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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » And so to next week’s Brecon & Radnorshire where new leaders S

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited July 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » And so to next week’s Brecon & Radnorshire where new leaders Swinson andJohnson will face their first electoral test

Number Cruncher Politics Brecon Poll

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Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    First like the LDs
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Second like not the LDs.
  • Commanding lead for the LD's there.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    Can't imagine it is the easiest of constituencies to poll.

    (Might not so easily reach Brexit Party voters, rather than understating Tories.)
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    fpt for TOMS

    Ah, OK, yes. Then I agree. If Trump succeeds in making the Dems identify with the woke wankiness of the Squad then I think he could easily win. Right now he is cleverly cornering the Democrats into doing just that.

    Trump remains an enigma. He seems barely sentient. He cannot talk coherently. If I met him in a supermarket I'd say he had Alzheimer's. Yet he displays great political cunning. Is it him, or his advisors, or just dumb luck?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,284
    edited July 2019
    FPT:

    Zephyr said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Since I have told you repeatedly what my views are and you insist on ignoring what I write, quite clearly, there is very little point in engaging with you.

    You and those you support are quite prepared for others to suffer. It is utterly contemptible.

    And HYUFD and myself are in the same party would you believe but for how long is debatable
    You have joined the Brexit Party?
    Not in a million years
    Then I doubt you and he are in the same party. Mentally, he appears to have moved considerably towards the fringe :)
    He has but there are many of us defending the moderate approach. (TM deal was ok)

    A no deal exit cuts that umbilical cord
    But it doesn’t stay no deal does it? It moves on from no deal to a deal not dissimilar to hard brexit, surely? So the main difference between no deal and hard brexit is a couple of months extra chaos (to a degree to be argued over) before both options result in pretty much the same destination?

    Explain why I have this wrong, because all those, and I can name you, who big up no deal are in fact making hard brexit deal sound like a compromise, when actually the destination is the same.
    Hang on.

    I do not big up no deal, I am appalled at the economic armageddon it would cause

    My position has always been TM deal or similar
    Armageddon - "a dramatic and catastrophic conflict, especially one seen as likely to destroy the world or the human race."

    Those ERGers they are the extremists.
    Don't be such a prissy tosser - I doubt there's any poster* on here who doesn't recognise that Big_G is using armageddon colloquially to 'mean a major disaster'.

    (*Apart from the Russian bot 'posters' maybe.)
    When are you going to defend 350million on the side of a bus as well they just meant a lot of money?
    Do you know what - if Leave had simply said 'we will stop sending a lot of money to the EU' that would have been fine. But if you cannot see the difference between that and quoting a specific fictitious figure I am not going to be able to help your ignorance.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    edited July 2019
    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,284
    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I bow to your superior experience :wink:
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    FPT:

    Zephyr said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Since I have told you repeatedly what my views are and you insist on ignoring what I write, quite clearly, there is very little point in engaging with you.

    You and those you support are quite prepared for others to suffer. It is utterly contemptible.

    And HYUFD and myself are in the same party would you believe but for how long is debatable
    You have joined the Brexit Party?
    Not in a million years
    Then I doubt you and he are in the same party. Mentally, he appears to have moved considerably towards the fringe :)
    He has but there are many of us defending the moderate approach. (TM deal was ok)

    A no deal exit cuts that umbilical cord
    But it doesn’t stay no deal does it? It moves on from no deal to a deal not dissimilar to hard brexit, surely? So the main difference between no deal and hard brexit is a couple of months extra chaos (to a degree to be argued over) before both options result in pretty much the same destination?

    Explain why I have this wrong, because all those, and I can name you, who big up no deal are in fact making hard brexit deal sound like a compromise, when actually the destination is the same.
    Hang on.

    I do not big up no deal, I am appalled at the economic armageddon it would cause

    My position has always been TM deal or similar
    Armageddon - "a dramatic and catastrophic conflict, especially one seen as likely to destroy the world or the human race."

    Those ERGers they are the extremists.
    Don't be such a prissy tosser - I doubt there's any poster* on here who doesn't recognise that Big_G is using armageddon colloquially to 'mean a major disaster'.

    (*Apart from the Russian bot 'posters' maybe.)
    When are you going to defend 350million on the side of a bus as well they just meant a lot of money?
    Do you know what - if Leave had simply said 'we will stop sending a lot of money to the EU' that would have been fine. But if you cannot see the difference between that and quoting a specific fictitious figure I am not going to be able to help your ignorance.
    Armageddon has a specific definition, no difference.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I’m going to regret asking why the flavouring aren’t I?
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    edited July 2019

    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I bow to your superior experience :wink:
    I used one. Once. By mistake. I was tupping some young lady with a gay flatmate and it was the only prophylactic to hand. Ouch.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,272
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I bow to your superior experience :wink:
    I used one. Once. By mistake. I was tupping some young lady with a gay flatmate and it was the only prophylactic to hand. Ouch.
    The ambiguity in this sentence is divine.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Charles said:

    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I’m going to regret asking why the flavouring aren’t I?
    Cause he's gone STRAWBERRY PINK. Duh!

    I love the way Duncan proclaims this has nothing to do with personal animosity, even as he personally quivers with europhile loathing for the BOZZA.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I bow to your superior experience :wink:
    Post of the day
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,272
    edited July 2019
    Fuck me, May's speech at her leaving drinks apparently concluded that the government's priority should be stopping Jeremy Corbyn from becoming PM. It's sheer madness. The priority isn't Brexit, isn't economic growth, isn't burning injustices, isn't resolving the various world crises or climate change. Nah it's jErEMY coRByN. I despair.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Swinson is a good choice for the Lib Dems. Young and energetic, telegenic and plausible.

    She will take a lot of votes off Remainery Labourites.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,284
    edited July 2019
    Byronic said:

    Charles said:

    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I’m going to regret asking why the flavouring aren’t I?
    Cause he's gone STRAWBERRY PINK. Duh!

    I love the way Duncan proclaims this has nothing to do with personal animosity, even as he personally quivers with europhile loathing for the BOZZA.
    I think @Charles might be asking why is an anal sex condom flavoured?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    FPT:
    Byronic said:

    AndyJS said:

    Could be 37 degrees on Thursday. Not looking forward to it.

    There's a possibility Thursday might break the UK heat record.

    I remember the day that record was set. It is the only time British weather has given me an intense and discomfiting headache - rather than just pissing me off, being wanky and irritating etc etc

    Yes I remember it was 10th August 2003. My family deliberately went to the west Wales coast that day because it was only 20 degrees there.

