I agree with Massie on that. Ok, we won't always make a good judgement on the question, but 'would I attack issue X if my side did it?' or indeed the reverse, is a pretty good rule of thumb for determining just how partisan an attack is.
Indeed. If Corbyn was refusing to rule out proroging Parliament to get something controversial through how would people react?
- “In my view, the most likely source of the leaks is a former subordinate taking revenge for years of bullying, or a present one trying to get rid of an unpleasant boss.”
The most embarrassing thing about this for Labour is the bizarre nature of their statement in response. It's so badly put together and unconvincing you would think Jeffrey Archer would blench at it.
I cannot speak to the latter part, I cannot criticise their actions as displayed in the programme as I am not watching it, but they left out that whatever her background she is, now, a complete Corbyn loyalist and a frontline politician who sticks to the party line like any frontline politician does. Whatever her past works, good or ill, the context that she is now a reliably loyalist mouthpiece is worth noting.
Plenty of eminent and worthy people also are not perfect and get things wrong after all.
The most embarrassing thing about this for Labour is the bizarre nature of their statement in response. It's so badly put together and unconvincing you would think Jeffrey Archer would blench at it.
Somebody tell Nick Boles a 40% LD vote finishes both Boris and Jeremy consigning them both to the dustbin of history where they belong.
How do the Lib Dems hit 40%?
Currently level with the Conservatives on 23% and capable of hoovering up more votes from those disenchanted with Johnson and Corbyn.
The reason many people vote Conservative or Labour is not because they are strongly pro-Conservative or pro-Labour but they are anti the other party and vote for the one party because they believe if they don't the other party will get in. Break the spell and the two old parties fall apart - it's happened in by-elections before.
As for 40%, I'm aiming high - 35% will do fine. The split Con, Lab and TBP votes will do the rest.
Encouraged by a good slogan, 35% might actually vote LD this time. Exceptional times call for exceptional measures.
If Boris win a parliamentary majority for Brexit, Deal or No Deal before October 31st that is what would happen as he would not ask for an extension and Parliament would not try and force him to ask for an extension.
There may be some No Deal tidying up bills and subsequent renegotiation of the Withdrawal Agreement to at least remove the temporary Customs Union for GB but with no extension requested we would leave the EU on 31st October
Deal requires time to get the bills through Parliament. No Deal requires time to get bills through Parliament\
If Boris campaigns on a No Deal Brexit the Tory party is totally and utterly toast.
You may not see it yet but I can imagine the posters already - mine aren't even the beginning of them...
I can easily explain in 8 steps enough to scare your average Leave Pensioner back to Labour....
It ends with less tax revenue, less money to pay your pension and no legal requirement to do so as we are outside the EU...
No Deal requires no bills, just refusal to extend.
Only the process make No Deal more orderly requires bills.
The Tories will only be toast if they do not campaign to deliver Brexit, provided they campaign to deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal they will be fine
Genuine question - will Corbyn himself actually watch the programme or will he simply be briefed on its contents?
His allotment needed watering tonight.
To be sure.
But I would be very interested nonetheless. Let's say it was nothing but a biased hatchet job, his reaction to personally seeing it would be interesting, and if any part of it has elements which are troubling, then I wonder at how a man who sees himself as so righteous on these issues would react to that, even if he could not do so publicly because of his position.
If Boris win a parliamentary majority for Brexit, Deal or No Deal before October 31st that is what would happen as he would not ask for an extension and Parliament would not try and force him to ask for an extension.
There may be some No Deal tidying up bills and subsequent renegotiation of the Withdrawal Agreement to at least remove the temporary Customs Union for GB but with no extension requested we would leave the EU on 31st October
Deal requires time to get the bills through Parliament. No Deal requires time to get bills through Parliament\
If Boris campaigns on a No Deal Brexit the Tory party is totally and utterly toast.
You may not see it yet but I can imagine the posters already - mine aren't even the beginning of them...
I can easily explain in 8 steps enough to scare your average Leave Pensioner back to Labour....
It ends with less tax revenue, less money to pay your pension and no legal requirement to do so as we are outside the EU...
