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  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    HYUFD is the new Plato.
    Utterly bonkers on high rotate.

    He called it right on Boris, though.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sarah James on R4, hopelessly trying to defend Labour’s new Brexit nuance.

    Asked the question whether in a referendum Labour would be Leave or Remain, first there is a pause. Then an answer beginning with the words “It depends...”. Then a qualification that they would probably be Remain “at this stage”.

    Asked how Labour could negotiate hard for a new deal and then campaign against it in a referendum, she was stumped.

    It’s as though Labour wants to donate voters to the Lib Dems and the Greens.
    And the Scottish National Party.

    Although Brexit is not the primary determinant of voting behaviour, it is still important for many Scots voters. A lot of SLab empathisers are totally disgusted with their party. Abstention could be high within some voter groups.
    The remnants of SLAB are unionists. They wouldn't back the SNP.
    They would go Lib Dem, if the LDs have the good sense not to elect a London-based leader.
    Bizarre as it may sound, if you look carefully at the data, there is *still* a significant minority of the much-depleted SLab vote which is pro-independence. Although the numbers are not high, these people could be decisive in one or two tight seats.
    not a Scottish subsample surely...
    Better still, a subsample of a Scottish subsample!
    Have you ever tried to teach an old dog new tricks?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Didn't JFK hand-pick David Ormsby-Gore as our man in DC?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,578
    tlg86 said:

    HYUFD is the new Plato.
    Utterly bonkers on high rotate.

    He called it right on Boris, though.
    Just as Plato called it right on Trump.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,403
    Rather a brilliant strategy by Labour to get the writers from The Thick of It to come up with the new Brexit policy.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    edited July 2019
    IanB2 said:

    Wishful thinking from Rudd; surely the Tories are too far gone:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/i-have-debated-boris-and-jeremy-can-win-this-rvp5hvnsr

    Most have already voted. Even if Jeremy turned up and said he would abolish income tax and Boris turned up advocating eating the first born, Boris still has enough votes in the post....
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    I don't see what you gain, rhetorically, from using the term diehard Remainer. You could add easily and as meaninglessly take any other minority societal group. Dentists, EDLers, redheads, etc.

    HYUFD speaks fluent Telegraph, with a Mail accent.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    malcolmg said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sarah James on R4, hopelessly trying to defend Labour’s new Brexit nuance.

    Asked the question whether in a referendum Labour would be Leave or Remain, first there is a pause. Then an answer beginning with the words “It depends...”. Then a qualification that they would probably be Remain “at this stage”.

    Asked how Labour could negotiate hard for a new deal and then campaign against it in a referendum, she was stumped.

    It’s as though Labour wants to donate voters to the Lib Dems and the Greens.
    And the Scottish National Party.

    Although Brexit is not the primary determinant of voting behaviour, it is still important for many Scots voters. A lot of SLab empathisers are totally disgusted with their party. Abstention could be high within some voter groups.
    The remnants of SLAB are unionists. They wouldn't back the SNP.
    They would go Lib Dem, if the LDs have the good sense not to elect a London-based leader.
    You would need to be brain dead to vote Lib Dem in Scotland

    I can see the LDs getting a majority of the Unionist vote in Scotland at the next GE. Is that the same thing? ;-)

  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    I don't see what you gain, rhetorically, from using the term diehard Remainer. You could add easily and as meaninglessly take any other minority societal group. Dentists, EDLers, redheads, etc.

    HYUFD speaks fluent Telegraph, with a Mail accent.

    With a hint of Expressese.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Rather a brilliant strategy by Labour to get the writers from The Thick of It to come up with the new Brexit policy.

    Fact is often stranger than fiction. Take a look at the next prime minister of Her Majesty’s Government.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,722
    Scott_P said:

    Cameron was the first to mess up Brexit by preventing the senior Civil Service from doing it's job before an election; a 'what if'

    If Cameron had allowed the civil service to prepare for No Deal, Brexiteers would have whined even more loudly about Project Fear.

    Cameron couldn't legislate for what those who came after would do
    AIUI, before an election a select group 'war game' what the Opposition might do if elected. Again AIUI that information isn't available to the 'defending' Government, and it isn't published. The idea is to get Sir Humphrey and perhaps Bernard to a position where they can anticipate the questions they'll be asked, and the actions they'll be asked to perform.
    Presumably there's a group somewhere in a cellar in Whitehall trying to guess what both Hunt and Boris might actually do in various circumstances.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    I don't see what you gain, rhetorically, from using the term diehard Remainer. You could add easily and as meaninglessly take any other minority societal group. Dentists, EDLers, redheads, etc.

    HYUFD speaks fluent Telegraph, with a Mail accent.

    With a hint of Expressese.
    You'd rather he spoke Scottish with a chip shop on each shoulder?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sarah James on R4, hopelessly trying to defend Labour’s new Brexit nuance.

    Asked the question whether in a referendum Labour would be Leave or Remain, first there is a pause. Then an answer beginning with the words “It depends...”. Then a qualification that they would probably be Remain “at this stage”.

    Asked how Labour could negotiate hard for a new deal and then campaign against it in a referendum, she was stumped.

    It’s as though Labour wants to donate voters to the Lib Dems and the Greens.
    Its too little, too late.

    If Labour want to credibly run a different Brexit policy, they have to change leader first to someone like Watson or Phillips.
    The most underreported group in British politics at present comprises those people who voted Labour in 2017 and who are now not supporting them. That makes up 15-20% of the population. But while there are plenty of Labour loyalists still making their views known and plenty of people who never liked Labour making their views known, public statements from members of this very sizeable group are really quite hard to come by.

    They’ll be tactical voters by and large, and most will be casting their ballots to prevent Johnson winning.

  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    I don't see what you gain, rhetorically, from using the term diehard Remainer. You could add easily and as meaninglessly take any other minority societal group. Dentists, EDLers, redheads, etc.
    Remainers are a majority group.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Disgraceful. And only a few weeks after the D-Day memorials. Have we learnt nothing?
    To listen to them you’d think they had been first on the beaches.
    Quite a significant number weren’t even born at the time of WW2, I imagine.

    U.K. Ambassador Kim Darroch was disinvited from a dinner that U.S. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin is hosting Monday with President Donald Trump and the emir of Qatar, according to a U.S. official.

    https://time.com/5622419/trump-disinvites-uk-envoy-kim-darroch/

    Really, why wouldn’t we do exactly the same thing to the US Ambassador here. Politely make it clear that if the Trump government is going to behave with such discourtesy then we will respond in kind. For every freezing out etc there will be an equivalent response here.

    Our ambassador has done nothing wrong and yet, because of the behaviour of others, is likely going to have his career ruined. He ought to be promoted so as to make clear to the leaker and anyone else hoping to profit by their misbehaviour that they won’t prosper.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,089
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    I don't see what you gain, rhetorically, from using the term diehard Remainer. You could add easily and as meaninglessly take any other minority societal group. Dentists, EDLers, redheads, etc.
    diehard dentists?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    Rather a brilliant strategy by Labour to get the writers from The Thick of It to come up with the new Brexit policy.

    Dark, sweary humour. It's all the Labour Party offers politics today.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:
    Ex civil servant supports civil service shock.

    Doesn’t dispute Trumps point that May and the Civil Service borked up Brexit I note...
    Nick is right here
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,089

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    I don't see what you gain, rhetorically, from using the term diehard Remainer. You could add easily and as meaninglessly take any other minority societal group. Dentists, EDLers, redheads, etc.

    HYUFD speaks fluent Telegraph, with a Mail accent.

    With a hint of Expressese.
    And a healthy dose of BBC-style summer repeats.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Cyclefree said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Disgraceful. And only a few weeks after the D-Day memorials. Have we learnt nothing?
    To listen to them you’d think they had been first on the beaches.
    Quite a significant number weren’t even born at the time of WW2, I imagine.

    U.K. Ambassador Kim Darroch was disinvited from a dinner that U.S. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin is hosting Monday with President Donald Trump and the emir of Qatar, according to a U.S. official.

    https://time.com/5622419/trump-disinvites-uk-envoy-kim-darroch/

    Really, why wouldn’t we do exactly the same thing to the US Ambassador here. Politely make it clear that if the Trump government is going to behave with such discourtesy then we will respond in kind. For every freezing out etc there will be an equivalent response here.

