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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The current LAB/Corbyn approach raises the question: What are

SystemSystem Posts: 11,017
edited July 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The current LAB/Corbyn approach raises the question: What are oppositions for?

 

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  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,965
    There is a risk at the moment when calling a VONC that the Tory parties retort with let's have an election then....

    While calling one is the sensible thing to do and essential it really needs to be delayed until Parliament returns after the Party Conferences when the chance of an election before October 31st has past...
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    I've never really understood this theory of Labour as a weak opposition. They have successfully frustrated the government on its main policy, denied the govt a majority (in the face of a remarkable polling deficit) and forced the resignation of god knows how many ministers from Theresa May's cabinet.

  • Options
    chloechloe Posts: 308
    The Opposition in my view is just as much to blame as the government with this Brexit mess.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,955
    chloe said:

    The Opposition in my view is just as much to blame as the government with this Brexit mess.

    How so? It wasn't their idea.
  • Options
    JBriskinindyref2JBriskinindyref2 Posts: 1,775
    Yas - away goal for the Dons

    Chikhura Sachkhere 1 - Aberdeen 1

    15 mins left or so
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    rkrkrk said:

    I've never really understood this theory of Labour as a weak opposition. They have successfully frustrated the government on its main policy, denied the govt a majority (in the face of a remarkable polling deficit) and forced the resignation of god knows how many ministers from Theresa May's cabinet.

    That is simply opposition for opposition's sake and it is more the fact the Tories are divided than Labour being smart.

    The Tories were divided in Major's day. Didn't let Smith, Blair etc off the hook from providing strong opposition. Which was not just opposing everything for opposing's sake.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,955
    Soames says he is "full of fear and dread" on C4 News.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,965
    rkrkrk said:

    I've never really understood this theory of Labour as a weak opposition. They have successfully frustrated the government on its main policy, denied the govt a majority (in the face of a remarkable polling deficit) and forced the resignation of god knows how many ministers from Theresa May's cabinet.

    Sadly I think that shows how bad the Government has been rather than how good the opposition is. If May was facing Cooper / Benn or anyone else half the rubbish with her deal would have been put to bed immediately.
    Heck, there wouldn't have been a 2017 election as she wouldn't have had a lead in the polls.

    On the other hand with another leader the ERG wouldn't have rebelled so much so the chances are we would have left the EU on the 31st March so things aren't all bad...
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    dixiedean said:

    Soames says he is "full of fear and dread" on C4 News.

    Fantastic!

    Now we just need Varadkar, Barnier and Juncker [when he sobers up] to feel the same and we can get somewhere.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    edited July 2019
    Any sign of that much-trailed VONC in the Commons?
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,965
    edited July 2019
    RobD said:

    Slightly OT, but any sign of that much-trailed VONC?

    See my first comment - it looks like a good idea but it's actually not. You really want it in October so you don't get a "let's have an election" response...
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eek said:

    RobD said:

    Slightly OT, but any sign of that much-trailed VONC?

    See my first comment - it looks like a good idea but you really want it in October so you don't get a let's have an election response...
    But the LOTO has been saying on a daily basis he wants an election. Are you saying he's lying?
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Philip_Thompson said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I've never really understood this theory of Labour as a weak opposition. They have successfully frustrated the government on its main policy, denied the govt a majority (in the face of a remarkable polling deficit) and forced the resignation of god knows how many ministers from Theresa May's cabinet.

    That is simply opposition for opposition's sake and it is more the fact the Tories are divided than Labour being smart.

    The Tories were divided in Major's day. Didn't let Smith, Blair etc off the hook from providing strong opposition. Which was not just opposing everything for opposing's sake.
    Labour proposed their own Brexit options and indeed backed ones initiated by conservative MPs (Boles, Clarke). That alone shows that they weren't opposing everything blindly.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    eek said:

    RobD said:

    Slightly OT, but any sign of that much-trailed VONC?

    See my first comment - it looks like a good idea but you really want it in October so you don't get a let's have an election response...
    Yeah, although the optics of a government no confidencing itself will be.. interesting :D
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    eekeek Posts: 24,965
    edited July 2019
    Philip_Thompson said:

    eek said:

    RobD said:

    Slightly OT, but any sign of that much-trailed VONC?

