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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Boris vacillated on Darroch because he’s weak, not because of

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  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    HYUFD said:

    Mr. HYUFD, if Boris has charisma then why do many here were formerly pro-Boris (I very much enjoyed his daft Olympics speech) now regard him in a rather inferior light?

    If familiarity breeds contempt then perhaps that charisma is a shiny veneer beneath which there's an incompetent.

    If Boris is determined, why did he hide in Afghanistan rather than resign over the Heathrow decision?

    If he's ruthless, why did he only leave the Cabinet when Davis jumped first?

    It's a funny sort of leadership to hide from commitment, and to follow what someone else does.

    As he backed Leave mainly and is committed to delivering it Deal or No Deal, most on here are either diehard Remainers or soft BINO Brexiteers. It took courage for Boris to go against the establishment and back Leave and then win tgat campaign in 2016.

    Plenty of PBers would have backed Halifax over Churchill in 1939 and plenty would have backed Heath over Thatcher in 1975 just as they are backing Hunt over Boris rather than backing a rebel prepared to buck the consensus of the British establishment
    The average no deal Leaver would have backed Mosley over Churchill.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    the sheer contempt for democracy of diehard Remainers in both voting against the Withdrawal Agreement

    Like Boris did twice?
    As it contained a temporary Customs Union for GB Boris will remove, he still voted for it at MV3 rather than risk extension and no Brexit on the original Brexit date
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    FF43 said:

    He has a point, although I wouldn't say it's a strategic one. There's a difference between a clear understanding of the reality us and celebrating weakness on your own side

    On the other hand, the refusal ever to deal with reality is the strategic mistake made by the cause he espouses. In the case of Ireland, to acknowledge Ireland has legitimate interests, which they decide on and which they have some leverage over. As Ireland holds a significant Brexit key, it would be sensible to try to engage Ireland as an ally rather than treat it and its interests with aggressive condescension.
    The other thing is the Irish completely outplayed the UK in Brussels (not that that would have been difficult...), but I doubt history will be kind to Varadkar.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    eek said:

    I think you assume that in elections people vote for the best candidate. I don't think they do - they vote for the least worst that has a chance of winning - and for a lot of people Boris means the Tories are no longer the least worst..

    A lot may hinge on voters views of the Lib Dems. Will they believe that they have a chance of winning? Will they believe that they have a basic level of competence?

    On the latter the risk is that there's something a bit am-dram about the Lib Dems. You wish them well and hope for the best, but you spend a lot of time worrying that they're going to forget their lines.

    The organization of the Brexit Party was impressive for the European elections, or it at least have the impression of being so, and the Lib Dems will need to be similarly well organised for a general election to convince. If there is any intention to do a pact with the Greens they need to sort the details out in advance, otherwise it risks looking chaotic and incompetent.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    FF43 said:

    Allied to David Herdson’s point, the course of the government will be set by those around Boris Johnson. Place your bets on how Brexit will be approached accordingly.

    Very astute point. Unexpectedly, the safest pair of hands at the moment are those of Liam Fox.
    Liam Fox, the only person to be driven sane by Brexit...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    HYUFD said:

    Lol at that Sun article.

    “There is also a view that the Government needs a grey-beard, an experienced figure who can help steady the ship...Iain Duncan Smith and Michael Fallon are being heavily tipped for this role.”

    IDS is a possibility to replace Lidington as Deputy PM under Boris I have heard

    A government of all the talents has-beens.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited July 2019
    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yawn. Yet another anti Boris diatribe of an article based purely on Boris hatred.

    The fact is without Boris leading it Vote Leave would not have won, had Farage been leading it it would likely have been a narrow Remain win and due to the sheer contempt for democracy of diehard Remainers in both voting against the Withdrawal Agreement and against No Deal it needs Boris to again deliver it.

    Only Boris has the determination, the ruthlessness and the charisma to finally defeat the diehard Remainers and deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal by October 31st. Yes if that requires proroguing Parliament to do so as a last resort so be it and if Parliament VONC him so be it too he can go to the country on a Brexit Deal or No Deal ticket with him or likely No Brexit at all with a Corbyn minority government propped up by the diehard Remainer LDs and SNP.

    As for accusations of laziness had Boris wanted to coast through Oxford he could have done PPE, instead he did Classics, on the whole a tougher degree especially after the economics element of PPE is dropped.

    The person who wrote that school report on Boris, Martin Hammond, was my old Headmaster but it says nothing beyond Boris was a maverick and did his own thing regardless of what the establishment expected of him.

    Churchill of course had similar school reports at Harrow and was equally as unconventional as Boris at the time, indeed had PB existed in 1939 I expect there would have been plenty of pro Chamberlain and pro Halifax and pro Munich Agreement articles and plenty of anti Churchill ones

    I think the general viewpoint is that the more people see of Boris the more obvious his screw ups become.

    Which is why I love your idea that Boris is going to win an election. As you may have noticed during this campaign Boris always takes the easy answer - which means he has promised something or other to everyone who has asked him a question.

    And if we look back to at the referendum you can see he did the same which is why Brexit won because everyone voted for their unicorn version of Brexit.

    However, when we hit a general election there will be a day like yesterday's Andrew Neil debate where all his promises will be placed one after another and he will be called out on his contradictions and at that moment votes will go another way.

    I think you assume that in elections people vote for the best candidate. I don't think they do - they vote for the least worst that has a chance of winning - and for a lot of people Boris means the Tories are no longer the least worst..
    People vote for candidates with a vision and charisma, Thatcher, Blair etc. In 2017 that was not May but was Corbyn to some extent, at the next general election it will be Boris
  • Big weekend of Sport - And all on pleb tv (not sure how Channel 4 are going to handle their clash though)

    Williams 1.56
    Halep 2.74

    England 1.34
    New Zealand 3.9

    Djokovic 1.59
    Federer 2.66

    Hamilton 1.7
    Bottas 5.1
    Vettel 9.8
    Le Clerc 14.5
    Verstappen 13

    Enjoy all
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited July 2019
    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    This site has never been right wing but establishment liberal and anti hard Brexit.

    There are other pro Boris posters on PB e.g. Philip Thompson, Gin, Viceroy of Orange etc but the PB consensus has always been anti Boris and I have long been one of the few arguing for him.

    However the view amongst Tory members and in the country as a whole is rather more pro Boris than on PB


    https://twitter.com/ConHome/status/1149210110666977286?s=20
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1148312432768684032?s=20
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    eek said:

    I think you assume that in elections people vote for the best candidate. I don't think they do - they vote for the least worst that has a chance of winning - and for a lot of people Boris means the Tories are no longer the least worst..

    A lot may hinge on voters views of the Lib Dems. Will they believe that they have a chance of winning? Will they believe that they have a basic level of competence?

    On the latter the risk is that there's something a bit am-dram about the Lib Dems. You wish them well and hope for the best, but you spend a lot of time worrying that they're going to forget their lines.

    The organization of the Brexit Party was impressive for the European elections, or it at least have the impression of being so, and the Lib Dems will need to be similarly well organised for a general election to convince. If there is any intention to do a pact with the Greens they need to sort the details out in advance, otherwise it risks looking chaotic and incompetent.
    Yes the presentational skills of TBP Ltd were good in the euros but look what a bunch of absolute fruit cakes it delivered the oddballs are too numerous to name but they will continue to embarrass many British people while providing mild amusement to the rest of the world.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Roger said:

    felix said:

    On this issue surprisingly I'm of the view that Boris's lack of backing should have been completely irrelevant to Darroch's resignation. Through no fault of his own his position was untenable. He had to resign. Blaming it on Boris seems like him playing politics which undermines to a degree my sympathy for him. I'd stress I'm no fan of Boris but to blame him in this instance is to miss the point.
    You miss the point. This isn't about Darroch it's about Johnson. He failed to give unequivocal support to a senior civil servant when any second rate MP let alone a former Foreign Secretary would have known that he should have done. His behaviour was pusillanimous and unfitting of a future PM.

    (Not s bad as having a fight with his slapper in the early hours but he seems to have got away with that one)
    Wrong. Darroch as a true diplomat should have resigned immediately once the leaks were out. If Boris's views or those of ANY other politician were influential in his decision to stay or go then it would reflect badly on Darroch. The person who deserves opprobrium is the leaker. I don't care for Boris and his remarks were pathetic but either way Darroch had to go once his position was compromised by the leaker. Your hatred of Boris blinds you to the issue in this case. Quel surprise!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. HYUFD, it makes a refreshing change for it to be implied I'm too pro-EU.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    HYUFD said:

    Yawn. Yet another anti Boris diatribe of an article based purely on Boris hatred.

    The fact is without Boris leading it Vote Leave would not have won, had Farage been leading it it would likely have been a narrow Remain win and due to the sheer contempt for democracy of diehard Remainers in both voting against the Withdrawal Agreement and against No Deal it needs Boris to again deliver it.

    Only Boris has the determination, the ruthlessness and the charisma to finally defeat the diehard Remainers and deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal by October 31st. Yes if that requires proroguing Parliament to do so as a last resort so be it and if Parliament VONC him so be it too he can go to the country on a Brexit Deal or No Deal ticket with him or likely No Brexit at all with a Corbyn minority government propped up by the diehard Remainer LDs and SNP.

    First things first, you accused me of being a Lib Dem last night. Fair enough, I joined the Liberal Party in 1980 so I can't gainsay that. Second, and in case you've forgotten in the Boris hysteria, I voted to LEAVE on 23/6/16.

    What I didn't vote for was the disorganised and ill thought-out shambles that has been the last three and a bit years. It was perfectly possible to get a deal which would have removed the UK from the political aspects yet maintained a strong economic relationship. However, you Tories decided only you knew what was best for Britain and the rest of us were politely but firmly told not to get involved and to "Trust Theresa".

    Now, we are supposed to walk over the cliff edge and leave without a Deal simply in order to satisfy some ludicrous notion of a democratic deficit and to make one individual look important. We are told the damage to democracy if we don't leave will be greater than the damage to the economy if we do leave without a Deal.

