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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Failing to back the ambassador – the first mistake of the Bori

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited July 10 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Failing to back the ambassador – the first mistake of the Boris premiership

One thing that we know from the YouGov Conservative members’ polling is that that those who are choosing the next PM have a very different view of President Trump than than most UK voters. More than 50% of CON members have generally positive view compared with 21% amongst the electorate as a whole. The pollster finds 67% of Brits having a negative opinion.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 11,905
    A mistake certainly but what will it cost Boris in the short term especially if most votes have already been cast?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 34,292
    The second mistake will be his hurried replacement of Darroch, giving the fat fatuous fathead what he wants.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 11,905
    There are a couple of known unknowns that might affect the race to Number 10.

    Who leaked the ambassador's emails and is there a direct link to either Boris or Hunt?

    Are there any new revelations in the Gove biography (the one that sunk Gove with tales of coke-fuelled parties) due out next week? (Unlikely as review copies are presumably already in the hands of the press.)
    https://www.bitebackpublishing.com/books/michael-gove-8a4c5c2d-8e51-4128-a1e7-453f765bcad8

    Tomorrow sees the publication of the parliamentary harassment report.
    MPs' staffers have been warned to expect "distressing and uncomfortable" revelations in a long-awaited report into Parliament's bullying and sexual harassment culture to be published Thursday.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9472771/mp-staffers-warned-bullying-sexual-harassment-report/
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 11,905
    In shock news, the Public Accounts Committee thinks Chris Grayling was a bit of a twerp on the ferry front but also points out:
    In order to ensure that any ferry operators have enough time to be operational for a 31 October Brexit, the procurement of additional capacity "may need to be completed by the end of July", it says, which puts no-deal planners in Whitehall on a very tight deadline.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 789
    Whilst I agree the optics do not look good, I do wonder whether it could be part of a greater negotiating strategy.

    The EU are unlikely to want the UK to spin off and become a US satellite post Brexit and may be more minded to improve the deal if they suspect that is a possibility.

    Conversely, if a better EU deal does not become available, it may be best at this stage not to further antagonise a key component to any future US negotiations.

    The latter is not dissimilar to Trump's strategy towards China as reported below.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 25,474
    There is also the question of loyalty to consider. Loyalty is earned, not bestowed. If everyone knows that the Prime Minister is going to let anyone swing in the wind rather than spend political capital backing up even the most senior professional colleagues, who is going to go out on a limb for him?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 3,391
    Neither of them are fit to lead this country. For all that Boris is a waffling liar Hunt is a psychotic liar. Neither is Corbyn fit. Farage.

    How did we get into this mess where all the choices are awful?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 34,292

    Hunt is a psychotic liar.

    Strong claim.

    Care to elaborate?

    Examples of psychosis?

    Examples of lying?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 11,556

    The second mistake will be his hurried replacement of Darroch, giving the fat fatuous fathead what he wants.

    You seem as repulsed by the Johnson/Trump combo as the header. Unusually strong language from you.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 11,313
    I loved the way they both went into full-on snark mode on the final "say something nice about the person" question. Contrast that with the US presidential race where Hillary said something nice but lame about Trump's family and Trump came back with a genuine, apparently sincere compliment about Hillary being a fighter.
  • felixfelix Posts: 8,734
    I thought we denigrated the use of 'Traitor' in headlines. I'm no fan of Boris but there's a stench of hypocrisy here.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 34,292
    The Hunt-Johnson exchange on Darroch:



    Couple of points - Boris tries to wiggle out by suggesting Hunt wouldn't keep Darroch beyond his retirement in December (no one has suggested this), second Boris describes the Washington position as "politically sensitive" - is he minded to appoint a politician vs a career diplomat?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 11,556

    Hunt is a psychotic liar.


    Appearances can be deceptive

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 34,292
    felix said:

    I thought we denigrated the use of 'Traitor' in headlines. I'm no fan of Boris but there's a stench of hypocrisy here.

    Autocorrect get your "deprecated"?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 34,292
    Roger said:

    The second mistake will be his hurried replacement of Darroch, giving the fat fatuous fathead what he wants.

    You seem as repulsed by the Johnson/Trump combo as the header. Unusually strong language from you.
    I have long been critical of both. Neither are remotely fit for high office. Sadly, both reflect the times in which we live - the "instant success fairy tale" of "Britain's Got Talent" to keep the plebs in their place with dreams of instant glory and enrichment and conceal the reduction in social mobility.
  • felixfelix Posts: 8,734

    felix said:

    I thought we denigrated the use of 'Traitor' in headlines. I'm no fan of Boris but there's a stench of hypocrisy here.