No Deal requires no bills, just refusal to extend.
Only the process make No Deal more orderly requires bills.
The Tories will only be toast if they do not campaign to deliver Brexit, provided they campaign to deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal they will be fine
No deal requires Bills to be passed - the fact you think it doesn't shows as much attention to detail as Boris gives...
I notice that you haven't commented on the second point so you think a pensioner scared for their pension outside the EU is still going to vote for a No Deal Brexit and lose their free NHS prescriptions as well...
One of the participants has just said he actively considered committing suicide
That is just dreadful. When are labour mps going to deal with this crisis
Never. They are spineless
Labour MPs either don't believe there are problems in the party, or they think the good of a Labour government under Corbyn are more important than those problems. I'd have more respect for his internal opponents if they admitted there is nothing that could stop them campaigning to make Corbyn PM because even if they dislike him they think he is better than the Tories. Without acknowledging that they have made that calculation the moaners are just irritating - at least the Corbyn supporting MPs are direct.
I think the problem is that if you believe the state of Israel should not exist then almost everything Jewish people do is translated into support for that state and therefore not anti Semitic. Having taken that view then others let their more fundamental racist views take hold and make individual Jewish people’s lives intolerable. Now it wasn’t covered in the program but I have started to wonder how important the Muslim vote is to labour is Jess Phillips the only labour MP to tackle the protesters at schools in the midlands?
If Boris win a parliamentary majority for Brexit, Deal or No Deal before October 31st that is what would happen as he would not ask for an extension and Parliament would not try and force him to ask for an extension.
There may be some No Deal tidying up bills and subsequent renegotiation of the Withdrawal Agreement to at least remove the temporary Customs Union for GB but with no extension requested we would leave the EU on 31st October
Deal requires time to get the bills through Parliament. No Deal requires time to get bills through Parliament\
If Boris campaigns on a No Deal Brexit the Tory party is totally and utterly toast.
You may not see it yet but I can imagine the posters already - mine aren't even the beginning of them...
I can easily explain in 8 steps enough to scare your average Leave Pensioner back to Labour....
It ends with less tax revenue, less money to pay your pension and no legal requirement to do so as we are outside the EU...
No Deal requires no bills, just refusal to extend.
Only the process make No Deal more orderly requires bills.
The Tories will only be toast if they do not campaign to deliver Brexit, provided they campaign to deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal they will be fine
No deal requires Bills to be passed - the fact you think it doesn't shows as much attention to detail as Boris gives...
I notice that you haven't commented on the second point so you think a pensioner scared for their pension outside the EU is going to vote for a No Deal Brexit and lose their free NHS prescriptions as well...
No, as Article 50 has already been passed by Parliament, the EU will not even consider granting a further extension of Article 50 without a request from the UK PM and Parliament so by default we leave the EU on October 31st without that.
Not one No Deal Bill needs to be passed to make it happen, only to make the effects of No Deal a bit more orderly
I think the problem is that if you believe the state of Israel should not exist then almost everything Jewish people do is translated into support for that state and therefore not anti Semitic. Having taken that view then others let their more fundamental racist views take hold and make individual Jewish people’s lives intolerable. Now it wasn’t covered in the program but I have started to wonder how important the Muslim vote is to labour is Jess Phillips the only labour MP to tackle the protesters at schools in the midlands?
Jess Phillips is an absolute beast of an MP to be fair. It’s unfair on others to be compared to her!
Somebody tell Nick Boles a 40% LD vote finishes both Boris and Jeremy consigning them both to the dustbin of history where they belong.
How do the Lib Dems hit 40%?
Currently level with the Conservatives on 23% and capable of hoovering up more votes from those disenchanted with Johnson and Corbyn.
The reason many people vote Conservative or Labour is not because they are strongly pro-Conservative or pro-Labour but they are anti the other party and vote for the one party because they believe if they don't the other party will get in. Break the spell and the two old parties fall apart - it's happened in by-elections before.
As for 40%, I'm aiming high - 35% will do fine. The split Con, Lab and TBP votes will do the rest.