    Try telling that to the man or woman who loses their job this autumn or winter just in order to satisfy some ludicrous notion of a democratic deficit. Democratic deficits don't feed families or pay bills.

    I would like us to leave the EU - I do not want to damage the country in so doing. The failure of the Conservative Party and Government to achieve a proper and sustainable departure is something they deserve to be fully held to account.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    This site has never been right wing but establishment liberal and anti hard Brexit.

    There are other pro Boris posters on PB e.g. Philip Thompson, Gin, Viceroy of Orange etc but the PB consensus has always been anti Boris and I have long been one of the few arguing for him.

    However the view amongst Tory members and in the country as a whole is rather more pro Boris than on PB


    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1148312432768684032?s=20
    So you best response is a poll from before Boris throw the Foreign Office under a bus and he was caught out by Andrew Neil..

    I suppose we should be thankful the poll is a working week old rather than a month old but things may have changed since then. Heck the lack of support for Boris on this site seems to have dipped to 1 single poster...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. HYUFD, if Boris has charisma then why do many here were formerly pro-Boris (I very much enjoyed his daft Olympics speech) now regard him in a rather inferior light?

    If familiarity breeds contempt then perhaps that charisma is a shiny veneer beneath which there's an incompetent.

    If Boris is determined, why did he hide in Afghanistan rather than resign over the Heathrow decision?

    If he's ruthless, why did he only leave the Cabinet when Davis jumped first?

    It's a funny sort of leadership to hide from commitment, and to follow what someone else does.

    As he backed Leave mainly and is committed to delivering it Deal or No Deal, most on here are either diehard Remainers or soft BINO Brexiteers. It took courage for Boris to go against the establishment and back Leave and then win tgat campaign in 2016.

    Plenty of PBers would have backed Halifax over Churchill in 1939 and plenty would have backed Heath over Thatcher in 1975 just as they are backing Hunt over Boris rather than backing a rebel prepared to buck the consensus of the British establishment
    The average no deal Leaver would have backed Mosley over Churchill.
    No, those would be Tommy Robinson supporters.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    edited July 2019
    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    The site is composed of people who study and understand politics in depth.

    Therefore, they can all see that BoJo is an idiot.

    There was similar unanimity over Corbyn. In many ways he's been a worse disaster than we expected because he hasn't been an electoral calamity and Labour are consequently stuck with him. But it's hard to see Boris being anything other than the most pathetically inadequate party leader since the Marquess of Granby.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    We haven't heard much of the oh jeremy corbyn thing lately, but it's just popped up again...

    https://twitter.com/martin83239350/status/1149955480812511232
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:



    I think the general viewpoint is that the more people see of Boris the more obvious his screw ups become.

    Which is why I love your idea that Boris is going to win an election. As you may have noticed during this campaign Boris always takes the easy answer - which means he has promised something or other to everyone who has asked him a question.

    And if we look back to at the referendum you can see he did the same which is why Brexit won because everyone voted for their unicorn version of Brexit.

    However, when we hit a general election there will be a day like yesterday's Andrew Neil debate where all his promises will be placed one after another and he will be called out on his contradictions and at that moment votes will go another way.

    I think you assume that in elections people vote for the best candidate. I don't think they do - they vote for the least worst that has a chance of winning - and for a lot of people Boris means the Tories are no longer the least worst..

    People vote for candidates with a vision and charisma, Thatcher, Blair etc. In 2017 that was not May but was Corbyn to some extent, at the next general election it will be Boris
    We have different viewpoints - 1979 was a vote for change, 1997 a vote for change.

    The next election is not a vote for change - it's a vote for implementation and that means it's a pick the least worst candidate option.

    Already Boris is losing centralist voters to the Lib Dems and even Labour (granted that's possibly just my vote but it is a vote). When things don't work out on October 31st he will lose the Brexit vote to Nigel and then where will the party be...
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    felix said:

    Roger said:

    felix said:

    On this issue surprisingly I'm of the view that Boris's lack of backing should have been completely irrelevant to Darroch's resignation. Through no fault of his own his position was untenable. He had to resign. Blaming it on Boris seems like him playing politics which undermines to a degree my sympathy for him. I'd stress I'm no fan of Boris but to blame him in this instance is to miss the point.
    You miss the point. This isn't about Darroch it's about Johnson. He failed to give unequivocal support to a senior civil servant when any second rate MP let alone a former Foreign Secretary would have known that he should have done. His behaviour was pusillanimous and unfitting of a future PM.

    (Not s bad as having a fight with his slapper in the early hours but he seems to have got away with that one)
    Wrong. Darroch as a true diplomat should have resigned immediately once the leaks were out. If Boris's views or those of ANY other politician were influential in his decision to stay or go then it would reflect badly on Darroch. The person who deserves opprobrium is the leaker. I don't care for Boris and his remarks were pathetic but either way Darroch had to go once his position was compromised by the leaker. Your hatred of Boris blinds you to the issue in this case. Quel surprise!
    Even Donald Trump's? (who, by the way, seems to have somewhat changed his tune once other people have belatedly spoken up in contradiction of his rather hasty and intemperate (but entirely characteristic) initial reaction to the leaks)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    The site is composed of people who study and understand politics in depth.

    Therefore, they can all see that BoJo is an idiot.

    There was similar unanimity over Corbyn. In many ways he's been a worse disaster than we expected because he hasn't been an electoral calamity and Labour are consequently stuck with him. But it's hard to see Boris being anything other than the most pathetically inadequate party leader since the Marquess of Granby.
    If the consensus on this site had had its way it would be Liz Kendall v Rory Stewart at the next general election
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yawn. Yet another anti Boris diatribe of an article based purely on Boris hatred.

    The fact is without Boris leading it Vote Leave would not have won, had Farage been leading it it would likely have been a narrow Remain win and due to the sheer contempt for democracy of diehard Remainers in both voting against the Withdrawal Agreement and against No Deal it needs Boris to again deliver it.

    Only Boris has the determination, the ruthlessness and the charisma to finally defeat the diehard Remainers and deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal by October 31st. Yes if that requires proroguing Parliament to do so as a last resort so be it and if Parliament VONC him so be it too he can go to the country on a Brexit Deal or No Deal ticket with him or likely No Brexit at all with a Corbyn minority government propped up by the diehard Remainer LDs and SNP.

    First things first, you accused me of being a Lib Dem last night. Fair enough, I joined the Liberal Party in 1980 so I can't gainsay that. Second, and in case you've forgotten in the Boris hysteria, I voted to LEAVE on 23/6/16.

    What I didn't vote for was the disorganised and ill thought-out shambles that has been the last three and a bit years. It was perfectly possible to get a deal which would have removed the UK from the political aspects yet maintained a strong economic relationship. However, you Tories decided only you knew what was best for Britain and the rest of us were politely but firmly told not to get involved and to "Trust Theresa".

    Now, we are supposed to walk over the cliff edge and leave without a Deal simply in order to satisfy some ludicrous notion of a democratic deficit and to make one individual look important. We are told the damage to democracy if we don't leave will be greater than the damage to the economy if we do leave without a Deal.

    Try telling that to the man or woman who loses their job this autumn or winter just in order to satisfy some ludicrous notion of a democratic deficit. Democratic deficits don't feed families or pay bills.

    I would like us to leave the EU - I do not want to damage the country in so doing. The failure of the Conservative Party and Government to achieve a proper and sustainable departure is something they deserve to be fully held to account.
    The flaw in your argument is at the end. It is virtually impossible to leave the EU without economic and other damage. As an intelligent man you must have realised this when casting your vote.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Did we ever actually find out what is in 5c?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Recidivist, nice to see the youthful indoctrination programme is working well.

    Hopefully that sort of idiocy will prove as ephemeral as the Milibabes.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    HYUFD, which of these statements, if any, do you personally agree with?
    1) A severe economic downturn is a price worth paying to deliver Brexit
    2) The break up of the UK is a price worth paying to deliver Brexit
    3) The destruction of the Conservative Party is a price worth paying to deliver Brexit
    4) Jeremy Corbyn as PM is a price worth paying to deliver Brexit
    5) Australia winning the Ashes is a price worth paying to deliver Brexit
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    This site has never been right wing but establishment liberal and anti hard Brexit.

    There are other pro Boris posters on PB e.g. Philip Thompson, Gin, Viceroy of Orange etc but the PB consensus has always been anti Boris and I have long been one of the few arguing for him.

    However the view amongst Tory members and in the country as a whole is rather more pro Boris than on PB


    https://twitter.com/ConHome/status/1149210110666977286?s=20
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1148312432768684032?s=20
    Good for you, HYUFD, for being that lone voice with a different view. Everyone nodding their heads in agreement is never interesting.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yawn. Yet another anti Boris diatribe of an article based purely on Boris hatred.

    The fact is without Boris leading it Vote Leave would not have won, had Farage been leading it it would likely have been a narrow Remain win and due to the sheer contempt for democracy of diehard Remainers in both voting against the Withdrawal Agreement and against No Deal it needs Boris to again deliver it.

    Only Boris has the determination, the ruthlessness and the charisma to finally defeat the diehard Remainers and deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal by October 31st. Yes if that requires proroguing Parliament to do so as a last resort so be it and if Parliament VONC him so be it too he can go to the country on a Brexit Deal or No Deal ticket with him or likely No Brexit at all with a Corbyn minority government propped up by the diehard Remainer LDs and SNP.

    First things first, you accused me of being a Lib Dem last night. Fair enough, I joined the Liberal Party in 1980 so I can't gainsay that. Second, and in case you've forgotten in the Boris hysteria, I voted to LEAVE on 23/6/16.

    What I didn't vote for was the disorganised and ill thought-out shambles that has been the last three and a bit years. It was perfectly possible to get a deal which would have removed the UK from the political aspects yet maintained a strong economic relationship. However, you Tories decided only you knew what was best for Britain and the rest of us were politely but firmly told not to get involved and to "Trust Theresa".