    Our ambassador has done nothing wrong and yet, because of the behaviour of others, is likely going to have his career ruined. He ought to be promoted so as to make clear to the leaker and anyone else hoping to profit by their misbehaviour that they won’t prosper.
    It’s a disgrace that people aren’t condemning Trump from the rooftops for his appalling intrusion into our internal affairs.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal or any form of the Brexit 52% voted for and refuse to respect democracy then diehard Remainers should not be surprised extremism begets extremism.

    Plus support for an Australian style points system as Boris wants is hardly Fascism
    "Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement" which would otherwise have passed?
    The ERG
    That's a lie. It would still have failed with the ERG. Why do you keep peddling this lie or can you not count?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    tlg86 said:

    Didn't JFK hand-pick David Ormsby-Gore as our man in DC?
    He knew JFK and was already an MP and Minister of State in the Foreign Office, so might have been a logical choice from a UK pov anyway. I doubt he was "hand picked by JFK."

    Meanwhile, I wonder why the Mail is spinning "the Russians dun it" or "disgruntled Civil Servant" when "ambitious politician in the FCO' is at least, if not more, likely....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Cyclefree said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Disgraceful. And only a few weeks after the D-Day memorials. Have we learnt nothing?
    To listen to them you’d think they had been first on the beaches.
    Quite a significant number weren’t even born at the time of WW2, I imagine.

    U.K. Ambassador Kim Darroch was disinvited from a dinner that U.S. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin is hosting Monday with President Donald Trump and the emir of Qatar, according to a U.S. official.

    https://time.com/5622419/trump-disinvites-uk-envoy-kim-darroch/

    Really, why wouldn’t we do exactly the same thing to the US Ambassador here.
    Because we're grown ups?

    But if Darroch is PNG'd then we should return the compliment.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,089
    edited July 2019

    On topic, it's worth noting the £6k looking to back the election this year at 2.32.

    Noted.
    And the ability to lay 2020 or later at 1.82 on the monthly market
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,089

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal or any form of the Brexit 52% voted for and refuse to respect democracy then diehard Remainers should not be surprised extremism begets extremism.

    Plus support for an Australian style points system as Boris wants is hardly Fascism
    "Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement" which would otherwise have passed?
    The ERG
    That's a lie. It would still have failed with the ERG. Why do you keep peddling this lie or can you not count?
    Because its the truth. Had they all got behind the deal from the beginning it would have carried.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Cyclefree said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Disgraceful. And only a few weeks after the D-Day memorials. Have we learnt nothing?
    To listen to them you’d think they had been first on the beaches.
    Quite a significant number weren’t even born at the time of WW2, I imagine.

    U.K. Ambassador Kim Darroch was disinvited from a dinner that U.S. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin is hosting Monday with President Donald Trump and the emir of Qatar, according to a U.S. official.

    https://time.com/5622419/trump-disinvites-uk-envoy-kim-darroch/

    Really, why wouldn’t we do exactly the same thing to the US Ambassador here. Politely make it clear that if the Trump government is going to behave with such discourtesy then we will respond in kind. For every freezing out etc there will be an equivalent response here.

    Our ambassador has done nothing wrong and yet, because of the behaviour of others, is likely going to have his career ruined. He ought to be promoted so as to make clear to the leaker and anyone else hoping to profit by their misbehaviour that they won’t prosper.
    What would count as promotion for the Ambassador to the USA?

    Given that one of the main jobs of that ambassador is to gain influence for the UK with the world's most powerful nation's government, fairly or unfairly the incumbent is now damaged goods (unfairly, obviously). That would be the case even if the present president wasn't a thin-skinned egotist. He will need to be replaced. The president doesn't get to choose the replacement but he is within his rights (even if he is being an arse about it) if he doesn't want to deal with someone who doesn't respect him.

    A proper leak inquiry should be conducted and the culprit should be strung up by their nether regions. Leaking such confidential briefings for partisan advantage is treacherous.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Disgraceful. And only a few weeks after the D-Day memorials. Have we learnt nothing?
    To listen to them you’d think they had been first on the beaches.
    Quite a significant number weren’t even born at the time of WW2, I imagine.

    U.K. Ambassador Kim Darroch was disinvited from a dinner that U.S. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin is hosting Monday with President Donald Trump and the emir of Qatar, according to a U.S. official.

    https://time.com/5622419/trump-disinvites-uk-envoy-kim-darroch/

    Really, why wouldn’t we do exactly the same thing to the US Ambassador here. Politely make it clear that if the Trump government is going to behave with such discourtesy then we will respond in kind. For every freezing out etc there will be an equivalent response here.

    Our ambassador has done nothing wrong and yet, because of the behaviour of others, is likely going to have his career ruined. He ought to be promoted so as to make clear to the leaker and anyone else hoping to profit by their misbehaviour that they won’t prosper.
    It’s a disgrace that people aren’t condemning Trump from the rooftops for his appalling intrusion into our internal affairs.
    Just imagine the furore if the EU told us to sack someone .

    The Leave hypocrisy really is nauseating .
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Things always look extreme when you only cite the extreme positions. As always it depends on the phrasing of the question and how the respondent interprets it

    - immigration: banning immigration is extreme. Thinking the current balance of cost and benefit is wrong is not
    - Islam: militant Islam is. More philosophically if you look at the social polling among even moderate Muslims on homosexuality or the rights of women, I’d say their views could be seen as “a threat to the British way of life”
    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    Labour and the unions seem to be moving to a referendum and remain just at the time their London mps are under a real threat from the Lib Dems.

    I do believe most labour members do want to remain in the EU but with labour plummeting in the polls there is a very real chance many labour mps want to neuter Corbyn's extreme policies and remaining in Europe would do that at a stroke.

    As far as brexiteers are concerned time is not on their side nor is a Boris lead GE a cure all as most brexit supporting labour mps are standing down, thereby futher reducing brexit support in the HOC

    I do think labour are shutting the gate after the horse has bolted as the Lib Dems are the trusted stop brexit brand and do not carry the anti west marxist baggage of Corbyn and his associates

    Also Corbyn is facing the fallout from this weeks Panorama and goodness only knows what the equality and human rights commission will conclude.

    Labour is not in a good place almost completely down to Corbyn and his associates. Had Corbyn been pro remain brexit would already have died
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Things always look extreme when you only cite the extreme positions. As always it depends on the phrasing of the question and how the respondent interprets it

    - immigration: banning immigration is extreme. Thinking the current balance of cost and benefit is wrong is not
    - Islam: militant Islam is. More philosophically if you look at the social polling among even moderate Muslims on homosexuality or the rights of women, I’d say their views could be seen as “a threat to the British way of life”
    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”
    Anyone who advocates suspending parliament is beneath contempt.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    edited July 2019
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal or any form of the Brexit 52% voted for and refuse to respect democracy then diehard Remainers should not be surprised extremism begets extremism.

    Plus support for an Australian style points system as Boris wants is hardly Fascism
    "Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement" which would otherwise have passed?
    The ERG
    That's a lie. It would still have failed with the ERG. Why do you keep peddling this lie or can you not count?
    Because its the truth. Had they all got behind the deal from the beginning it would have carried.
    It's not the f*cking truth.

    The DUP were set against May's Deal.

    Even with ALL Tories onboard - yes, I'm looking at you Dominic Grieve - it needed Labour votes to overcome the DUP. And how many of them were sticking their heads above the parapet to be the one marked down in the history books as having made Brexit happen?

    The ERG were a noisy irrelevence - apart from giving spineless Labour MPs cover for reneging on promises made to their voters.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    For once, I agree with Polly:

    I have watched Damian Green at sparsely attended Tory conference fringe meetings, together with Anna Soubry, nobly upholding the pro-European cause with great eloquence and passion. Soubry honourably broke with her party, but Green has gone grovelling to Johnson on television, oozing with unseemly sycophancy.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/09/boris-johnson-tories-europeans-parliament?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    I don't see what you gain, rhetorically, from using the term diehard Remainer. You could add easily and as meaninglessly take any other minority societal group. Dentists, EDLers, redheads, etc.

    HYUFD speaks fluent Telegraph, with a Mail accent.