FPTP is the reason that most people continue to vote for the Duopoly in GE's. When there is a chance of your vote actually not being wasted people are free to vote for their real preferences as they did in the Euros.
If Boris win a parliamentary majority for Brexit, Deal or No Deal before October 31st that is what would happen as he would not ask for an extension and Parliament would not try and force him to ask for an extension.
There may be some No Deal tidying up bills and subsequent renegotiation of the Withdrawal Agreement to at least remove the temporary Customs Union for GB but with no extension requested we would leave the EU on 31st October
Deal requires time to get the bills through Parliament. No Deal requires time to get bills through Parliament\
If Boris campaigns on a No Deal Brexit the Tory party is totally and utterly toast.
You may not see it yet but I can imagine the posters already - mine aren't even the beginning of them...
I can easily explain in 8 steps enough to scare your average Leave Pensioner back to Labour....
It ends with less tax revenue, less money to pay your pension and no legal requirement to do so as we are outside the EU...
No Deal requires no bills, just refusal to extend.
Only the process make No Deal more orderly requires bills.
The Tories will only be toast if they do not campaign to deliver Brexit, provided they campaign to deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal they will be fine
No deal requires Bills to be passed - the fact you think it doesn't shows as much attention to detail as Boris gives...
I notice that you haven't commented on the second point so you think a pensioner scared for their pension outside the EU is going to vote for a No Deal Brexit and lose their free NHS prescriptions as well...
No, as Article 50 has already been passed by Parliament, the EU will not even consider granting a further extension of Article 50 without a request from the UK PM and Parliament so by default we leave the EU on October 31st without that.
Not one No Deal Bill needs to be passed to make it happen, only to make the effects of No Deal a bit more orderly
Once again - dear leave voting pensioner - nice collection of prescription drugs there. How are you going to pay for it now the US controls the NHS?
It's hardly a fresh observation, but Boris is like Corbyn - when he gets attacked, his fans only believe in him more because people out there are trying to stop him.
I don't quite know how opponents to such people can effectively operate as a result.
Thick as mince / only ever been a politician from 21 years old....sums up state of affairs.
Doesn’t that sum up a lot of our politicians including corbyn and many more I actually can’t think of many, well I can think of a few who have had a real job, but I’m sure others will know better better than me.
Thick as mince / only ever been a politician from 21 years old....sums up state of affairs.
Doesn’t that sum up a lot of our politicians including corbyn and many more I actually can’t think of many, well I can think of a few who have had a real job, but I’m sure others will know better better than me.
It's hardly a fresh observation, but Boris is like Corbyn - when he gets attacked, his fans only believe in him more because people out there are trying to stop him.
I don't quite know how opponents to such people can effectively operate as a result.
Won’t make a blind bit of difference . Most are watching Love Island or are bored to tears with Labours never ending saga on anti Semitism .
People filter out anything they don’t like about politicians or parties and that’s the times we live in.
I think it will make a difference. It was a damaging programme in its quiet insidious way.
The public's mind is made up. Surely something like this will only make a difference if it leads to action within the party in a way that cannot be ignored. The Tiggers almost managed it, they provoked a reaction to circle the wagons and showed that most of their fellows will never go anywhere beyond self contratlatory twitter rhetoric about their concerns, but with the party in a difficult spot over the EU and an election possibly imminent (and if they split for real that an election is probably certain), then the cold hard reality seems to be even those party members who do accept such a programme will not truly react.
How can @NickPalmer justify being associated with these people??
"I have known Jeremy for a long time and I know he is a honourable man without a racist bone in his body....the problem is not as serious as the BBC made out and so I stand with Jeremy"
How can @NickPalmer justify being associated with these people??
"I have known Jeremy for a long time and I know he is a honourable man without a racist bone in his body....the problem is not as serious as the BBC made out and so I stand with Jeremy"
Please can we have a Labour leadership contest, just a quick one? They can elect the most Corbynite Corbyn fan they have, but it is really not fair that everyone else is having fun with a contest and not them.
