Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why many pollsters overstated LAB so much at the May Euros and

SystemSystem Posts: 11,020
edited July 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why many pollsters overstated LAB so much at the May Euros and what could be happening with current VI polls

 

Read the full story here


«134

Comments

  • Options
    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870
    edited July 2019
    First like, oh, Plaid Cymru or something. Who the hell knows any more.

    Interesting observation on voter recall. I fhink the crucial implication is that people are now ashamed of having voted Labour - because of antisemitism and the farcical Brexit equivocation - so are denying having done so.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Looks to me like it shows a proportion of Labour voters (net) have gone to all 3 rival parties, but especially Brexit. Which goes to show that Brexit Party dying may not be exclusively good news for the Tories. Many Brexit Party voters will be former Labour ones who would never in a million years vote Tory.
  • Options
    dodradedodrade Posts: 595
    It's rather worrying the future of the country depends on people who can't even remember who they voted for.
  • Options
    dodradedodrade Posts: 595
    edited July 2019
    Deleted double post.
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    dodrade said:

    It's rather worrying the future of the country depends on people who can't even remember who they voted for.

    Maybe they remember, but they're ashamed?
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    I think the excellent Anthony Wells has probably nailed this. As a result I'm going to give more credence to YouGov rather than other pollsters in future, if the discrepancy persists.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    dodrade said:

    It's rather worrying the future of the country depends on people who can't even remember who they voted for.

    Maybe they remember, but they're ashamed?
    Or they're answering a different question.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    edited July 2019

    I think the excellent Anthony Wells has probably nailed this. As a result I'm going to give more credence to YouGov rather than other pollsters in future, if the discrepancy persists.

    Surely the other companies are also aware of the phenomenon and are dealing with it in what they believe to be an appropriate manner?
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    I think the excellent Anthony Wells has probably nailed this. As a result I'm going to give more credence to YouGov rather than other pollsters in future, if the discrepancy persists.

    Surely the other companies are also aware of the phenomenon and are dealing with it in what they believe to be an appropriate manner?
    That's tricky, because you calibrate your adjustments on the basis of what seemed to be an appropriate manner based on historic experience.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    Why do they need to resign?
    Resign from what? From Cabinet?
    What - is May going to sack them?
  • Options
    booksellerbookseller Posts: 421
    dodrade said:

    It's rather worrying the future of the country depends on people who can't even remember who they voted for.

    Frankly I'm amazed the error is so low. The list of cognitive biases when it comes to memory is huge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases#Memory_errors_and_biases
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1151600723420950528

    The line from the Labour spokesman was that Diane Hayter's remarks were insensitive to Jews.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Why do they need to resign?
    Resign from what? From Cabinet?
    What - is May going to sack them?
    It's not honourable to break a three-line whip when you're a cabinet minister.

  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    dr_spyn said:

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1151600723420950528

    The line from the Labour spokesman was that Diane Hayter's remarks were insensitive to Jews.

    What an utter load of bollocks from that spokesperson.

    Her sacking was inevitable but only because she spoke out against the great Leader.
  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    Why do they need to resign?
    Resign from what? From Cabinet?
    What - is May going to sack them?
    It's not honourable to break a three-line whip when you're a cabinet minister.

    If you are out of a job next Wednesday, what have you got to lose?
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    I think the excellent Anthony Wells has probably nailed this. As a result I'm going to give more credence to YouGov rather than other pollsters in future, if the discrepancy persists.

    There's still a very large difference between Ipsos Mori and Yougov, so I'd be wary of relying on Yougov alone.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2019


    If you are out of a job next Wednesday, what have you got to lose?

    Nothing, but you want to maintain your reputation for integrity. To put it another way, what have they got to lose by getting their resignations in first?
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Why do they need to resign?
    Resign from what? From Cabinet?
    What - is May going to sack them?
    It's not honourable to break a three-line whip when you're a cabinet minister.

    Does that actually mean anything at this stage of the game?

    We jumped that shark sometime ago with Johnny Mercer’s demented letter telling Mrs May “you’re not the boss of me”, or whatever it was.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    I think the excellent Anthony Wells has probably nailed this. As a result I'm going to give more credence to YouGov rather than other pollsters in future, if the discrepancy persists.

    There's still a very large difference between Ipsos Mori and Yougov, so I'd be wary of relying on Yougov alone.
    Yes. In general I've found Ipsos MORI good at spotting trends but they seem to overshoot when there are shifts in sentiment.
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    This is a very good piece of work, but as far as I can tell it explains less than half of the systematic difference between Yougov and the other past vote weighting opinion polls.

    There's clearly something else going on.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,288
    I think I voted Tory in 2017 :lol:
  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    If there are high profile resignations, there could be some very short lived replacements if they are key roles
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    If there are high profile resignations, there could be some very short lived replacements if they are key roles

    Barclay for Chancellor?

    Hehe.
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    edited July 2019

    dr_spyn said:

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1151600723420950528

    The line from the Labour spokesman was that Diane Hayter's remarks were insensitive to Jews.

    What an utter load of bollocks from that spokesperson.

    Her sacking was inevitable but only because she spoke out against the great Leader.
    The insincerity is on a new level, or as you said bollocks.