    Incidentally, I'm in a London hotel at the moment which is supposed to have air conditioning, but it only seems to be operating every so often, not all the time. Is this some sort of politically correct decision to save energy?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,586

    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I bow to your superior experience :wink:
    In the context, possibly not the best posture to adopt.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I bow to your superior experience :wink:
    I used one. Once. By mistake. I was tupping some young lady with a gay flatmate and it was the only prophylactic to hand. Ouch.
    Use of the term "tupping". Case rested.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    rcs1000 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    After we seize an Iranian vessel, basically as a favour to the US, if reports are to be believed...

    You're on your own, says Pompeo:
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/22/uk-must-look-after-its-own-ships-in-the-gulf-says-pompeo

    I thought we were enforcing EU sanctions, or have we seized another ship?
    It's hard to know for sure, as there are sanctions on Syria from the US (OFAC), the EU, and even some specific UK ones!

    As far I am aware there has been no specificity regarding exactly which sanctions the ship is supposed to have breached.

    (And for the record, I think @Luckyguy1983 has the best solution for this. We simply purchase the oil on board the ship for a market price and return it to the Iranians. The sanctions are therefore upheld, while not creating a hostage to fortune.)
    :) Appreciate that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,586
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I bow to your superior experience :wink:
    I used one. Once. By mistake. I was tupping some young lady with a gay flatmate and it was the only prophylactic to hand. Ouch.
    Did you toss for it, or share ?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,284
    Nigelb said:

    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I bow to your superior experience :wink:
    In the context, possibly not the best posture to adopt.

    Bugger me - I never thought of that!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    OnboardG1 said:

    Fuck me, May's speech at her leaving drinks apparently concluded that the government's priority should be stopping Jeremy Corbyn from becoming PM. It's sheer madness. The priority isn't Brexit, isn't economic growth, isn't burning injustices, isn't resolving the various world crises or climate change. Nah it's jErEMY coRByN. I despair.

    Then they should continue to ineptly and comically fail to bring Brexit to any noticeable progress. Of course, it will destroy the Tory Party as well. But, hey, priorities.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,284
    dixiedean said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Fuck me, May's speech at her leaving drinks apparently concluded that the government's priority should be stopping Jeremy Corbyn from becoming PM. It's sheer madness. The priority isn't Brexit, isn't economic growth, isn't burning injustices, isn't resolving the various world crises or climate change. Nah it's jErEMY coRByN. I despair.

    Then they should continue to ineptly and comically fail to bring Brexit to any noticeable progress. Of course, it will destroy the Tory Party as well. But, hey, priorities.
    Win-win
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    OnboardG1 said:

    Fuck me, May's speech at her leaving drinks apparently concluded that the government's priority should be stopping Jeremy Corbyn from becoming PM. It's sheer madness. The priority isn't Brexit, isn't economic growth, isn't burning injustices, isn't resolving the various world crises or climate change. Nah it's jErEMY coRByN. I despair.

    And the only reason anyone even takes the prospect that Corbyn might become PM seriously is because of Brexit. Personally I can’t see much in Corbyn that Johnson wouldn't propose if he thought it would help him personally.

  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I bow to your superior experience :wink:
    I used one. Once. By mistake. I was tupping some young lady with a gay flatmate and it was the only prophylactic to hand. Ouch.
    They are designed to be used with very efficient lubricant. I haven't used one, but I am a chemist and did a devolpment project once on the lubricant, which was exceptionally slippery. After working on the bench my fingers were so lubricious I couldn't pick up my pen to write notes in my lab book.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    FPT:

    Zephyr said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Since I have told you repeatedly what my views are and you insist on ignoring what I write, quite clearly, there is very little point in engaging with you.

    You and those you support are quite prepared for others to suffer. It is utterly contemptible.

    And HYUFD and myself are in the same party would you believe but for how long is debatable
    You have joined the Brexit Party?
    Not in a million years
    Then I doubt you and he are in the same party. Mentally, he appears to have moved considerably towards the fringe :)
    He has but there are many of us defending the moderate approach. (TM deal was ok)

    A no deal exit cuts that umbilical cord
    But it doesn’t stay no deal does it? It moves on from no deal to a deal not dissimilar to hard brexit, surely? So the main difference between no deal and hard brexit is a couple of months extra chaos (to a degree to be argued over) before both options result in pretty much the same destination?

    Explain why I have this wrong, because all those, and I can name you, who big up no deal are in fact making hard brexit deal sound like a compromise, when actually the destination is the same.
    Hang on.

    I do not big up no deal, I am appalled at the economic armageddon it would cause

    My position has always been TM deal or similar
    Armageddon - "a dramatic and catastrophic conflict, especially one seen as likely to destroy the world or the human race."

    Those ERGers they are the extremists.
    Don't be such a prissy tosser - I doubt there's any poster* on here who doesn't recognise that Big_G is using armageddon colloquially to 'mean a major disaster'.

    (*Apart from the Russian bot 'posters' maybe.)
    When are you going to defend 350million on the side of a bus as well they just meant a lot of money?
    Do you know what - if Leave had simply said 'we will stop sending a lot of money to the EU' that would have been fine. But if you cannot see the difference between that and quoting a specific fictitious figure I am not going to be able to help your ignorance.
    But the figure wasn't fictitious it came from the government's pink book.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I bow to your superior experience :wink:
    I used one. Once. By mistake. I was tupping some young lady with a gay flatmate and it was the only prophylactic to hand. Ouch.
    They are designed to be used with very efficient lubricant. I haven't used one, but I am a chemist and did a devolpment project once on the lubricant, which was exceptionally slippery. After working on the bench my fingers were so lubricious I couldn't pick up my pen to write notes in my lab book.
    Proof that PB really does have resident expert in every conceivable field...
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    What would the Tory Party do if Corbyn dropped dead tomorrow? Disband? Their crowning achievement delivered?
  • ZephyrZephyr Posts: 438
    Byronic said:

    Swinson is a good choice for the Lib Dems. Young and energetic, telegenic and plausible.

    She will take a lot of votes off Remainery Labourites.

    What about the argument, unlike protest vote elections like EU and councils, and the 2016 brexit ref, GE isn’t a vote for what you want but out of fear and hatred, to vote to kick out or keep out of government, hence same reason current GE polls are gibberish?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236

    Byronic said:

    Charles said:

    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I’m going to regret asking why the flavouring aren’t I?
    Cause he's gone STRAWBERRY PINK. Duh!

    I love the way Duncan proclaims this has nothing to do with personal animosity, even as he personally quivers with europhile loathing for the BOZZA.
    I think @Charles might be asking why is an anal sex condom flavoured?
    Indeed. The anus has many notable features but taste buds aren't one of them.

    For reasons that should not need explaining.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Zephyr said:

    Byronic said:

    Swinson is a good choice for the Lib Dems. Young and energetic, telegenic and plausible.

    She will take a lot of votes off Remainery Labourites.