    The Telegraph has gone full Boris. I was reading the letters, editorial, and op-ed at the weekend, and it was genuinely disturbing, as it was wall to wall nonsense. The stuff written was every bit as nuts as the the rubbish you get from the most fervent members of the Corbyn cult or from Trump redhats.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    tlg86 said:

    Didn't JFK hand-pick David Ormsby-Gore as our man in DC?
    He knew JFK and was already an MP and Minister of State in the Foreign Office, so might have been a logical choice from a UK pov anyway. I doubt he was "hand picked by JFK."

    Meanwhile, I wonder why the Mail is spinning "the Russians dun it" or "disgruntled Civil Servant" when "ambitious politician in the FCO' is at least, if not more, likely....
    Maybe because MOS has sailed to close to the wind in publishing the documents anyway and to protect their source. Why can’t they be charged with treason?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sarah James on R4, hopelessly trying to defend Labour’s new Brexit nuance.

    Asked the question whether in a referendum Labour would be Leave or Remain, first there is a pause. Then an answer beginning with the words “It depends...”. Then a qualification that they would probably be Remain “at this stage”.

    Asked how Labour could negotiate hard for a new deal and then campaign against it in a referendum, she was stumped.

    It’s as though Labour wants to donate voters to the Lib Dems and the Greens.
    Its too little, too late.

    If Labour want to credibly run a different Brexit policy, they have to change leader first to someone like Watson or Phillips.
    The most underreported group in British politics at present comprises those people who voted Labour in 2017 and who are now not supporting them. That makes up 15-20% of the population. But while there are plenty of Labour loyalists still making their views known and plenty of people who never liked Labour making their views known, public statements from members of this very sizeable group are really quite hard to come by.

    They’ll be tactical voters by and large, and most will be casting their ballots to prevent Johnson winning.

    10% of 2017 Labour Leave voters voting for a Boris led Tories with Ashcroft yesterday and over 20% for the Brexit Party
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    glw said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    I don't see what you gain, rhetorically, from using the term diehard Remainer. You could add easily and as meaninglessly take any other minority societal group. Dentists, EDLers, redheads, etc.

    HYUFD speaks fluent Telegraph, with a Mail accent.

    The Telegraph has gone full Boris. I was reading the letters, editorial, and op-ed at the weekend, and it was genuinely disturbing, as it was wall to wall nonsense. The stuff written was every bit as nuts as the the rubbish you get from the most fervent members of the Corbyn cult or from Trump redhats.
    Wont buy the Mail its a nasty paper, nor the Telegraph whilst run by the Barclay bros
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,785
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal or any form of the Brexit 52% voted for and refuse to respect democracy then diehard Remainers should not be surprised extremism begets extremism.

    Plus support for an Australian style points system as Boris wants is hardly Fascism
    "Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement" which would otherwise have passed?
    The ERG
    That's a lie. It would still have failed with the ERG. Why do you keep peddling this lie or can you not count?
    Because its the truth. Had they all got behind the deal from the beginning it would have carried.
    Can anyone tell me how the result of the Brexit votes varied from party manifestos, statements, or voter expectations in GE 2017:

    The Remain manifesto parties have voted Remain
    The Labour party has pushed its Brexit and voted against a Brexit it was clear that it was going to vote against and against No Deal.
    The Conservative party had a manifesto that included the possibility of No Deal and gave plentiful cover for the ERG led split.
    Most of the handful of MPs who have eschewed this line, Tory Remainers and Labour Hard Brexiteers will have given indication of this in their personal election literature.

    No, sorry, I'm afraid the Brexit impasse is democracy to its core, specifically the democracy of GE17.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Charles said:


    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”

    It is literally suspending democracy. You can dress it up however you like, but you are advocating suspending the body that is democratically elected to achieve your aim. Note, that body was elected after the referendum result, so you don't even have that excuse.

    The Conservative party is now controlled by enemies of democracy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    I’m not expecting an early election for the simple reason that the Conservatives would lose and lose badly.

    According to last night's Comres poll while May and Hunt see a Corbyn minority government, Boris gives a Tory majority government
    According to polls in April 2017, the Conservatives were heading for a majority of 200. I read very little into hypothetical polls at a time when they are very volatile. It is better to look at how an election campaign might play out.

    And strategically the Conservatives' position is awful. If the election is made about Brexit, the Brexit party is going to peel off a chunk of Conservative vote everywhere while Brecon & Radnor is showing that Remain-supporting parties are gearing up to work together in the short term in the seats where it counts.

    The Conservatives would be lucky if they only lost 100 seats.
    If the election is about Boris much of the Brexit Party vote collapses behind Boris while the Remain vote is split between Labour, LD and Green, Plaid and SNP
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    For once, I agree with Polly:

    I have watched Damian Green at sparsely attended Tory conference fringe meetings, together with Anna Soubry, nobly upholding the pro-European cause with great eloquence and passion. Soubry honourably broke with her party, but Green has gone grovelling to Johnson on television, oozing with unseemly sycophancy.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/09/boris-johnson-tories-europeans-parliament?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Porn addict, groper, and now sell-out.
    Pity Mrs Green.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sarah James on R4, hopelessly trying to defend Labour’s new Brexit nuance.

    Asked the question whether in a referendum Labour would be Leave or Remain, first there is a pause. Then an answer beginning with the words “It depends...”. Then a qualification that they would probably be Remain “at this stage”.

    Asked how Labour could negotiate hard for a new deal and then campaign against it in a referendum, she was stumped.

    It’s as though Labour wants to donate voters to the Lib Dems and the Greens.
    Its too little, too late.

    If Labour want to credibly run a different Brexit policy, they have to change leader first to someone like Watson or Phillips.
    The most underreported group in British politics at present comprises those people who voted Labour in 2017 and who are now not supporting them. That makes up 15-20% of the population. But while there are plenty of Labour loyalists still making their views known and plenty of people who never liked Labour making their views known, public statements from members of this very sizeable group are really quite hard to come by.

    They’ll be tactical voters by and large, and most will be casting their ballots to prevent Johnson winning.

    10% of 2017 Labour Leave voters voting for a Boris led Tories with Ashcroft yesterday and over 20% for the Brexit Party

    Yep, a minority within a minority.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal or any form of the Brexit 52% voted for and refuse to respect democracy then diehard Remainers should not be surprised extremism begets extremism.

    Plus support for an Australian style points system as Boris wants is hardly Fascism
    "Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement" which would otherwise have passed?
    The ERG
    Most Leave MPs voted for the Withdrawal Agreement, most Remain MPs opposed it, certainly on the opposition benches
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,882



    What would count as promotion for the Ambassador to the USA?


    Permanent Under Secretary at the FCO would count but Trump wouldn't stand for it. Boris is going to have to fire him completely or give him a comedy job like Commissioner for South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,578

    Cyclefree said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Disgraceful. And only a few weeks after the D-Day memorials. Have we learnt nothing?
    To listen to them you’d think they had been first on the beaches.
    Quite a significant number weren’t even born at the time of WW2, I imagine.

    U.K. Ambassador Kim Darroch was disinvited from a dinner that U.S. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin is hosting Monday with President Donald Trump and the emir of Qatar, according to a U.S. official.

    https://time.com/5622419/trump-disinvites-uk-envoy-kim-darroch/

    Really, why wouldn’t we do exactly the same thing to the US Ambassador here. Politely make it clear that if the Trump government is going to behave with such discourtesy then we will respond in kind. For every freezing out etc there will be an equivalent response here.

    Our ambassador has done nothing wrong and yet, because of the behaviour of others, is likely going to have his career ruined. He ought to be promoted so as to make clear to the leaker and anyone else hoping to profit by their misbehaviour that they won’t prosper.
    What would count as promotion for the Ambassador to the USA?

    Given that one of the main jobs of that ambassador is to gain influence for the UK with the world's most powerful nation's government, fairly or unfairly the incumbent is now damaged goods (unfairly, obviously). That would be the case even if the present president wasn't a thin-skinned egotist. He will need to be replaced. The president doesn't get to choose the replacement but he is within his rights (even if he is being an arse about it) if he doesn't want to deal with someone who doesn't respect him.

    A proper leak inquiry should be conducted and the culprit should be strung up by their nether regions. Leaking such confidential briefings for partisan advantage is treacherous.
    Ambassador to China ?