    Autocorrect get your "deprecated"?
    Nope - according to the dictionary it's a synonym for deprecate. Full marks for pedantry however.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 34,292

    There is also the question of loyalty to consider. Loyalty is earned, not bestowed. If everyone knows that the Prime Minister is going to let anyone swing in the wind rather than spend political capital backing up even the most senior professional colleagues, who is going to go out on a limb for him?

    What I have found utterly depressing is the craven toadying of politicians I have known and liked for many years who have signed up to the manifestly unfit Johnson, presumably in the hope of preferment.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 50,052
    Good morning, everyone.

    Bad for Boris, but many votes are in already (it's bloody stupid debating so late) and his advantage is such this will likely alter only the scale of his victory, not the victory itself.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 19,234

    I loved the way they both went into full-on snark mode on the final "say something nice about the person" question. Contrast that with the US presidential race where Hillary said something nice but lame about Trump's family and Trump came back with a genuine, apparently sincere compliment about Hillary being a fighter.

    Yes, I was waiting to see if Hunt would seize the high ground and say something moderately complimentary, difficult though it is about Boris. His was a clever answer, but after Johnson’s obvious discomfort and umming and erring, the chance to be the bigger man was there. But he ducked.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 19,063
    In favour of sacking Sir Kim Darroch:

    The US president
    The US cabinet
    The Daily Mail
    Nigel Farage
    Boris Johnson
    Piers Morgan.

    In light of this, it's very clear he's the right man for the job and has to stay in post.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 11,556
    edited July 10

    I loved the way they both went into full-on snark mode on the final "say something nice about the person" question. Contrast that with the US presidential race where Hillary said something nice but lame about Trump's family and Trump came back with a genuine, apparently sincere compliment about Hillary being a fighter.

    Watching last night the thing that came over most strongly was how feeble both candidates were. I can't remember being as unimpressed by two politicians. Mrs May would have dwarfed them both. Lets hope they catch Johnson banging his secretary on the cabinet table and we can be rid of him as quickly a possible.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 25,474
    felix said:

    I thought we denigrated the use of 'Traitor' in headlines. I'm no fan of Boris but there's a stench of hypocrisy here.

    I strongly disapprove of its use in this instance.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 25,474

    There is also the question of loyalty to consider. Loyalty is earned, not bestowed. If everyone knows that the Prime Minister is going to let anyone swing in the wind rather than spend political capital backing up even the most senior professional colleagues, who is going to go out on a limb for him?

    What I have found utterly depressing is the craven toadying of politicians I have known and liked for many years who have signed up to the manifestly unfit Johnson, presumably in the hope of preferment.
    Omnia vincit Brexit.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 19,234
    ”The most useful part of the exchanges came with the quickfire questions towards the end. Hunt had clearly decided that he needed to show decisiveness. He gave one-word answers, very effectively. Johnson waffled, avoiding giving answers of any kind, but his evasions were eloquent, too. The smirks, the smugness, the self-love, the bluster and the hyperbole told us that Britain is about to be landed with the most ill-qualified and most insouciant prime minister in modern times.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/09/boris-johnson-displays-why-he-will-be-most-ill-qualified-pm-of-modern-times
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 19,063
    Cue many jokes from Brexiteers...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,250

    I loved the way they both went into full-on snark mode on the final "say something nice about the person" question. Contrast that with the US presidential race where Hillary said something nice but lame about Trump's family and Trump came back with a genuine, apparently sincere compliment about Hillary being a fighter.

    Yes, it was very disappointing. And childish.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 34,292
    felix said:

    felix said:

    I thought we denigrated the use of 'Traitor' in headlines. I'm no fan of Boris but there's a stench of hypocrisy here.

    Autocorrect get your "deprecated"?
    Nope - according to the dictionary it's a synonym for deprecate. Full marks for pedantry however.
    I deprecate the confusion of the two, but do not denigrate those who do.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 19,063
    Roger said:

    I loved the way they both went into full-on snark mode on the final "say something nice about the person" question. Contrast that with the US presidential race where Hillary said something nice but lame about Trump's family and Trump came back with a genuine, apparently sincere compliment about Hillary being a fighter.

    Watching last night the thing that came over most strongly was how feeble both candidates were. I can't remember being as unimpressed by two politicians. Mrs May would have dwarfed them both. Lets hope they catch Johnson banging his secretary on the cabinet table and we can be rid of him as quickly a possible.
    Lloyd George survived that.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 19,234
    Surely the LibDems have arranged for one of the ex TIGs to join them as Boris is elected and in the runup to Brecon polling day.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 19,234
    ”Boris lover in Tory expenses 'abuse' claim: Carrie Symonds forced to quit £80k Tory HQ job over 'poor work' and accused of costing party thousands in improper expenses”

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7230155/Boris-Johnsons-girlfriend-Carrie-Symonds-quit-job-Conservative-Party-expenses-claims.html
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 12,562
    Yes, "traitor" is a rubbish OTT word here, but "wimp" seems appropriate. I'm not especially bothered by Trump ranting - in his juvenile way, he does that to anyone who criticises him (cf. Sadiq Khan). But we shouldn't let it influence us - that just encourages bullying.