    What about the argument, unlike protest vote elections like EU and councils, and the 2016 brexit ref, GE isn’t a vote for what you want but out of fear and hatred, to vote to kick out or keep out of government, hence same reason current GE polls are gibberish?
    I don't even understand that. I'm just saying she's a good choice. And she is.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    viewcode said:

    Byronic said:

    Charles said:

    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I’m going to regret asking why the flavouring aren’t I?
    Cause he's gone STRAWBERRY PINK. Duh!

    I love the way Duncan proclaims this has nothing to do with personal animosity, even as he personally quivers with europhile loathing for the BOZZA.
    I think @Charles might be asking why is an anal sex condom flavoured?
    Indeed. The anus has many notable features but taste buds aren't one of them.

    For reasons that should not need explaining.
    Your sex life is limited, isn't it? There are various ways of putting on a condom, some more fun, and flavoursome, than others.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236
    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    ...and while I'm here, the whole point of having specially-strengthened anal sex condoms (Trojans et al) is that they *don't* pop under pressure. That's the point of them. If you had a vaginal sex condoms then yes, but that's the wrong end of the stick. So to speak... :)
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-bidens-media-monopoly-coming-to-an-end/ Bernie doing a bit better at getting media coverage.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Tony Blair on newsnight proving he is still a master. Nailing all the key issues.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236
    Byronic said:

    viewcode said:

    Byronic said:

    Charles said:

    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I’m going to regret asking why the flavouring aren’t I?
    Cause he's gone STRAWBERRY PINK. Duh!

    I love the way Duncan proclaims this has nothing to do with personal animosity, even as he personally quivers with europhile loathing for the BOZZA.
    I think @Charles might be asking why is an anal sex condom flavoured?
    Indeed. The anus has many notable features but taste buds aren't one of them.

    For reasons that should not need explaining.
    Your sex life is limited, isn't it? There are various ways of putting on a condom, some more fun, and flavoursome, than others.
    If the condom's for anal sex then it's usually best not to suck it, usually before, and - regardless of what porn you may have watched - *definitely* not afterwards.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,590
    dixiedean said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I bow to your superior experience :wink:
    I used one. Once. By mistake. I was tupping some young lady with a gay flatmate and it was the only prophylactic to hand. Ouch.
    Use of the term "tupping". Case rested.
    I recall someone using that quaint phrase over the years too.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    TOPPING said:

    Tony Blair on newsnight proving he is still a master. Nailing all the key issues.

    He comes across as a weird mixture of wise, sinister, clever, and tragic.

    His attempt to deny his lack of democracy re a new referendum was pathetic. His eyes kept flicking to the right: a tell. He knows he is lying. He knows a second vote is utterly fraudulent and immoral.

    But his analysis of the present political situation is acute. I agree on that.

    The overall feeling, tho, is of a fine political brain broken by his own grave errors, principally Iraq, but also his pursuit of dirty money ever since.

    He is quintessentially tragic. He would make a fine subject for a Shakespearian play. Or movie.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1153417336701018113

    Blimey. Maybe Boris will be the one who finally does something about social care.

    Now that's got me interested...
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I bow to your superior experience :wink:
    I used one. Once. By mistake. I was tupping some young lady with a gay flatmate and it was the only prophylactic to hand. Ouch.
    We really did not need to know that.
  • ZephyrZephyr Posts: 438
    Steve Bannon, [Jesus Christ!]
    Boris Johnson and Jamie Wharton,
    Jo Johnson and on to Priti Patel.

    Oli Dowden, Lee Cain,
    Lyton Crosby, and Carrie Symonds,
    Sajid Javid,
    and Michael his best mate Gove

    Grant Shapps, Dominic Raab
    Jacob Rees-Mogg and Geoffrey Cox
    James Cleverly Nigel Adams
    Gavin Williamson

    Duncan Smith and Matty Hancock,
    Mark Fulbrook, and kit the malt house
    liz truss, And HYUFD too.

    See the names. Know the politics? let me describe. Now In the wood the stag is strong, the flower so firm at the stem; we must gather together to greet the storm, tomorrow belongs to them.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Tomorrow's front pages make extremely grim viewing for Tom Watson and he's eviscerated inside.

    I wonder if this will be the final nail in the proverbial. If so, quite an ironic way for him to be toppled.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tuesdays-national-newspaper-front-pages-11768572
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    dixiedean said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I bow to your superior experience :wink:
    I used one. Once. By mistake. I was tupping some young lady with a gay flatmate and it was the only prophylactic to hand. Ouch.
    Use of the term "tupping". Case rested.
    I recall someone using that quaint phrase over the years too.
    For sheep. Not women.

    Has this thread got confused with @HerdyShepherd's Twitter account, perchance?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,236

    dixiedean said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I bow to your superior experience :wink:
    I used one. Once. By mistake. I was tupping some young lady with a gay flatmate and it was the only prophylactic to hand. Ouch.
    Use of the term "tupping". Case rested.
    I recall someone using that quaint phrase over the years too.
    Oh you know, whatshisface, thingummyjig. Did the thing.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Tomorrow's front pages make extremely grim viewing for Tom Watson and he's eviscerated inside.

    I wonder if this will be the final nail in the proverbial. If so, quite an ironic way for him to be toppled.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tuesdays-national-newspaper-front-pages-11768572

    I'd pay good money to see a seagull fly off with a baby to be fair.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1153417336701018113

    Blimey. Maybe Boris will be the one who finally does something about social care.

    Now that's got me interested...

    Just like May had that fine speech about dealing with burning injustices and helping the JAMS etc at the start of her premiership.

    Boris has one job to do - sort out Brexit. That is the only thing he and his government will be judged on.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Pulpstar said:

    Tomorrow's front pages make extremely grim viewing for Tom Watson and he's eviscerated inside.

    I wonder if this will be the final nail in the proverbial. If so, quite an ironic way for him to be toppled.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tuesdays-national-newspaper-front-pages-11768572

    I'd pay good money to see a seagull fly off with a baby to be fair.
    You would? That's..... odd.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    edited July 2019
    Sad, but not surprising to see the hot take from the VIP abuse trial is "Witch Hunt." Are we supposed to conclude that wealthy, powerful men don't abuse? And any suggestion they do ought to be discounted?
    Cos that's how Savile and Cyril Smith managed it for so long.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    Tomorrow's front pages make extremely grim viewing for Tom Watson and he's eviscerated inside.

    I wonder if this will be the final nail in the proverbial. If so, quite an ironic way for him to be toppled.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tuesdays-national-newspaper-front-pages-11768572

    Tom Watson hasn't shown the greatest judgement over 'Nick' and his pursuit and enabling of Gordon Brown having a coronation by giving Christmas (or was it birthday) presents for his children.