    Agreed about the enquiry.
    There is absolutely no defensible motive for the leak. I fear the whole thing will be buried once Johnson is in No.10.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    Charles said:


    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”

    It is literally suspending democracy. You can dress it up however you like, but you are advocating suspending the body that is democratically elected to achieve your aim. Note, that body was elected after the referendum result, so you don't even have that excuse.

    The Conservative party is now controlled by enemies of democracy.

    Always worth reminding ourselves that in 2017 voters gave a majority of their votes to parties that rejected (and reject) a No Deal Brexit.

  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal or any form of the Brexit 52% voted for and refuse to respect democracy then diehard Remainers should not be surprised extremism begets extremism.

    Plus support for an Australian style points system as Boris wants is hardly Fascism
    "Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement" which would otherwise have passed?
    The ERG
    That's a lie. It would still have failed with the ERG. Why do you keep peddling this lie or can you not count?
    Because its the truth. Had they all got behind the deal from the beginning it would have carried.
    It's not the f*cking truth.

    The DUP were set against May's Deal.

    Even with ALL Tories onboard - yes, I'm looking at you Dominic Grieve - it needed Labour votes to overcome the DUP. And how many of them were sticking their heads above the parapet to be the one marked down in the history books as having made Brexit happen?

    The ERG were a noisy irrelevence - apart from giving spineless Labour MPs cover for reneging on promises made to their voters.
    The government failed to pas the WA it was nobody else’s fault that the majority on which they claim to govern failed to deliver. It is not the responsibility of MPs in other party’s to provide support to overcome the governing party’s rebel’s.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,089

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal or any form of the Brexit 52% voted for and refuse to respect democracy then diehard Remainers should not be surprised extremism begets extremism.

    Plus support for an Australian style points system as Boris wants is hardly Fascism
    "Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement" which would otherwise have passed?
    The ERG
    That's a lie. It would still have failed with the ERG. Why do you keep peddling this lie or can you not count?
    Because its the truth. Had they all got behind the deal from the beginning it would have carried.
    It's not the f*cking truth.

    The DUP were set against May's Deal.

    Even with ALL Tories onboard - yes, I'm looking at you Dominic Grieve - it needed Labour votes to overcome the DUP. And how many of them were sticking their heads above the parapet to be the one marked down in the history books as having made Brexit happen?

    The ERG were a noisy irrelevence - apart from giving spineless Labour MPs cover for reneging on promises made to their voters.
    If you think you can take how MPs voted in one scenario and drop it into an entirely different one, you don't understand politics.

    That ought to be obvious from the three votes on the same deal that have already been held, with lots of MPs changing their vote - not because the proposition had changed, but because the political climate had.

    A united Tory party behind the deal would have got enough opposition support to get through at the first attempt. Instead, the ERG trashed their own side's Brexit.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal or any form of the Brexit 52% voted for and refuse to respect democracy then diehard Remainers should not be surprised extremism begets extremism.

    Plus support for an Australian style points system as Boris wants is hardly Fascism
    "Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement" which would otherwise have passed?
    The ERG
    That's a lie. It would still have failed with the ERG. Why do you keep peddling this lie or can you not count?
    Because its the truth. Had they all got behind the deal from the beginning it would have carried.
    It's not the f*cking truth.

    The DUP were set against May's Deal.

    Even with ALL Tories onboard - yes, I'm looking at you Dominic Grieve - it needed Labour votes to overcome the DUP. And how many of them were sticking their heads above the parapet to be the one marked down in the history books as having made Brexit happen?

    The ERG were a noisy irrelevence - apart from giving spineless Labour MPs cover for reneging on promises made to their voters.
    Nope.

    Brexit required Brexiters to get in behind it.
    The ERG were the pivotal actor to stop it happening. They provided cover for Labour Leavers *and* the DUP, in a way those two other groups could not have.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    Nigelb said:

    Agreed about the enquiry.
    There is absolutely no defensible motive for the leak. I fear the whole thing will be buried once Johnson is in No.10.

    I hope May is cracking the whip to get results before Boris takes over.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    Charles said:


    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”

    It is literally suspending democracy. You can dress it up however you like, but you are advocating suspending the body that is democratically elected to achieve your aim. Note, that body was elected after the referendum result, so you don't even have that excuse.

    The Conservative party is now controlled by enemies of democracy.

    Always worth reminding ourselves that in 2017 voters gave a majority of their votes to parties that rejected (and reject) a No Deal Brexit.

    Yet a majority of votes to parties that backed Brexit, the Tories, UKIP and Corbyn Labour
  • Pro_Rata said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal or any form of the Brexit 52% voted for and refuse to respect democracy then diehard Remainers should not be surprised extremism begets extremism.

    Plus support for an Australian style points system as Boris wants is hardly Fascism
    "Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement" which would otherwise have passed?
    The ERG
    That's a lie. It would still have failed with the ERG. Why do you keep peddling this lie or can you not count?
    Because its the truth. Had they all got behind the deal from the beginning it would have carried.
    Can anyone tell me how the result of the Brexit votes varied from party manifestos, statements, or voter expectations in GE 2017:

    The Remain manifesto parties have voted Remain
    The Labour party has pushed its Brexit and voted against a Brexit it was clear that it was going to vote against and against No Deal.
    The Conservative party had a manifesto that included the possibility of No Deal and gave plentiful cover for the ERG led split.
    Most of the handful of MPs who have eschewed this line, Tory Remainers and Labour Hard Brexiteers will have given indication of this in their personal election literature.

    No, sorry, I'm afraid the Brexit impasse is democracy to its core, specifically the democracy of GE17.
    So, for shame Brisky, I fact-checked this (well RE:labour anyway)

    You passed.

    The fudge was in the manifesto-

    https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal or any form of the Brexit 52% voted for and refuse to respect democracy then diehard Remainers should not be surprised extremism begets extremism.

    Plus support for an Australian style points system as Boris wants is hardly Fascism
    "Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement" which would otherwise have passed?
    The ERG
    That's a lie. It would still have failed with the ERG. Why do you keep peddling this lie or can you not count?
    Because its the truth. Had they all got behind the deal from the beginning it would have carried.
    Do the maths, no it wouldn't. Not without others voting differently too.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    For once, I agree with Polly:

    I have watched Damian Green at sparsely attended Tory conference fringe meetings, together with Anna Soubry, nobly upholding the pro-European cause with great eloquence and passion. Soubry honourably broke with her party, but Green has gone grovelling to Johnson on television, oozing with unseemly sycophancy.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/09/boris-johnson-tories-europeans-parliament?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

    Pity Mrs Green.
    Ms Alicia Collinson can look after herself!
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Writing from a Portuguese resort, Andy Wigmore promises to purge the civil service.

    https://twitter.com/andywigmore/status/1148498063067160577?s=21
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Cyclefree said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Disgraceful. And only a few weeks after the D-Day memorials. Have we learnt nothing?
    To listen to them you’d think they had been first on the beaches.
    Quite a significant number weren’t even born at the time of WW2, I imagine.

    U.K. Ambassador Kim Darroch was disinvited from a dinner that U.S. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin is hosting Monday with President Donald Trump and the emir of Qatar, according to a U.S. official.

    https://time.com/5622419/trump-disinvites-uk-envoy-kim-darroch/

    Really, why wouldn’t we do exactly the same thing to the US Ambassador here. Politely make it clear that if the Trump government is going to behave with such discourtesy then we will respond in kind. For every freezing out etc there will be an equivalent response here.

    Our ambassador has done nothing wrong and yet, because of the behaviour of others, is likely going to have his career ruined. He ought to be promoted so as to make clear to the leaker and anyone else hoping to profit by their misbehaviour that they won’t prosper.
    Difficult to promote from his current role though
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited July 2019
    Really, why wouldn’t we do exactly the same thing to the US Ambassador here. Politely make it clear that if the Trump government is going to behave with such discourtesy then we will respond in kind. For every freezing out etc there will be an equivalent response here.

    Our ambassador has done nothing wrong and yet, because of the behaviour of others, is likely going to have his career ruined. He ought to be promoted so as to make clear to the leaker and anyone else hoping to profit by their misbehaviour that they won’t prosper.

    What would count as promotion for the Ambassador to the USA?