  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    Now that Corbyn’s got rid of the Hayters, will he turn his attention to the Wreckers?
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2019
    If there are resignations by the sane business-friendly cabinet ministers (presumably David Gauke and Greg Clark) then sterling is going to fall tomorrow. If Phil Hammond joins them it's going to tank.
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    I think the excellent Anthony Wells has probably nailed this. As a result I'm going to give more credence to YouGov rather than other pollsters in future, if the discrepancy persists.

    There's still a very large difference between Ipsos Mori and Yougov, so I'd be wary of relying on Yougov alone.
    Yes. In general I've found Ipsos MORI good at spotting trends but they seem to overshoot when there are shifts in sentiment.
    That's an interesting observation given that Ipsos Mori currently have the lowest share for the Brexit Party.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079

    If there are resignations by the sane business-friendly cabinet ministers (presumably David Gauke and Greg Clark) then sterling is going to fall tomorrow. If Phil Hammond joins them it's going to tank.

    Short all the sterling! 💁‍♂️
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    I think I voted Tory in 2017 :lol:

    IIRC you voted Labour in 2015 as you supported Ed Miliband?
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Swift justice: Hayter’s gonna hate but Corbyn can’t shake it off.
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    Why do they need to resign?
    Resign from what? From Cabinet?
    What - is May going to sack them?
    Either way their careers are probably going to hit the buffers. Might as well go out in a bang rather than a whimper! If they spike Boris on the way out they get extra points!
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    dr_spyn said:

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1151600723420950528

    The line from the Labour spokesman was that Diane Hayter's remarks were insensitive to Jews.

    Gosh, isn’t that a fine example of English irony?
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    If there are resignations by the sane business-friendly cabinet ministers (presumably David Gauke and Greg Clark) then sterling is going to fall tomorrow. If Phil Hammond joins them it's going to tank.

    Short all the sterling! 💁‍♂️
    Of course it might bounce back if parliament does vote in a way which makes suspension of parliament more difficult!

    One of the oddities of the current sterling market is that volatility hasn't markedly increased. Given that we are facing an imminent choice between two outcomes with wildly different implications for sterling, that's very strange.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Why do they need to resign?
    Resign from what? From Cabinet?
    What - is May going to sack them?
    Either way their careers are probably going to hit the buffers. Might as well go out in a bang rather than a whimper! If they spike Boris on the way out they get extra points!
    Would love to see that puffball punctured.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,838

    Why do they need to resign?
    Resign from what? From Cabinet?
    What - is May going to sack them?
    Either way their careers are probably going to hit the buffers. Might as well go out in a bang rather than a whimper! If they spike Boris on the way out they get extra points!
    If they do, then we'll know who are loyal Conservatives, and who are not.
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Sean_F said:

    Why do they need to resign?
    Resign from what? From Cabinet?
    What - is May going to sack them?
    Either way their careers are probably going to hit the buffers. Might as well go out in a bang rather than a whimper! If they spike Boris on the way out they get extra points!
    If they do, then we'll know who are loyal Conservatives, and who are not.
    With the greatest of respect who are you to talk about loyalty to the Conservatives?
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,811
    Sean_F said:

    Why do they need to resign?
    Resign from what? From Cabinet?
    What - is May going to sack them?
    Either way their careers are probably going to hit the buffers. Might as well go out in a bang rather than a whimper! If they spike Boris on the way out they get extra points!
    If they do, then we'll know who are loyal Conservatives, and who are not.
    The world is such that, even with you, who has been fairly dry on Brexit for most of these years, I've lost track of which way round you are assigning those two categories!
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    I just had a quick look at the Daily Telegraph and what do I see but Boris Johnson pictured with a kipper. Does this man know how to be serious? You don't need props to be PM but gravitas, reassurance and good judgement. I don't believe holding up a smelly dead fish in front of an audience meets any of these benchmarks...
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,838

    Sean_F said:

    Why do they need to resign?
    Resign from what? From Cabinet?
    What - is May going to sack them?
    Either way their careers are probably going to hit the buffers. Might as well go out in a bang rather than a whimper! If they spike Boris on the way out they get extra points!
    If they do, then we'll know who are loyal Conservatives, and who are not.
    With the greatest of respect who are you to talk about loyalty to the Conservatives?
    I voted (and leafletted) for them in May. Did you?
    Pro_Rata said:

    Sean_F said:

    Why do they need to resign?
    Resign from what? From Cabinet?
    What - is May going to sack them?
    Either way their careers are probably going to hit the buffers. Might as well go out in a bang rather than a whimper! If they spike Boris on the way out they get extra points!
    If they do, then we'll know who are loyal Conservatives, and who are not.
    The world is such that, even with you, who has been fairly dry on Brexit for most of these years, I've lost track of which way round you are assigning those two categories!
    The infuriating thing is the way that so many people want to drive you into a more hardline position than the one you favour.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    I just had a quick look at the Daily Telegraph and what do I see but Boris Johnson pictured with a kipper. Does this man know how to be serious? You don't need props to be PM but gravitas, reassurance and good judgement. I don't believe holding up a smelly dead fish in front of an audience meets any of these benchmarks...

    I don’t actually get the kipper point.