    Maybe he isn't a good judge of people or gets blinded by the vision of political advantage over people he sees as his opponents.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    dixiedean said:

    Sad, but not surprising to see the hot take from the VIP abuse trial is "Witch Hunt." Are we supposed to conclude that wealthy, powerful men don't abuse? And any suggestion they do ought to be discounted?
    Cos that's how Savile and Cyril Smith managed it for so long.

    Why do you focus on the wealthy and powerful aspect of it? Surely it doesn't matter what "type" of person does it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,590
    Cyclefree said:

    dixiedean said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I bow to your superior experience :wink:
    I used one. Once. By mistake. I was tupping some young lady with a gay flatmate and it was the only prophylactic to hand. Ouch.
    Use of the term "tupping". Case rested.
    I recall someone using that quaint phrase over the years too.
    For sheep. Not women.

    Has this thread got confused with @HerdyShepherd's Twitter account, perchance?
    I was recalling someone who used that (Herefordian, I believe) term several times on PB.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    dixiedean said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Alan Duncan has gone so pink with personal rage he is in danger of popping like a blown up strawberry-flavoured specially-strengthened anal sex condom.

    I bow to your superior experience :wink:
    I used one. Once. By mistake. I was tupping some young lady with a gay flatmate and it was the only prophylactic to hand. Ouch.
    Use of the term "tupping". Case rested.
    I recall someone using that quaint phrase over the years too.
    Shakespeare. Iago to Brabantio:

    Even now, now, very now, an old black ram. Is tupping your white ewe.

    (The old black ram is Othello, and the white ewe is Desdemona, although it's fake news).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1153417336701018113

    Blimey. Maybe Boris will be the one who finally does something about social care.

    Now that's got me interested...

    Lots of PMs have some great intentions. He won't get the chance if he cannot deal with the Remainiac Grievers and the Brexiteer die hards first. I'd welcome the chance he will, but it won't be easy to get past those two bunch of extremists.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Tomorrow's front pages make extremely grim viewing for Tom Watson and he's eviscerated inside.

    I wonder if this will be the final nail in the proverbial. If so, quite an ironic way for him to be toppled.

    https://news.sky.com/story/tuesdays-national-newspaper-front-pages-11768572

    That one about Tory rebels is an interesting one, since who the rebels are changes on the policy, so if he did ditch no deal the 'rebels' would be demanding he put no deal back on the table.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    dixiedean said:

    Sad, but not surprising to see the hot take from the VIP abuse trial is "Witch Hunt." Are we supposed to conclude that wealthy, powerful men don't abuse? And any suggestion they do ought to be discounted?
    Cos that's how Savile and Cyril Smith managed it for so long.

    No, we're supposed to conclude that this particular nonsense was a witch hunt, as it patently was, from beginning to end. It absolutely beggars belief that the police took the nonsense seriously, blew between £2m and £4m on it (so much for the fiction that the police budget is stretched), and allowed the obviously innocent to be vilified.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    AndyJS said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sad, but not surprising to see the hot take from the VIP abuse trial is "Witch Hunt." Are we supposed to conclude that wealthy, powerful men don't abuse? And any suggestion they do ought to be discounted?
    Cos that's how Savile and Cyril Smith managed it for so long.

    Why do you focus on the wealthy and powerful aspect of it? Surely it doesn't matter what "type" of person does it.
    Because if they weren't wealthy or powerful, it wouldn't be front page news. Part-time shelf stacker from Aberdeen wrongly accused doesn't cut it, I'm afraid.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Still, it's not all bad news. Look at the third story on the FT front page.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    dixiedean said:

    Sad, but not surprising to see the hot take from the VIP abuse trial is "Witch Hunt." Are we supposed to conclude that wealthy, powerful men don't abuse? And any suggestion they do ought to be discounted?
    Cos that's how Savile and Cyril Smith managed it for so long.

    No, we're supposed to conclude that this particular nonsense was a witch hunt, as it patently was, from beginning to end. It absolutely beggars belief that the police took the nonsense seriously, blew between £2m and £4m on it (so much for the fiction that the police budget is stretched), and allowed the obviously innocent to be vilified.
    Looking back it does seem utterly insane. A squalid waste of time and money. I quite like Tom Watson but this will stick to him.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited July 2019

    dixiedean said:

    Sad, but not surprising to see the hot take from the VIP abuse trial is "Witch Hunt." Are we supposed to conclude that wealthy, powerful men don't abuse? And any suggestion they do ought to be discounted?
    Cos that's how Savile and Cyril Smith managed it for so long.

    No, we're supposed to conclude that this particular nonsense was a witch hunt, as it patently was, from beginning to end. It absolutely beggars belief that the police took the nonsense seriously, blew between £2m and £4m on it (so much for the fiction that the police budget is stretched), and allowed the obviously innocent to be vilified.
    I recall a report from a high court judge on some of the case, and it was staggering how individuals within it had essentially decided to reverse the burden of proof and expect people to prove themselves innocent so keen were they to simply believe accusations as true, and say so, rather than treat any accusation as serious and investigate it properly. The way the police in Wiltshire, my county, attempted to spin a determination that they would want to question Heath as basically evidence of wrongdoing to save face was pathetic.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Byronic said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sad, but not surprising to see the hot take from the VIP abuse trial is "Witch Hunt." Are we supposed to conclude that wealthy, powerful men don't abuse? And any suggestion they do ought to be discounted?
    Cos that's how Savile and Cyril Smith managed it for so long.

    No, we're supposed to conclude that this particular nonsense was a witch hunt, as it patently was, from beginning to end. It absolutely beggars belief that the police took the nonsense seriously, blew between £2m and £4m on it (so much for the fiction that the police budget is stretched), and allowed the obviously innocent to be vilified.
    Looking back it does seem utterly insane. A squalid waste of time and money. I quite like Tom Watson but this will stick to him.
    Not just looking back. It was clearly utterly insane from the start. Obviously one had to be careful what one said at the time, but, really...
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    dixiedean said:

    Sad, but not surprising to see the hot take from the VIP abuse trial is "Witch Hunt." Are we supposed to conclude that wealthy, powerful men don't abuse? And any suggestion they do ought to be discounted?
    Cos that's how Savile and Cyril Smith managed it for so long.

    No, we're supposed to conclude that this particular nonsense was a witch hunt, as it patently was, from beginning to end. It absolutely beggars belief that the police took the nonsense seriously, blew between £2m and £4m on it (so much for the fiction that the police budget is stretched), and allowed the obviously innocent to be vilified.
    We have spent more than that looking for Madeleine McCann (about £12 million to date)

    Our police and their political masters make some seriously odd decisions
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    dixiedean said:

    Sad, but not surprising to see the hot take from the VIP abuse trial is "Witch Hunt." Are we supposed to conclude that wealthy, powerful men don't abuse? And any suggestion they do ought to be discounted?
    Cos that's how Savile and Cyril Smith managed it for so long.