    Given that one of the main jobs of that ambassador is to gain influence for the UK with the world's most powerful nation's government, fairly or unfairly the incumbent is now damaged goods (unfairly, obviously). That would be the case even if the present president wasn't a thin-skinned egotist. He will need to be replaced. The president doesn't get to choose the replacement but he is within his rights (even if he is being an arse about it) if he doesn't want to deal with someone who doesn't respect him.

    A proper leak inquiry should be conducted and the culprit should be strung up by their nether regions. Leaking such confidential briefings for partisan advantage is treacherous.


    Here ends the entry from Mr Meeks, and I screwed the blockquotes....



    The problem is the culture that has developed where respect isn't shown to the position of the President of USA. It has become de rigueur to be rude and insulting about Trump. I understand why, but in offending and insulting him we are offending the USA. The leaker may have just thought this is another bash Trump moment or opportunity and not thought of the potential consequences for the Ambassador to USA.

    I really don't think it serves anyone well to fall to the depths of ritual insult and diminution of Trump and his personality. It reflects no better on those making the insults than the target they have in the cross hairs.

    There are better ways of making the points than the rather childish competition to see who can insult him the most. If we grew up as a nation that would be a great advancement and rid us of this rather annoying and counter productive willy waving virtue signalling stupidity.

    We know Trump is, to be polite, flawed, unpopular and lacking a lot of the qualities that we think a President should have. That doesn't excuse our bad behaviour.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,882
    Nigelb said:



    Ambassador to China ?

    My father was posted at the DC embassy in the early-mid 80s and he always maintained that anything else after is a step down and a big one (he got sent to Zaire after DC - haha). The ambassador's residence on Massachusetts Ave. alone makes it a glittering prize.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Disgraceful. And only a few weeks after the D-Day memorials. Have we learnt nothing?
    To listen to them you’d think they had been first on the beaches.
    Quite a significant number weren’t even born at the time of WW2, I imagine.

    U.K. Ambassador Kim Darroch was disinvited from a dinner that U.S. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin is hosting Monday with President Donald Trump and the emir of Qatar, according to a U.S. official.

    https://time.com/5622419/trump-disinvites-uk-envoy-kim-darroch/

    Really, why wouldn’t we do exactly the same thing to the US Ambassador here. Politely make it clear that if the Trump government is going to behave with such discourtesy then we will respond in kind. For every freezing out etc there will be an equivalent response here.

    Our ambassador has done nothing wrong and yet, because of the behaviour of others, is likely going to have his career ruined. He ought to be promoted so as to make clear to the leaker and anyone else hoping to profit by their misbehaviour that they won’t prosper.
    It’s a disgrace that people aren’t condemning Trump from the rooftops for his appalling intrusion into our internal affairs.
    It's a grey area. The ambassador to America is quite literally an external not an internal affair to begin with. All ambassadors are external to the UK. If the USA chooses to make Darroch persona non grata then that is their right and is an internal American affair. America is the host country and they have every right to make anyone they want persona non grata

    Trump is being utterly pathetic here but that is his right. And Americans should judge him for being thin skinned and a pathetic weasel. But let's imagine the shoe was on the other foot and on something more serious.

    Let's imagine leaks showed the Russian Ambassador to the UK was involved in the Skripal affair. We would have every right to make the Russian Ambassador persona non grata and even to expel them.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,089

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal or any form of the Brexit 52% voted for and refuse to respect democracy then diehard Remainers should not be surprised extremism begets extremism.

    Plus support for an Australian style points system as Boris wants is hardly Fascism
    "Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement" which would otherwise have passed?
    The ERG
    That's a lie. It would still have failed with the ERG. Why do you keep peddling this lie or can you not count?
    Because its the truth. Had they all got behind the deal from the beginning it would have carried.
    Do the maths, no it wouldn't. Not without others voting differently too.
    As I said below, if you think you can take a count in one political scenario and drop it into another, you don't understand politics.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal or any form of the Brexit 52% voted for and refuse to respect democracy then diehard Remainers should not be surprised extremism begets extremism.

    Plus support for an Australian style points system as Boris wants is hardly Fascism
    "Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement" which would otherwise have passed?
    The ERG
    That's a lie. It would still have failed with the ERG. Why do you keep peddling this lie or can you not count?
    Because its the truth. Had they all got behind the deal from the beginning it would have carried.
    Do the maths, no it wouldn't. Not without others voting differently too.
    As I said below, if you think you can take a count in one political scenario and drop it into another, you don't understand politics.
    And you don't understand maths.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,458

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal or any form of the Brexit 52% voted for and refuse to respect democracy then diehard Remainers should not be surprised extremism begets extremism.

    Plus support for an Australian style points system as Boris wants is hardly Fascism
    "Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement" which would otherwise have passed?
    The ERG
    That's a lie. It would still have failed with the ERG. Why do you keep peddling this lie or can you not count?
    Because its the truth. Had they all got behind the deal from the beginning it would have carried.
    It's not the f*cking truth.

    The DUP were set against May's Deal.

    Even with ALL Tories onboard - yes, I'm looking at you Dominic Grieve - it needed Labour votes to overcome the DUP. And how many of them were sticking their heads above the parapet to be the one marked down in the history books as having made Brexit happen?

    The ERG were a noisy irrelevence - apart from giving spineless Labour MPs cover for reneging on promises made to their voters.
    Giving Labour cover was the way to pass the deal! The ERG did not just take away any cover leave Labour MPs had, they made the deal ridiculously toxic. If we are going to leave the EU, the WA is a broadly sensible way to do it, and the only one that reflects the consent given in the referendum.

    The official leave campaign promised a deal, at the GE less than 2% of people voted for no deal. No deal has no consent, and the ERG made the deal toxic. That is why we have not left, and perhaps never will.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:


    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”

    It is literally suspending democracy. You can dress it up however you like, but you are advocating suspending the body that is democratically elected to achieve your aim. Note, that body was elected after the referendum result, so you don't even have that excuse.

    The Conservative party is now controlled by enemies of democracy.

    Always worth reminding ourselves that in 2017 voters gave a majority of their votes to parties that rejected (and reject) a No Deal Brexit.

    Yet a majority of votes to parties that backed Brexit, the Tories, UKIP and Corbyn Labour

    That has nothing to do with closing down Parliament to enforce a No Deal.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal or any form of the Brexit 52% voted for and refuse to respect democracy then diehard Remainers should not be surprised extremism begets extremism.

    Plus support for an Australian style points system as Boris wants is hardly Fascism
    "Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement" which would otherwise have passed?
    The ERG
    That's a lie. It would still have failed with the ERG. Why do you keep peddling this lie or can you not count?
    Because its the truth. Had they all got behind the deal from the beginning it would have carried.
    It's not the f*cking truth.

    The DUP were set against May's Deal.

    Even with ALL Tories onboard - yes, I'm looking at you Dominic Grieve - it needed Labour votes to overcome the DUP. And how many of them were sticking their heads above the parapet to be the one marked down in the history books as having made Brexit happen?

    The ERG were a noisy irrelevence - apart from giving spineless Labour MPs cover for reneging on promises made to their voters.
    Nope.

    Brexit required Brexiters to get in behind it.
    The ERG were the pivotal actor to stop it happening. They provided cover for Labour Leavers *and* the DUP, in a way those two other groups could not have.
    The DUP needed no cover. If anything they gave cover to the ERG.

    So the absurd suggestion then is that Labour opposed it because of the ERG.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Things always look extreme when you only cite the extreme positions. As always it depends on the phrasing of the question and how the respondent interprets it

    - immigration: banning immigration is extreme. Thinking the current balance of cost and benefit is wrong is not
    - Islam: militant Islam is. More philosophically if you look at the social polling among even moderate Muslims on homosexuality or the rights of women, I’d say their views could be seen as “a threat to the British way of life”
    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”
    Anyone who advocates suspending parliament is beneath contempt.
    It’s not a route I would advocate but it’s not the same as “suspending democracy”.

    But we do have an issue where Parliament seems determined to frustrate any possible outcome
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Disgraceful. And only a few weeks after the D-Day memorials. Have we learnt nothing?
    To listen to them you’d think they had been first on the beaches.
    Quite a significant number weren’t even born at the time of WW2, I imagine.