    Is he suggesting that it is a God-given Englishman’s liberty to send rotting fish through the post?

    Is that what this is all about?

    Let’s face it, it’s no “Krushchev’s shoe”, is it?
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Why do they need to resign?
    Resign from what? From Cabinet?
    What - is May going to sack them?
    Either way their careers are probably going to hit the buffers. Might as well go out in a bang rather than a whimper! If they spike Boris on the way out they get extra points!
    If they do, then we'll know who are loyal Conservatives, and who are not.
    With the greatest of respect who are you to talk about loyalty to the Conservatives?
    I voted (and leafletted) for them in May. Did you?
    Pro_Rata said:

    Sean_F said:

    Why do they need to resign?
    Resign from what? From Cabinet?
    What - is May going to sack them?
    Either way their careers are probably going to hit the buffers. Might as well go out in a bang rather than a whimper! If they spike Boris on the way out they get extra points!
    If they do, then we'll know who are loyal Conservatives, and who are not.
    The world is such that, even with you, who has been fairly dry on Brexit for most of these years, I've lost track of which way round you are assigning those two categories!
    The infuriating thing is the way that so many people want to drive you into a more hardline position than the one you favour.
    The Conservative Party is now solely defended by people who have spent the last ten years attacking the Conservative Party.
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Why do they need to resign?
    Resign from what? From Cabinet?
    What - is May going to sack them?
    Either way their careers are probably going to hit the buffers. Might as well go out in a bang rather than a whimper! If they spike Boris on the way out they get extra points!
    If they do, then we'll know who are loyal Conservatives, and who are not.
    With the greatest of respect who are you to talk about loyalty to the Conservatives?
    I voted (and leafletted) for them in May. Did you?
    Pro_Rata said:

    Sean_F said:

    Why do they need to resign?
    Resign from what? From Cabinet?
    What - is May going to sack them?
    Either way their careers are probably going to hit the buffers. Might as well go out in a bang rather than a whimper! If they spike Boris on the way out they get extra points!
    If they do, then we'll know who are loyal Conservatives, and who are not.
    The world is such that, even with you, who has been fairly dry on Brexit for most of these years, I've lost track of which way round you are assigning those two categories!
    The infuriating thing is the way that so many people want to drive you into a more hardline position than the one you favour.
    I don't vote Tory at the moment. But I seem to remember in past years you have supported UKIP, if you did not then I apologise for questioning your ability to judge MPs who have consistently backed the TM deal and the Conservative Government whilst others have joined opposition MPs in voting down the deal.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,216
    good to see the Mail hammering this government over social care.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847


    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Why do they need to resign?
    Resign from what? From Cabinet?
    What - is May going to sack them?
    Either way their careers are probably going to hit the buffers. Might as well go out in a bang rather than a whimper! If they spike Boris on the way out they get extra points!
    If they do, then we'll know who are loyal Conservatives, and who are not.
    With the greatest of respect who are you to talk about loyalty to the Conservatives?
    I voted (and leafletted) for them in May. Did you?
    Pro_Rata said:

    Sean_F said:

    Why do they need to resign?
    Resign from what? From Cabinet?
    What - is May going to sack them?
    Either way their careers are probably going to hit the buffers. Might as well go out in a bang rather than a whimper! If they spike Boris on the way out they get extra points!
    If they do, then we'll know who are loyal Conservatives, and who are not.
    The world is such that, even with you, who has been fairly dry on Brexit for most of these years, I've lost track of which way round you are assigning those two categories!
    The infuriating thing is the way that so many people want to drive you into a more hardline position than the one you favour.
    I don't vote Tory at the moment. But I seem to remember in past years you have supported UKIP, if you did not then I apologise for questioning your ability to judge MPs who have consistently backed the TM deal and the Conservative Government whilst others have joined opposition MPs in voting down the deal.
    Sean also talks about the various reasons he might support BXP.
  • Options
    nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Not sure Labour had any choice but to sack Hayter . You can’t make those sorts of comments and expect no repercussions .
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,216
    https://twitter.com/David__Osland/status/1151580997303046144

    Erm... It's 17th July Diane. When is this leadership challenge going to be fitted in?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,216
    nico67 said:

    Not sure Labour had any choice but to sack Hayter . You can’t make those sorts of comments and expect no repercussions .

    Godwins Law is breaking under the strain in modern politics frankly.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,216

    I just had a quick look at the Daily Telegraph and what do I see but Boris Johnson pictured with a kipper. Does this man know how to be serious? You don't need props to be PM but gravitas, reassurance and good judgement. I don't believe holding up a smelly dead fish in front of an audience meets any of these benchmarks...

    I don’t actually get the kipper point.

    Is he suggesting that it is a God-given Englishman’s liberty to send rotting fish through the post?

    Is that what this is all about?

    Let’s face it, it’s no “Krushchev’s shoe”, is it?
    When David Miliband was photographed with a banana, many said his career was over.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    https://twitter.com/David__Osland/status/1151580997303046144

    Erm... It's 17th July Diane. When is this leadership challenge going to be fitted in?

    It would normally be timed to coincide with the run-up to the party conference.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,942

    Why do they need to resign?
    Resign from what? From Cabinet?
    What - is May going to sack them?
    That is weird. Given that May has made it clear that she - and by implication her current Government - are firmly against the idea of prorogation, why should any minister have to resign to vote against something that it is Government policy to oppose anyway?

