ideology. Instead they exist in a state of perpetual astonishment that saying "can't we all just be grown-ups about this?" isn't winning people over.
    Except Labour were not running on that platform. Nobody knows what Labour's policy is on Brexit. Not even them.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    edited June 2019

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.

    It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.
    I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.

    So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
    What else is there to say? To state that the EU was united against us and was somehow 'holding us down' is just simply wrong. It's not an opinion, it's just incorrect.
    This is what you said at 8.17:

    " Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. "

    So it was YOU who said that the EU was united against us - I merely responded to your comment

    This is what I said at 8.31:

    " Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.

    The ever more desperate 'Germany will need an ally against France and 'France will need an ally against Germany' fantasies from our politicians and Sir Humphreys from 1990 onwards.

    Not to mention the 'if we broaden Europe we will stop a deeper Europe' and 'if make a concession now we gain goodwill for the future' wishful thinking. "

    I did not state that Europe was 'holding us down' so please don't claim I did.

    Now what my comment was referencing was the failure of our politicians and Sir Humphreys over several decades to understand that the EU's policy of EverCloserUnion actually meant EverCloserUnion and the consequent failure of Britain policy towards the EU.

    I do not blame the EU or other European countries for this - the failure was one of Britain's political leadership.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited June 2019

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Rory 2nd, Jezza a distance back in 3rd?
    Rory really appeals to people who don't care about a politician's vision, values or policies as long as they say the word "sensible" a lot. A demographic which I think is a little overrepresented on pb and in the media class.
    Yes, the people who are very impressed with him seem to be those who voted Lib Dem at the Euros. Continuity Remainers & Cameroon’s. I think I’d quite like that kind of politician to be Conservative leader as it could mean the Remain vote is split further.
    Remember a lot of these same people were talking about a sensible Brexit compromise and how vital it is to avoid No Deal. Weird how few of them voted for the only party in the EU who was running on that platform, Labour.
    Wasn't that, by default, the Tory policy as well?

    And was it Labour's policy? A lot of them were saying that even if Labour had their own deal it must be put to a referendum and they must campaign for remain.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,007

    Pulpstar said:

    Third, like Leadsom in the betting for some god unknown reason.

    I think you know the reason.
    Do we?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,007
    nichomar said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The

    Conservatism is Brexit, nothing more, nothing less. That is what the massive surge to BXP has taught us.
    In that
    Rory could have made that pitch for the Conservatives, with a moderate Brexit.

    He didn’t, so he’ll lose.
    Rory does support a moderate Brexit. That you don't recognize it as such only goes to show how difficult his job is.
    Bullocks. I’ve written over this thread and previous that I do think he’s a Conservative
    Then why say he 'could have made that pitch for the Conservatives' and that he didn't? Seems a lot like saying he is not making a Conservative pitch.
    Read my posts again, and try and understand what I’ve said.
    Perhaps instead of condescending that I did not comprehend your point, you might consider that your point was not in any way well made and was not as self evident as you thought it was, given multiple people have taken away from it what you claim was not there. It happens, believe me I know.

    Whatever your claimed intent, you said he did not make a pitch for the Conservatives, and are now whining that people read into that that you do not think he made a Conservative pitch.
    I know Rory is a Tory, but he's got the resonance and tone of his pitch all wrong. In his (sincere) attempts to look and sound different, he's overplayed it. Some of his choices of language aren't right either, like using love instead of compassion. As a consequence he's only appealing to those already not voting for his own party, and many who never would, who are desperate to seek solace in a Tory candidate for PM (who will be foisted on them anyway) who they can at least tolerate.

    He's got some things right, and his language of healing and unity is good, but it's no good winning over a few centrist floating voters if the entire Tory base desert him too - that's not building a winning coalition.

    So far I'd say he's a nicer and more thoughtful Portillo c.2001 (on opium) as opposed to the stardust-sprinkled Cameron c.2005, who rode both horses.

    If he'd got all the above right, we'd be looking at Cameron 2.0 for the 2020s and he'd be heading for the final two.
    You’re right he’s the Tory who i would think about voting for but never would because he is a tory
    I know I'm right.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    We have power, which is why we're not afraid to leave without a deal.

    Problem is the remainers who are afraid. It isn't a lack of power that is holding us back, it is an abundance of cowardice.

    So 'we' Brexiteers have power, but not enough power to overrule the cowardly Remainers?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.

    No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.
    But the EU using the border for leverage against the U.K. is absolutely fine?
    Ireland is an EU member. Their interests are
    aligned.
    Indeed they are - against the British.