    Now, we are supposed to walk over the cliff edge and leave without a Deal simply in order to satisfy some ludicrous notion of a democratic deficit and to make one individual look important. We are told the damage to democracy if we don't leave will be greater than the damage to the economy if we do leave without a Deal.

    Try telling that to the man or woman who loses their job this autumn or winter just in order to satisfy some ludicrous notion of a democratic deficit. Democratic deficits don't feed families or pay bills.

    I would like us to leave the EU - I do not want to damage the country in so doing. The failure of the Conservative Party and Government to achieve a proper and sustainable departure is something they deserve to be fully held to account.
    You want an EEA Brexit, most Leave voters want a Brexit that leaves the EU, the Single Market and Customs Union and enables us to regain sovereignty, control of our borders and do our own trade deals exactly as the Leave campaign promised.

    If the only Brexit you will accept is one that in many respects is not really leaving at all you should not have voted to Leave in the first place
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:



    I think the general viewpoint is that the more people see of Boris the more obvious his screw ups become.

    Which is why I love your idea that Boris is going to win an election. As you may have noticed during this campaign Boris always takes the easy answer - which means he has promised something or other to everyone who has asked him a question.

    And if we look back to at the referendum you can see he did the same which is why Brexit won because everyone voted for their unicorn version of Brexit.

    However, when we hit a general election there will be a day like yesterday's Andrew Neil debate where all his promises will be placed one after another and he will be called out on his contradictions and at that moment votes will go another way.

    I think you assume that in elections people vote for the best candidate. I don't think they do - they vote for the least worst that has a chance of winning - and for a lot of people Boris means the Tories are no longer the least worst..

    People vote for candidates with a vision and charisma, Thatcher, Blair etc. In 2017 that was not May but was Corbyn to some extent, at the next general election it will be Boris
    We have different viewpoints - 1979 was a vote for change, 1997 a vote for change.

    The next election is not a vote for change - it's a vote for implementation and that means it's a pick the least worst candidate option.

    Already Boris is losing centralist voters to the Lib Dems and even Labour (granted that's possibly just my vote but it is a vote). When things don't work out on October 31st he will lose the Brexit vote to Nigel and then where will the party be...
    More people voted for May than for Corbyn.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Mr. Recidivist, nice to see the youthful indoctrination programme is working well.

    Hopefully that sort of idiocy will prove as ephemeral as the Milibabes.

    I'd love to know how the indoctrination programme works. I can't even get scouts to mow my lawn.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    The site is composed of people who study and understand politics in depth.

    Therefore, they can all see that BoJo is an idiot.

    There was similar unanimity over Corbyn. In many ways he's been a worse disaster than we expected because he hasn't been an electoral calamity and Labour are consequently stuck with him. But it's hard to see Boris being anything other than the most pathetically inadequate party leader since the Marquess of Granby.
    To be fair the experts missed out on May being a turkey and that was plain to see to anyone who had seen her previous record.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    The site is composed of people who study and understand politics in depth.

    Therefore, they can all see that BoJo is an idiot.

    There was similar unanimity over Corbyn. In many ways he's been a worse disaster than we expected because he hasn't been an electoral calamity and Labour are consequently stuck with him. But it's hard to see Boris being anything other than the most pathetically inadequate party leader since the Marquess of Granby.
    In some respects, at this point in time, HY is right in that the wider electorate has an image of the affable bloke who will make life better by not being downright grim. The problem Johnson has is the longer he is in the spotlight the more that image will tarnish. His best bet is to go for an election at the earliest opportunity, swot hard for one debate restricted to only him and corbyn and limit personal appearances on tv but concentrate on large venue rally’s around the country.

    The broadcasters should refuse to play along especially if the polls are similar to now. In eighteen months time a lot of people will be far more aware of his short comings.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:



    I think the general viewpoint is that the more people see of Boris the more obvious his screw ups become.

    Which is why I love your idea that Boris is going to win an election. As you may have noticed during this campaign Boris always takes the easy answer - which means he has promised something or other to everyone who has asked him a question.

    And if we look back to at the referendum you can see he did the same which is why Brexit won because everyone voted for their unicorn version of Brexit.

    However, when we hit a general election there will be a day like yesterday's Andrew Neil debate where all his promises will be placed one after another and he will be called out on his contradictions and at that moment votes will go another way.

    I think you assume that in elections people vote for the best candidate. I don't think they do - they vote for the least worst that has a chance of winning - and for a lot of people Boris means the Tories are no longer the least worst..

    People vote for candidates with a vision and charisma, Thatcher, Blair etc. In 2017 that was not May but was Corbyn to some extent, at the next general election it will be Boris
    We have different viewpoints - 1979 was a vote for change, 1997 a vote for change.

    The next election is not a vote for change - it's a vote for implementation and that means it's a pick the least worst candidate option.

    Already Boris is losing centralist voters to the Lib Dems and even Labour (granted that's possibly just my vote but it is a vote). When things don't work out on October 31st he will lose the Brexit vote to Nigel and then where will the party be...
    Well if Boris does not deliver Brexit Farage will deliver it instead, Yougov makes the Brexit Party the largest party on 27% with the LDs second on 22% with the Tories on 20% tied third with Labour if Boris does not deliver Brexit.

    https://twitter.com/ConHome/status/1149210110666977286?s=20

    You also would not and do not vote Tory anyway
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    alex. said:

    HYUFD, which of these statements, if any, do you personally agree with?
    1) A severe economic downturn is a price worth paying to deliver Brexit
    2) The break up of the UK is a price worth paying to deliver Brexit
    3) The destruction of the Conservative Party is a price worth paying to deliver Brexit
    4) Jeremy Corbyn as PM is a price worth paying to deliver Brexit
    5) Australia winning the Ashes is a price worth paying to deliver Brexit

    He’s only a diehard Leaver if he accepts the slaughter of the firstborn as a price worth paying to deliver Brexit.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    See George Osborne and others launch a full on attack on the Met for looking into the leak

    How out of touch is he (and others) if he thinks the public do not support this investigation 100%

    They think politics and government is a game for people born to privilege.
    Yes, contempt of court and the official secrets act aren't some parlour game. The law applies equally in this country whether you're Tommy Robinson or George Osborne.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    The site is composed of people who study and understand politics in depth.

    Therefore, they can all see that BoJo is an idiot.

    There was similar unanimity over Corbyn. In many ways he's been a worse disaster than we expected because he hasn't been an electoral calamity and Labour are consequently stuck with him. But it's hard to see Boris being anything other than the most pathetically inadequate party leader since the Marquess of Granby.
    Boris is an election winner.
    That is why the Conservative membership and MPs will vote for him.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    The site is composed of people who study and understand politics in depth.

    Therefore, they can all see that BoJo is an idiot.

    There was similar unanimity over Corbyn. In many ways he's been a worse disaster than we expected because he hasn't been an electoral calamity and Labour are consequently stuck with him. But it's hard to see Boris being anything other than the most pathetically inadequate party leader since the Marquess of Granby.
    If the consensus on this site had had its way it would be Liz Kendall v Rory Stewart at the next general election
    You do make some groundless observations

    In a matter of a few weeks you have become the 'Chemical Ali' of Brexit and Boris in particular

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    alex. said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    felix said:

    On this issue surprisingly I'm of the view that Boris's lack of backing should have been completely irrelevant to Darroch's resignation. Through no fault of his own his position was untenable. He had to resign. Blaming it on Boris seems like him playing politics which undermines to a degree my sympathy for him. I'd stress I'm no fan of Boris but to blame him in this instance is to miss the point.
    You miss the point. This isn't about Darroch it's about Johnson. He failed to give unequivocal support to a senior civil servant when any second rate MP let alone a former Foreign Secretary would have known that he should have done. His behaviour was pusillanimous and unfitting of a future PM.

    (Not s bad as having a fight with his slapper in the early hours but he seems to have got away with that one)
    Wrong. Darroch as a true diplomat should have resigned immediately once the leaks were out. If Boris's views or those of ANY other politician were influential in his decision to stay or go then it would reflect badly on Darroch. The person who deserves opprobrium is the leaker. I don't care for Boris and his remarks were pathetic but either way Darroch had to go once his position was compromised by the leaker. Your hatred of Boris blinds you to the issue in this case. Quel surprise!
    Even Donald Trump's? (who, by the way, seems to have somewhat changed his tune once other people have belatedly spoken up in contradiction of his rather hasty and intemperate (but entirely characteristic) initial reaction to the leaks)
    I really meant British politicians. Trump's reaction was clearly ott but his response was understandable given the comments leaked. It is very unfortunate but the blame lies entirely with the leaker. Once they were leaked one could hardly expect the American administration to ignore them completely. Thus he had to go and that decision should have been based entirely on his own understanding of the duties of a diplomat.
  • FlannerFlanner Posts: 405
    "As for accusations of laziness had Boris wanted to coast through Oxford he could have done PPE, instead he did Classics, on the whole a tougher degree especially after the economics element of PPE is dropped."

    Classics remains an easier subject to get into Oxford on, if your brain in early teens easily absorbs languages - something an early start at Brussels' European School will have facilitated. And, since the first five terms of Lit Hum virtually re-run A Level, it's astonishingly undemanding to start with.

    Does Johnson's staying with the course for the seven terms after Mods indicate a taste for hard work? Or simply a reluctance to commit to a positive decision to do something else?

    Things may have changed. But in my day, most people doing Classics Mods switched to something else for the rest of their undergraduate career. Most of us who stayed the course did so for motives quite unconnected with excessive affection for hard work: quirkiness, real interest in the histories of Rome and Athens - or the fact that it'd produced more Prime Ministers than PPE.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:



    First things first, you accused me of being a Lib Dem last night. Fair enough, I joined the Liberal Party in 1980 so I can't gainsay that. Second, and in case you've forgotten in the Boris hysteria, I voted to LEAVE on 23/6/16.