    Whatever one thinks of Corbyn, he can *really* be relied on not to suck up to Donald Trump. I'd expect chilly politeness and an absolute refusal to respond to pressure.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 50,052
    Incidentally, that BBC news segment on the ethnicity pay gap was some race-baiting statistically ignorant bullshit. Especially liked the implied racism of whites earning more than other ethnic groups.

    Provided you ignore the Chinese and Indians, of course. And mixed race people. Because nothing says racism like people of mixed racial parentage earning more than the majority race.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 50,052
    Mr. Palmer, that's true.

    Putin, on the other hand, or South American dictators... how's the socialist miracle going in Venezuela, incidentally?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 11,905

    Mr. Palmer, that's true.

    Putin, on the other hand, or South American dictators... how's the socialist miracle going in Venezuela, incidentally?

    The socialist miracle is severely hampered by US economic sanctions.
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 348

    There is also the question of loyalty to consider. Loyalty is earned, not bestowed. If everyone knows that the Prime Minister is going to let anyone swing in the wind rather than spend political capital backing up even the most senior professional colleagues, who is going to go out on a limb for him?

    What I have found utterly depressing is the craven toadying of politicians I have known and liked for many years who have signed up to the manifestly unfit Johnson, presumably in the hope of preferment.
    Mildly amusing to see another Tory ramper (paging Big G) from who’s eyes the scales have fallen.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 19,063

    Mr. Palmer, that's true.

    Putin, on the other hand, or South American dictators... how's the socialist miracle going in Venezuela, incidentally?

    The socialist miracle is severely hampered by US economic sanctions.
    It's surprising in that case that the personal wealth of the Chavez and Maduro families still seems to be accumulating.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 5,541
    edited July 10

    There is also the question of loyalty to consider. Loyalty is earned, not bestowed. If everyone knows that the Prime Minister is going to let anyone swing in the wind rather than spend political capital backing up even the most senior professional colleagues, who is going to go out on a limb for him?

    What I have found utterly depressing is the craven toadying of politicians I have known and liked for many years who have signed up to the manifestly unfit Johnson, presumably in the hope of preferment.
    They were frightened by the Council and EU election results, Carlotta.

    They are clutching at a straw in Johnson though. You had some small indication last nite as to how poorly he is likely to perform during a GE campaign, and how little appeal he is likely to have to the electorate at large.

    Not sure who would do much better though.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 5,541
    Streeter said:

    There is also the question of loyalty to consider. Loyalty is earned, not bestowed. If everyone knows that the Prime Minister is going to let anyone swing in the wind rather than spend political capital backing up even the most senior professional colleagues, who is going to go out on a limb for him?

    What I have found utterly depressing is the craven toadying of politicians I have known and liked for many years who have signed up to the manifestly unfit Johnson, presumably in the hope of preferment.
    Mildly amusing to see another Tory ramper (paging Big G) from who’s eyes the scales have fallen.
    You need to review the posts more widely, Streeter. There are many regular and respected posters here on the left and right who have about had it with the two main Parties.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 34,292
    Streeter said:

    There is also the question of loyalty to consider. Loyalty is earned, not bestowed. If everyone knows that the Prime Minister is going to let anyone swing in the wind rather than spend political capital backing up even the most senior professional colleagues, who is going to go out on a limb for him?

    What I have found utterly depressing is the craven toadying of politicians I have known and liked for many years who have signed up to the manifestly unfit Johnson, presumably in the hope of preferment.
    Mildly amusing to see another Tory ramper (paging Big G) from who’s eyes the scales have fallen.
    The scales were never there in the first place.....
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 11,905
    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Palmer, that's true.

    Putin, on the other hand, or South American dictators... how's the socialist miracle going in Venezuela, incidentally?

    The socialist miracle is severely hampered by US economic sanctions.
    It's surprising in that case that the personal wealth of the Chavez and Maduro families still seems to be accumulating.
    Perhaps they have invested in American stocks and shares.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 19,234

    Streeter said:

    There is also the question of loyalty to consider. Loyalty is earned, not bestowed. If everyone knows that the Prime Minister is going to let anyone swing in the wind rather than spend political capital backing up even the most senior professional colleagues, who is going to go out on a limb for him?

    What I have found utterly depressing is the craven toadying of politicians I have known and liked for many years who have signed up to the manifestly unfit Johnson, presumably in the hope of preferment.
    Mildly amusing to see another Tory ramper (paging Big G) from who’s eyes the scales have fallen.
    You need to review the posts more widely, Streeter. There are many regular and respected posters here on the left and right who have about had it with the two main Parties.