    They should stay in their posts, vote for whatever measures are intended to stop suspension and then sit back and hopefully watch as absolutely nothing happens to them. It would be utterly perverse if May were to sack anyone over it.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    nico67 said:

    Not sure Labour had any choice but to sack Hayter . You can’t make those sorts of comments and expect no repercussions .

    “All I said was it was like the last days of Corbyn’s Labour” pic.twitter.com/x4qcwydumK

    — Mo' (@mocent0) July 17, 2019
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,626
    What is the issue that had Boris waving the kipper? I dont get it.

    Is it that he wants to deviate from EU food packaging regulations, yet still have free movement of kipper exports?

  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,081
    Is doubling down on doubling down qaudrupling down?

    https://twitter.com/ZekeJMiller/status/1151601571869974529
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    edited July 2019

    I just had a quick look at the Daily Telegraph and what do I see but Boris Johnson pictured with a kipper. Does this man know how to be serious? You don't need props to be PM but gravitas, reassurance and good judgement. I don't believe holding up a smelly dead fish in front of an audience meets any of these benchmarks...

    I don’t actually get the kipper point.

    Is he suggesting that it is a God-given Englishman’s liberty to send rotting fish through the post?

    Is that what this is all about?

    Let’s face it, it’s no “Krushchev’s shoe”, is it?
    The only thing that Boris can do that will make me laugh is when he slowly realises that people don't find him funny any more! That is going to kill him. If that does not happen he has the problem of people not taking him seriously. He has made it such a key part of himself he cannot keep it switched off. I will give you an example: In 1997 for instance the UK had an unforeseen Royal death. If Boris had been PM, then, instead of Blair and Boris had mentioned something about a People's Princess, some would probably think he was taking the piss and comparing her to Barbie!

    I have experienced several people in reality with a comedy persona similar to Boris and people around them become conditioned to laughing whenever they say something even if it is not funny or completely inappropriate.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205

    https://twitter.com/David__Osland/status/1151580997303046144

    Erm... It's 17th July Diane. When is this leadership challenge going to be fitted in?

    It would normally be timed to coincide with the run-up to the party conference.
    When is the second challenge happening? Or is Diane having trouble with numbers again?
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2019
    Cyclefree said:

    https://twitter.com/David__Osland/status/1151580997303046144

    Erm... It's 17th July Diane. When is this leadership challenge going to be fitted in?

    It would normally be timed to coincide with the run-up to the party conference.
    When is the second challenge happening? Or is Diane having trouble with numbers again?
    I've no idea. I think it very unlikely TBH, but then I'm not a member of the Labour Party, let alone a shadow cabinet minister, so maybe she knows something we don't.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    nico67 said:

    Not sure Labour had any choice but to sack Hayter . You can’t make those sorts of comments and expect no repercussions .


    Understandably. Hitler was a Zionist. Ken keeps telling us. And we know what Corbyn thinks of them.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995
    Looks like Survation may no longer be Gold Standard then, as reinforced by the European elections but Yougov and Ipsos Mori
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,216
    Cyclefree said:

    nico67 said:

    Not sure Labour had any choice but to sack Hayter . You can’t make those sorts of comments and expect no repercussions .


    Understandably. Hitler was a Zionist. Ken keeps telling us. And we know what Corbyn thinks of them.
    :lol:
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    HYUFD said:

    Looks like Survation may no longer be Gold Standard then, as reinforced by the European elections but Yougov and Ipsos Mori

    I wonder if August opinion polls being the fickle beasts they tend to be, will overestimate the Tories or underestimate them? It could lead to Boris having a good bounce or a terrible one! I spoke to a Tory voter today who said only a few weeks ago she did not like Boris because of all that stuff about an argument in his flat. Today, she said she quite liked him; talk about fickle! On the positive side I think I planted a few seeds of doubt in her mind about Boris's promise to leave by 31/10/2019. The new commission on the 1st of November should be interesting anyway in their attitude to our membership of the EU...
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995

    HYUFD said:

    Looks like Survation may no longer be Gold Standard then, as reinforced by the European elections but Yougov and Ipsos Mori

    I wonder if August opinion polls being the fickle beasts they tend to be, will overestimate the Tories or underestimate them? It could lead to Boris having a good bounce or a terrible one! I spoke to a Tory voter today who said only a few weeks ago she did not like Boris because of all that stuff about an argument in his flat. Today, she said she quite liked him; talk about fickle! On the positive side I think I planted a few seeds of doubt in her mind about Boris's promise to leave by 31/10/2019. The new commission on the 1st of November should be interesting anyway in their attitude to our membership of the EU...
    The fact most pollsters bar Yougov have Labour ahead at the moment will help Boris as if the Tories go ahead next week he can say it was mainly down to him and a commitment to deliver Brexit
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745

    Is doubling down on doubling down qaudrupling down?

    https://twitter.com/ZekeJMiller/status/1151601571869974529

    Even if he were the greatest president of modern times, he would still be a colossal shitbag.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    Cyclefree said:

    https://twitter.com/David__Osland/status/1151580997303046144

    Erm... It's 17th July Diane. When is this leadership challenge going to be fitted in?