    What I didn't vote for was the disorganised and ill thought-out shambles that has been the last three and a bit years. It was perfectly possible to get a deal which would have removed the UK from the political aspects yet maintained a strong economic relationship. However, you Tories decided only you knew what was best for Britain and the rest of us were politely but firmly told not to get involved and to "Trust Theresa".

    Now, we are supposed to walk over the cliff edge and leave without a Deal simply in order to satisfy some ludicrous notion of a democratic deficit and to make one individual look important. We are told the damage to democracy if we don't leave will be greater than the damage to the economy if we do leave without a Deal.

    Try telling that to the man or woman who loses their job this autumn or winter just in order to satisfy some ludicrous notion of a democratic deficit. Democratic deficits don't feed families or pay bills.

    I would like us to leave the EU - I do not want to damage the country in so doing. The failure of the Conservative Party and Government to achieve a proper and sustainable departure is something they deserve to be fully held to account.

    You want an EEA Brexit, most Leave voters want a Brexit that leaves the EU, the Single Market and Customs Union and enables us to regain sovereignty, control of our borders and do our own trade deals exactly as the Leave campaign promised.

    If the only Brexit you will accept is one that in many respects is not really leaving at all you should not have voted to Leave in the first place
    Who are you, a REMAIN vote, to tell Stodge, a LEAVE voter what "most Leave voters" wanted when voting for Brexit? And if, as you appear to do, you acknowledge that there were Leave voters who didn't really want to leave, where does your absolute assertion that "leave deal or no deal" fulfils the democratic mandate of over 50% of the population?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    This site has never been right wing but establishment liberal and anti hard Brexit.

    There are other pro Boris posters on PB e.g. Philip Thompson, Gin, Viceroy of Orange etc but the PB consensus has always been anti Boris and I have long been one of the few arguing for him.

    However the view amongst Tory members and in the country as a whole is rather more pro Boris than on PB


    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1148312432768684032?s=20
    So you best response is a poll from before Boris throw the Foreign Office under a bus and he was caught out by Andrew Neil..

    I suppose we should be thankful the poll is a working week old rather than a month old but things may have changed since then. Heck the lack of support for Boris on this site seems to have dipped to 1 single poster...
    There has been no change in support for Boris over the past week, not here or amongst the public.

    Most PBers have always been anti Boris and still are, nobody who was pro Boris is now anti Boris
  • GrimUpNorthGrimUpNorth Posts: 3
    edited July 2019
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    This site has never been right wing but establishment liberal and anti hard Brexit.

    There are other pro Boris posters on PB e.g. Philip Thompson, Gin, Viceroy of Orange etc but the PB consensus has always been anti Boris and I have long been one of the few arguing for him.

    However the view amongst Tory members and in the country as a whole is rather more pro Boris than on PB


    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1148312432768684032?s=20
    So you best response is a poll from before Boris throw the Foreign Office under a bus and he was caught out by Andrew Neil..

    I suppose we should be thankful the poll is a working week old rather than a month old but things may have changed since then. Heck the lack of support for Boris on this site seems to have dipped to 1 single poster...
    Make that 2. He may be flawed , and I accept it may possibly end in tears , but at the moment he is the best chance the tories have of salvaging brexit and finishing Farage and Corbyn . If brexit isnt delivered by the latest deadline the tories are finished .
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    The site is composed of people who study and understand politics in depth.

    Therefore, they can all see that BoJo is an idiot.

    There was similar unanimity over Corbyn. In many ways he's been a worse disaster than we expected because he hasn't been an electoral calamity and Labour are consequently stuck with him. But it's hard to see Boris being anything other than the most pathetically inadequate party leader since the Marquess of Granby.
    If the consensus on this site had had its way it would be Liz Kendall v Rory Stewart at the next general election
    That beauty and the beast head to head would be a lot more palatable, and a lot less divisive.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Recidivist, of course not. Lawns are owned by bourgeois oppressors of the Workers. Of course, if you had a state-mandated rectangular area of green space dedicated to rest and relaxation of the working class, that would be entirely different.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Brexit Party Britain.

    "Many of the Brexit Party’s most favourable seats are currently in Labour hands. Of the 20 most favourable, no fewer than 16 were won by Labour in 2017; of the 50 most favourable, 36 are held by Labour."

    https://unherd.com/2019/07/the-battle-for-brexit-britain/?=sideshare
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    The site is composed of people who study and understand politics in depth.

    Therefore, they can all see that BoJo is an idiot.

    There was similar unanimity over Corbyn. In many ways he's been a worse disaster than we expected because he hasn't been an electoral calamity and Labour are consequently stuck with him. But it's hard to see Boris being anything other than the most pathetically inadequate party leader since the Marquess of Granby.
    Boris is an election winner.
    That is why the Conservative membership and MPs will vote for him.

    Exactly, if diehard Remainers want to vote LD, vote LD, don't try and change the Tory Party into the LDs
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    This site has never been right wing but establishment liberal and anti hard Brexit.

    There are other pro Boris posters on PB e.g. Philip Thompson, Gin, Viceroy of Orange etc but the PB consensus has always been anti Boris and I have long been one of the few arguing for him.

    However the view amongst Tory members and in the country as a whole is rather more pro Boris than on PB


    https://twitter.com/ConHome/status/1149210110666977286?s=20
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1148312432768684032?s=20
    Good for you, HYUFD, for being that lone voice with a different view. Everyone nodding their heads in agreement is never interesting.
    Agreed - although the stridency and tone of HYUFD's comments have not helped his arguments one jot - or the Tory party many of us have long been loyal to.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    alex. said:

    HYUFD, which of these statements, if any, do you personally agree with?
    1) A severe economic downturn is a price worth paying to deliver Brexit
    2) The break up of the UK is a price worth paying to deliver Brexit
    3) The destruction of the Conservative Party is a price worth paying to deliver Brexit
    4) Jeremy Corbyn as PM is a price worth paying to deliver Brexit
    5) Australia winning the Ashes is a price worth paying to deliver Brexit

    He’s only a diehard Leaver if he accepts the slaughter of the firstborn as a price worth paying to deliver Brexit.
    That should maybe slot in between 4) and 5), no?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Foxy said:



    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    The site is composed of people who study and understand politics in depth.

    Therefore, they can all see that BoJo is an idiot.

    There was similar unanimity over Corbyn. In many ways he's been a worse disaster than we expected because he hasn't been an electoral calamity and Labour are consequently stuck with him. But it's hard to see Boris being anything other than the most pathetically inadequate party leader since the Marquess of Granby.
    If the consensus on this site had had its way it would be Liz Kendall v Rory Stewart at the next general election
    That beauty and the beast head to head would be a lot more palatable, and a lot less divisive.
    Is it me or has Liz Kendall been keeping a very low profile of late?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited July 2019
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    The site is composed of people who study and understand politics in depth.

    Therefore, they can all see that BoJo is an idiot.

    There was similar unanimity over Corbyn. In many ways he's been a worse disaster than we expected because he hasn't been an electoral calamity and Labour are consequently stuck with him. But it's hard to see Boris being anything other than the most pathetically inadequate party leader since the Marquess of Granby.
    Last night's interview with Andrew Neil exposed Boris as wholly unsuited to be PM and must have seen him lose a lot of support. My good lady was utterly appalled by him

    Far from winning a majority he will be lucky to survive a vonc in the Autumn.

    His only hope is that he has a cabinet that provides him cover and in some way he manages to pass a fudged WDA
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    This site has never been right wing but establishment liberal and anti hard Brexit.

    There are other pro Boris posters on PB e.g. Philip Thompson, Gin, Viceroy of Orange etc but the PB consensus has always been anti Boris and I have long been one of the few arguing for him.

    However the view amongst Tory members and in the country as a whole is rather more pro Boris than on PB


    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1148312432768684032?s=20
    So you best response is a poll from before Boris throw the Foreign Office under a bus and he was caught out by Andrew Neil..

    I suppose we should be thankful the poll is a working week old rather than a month old but things may have changed since then. Heck the lack of support for Boris on this site seems to have dipped to 1 single poster...
    Make that 2. He may be flawed , and I accept it may possibly end in tears , but at the moment he is the best chance the tories have of salvaging brexit and finishing Farage and Corbyn . If brexit is delivered by the latest deadline the tories are finished .
    Welcome Mr Grim.

    Suitable avatar.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,340
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    The site is composed of people who study and understand politics in depth.

    Therefore, they can all see that BoJo is an idiot.

    There was similar unanimity over Corbyn. In many ways he's been a worse disaster than we expected because he hasn't been an electoral calamity and Labour are consequently stuck with him. But it's hard to see Boris being anything other than the most pathetically inadequate party leader since the Marquess of Granby.
    If the consensus on this site had had its way it would be Liz Kendall v Rory Stewart at the next general election
    Which would be a far, far better debate for the country to be having, on both sides.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545

    FF43 said:

    He has a point, although I wouldn't say it's a strategic one. There's a difference between a clear understanding of the reality us and celebrating weakness on your own side

    On the other hand, the refusal ever to deal with reality is the strategic mistake made by the cause he espouses. In the case of Ireland, to acknowledge Ireland has legitimate interests, which they decide on and which they have some leverage over. As Ireland holds a significant Brexit key, it would be sensible to try to engage Ireland as an ally rather than treat it and its interests with aggressive condescension.
    The other thing is the Irish completely outplayed the UK in Brussels (not that that would have been difficult...), but I doubt history will be kind to Varadkar.
    History's kindness to Varadkar is irrelevant to us. All the UK needs to know is that Varadkar is its most important foreign stakeholder right now. Much more important than Trump actually. The UK needs to work with Varadkar to get an agreement that is acceptable to both sides for Brexit to have the slightest success.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. North, welcome to PB.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    alex. said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:



    First things first, you accused me of being a Lib Dem last night. Fair enough, I joined the Liberal Party in 1980 so I can't gainsay that. Second, and in case you've forgotten in the Boris hysteria, I voted to LEAVE on 23/6/16.