    They are however symbiotically linked, and it is likely that as Boris gets his honeymoon and some BXP supporters return, Labour’s rating too will blip upwards. Indeed both effects are evident already in latest polls
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 11,905
    Speaking of wealth, does anyone know how the Trump family firm is doing now the boys are running it because dad and big sis are otherwise engaged?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 19,234
    Streeter said:

    There is also the question of loyalty to consider. Loyalty is earned, not bestowed. If everyone knows that the Prime Minister is going to let anyone swing in the wind rather than spend political capital backing up even the most senior professional colleagues, who is going to go out on a limb for him?

    What I have found utterly depressing is the craven toadying of politicians I have known and liked for many years who have signed up to the manifestly unfit Johnson, presumably in the hope of preferment.
    Mildly amusing to see another Tory ramper (paging Big G) from who’s eyes the scales have fallen.
    Big_G will be busy celebrating his wife’s return from the hunt.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 11,556
    edited July 10

    There is also the question of loyalty to consider. Loyalty is earned, not bestowed. If everyone knows that the Prime Minister is going to let anyone swing in the wind rather than spend political capital backing up even the most senior professional colleagues, who is going to go out on a limb for him?

    What I have found utterly depressing is the craven toadying of politicians I have known and liked for many years who have signed up to the manifestly unfit Johnson, presumably in the hope of preferment.
    Yes it's quite something when Alan Duncan looks like a model of integrity. I wonder whether 'HANCOCK' might enter the Oxford dictionary like 'Quisling' to fill the gaping hole which necessitated using ten words to describe.

    'HANDCOCK (N) .... a craven toadying politician who will support any leader in the hope of preferment'



  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 25,859
    edited July 10
    What is an ambassador for? Surely he is there to represent our interests, to build contacts and increase our influence in the administration that he or she is dealing with. The extent to which you might be able to do this will of course vary. I suspect that our ambassador in Tehran has very little scope but the ambassador to our closest ally really has to work at this both with the current administration and future possible administrations.

    An ambassador who has fallen out with the incumbent President to the extent that he is being disinvited to events and meetings, such as Fox's meeting yesterday, are cancelled because of his attendance is not able to do his job. Rather than improving and smoothing relationships he is aggravating them.

    It may be true that this is not Darroch's fault. The leaks of his cables are a disgrace that someone will hopefully be prosecuted for. It may be true also that Trump is a petulant bully who disrespects anyone, close ally or not. It is also true that ultimately who our ambassador is is a matter for us. But he is not doing, cannot do his job.

    In these circumstances is a potential PM really wrong to suggest that Darroch needs to be moved on? None of us like bullies and standing up to them is always going to be more popular than not. But it seems to me that Boris' approach is ultimately more consistent with our national interest than some cheap Love Actually headlines.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 19,063

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Palmer, that's true.

    Putin, on the other hand, or South American dictators... how's the socialist miracle going in Venezuela, incidentally?

    The socialist miracle is severely hampered by US economic sanctions.
    It's surprising in that case that the personal wealth of the Chavez and Maduro families still seems to be accumulating.
    Perhaps they have invested in American stocks and shares.
    Really? I thought the Americans took a billion dollars off one of Maduro's gangsters, oops, Ministers only a few months ago when they locked him up for corruption.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-46357513
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 19,063

    Speaking of wealth, does anyone know how the Trump family firm is doing now the boys are running it because dad and big sis are otherwise engaged?

    Could it be doing much worse than it did under Trump?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 6,644
    ydoethur said:

    Speaking of wealth, does anyone know how the Trump family firm is doing now the boys are running it because dad and big sis are otherwise engaged?

    Could it be doing much worse than it did under Trump?
    Well Trump did make billions...
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 6,644
    Roger said:

    There is also the question of loyalty to consider. Loyalty is earned, not bestowed. If everyone knows that the Prime Minister is going to let anyone swing in the wind rather than spend political capital backing up even the most senior professional colleagues, who is going to go out on a limb for him?

    What I have found utterly depressing is the craven toadying of politicians I have known and liked for many years who have signed up to the manifestly unfit Johnson, presumably in the hope of preferment.
    Yes it's quite something when Alan Duncan looks like a model of integrity. I wonder whether 'HANCOCK' might enter the Oxford dictionary like 'Quisling' to fill the gaping hole which necessitated you using ten words to describe.

    'HANDCOCK (N) .... a craven toadying politician who will support any leader in the hope of preferment'



    You could apply that to most MPs
  • RogerRoger Posts: 11,556
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    I loved the way they both went into full-on snark mode on the final "say something nice about the person" question. Contrast that with the US presidential race where Hillary said something nice but lame about Trump's family and Trump came back with a genuine, apparently sincere compliment about Hillary being a fighter.