    See my first comment - it looks like a good idea but you really want it in October so you don't get a let's have an election response...
    But the LOTO has been saying on a daily basis he wants an election. Are you saying he's lying?
    No - it's now a timing game. Why would I let Boris have an election on his terms - when I could have it on mine.

    Boris is currently screwed if we don't leave on October 31st - and the time to do that via an election has probably already passed...

    And you don't have to wait long. Parliament is only back for (I think) 3 days in the time frame that provides an October election...
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    RobD said:

    eek said:

    RobD said:

    Slightly OT, but any sign of that much-trailed VONC?

    See my first comment - it looks like a good idea but you really want it in October so you don't get a let's have an election response...
    Yeah, although the optics of a government no confidencing itself will be.. interesting :D
    Its happened in continental nations to get around fixed term Parliament's there. I seem to recall Schroeder did that in Germany from memory, or he won on the back of one like that.
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    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,137
    FPT, anyone interested in 11th Century English colonisation of of the Black Sea...

    https://caitlingreen.org/2015/05/medieval-new-england-black-sea.html
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eek said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    eek said:

    RobD said:

    Slightly OT, but any sign of that much-trailed VONC?

    See my first comment - it looks like a good idea but you really want it in October so you don't get a let's have an election response...
    But the LOTO has been saying on a daily basis he wants an election. Are you saying he's lying?
    No - it's now a timing game. Why would I let Boris have an election on his terms - when I could have it on mine.

    Boris is currently screwed if we don't leave on October 31st - and the time to do that via an election has probably already passed...
    He's not screwed which is why he is goading Parliament.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    One of the better Romanian imports, in my opinion:

    https://live.staticflickr.com/1912/30317279467_e6fd1cf3cd_b.jpg
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    eek said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I've never really understood this theory of Labour as a weak opposition. They have successfully frustrated the government on its main policy, denied the govt a majority (in the face of a remarkable polling deficit) and forced the resignation of god knows how many ministers from Theresa May's cabinet.

    Sadly I think that shows how bad the Government has been rather than how good the opposition is. If May was facing Cooper / Benn or anyone else half the rubbish with her deal would have been put to bed immediately.
    Heck, there wouldn't have been a 2017 election as she wouldn't have had a lead in the polls.

    On the other hand with another leader the ERG wouldn't have rebelled so much so the chances are we would have left the EU on the 31st March so things aren't all bad...
    Largely agree. It may just be that govt is weak, which makes the opposition strong.
    From where I'm sitting though, Labour have sharpened up considerably since the early Corbyn days.
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    JBriskinindyref2JBriskinindyref2 Posts: 1,775
    "Or Blair and Brown, who never let Major’s Tories off the hook in the years leading to their 1997 victory."

    I watched the Major/Blair PMQs in my teenage years. Major used to win all the time - the public cared not a jot.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187
    You hate the notion of a Corbyn government. Hate it even more than No Deal under Johnson.

    Yet you say you wish fervently that Corbyn would shape up and bring this Tory government down.

    This does not scan. Not without a convoluted insincere explanation anyway.
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    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,137
    JBriskinindyref2 said:

    "Or Blair and Brown, who never let Major’s Tories off the hook in the years leading to their 1997 victory."

    I watched the Major/Blair PMQs in my teenage years. Major used to win all the time - the public cared not a jot.

    I was at university in those halcyon days. My abiding memory was waking up to the Today Programme listening to the slowest suicide in history.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    JBriskinindyref2 said:

    "Or Blair and Brown, who never let Major’s Tories off the hook in the years leading to their 1997 victory."

    I watched the Major/Blair PMQs in my teenage years. Major used to win all the time - the public cared not a jot.

    Hague was good, for all the good it did him.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,814
    How weird to see Boris as PM at the despatch on the news...
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    chloechloe Posts: 308
    dixiedean said:

    chloe said:

    The Opposition in my view is just as much to blame as the government with this Brexit mess.