    That’s not a reason we should agree to it.
    And yet we signed the GFA...
    Which does not include the backstop...
    But does include cross-border organisation.
    Cross-border yes. The backstop isn't cross-border, all power is on the Irish side of the border and the UK side is just a colony.
    So use UK power to push back. And if pushing back doesn't work, then you don't have any power... :(

    One of the bad things about this is how badly it is exposing lack of power. One of the reasons why I was so Remainery was because I wanted power, not control. But Leavers mistook control for power and we are now horribly finding out that control with no power is useless. Hence the unending whining about being bullied. People with power do not whine about being bullied. They do the bullying.
    We have power, which is why we're not afraid to leave without a deal.

    Problem is the remainers who are afraid. It isn't a lack of power that is holding us back, it is an abundance of cowardice.
    Anyone with any sort of experience that qualifies them on making the judgement on whether 'everything would be fine' or even 'is it worth it' thinks leaving without a deal is a bad idea.

    It's just arrogant people like you who think you know better than everyone else think that you are somehow fighting a war and that the losses will be acceptable just to somehow 'win'.

    You guys are the cowards. Too cowardly to admit that Brexit as currently planned and implemented is a disaster.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,956

    Pulpstar said:

    Third, like Leadsom in the betting for some god unknown reason.

    I think you know the reason.
    Do we?
    A Leadsom supporter with more money than sense/wanting to creative a narrative.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042

    The problem with Brexiteers is that they are not transparent about they actually want. "Brexit" is a process not an end state. What is the vision?

    Is it Switzerland? Then that dictates a close relationship with the EU and not simply a 'FTA'.

    Is it Russia? Not sure that's a positive role model.

    Is it Canada? If so, what is Canada? To rely on the US market as our primary foreign market rather than the EU and if so, what is the consequence of that?

    Is it Australia? How can we compare our economy with theirs when theirs is so heavily raw material based?

    Is it Japan? or South Korea?

    If it is something else, why isn't any other country currently utilising that model, if it was so good?

    Ultimately, any sensible, reasoned country would ensure a long transition period to prevent economic shocks. The knee-jerk reaction to leave in October 'COME WHAT MAY' is just insane.

    Everything about Brexit is knee-jerk.

    Turned up an EU vassal state yet? Oh well.

    As a side note, I do love the remainer faction warning us of the dread power of the EU superstate and its mere proximity guaranteeing vassalage. I remember a time when they were denying it had any pretensions to statehood at all.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Rory 2nd, Jezza a distance back in 3rd?
    Rory really appeals to people who don't care about a politician's vision, values or policies as long as they say the word "sensible" a lot. A demographic which I think is a little overrepresented on pb and in the media class.
    Yes, the people who are very impressed with him seem to be those who voted Lib Dem at the Euros. Continuity Remainers & Cameroon’s. I think I’d quite like that kind of politician to be Conservative leader as it could mean the Remain vote is split further.
    Remember a lot of these same people were talking about a sensible Brexit compromise and how vital it is to avoid No Deal. Weird how few of them voted for the only party in the EU who was running on that platform, Labour.
    Wasn't that, by default, the Tory policy as well?
    Arguably, but May never really ruled out No Deal in the way Labour have, and with the upcoming leadership election we knew that there was a good chance of the party pivoting to No Deal.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    We have power, which is why we're not afraid to leave without a deal.

    Problem is the remainers who are afraid. It isn't a lack of power that is holding us back, it is an abundance of cowardice.

    So 'we' Brexiteers have power, but not enough power to overrule the cowardly Remainers?
    No 'we' the UK have power, but Brexiteers don't have enough MPs to overrule the cowardly Remainers.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.

    It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.
    I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.

    So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
    What else is there to say? To state that the EU was united against us and was somehow 'holding us down' is just simply wrong. It's not an opinion, it's just incorrect.
    This is what you said at 8.17:

    " Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. "

    So it was YOU who said that the EU was united against us - I merely responded to your comment

    This is what I said at 8.31:

    " Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.

    The ever more desperate 'Germany will need an ally against France and 'France will need an ally against Germany' fantasies from our politicians and Sir Humphreys from 1990 onwards.

    Not to mention the 'if we broaden Europe we will stop a deeper Europe' and 'if make a concession now we gain goodwill for the future' wishful thinking. "

    I did not state that Europe was 'holding us down' so please don't claim I did.

    Now what my comment was referencing was the failure of our politicians and Sir Humphreys over several decades to understand that the EU's policy of EverCloserUnion actually meant EverCloserUnion and the consequent failure of Britain policy towards the EU.

    I do not blame the EU or other European countries for this - the failure was one of Britain's political leadership.
    My comment about the EU being united against us NOW is fact by the nature of them being on the other side of the negotiating table as a united front.