    Watching last night the thing that came over most strongly was how feeble both candidates were. I can't remember being as unimpressed by two politicians. Mrs May would have dwarfed them both. Lets hope they catch Johnson banging his secretary on the cabinet table and we can be rid of him as quickly a possible.
    Lloyd George survived that.
    Strong table?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 75,750
    It all makes sense why Mrs May tried to block Boris Johnson receiving sensitive intelligence material.

    Is Boris Johnson the biggest traitor to this country since Roger Hollis?

    Interesting Johnson and Hollis are alumni of that nest of traitors that is Oxford University.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 25,859

    Roger said:

    There is also the question of loyalty to consider. Loyalty is earned, not bestowed. If everyone knows that the Prime Minister is going to let anyone swing in the wind rather than spend political capital backing up even the most senior professional colleagues, who is going to go out on a limb for him?

    What I have found utterly depressing is the craven toadying of politicians I have known and liked for many years who have signed up to the manifestly unfit Johnson, presumably in the hope of preferment.
    Yes it's quite something when Alan Duncan looks like a model of integrity. I wonder whether 'HANCOCK' might enter the Oxford dictionary like 'Quisling' to fill the gaping hole which necessitated you using ten words to describe.

    'HANDCOCK (N) .... a craven toadying politician who will support any leader in the hope of preferment'



    You could apply that to most MPs
    That was my immediate response. Handcock's pathetic toadying is nowhere near distinctive enough to become shorthand for this sad phenomenon.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 50,052
    Mr. Eagles, she should've fired him. Or never appointed him to start with.
  • LondonTownLondonTown Posts: 4
    This Darroch incident is just remainers poisoning the well making it harder to do a trade deal with the US.

    They don't want to leave the EU and want us in the weakest possible position during negotiations to make that more likely.

    If booting him out for his stupid comments puts the country in a better negotiating position then we should definitely do it.

    Funny how remainers are suddenly all for exercising our independence and sovereignty by keeping the old fool, as long as it screws us over.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 12,562

    Mr. Palmer, that's true.

    Putin, on the other hand, or South American dictators... how's the socialist miracle going in Venezuela, incidentally?

    Putin no - don't forget he supported sanctions on Russia after seeing the Skripal evidence. South American dictators he probably tolerates more than he should. But he's not really a sucker-up to anyone - even his lifetime allies like McDonnell and Abbott find him hard to sway.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 19,063

    ydoethur said:

    Speaking of wealth, does anyone know how the Trump family firm is doing now the boys are running it because dad and big sis are otherwise engaged?

    Could it be doing much worse than it did under Trump?
    Well Trump did make billions...
    He also lost billions.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 19,063
    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    I loved the way they both went into full-on snark mode on the final "say something nice about the person" question. Contrast that with the US presidential race where Hillary said something nice but lame about Trump's family and Trump came back with a genuine, apparently sincere compliment about Hillary being a fighter.

    Watching last night the thing that came over most strongly was how feeble both candidates were. I can't remember being as unimpressed by two politicians. Mrs May would have dwarfed them both. Lets hope they catch Johnson banging his secretary on the cabinet table and we can be rid of him as quickly a possible.
    Lloyd George survived that.
    Strong table?
    I gather it's large and feels like it's made of quite hard wood.

    And the table is pretty strong as well.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 29,955
    Vote Johnson get Trump. I can see ads involving the Orange skinned racist with a little Boris in his pocket.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 12,766

    There is also the question of loyalty to consider. Loyalty is earned, not bestowed. If everyone knows that the Prime Minister is going to let anyone swing in the wind rather than spend political capital backing up even the most senior professional colleagues, who is going to go out on a limb for him?

    What I have found utterly depressing is the craven toadying of politicians I have known and liked for many years who have signed up to the manifestly unfit Johnson, presumably in the hope of preferment.
    Omnia vincit Brexit.
    Or just Omnia Brexit...
    "The whole frame of this contest is about Brexit and when we are going to leave... Fundamentally that is the only thing that matters, everything else is just bluster and noise.”

    The Tory manifesto, brilliantly encapsulated by Boris Johnson.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 6,644

    It all makes sense why Mrs May tried to block Boris Johnson receiving sensitive intelligence material.

    Is Boris Johnson the biggest traitor to this country since Roger Hollis?

    Interesting Johnson and Hollis are alumni of that nest of traitors that is Oxford University.

    I thought Commie spies went to Cambridge...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 24,743
    Last nights debate justified my 'neither' ballot.

    Boris trys to be the showman but is frightening short of detail and Hunt trys too hard to inspire and fails. It looks like Boris will walk it but It will only be the start of a traumatic period in our politics

    Yesterday's correct vote by the HOC on NI gay marriage and abortion rights has infuriated the DUP

    Now here is a theory, Boris does a deal not to implement the gay marriage and abortion rights subject to the DUP backing a massaged WDA to exit the EU on the 31st October
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 19,234

    Last nights debate justified my 'neither' ballot.