    What I didn't vote for was the disorganised and ill thought-out shambles that has been the last three and a bit years. It was perfectly possible to get a deal which would have removed the UK from the political aspects yet maintained a strong economic relationship. However, you Tories decided only you knew what was best for Britain and the rest of us were politely but firmly told not to get involved and to "Trust Theresa".

    Now, we are supposed to walk over the cliff edge and leave without a Deal simply in order to satisfy some ludicrous notion of a democratic deficit and to make one individual look important. We are told the damage to democracy if we don't leave will be greater than the damage to the economy if we do leave without a Deal.

    Try telling that to the man or woman who loses their job this autumn or winter just in order to satisfy some ludicrous notion of a democratic deficit. Democratic deficits don't feed families or pay bills.

    I would like us to leave the EU - I do not want to damage the country in so doing. The failure of the Conservative Party and Government to achieve a proper and sustainable departure is something they deserve to be fully held to account.

    You want an EEA Brexit, most Leave voters want a Brexit that leaves the EU, the Single Market and Customs Union and enables us to regain sovereignty, control of our borders and do our own trade deals exactly as the Leave campaign promised.

    If the only Brexit you will accept is one that in many respects is not really leaving at all you should not have voted to Leave in the first place
    Who are you, a REMAIN vote, to tell Stodge, a LEAVE voter what "most Leave voters" wanted when voting for Brexit? And if, as you appear to do, you acknowledge that there were Leave voters who didn't really want to leave, where does your absolute assertion that "leave deal or no deal" fulfils the democratic mandate of over 50% of the population?
    I am perfectly entitled to and will continue to do so.

    The Leave campaign promised to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration and do our own trade deals, that means a Canada style FTA at most not EEA BINO.

    If you did not realise what most of your fellow Leave voters were voting for, tough
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    Boris can't be accused of exciting exagerrated expectations, can he? He only has to avoid accidentally blowing up the Commons to be seen as better than expected.

    Personally I think he'll get the WA, heavily disguised by rhetoric, through, and that will stand him in good steady with the public for a bit. But I also think hubris will strike and he'll then call an election, which will turn out just like 2017.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    This site has never been right wing but establishment liberal and anti hard Brexit.

    There are other pro Boris posters on PB e.g. Philip Thompson, Gin, Viceroy of Orange etc but the PB consensus has always been anti Boris and I have long been one of the few arguing for him.

    However the view amongst Tory members and in the country as a whole is rather more pro Boris than on PB


    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1148312432768684032?s=20
    So you best response is a poll from before Boris throw the Foreign Office under a bus and he was caught out by Andrew Neil..

    I suppose we should be thankful the poll is a working week old rather than a month old but things may have changed since then. Heck the lack of support for Boris on this site seems to have dipped to 1 single poster...
    There has been no change in support for Boris over the past week, not here or amongst the public.

    Most PBers have always been anti Boris and still are, nobody who was pro Boris is now anti Boris
    I don't support Boris. I think he will be another failure, broken like the last 3 or 4 by Europe.

    But I did think he would win the leadership and have done for months and months. I have bet accordingly.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Mango said:

    stodge said:


    I would never vote for Corbyn under any circumstances

    If 35% vote Lib Dem it would be the end of Boris, Corbyn, Farage and Brexit.

    It would be the return of normality and sanity.

    I like the sentiment, but it perhaps should be stressed that there is much for such a government to do. Continuity it is not.
    Good point. Even with Revoke and the subsequent crushing of the Conservative and Unionist Party, the prospect of some kind of return to Continuity Yookay is zero.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited July 2019
    HYUFD said:

    alex. said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:



    First things first, you accused me of being a Lib Dem last night. Fair enough, I joined the Liberal Party in 1980 so I can't gainsay that. Second, and in case you've forgotten in the Boris hysteria, I voted to LEAVE on 23/6/16.

    What I didn't vote for was the disorganised and ill thought-out shambles that has been the last three and a bit years. It was perfectly possible to get a deal which would have removed the UK from the political aspects yet maintained a strong economic relationship. However, you Tories decided only you knew what was best for Britain and the rest of us were politely but firmly told not to get involved and to "Trust Theresa".

    Now, we are supposed to walk over the cliff edge and leave without a Deal simply in order to satisfy some ludicrous notion of a democratic deficit and to make one individual look important. We are told the damage to democracy if we don't leave will be greater than the damage to the economy if we do leave without a Deal.

    Try telling that to the man or woman who loses their job this autumn or winter just in order to satisfy some ludicrous notion of a democratic deficit. Democratic deficits don't feed families or pay bills.

    I would like us to leave the EU - I do not want to damage the country in so doing. The failure of the Conservative Party and Government to achieve a proper and sustainable departure is something they deserve to be fully held to account.

    You want an EEA Brexit, most Leave voters want a Brexit that leaves the EU, the Single Market and Customs Union and enables us to regain sovereignty, control of our borders and do our own trade deals exactly as the Leave campaign promised.

    If the only Brexit you will accept is one that in many respects is not really leaving at all you should not have voted to Leave in the first place
    Who are you, a REMAIN vote, to tell Stodge, a LEAVE voter what "most Leave voters" wanted when voting for Brexit? And if, as you appear to do, you acknowledge that there were Leave voters who didn't really want to leave, where does your absolute assertion that "leave deal or no deal" fulfils the democratic mandate of over 50% of the population?
    I am perfectly entitled to and will continue to do so.

    The Leave campaign promised to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration and do our own trade deals, that means a Canada style FTA at most not EEA BINO.

    If you did not realise what most of your fellow Leave voters were voting for, tough
    I voted Remain. Just noting the irony of a Remainer telling a Leaver that he wasn't really a leaver, whilst asserting the absolute imperative of delivering on a democratic instruction of a referendum majority based in part of the votes of Leavers who were really remainers.



  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043

    Boris can't be accused of exciting exagerrated expectations, can he? He only has to avoid accidentally blowing up the Commons to be seen as better than expected.

    Personally I think he'll get the WA, heavily disguised by rhetoric, through, and that will stand him in good steady with the public for a bit. But I also think hubris will strike and he'll then call an election, which will turn out just like 2017.

    How do you reckon he will get the WA through? Decent wodge of Labour MPs swing behind it?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    Boris can't be accused of exciting exagerrated expectations, can he? He only has to avoid accidentally blowing up the Commons to be seen as better than expected.

    Personally I think he'll get the WA, heavily disguised by rhetoric, through, and that will stand him in good steady with the public for a bit. But I also think hubris will strike and he'll then call an election, which will turn out just like 2017.

    May still stayed in power after 2017 if Boris passed the Withdrawal Agreement and got a 2017 style result that would be quite an achievement.

    However I still think Boris would win a majority, he is a better campaigner than May and would not make gaffes like the dementia 6
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    felix said:

    Roger said:

    felix said:

    On this issue surprisingly I'm of the view that Boris's lack of backing should have been completely irrelevant to Darroch's resignation. Through no fault of his own his position was untenable. He had to resign. Blaming it on Boris seems like him playing politics which undermines to a degree my sympathy for him. I'd stress I'm no fan of Boris but to blame him in this instance is to miss the point.
    You miss the point. This isn't about Darroch it's about Johnson. He failed to give unequivocal support to a senior civil servant when any second rate MP let alone a former Foreign Secretary would have known that he should have done. His behaviour was pusillanimous and unfitting of a future PM.

    (Not s bad as having a fight with his slapper in the early hours but he seems to have got away with that one)
    Wrong. Darroch as a true diplomat should have resigned immediately once the leaks were out. If Boris's views or those of ANY other politician were influential in his decision to stay or go then it would reflect badly on Darroch. The person who deserves opprobrium is the leaker. I don't care for Boris and his remarks were pathetic but either way Darroch had to go once his position was compromised by the leaker. Your hatred of Boris blinds you to the issue in this case. Quel surprise!
    Listen to Malcolm Rifkin on the subject. A politician from an age when they had standards. He says the blame goes three ways. 1. The Leaker 2. The President of the United States 3. Boris Johnson. Having been a Foreign Secretary and a parliamentarian for decades I think he's worth listening to. On Radio 5 now. As an aside apparently Darroch -who no one on here had even heard of-was one of our most outstanding diplomats.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,013
    HYUFD said:

    You want an EEA Brexit, most Leave voters want a Brexit that leaves the EU, the Single Market and Customs Union and enables us to regain sovereignty, control of our borders and do our own trade deals exactly as the Leave campaign promised.

    If the only Brexit you will accept is one that in many respects is not really leaving at all you should not have voted to Leave in the first place

    Without going around the same houses again, for me when the Referendum Ballot Paper asked if we should leave the "European Union" I interpreted that as leaving the European Union. As the European Economic Area is not the European Union, and the European Customs Union is not the European Union, it seems off that "not leaving at all" has become the way that you define what we were asked.

    As seems obvious, the basic problem is that so may people haven't a clue what "European Union" actually is...
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yawn. Yet another anti Boris diatribe of an article based purely on Boris hatred

    Only Boris has the determination, the ruthlessness and the charisma to finally defeat the diehard Remainers and deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal by October 31st. Yes if that requires proroguing Parliament to do so as a last resort so be it and if Parliament VONC him so be it too he can go to the country on a Brexit Deal or No Deal ticket with him or likely No Brexit at all with a Corbyn minority government propped up by the diehard Remainer LDs and SNP.

    First things first, you accused me of being a Lib Dem last night. Fair enough, I joined the Liberal Party in 1980 so I can't gainsay that. Second, and in case you've forgotten in the Boris hysteria, I voted to LEAVE on 23/6/16.

    What I didn't vote for was the disorganised and ill thought-out shambles that has been the last three and a bit years. It was perfectly possible to get a deal which would have removed the UK from the political aspects yet maintained a strong economic relationship. However, you Tories decided only you knew what was best for Britain and the rest of us were politely but firmly told not to get involved and to "Trust Theresa".