    Your comment was referencing that prior to Brexit, the reason why Brexit happened was due to the EU being united against our interests. If I have misinterpreted that, I apologise.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.

    It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.
    I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.

    So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
    Translation: "I see I've succeeded in driving you mad."
    As Gallowgate seems unable to read either what I wrote or even what he has written himself he does seem to have problems.

    And anyone saying things like '9/11 truthers' has probably spent too much time on political websites.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    We have power, which is why we're not afraid to leave without a deal.

    Problem is the remainers who are afraid. It isn't a lack of power that is holding us back, it is an abundance of cowardice.

    So 'we' Brexiteers have power, but not enough power to overrule the cowardly Remainers?
    No 'we' the UK have power, but Brexiteers don't have enough MPs to overrule the cowardly Remainers.
    Ah, so it’s actually that ‘we’ the UK have the power to overrule the loony Brexiteers.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.

    No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.
    But the EU using the border for leverage against the U.K. is absolutely fine?
    Ireland is an EU member. Their interests are
    aligned.
    Indeed they are - against the British.

    That’s not a reason we should agree to it.
    And yet we signed the GFA...
    Which does not include the backstop...
    But does include cross-border organisation.
    Cross-border yes. The backstop isn't cross-border, all power is on the Irish side of the border and the UK side is just a colony.
    So use UK power to push back. And if pushing back doesn't work, then you don't have any power... :(

    One of the bad things about this is how badly it is exposing lack of power. One of the reasons why I was so Remainery was because I wanted power, not control. But Leavers mistook control for power and we are now horribly finding out that control with no power is useless. Hence the unending whining about being bullied. People with power do not whine about being bullied. They do the bullying.
    We have power, which is why we're not afraid to leave without a deal.

    Problem is the remainers who are afraid. It isn't a lack of power that is holding us back, it is an abundance of cowardice.
    Anyone with any sort of experience that qualifies them on making the judgement on whether 'everything would be fine' or even 'is it worth it' thinks leaving without a deal is a bad idea.

    It's just arrogant people like you who think you know better than everyone else think that you are somehow fighting a war and that the losses will be acceptable just to somehow 'win'.

    You guys are the cowards. Too cowardly to admit that Brexit as currently planned and implemented is a disaster.
    Its not a disaster so lets get on with with it.

    If leaving without a deal is so disastrous how come Dublin is prepared to accept no deal to avoid what they view as a bad deal? Because quite frankly it isn't disastrous. They know it and we know it.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    https://twitter.com/matt_gillow/status/1138492573234937859

    “Millions of people” ffs. How out of touch is she?

    It is millions. That's a matter of fact.

    Then again you're a lefty. Not particularly keen on being in touch with facts are you?
    Equally it's millions less than it used to be.

    In 2016/17 anyone earning over £43,000 was paying higher rate tax at 40%
    in 2019/20 you need to earn £50,000 (outside of Scotland) to be paying higher rate tax - an increase from £46350 in 2018/19)..

    And millions of more that it was in previous years too. But either way the statement was that millions of people pay it and millions of people do. Just shows how out of touch with reality Gallowgate is FFS.
    The reasoning for £80k, is that that’s what the starting point for the 40% rate would be, if it had risen with inflation since it was introduced by Lawson in (IIRC) 1988.
    The upper rate started at £19,300 in 1988.

    Using the bank of England inflation calculator that 19 grand would be £50,000 today.

    Which the current higher rate tax band is.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.

    It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.
    I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.

    So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
    Translation: "I see I've succeeded in driving you mad."
    As Gallowgate seems unable to read either what I wrote or even what he has written himself he does seem to have problems.

    And anyone saying things like '9/11 truthers' has probably spent too much time on political websites.
    What is the right amount of time to spend on political websites? (Asking for a friend.)
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    Its not a disaster so lets get on with with it.

    If leaving without a deal is so disastrous how come Dublin is prepared to accept no deal to avoid what they view as a bad deal? Because quite frankly it isn't disastrous. They know it and we know it.

    Dublin knows that the eventual result of a no deal Brexit is a united Ireland and that ultimately we need the EU more than they need us.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,956
    edited June 2019
    rcs1000 said:

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.

    It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.
    I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.

    So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
    Translation: "I see I've succeeded in driving you mad."
    As Gallowgate seems unable to read either what I wrote or even what he has written himself he does seem to have problems.

    And anyone saying things like '9/11 truthers' has probably spent too much time on political websites.
    What is the right amount of time to spend on political websites? (Asking for a friend.)
    When you start dreaming about a certain political website then you've been on it for too long.