I don't much fancy going to civil war against Marquee, GIN et al, but on days like today, with them spouting as they are,, I begin to wonder ....
Do you think you might just be going a tiny bit over the top?
If Parliament is prorogued the people will hit the @Streeter . We don’t hold with coups in this country.
I wouldn’t worry too much. We Leavers are all aged or degenerate anyway
The PM going to see HMQ to ask her to use a prerogative power she's used a dozen or so times before is not really a coup, Streeter. And to use the Massie test, were Corbyn doing it I'd think he was a sneaky old bugger and I don't think I'd be singing his praises but I wouldn't be making up nonsense about JRing his advice to HMQ (Major, J). I wouldn't be seeking to tack a change in preogative powers onto an NI Bill (Grieve, D). And I certainly wouldn't be suggesting convening Parliament across the road to bypass HMQ and the Executive (Stewart, R).
Actually, if that last one's not a coup, it'll do until the coup gets here.
How can @NickPalmer justify being associated with these people??
"I have known Jeremy for a long time and I know he is a honourable man without a racist bone in his body....the problem is not as serious as the BBC made out and so I stand with Jeremy"
Something like that?
Personally I have only 3 racist bones in my body. That's a pretty low percentage, so I think I'm alright, but should I get checked out?
It's hardly a fresh observation, but Boris is like Corbyn - when he gets attacked, his fans only believe in him more because people out there are trying to stop him.
I don't quite know how opponents to such people can effectively operate as a result.
And Trump. The evidence tends to suggest that once they lead their party, there is no effective way to oppose them within that party.
Obligatory “so what are you going to do about it??”
Stand against Corbyn and finally bring this civil war to its head?
But Corbyn would win again and then what?
Then the party formally splits. At local levels this kind of thing has already happened. I could give you a very local example...
A challenge is needed. By Watson. If Watson wins the party splits. If Corbyn wins the party splits. I do not want to coexist with those people. They do not want to coexist with us.
Thick as mince / only ever been a politician from 21 years old....sums up state of affairs.
Doesn’t that sum up a lot of our politicians including corbyn and many more I actually can’t think of many, well I can think of a few who have had a real job, but I’m sure others will know better better than me.
Thick as mince / only ever been a politician from 21 years old....sums up state of affairs.
Doesn’t that sum up a lot of our politicians including corbyn and many more I actually can’t think of many, well I can think of a few who have had a real job, but I’m sure others will know better better than me.
That was my point....
I have to say unless he was involved in three lions I’ve never heard from him
If Boris win a parliamentary majority for Brexit, Deal or No Deal before October 31st that is what would happen as he would not ask for an extension and Parliament would not try and force him to ask for an extension.
There may be some No Deal tidying up bills and subsequent renegotiation of the Withdrawal Agreement to at least remove the temporary Customs Union for GB but with no extension requested we would leave the EU on 31st October
Deal requires time to get the bills through Parliament. No Deal requires time to get bills through Parliament\
If Boris campaigns on a No Deal Brexit the Tory party is totally and utterly toast.
You may not see it yet but I can imagine the posters already - mine aren't even the beginning of them...
I can easily explain in 8 steps enough to scare your average Leave Pensioner back to Labour....
It ends with less tax revenue, less money to pay your pension and no legal requirement to do so as we are outside the EU...
No Deal requires no bills, just refusal to extend.
Only the process make No Deal more orderly requires bills.
The Tories will only be toast if they do not campaign to deliver Brexit, provided they campaign to deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal they will be fine
No deal requires Bills to be passed - the fact you think it doesn't shows as much attention to detail as Boris gives...
I notice that you haven't commented on the second point so you think a pensioner scared for their pension outside the EU is going to vote for a No Deal Brexit and lose their free NHS prescriptions as well...
No, as Article 50 has already been passed by Parliament, the EU will not even consider granting a further extension of Article 50 without a request from the UK PM and Parliament so by default we leave the EU on October 31st without that.
Not one No Deal Bill needs to be passed to make it happen, only to make the effects of No Deal a bit more orderly
Once again - dear leave voting pensioner - nice collection of prescription drugs there. How are you going to pay for it now the US controls the NHS?