    Now, we are supposed to walk over the cliff edge and leave without a Deal simply in order to satisfy some ludicrous notion of a democratic deficit and to make one individual look important. We are told the damage to democracy if we don't leave will be greater than the damage to the economy if we do leave without a Deal.

    Try telling that to the man or woman who loses their job this autumn or winter just in order to satisfy some ludicrous notion of a democratic deficit. Democratic deficits don't feed families or pay bills.

    I would like us to leave the EU - I do not want to damage the country in so doing. The failure of the Conservative Party and Government to achieve a proper and sustainable departure is something they deserve to be fully held to account.
    You want an EEA Brexit, most Leave voters want a Brexit that leaves the EU, the Single Market and Customs Union and enables us to regain sovereignty, control of our borders and do our own trade deals exactly as the Leave campaign promised.

    If the only Brexit you will accept is one that in many respects is not really leaving at all you should not have voted to Leave in the first place
    My MP Marcus Fysh told me in writing, when I raised a number of concerns with him, a few months before the referendum that, in the unlikely event that leave won we would never leave EEA/EFTA as it was not in our interests. So he’s another one who was economical with the truth.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    This site has never been right wing but establishment liberal and anti hard Brexit.

    There are other pro Boris posters on PB e.g. Philip Thompson, Gin, Viceroy of Orange etc but the PB consensus has always been anti Boris and I have long been one of the few arguing for him.

    However the view amongst Tory members and in the country as a whole is rather more pro Boris than on PB


    https://twitter.com/ConHome/status/1149210110666977286?s=20
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1148312432768684032?s=20
    Good for you, HYUFD, for being that lone voice with a different view. Everyone nodding their heads in agreement is never interesting.
    Thank you FF43
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    This site has never been right wing but establishment liberal and anti hard Brexit.

    There are other pro Boris posters on PB e.g. Philip Thompson, Gin, Viceroy of Orange etc but the PB consensus has always been anti Boris and I have long been one of the few arguing for him.

    However the view amongst Tory members and in the country as a whole is rather more pro Boris than on PB


    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1148312432768684032?s=20
    So you best response is a poll from before Boris throw the Foreign Office under a bus and he was caught out by Andrew Neil..

    I suppose we should be thankful the poll is a working week old rather than a month old but things may have changed since then. Heck the lack of support for Boris on this site seems to have dipped to 1 single poster...
    Make that 2. He may be flawed , and I accept it may possibly end in tears , but at the moment he is the best chance the tories have of salvaging brexit and finishing Farage and Corbyn . If brexit isnt delivered by the latest deadline the tories are finished .
    Brexit won't be delivered by October 31st - unless Boris can rephrase May's deal to the extent the ERG vote for it...
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,013
    Then again I don't know why I bother. Some people still insist that WTO GATT 24 will mean no changes or disruption. That the head of the WTO has laughed at this idea and pointed out that it is bollocks really doesn't phase the "just believe" crazies.

    We need to build a Douglas Adams Golgafrincham Ark ship. And stick leavers and Corbyn supporters into it so that those of us with a brain can get on with our lives
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    felix said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    This site has never been right wing but establishment liberal and anti hard Brexit.

    There are other pro Boris posters on PB e.g. Philip Thompson, Gin, Viceroy of Orange etc but the PB consensus has always been anti Boris and I have long been one of the few arguing for him.

    However the view amongst Tory members and in the country as a whole is rather more pro Boris than on PB


    https://twitter.com/ConHome/status/1149210110666977286?s=20
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1148312432768684032?s=20
    Good for you, HYUFD, for being that lone voice with a different view. Everyone nodding their heads in agreement is never interesting.
    Agreed - although the stridency and tone of HYUFD's comments have not helped his arguments one jot - or the Tory party many of us have long been loyal to.
    When you are fighting a Rorke's Drift battle being attacked on all sides as the few Boris supporters on here are sometimes you have to be a bit more strident in tone to get the message across
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    HYUFD said:

    If Boris is forced to prorogue Parliament to go to No Deal to deliver Brexit then diehard Remainer MPs have nobody to blame but themselves

    Deeply, deeply troubling.

    This kind of reasoning is common in bullying: the bully blames the victim. You are only being bullied because you are inadequate. I’m sure psychologists have a term for it.
    "Victim Blaming"

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_blaming

    "She was asking for it, dressed like that"

    "The Jews should have fought back"

    It has a long and ignoble heritage
    I would like to think that HY is big enough to realise that he has aligned himself with a very bad lot. There is still time for honour.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    eek said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    This site has never been right wing but establishment liberal and anti hard Brexit.

    There are other pro Boris posters on PB e.g. Philip Thompson, Gin, Viceroy of Orange etc but the PB consensus has always been anti Boris and I have long been one of the few arguing for him.

    However the view amongst Tory members and in the country as a whole is rather more pro Boris than on PB


    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1148312432768684032?s=20
    So you best response is a poll from before Boris throw the Foreign Office under a bus and he was caught out by Andrew Neil..

    I suppose we should be thankful the poll is a working week old rather than a month old but things may have changed since then. Heck the lack of support for Boris on this site seems to have dipped to 1 single poster...
    Make that 2. He may be flawed , and I accept it may possibly end in tears , but at the moment he is the best chance the tories have of salvaging brexit and finishing Farage and Corbyn . If brexit isnt delivered by the latest deadline the tories are finished .
    Brexit won't be delivered by October 31st - unless Boris can rephrase May's deal to the extent the ERG vote for it...
    Or Boris wins a majority to deliver it or he prorogues Parliament to enforce No Deal
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    This site has never been right wing but establishment liberal and anti hard Brexit.

    There are other pro Boris posters on PB e.g. Philip Thompson, Gin, Viceroy of Orange etc but the PB consensus has always been anti Boris and I have long been one of the few arguing for him.

    However the view amongst Tory members and in the country as a whole is rather more pro Boris than on PB


    https://twitter.com/ConHome/status/1149210110666977286?s=20
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1148312432768684032?s=20
    Just reflect for a moment on the posters who support him. Viceroy of Orange. Gin (who I like very much) and Philip Thompson. The reason we're in this mess is because Blackpool Hartlepool and Stoke were asked a question they didn't have the competence to answer
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004

    Boris can't be accused of exciting exagerrated expectations, can he? He only has to avoid accidentally blowing up the Commons to be seen as better than expected.

    Personally I think he'll get the WA, heavily disguised by rhetoric, through, and that will stand him in good steady with the public for a bit. But I also think hubris will strike and he'll then call an election, which will turn out just like 2017.

    How do you reckon he will get the WA through? Decent wodge of Labour MPs swing behind it?
    I made the comment yesterday that 26 labour mps are already on record as supporting it, plus Stephen Kinnock made demands to Corbyn to do so this week, plus the fact that mps in both main parties must be sick to death of the issue and see in passing the WDA they can move on to a domestic agenda

    I really do think this is Boris only chance of success. Anything else will fail
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124


    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    The site is composed of people who study and understand politics in depth.

    Therefore, they can all see that BoJo is an idiot.

    There was similar unanimity over Corbyn. In many ways he's been a worse disaster than we expected because he hasn't been an electoral calamity and Labour are consequently stuck with him. But it's hard to see Boris being anything other than the most pathetically inadequate party leader since the Marquess of Granby.
    Last night's interview with Andrew Neil exposed Boris as wholly unsuited to be PM and must have seen him lose a lot of support. My good lady was utterly appalled by him

    Far from winning a majority he will be lucky to survive a vonc in the Autumn.

    His only hope is that he has a cabinet that provides him cover and in some way he manages to pass a fudged WDA
    Jo Public are not exactly avid followers of any news items least of all political interviews.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    geoffw said:

    DavidL said:

    Given that we all accept that delegation is the name of the game who is going to be in this cabinet?

    There has to be a major clear out of the no marks and drones that May favoured. Goodbye and good riddance to the likes of Hammond, Liddington, Grayling (please!!) and many others.

    Boris should try hard to bring Stewart in but I fear that is impossible. He must keep Gove. Relations with Hunt have been sharper than expected in this campaign but he will be important. The Saj probably remains in post. I think Rudd has something to offer yet but there will be an expectation of promotions for committed leavers. Sifting through the asylum known as the ERG for the vaguely house trained and marginally competent is not a job for the faint of heart.

    Chief Secretary for Mogg perhaps.
    Jacob Rees-Mogg cannot even be doorman at the Treasury while running his own hedge fund.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yawn. Yet another anti Boris diatribe of an article based purely on Boris hatred

    Only Boris has the determination, the ruthlessness and the charisma to finally defeat the diehard Remainers and deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal by d Remainer LDs and SNP.

    First things first, you accused me of being a Lib Dem last night. Fair enough, I joined the Liberal Party in 1980 so I can't gainsay that. Second, and in case you've forgotten in the Boris hysteria, I voted to LEAVE on 23/6/16.

    What I didn't vote for was the disorganised and ill thought-out shambles that has been the last three and a bit years. It was perfectly possible to get a deal which would have removed the UK from the political aspects yet maintained a strong economic relationship. However, you Tories decided only you knew what was best for Britain and the rest of us were politely but firmly told not to get involved and to "Trust Theresa".

    Now, we are supposed to walk over the cliff edge and leave without a Deal simply in order to satisfy some ludicrous notion of a democratic deficit and to make one individual look important. We are told the damage to democracy if we don't leave will be greater than the damage to the economy if we do leave without a Deal.

    Try telling that to the man or woman who loses their job this autumn or winter just in order to satisfy some ludicrous notion of a democratic deficit. Democratic deficits don't feed families or pay bills.

    I would like us to leave the EU - I do not want to damage the country in so doing. The failure of the Conservative Party and Government to achieve a proper and sustainable departure is something they deserve to be fully held to account.
    You want an EEA Brexit, most Leave voters want a Brexit that leaves the EU, the Single Market and Customs Union and enables us to regain sovereignty, control of our borders and do our own trade deals exactly as the Leave campaign promised.