    No, we're supposed to conclude that this particular nonsense was a witch hunt, as it patently was, from beginning to end. It absolutely beggars belief that the police took the nonsense seriously, blew between £2m and £4m on it (so much for the fiction that the police budget is stretched), and allowed the obviously innocent to be vilified.
    The police had a policy of believing the victim.

    The policy (and police) were too dumb (or too keen to be involved in a high profile and political case) to realise that believing a victim is intrinsically good, but before you do it you should make the inquiries to establish that there is a victim to be believed.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    dixiedean said:

    Sad, but not surprising to see the hot take from the VIP abuse trial is "Witch Hunt." Are we supposed to conclude that wealthy, powerful men don't abuse? And any suggestion they do ought to be discounted?
    Cos that's how Savile and Cyril Smith managed it for so long.

    No, we're supposed to conclude that this particular nonsense was a witch hunt, as it patently was, from beginning to end. It absolutely beggars belief that the police took the nonsense seriously, blew between £2m and £4m on it (so much for the fiction that the police budget is stretched), and allowed the obviously innocent to be vilified.
    We have spent more than that looking for Madeleine McCann (about £12 million to date)

    Our police and their political masters make some seriously odd decisions
    We are their political masters. If people could be bothered to vote for their local PCCs.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    It's not just about Brexit.

    If there's a GE, Boris needs attractive eye catching policies to talk about.

    Surely the lesson was learned in 2017 - it's no good banging on about Brexit and nothing else for a whole GE campaign.

    And it looks as if Boris has got the message.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Byronic said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sad, but not surprising to see the hot take from the VIP abuse trial is "Witch Hunt." Are we supposed to conclude that wealthy, powerful men don't abuse? And any suggestion they do ought to be discounted?
    Cos that's how Savile and Cyril Smith managed it for so long.

    No, we're supposed to conclude that this particular nonsense was a witch hunt, as it patently was, from beginning to end. It absolutely beggars belief that the police took the nonsense seriously, blew between £2m and £4m on it (so much for the fiction that the police budget is stretched), and allowed the obviously innocent to be vilified.
    Looking back it does seem utterly insane. A squalid waste of time and money. I quite like Tom Watson but this will stick to him.
    Not just looking back. It was clearly utterly insane from the start. Obviously one had to be careful what one said at the time, but, really...
    The lesson I draw is that the human proclivity for mass hysteria/hallucination/derangement - the madness of crowds - has not remotely gone away, it just assumes different forms in different times.

    How does it apply to Brexit, is the question. Who are the truly deluded, and which side is struck with ideological ergotism? It is very hard to say. Perhaps both.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840

    dixiedean said:

    Sad, but not surprising to see the hot take from the VIP abuse trial is "Witch Hunt." Are we supposed to conclude that wealthy, powerful men don't abuse? And any suggestion they do ought to be discounted?
    Cos that's how Savile and Cyril Smith managed it for so long.

    No, we're supposed to conclude that this particular nonsense was a witch hunt, as it patently was, from beginning to end. It absolutely beggars belief that the police took the nonsense seriously, blew between £2m and £4m on it (so much for the fiction that the police budget is stretched), and allowed the obviously innocent to be vilified.
    Well. You and I can see that. However, I maintain it is dangerous. We've gone from ignoring and disbelieving survivors automatically, to giving dangerous over credence in this case.
    But we don't want to go back to the status quo ante.
    The Police seem notoriously unable to use judgement.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    MikeL said:

    It's not just about Brexit.

    If there's a GE, Boris needs attractive eye catching policies to talk about.

    Surely the lesson was learned in 2017 - it's no good banging on about Brexit and nothing else for a whole GE campaign.

    And it looks as if Boris has got the message.

    I expect Boris to shamelessly steal some of the bits of Corbyn's manifesto that proved popular.....
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    TOPPING said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sad, but not surprising to see the hot take from the VIP abuse trial is "Witch Hunt." Are we supposed to conclude that wealthy, powerful men don't abuse? And any suggestion they do ought to be discounted?
    Cos that's how Savile and Cyril Smith managed it for so long.

    No, we're supposed to conclude that this particular nonsense was a witch hunt, as it patently was, from beginning to end. It absolutely beggars belief that the police took the nonsense seriously, blew between £2m and £4m on it (so much for the fiction that the police budget is stretched), and allowed the obviously innocent to be vilified.
    We have spent more than that looking for Madeleine McCann (about £12 million to date)

    Our police and their political masters make some seriously odd decisions
    We are their political masters. If people could be bothered to vote for their local PCCs.
    The money for the McCann case has been signed off by the Home Office

    An utter waste of money
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    edited July 2019
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sad, but not surprising to see the hot take from the VIP abuse trial is "Witch Hunt." Are we supposed to conclude that wealthy, powerful men don't abuse? And any suggestion they do ought to be discounted?
    Cos that's how Savile and Cyril Smith managed it for so long.

    No, we're supposed to conclude that this particular nonsense was a witch hunt, as it patently was, from beginning to end. It absolutely beggars belief that the police took the nonsense seriously, blew between £2m and £4m on it (so much for the fiction that the police budget is stretched), and allowed the obviously innocent to be vilified.
    Looking back it does seem utterly insane. A squalid waste of time and money. I quite like Tom Watson but this will stick to him.
    Not just looking back. It was clearly utterly insane from the start. Obviously one had to be careful what one said at the time, but, really...
    The lesson I draw is that the human proclivity for mass hysteria/hallucination/derangement - the madness of crowds - has not remotely gone away, it just assumes different forms in different times.

    How does it apply to Brexit, is the question. Who are the truly deluded, and which side is struck with ideological ergotism? It is very hard to say. Perhaps both.
    Nah. Piece of piss to tell.
    It's the other side obviously.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,590
    MikeL said:

    It's not just about Brexit.

    If there's a GE, Boris needs attractive eye catching policies to talk about.

    Surely the lesson was learned in 2017 - it's no good banging on about Brexit and nothing else for a whole GE campaign.

    And it looks as if Boris has got the message.

    I think you will find it is.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Well, there's a story to inspire confidence in the system.

    South Africa's highest court has ruled that a top state official charged with investigating corruption lied under oath and acted in bad faith.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-49074492
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited July 2019
    The plod / CPS have done a terrible job in some of these cases of "VIP" abuse.

    The bloke out of Coronation Street, when it got to trial it beggared belief that the plod hadn't done some of the simplest of checks, like was he on set on a particular day, did he ever own or have access to cars and houses that those making allegations claimed he used. It soon became clear their stories just couldn't be true and in fact in one case it wasn't even the lady making the claims it was her partner talking over her to tell the story in the interviews (which is obviously a total no no).