    It would normally be timed to coincide with the run-up to the party conference.
    When is the second challenge happening? Or is Diane having trouble with numbers again?
    People standing in the initial contest he won was a challenge in itself, as they were challenging his rightful claim to be the only true Labour leader. Or she miscounted.
  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    https://twitter.com/David__Osland/status/1151580997303046144

    Erm... It's 17th July Diane. When is this leadership challenge going to be fitted in?

    It would normally be timed to coincide with the run-up to the party conference.
    When is the second challenge happening? Or is Diane having trouble with numbers again?
    People standing in the initial contest he won was a challenge in itself, as they were challenging his rightful claim to be the only true Labour leader. Or she miscounted.
    I think the latter is far more likely given her track record.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995
    edited July 2019
    New Italian poll shows allegations about Salvini oil deals with Putin have not affected his support.

    Lega Nord still well ahead on 37.7%, the Democratic Party second on 22%, Five Star third on 17.9% with Forza Italia on 7%

    http://tg.la7.it/sondaggi/il-sondaggio-politico-di-lunedì-15-luglio-2019-15-07-2019-140645
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    https://twitter.com/David__Osland/status/1151580997303046144

    Erm... It's 17th July Diane. When is this leadership challenge going to be fitted in?

    It would normally be timed to coincide with the run-up to the party conference.
    When is the second challenge happening? Or is Diane having trouble with numbers again?
    People standing in the initial contest he won was a challenge in itself, as they were challenging his rightful claim to be the only true Labour leader. Or she miscounted.
    I hear Corbyn would be a total disaster for the UK, but I know nothing about it.
  • Options
    ViceroyViceroy Posts: 128
    edited July 2019
    Remainer Cabinet Ministers resigning and voting against should speed up the deselection processes. There's no way a Conservative MP will survive in the Tory Party if they hand control back over to the corrupt Remainer House of Commons.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Why do they need to resign?
    Resign from what? From Cabinet?
    What - is May going to sack them?
    Choice is between resigning as a point if principle and a doughty defender of Parliament vs be sacked by BoJo...
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,965
    HYUFD said:

    New Italian poll shows allegations about Salvini oil deals with Putin have not affected his support.

    Lega Nord still well ahead on 37.7%, the Democratic Party second on 22%, Five Star third on 17.9% with Forza Italia on 7%

    http://tg.la7.it/sondaggi/il-sondaggio-politico-di-lunedì-15-luglio-2019-15-07-2019-140645

    Are they thinking of changing their name? Northern League seems a little outmoded. A regional party polling nearly 38% nationwide.
    FI seem pretty redundant btw.
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    edited July 2019

    I just had a quick look at the Daily Telegraph and what do I see but Boris Johnson pictured with a kipper. Does this man know how to be serious? You don't need props to be PM but gravitas, reassurance and good judgement. I don't believe holding up a smelly dead fish in front of an audience meets any of these benchmarks...

    I don’t actually get the kipper point.

    Is he suggesting that it is a God-given Englishman’s liberty to send rotting fish through the post?

    Is that what this is all about?

    Let’s face it, it’s no “Krushchev’s shoe”, is it?
    When David Miliband was photographed with a banana, many said his career was over.
    What was he doing with the banana?!
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited July 2019
    Yougov was the only pollster to underestimate Labour in the EU elections - despite having stopped polling a bit earlier.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    New Italian poll shows allegations about Salvini oil deals with Putin have not affected his support.

    Lega Nord still well ahead on 37.7%, the Democratic Party second on 22%, Five Star third on 17.9% with Forza Italia on 7%

    http://tg.la7.it/sondaggi/il-sondaggio-politico-di-lunedì-15-luglio-2019-15-07-2019-140645

    Are they thinking of changing their name? Northern League seems a little outmoded. A regional party polling nearly 38% nationwide.
    FI seem pretty redundant btw.
    In the South of Italy they are (or were) called Us With Salvini.
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Looks like Survation may no longer be Gold Standard then, as reinforced by the European elections but Yougov and Ipsos Mori

    I wonder if August opinion polls being the fickle beasts they tend to be, will overestimate the Tories or underestimate them? It could lead to Boris having a good bounce or a terrible one! I spoke to a Tory voter today who said only a few weeks ago she did not like Boris because of all that stuff about an argument in his flat. Today, she said she quite liked him; talk about fickle! On the positive side I think I planted a few seeds of doubt in her mind about Boris's promise to leave by 31/10/2019. The new commission on the 1st of November should be interesting anyway in their attitude to our membership of the EU...
    The fact most pollsters bar Yougov have Labour ahead at the moment will help Boris as if the Tories go ahead next week he can say it was mainly down to him and a commitment to deliver Brexit
    Time will tell! I noticed the stories about a GE have fizzled out. Still a forced one might still happen!
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    F35 aircraft -- if the US has banned Turkey over Russian S400 missiles, and previously Turkey had been set to service British F35s, does that mean that contract is up for grabs by a new prime minister or will be repatriated to the US as part of MAGA?
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,965

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Looks like Survation may no longer be Gold Standard then, as reinforced by the European elections but Yougov and Ipsos Mori