    If the only Brexit you will accept is one that in many respects is not really leaving at all you should not have voted to Leave in the first place
    My MP Marcus Fysh told me in writing, when I raised a number of concerns with him, a few months before the referendum that, in the unlikely event that leave won we would never leave EEA/EFTA as it was not in our interests. So he’s another one who was economical with the truth.
    Fysh even backed WTO terms Brexit here

    https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2016/06/marcus-fysh-keep-calm-think-clearly-and-ignore-the-alarmism-fearmongering-and-scare-tactics-of-the-treasury.html
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited July 2019
    Boris cannot get the Withdrawal Agreement through because he has promised the ERG that they will get no deal on October 31st, so they won't vote for it, and the Opposition parties are confident that they can stop no deal by other means, or are comfortable with blaming the Tories for no deal.

    One side, or the other, will prove to be mistaken, as in March, and there will be hell to pay when we find out which side that is.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    Foxy said:



    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    The site is composed of people who study and understand politics in depth.

    Therefore, they can all see that BoJo is an idiot.

    There was similar unanimity over Corbyn. In many ways he's been a worse disaster than we expected because he hasn't been an electoral calamity and Labour are consequently stuck with him. But it's hard to see Boris being anything other than the most pathetically inadequate party leader since the Marquess of Granby.
    If the consensus on this site had had its way it would be Liz Kendall v Rory Stewart at the next general election
    That beauty and the beast head to head would be a lot more palatable, and a lot less divisive.
    Is it me or has Liz Kendall been keeping a very low profile of late?
    She has been rehearsing hard for the role of Sandy in a new production of Grease:

    https://twitter.com/bbcthisweek/status/1149623531610656768?s=19
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    HYUFD said:

    felix said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    This site has never been right wing but establishment liberal and anti hard Brexit.

    There are other pro Boris posters on PB e.g. Philip Thompson, Gin, Viceroy of Orange etc but the PB consensus has always been anti Boris and I have long been one of the few arguing for him.

    However the view amongst Tory members and in the country as a whole is rather more pro Boris than on PB


    https://twitter.com/ConHome/status/1149210110666977286?s=20
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1148312432768684032?s=20
    Good for you, HYUFD, for being that lone voice with a different view. Everyone nodding their heads in agreement is never interesting.
    Agreed - although the stridency and tone of HYUFD's comments have not helped his arguments one jot - or the Tory party many of us have long been loyal to.
    When you are fighting a Rorke's Drift battle being attacked on all sides as the few Boris supporters on here are sometimes you have to be a bit more strident in tone to get the message across
    I don’t mind particularly the strident tone.
    It’s more the unthinking idolatry.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    Did we ever actually find out what is in 5c?
    Its not that long:

    (c) any interim agreement referred to in subparagraphs (a) and (b) shall include a plan and schedule for the formation of such a customs union or of such a free-trade area within a reasonable length of time.

    https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/region_e/region_art24_e.htm

    "plan" and "schedule"
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    This site has never been right wing but establishment liberal and anti hard Brexit.

    There are other pro Boris posters on PB e.g. Philip Thompson, Gin, Viceroy of Orange etc but the PB consensus has always been anti Boris and I have long been one of the few arguing for him.

    However the view amongst Tory members and in the country as a whole is rather more pro Boris than on PB


    https://twitter.com/ConHome/status/1149210110666977286?s=20
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1148312432768684032?s=20
    Just reflect for a moment on the posters who support him. Viceroy of Orange. Gin (who I like very much) and Philip Thompson. The reason we're in this mess is because Blackpool Hartlepool and Stoke were asked a question they didn't have the competence to answer
    Most Tory seats voted Leave too
  • HYUFD said:

    Boris can't be accused of exciting exagerrated expectations, can he? He only has to avoid accidentally blowing up the Commons to be seen as better than expected.

    Personally I think he'll get the WA, heavily disguised by rhetoric, through, and that will stand him in good steady with the public for a bit. But I also think hubris will strike and he'll then call an election, which will turn out just like 2017.

    May still stayed in power after 2017 if Boris passed the Withdrawal Agreement and got a 2017 style result that would be quite an achievement.

    However I still think Boris would win a majority, he is a better campaigner than May and would not make gaffes like the dementia 6
    Boris will be a refreshing change to the Maybot . He does at least have a personality and is more likely to win the next election than any other contender. At least we will have a PM who actually wants to leave the EU , unlike May
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Roger said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    felix said:

    On this issue surprisingly I'm of the view that Boris's lack of backing should have been completely irrelevant to Darroch's resignation. Through no fault of his own his position was untenable. He had to resign. Blaming it on Boris seems like him playing politics which undermines to a degree my sympathy for him. I'd stress I'm no fan of Boris but to blame him in this instance is to miss the point.
    You miss the point. This isn't about Darroch it's about Johnson. He failed to give unequivocal support to a senior civil servant when any second rate MP let alone a former Foreign Secretary would have known that he should have done. His behaviour was pusillanimous and unfitting of a future PM.

    (Not s bad as having a fight with his slapper in the early hours but he seems to have got away with that one)
    Wrong. Darroch as a true diplomat should have resigned immediately once the leaks were out. If Boris's views or those of ANY other politician were influential in his decision to stay or go then it would reflect badly on Darroch. The person who deserves opprobrium is the leaker. I don't care for Boris and his remarks were pathetic but either way Darroch had to go once his position was compromised by the leaker. Your hatred of Boris blinds you to the issue in this case. Quel surprise!
    Listen to Malcolm Rifkin on the subject. A politician from an age when they had standards. He says the blame goes three ways. 1. The Leaker 2. The President of the United States 3. Boris Johnson. Having been a Foreign Secretary and a parliamentarian for decades I think he's worth listening to. On Radio 5 now. As an aside apparently Darroch -who no one on here had even heard of-was one of our most outstanding diplomats.
    I fully agree with 1 & 2. 3. is and should be irrelevant to Darroch's decision. Diplomats are a bit like children fine to be seen in publc but never to be heard when they are being frank. His luck ran out.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Boris can't be accused of exciting exagerrated expectations, can he? He only has to avoid accidentally blowing up the Commons to be seen as better than expected.

    Personally I think he'll get the WA, heavily disguised by rhetoric, through, and that will stand him in good steady with the public for a bit. But I also think hubris will strike and he'll then call an election, which will turn out just like 2017.

    How do you reckon he will get the WA through? Decent wodge of Labour MPs swing behind it?
    I made the comment yesterday that 26 labour mps are already on record as supporting it, plus Stephen Kinnock made demands to Corbyn to do so this week, plus the fact that mps in both main parties must be sick to death of the issue and see in passing the WDA they can move on to a domestic agenda

    I really do think this is Boris only chance of success. Anything else will fail
    the WDA only moves things to the second stage - if anyone thinks us leaving resolves Brexit once and for all they are in for a mighty surprise...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    This site has never been right wing but establishment liberal and anti hard Brexit.

    There are other pro Boris posters on PB e.g. Philip Thompson, Gin, Viceroy of Orange etc but the PB consensus has always been anti Boris and I have long been one of the few arguing for him.

    However the view amongst Tory members and in the country as a whole is rather more pro Boris than on PB


    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1148312432768684032?s=20
    So you best response is a poll from before Boris throw the Foreign Office under a bus and he was caught out by Andrew Neil..

    I suppose we should be thankful the poll is a working week old rather than a month old but things may have changed since then. Heck the lack of support for Boris on this site seems to have dipped to 1 single poster...
    There has been no change in support for Boris over the past week, not here or amongst the public.
    I expect the Sunday's will have some polls...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Roger, patronising people who disagree with you doesn't win a referendum. As was discovered recently.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited July 2019

    Boris cannot get the Withdrawal Agreement through because he has promised the ERG that they will get no deal on October 31st, so they won't vote for it, and the Opposition parties are are confident that they can stop no deal by other means, or are comfortable with blaming the Tories for no deal.

    One side, or the other, will prove to be mistaken, as in March, and there will be hell to pay when we find out which side that is.

    Boris can only get the Withdrawal Agreement through with a Tory majority by early autumn, without that he has to go for No Deal on October 31st otherwise the Brexit Party will destroy the Tories and Farage could well end up PM instead given he likely picks up some Labour Leave seats too
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    eek said:

    Boris can't be accused of exciting exagerrated expectations, can he? He only has to avoid accidentally blowing up the Commons to be seen as better than expected.

    Personally I think he'll get the WA, heavily disguised by rhetoric, through, and that will stand him in good steady with the public for a bit. But I also think hubris will strike and he'll then call an election, which will turn out just like 2017.

    How do you reckon he will get the WA through? Decent wodge of Labour MPs swing behind it?
    I made the comment yesterday that 26 labour mps are already on record as supporting it, plus Stephen Kinnock made demands to Corbyn to do so this week, plus the fact that mps in both main parties must be sick to death of the issue and see in passing the WDA they can move on to a domestic agenda

    I really do think this is Boris only chance of success. Anything else will fail
    the WDA only moves things to the second stage - if anyone thinks us leaving resolves Brexit once and for all they are in for a mighty surprise...
    Yes I do agree with you but the national sigh of relief as the WDA passes will provide space for all parties to develop their domestic agenda.

    I doubt Brexit will stop being an issue in my lifetime. (Mind you at 76 next birthday that may not be so surprising !!!!)
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Boris cannot get the Withdrawal Agreement through because he has promised the ERG that they will get no deal on October 31st, so they won't vote for it, and the Opposition parties are are confident that they can stop no deal by other means, or are comfortable with blaming the Tories for no deal.

    One side, or the other, will prove to be mistaken, as in March, and there will be hell to pay when we find out which side that is.

    The Tories are between a rock and a hard place.

    No Deal = economic crisis
    Delay Brexit = death by a thousand cuts
    Revoke = Tory obliteration

    Their only hope is a Deal, which is now impossible because Boris has promised the ERG that they will get no deal on 31 Oct.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    This site has never been right wing but establishment liberal and anti hard Brexit.