We get supplies of prescription drugs from the US now as well as elsewhere in the world, as Boris said the savings from EU contributions will go onto the NHS
Even the keyboard warrior outriders will know in their heart of hearts that what they have to tweet is a load of nonsense
I think that is pretty optimistic. If there are a few things the internet age has taught us it is the value of the enthusiastic amateur (so most don't need to be paid to write garbage, they do it for free) and the other is that no matter how crazy a view might be, the idea the person writing it does not actually believe what they are saying is probably wrong. It's almost encouraging to think that, because it means those opposed to us are just bad people doing it simply because they are opponents, rather than because the truly think those things.
I think my first test of whether this latest stuff has any breakthrough will be if anyone mentions it in the office tomorrow. Not that I think many will have watched it - heck, I have not - but to see if the reporting on it has broken through and what the reaction to that reporting is at least.
I know Wes very well. He is genuinely torn. He is ambitious, and hopes for a long future in the Labour Party, which he joined very young. He knows that leaving normally means the wilderness (cf. CUK). Yet the type of party he wants to support isn’t the one he is currently a member of. He clings to the hope that a second Blair will arise (or maybe sees a future self as such). But I fear he is going to be disappointed.
Comments
That is just dreadful. When are labour mps going to deal with this crisis
- “In my view, the most likely source of the leaks is a former subordinate taking revenge for years of bullying, or a present one trying to get rid of an unpleasant boss.”
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/07/kim-darroch-the-simple-explanation/
Plenty of eminent and worthy people also are not perfect and get things wrong after all.
https://twitter.com/SimonFraser00/status/1149035749066661889
The evidence is clear.
All Labour seems capable of now is blustering and smearing.
Sad.
I also thought it was very well done. It began quietly, but built up to a slow and clever demolition, saving the most powerful stuff for the end.
Only the process make No Deal more orderly requires bills.
The Tories will only be toast if they do not campaign to deliver Brexit, provided they campaign to deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal they will be fine
But I would be very interested nonetheless. Let's say it was nothing but a biased hatchet job, his reaction to personally seeing it would be interesting, and if any part of it has elements which are troubling, then I wonder at how a man who sees himself as so righteous on these issues would react to that, even if he could not do so publicly because of his position.
Plus, we heard from a dozen, maybe more, staffers. The weight of evidence was monumental.
I notice that you haven't commented on the second point so you think a pensioner scared for their pension outside the EU is still going to vote for a No Deal Brexit and lose their free NHS prescriptions as well...
If we don't give airtime to the BNP, why should they be any different
People filter out anything they don’t like about politicians or parties and that’s the times we live in.
The Lab press team have just accused the BBC of making up quotes?
If I was Ware I would be tempted to contact my lawyers.
Not one No Deal Bill needs to be passed to make it happen, only to make the effects of No Deal a bit more orderly
Obligatory “so what are you going to do about it??”
I don't quite know how opponents to such people can effectively operate as a result.
He is a disgrace and beyond redemption.
On the other hand, Labour will be more confident in Luton and Bradford, AND THAT IS LABOUR'S PROBLEM.
Always the mission.
Something like that?
Actually, if that last one's not a coup, it'll do until the coup gets here.
... plus, why are you still a Labour MP?
The evidence tends to suggest that once they lead their party, there is no effective way to oppose them within that party.
https://twitter.com/ronanburtenshaw/status/1149060783847944192
Another one facing legal action by Ware?
I think that is pretty optimistic. If there are a few things the internet age has taught us it is the value of the enthusiastic amateur (so most don't need to be paid to write garbage, they do it for free) and the other is that no matter how crazy a view might be, the idea the person writing it does not actually believe what they are saying is probably wrong. It's almost encouraging to think that, because it means those opposed to us are just bad people doing it simply because they are opponents, rather than because the truly think those things.
I think my first test of whether this latest stuff has any breakthrough will be if anyone mentions it in the office tomorrow. Not that I think many will have watched it - heck, I have not - but to see if the reporting on it has broken through and what the reaction to that reporting is at least.