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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Jared O’Mara’s likely resignation should prompt another look a

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited July 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Jared O’Mara’s likely resignation should prompt another look at extending proxy voting in the Commons

Parliament is – and is meant to be – a tough arena. MPs and ministers take critically-important decisions and need to be accountable for them. Ideas and arguments need to tested and pitted against one another. Failures (and perceived failures) will be pounced on, often ruthlessly. Unfortunate ministers and shadow ministers who make the wrong mistake at the wrong time find themselves at the centre of a political storm often out of all proportion to the event itself, and often resulting in an unjust resignation – a storm made all the more intense these days by social media and 24-hour news reporting.

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Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    First.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    Second.....like Jeremy Hunt...
    If the `troubled' O'Mara does resign and I think that is still to be seen, this will be a test for the new REMAIN alliance between LDs and Greens and TIG that seems to have snuck under the radar.

    Admittedly it is Clegg's old stamping ground but the Greens have really established themselves in Sheffield with the ex-Mayor drawing on the City Council's tree-felling to build support.

    Getting a stand-down deal with the Greens will be tricky, if O'Mara does resign....I still think he may change his mind: (good salary, plenty of perks and a nice pension).
  • StonchStonch Posts: 42
    edited July 2019
    Surely 12 months, as suggested in the header, is far too long a period for such a proxy arrangement to be allowed, even if you can stomach the principle - and the way in which it fundamentally undermines the role of MPs - in the first place?

    In any event, O'Mara is a terrible example to be using the further this idea. He's strung out his announcement to resign, and even then said he's only going to do so in September. Surely this is just so he can collect his salary a little longer? It's hard to have any sympathy at all. The bloke just seems to be an utterly selfish boor. Parliament will be better without him, as would the licensed trade in Sheffield from what I've heard through other channels.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587
    If the principle of voters’ voices being represented is so important, why do we not have PR ?
    In that context, an odd MP out of 650 going AWOL is hardly a pressing matter, and voters in the constituency can deliver their verdict at the next election in any event.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,546
    One thing I'd like to say about this situation: we need to be careful that this does not further stigmatise mental health issues. In O’Mara's case, his issues have led him to act in very unsuitable (and nasty) ways towards others, but that's far from the case for all sufferers.

    Having said that, I'd also query how much his issues are down to mental health issues, and how much because he's a git. The fact he's been doing gittish things for years even before entering parliament does slightly indicate his behaviour may not be all down to the pressure of the job.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    Is there anyone from the Jared O'Mara fan club in this morning?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    On topic - sounds like a sensible idea, so unlikely to happen.

    If we used list PR then the next person on the list could act as a temporary stand-in MP. Think of them as the 12th man/woman stepping onto the field when a player is indisposed.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    Nigelb said:

    If the principle of voters’ voices being represented is so important, why do we not have PR ?
    In that context, an odd MP out of 650 going AWOL is hardly a pressing matter, and voters in the constituency can deliver their verdict at the next election in any event.

    A good point. As a Tory David is more concerned with the residents of a fifth of one city going underrepresented than he is about a fifth of the entire country being so.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    Second.....like Jeremy Hunt...
    If the `troubled' O'Mara does resign and I think that is still to be seen, this will be a test for the new REMAIN alliance between LDs and Greens and TIG that seems to have snuck under the radar.

    Admittedly it is Clegg's old stamping ground but the Greens have really established themselves in Sheffield with the ex-Mayor drawing on the City Council's tree-felling to build support.

    Getting a stand-down deal with the Greens will be tricky, if O'Mara does resign....I still think he may change his mind: (good salary, plenty of perks and a nice pension).

    ....and a General Election imminent, so what is the point of troubling the voters twice in weeks?

    Perhaps a more pertient question to ask is how many more O'Maras and Onasanyas are Corbyn's Labour Party installing as replacements for MPs standing down? Has quality control been upgraded/installed in winnable seats?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good morning, everyone.

    Will shortly peruse the markets and see if anything's looking good for the race.

    I wonder if Clegg regrets not being able to stand as a candidate.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    Just demonstrates the meticulous planning for which Boris is renowned.
    That level of preparation for a million to one chance.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/26/boris-johnson-chances-of-no-deal-brexit-are-a-million-to-one-against
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405

    Second.....like Jeremy Hunt...
    If the `troubled' O'Mara does resign and I think that is still to be seen, this will be a test for the new REMAIN alliance between LDs and Greens and TIG that seems to have snuck under the radar.

    Admittedly it is Clegg's old stamping ground but the Greens have really established themselves in Sheffield with the ex-Mayor drawing on the City Council's tree-felling to build support.

    Getting a stand-down deal with the Greens will be tricky, if O'Mara does resign....I still think he may change his mind: (good salary, plenty of perks and a nice pension).