    I wonder if August opinion polls being the fickle beasts they tend to be, will overestimate the Tories or underestimate them? It could lead to Boris having a good bounce or a terrible one! I spoke to a Tory voter today who said only a few weeks ago she did not like Boris because of all that stuff about an argument in his flat. Today, she said she quite liked him; talk about fickle! On the positive side I think I planted a few seeds of doubt in her mind about Boris's promise to leave by 31/10/2019. The new commission on the 1st of November should be interesting anyway in their attitude to our membership of the EU...
    The fact most pollsters bar Yougov have Labour ahead at the moment will help Boris as if the Tories go ahead next week he can say it was mainly down to him and a commitment to deliver Brexit
    Time will tell! I noticed the stories about a GE have fizzled out. Still a forced one might still happen!
    Suggests the Boris supporting press are simply floating a series of trial balloons. GE, never ending transition, re-negotiations, Hard No Deal, in the desperate hope one of them, anything, will find some traction in the real world.
    So far, not much.
    Nothing has Changed, ironically.
    Neither the maths in Parliament, nor the prospect of winning a GE without any kind of credible plan. Hence the massive tax cuts, and a huge rise in spending, whilst ignoring Brexit ideas of some days ago.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Viceroy said:

    Remainer Cabinet Ministers resigning and voting against should speed up the deselection processes. There's no way a Conservative MP will survive in the Tory Party if they hand control back over to the corrupt Remainer House of Commons.

    Shadsy should open a market on which party has the most deselections. Labour would have been 10s-on shots before Brexit madness hit the blue team.
  • Options
    MJWMJW Posts: 1,350
    On topic, I think another problem

    Cyclefree said:

    https://twitter.com/David__Osland/status/1151580997303046144

    Erm... It's 17th July Diane. When is this leadership challenge going to be fitted in?

    It would normally be timed to coincide with the run-up to the party conference.
    When is the second challenge happening? Or is Diane having trouble with numbers again?
    I've no idea. I think it very unlikely TBH, but then I'm not a member of the Labour Party, let alone a shadow cabinet minister, so maybe she knows something we don't.
    It'll only happen as a last ditch attempt (or suicide mission) before a proper split, and I'd suggest Abbott's words could be worrying for Labour MPs as it's the leadership that will precipitate it rather than the PLP.

    Their goal is deselections and a democratic centralist Labour that is unflinchingly loyal to the leadership - even on appalling stuff like antisemitism. As we've seen, these are people who thought nothing of trying to trash ex-staffers with heartbreaking stories.

    They know they have the PLP in a bind, as speaking up means abuse and deselections and a challenge is thought likely to fail, and so have calculated they can push them about as far as they like. Even Watson is now in open warfare with the leadership.

    Given the nature of the PLP, you'd imagine it'll just involve more grumbling before stepping down and deselections. But maybe, Corbyn and his acolytes wrongly calculate and push them too far and, especially if Watson decides he's had enough, they decide they might as well have one last stand before splitting.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Mirror and Express owner enters race to buy the i publisher
    Reach has submitted an indicative offer for JPI Media, which owns The Scotsman and Yorkshire Post, Sky News learns.

    https://news.sky.com/story/amp/mirror-and-express-owner-enters-race-to-buy-the-i-publisher-11765053
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,965
    edited July 2019

    Viceroy said:

    Remainer Cabinet Ministers resigning and voting against should speed up the deselection processes. There's no way a Conservative MP will survive in the Tory Party if they hand control back over to the corrupt Remainer House of Commons.

    Shadsy should open a market on which party has the most deselections. Labour would have been 10s-on shots before Brexit madness hit the blue team.
    And yet. Despite all the talk, how many Labour MPs have actually been deselected? I can think of Danczuk, which was a Sui Generis case. Others have walked or retired of course, but that is different.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    New Italian poll shows allegations about Salvini oil deals with Putin have not affected his support.

    Lega Nord still well ahead on 37.7%, the Democratic Party second on 22%, Five Star third on 17.9% with Forza Italia on 7%

    http://tg.la7.it/sondaggi/il-sondaggio-politico-di-lunedì-15-luglio-2019-15-07-2019-140645

    Are they thinking of changing their name? Northern League seems a little outmoded. A regional party polling nearly 38% nationwide.
    FI seem pretty redundant btw.
    FI's vote has largely gone to Lega Nord though the 2 parties were coalition partners at the last general election, Berlusconi now off in Brussels anyway having been elected an MEP
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Looks like Survation may no longer be Gold Standard then, as reinforced by the European elections but Yougov and Ipsos Mori