    U.K. Ambassador Kim Darroch was disinvited from a dinner that U.S. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin is hosting Monday with President Donald Trump and the emir of Qatar, according to a U.S. official.

    https://time.com/5622419/trump-disinvites-uk-envoy-kim-darroch/

    Really, why wouldn’t we do exactly the same thing to the US Ambassador here. Politely make it clear that if the Trump government is going to behave with such discourtesy then we will respond in kind. For every freezing out etc there will be an equivalent response here.

    Our ambassador has done nothing wrong and yet, because of the behaviour of others, is likely going to have his career ruined. He ought to be promoted so as to make clear to the leaker and anyone else hoping to profit by their misbehaviour that they won’t prosper.
    It’s a disgrace that people aren’t condemning Trump from the rooftops for his appalling intrusion into our internal affairs.
    He’s not intruding. These things are usually done in private and usually over more substantive matters than “he said rude things about me in his private reports to his boss”

    But he has the right to declare an ambassador PNG if he wants. We shouldn’t back down on this. Trump is a bully picking a fight over something that doesn’t matter. He’s testing the U.K.

    We should just quietly stop inviting Woody Johnson to stuff. No need to make a big scene.

    (I’d imagine that the Pilgrims have already been on the phone anyway)
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sarah James on R4, hopelessly trying to defend Labour’s new Brexit nuance.

    Asked the question whether in a referendum Labour would be Leave or Remain, first there is a pause. Then an answer beginning with the words “It depends...”. Then a qualification that they would probably be Remain “at this stage”.

    Asked how Labour could negotiate hard for a new deal and then campaign against it in a referendum, she was stumped.

    It’s as though Labour wants to donate voters to the Lib Dems and the Greens.
    Its too little, too late.

    If Labour want to credibly run a different Brexit policy, they have to change leader first to someone like Watson or Phillips.
    The most underreported group in British politics at present comprises those people who voted Labour in 2017 and who are now not supporting them. That makes up 15-20% of the population. But while there are plenty of Labour loyalists still making their views known and plenty of people who never liked Labour making their views known, public statements from members of this very sizeable group are really quite hard to come by.

    They’ll be tactical voters by and large, and most will be casting their ballots to prevent Johnson winning.

    10% of 2017 Labour Leave voters voting for a Boris led Tories with Ashcroft yesterday and over 20% for the Brexit Party
    A sub-sample of a sub-sample of a sub-sample.

    Even I know when to draw a line.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal or any form of the Brexit 52% voted for and refuse to respect democracy then diehard Remainers should not be surprised extremism begets extremism.

    Plus support for an Australian style points system as Boris wants is hardly Fascism
    "Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement" which would otherwise have passed?
    The ERG
    That's a lie. It would still have failed with the ERG. Why do you keep peddling this lie or can you not count?
    Because its the truth. Had they all got behind the deal from the beginning it would have carried.
    It's not the f*cking truth.

    The DUP were set against May's Deal.

    Even with ALL Tories onboard - yes, I'm looking at you Dominic Grieve - it needed Labour votes to overcome the DUP. And how many of them were sticking their heads above the parapet to be the one marked down in the history books as having made Brexit happen?

    The ERG were a noisy irrelevence - apart from giving spineless Labour MPs cover for reneging on promises made to their voters.
    Because there were any number of groupings that voted against the Withdrawal Agreement it IS difficult to point to one group and say "its's their fault" that it failed.
    However the ERG is the largest * group and must therefore take the largest part of the blame. Blaming Tory Remainers when the ERG is more at fault is just wrong.

    * The group boasted a membership of around 70 MPs.
    https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/erg-brexit-group-members-jacob-rees-mogg-explained/
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal or any form of the Brexit 52% voted for and refuse to respect democracy then diehard Remainers should not be surprised extremism begets extremism.

    Plus support for an Australian style points system as Boris wants is hardly Fascism
    "Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement" which would otherwise have passed?
    The ERG
    That's a lie. It would still have failed with the ERG. Why do you keep peddling this lie or can you not count?
    Because its the truth. Had they all got behind the deal from the beginning it would have carried.
    It's not the f*cking truth.

    The DUP were set against May's Deal.

    Even with ALL Tories onboard - yes, I'm looking at you Dominic Grieve - it needed Labour votes to overcome the DUP. And how many of them were sticking their heads above the parapet to be the one marked down in the history books as having made Brexit happen?

    The ERG were a noisy irrelevence - apart from giving spineless Labour MPs cover for reneging on promises made to their voters.
    Nope.

    Brexit required Brexiters to get in behind it.
    The ERG were the pivotal actor to stop it happening. They provided cover for Labour Leavers *and* the DUP, in a way those two other groups could not have.
    The DUP needed no cover. If anything they gave cover to the ERG.

    So the absurd suggestion then is that Labour opposed it because of the ERG.
    And yet, the word from Northern Irish observers is that the DUP *did* want cover.

    You are wrong on this, presumably because you are a failer and blamer.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    IanB2 said:

    On topic, it's worth noting the £6k looking to back the election this year at 2.32.

    Noted.
    And the ability to lay 2020 or later at 1.82 on the monthly market
    Noted.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Things always look extreme when you only cite the extreme positions. As always it depends on the phrasing of the question and how the respondent interprets it

    - immigration: banning immigration is extreme. Thinking the current balance of cost and benefit is wrong is not
    - Islam: militant Islam is. More philosophically if you look at the social polling among even moderate Muslims on homosexuality or the rights of women, I’d say their views could be seen as “a threat to the British way of life”
    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”
    Anyone who advocates suspending parliament is beneath contempt.
    It’s not a route I would advocate but it’s not the same as “suspending democracy”.

    But we do have an issue where Parliament seems determined to frustrate any possible outcome
    In what way is it different?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,458

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal or any form of the Brexit 52% voted for and refuse to respect democracy then diehard Remainers should not be surprised extremism begets extremism.

    Plus support for an Australian style points system as Boris wants is hardly Fascism
    "Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement" which would otherwise have passed?
    The ERG
    That's a lie. It would still have failed with the ERG. Why do you keep peddling this lie or can you not count?
    Because its the truth. Had they all got behind the deal from the beginning it would have carried.
    It's not the f*cking truth.

    The DUP were set against May's Deal.

    Even with ALL Tories onboard - yes, I'm looking at you Dominic Grieve - it needed Labour votes to overcome the DUP. And how many of them were sticking their heads above the parapet to be the one marked down in the history books as having made Brexit happen?

    The ERG were a noisy irrelevence - apart from giving spineless Labour MPs cover for reneging on promises made to their voters.
    Nope.

    Brexit required Brexiters to get in behind it.
    The ERG were the pivotal actor to stop it happening. They provided cover for Labour Leavers *and* the DUP, in a way those two other groups could not have.
    The DUP needed no cover. If anything they gave cover to the ERG.

    So the absurd suggestion then is that Labour opposed it because of the ERG.
    How have you not got your head around this? Yes leave Labour MPs who would otherwise have reluctantly broken their party ties and supported the WA decided not to do so as the ERG trashed the WA making it toxic with the public.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:


    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”

    It is literally suspending democracy. You can dress it up however you like, but you are advocating suspending the body that is democratically elected to achieve your aim. Note, that body was elected after the referendum result, so you don't even have that excuse.

    The Conservative party is now controlled by enemies of democracy.
    Parliamentary democracy is not the only form of democracy.

    I happen to believe it is the best form, but it’s not the only one. Switzerland, for example, has a plebiscite based approach while Austria believes in consociationalism.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    IanB2 said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    I don't see what you gain, rhetorically, from using the term diehard Remainer. You could add easily and as meaninglessly take any other minority societal group. Dentists, EDLers, redheads, etc.

    HYUFD speaks fluent Telegraph, with a Mail accent.

    With a hint of Expressese.
    And a healthy dose of BBC-style summer repeats.
    Gawd. The dreaded repeats.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,722

    Writing from a Portuguese resort, Andy Wigmore promises to purge the civil service.

    https://twitter.com/andywigmore/status/1148498063067160577?s=21

    No, actually it was Thatcher who said various demeaning things about Civil Servants and why would anyone bright go there. Or public service generally. Up until then a top, or top-ish graduate from Oxbridge would seriously consider that sort of job.
    Now, it's the City or journalism. Or possibly, being a SpaD aiming for a safe seat in Parliament.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited July 2019

    And yet, the word from Northern Irish observers is that the DUP *did* want cover.