    ....and a General Election imminent, so what is the point of troubling the voters twice in weeks?

    Perhaps a more pertient question to ask is how many more O'Maras and Onasanyas are Corbyn's Labour Party installing as replacements for MPs standing down? Has quality control been upgraded/installed in winnable seats?
    In one of my former CLPs long-standing and highly capable members of the Exec were defeated by candidates whose only qualification for their role was 'I support Jeremy Corbyn'. Surprise, surprise they didn't have a clue and had to be rapidly replaced.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405

    Good morning, everyone.

    Will shortly peruse the markets and see if anything's looking good for the race.

    I wonder if Clegg regrets not being able to stand as a candidate.

    On his salary - are you kidding?!?
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870
    We should be forever grateful to O’Mara for ridding British politics of Clegg, whose signature achievement was taking the Liberal Democrats from 56 seats to 8, wiping out Ashdown and Kennedy’s years of work.

    With that in mind, I’m prepared to cut the guy a bit of slack
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587
    rkrkrk said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    Just demonstrates the meticulous planning for which Boris is renowned.
    That level of preparation for a million to one chance.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/26/boris-johnson-chances-of-no-deal-brexit-are-a-million-to-one-against
    It just demonstrates that Boris is as facile and reflexive a liar as Trump.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,883

    Good morning, everyone.

    Will shortly peruse the markets and see if anything's looking good for the race.

    I wonder if Clegg regrets not being able to stand as a candidate.

    Yeah, I wonder if he would prefer to be making a million quid a year in California or listen to shell suited morons moan about dog shit and potholes in Sheffield.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Dura_Ace said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Will shortly peruse the markets and see if anything's looking good for the race.

    I wonder if Clegg regrets not being able to stand as a candidate.

    Yeah, I wonder if he would prefer to be making a million quid a year in California or listen to shell suited morons moan about dog shit and potholes in Sheffield.
    I thought it was mostly tree felling?

    But when you put it like that, it's an easy one. How anyone can bear to live in a shitheap like California is beyond me.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587
    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Will shortly peruse the markets and see if anything's looking good for the race.

    I wonder if Clegg regrets not being able to stand as a candidate.

    Yeah, I wonder if he would prefer to be making a million quid a year in California or listen to shell suited morons moan about dog shit and potholes in Sheffield.
    I thought it was mostly tree felling?

    But when you put it like that, it's an easy one. How anyone can bear to live in a shitheap like California is beyond me.
    I believe the money helps.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Will shortly peruse the markets and see if anything's looking good for the race.

    I wonder if Clegg regrets not being able to stand as a candidate.

    Yeah, I wonder if he would prefer to be making a million quid a year in California or listen to shell suited morons moan about dog shit and potholes in Sheffield.
    I thought it was mostly tree felling?

    But when you put it like that, it's an easy one. How anyone can bear to live in a shitheap like California is beyond me.
    I believe the money helps.
    Ask his wife, apparently the Senora finds Californian food a bit substandard.....(says a lot about Yorkshire cuisine)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Will shortly peruse the markets and see if anything's looking good for the race.

    I wonder if Clegg regrets not being able to stand as a candidate.

    Yeah, I wonder if he would prefer to be making a million quid a year in California or listen to shell suited morons moan about dog shit and potholes in Sheffield.
    I thought it was mostly tree felling?

    But when you put it like that, it's an easy one. How anyone can bear to live in a shitheap like California is beyond me.
    I believe the money helps.
    A million quid in California probably goes about as far as £64,000 plus expenses in Sheffield.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Will shortly peruse the markets and see if anything's looking good for the race.

    I wonder if Clegg regrets not being able to stand as a candidate.

    Yeah, I wonder if he would prefer to be making a million quid a year in California or listen to shell suited morons moan about dog shit and potholes in Sheffield.
    I thought it was mostly tree felling?

    But when you put it like that, it's an easy one. How anyone can bear to live in a shitheap like California is beyond me.
    I believe the money helps.
    Ask his wife, apparently the Senora finds Californian food a bit substandard.....(says a lot about Yorkshire cuisine)
    They're an uncouth lot. They like pineapples on their pizzas.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Have we covered this tweet yet?

    https://twitter.com/piris_jc/status/1155074613505867776
    Once again it confirms that we’re we to leave without a deal NI’s border needs to be resolved before the EU will start discussions.

    And we know that we won’t get a deal with the USA without a settled Irish border
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    rkrkrk said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    Just demonstrates the meticulous planning for which Boris is renowned.
    That level of preparation for a million to one chance.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/26/boris-johnson-chances-of-no-deal-brexit-are-a-million-to-one-against
    Appointing Gove to over-see No Deal Brexit planning was a mastertroke by Boris.