    PS - Have you seen the Radiohead news?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Its not a disaster so lets get on with with it.

    If leaving without a deal is so disastrous how come Dublin is prepared to accept no deal to avoid what they view as a bad deal? Because quite frankly it isn't disastrous. They know it and we know it.

    Dublin knows that the eventual result of a no deal Brexit is a united Ireland and that ultimately we need the EU more than they need us.
    Why would Dublin want Northern Ireland back?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    Its not a disaster so lets get on with with it.

    If leaving without a deal is so disastrous how come Dublin is prepared to accept no deal to avoid what they view as a bad deal? Because quite frankly it isn't disastrous. They know it and we know it.

    Dublin knows that the eventual result of a no deal Brexit is a united Ireland and that ultimately we need the EU more than they need us.
    Why would Dublin want Northern Ireland back?
    Good question!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.

    No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.
    But the EU using the border for leverage against the U.K. is absolutely fine?
    Ireland is an EU member. Their interests are
    aligned.
    Indeed they are - against the British.

    That’s not a reason we should agree to it.
    And yet we signed the GFA...
    Which does not include the backstop...
    But does include cross-border organisation.
    Cross-border yes. The backstop isn't cross-border, all power is on the Irish side of the border and the UK side is just a colony.
    So use UK power to push back. And if pushing back doesn't work, then you don't have any power... :(

    One of the bad things about this is how badly it is exposing lack of power. One of the reasons why I was so Remainery was because I wanted power, not control. But Leavers mistook control for power and we are now horribly finding out that control with no power is useless. Hence the unending whining about being bullied. People with power do not whine about being bullied. They do the bullying.
    How lovely of you to want to bully people...
    I don't. I was telling you what the facts were.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.

    It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.
    I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.

    So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
    What else is there to say? To state that the EU was united against us and was somehow 'holding us down' is just simply wrong. It's not an opinion, it's just incorrect.
    This is what you said at 8.17:

    " Now thanks to the moronic Brexiteers the whole of Europe is united. Against us. "

    So it was YOU who said that the EU was united against us - I merely responded to your comment

    This is what I said at 8.31:

    " Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.

    The ever more desperate 'Germany will need an ally against France and 'France will need an ally against Germany' fantasies from our politicians and Sir Humphreys from 1990 onwards.

    Not to mention the 'if we broaden Europe we will stop a deeper Europe' and 'if make a concession now we gain goodwill for the future' wishful thinking. "

    I did not state that Europe was 'holding us down' so please don't claim I did.

    Now what my comment was referencing was the failure of our politicians and Sir Humphreys over several decades to understand that the EU's policy of EverCloserUnion actually meant EverCloserUnion and the consequent failure of Britain policy towards the EU.

    I do not blame the EU or other European countries for this - the failure was one of Britain's political leadership.
    My comment about the EU being united against us NOW is fact by the nature of them being on the other side of the negotiating table as a united front.

    Your comment was referencing that prior to Brexit, the reason why Brexit happened was due to the EU being united against our interests. If I have misinterpreted that, I apologise.
    I do not think the EU was united against us ** but it was united in support of EverCloserUnion which was a policy which Britain didn't support and didn't understand.

    And it was the unwillingness of British governments to understand this and their fantasies that 'Europe was coming our way' which in large part has led to the current situation.

    ** How much the strategy of EverCloserUnion was through opposition to 'the Anglo-Saxons' / a US dominated world I don't know.

    Anyway no need for apologies or harsh words, its all a bit of fun :smile:
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited June 2019

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    The logic of Ireland's positioning is that No Deal is no big deal.

    No, it's that no deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal for Ireland would be one that left open the possibility of using the border for leverage.
    But the EU using the border for leverage against the U.K. is absolutely fine?
    Ireland is an EU member. Their interests are
    aligned.
    Indeed they are - against the British.

    That’s not a reason we should agree to it.
    And yet we signed the GFA...
    Which does not include the backstop...
    But does include cross-border organisation.
    Cross-border yes. The backstop isn't cross-border, all power is on the Irish side of the border and the UK side is just a colony.
    So use UK power to push back. And if pushing back doesn't work, then you don't have any power... :(

    One of the bad things about this is how badly it is exposing lack of power. One of the reasons why I was so Remainery was because I wanted power, not control. But Leavers mistook control for power and we are now horribly finding out that control with no power is useless. Hence the unending whining about being bullied. People with power do not whine about being bullied. They do the bullying.
    We have power, which is why we're not afraid to leave without a deal.

    Problem is the remainers who are afraid. It isn't a lack of power that is holding us back, it is an abundance of cowardice.
    This is a bit pantomime, Philip, if you don't mind me saying
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    rcs1000 said:

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.