    How so? It wasn't their idea.
    No it wasn’t their idea. But Tory and Labour Remain supporting politicians are all responsible for the campaign during the referendum which did not sell EU membership well at all, hence the Leave result. And since the referendum Labour’s main aim has been to force a referendum rather than come together to solve the Brexit mess. The government did not engage properly in coming together to get an agreed position on a deal either.
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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    DougSeal said:

    FPT, anyone interested in 11th Century English colonisation of of the Black Sea...

    https://caitlingreen.org/2015/05/medieval-new-england-black-sea.html

    That is a fascinating story, but I think the majority of scholars who take it with a very large grain of salt are most likely justified.
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    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    chloe said:

    The Opposition in my view is just as much to blame as the government with this Brexit mess.

    Nonsense. This Brexit is 100% a Tory Brexit. A complete guddle.
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,310
    dixiedean said:

    Soames says he is "full of fear and dread" on C4 News.

    “Like one, that on a lonesome road
    Doth walk in fear and dread,
    And having once turned round walks on,
    And turns no more his head;
    Because he knows, a frightful fiend
    Doth close behind him tread.”

    I know the feeling. :(
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    twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,076
    DougSeal said:

    FPT, anyone interested in 11th Century English colonisation of of the Black Sea...

    https://caitlingreen.org/2015/05/medieval-new-england-black-sea.html

    Not really. it's all turned into a nonsense argument. PB Remainers would love any EU country over Oz, and any PB Brexiter would love Oz over any EU country. You'll not got much sense out of any of them now.
    I've long said that Brexit has made most people on here, on both sides, insane.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,378
    Ask me at the end of the Ashes if I still prefer Australia over Romania.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,378
    https://twitter.com/ShehabKhan/status/1154458798767165440
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    JBriskinindyref2JBriskinindyref2 Posts: 1,775
    StuartDickson said:

    chloe said:

    The Opposition in my view is just as much to blame as the government with this Brexit mess.

    Nonsense. This Brexit is 100% a Tory Brexit. A complete guddle.
    Spoken like a true labourite Stuart D.

    FFIW I agree with Chloe, Labour's unwillingness to embrace the referendum result has ended up with parliament getting a bit messy.
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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    tlg86 said:

    One of the better Romanian imports, in my opinion:

    https://live.staticflickr.com/1912/30317279467_e6fd1cf3cd_b.jpg

    IIRC the Romanian-built ones were a bit crap compared to the later ones built by BREL.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/ShehabKhan/status/1154458798767165440

    When was Baker ever happy?
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    SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 6,258
    rkrkrk said:

    I've never really understood this theory of Labour as a weak opposition. They have successfully frustrated the government on its main policy, denied the govt a majority (in the face of a remarkable polling deficit) and forced the resignation of god knows how many ministers from Theresa May's cabinet.

    Their weakness is having not translated that into a widespread view that they are offering a solution.

    And most of the above is blue-on-blue violence... sure, Labour has voted against Tory legislation (with some rebellions of their own) and called for people to resign, but there is little feeling of them making rather than merely enjoying the weather.
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    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    To go for a vonc now a Tory MP has to effectively say it doesn't matter what Boris does from here whilst theoretically there are still plenty of routes left open. Which might give them pause.

    If you really want to stop Boris the best way s to force him to commit to a route and come up against his October deadline.

    When no deal is no longer something that can be defended as something we have to say to get a good deal but the actual explicit plan then Tory MPs who oppose no deal will have a choice to make.

    Much like the early failed 2nd ref motion designed to attack Labour it will provide a propaganda victory to the side they apparently are against.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    rpjs said:

    tlg86 said:

    One of the better Romanian imports, in my opinion:

    https://live.staticflickr.com/1912/30317279467_e6fd1cf3cd_b.jpg

    IIRC the Romanian-built ones were a bit crap compared to the later ones built by BREL.
    Shhh!
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/ShehabKhan/status/1154458798767165440

    Heart of stone
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    SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 6,258
    Philip_Thompson said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/ShehabKhan/status/1154458798767165440

    When was Baker ever happy?
    Where's your respect, man? Kindly use his proper title of Brexit Hardman Steve Baker in future.
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    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,137
    Philip_Thompson said:

    dixiedean said:

    Soames says he is "full of fear and dread" on C4 News.

    Fantastic!