    Also remember Rolf Harris probably would have been cleared if a member of the public didn't write to the court to provide a crucial bit of evidence in relation to attendance at an event. Before that point, Harris claimed he wasn't there and the police / CPS provided no evidence he was.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2019
    Byronic said:

    The lesson I draw is that the human proclivity for mass hysteria/hallucination/derangement - the madness of crowds - has not remotely gone away, it just assumes different forms in different times.
    ..

    Yes, absolutely. The Popish Plot keeps being repeated.

    Still, you might expect the police to be at least a little bit immune to the hysteria. Harvey Proctor's 2015 press statement was absolutely devastating. Who can read this bit, without immediately realising how bonkers the police were in this case?

    I was asked if I could recognise images of the pen knife mentioned earlier. It was suggested it was Edward Heath who persuaded me not to castrate “Nick” with it. I was obviously so persuaded by Mr Heath’s intervention that I placed the pen knife in “Nick’s” pocket ready for him to present it to the Metropolitan police over 30 years later as “evidence”.

    https://theneedleblog.wordpress.com/2015/08/25/full-statement-of-harvey-proctor/
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    dixiedean said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sad, but not surprising to see the hot take from the VIP abuse trial is "Witch Hunt." Are we supposed to conclude that wealthy, powerful men don't abuse? And any suggestion they do ought to be discounted?
    Cos that's how Savile and Cyril Smith managed it for so long.

    No, we're supposed to conclude that this particular nonsense was a witch hunt, as it patently was, from beginning to end. It absolutely beggars belief that the police took the nonsense seriously, blew between £2m and £4m on it (so much for the fiction that the police budget is stretched), and allowed the obviously innocent to be vilified.
    Looking back it does seem utterly insane. A squalid waste of time and money. I quite like Tom Watson but this will stick to him.
    Not just looking back. It was clearly utterly insane from the start. Obviously one had to be careful what one said at the time, but, really...
    The lesson I draw is that the human proclivity for mass hysteria/hallucination/derangement - the madness of crowds - has not remotely gone away, it just assumes different forms in different times.

    How does it apply to Brexit, is the question. Who are the truly deluded, and which side is struck with ideological ergotism? It is very hard to say. Perhaps both.
    Nah. Piece of piss to tell.
    You're so fucking boring. Look at Blair tonight, trying to justify having a second referendum without enacting the first. He looked totally crazy - even more than normal.

    We need to Do Brexit. Or we destroy our democracy (which is worth more than 10 points off GDP). Then we can revisit the decision if you guys get the votes to do that, in a general election. You won't. For a long time.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    MikeL said:

    It's not just about Brexit.

    If there's a GE, Boris needs attractive eye catching policies to talk about.

    Surely the lesson was learned in 2017 - it's no good banging on about Brexit and nothing else for a whole GE campaign.

    And it looks as if Boris has got the message.

    I think you will find it is.
    His best hope of survival is to gain support for bold, popular and innovative policies that are non brexit issues that do bring the party together.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,590
    philiph said:

    MikeL said:

    It's not just about Brexit.

    If there's a GE, Boris needs attractive eye catching policies to talk about.

    Surely the lesson was learned in 2017 - it's no good banging on about Brexit and nothing else for a whole GE campaign.

    And it looks as if Boris has got the message.

    I think you will find it is.
    His best hope of survival is to gain support for bold, popular and innovative policies that are non brexit issues that do bring the party together.
    I am trying to work out how he buries Brexit in this avalanche of social policy and unfettered public spending. Brexit will be his undoing or his salvation.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    edited July 2019
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    No, we're supposed to conclude that this particular nonsense was a witch hunt, as it patently was, from beginning to end. It absolutely beggars belief that the police took the nonsense seriously, blew between £2m and £4m on it (so much for the fiction that the police budget is stretched), and allowed the obviously innocent to be vilified.
    Well. You and I can see that. However, I maintain it is dangerous. We've gone from ignoring and disbelieving survivors automatically, to giving dangerous over credence in this case.
    But we don't want to go back to the status quo ante.
    The Police seem notoriously unable to use judgement.
    This is not difficult stuff.

    I had to deal with serious allegations every day of the week. What any competent investigator does is the following:-

    - You get an allegation.
    - You take it seriously. This does not mean saying that you believe the person making the allegation, never mind announcing this to the world or telling people that the accused is a terrible person. What it does mean is that you commit to doing a proper thorough investigation into the allegation.
    - You do a proper investigation: interview the accuser, check everything out that he or she says; investigate the allegation from every possible angle; check everything; look for corroboration; look for stuff that contradicts what is being alleged; follow up every lead; widen the scope if necessary to come at the issue from a different perspective; test, test, test etc;
    - you do not allow yourself to be influenced by what you think of the accuser or your sympathy or the gravity of what is alleged or public reaction or any other small "p" political shenanigans. It is essential that you approach this independently and professionally. You are not there to play games.
    - when you have done all you reasonably can, you make a decision or recommendation and verify / check / confirm this with others. Spell out what is fact and what is your judgment and the basis for it. Be prepared for others to challenge what you have found and your findings.
    - then write a proper report and pass the matter over to those who take the prosecution or disciplinary forward if that is the decision.

    This is hard to do well but is the day-to-day job of any investigator, police force etc. If you can't or won't do this you have no business doing that job.

    Why the police behaved like such boobies I don't know. I'm guessing it was a combination of panic / political arse-licking / desire to be associated with a high profile case to make a name for themselves / plain bloody incompetence and second-rateness.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    Byronic said:

    dixiedean said:

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    dixiedean said:

    Sad, but not surprising to see the hot take from the VIP abuse trial is "Witch Hunt." Are we supposed to conclude that wealthy, powerful men don't abuse? And any suggestion they do ought to be discounted?
    Cos that's how Savile and Cyril Smith managed it for so long.

    No, we're supposed to conclude that this particular nonsense was a witch hunt, as it patently was, from beginning to end. It absolutely beggars belief that the police took the nonsense seriously, blew between £2m and £4m on it (so much for the fiction that the police budget is stretched), and allowed the obviously innocent to be vilified.
    Looking back it does seem utterly insane. A squalid waste of time and money. I quite like Tom Watson but this will stick to him.
    Not just looking back. It was clearly utterly insane from the start. Obviously one had to be careful what one said at the time, but, really...
    The lesson I draw is that the human proclivity for mass hysteria/hallucination/derangement - the madness of crowds - has not remotely gone away, it just assumes different forms in different times.

    How does it apply to Brexit, is the question. Who are the truly deluded, and which side is struck with ideological ergotism? It is very hard to say. Perhaps both.
    Nah. Piece of piss to tell.
    You're so fucking boring. Look at Blair tonight, trying to justify having a second referendum without enacting the first. He looked totally crazy - even more than normal.