    You are wrong on this, presumably because you are a failer and blamer.

    The DUP were saying Never, Never, Never. If they wanted cover then JRM and Boris gave it to them on the third vote. They didn't take it.

    Had the DUP been in favour, even in the third vote, it would have passed as it would have removed the cover from the ERG. Reality is that the EU and May hastily agreed a backstop without checking with the DUP if it was acceptable to them.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,458
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Things always look extreme when you only cite the extreme positions. As always it depends on the phrasing of the question and how the respondent interprets it

    - immigration: banning immigration is extreme. Thinking the current balance of cost and benefit is wrong is not
    - Islam: militant Islam is. More philosophically if you look at the social polling among even moderate Muslims on homosexuality or the rights of women, I’d say their views could be seen as “a threat to the British way of life”
    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”
    Anyone who advocates suspending parliament is beneath contempt.
    It’s not a route I would advocate but it’s not the same as “suspending democracy”.

    But we do have an issue where Parliament seems determined to frustrate any possible outcome
    It would be a coup, nothing less. Parliament is sovereign and suspending parliament to enact a major change from the status quo would be a coup.
  • Animal_pbAnimal_pb Posts: 608

    Charles said:


    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”

    It is literally suspending democracy. You can dress it up however you like, but you are advocating suspending the body that is democratically elected to achieve your aim. Note, that body was elected after the referendum result, so you don't even have that excuse.

    The Conservative party is now controlled by enemies of democracy.
    Gosh. Strong words.

    On the other hand, the HoC is also the body that repeatedly failed to vote for almost any solution to the problem (except, from memory, the Malthouse proposal?). So is it suspending democracy, or just removing a block to *any* kind of resolution?

    [for reference, no, I'm not a fan of proroguing. But the HoC has not exactly put themselves in a Caesar's wife position, here].
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement or No Deal or any form of the Brexit 52% voted for and refuse to respect democracy then diehard Remainers should not be surprised extremism begets extremism.

    Plus support for an Australian style points system as Boris wants is hardly Fascism
    "Refuse to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement" which would otherwise have passed?
    The ERG
    That's a lie. It would still have failed with the ERG. Why do you keep peddling this lie or can you not count?
    Because its the truth. Had they all got behind the deal from the beginning it would have carried.
    It's not the f*cking truth.

    The DUP were set against May's Deal.

    Even with ALL Tories onboard - yes, I'm looking at you Dominic Grieve - it needed Labour votes to overcome the DUP. And how many of them were sticking their heads above the parapet to be the one marked down in the history books as having made Brexit happen?

    The ERG were a noisy irrelevence - apart from giving spineless Labour MPs cover for reneging on promises made to their voters.
    Because there were any number of groupings that voted against the Withdrawal Agreement it IS difficult to point to one group and say "its's their fault" that it failed.
    However the ERG is the largest * group and must therefore take the largest part of the blame. Blaming Tory Remainers when the ERG is more at fault is just wrong.

    * The group boasted a membership of around 70 MPs.
    https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/erg-brexit-group-members-jacob-rees-mogg-explained/
    Labour are the largest group. They number over 200 MPs.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”

    It is literally suspending democracy. You can dress it up however you like, but you are advocating suspending the body that is democratically elected to achieve your aim. Note, that body was elected after the referendum result, so you don't even have that excuse.

    The Conservative party is now controlled by enemies of democracy.
    Parliamentary democracy is not the only form of democracy.

    I happen to believe it is the best form, but it’s not the only one. Switzerland, for example, has a plebiscite based approach while Austria believes in consociationalism.
    I must have missed the Brexit paper on “consociationalism”.

    Charles going in to bat for the democracy-suspenders is a pretty sordid sight.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”

    It is literally suspending democracy. You can dress it up however you like, but you are advocating suspending the body that is democratically elected to achieve your aim. Note, that body was elected after the referendum result, so you don't even have that excuse.

    The Conservative party is now controlled by enemies of democracy.
    Parliamentary democracy is not the only form of democracy.

    I happen to believe it is the best form, but it’s not the only one. Switzerland, for example, has a plebiscite based approach while Austria believes in consociationalism.
    I must have missed the Brexit paper on “consociationalism”.

    Charles going in to bat for the democracy-suspenders is a pretty sordid sight.
    Democracy suspenders? Which election is being suspended?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nigelb said:



    Ambassador to China ?

    My father was posted at the DC embassy in the early-mid 80s and he always maintained that anything else after is a step down and a big one (he got sent to Zaire after DC - haha). The ambassador's residence on Massachusetts Ave. alone makes it a glittering prize.
    Paris is the only posting that comes close - even that is a clear #2 slot (and a New College fiefdom anyway)
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Writing from a Portuguese resort, Andy Wigmore promises to purge the civil service.

    https://twitter.com/andywigmore/status/1148498063067160577?s=21

    Just looked at his twitter posts, what an obnoxious individual.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”

    It is literally suspending democracy. You can dress it up however you like, but you are advocating suspending the body that is democratically elected to achieve your aim. Note, that body was elected after the referendum result, so you don't even have that excuse.

    The Conservative party is now controlled by enemies of democracy.
    Parliamentary democracy is not the only form of democracy.

    I happen to believe it is the best form, but it’s not the only one. Switzerland, for example, has a plebiscite based approach while Austria believes in consociationalism.
    I must have missed the Brexit paper on “consociationalism”.

    Charles going in to bat for the democracy-suspenders is a pretty sordid sight.
    Democracy suspenders? Which election is being suspended?
    Don’t give Charles more ideas.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,915
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Things always look extreme when you only cite the extreme positions. As always it depends on the phrasing of the question and how the respondent interprets it

    - immigration: banning immigration is extreme. Thinking the current balance of cost and benefit is wrong is not
    - Islam: militant Islam is. More philosophically if you look at the social polling among even moderate Muslims on homosexuality or the rights of women, I’d say their views could be seen as “a threat to the British way of life”
    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”
    Anyone who advocates suspending parliament is beneath contempt.
    It’s not a route I would advocate but it’s not the same as “suspending democracy”.

    But we do have an issue where Parliament seems determined to frustrate any possible outcome
    The problem has always been that the referendum mandated leaving the EU but did not provide firm guidance on how that should happen.
    People voted for different forms of Brexit, and we know from the polling that some people who voted for Brexit and wanted a particular form of Brexit would rather Remain than leave with the wrong form of Brexit. So the argument "people voted Leave so we must leave like this" doesn't hold.
    Moreover, neither Theresa May nor most Brexiteers have at any time, except perhaps half-heartedly when it was too late, tried to forge a national consensus on the issue.
    As a result, nobody in parliament is under any moral, legal or political obligation to sign up to a form of Brexit that they view as worse than remaining. This is true of the DUP, the ERG and the Labour Party. It must be frustrating for Leavers, but it is largely their own fault. Sorry (not sorry).
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    That’ll teach the NI Assembley not to sit:

    https://twitter.com/SJAMcBride/status/1148507492365807616?s=20
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Streeter said:

    Scott_P said:
    I fear our unwritten constitution and system of checks and balances based on mere custom will prove inadequate to withstand sustained attack.
    Spot on.

    As the Union nears dissolution it is flirting with some very dark forces. It could have exited the scene relatively gracefully, like Czechoslovakia. But it is now pretty much guaranteed that the UK is about to make itself the biggest arse in the western world.
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684

    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”

    It is literally suspending democracy. You can dress it up however you like, but you are advocating suspending the body that is democratically elected to achieve your aim. Note, that body was elected after the referendum result, so you don't even have that excuse.

    The Conservative party is now controlled by enemies of democracy.
    Parliamentary democracy is not the only form of democracy.

    I happen to believe it is the best form, but it’s not the only one. Switzerland, for example, has a plebiscite based approach while Austria believes in consociationalism.
    I must have missed the Brexit paper on “consociationalism”.

    Charles going in to bat for the democracy-suspenders is a pretty sordid sight.
    Democracy suspenders? Which election is being suspended?
    Democracy does not begin and end with elections.
  • Streeter said:

    Scott_P said:
    I fear our unwritten constitution and system of checks and balances based on mere custom will prove inadequate to withstand sustained attack.
    Spot on.