    I wonder if August opinion polls being the fickle beasts they tend to be, will overestimate the Tories or underestimate them? It could lead to Boris having a good bounce or a terrible one! I spoke to a Tory voter today who said only a few weeks ago she did not like Boris because of all that stuff about an argument in his flat. Today, she said she quite liked him; talk about fickle! On the positive side I think I planted a few seeds of doubt in her mind about Boris's promise to leave by 31/10/2019. The new commission on the 1st of November should be interesting anyway in their attitude to our membership of the EU...
    The fact most pollsters bar Yougov have Labour ahead at the moment will help Boris as if the Tories go ahead next week he can say it was mainly down to him and a commitment to deliver Brexit
    Time will tell! I noticed the stories about a GE have fizzled out. Still a forced one might still happen!
    Suggests the Boris supporting press are simply floating a series of trial balloons. GE, never ending transition, re-negotiations, Hard No Deal, in the desperate hope one of them, anything, will find some traction in the real world.
    So far, not much.
    Nothing has Changed, ironically.
    Neither the maths in Parliament, nor the prospect of winning a GE without any kind of credible plan. Hence the massive tax cuts, and a huge rise in spending, whilst ignoring Brexit ideas of some days ago.
    Boris and his Voodoo economics!
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,997

    F35 aircraft -- if the US has banned Turkey over Russian S400 missiles, and previously Turkey had been set to service British F35s, does that mean that contract is up for grabs by a new prime minister or will be repatriated to the US as part of MAGA?

    The Turkish facility was for engine overhaul only. In the short term, at least, the work will go to the P&W overhaul centre in Columbus, OH. There is no other suitable P&W facility in Europe.

    Although that is not to say that one couldn't be built to get, say, Germany into the program.

    The UK already has 15% workshare and won't buy any more a/c no matter what baubles are dangled so there is no point in moving it to the UK.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Are Labour expected to lose their deposit at the B&R by-election?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,995
    AndyJS said:

    Are Labour expected to lose their deposit at the B&R by-election?

    If they do not that will boost the Tories, they got 17% in 2017 so unlikely
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Are Labour expected to lose their deposit at the B&R by-election?

    If they do not that will boost the Tories, they got 17% in 2017 so unlikely
    At the moment I'm thinking the result will be something like LD 45%, Con 35%.
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    dixiedean said:

    Viceroy said:

    Remainer Cabinet Ministers resigning and voting against should speed up the deselection processes. There's no way a Conservative MP will survive in the Tory Party if they hand control back over to the corrupt Remainer House of Commons.

    Shadsy should open a market on which party has the most deselections. Labour would have been 10s-on shots before Brexit madness hit the blue team.
    And yet. Despite all the talk, how many Labour MPs have actually been deselected? I can think of Danczuk, which was a Sui Generis case. Others have walked or retired of course, but that is different.
    With Hoey's retirement Roger Godsiff comes to mind as the most obvious Labour deselection, pretty sure he has said he is staying on (or wants to) could have been a target for lots of reasons but probably burned some of the remaining bridges with his comments on the LGBT in school protests.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987
    AndyJS said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Are Labour expected to lose their deposit at the B&R by-election?

    If they do not that will boost the Tories, they got 17% in 2017 so unlikely
    At the moment I'm thinking the result will be something like LD 45%, Con 35%.
    That leaves just 20% for BXP + Labour, which feels a bit low.

    I'd reckon something like LD 40%, Con 35% is a bit more likely.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987
    Am I the only person who thinks that the endless transition Boris now seems to be promising is going to bite him on the arse?

    Essentially, it means that on October 31, people will be cheering because we're out the EU. But come 2022, people will begin to notice that we're still in the transitional arrangements, which involve us paying money to Brussels, are still under the jurisdiction of the ECJ (the EEA at least has the EFTA Court in Luxembourg), and still have Freedom of Movement.

    From a personal perspective, I welcome it as an outcome. It's always been the political bit I've had an issue with, and would have been happy with EFTA/EEA as a destination. But ERG/BXP types are surely going to feel pretty pissed when they discover the transition is a perpetual one.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Are Labour expected to lose their deposit at the B&R by-election?

    If they do not that will boost the Tories, they got 17% in 2017 so unlikely
    At the moment I'm thinking the result will be something like LD 45%, Con 35%.
    That leaves just 20% for BXP + Labour, which feels a bit low.

    I'd reckon something like LD 40%, Con 35% is a bit more likely.
    Possibly, although I think Labour could collapse to around 5%.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    rcs1000 said:

    Am I the only person who thinks that the endless transition Boris now seems to be promising is going to bite him on the arse?

    Essentially, it means that on October 31, people will be cheering because we're out the EU. But come 2022, people will begin to notice that we're still in the transitional arrangements, which involve us paying money to Brussels, are still under the jurisdiction of the ECJ (the EEA at least has the EFTA Court in Luxembourg), and still have Freedom of Movement.

    From a personal perspective, I welcome it as an outcome. It's always been the political bit I've had an issue with, and would have been happy with EFTA/EEA as a destination. But ERG/BXP types are surely going to feel pretty pissed when they discover the transition is a perpetual one.

    How many divisions voters do they have? We will be out of the EU and if voters' lives are no better, can Nigel Farage convince them it is Boris's fault for the wrong sort of Brexit? My guess is disaffected voters would move to Labour rather than BXP.
  • Options
    ViceroyViceroy Posts: 128

    Viceroy said:

    Remainer Cabinet Ministers resigning and voting against should speed up the deselection processes. There's no way a Conservative MP will survive in the Tory Party if they hand control back over to the corrupt Remainer House of Commons.