    We need to Do Brexit. Or we destroy our democracy (which is worth more than 10 points off GDP). Then we can revisit the decision if you guys get the votes to do that, in a general election. You won't. For a long time.
    You missed my edit. Which was my fault, as I pressed post comment too early. Chill, man.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Cyclefree said:


    ...
    Why the police behaved like such boobies I don't know. I'm guessing it was a combination of panic / political arse-licking / desire to be associated with a high profile case to make a name for themselves / plain bloody incompetence and second-rateness.

    Or, most worryingly, anti-Tory prejudice which made them want to believe it. That clearly was why Tom Watson and the Exaro journalists were taken in by the nonsense.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    philiph said:

    MikeL said:

    It's not just about Brexit.

    If there's a GE, Boris needs attractive eye catching policies to talk about.

    Surely the lesson was learned in 2017 - it's no good banging on about Brexit and nothing else for a whole GE campaign.

    And it looks as if Boris has got the message.

    I think you will find it is.
    His best hope of survival is to gain support for bold, popular and innovative policies that are non brexit issues that do bring the party together.
    I am trying to work out how he buries Brexit in this avalanche of social policy and unfettered public spending. Brexit will be his undoing or his salvation.
    Quite. It might have worked for May (although possibly not, since everyone was told the reason for the election was Brexit), but she had a lot more time to play with. He either has to come up with something new, and fast, or else ensure no deal gets through against the wishes of the Commons to prevent it by changing the law somehow, or else break his word and delay. It is great he, or his advisers, are thinking about other policies, but he is the one who has committed, unequivocally, to a leaving date which is not far off, and whether an election is before or after that date what he is doing to get us out by then will be critical to a great many.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    Cyclefree said:


    ...
    Why the police behaved like such boobies I don't know. I'm guessing it was a combination of panic / political arse-licking / desire to be associated with a high profile case to make a name for themselves / plain bloody incompetence and second-rateness.

    Or, most worryingly, anti-Tory prejudice which made them want to believe it. That clearly was why Tom Watson and the Exaro journalists were taken in by the nonsense.
    It was terribly old how Tom managed to miss all the allegations against politicians in his own party....as the nonce-finder general you would have thought he would have been all over it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    Cyclefree said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    No, we're supposed to conclude that this particular nonsense was a witch hunt, as it patently was, from beginning to end. It absolutely beggars belief that the police took the nonsense seriously, blew between £2m and £4m on it (so much for the fiction that the police budget is stretched), and allowed the obviously innocent to be vilified.
    Well. You and I can see that. However, I maintain it is dangerous. We've gone from ignoring and disbelieving survivors automatically, to giving dangerous over credence in this case.
    But we don't want to go back to the status quo ante.
    The Police seem notoriously unable to use judgement.
    This is not difficult stuff.

    I had to deal with serious allegations every day of the week. What any competent investigator does is the following:-

    - You get an allegation.
    - You take it seriously. This does not mean saying that you believe the person making the allegation, never mind announcing this to the world or telling people that the accused is a terrible person. What it does mean is that you commit to doing a proper thorough investigation into the allegation.
    - You do a proper investigation: interview the accuser, check everything out that he or she says; investigate the allegation from every possible angle; check everything; look for corroboration; look for stuff that contradicts what is being alleged; follow up every lead; widen the scope if necessary to come at the issue from a different perspective; test, test, test etc;
    - you do not allow yourself to be influenced by what you think of the accuser or your sympathy or the gravity of what is alleged or public reaction or any other small "p" political shenanigans. It is essential that you approach this independently and professionally. You are not there to play games.
    - when you have done all you reasonably can, you make a decision or recommendation and verify / check / confirm this with others. Spell out what is fact and what is your judgment and the basis for it. Be prepared for others to challenge what you have found and your findings.
    - then write a proper report and pass the matter over to those who take the prosecution or disciplinary forward if that is the decision.

    This is hard to do well but is the day-to-day job of any investigator, police force etc. If you can't or won't do this you have no business doing that job.

    Why the police behaved like such boobies I don't know. I'm guessing it was a combination of panic / political arse-licking / desire to be associated with a high profile case to make a name for themselves / plain bloody incompetence and second-rateness.
    A desire to catch someone high profile, having had Savile reported numerous times with no enquiries made.
    Natural, but unprofessional.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Night night, pbeebies. Play nicely nicely.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:


    ...
    Why the police behaved like such boobies I don't know. I'm guessing it was a combination of panic / political arse-licking / desire to be associated with a high profile case to make a name for themselves / plain bloody incompetence and second-rateness.

    Or, most worryingly, anti-Tory prejudice which made them want to believe it. That clearly was why Tom Watson and the Exaro journalists were taken in by the nonsense.
    Indeed. I had included that in my "political arse-licking" category.

    People generally want to believe what they would like to be true. (See Brexit, the City and much of politics these days).

    It takes a ruthless mind to determine facts first and then come to an opinion. Not many of us about.

    People at work used to say I was scary and I came to the conclusion that it was because I was very good indeed at doing that in a work context, that this was a rarity in the world of finance (where self-delusion rules about 99% of the time) and therefore this was unusual and frightening.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    Cyclefree said:


    ...
    Why the police behaved like such boobies I don't know. I'm guessing it was a combination of panic / political arse-licking / desire to be associated with a high profile case to make a name for themselves / plain bloody incompetence and second-rateness.

    Or, most worryingly, anti-Tory prejudice which made them want to believe it. That clearly was why Tom Watson and the Exaro journalists were taken in by the nonsense.
    Tom Watson has very acute Paedar, not so keen Oi Vaydar.....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Cation seems completely fake. For one thing May remains PM until Wednesday.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    Does anyone give a f now what May is publishing?

    https://twitter.com/BBCHughPym/status/1153419347156766720
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    European Commission rules that UK dwelling EU citizens can still hold .eu domains after Brexit

    https://betanews.com/2019/07/21/eu-domains-post-brexit/

    Is this common requirement in other countries / regions? When I have bought domains in the past, I don't remember ever been asked to prove my citizenship.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,926
    Byronic said:

    Toms said:

    Byronic said:

    Toms said:

    alex. said:

    Toms said:

    Often, I hear the LDs scorned by tories and laborites for being uncommitted opportunists and generally wishy-washy. But, unlike the aforementioned, the LDs stance on brexit has been clear from the start. I'd like to see the Greens and LDs take over, starting with this country.

    Problem with the Libdems is that they’ve so much seen their salvation coming from Brexit that they are in danger of being defined as a single issue party.
    Maybe so. That makes me think of the Democrats: By his racist attacks on those four congresswomen he may be trying, monumentally hypocritically, to bend public perception of the Dems as somewhat extreme.

    Incidentally, these two clips show two differing approaches to morality, both by Republicans:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqLxxbjVG_k

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdKEbyNYbFU
    The Squad - certainly Ilhan Omar - actually ARE quite extreme. Omar has had to make multiple apologies for her anti Semitism. She's genuinely nasty.