    Boris trys to be the showman but is frightening short of detail and Hunt trys too hard to inspire and fails. It looks like Boris will walk it but It will only be the start of a traumatic period in our politics

    Yesterday's correct vote by the HOC on NI gay marriage and abortion rights has infuriated the DUP

    Now here is a theory, Boris does a deal not to implement the gay marriage and abortion rights subject to the DUP backing a massaged WDA to exit the EU on the 31st October

    or, the DUP must be able to see the way the tide is flowing on both equal marriage and abortion - with the RoI no longer a catholic dominated museum piece the North is out on a limb - and it is easier for the DUP and its base to have change thrust upon them from Westminster than having to embrace it themselves or use their veto against a Stormont majority.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 11,905
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Palmer, that's true.

    Putin, on the other hand, or South American dictators... how's the socialist miracle going in Venezuela, incidentally?

    The socialist miracle is severely hampered by US economic sanctions.
    It's surprising in that case that the personal wealth of the Chavez and Maduro families still seems to be accumulating.
    Perhaps they have invested in American stocks and shares.
    Really? I thought the Americans took a billion dollars off one of Maduro's gangsters, oops, Ministers only a few months ago when they locked him up for corruption.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-46357513
    Damned if I know. Unlike many on pb, but like, as it turned out, the British electorate, I really don't follow Venezuelan politics.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 16,708
    Keeping him until December is a no cost option, I don't know what Boris is thinking.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 9,401
    Remarkably Gordon brown as worst PM in my lifetime is set to be outdone by the buffoon seemingly getting the keys to no. 10. This is not a prize the tories should aspire for but there you go, I can get my 'don't blame me I voted for ken' t-shirt and watch the brexiteers fall out with each other.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 44,977
    I'm sure Boris will be fine.

    I dont get some people though. I get that after the leak it is difficult for the ambassador to do his job now Trump is being a baby, but those saying merely holding the opinion he has of the situation is wrong of the ambassador baffle me. Are they actually saying all our ambassadors have to like the leaders of wherever they are posted? Thats crazy. There doesnt seem any evidence to date the job cannot be done while giving a negative assessment of the situation, the leak is just very problematic.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 75,750

    It all makes sense why Mrs May tried to block Boris Johnson receiving sensitive intelligence material.

    Is Boris Johnson the biggest traitor to this country since Roger Hollis?

    Interesting Johnson and Hollis are alumni of that nest of traitors that is Oxford University.

    I thought Commie spies went to Cambridge...
    The Cambridge Five were triple agents.

    Sir Roger Hollis et al were bona fide traitors.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Hollis#Mole_suspicions
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 19,063
    MaxPB said:

    I don't know what Boris is thinking.

    There's an assumption in that sub clause. May I ask what evidence you have that Boris is capable of thinking?

    Have a good morning.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 11,556

    Roger said:

    There is also the question of loyalty to consider. Loyalty is earned, not bestowed. If everyone knows that the Prime Minister is going to let anyone swing in the wind rather than spend political capital backing up even the most senior professional colleagues, who is going to go out on a limb for him?

    What I have found utterly depressing is the craven toadying of politicians I have known and liked for many years who have signed up to the manifestly unfit Johnson, presumably in the hope of preferment.
    Yes it's quite something when Alan Duncan looks like a model of integrity. I wonder whether 'HANCOCK' might enter the Oxford dictionary like 'Quisling' to fill the gaping hole which necessitated you using ten words to describe.

    'HANDCOCK (N) .... a craven toadying politician who will support any leader in the hope of preferment'



    You could apply that to most MPs
    There are degrees and if it's as common as you suggest it needs a word to describe it. I'm sure a 'Quisling' could have been a 'Petain' but it didn't quite have the onomatopoeiac quality of something slippery. 'Handcock' is in the right direction
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 34,292
    So rumours of joining the LibDems (or failing to get the seats they wanted according to Guido) untrue....

  • nico67nico67 Posts: 1,923
    What a spineless buffoon Bozo is, first his Trump arse licking and then desperate not to offend the nutjobs in the DUP.

  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 5,541
    edited July 10
    IanB2 said:

    Streeter said:

    There is also the question of loyalty to consider. Loyalty is earned, not bestowed. If everyone knows that the Prime Minister is going to let anyone swing in the wind rather than spend political capital backing up even the most senior professional colleagues, who is going to go out on a limb for him?

    What I have found utterly depressing is the craven toadying of politicians I have known and liked for many years who have signed up to the manifestly unfit Johnson, presumably in the hope of preferment.
    Mildly amusing to see another Tory ramper (paging Big G) from who’s eyes the scales have fallen.
    You need to review the posts more widely, Streeter. There are many regular and respected posters here on the left and right who have about had it with the two main Parties.