    Now we just need Varadkar, Barnier and Juncker [when he sobers up] to feel the same and we can get somewhere.
    FFS - I might be an imbecile but you are so dense light bends round you, Barnier’s team has been broken up and gone home now it’s task is complete, Juncker’s replacement has already been elected, and Varadkar is only one of 27. You’re fighting a war that’s been lost. They’ve packed up and gone home secure in the knowledge BoZo was appointed prime minister merely as a result of winning the Tory Party leadership contest, that no majority appears to exists in parliament for a no-deal Brexit, and that the Tories would struggle to win a national election if one were called, and while a disorderly exit would hurt the EU it would devastate us.

    Either we remain or the UK ends and they deal with the weakened rump English state as they feel fit until we are trusted to join as a new state. You’ve lost. You just don’t realise it yet.
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    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,192
    Great piece Cycle free. I'm making the exact same argument on a Labour Facebook group. Thanks much anger of course - apparently the "Thatcherite" Swinson is trying to "wreck Labours Election chances"
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,149
    edited July 2019
    chloe said:

    dixiedean said:

    chloe said:

    The Opposition in my view is just as much to blame as the government with this Brexit mess.

    How so? It wasn't their idea.
    No it wasn’t their idea. But Tory and Labour Remain supporting politicians are all responsible for the campaign during the referendum which did not sell EU membership well at all, hence the Leave result. And since the referendum Labour’s main aim has been to force a referendum rather than come together to solve the Brexit mess. The government did not engage properly in coming together to get an agreed position on a deal either.
    Sorry Brexit is 100% a Tory enterprise. If it works out to the good as Johnson seems to think it will, the Conservative Party deserve all the plaudits. The Labour Party deserve none.

    If on the other extreme it turns out to be a disaster the Conservatives and Johnson will carry the can and so they should.
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    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    chloe said:

    dixiedean said:

    chloe said:

    The Opposition in my view is just as much to blame as the government with this Brexit mess.

    How so? It wasn't their idea.
    No it wasn’t their idea. But Tory and Labour Remain supporting politicians are all responsible for the campaign during the referendum which did not sell EU membership well at all, hence the Leave result. And since the referendum Labour’s main aim has been to force a referendum rather than come together to solve the Brexit mess. The government did not engage properly in coming together to get an agreed position on a deal either.
    Labour got their voters going remain at similar percentages to Lib Dems and SNP. Also until recently Labour had been open to and voted for Brexit options which didn't include a referendum.

    Only recently has our policy gone to 2nd referendum for any brexit.
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    JBriskinindyref2JBriskinindyref2 Posts: 1,775
    Full time

    Europa League second qualifying round 1st leg

    Chikhura Sachkhere 1 - Aberdeen 1

    With that away goal I think I can now play the secret song-

    https://youtu.be/yplpOHHKaC0
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187
    Latest rumour - and I for one believe it - is that if we do get a snap election Labour are going to make a radical move on immigration. A Romanian style points system - seen as a potential silver bullet to this enormously difficult and sensitive policy area.

    What exactly is it? I don't know, silly to speculate, but watch this space.
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,310
    JBriskinindyref2 said:

    StuartDickson said:

    chloe said:

    The Opposition in my view is just as much to blame as the government with this Brexit mess.

    Nonsense. This Brexit is 100% a Tory Brexit. A complete guddle.
    Spoken like a true labourite Stuart D.

    FFIW I agree with Chloe, Labour's unwillingness to embrace the referendum result has ended up with parliament getting a bit messy.
    Yes, I think Chloe is right up to a point although in the end the Government always bears the greater responsibility.

    Think back to Blair and the Iraq war. The opposition was more gung ho than the Labour Party and so should have borne some of the blame, but most of it was down to Blair and the government because they call the shots.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DougSeal said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    dixiedean said:

    Soames says he is "full of fear and dread" on C4 News.

    Fantastic!

    Now we just need Varadkar, Barnier and Juncker [when he sobers up] to feel the same and we can get somewhere.
    FFS - I might be an imbecile but you are so dense light bends round you, Barnier’s team has been broken up and gone home now it’s task is complete, Juncker’s replacement has already been elected, and Varadkar is only one of 27. You’re fighting a war that’s been lost. They’ve packed up and gone home secure in the knowledge BoZo was appointed prime minister merely as a result of winning the Tory Party leadership contest, that no majority appears to exists in parliament for a no-deal Brexit, and that the Tories would struggle to win a national election if one were called, and while a disorderly exit would hurt the EU it would devastate us.