    It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.
    I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.

    So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
    Translation: "I see I've succeeded in driving you mad."
    As Gallowgate seems unable to read either what I wrote or even what he has written himself he does seem to have problems.

    And anyone saying things like '9/11 truthers' has probably spent too much time on political websites.
    What is the right amount of time to spend on political websites? (Asking for a friend.)
    Less than the average PBer :wink:

    But it depends on the website.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    rcs1000 said:

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.

    It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.
    I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.

    So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
    Translation: "I see I've succeeded in driving you mad."
    As Gallowgate seems unable to read either what I wrote or even what he has written himself he does seem to have problems.

    And anyone saying things like '9/11 truthers' has probably spent too much time on political websites.
    What is the right amount of time to spend on political websites? (Asking for a friend.)
    When you start dreaming about a certain political website then you've been on it for too long.

    PS - Have you seen the Radiohead news?
    which political website would that be?

    esthermcveyforleader.com?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.

    It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.
    I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.

    So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
    What else is there to say? To state that the EU was united against us and was somehow 'holding us down' is just simply wrong. It's not an opinion, it's just incorrect.
    This is what you said at 8.17:

    " Now thanks

    This is what I said at 8.31:

    " Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.

    The ever more desperate 'Germany will need an ally against France and 'France will need an ally against Germany' fantasies from our politicians and Sir Humphreys from 1990 onwards.

    Not to mention the 'if we broaden Europe we will stop a deeper Europe' and 'if make a concession now we gain goodwill for the future' wishful thinking. "

    I did not state that Europe was 'holding us down' so please don't claim I did.

    Now what my comment was referencing was the failure of our politicians and Sir Humphreys over several decades to understand that the EU's policy of EverCloserUnion actually meant EverCloserUnion and the consequent failure of Britain policy towards the EU.

    I do not blame the EU or other European countries for this - the failure was one of Britain's political leadership.
    My comment about the EU being united against us NOW is fact by the nature of them being on the other side of the negotiating table as a united front.

    Your comment was referencing that prior to Brexit, the reason why Brexit happened was due to the EU being united against our interests. If I have misinterpreted that, I apologise.
    I do not think the EU was united against us ** but it was united in support of EverCloserUnion which was a policy which Britain didn't support and didn't understand.

    And it was the unwillingness of British governments to understand this and their fantasies that 'Europe was coming our way' which in large part has led to the current situation.

    ** How much the strategy of EverCloserUnion was through opposition to 'the Anglo-Saxons' / a US dominated world I don't know.

    Anyway no need for apologies or harsh words, its all a bit of fun :smile:
    You are projecting your own views. In the 70s the British government was every bit as committed to ever closer union as the other members. The dialogue of the deaf only crept in much later on.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    https://twitter.com/matt_gillow/status/1138492573234937859

    “Millions of people” ffs. How out of touch is she?

    It is millions. That's a matter of fact.

    Then again you're a lefty. Not particularly keen on being in touch with facts are you?
    Equally it's millions less than it used to be.

    In 2016/17 anyone earning over £43,000 was paying higher rate tax at 40%
    in 2019/20 you need to earn £50,000 (outside of Scotland) to be paying higher rate tax - an increase from £46350 in 2018/19)..

    And millions of more that it was in previous years too. But either way the statement was that millions of people pay it and millions of people do. Just shows how out of touch with reality Gallowgate is FFS.
    The reasoning for £80k, is that that’s what the starting point for the 40% rate would be, if it had risen with inflation since it was introduced by Lawson in (IIRC) 1988.
    The upper rate started at £19,300 in 1988.

    Using the bank of England inflation calculator that 19 grand would be £50,000 today.

    Which the current higher rate tax band is.
    Facts? Reality? How very (Rorarian? Roryist? Stewartite? Jacobite?) old-fashioned of you!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,956

    rcs1000 said:

    Brexit is a consequence of the EU being united against us rather than a cause.

    It's like listening to 9/11 truthers. Jesus Christ.
    I see you're unable to respond to what I wrote.

    So instead you make an imbecilic comment.
    Translation: "I see I've succeeded in driving you mad."
    As Gallowgate seems unable to read either what I wrote or even what he has written himself he does seem to have problems.

    And anyone saying things like '9/11 truthers' has probably spent too much time on political websites.
    What is the right amount of time to spend on political websites? (Asking for a friend.)
    When you start dreaming about a certain political website then you've been on it for too long.

    PS - Have you seen the Radiohead news?
    which political website would that be?

    esthermcveyforleader.com?
    markrecklessforpm.com
This discussion has been closed.