    As the Union nears dissolution it is flirting with some very dark forces. It could have exited the scene relatively gracefully, like Czechoslovakia. But it is now pretty much guaranteed that the UK is about to make itself the biggest arse in the western world.
    Not sure if Czechoslovakia is your best blueprint. From what I've heard from young Czechs and Slovaks it was just the elite divvying up the resources for their own mutual political benefit.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”

    It is literally suspending democracy. You can dress it up however you like, but you are advocating suspending the body that is democratically elected to achieve your aim. Note, that body was elected after the referendum result, so you don't even have that excuse.

    The Conservative party is now controlled by enemies of democracy.
    Parliamentary democracy is not the only form of democracy.

    I happen to believe it is the best form, but it’s not the only one. Switzerland, for example, has a plebiscite based approach while Austria believes in consociationalism.
    I must have missed the Brexit paper on “consociationalism”.

    Charles going in to bat for the democracy-suspenders is a pretty sordid sight.
    Democracy suspenders? Which election is being suspended?
    So if Theresa May had all the MPs rounded up and thrown in prison and declared herself Supreme Leader, that wouldn't be a suspension of democracy because we didn't have any elections planned?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,722

    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”

    It is literally suspending democracy. You can dress it up however you like, but you are advocating suspending the body that is democratically elected to achieve your aim. Note, that body was elected after the referendum result, so you don't even have that excuse.

    The Conservative party is now controlled by enemies of democracy.
    Parliamentary democracy is not the only form of democracy.

    I happen to believe it is the best form, but it’s not the only one. Switzerland, for example, has a plebiscite based approach while Austria believes in consociationalism.
    I must have missed the Brexit paper on “consociationalism”.

    Charles going in to bat for the democracy-suspenders is a pretty sordid sight.
    Democracy suspenders? Which election is being suspended?
    Don’t give Charles more ideas.
    Doesn't democracy need braces, rather than suspenders?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”

    It is literally suspending democracy. You can dress it up however you like, but you are advocating suspending the body that is democratically elected to achieve your aim. Note, that body was elected after the referendum result, so you don't even have that excuse.

    The Conservative party is now controlled by enemies of democracy.
    Parliamentary democracy is not the only form of democracy.

    I happen to believe it is the best form, but it’s not the only one. Switzerland, for example, has a plebiscite based approach while Austria believes in consociationalism.
    I must have missed the Brexit paper on “consociationalism”.

    Charles going in to bat for the democracy-suspenders is a pretty sordid sight.
    Democracy suspenders? Which election is being suspended?
    Don’t give Charles more ideas.
    Exactly.

    Never give an arsonist a box of matches.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Animal_pb said:

    Charles said:


    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”

    It is literally suspending democracy. You can dress it up however you like, but you are advocating suspending the body that is democratically elected to achieve your aim. Note, that body was elected after the referendum result, so you don't even have that excuse.

    The Conservative party is now controlled by enemies of democracy.
    Gosh. Strong words.

    On the other hand, the HoC is also the body that repeatedly failed to vote for almost any solution to the problem (except, from memory, the Malthouse proposal?). So is it suspending democracy, or just removing a block to *any* kind of resolution?

    [for reference, no, I'm not a fan of proroguing. But the HoC has not exactly put themselves in a Caesar's wife position, here].
    EURef2
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    TOPPING said:

    Animal_pb said:

    Charles said:


    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”

    It is literally suspending democracy. You can dress it up however you like, but you are advocating suspending the body that is democratically elected to achieve your aim. Note, that body was elected after the referendum result, so you don't even have that excuse.

    The Conservative party is now controlled by enemies of democracy.
    Gosh. Strong words.

    On the other hand, the HoC is also the body that repeatedly failed to vote for almost any solution to the problem (except, from memory, the Malthouse proposal?). So is it suspending democracy, or just removing a block to *any* kind of resolution?

    [for reference, no, I'm not a fan of proroguing. But the HoC has not exactly put themselves in a Caesar's wife position, here].
    EURef2
    Parliament has voted down multiple variants of that.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Things always look extreme when you only cite the extreme positions. As always it depends on the phrasing of the question and how the respondent interprets it

    - immigration: banning immigration is extreme. Thinking the current balance of cost and benefit is wrong is not
    - Islam: militant Islam is. More philosophically if you look at the social polling among even moderate Muslims on homosexuality or the rights of women, I’d say their views could be seen as “a threat to the British way of life”
    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”
    Anyone who advocates suspending parliament is beneath contempt.
    It’s not a route I would advocate but it’s not the same as “suspending democracy”.

    But we do have an issue where Parliament seems determined to frustrate any possible outcome
    In what way is it different?
    Parliamentary democracy isn’t the only form of democracy. What we have is a conflict between two forms. It’s why I’m just as opposed to a second referendum with a Remain option - that’s also [ignoring] democracy (at least one form thereof)
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”

    It is literally suspending democracy. You can dress it up however you like, but you are advocating suspending the body that is democratically elected to achieve your aim. Note, that body was elected after the referendum result, so you don't even have that excuse.

    The Conservative party is now controlled by enemies of democracy.
    Parliamentary democracy is not the only form of democracy.

    I happen to believe it is the best form, but it’s not the only one. Switzerland, for example, has a plebiscite based approach while Austria believes in consociationalism.
    I must have missed the Brexit paper on “consociationalism”.

    Charles going in to bat for the democracy-suspenders is a pretty sordid sight.
    Democracy suspenders? Which election is being suspended?
    Don’t give Charles more ideas.
    Doesn't democracy need braces, rather than suspenders?
    No as were now a US satellite we will be using suspenders and braces are banned.
  • Animal_pbAnimal_pb Posts: 608

    Charles said:

    Charles said:


    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”

    It is literally suspending democracy. You can dress it up however you like, but you are advocating suspending the body that is democratically elected to achieve your aim. Note, that body was elected after the referendum result, so you don't even have that excuse.

    The Conservative party is now controlled by enemies of democracy.
    Parliamentary democracy is not the only form of democracy.

    I happen to believe it is the best form, but it’s not the only one. Switzerland, for example, has a plebiscite based approach while Austria believes in consociationalism.
    I must have missed the Brexit paper on “consociationalism”.

    Charles going in to bat for the democracy-suspenders is a pretty sordid sight.
    Democracy suspenders? Which election is being suspended?
    Don’t give Charles more ideas.
    Doesn't democracy need braces, rather than suspenders?
    More like tights. High denier, opaque, probably body shaping. We don't really want to see what's underneath.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,458
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nothing to see here, just one of the main political parties’ memberships being prepared to suspend democracy:

    https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1148339539586551810?s=21

    Based on the various polling we’ve seen of membership views, I would now comfortably describe the Conservative Party as “far right”.
    Many diehard Remainers would now describe 52% of the electorate as 'far right'
    Willing to suspend democracy? Yes.
    See Islam as a threat to the British way of life? Yes.
    See the benefits of immigration outweighed by the disadvantages? Yes.

    The Conservative party is becoming a haven for extremists.
    Things always look extreme when you only cite the extreme positions. As always it depends on the phrasing of the question and how the respondent interprets it

    - immigration: banning immigration is extreme. Thinking the current balance of cost and benefit is wrong is not
    - Islam: militant Islam is. More philosophically if you look at the social polling among even moderate Muslims on homosexuality or the rights of women, I’d say their views could be seen as “a threat to the British way of life”
    - Suspend democracy - nope. This is a perceived conflict between parliamentary democracy and popular democracy. suspending parliament to implement the result of a popular vote is not the same as “suspending democracy”
    Anyone who advocates suspending parliament is beneath contempt.
    It’s not a route I would advocate but it’s not the same as “suspending democracy”.

    But we do have an issue where Parliament seems determined to frustrate any possible outcome
    In what way is it different?
    Parliamentary democracy isn’t the only form of democracy. What we have is a conflict between two forms. It’s why I’m just as opposed to a second referendum with a Remain option - that’s also [ignoring] democracy (at least one form thereof)
    But we have a constitution which says parliament > referenda

    Who gets to decide to change that? If it is just the PM and the Queen with no consent from parliament or the public that is a coup.
This discussion has been closed.