    Either we remain or the UK ends and they deal with the weakened rump English state as they feel fit until we are trusted to join as a new state. You’ve lost. You just don’t realise it yet.
    How does Parliament stop no deal?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105
    Mexicanpete said:

    chloe said:

    dixiedean said:

    chloe said:

    The Opposition in my view is just as much to blame as the government with this Brexit mess.

    How so? It wasn't their idea.
    No it wasn’t their idea. But Tory and Labour Remain supporting politicians are all responsible for the campaign during the referendum which did not sell EU membership well at all, hence the Leave result. And since the referendum Labour’s main aim has been to force a referendum rather than come together to solve the Brexit mess. The government did not engage properly in coming together to get an agreed position on a deal either.
    Sorry Brexit is 100% a Tory enterprise. If it works out to the good as Johnson seems to think it will, the Conservative Party deserve all the plaudits. The Labour Party deserve none.

    If on the other extreme it turns out to be a disaster the Conservatives and Johnson will carry the can and so they should.
    Sorry, but Brexit is a 100% voter enterprise.

    Probably the most effective grouping in the Referendum campaign was Labour Leave.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187
    GIN1138 said:

    How weird to see Boris as PM at the despatch on the news...

    It was. There was something unreal about it. I felt that too.
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,310
    edited July 2019
    Charles said:

    DougSeal said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    dixiedean said:

    Soames says he is "full of fear and dread" on C4 News.

    Fantastic!

    Now we just need Varadkar, Barnier and Juncker [when he sobers up] to feel the same and we can get somewhere.
    FFS - I might be an imbecile but you are so dense light bends round you, Barnier’s team has been broken up and gone home now it’s task is complete, Juncker’s replacement has already been elected, and Varadkar is only one of 27. You’re fighting a war that’s been lost. They’ve packed up and gone home secure in the knowledge BoZo was appointed prime minister merely as a result of winning the Tory Party leadership contest, that no majority appears to exists in parliament for a no-deal Brexit, and that the Tories would struggle to win a national election if one were called, and while a disorderly exit would hurt the EU it would devastate us.

    Either we remain or the UK ends and they deal with the weakened rump English state as they feel fit until we are trusted to join as a new state. You’ve lost. You just don’t realise it yet.
    How does Parliament stop no deal?
    That has been explained on here many times. Were you as dopey and inattentive at School, Charles?
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    DougSeal said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    dixiedean said:

    Soames says he is "full of fear and dread" on C4 News.

    Fantastic!

    Now we just need Varadkar, Barnier and Juncker [when he sobers up] to feel the same and we can get somewhere.
    FFS - I might be an imbecile but you are so dense light bends round you, Barnier’s team has been broken up and gone home now it’s task is complete, Juncker’s replacement has already been elected, and Varadkar is only one of 27. You’re fighting a war that’s been lost. They’ve packed up and gone home secure in the knowledge BoZo was appointed prime minister merely as a result of winning the Tory Party leadership contest, that no majority appears to exists in parliament for a no-deal Brexit, and that the Tories would struggle to win a national election if one were called, and while a disorderly exit would hurt the EU it would devastate us.

    Either we remain or the UK ends and they deal with the weakened rump English state as they feel fit until we are trusted to join as a new state. You’ve lost. You just don’t realise it yet.
    LOL you're so dense you can't even read Barnier's statement today. In which he specifically said he would "remain available throughout the summer for talks with the UK".

    Varadkar is one of 27 but he is the one that matters. If he blinks, the 27 blink, since this who thing is them standing in solidarity with Ireland. If Ireland says "we have an alternative we would prefer" then then other 26 aren't going to veto that.

    We are no more going to be a new state of the EU than Pakistan is going to be a new state of India, or Alberta a new state of the USA. You're delusional.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    Charles said:

    DougSeal said:

    Philip_Thompson said:

    dixiedean said:

    Soames says he is "full of fear and dread" on C4 News.

    Fantastic!