    They are however symbiotically linked, and it is likely that as Boris gets his honeymoon and some BXP supporters return, Labour’s rating too will blip upwards. Indeed both effects are evident already in latest polls
    With my betting hat on I really don't see the recent modest recovery in the polls for Conservative of Labour continuing much further. In fact their short and medium term prospects appear dire.

    I should say the sitution is worse for the Conservatives not just in that they are likely to drop further than Labour, but also the prospects for recovery in due course appear slimmer.

    Last nite's debate did nothing to disabuse me of this view.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 19,234

    So rumours of joining the LibDems (or failing to get the seats they wanted according to Guido) untrue....

    Not Sarah, though.

    So now there is Chuka in the LDs, the diehard Indys still in CUK, this new group, and Sarah in the LD waiting room?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 11,905

    Last nights debate justified my 'neither' ballot.

    Boris trys to be the showman but is frightening short of detail and Hunt trys too hard to inspire and fails. It looks like Boris will walk it but It will only be the start of a traumatic period in our politics

    Yesterday's correct vote by the HOC on NI gay marriage and abortion rights has infuriated the DUP

    Now here is a theory, Boris does a deal not to implement the gay marriage and abortion rights subject to the DUP backing a massaged WDA to exit the EU on the 31st October

    Quite possibly.

    Boris (or Hunt) will have eight weeks to square the DUP during the recess, and at the same time extend the transition period to allow time to spaff some money on some geeks find a technical solution to the Irish border problem. This punts the hated backstop into the long grass and means we can exit on halloween. Boris can go to the country with Brexit achieved and aircraft still flying and if Nigel Farage thinks it is BINO, who cares? Most voters will see that we are out and that is an end to it.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 11,905
    edited July 10

    So rumours of joining the LibDems (or failing to get the seats they wanted according to Guido) untrue....

    twitter.com/hzeffman/status/1148841073671884800

    Rumours of Tig/Cuk being able to organise a piss-up in a brewery are also untrue. They really are the Chris Grayling of British politics.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 3,391
    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't know what Boris is thinking.

    There's an assumption in that sub clause. May I ask what evidence you have that Boris is capable of thinking?
    Boris is an exceptional politician - charming, personable, entertaining. That he is known as "Boris" is proof of just how effective he is. That he does so despite being an utter spanner just reinforces his exceptional political nous.

    That said, Boris in PM would be entertaining only in the sense of Trump in the White House is entertaining.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 34,292
    Denis Thatcher? Some trace it to The Bible....

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 11,905

    Remarkably Gordon brown as worst PM in my lifetime is set to be outdone by the buffoon seemingly getting the keys to no. 10. This is not a prize the tories should aspire for but there you go, I can get my 'don't blame me I voted for ken' t-shirt and watch the brexiteers fall out with each other.

    David Cameron is the worst prime minister since Lord North. It is quite possible he will retain that title even after Boris has been and gone.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 8,786
    The Brexiteers have gone full Maoist. They don't yet murder ambassadors, but the motivations are the same as the 1960s Chinese Red Guards.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 34,292
    Why are the EU being intransigent on Citizen's rights? There are more EU Citizens in the UK than UK Citizens in the EU...

  • CiceroCicero Posts: 342
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Speaking of wealth, does anyone know how the Trump family firm is doing now the boys are running it because dad and big sis are otherwise engaged?

    Could it be doing much worse than it did under Trump?
    Well Trump did make billions...
    He also lost billions.
    I
    t is widely believed in the US that Trump doesn't release his tax returns for two reasons: 1) he's not actually that rich and 2) the only reason he survives at all is a great deal of his business has been backed by Russian mafiosi for at least 10 years.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 9,401

    Remarkably Gordon brown as worst PM in my lifetime is set to be outdone by the buffoon seemingly getting the keys to no. 10. This is not a prize the tories should aspire for but there you go, I can get my 'don't blame me I voted for ken' t-shirt and watch the brexiteers fall out with each other.

    David Cameron is the worst prime minister since Lord North. It is quite possible he will retain that title even after Boris has been and gone.
    The coalition years were a relative haven of political sense and maturity...
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 14,369

    Denis Thatcher? Some trace it to The Bible....

    Wasn't Jo Maugham one of the people who thought that New Forest council was sending BXP leaflets with their postal votes ?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 8,548
    IanB2 said:

    So rumours of joining the LibDems (or failing to get the seats they wanted according to Guido) untrue....

    Not Sarah, though.

    So now there is Chuka in the LDs, the diehard Indys still in CUK, this new group, and Sarah in the LD waiting room?
    "Unity is Strength"
  • eekeek Posts: 4,192
    edited July 10

    Remarkably Gordon brown as worst PM in my lifetime is set to be outdone by the buffoon seemingly getting the keys to no. 10. This is not a prize the tories should aspire for but there you go, I can get my 'don't blame me I voted for ken' t-shirt and watch the brexiteers fall out with each other.