    There are other pro Boris posters on PB e.g. Philip Thompson, Gin, Viceroy of Orange etc but the PB consensus has always been anti Boris and I have long been one of the few arguing for him.

    However the view amongst Tory members and in the country as a whole is rather more pro Boris than on PB


    https://twitter.com/ConHome/status/1149210110666977286?s=20
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1148312432768684032?s=20
    Just reflect for a moment on the posters who support him. Viceroy of Orange. Gin (who I like very much) and Philip Thompson. The reason we're in this mess is because Blackpool Hartlepool and Stoke were asked a question they didn't have the competence to answer
    This democracy malarkey can be a bit awkward can't it. Time to stop letting the plebs vote.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yawn. Yet another anti Boris diatribe of an article based purely on Boris hatred

    Only Boris has the determination, the ruthlessness and the charisma to finally defeat the diehard Remainers and deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal by d Remainer LDs and SNP.

    First things first, you accused me of being a Lib Dem last night. Fair enough, I joined the Liberal Party in 1980 so I can't gainsay that. Second, and in case you've forgotten in the Boris hysteria, I voted to LEAVE on 23/6/16.

    What I didn't vote for was the disorganised and ill thought-out shambles that has been the last three and a bit years. It was perfectly possible to get a deal which would have removed the UK from the political aspects yet maintained a strong economic relationship. However, you Tories decided only you knew what was best for Britain and the rest of us were politely but firmly told not to get involved and to "Trust Theresa".

    Now, we are supposed to walk over the cliff edge and leave without a Deal simply in order to satisfy some ludicrous notion of a democratic deficit and to make one individual look important. We are told the damage to democracy if we don't leave will be greater than the damage to the economy if we do leave without a Deal.

    Try telling that to the man or woman who loses their job this autumn or winter just in order to satisfy some ludicrous notion of a democratic deficit. Democratic deficits don't feed families or pay bills.

    I would like us to leave the EU - I do not want to damage the country in so doing. The failure of the Conservative Party and Government to achieve a proper and sustainable departure is something they deserve to be fully held to account.
    You want an EEA Brexit, most Leave voters want a Brexit that leaves the EU, the Single Market and Customs Union and enables us to regain sovereignty, control of our borders and do our own trade deals exactly as the Leave campaign promised.

    If the only Brexit you will accept is one that in many respects is not really leaving at all you should not have voted to Leave in the first place
    My MP Marcus Fysh told me in writing, when I raised a number of concerns with him, a few months before the referendum that, in the unlikely event that leave won we would never leave EEA/EFTA as it was not in our interests. So he’s another one who was economical with the truth.
    Fysh even backed WTO terms Brexit here

    https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2016/06/marcus-fysh-keep-calm-think-clearly-and-ignore-the-alarmism-fearmongering-and-scare-tactics-of-the-treasury.html
    So he lied to me in writing shame I didn’t keep the letter. That’s ok then is it?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Chukka Umuna is very good this morning. Labour were very unlucky when he walked away at the start of their leadership campaign.
  • Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    This site has never been right wing but establishment liberal and anti hard Brexit.

    There are other pro Boris posters on PB e.g. Philip Thompson, Gin, Viceroy of Orange etc but the PB consensus has always been anti Boris and I have long been one of the few arguing for him.

    However the view amongst Tory members and in the country as a whole is rather more pro Boris than on PB


    https://twitter.com/ConHome/status/1149210110666977286?s=20
    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1148312432768684032?s=20
    Just reflect for a moment on the posters who support him. Viceroy of Orange. Gin (who I like very much) and Philip Thompson. The reason we're in this mess is because Blackpool Hartlepool and Stoke were asked a question they didn't have the competence to answer
    Are you trying to say northerners are thick and incapable of understanding politics? It is because of people like you that made the UK vote leave
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    HYUFD said:

    Boris can't be accused of exciting exagerrated expectations, can he? He only has to avoid accidentally blowing up the Commons to be seen as better than expected.

    Personally I think he'll get the WA, heavily disguised by rhetoric, through, and that will stand him in good steady with the public for a bit. But I also think hubris will strike and he'll then call an election, which will turn out just like 2017.

    May still stayed in power after 2017 if Boris passed the Withdrawal Agreement and got a 2017 style result that would be quite an achievement.

    However I still think Boris would win a majority, he is a better campaigner than May and would not make gaffes like the dementia 6
    Boris will be a refreshing change to the Maybot . He does at least have a personality and is more likely to win the next election than any other contender. At least we will have a PM who actually wants to leave the EU , unlike May
    Anyone who thinks that May didn't want to leave the EU hasn't been paying attention for 3 years. She just didn't want to destroy the country doing it. She provided the means to leave EU, and a huge proportion of supposed committed leavers in the Tory Party refused to vote for it.

  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Boris cannot get the Withdrawal Agreement through because he has promised the ERG that they will get no deal on October 31st, so they won't vote for it, and the Opposition parties are are confident that they can stop no deal by other means, or are comfortable with blaming the Tories for no deal.

    One side, or the other, will prove to be mistaken, as in March, and there will be hell to pay when we find out which side that is.

    The Tories are between a rock and a hard place.

    No Deal = economic crisis
    Delay Brexit = death by a thousand cuts
    Revoke = Tory obliteration

    Their only hope is a Deal, which is now impossible because Boris has promised the ERG that they will get no deal on 31 Oct.
    Cameron by not having a second referendum on the final deal really, really, really screwed the Tory party for ever.

    The entertaining bit is that history will regard the following (last) 2 Tory PMs as worse than him...
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    HYUFD said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    I've just had a flick through this thread and out of 200 posts so far only one seems to be a supporter of Johnson. Never has there been such unanimity! Has the site's right wing bias disappeared or can we all discern what a majority of Tory MPs can't?

    The site is composed of people who study and understand politics in depth.

    Therefore, they can all see that BoJo is an idiot.

    There was similar unanimity over Corbyn. In many ways he's been a worse disaster than we expected because he hasn't been an electoral calamity and Labour are consequently stuck with him. But it's hard to see Boris being anything other than the most pathetically inadequate party leader since the Marquess of Granby.
    Boris is an election winner.
    That is why the Conservative membership and MPs will vote for him.

    Exactly, if diehard Remainers want to vote LD, vote LD, don't try and change the Tory Party into the LDs
    I agree, you stick to your opinion.
    On Boris , I agree with you.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    eek said:

    Boris cannot get the Withdrawal Agreement through because he has promised the ERG that they will get no deal on October 31st, so they won't vote for it, and the Opposition parties are are confident that they can stop no deal by other means, or are comfortable with blaming the Tories for no deal.

    One side, or the other, will prove to be mistaken, as in March, and there will be hell to pay when we find out which side that is.

    The Tories are between a rock and a hard place.

    No Deal = economic crisis
    Delay Brexit = death by a thousand cuts
    Revoke = Tory obliteration

    Their only hope is a Deal, which is now impossible because Boris has promised the ERG that they will get no deal on 31 Oct.
    Cameron by not having a second referendum on the final deal really, really, really screwed the Tory party for ever.

    The entertaining bit is that history will regard the following (last) 2 Tory PMs as worse than him...
    He's still the Party's best candidate for the leadership! How funny is that?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. eek, debatable. I'd say the error was inexplicably not having a definition of leaving, so it was the EU versus not the EU rather than (say) EEA membership, or an FTA or suchlike.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yawn. Yet another anti Boris diatribe of an article based purely on Boris hatred

    Only Boris has the determination, the ruthlessness and the charisma to finally defeat the diehard Remainers and deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal by d Remainer LDs and SNP.

    Try telling that to the man or woman who loses their job this autumn or winter just in order to satisfy some ludicrous notion of a democratic deficit. Democratic deficits don't feed families or pay bills.

    I would like us to leave the EU - I do not want to damage the country in so doing. The failure of the Conservative Party and Government to achieve a proper and sustainable departure is something they deserve to be fully held to account.
    You want an EEA Brexit, most Leave voters want a Brexit that leaves the EU, the Single Market and Customs Union and enables us to regain sovereignty, control of our borders and do our own trade deals exactly as the Leave campaign promised.

    If the only Brexit you will accept is one that in many respects is not really leaving at all you should not have voted to Leave in the first place
    My MP Marcus Fysh told me in writing, when I raised a number of concerns with him, a few months before the referendum that, in the unlikely event that leave won we would never leave EEA/EFTA as it was not in our interests. So he’s another one who was economical with the truth.
    Fysh even backed WTO terms Brexit here

    https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2016/06/marcus-fysh-keep-calm-think-clearly-and-ignore-the-alarmism-fearmongering-and-scare-tactics-of-the-treasury.html
    So he lied to me in writing shame I didn’t keep the letter. That’s ok then is it?
    He was promoting the Norway option publicly the day before the referendum.

    image
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    HYUFD said:

    Boris cannot get the Withdrawal Agreement through because he has promised the ERG that they will get no deal on October 31st, so they won't vote for it, and the Opposition parties are are confident that they can stop no deal by other means, or are comfortable with blaming the Tories for no deal.

    One side, or the other, will prove to be mistaken, as in March, and there will be hell to pay when we find out which side that is.

    Boris can only get the Withdrawal Agreement through with a Tory majority by early autumn, without that he has to go for No Deal on October 31st otherwise the Brexit Party will destroy the Tories and Farage could well end up PM instead
    Even with a Conservative majority an election could make it harder to pass the Withdrawal Agreement. Boris would risk seeing moderate MPs, like Boles and Clarke, who voted for the Withdrawal Agreement, replaced by new MPs with an ideological fixation on no deal.

    Also, to win the election he would have to show a lot of no deal leg, which would still give the ERG permission to vote against and hang-on for no deal on October 31st.

    I frequently admit to being wrong, but I don't see any way for Boris to pass the Withdrawal Agreement.
This discussion has been closed.