    Now we just need Varadkar, Barnier and Juncker [when he sobers up] to feel the same and we can get somewhere.
    FFS - I might be an imbecile but you are so dense light bends round you, Barnier’s team has been broken up and gone home now it’s task is complete, Juncker’s replacement has already been elected, and Varadkar is only one of 27. You’re fighting a war that’s been lost. They’ve packed up and gone home secure in the knowledge BoZo was appointed prime minister merely as a result of winning the Tory Party leadership contest, that no majority appears to exists in parliament for a no-deal Brexit, and that the Tories would struggle to win a national election if one were called, and while a disorderly exit would hurt the EU it would devastate us.

    Either we remain or the UK ends and they deal with the weakened rump English state as they feel fit until we are trusted to join as a new state. You’ve lost. You just don’t realise it yet.
    How does Parliament stop no deal?
    By far the easiest way would have been a vote of confidence in the government today!

    I’m sure Grieve and Bercow will be spending a few hours of their summer holiday coming up with a plan.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,814
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/ShehabKhan/status/1154458798767165440

    "Enraged" generally seems to be Bakers default mood! :D
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,310
    MarqueeMark said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    chloe said:

    dixiedean said:

    chloe said:

    The Opposition in my view is just as much to blame as the government with this Brexit mess.

    How so? It wasn't their idea.
    No it wasn’t their idea. But Tory and Labour Remain supporting politicians are all responsible for the campaign during the referendum which did not sell EU membership well at all, hence the Leave result. And since the referendum Labour’s main aim has been to force a referendum rather than come together to solve the Brexit mess. The government did not engage properly in coming together to get an agreed position on a deal either.
    Sorry Brexit is 100% a Tory enterprise. If it works out to the good as Johnson seems to think it will, the Conservative Party deserve all the plaudits. The Labour Party deserve none.

    If on the other extreme it turns out to be a disaster the Conservatives and Johnson will carry the can and so they should.
    Sorry, but Brexit is a 100% voter enterprise.

    Probably the most effective grouping in the Referendum campaign was Labour Leave.
    You have to start at the top, Mark, with the EU. Then work your way down.

    You pretty soon come the Government of course, and then the Official Oppsition.

    Voters are quite a long way down, but not blameless.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    kinabalu said:

    GIN1138 said:

    How weird to see Boris as PM at the despatch on the news...

    It was. There was something unreal about it. I felt that too.
    You always get that feeling in the first few days of a new premiership.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Ha BoZo upset Stve "hardman" Baker?

    It would be ultimately ironic if the ERG are his undoing...
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,310
    GIN1138 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    https://twitter.com/ShehabKhan/status/1154458798767165440

    "Enraged" generally seems to be Bakers default mood! :D
    And he's a positive ray of sunshine compared to Mark Francois. Wait till he pops in to see the boss.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1154464082050867200
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105
    Scott_P said:

    Ha BoZo upset Stve "hardman" Baker?

    It would be ultimately ironic if the ERG are his undoing...

    Even more so if he is theirs.....
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Peter_the_Punter said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    Mexicanpete said:

    chloe said:

    dixiedean said:

    chloe said:

    The Opposition in my view is just as much to blame as the government with this Brexit mess.

    How so? It wasn't their idea.
    No it wasn’t their idea. But Tory and Labour Remain supporting politicians are all responsible for the campaign during the referendum which did not sell EU membership well at all, hence the Leave result. And since the referendum Labour’s main aim has been to force a referendum rather than come together to solve the Brexit mess. The government did not engage properly in coming together to get an agreed position on a deal either.
    Sorry Brexit is 100% a Tory enterprise. If it works out to the good as Johnson seems to think it will, the Conservative Party deserve all the plaudits. The Labour Party deserve none.

    If on the other extreme it turns out to be a disaster the Conservatives and Johnson will carry the can and so they should.
    Sorry, but Brexit is a 100% voter enterprise.

    Probably the most effective grouping in the Referendum campaign was Labour Leave.
    You have to start at the top, Mark, with the EU. Then work your way down.

    You pretty soon come the Government of course, and then the Official Oppsition.

    Voters are quite a long way down, but not blameless.
    "Blameless"? That's rather perjorative. There's no blame that needs apportioning to voters, they made a perfectly legitimate choice.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1154464082050867200

    FANTASTIC!

    Presumably Boles as a recent Conservative will be delighted with this? Presumably he's not using Thatcherite as an insult?
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,055
    Scott_P said:

    Ha BoZo upset Stve "hardman" Baker?