    Trump is an oaf and a git but he chooses good enemies.

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/3/6/18251639/ilhan-omar-israel-anti-semitism-jews
    Yes they are somewhat extreme. But what I'm saying is that Trump may be trying to use them as representing the Dems as a whole. If the Dems fall for that they may lose. They should find someone who seems steady, normal, and sane.
    Ah, OK, yes. Then I agree. If Trump succeeds in making the Dems identify with the woke wankiness of the Squad then I think he could easily win. Right now he is cleverly cornering the Democrats into doing just that.

    Trump remains an enigma. He seems barely sentient. He cannot talk coherently. If I met him in a supermarket I'd say he had Alzheimer's. Yet he displays great political cunning. Is it him, or his advisors, or just dumb luck?
    One giant creep for mankind.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    Cation seems completely fake. For one thing May remains PM until Wednesday.
    A final PMQs.....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited July 2019
    Cyclefree said:



    This is not difficult stuff.

    I had to deal with serious allegations every day of the week. What any competent investigator does is the following:-

    - You get an allegation.
    - You take it seriously. This does not mean saying that you believe the person making the allegation, never mind announcing this to the world or telling people that the accused is a terrible person. What it does mean is that you commit to doing a proper thorough investigation into the allegation.
    - You do a proper investigation: interview the accuser, check everything out that he or she says; investigate the allegation from every possible angle; check everything; look for corroboration; look for stuff that contradicts what is being alleged; follow up every lead; widen the scope if necessary to come at the issue from a different perspective; test, test, test etc;
    - you do not allow yourself to be influenced by what you think of the accuser or your sympathy or the gravity of what is alleged or public reaction or any other small "p" political shenanigans. It is essential that you approach this independently and professionally. You are not there to play games.
    - when you have done all you reasonably can, you make a decision or recommendation and verify / check / confirm this with others. Spell out what is fact and what is your judgment and the basis for it. Be prepared for others to challenge what you have found and your findings.
    - then write a proper report and pass the matter over to those who take the prosecution or disciplinary forward if that is the decision.

    This is hard to do well but is the day-to-day job of any investigator, police force etc. If you can't or won't do this you have no business doing that job.

    Why the police behaved like such boobies I don't know. I'm guessing it was a combination of panic / political arse-licking / desire to be associated with a high profile case to make a name for themselves / plain bloody incompetence and second-rateness.

    It's been years since I read it, but I recall being pretty stunned by the attitude of many senior police officers in the Henriques report on the investigations. The idea of not expecting people to prove themselves innocent seemed bizarre to the police, the emphasis on believing accusations, insisting that accusers be referred to as victims even without proof (the police seemed to think this would harm trust in the authorities to not do so, but the judge was not persuaded and no one qualified seemed to have a problem with that - even complainants themselves did not expect to be instantly believed, he said), it was a shocking read.

    https://factuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Report-Independent-Review-of-the-Metropolitan-Police-Services-handling-of-non-recent-sexual-offence-investigations-1-3-1.pdf
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    European Commission rules that UK dwelling EU citizens can still hold .eu domains after Brexit

    https://betanews.com/2019/07/21/eu-domains-post-brexit/

    Is this common requirement in other countries / regions? When I have bought domains in the past, I don't remember ever been asked to prove my citizenship.

    Do that means UK citizens can't?

    Like you, I'm not aware of residency requirements on other domains.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    edited July 2019
    dixiedean said:

    Cyclefree said:

    dixiedean said:
    What any competent investigator does is the following:-

    - You get an allegation.
    - You take it seriously. This does not mean saying that you believe the person making the allegation, never mind announcing this to the world or telling people that the accused is a terrible person. What it does mean is that you commit to doing a proper thorough investigation into the allegation.
    - You do a proper investigation: interview the accuser, check everything out that he or she says; investigate the allegation from every possible angle; check everything; look for corroboration; look for stuff that contradicts what is being alleged; follow up every lead; widen the scope if necessary to come at the issue from a different perspective; test, test, test etc;
    - you do not allow yourself to be influenced by what you think of the accuser or your sympathy or the gravity of what is alleged or public reaction or any other small "p" political shenanigans. It is essential that you approach this independently and professionally. You are not there to play games.
    - when you have done all you reasonably can, you make a decision or recommendation and verify / check / confirm this with others. Spell out what is fact and what is your judgment and the basis for it. Be prepared for others to challenge what you have found and your findings.
    - then write a proper report and pass the matter over to those who take the prosecution or disciplinary forward if that is the decision.

    This is hard to do well but is the day-to-day job of any investigator, police force etc. If you can't or won't do this you have no business doing that job.

    Why the police behaved like such boobies I don't know. I'm guessing it was a combination of panic / political arse-licking / desire to be associated with a high profile case to make a name for themselves / plain bloody incompetence and second-rateness.
    A desire to catch someone high profile, having had Savile reported numerous times with no enquiries made.
    Natural, but unprofessional.
    On Savile, I suspect there was probably some element of corruption and / or conflict of interest involved. Savile was very good at cultivating police officers who as a result did not investigate and did not have the sense or integrity to realise that they could not make the decision given their personal relationship with the creep.

    Highly unprofessional of course. What the hell do they teach them on their detective courses? Being an investigator is - inevitably - a bit of a lonely job precisely because you cannot afford to let yourself be entangled in ways which might compromise you professionally. Rule no. 1.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 3,706

    philiph said:

    MikeL said:

    It's not just about Brexit.

    If there's a GE, Boris needs attractive eye catching policies to talk about.

    Surely the lesson was learned in 2017 - it's no good banging on about Brexit and nothing else for a whole GE campaign.

    And it looks as if Boris has got the message.

    I think you will find it is.
    His best hope of survival is to gain support for bold, popular and innovative policies that are non brexit issues that do bring the party together.
    I am trying to work out how he buries Brexit in this avalanche of social policy and unfettered public spending. Brexit will be his undoing or his salvation.

    philiph said:

    MikeL said:

    It's not just about Brexit.

    If there's a GE, Boris needs attractive eye catching policies to talk about.

    Surely the lesson was learned in 2017 - it's no good banging on about Brexit and nothing else for a whole GE campaign.

    And it looks as if Boris has got the message.

    I think you will find it is.
    His best hope of survival is to gain support for bold, popular and innovative policies that are non brexit issues that do bring the party together.
    I am trying to work out how he buries Brexit in this avalanche of social policy and unfettered public spending. Brexit will be his undoing or his salvation.
    He will also have the same problem that May had recently. Any financial bill will have an amendment tagged on, which would likely pass Parliament, to shed some sunlight on the "tax efficient" domains of Isle Of man, jersey etc.
    He would either have to bite the bullet and accept such an amendment or call a general election to get any financial bill passed.
This discussion has been closed.