    Shadsy should open a market on which party has the most deselections. Labour would have been 10s-on shots before Brexit madness hit the blue team.
    Brexit madness has already hit the blue team, just look at the behaviour of Soubry, Grieve, Stewart and others who are prepared to possibly hand power over to a Marxist opposition. They're the fruitcakes and loonies of the Tory Party as a forgettable man once said.
  • Options
    ViceroyViceroy Posts: 128

    rcs1000 said:

    Am I the only person who thinks that the endless transition Boris now seems to be promising is going to bite him on the arse?

    Essentially, it means that on October 31, people will be cheering because we're out the EU. But come 2022, people will begin to notice that we're still in the transitional arrangements, which involve us paying money to Brussels, are still under the jurisdiction of the ECJ (the EEA at least has the EFTA Court in Luxembourg), and still have Freedom of Movement.

    From a personal perspective, I welcome it as an outcome. It's always been the political bit I've had an issue with, and would have been happy with EFTA/EEA as a destination. But ERG/BXP types are surely going to feel pretty pissed when they discover the transition is a perpetual one.

    How many divisions voters do they have? We will be out of the EU and if voters' lives are no better, can Nigel Farage convince them it is Boris's fault for the wrong sort of Brexit? My guess is disaffected voters would move to Labour rather than BXP.
    Voters aren't stupid. If they see we're still in the EU in-all-but-name there will be a backlash, and that backlash certainly won't fall into the lap of the Starmers, Thornberrys and Watsons of the Labour Party. We saw this already in the European Elections with Farage hoovering up the votes of Leavers.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited July 2019
    Boris is overrated but I think he's also an urban liberal behind all the bluster. There's nothing for social conservatives to get excited about with him in Downing Street.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987
    Viceroy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Am I the only person who thinks that the endless transition Boris now seems to be promising is going to bite him on the arse?

    Essentially, it means that on October 31, people will be cheering because we're out the EU. But come 2022, people will begin to notice that we're still in the transitional arrangements, which involve us paying money to Brussels, are still under the jurisdiction of the ECJ (the EEA at least has the EFTA Court in Luxembourg), and still have Freedom of Movement.

    From a personal perspective, I welcome it as an outcome. It's always been the political bit I've had an issue with, and would have been happy with EFTA/EEA as a destination. But ERG/BXP types are surely going to feel pretty pissed when they discover the transition is a perpetual one.

    How many divisions voters do they have? We will be out of the EU and if voters' lives are no better, can Nigel Farage convince them it is Boris's fault for the wrong sort of Brexit? My guess is disaffected voters would move to Labour rather than BXP.
    Voters aren't stupid. If they see we're still in the EU in-all-but-name there will be a backlash, and that backlash certainly won't fall into the lap of the Starmers, Thornberrys and Watsons of the Labour Party. We saw this already in the European Elections with Farage hoovering up the votes of Leavers.
    It's a good question.

    Let's say Boris delivers this BINO (which, ironically, is massively more BINO than Mrs May's deal), well a third of Leave voters - people like me and SeanT and Richard_Tyndall - will be very happy. We got what we wanted.

    Most Remain voters will be happy.

    And about two thirds of Leave voters - about a third of the population - will be unhappy.

    There's room for Mr Farage there. And there's a lot of evidence (from Mathew Goodwin) that there's a hole in the market for an economically left wing, socially conservative, Eurosceptic Party. The difficulty for Mr Farage will be tempering his libertarian instincts to turn the Brexit Party into that,
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    AndyJS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Are Labour expected to lose their deposit at the B&R by-election?

    If they do not that will boost the Tories, they got 17% in 2017 so unlikely
    At the moment I'm thinking the result will be something like LD 45%, Con 35%.
    That leaves just 20% for BXP + Labour, which feels a bit low.

    I'd reckon something like LD 40%, Con 35% is a bit more likely.
    Possibly, although I think Labour could collapse to around 5%.
    Remain got 48% in B&R at the referendum and if Brexit really is the issue then that should be the target for the LDs. The main leave candidate looks set to be the Tory and the question for him is how much will BREX syphon off.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,666
    rcs1000 said:

    still have Freedom of Movement.
    .

    That will be the killer for many Leavers - who are a lot less fussed over trade deals/customs arrangements than control of borders.

    I see Johnson is reportedly going to appoint another of the Grieve/May/Green/Duncan Oxford generation - Daniel Moylan to Brexit advisor - by repute a “hard Brexiteer” with an Irish passport - but also held CrossRail’s feet to the fire when Johnson was Mayor and nay have been a loss when Khan sacked him.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,591
    kle4 said:

    Is doubling down on doubling down qaudrupling down?

    https://twitter.com/ZekeJMiller/status/1151601571869974529

    Even if he were the greatest president of modern times, he would still be a colossal shitbag.
    He is a dangerous colossal shitbag.

    Trump blasts minority Democrats, rally crowd chants 'send her back'
    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/453644-trump-blasts-minority-democrats-rally-crowd-chants-send-her-back
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    rcs1000 said:

    Am I the only person who thinks that the endless transition Boris now seems to be promising is going to bite him on the arse?

    Brexit doesn't solve any of the problems voters were unhappy about, and doesn't deliver any of the wild claims made for it by shysters like BoZo.

    It will crush the careers of many, and will be a hot topic of political debate for decades to come
This discussion has been closed.