    It would be ultimately ironic if the ERG are his undoing...

    Well Boris's new right hand man Dominic Cummings did say that the ERG "should be treated like a metastasising tumour and excised from the UK body politic".
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,150
    edited July 2019
    (expunged)
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    williamglenn said:

    Scott_P said:

    Ha BoZo upset Stve "hardman" Baker?

    It would be ultimately ironic if the ERG are his undoing...

    Well Boris's new right hand man Dominic Cummings did say that the ERG "should be treated like a metastasising tumour and excised from the UK body politic".
    Who here disagrees with that sentiment?
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,732
    Labour did not agree with the VONC because Corbyn supports Leave and everything he has done during his career and present post is to achieve that state.
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    nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Labour were correct in not putting forward a VONC before the recess .

    Bozo would have won that and he would have been taking that as a mandate for his Brexit plan .

    I like the Lib Dems and Swinson but her idea was grandstanding and self defeating .

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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Dinner:


  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    viewcode said:

    Labour did not agree with the VONC because Corbyn supports Leave and everything he has done during his career and present post is to achieve that state.

    Corbyn's ideal date in his mind for a VONC to be held is 1 November.
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,310
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Dinner:


    You go too far, Meeks. A week in ConHome for you, my lad.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    If Corbyn Labour are not careful Swinson's LDs will end up leading to the opposition to Boris' Tories instead
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Dinner:


    I am quite jealous.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/BBCVickiYoung/status/1154466924295667712
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/elliotttimes/status/1154466862186369024
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,055
    https://twitter.com/n_roettgen/status/1154435399420383232
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Peter_the_Punter said:

    You go too far, Meeks. A week in ConHome for you, my lad.

    Where is the banhammer when you need it...
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    timmotimmo Posts: 1,469
    Scott_P said:

    Ha BoZo upset Stve "hardman" Baker?

    It would be ultimately ironic if the ERG are his undoing...

    But if he is surrounded by pro brexiteers he can tell Baker and Francois and other ERG members to get back in their box.
    I heard today that Cummings thinks they are a bunch of tosspots...
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    williamglenn said:

    https://twitter.com/n_roettgen/status/1154435399420383232

    Isn't Remain still in the majority in the Cabinet?
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187
    DougSeal said:

    FFS - I might be an imbecile but you are so dense light bends round you, Barnier’s team has been broken up and gone home now it’s task is complete, Juncker’s replacement has already been elected, and Varadkar is only one of 27. You’re fighting a war that’s been lost. They’ve packed up and gone home secure in the knowledge BoZo was appointed prime minister merely as a result of winning the Tory Party leadership contest, that no majority appears to exists in parliament for a no-deal Brexit, and that the Tories would struggle to win a national election if one were called, and while a disorderly exit would hurt the EU it would devastate us.

    Either we remain or the UK ends and they deal with the weakened rump English state as they feel fit until we are trusted to join as a new state. You’ve lost. You just don’t realise it yet.

    That is hellish doomy and gloomy.

    And it would mean we are NOT about to enter a new Golden Age.

    Don't know who to believe now - you or Boris Johnson.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,055
    RobD said:

    williamglenn said:

    https://twitter.com/n_roettgen/status/1154435399420383232

    Isn't Remain still in the majority in the Cabinet?
    They're HYUFD Remainers, committed to No Deal.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,775
    Early days, but Boris has had a decent start.

    It matters not a whit of course if he gets the substantive stuff wrong, but there's a degree of comfort that he's up for the job.

    Steve Baker is no loss as a minister. (Probably be no loss to sweeping-up either)
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,301
    Do we know how Boris’s little chat with Mr Junker about the new WA went?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,378
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Dinner:


    Blocked and reported.
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    nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    RobD said:

    williamglenn said:

    https://twitter.com/n_roettgen/status/1154435399420383232

    Isn't Remain still in the majority in the Cabinet?
    This is laughable . Half of the Remainers there have turned to the dark side , the other half were RINOs .

    The press keep pushing this apparent mix of Remain or Leave to dupe the public . The cabinet is all signed up to no deal .