    David Cameron is the worst prime minister since Lord North. It is quite possible he will retain that title even after Boris has been and gone.
    I suspect Boris is going to win on the time served front - for it's likely to be measured in weeks rather than years
  • eekeek Posts: 4,192

    Last nights debate justified my 'neither' ballot.

    Boris trys to be the showman but is frightening short of detail and Hunt trys too hard to inspire and fails. It looks like Boris will walk it but It will only be the start of a traumatic period in our politics

    Yesterday's correct vote by the HOC on NI gay marriage and abortion rights has infuriated the DUP

    Now here is a theory, Boris does a deal not to implement the gay marriage and abortion rights subject to the DUP backing a massaged WDA to exit the EU on the 31st October

    How - the law is required because we need to delay Northern Ireland elections so Boris can't scrap the bill - equally he can't remove the offending items as Parliament voted for them.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 14,369

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    I don't know what Boris is thinking.

    There's an assumption in that sub clause. May I ask what evidence you have that Boris is capable of thinking?
    Boris is an exceptional politician - charming, personable, entertaining. That he is known as "Boris" is proof of just how effective he is. That he does so despite being an utter spanner just reinforces his exceptional political nous.

    That said, Boris in PM would be entertaining only in the sense of Trump in the White House is entertaining.

    Trump is entertaining in a horrifying way but that's better than being horrifying.

    There are other US Presidents and would-be US Presidents who would now be deep into military action against Iran. Hillary Clinton I suspect would be one such.

    We should be grateful that Trump is more interested in twatter posturing rather than real world doing.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 19,234

    Why are the EU being intransigent on Citizen's rights? There are more EU Citizens in the UK than UK Citizens in the EU...

    Barnier is serving his notice and none of the outgoing lot can afford to make big decisions like that now; it'll be left for the new lot who start in November. Another reason why Bozo's deadline doesn't work.
  • eekeek Posts: 4,192
    It's probably worth posting this



    Just to remind people that the options are really No Deal, May's Deal or Revoke.

    Oh and No Deal will result in us agreeing to May's Deal or a variation of it very quickly as unexpected items occur...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 19,234

    Last nights debate justified my 'neither' ballot.

    Boris trys to be the showman but is frightening short of detail and Hunt trys too hard to inspire and fails. It looks like Boris will walk it but It will only be the start of a traumatic period in our politics

    Yesterday's correct vote by the HOC on NI gay marriage and abortion rights has infuriated the DUP

    Now here is a theory, Boris does a deal not to implement the gay marriage and abortion rights subject to the DUP backing a massaged WDA to exit the EU on the 31st October

    Quite possibly.

    Boris (or Hunt) will have eight weeks to square the DUP during the recess, and at the same time extend the transition period to allow time to spaff some money on some geeks find a technical solution to the Irish border problem. This punts the hated backstop into the long grass and means we can exit on halloween. Boris can go to the country with Brexit achieved and aircraft still flying and if Nigel Farage thinks it is BINO, who cares? Most voters will see that we are out and that is an end to it.
    They may see that we are out, but I very much doubt that will be an end to it. Merely the end of the beginning, to quote someone who's name escapes me.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 11,905

    Remarkably Gordon brown as worst PM in my lifetime is set to be outdone by the buffoon seemingly getting the keys to no. 10. This is not a prize the tories should aspire for but there you go, I can get my 'don't blame me I voted for ken' t-shirt and watch the brexiteers fall out with each other.

    David Cameron is the worst prime minister since Lord North. It is quite possible he will retain that title even after Boris has been and gone.
    The coalition years were a relative haven of political sense and maturity...
    Universal credit, Lansley's NHS changes, and almost losing Scotland. Theresa May played a poor hand badly but it is Cameron who dealt the cards.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 14,369

    Remarkably Gordon brown as worst PM in my lifetime is set to be outdone by the buffoon seemingly getting the keys to no. 10. This is not a prize the tories should aspire for but there you go, I can get my 'don't blame me I voted for ken' t-shirt and watch the brexiteers fall out with each other.

    David Cameron is the worst prime minister since Lord North. It is quite possible he will retain that title even after Boris has been and gone.
    The coalition years were a relative haven of political sense and maturity...
    The coalition years were when the seeds were sown.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 25,474
    Never mind popcorn, settle back with a glass of whisky:

  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 1,499
    IanB2 said:

    Why are the EU being intransigent on Citizen's rights? There are more EU Citizens in the UK than UK Citizens in the EU...

    Barnier is serving his notice and none of the outgoing lot can afford to make big decisions like that now; it'll be left for the new lot who start in November. Another reason why Bozo's deadline doesn't work.
    It was always the case that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed and that there would be no cherry picking.
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