  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/iainmartin1/status/1154468523458072576
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    williamglenn said:

    RobD said:

    williamglenn said:

    https://twitter.com/n_roettgen/status/1154435399420383232

    Isn't Remain still in the majority in the Cabinet?
    They're HYUFD Remainers, committed to No Deal.
    Democrats then.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1154468738357444609
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,603
    I have recently returned from a trip to Canada. From my experience staying with Wor Lass's family I can confirm that they speak the same language over there as over here. Punjabi.
  • Options
    timmotimmo Posts: 1,469
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1154468738357444609

    The bloke is a grade A twat
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,775
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Dinner:


    Blocked and reported.
    That post has been up 11mins Mr TSE! Surely your alert priority one team have fallen short. I could understand such a lag if a mere world crisis was involved, but a priority one!?
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    nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Steve Baker takes himself far too seriously .

    He needs to chill a bit . He is though quite a polite guy and doesn’t make we want to punch the tv like Francois .

  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,378
    Omnium said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Dinner:


    Blocked and reported.
    That post has been up 11mins Mr TSE! Surely your alert priority one team have fallen short. I could understand such a lag if a mere world crisis was involved, but a priority one!?
    I’m on holiday.

    There’s pisspoor mobile coverage.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    kinabalu said:

    Latest rumour - and I for one believe it - is that if we do get a snap election Labour are going to make a radical move on immigration. A Romanian style points system - seen as a potential silver bullet to this enormously difficult and sensitive policy area.

    What exactly is it? I don't know, silly to speculate, but watch this space.

    Dracula rules ok ?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    RochdalePioneers said:

    Great piece Cycle free. I'm making the exact same argument on a Labour Facebook group. Thanks much anger of course - apparently the "Thatcherite" Swinson is trying to "wreck Labours Election chances"

    Agreed.
    I see Cyclefree’s article is not particularly popular with either Borisites or Corbynites, but is seems a fair assessment to me.

    The spectacle of Corbyn sitting on his hands for three years as far as Brexit is concerned has not been an edifying one.

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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    felix said:

    kinabalu said:

    Latest rumour - and I for one believe it - is that if we do get a snap election Labour are going to make a radical move on immigration. A Romanian style points system - seen as a potential silver bullet to this enormously difficult and sensitive policy area.

    What exactly is it? I don't know, silly to speculate, but watch this space.

    Dracula rules ok ?
    I wouldn’t stake much on that.

  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,055
    edited July 2019
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Dinner:


    Blocked and reported.
    "This person is encouraging or contemplating self-harm"
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    williamglenn said:

    https://twitter.com/n_roettgen/status/1154435399420383232

    How dare those pesky Brits not toe the EU line.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,775
    edited July 2019
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Omnium said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Dinner:


    Blocked and reported.
    That post has been up 11mins Mr TSE! Surely your alert priority one team have fallen short. I could understand such a lag if a mere world crisis was involved, but a priority one!?
    I’m on holiday.

    There’s pisspoor mobile coverage.
    I'll be shocked if you tell me you don't have a team in an office somewhere who's sole task is to police this 24x7!

    (Whole thing is really quite funny. Enjoy your holiday though rather than worrying about pizza.)

    edit: sorry can't use meme - a good word, but not one to be used :) 'thing'
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    ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,819
    Too soon to comment on how Boris will do against Corbyn, we've seen so many honeymoons burn up quickly. A lot of Boris' campaign seems to be relying on splitting the remain vote while uniting the leave vote but I really doubt they polling numbers we see will lead to a 1983 style split opposition. Labour won't be punished for their useless brexit stance in seats where they remain the best bet of stopping Boris. Where they do lose seats it will be largely to SNP and Lib Dems. Tories may pick up most or even all of the BXP vote but they risk unwinding a lot of the post-coalition LD gains in doing so.

    If I was going to guess at a snap election result I would imagine something similar to now, but with a few less tories and Labour net, and a few more lib dems and SNP net.

    In other news, it is so hot in Paris that even the wind is hot and doesn't cool you down. It's unbearable.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,541
    nico67 said:

    Steve Baker takes himself far too seriously .

    He needs to chill a bit . He is though quite a polite guy and doesn’t make we want to punch the tv like Francois .

    I think he sees himself as Cato the Younger.
    Whereas he comes across as a particularly stroppy teenager.

This discussion has been closed.