    If anyone dies because of lack of medicines - it will be Gove's fault.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Just a little YouGov reminder - the one party’s result the firm got wrong beyond the margin of error in the Euros was BXP. It could be that the Tories have a 10 point lead or it could be that YouGov still hasn’t resolved that sampling issue.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,980
    Dura_Ace said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Will shortly peruse the markets and see if anything's looking good for the race.

    I wonder if Clegg regrets not being able to stand as a candidate.

    Yeah, I wonder if he would prefer to be making a million quid a year in California or listen to shell suited morons moan about dog shit and potholes in Sheffield.
    Nobody in Hallam wears shell suits. I’m the only working class person in this constituency and I wouldn’t be caught dead in one.

    If people are seen wearing shell suits in Hallam they are obviously Dingles from Barnsley or Rotherham and we expel them.

    The major issue here is the trees.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    eek said:

    Have we covered this tweet yet?

    https://twitter.com/piris_jc/status/1155074613505867776
    Once again it confirms that we’re we to leave without a deal NI’s border needs to be resolved before the EU will start discussions.

    And we know that we won’t get a deal with the USA without a settled Irish border

    Yep - No Deal means no FTA with our two biggest export markets, as well as losing favourable access in dozens of other countries. It’s not sustainable. Also, though, relationships will be dependent on who is in power. A change of government can lead to very quick restoration of friendly relations.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Will shortly peruse the markets and see if anything's looking good for the race.

    I wonder if Clegg regrets not being able to stand as a candidate.

    Yeah, I wonder if he would prefer to be making a million quid a year in California or listen to shell suited morons moan about dog shit and potholes in Sheffield.
    I thought it was mostly tree felling?

    But when you put it like that, it's an easy one. How anyone can bear to live in a shitheap like California is beyond me.
    I believe the money helps.
    A million quid in California probably goes about as far as £64,000 plus expenses in Sheffield.
    A pianoforte to challenge your splendid organ:
    https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/07/28/world/offbeat-world/steel-vertical-6-meter-piano-dubbed-worlds-largest-now-ready-wow-listeners-latvia/
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Dura_Ace said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Will shortly peruse the markets and see if anything's looking good for the race.

    I wonder if Clegg regrets not being able to stand as a candidate.

    Yeah, I wonder if he would prefer to be making a million quid a year in California or listen to shell suited morons moan about dog shit and potholes in Sheffield.
    Nobody in Hallam wears shell suits. I’m the only working class person in this constituency and I wouldn’t be caught dead in one.

    If people are seen wearing shell suits in Hallam they are obviously Dingles from Barnsley or Rotherham and we expel them.

    The major issue here is the trees.
    Problem trees are easily solved - you cut them down.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    eek said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Will shortly peruse the markets and see if anything's looking good for the race.

    I wonder if Clegg regrets not being able to stand as a candidate.

    Yeah, I wonder if he would prefer to be making a million quid a year in California or listen to shell suited morons moan about dog shit and potholes in Sheffield.
    Nobody in Hallam wears shell suits. I’m the only working class person in this constituency and I wouldn’t be caught dead in one.

    If people are seen wearing shell suits in Hallam they are obviously Dingles from Barnsley or Rotherham and we expel them.

    The major issue here is the trees.
    Problem trees are easily solved - you cut them down.
    A lack of trees is less easy to solve though. You can't just plant an acorn and they magically appear 24 hours later. It takes decades.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    F1: nothing leapt out at me. Backed Perez to be winner without the big 6, at 8.5 (9 with boost, and third the odds each way for top 2).

    https://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2019/07/germany-pre-race-2019.html
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Appointing Gove to over-see No Deal Brexit planning was a mastertroke by Boris.

    If anyone dies because of lack of medicines - it will be Gove's fault.

    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1155367203677642752
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    One for Mr Eagles and Mr Dancer:

    'Tens of thousands died in the battle [of Waterloo] which saw the French army defeated by allied British and Persian troops.'

    From the BBC.

    Perhaps Iran out of spellchecking devices?

    (They did later change it to 'Prussian.')
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547
    edited July 2019
    Yesterday Belongs To Me!
    .
    .



    Here we go. More rallies. More leadership cult stuff. More shouting and cheering the flag or the slogan or the leader. More suspension of every day democratic norms and party basics.

    Where will all this end? History says in a very dark place.

    https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1155226064060329984


  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    Scott_P said:

    Appointing Gove to over-see No Deal Brexit planning was a mastertroke by Boris.

    If anyone dies because of lack of medicines - it will be Gove's fault.

    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1155367203677642752
    This is the same Gove who 3 years ago thought that Bozo was unfit to be PM. Consistency isn't a strong point.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,916
    The "hostile environment" continues. Nothing quite captures the institutional racism of the British state like being told to "go home" by a housing officer in Crawley when your homeland has been stolen by the British government.
    Perhaps our new PM can intervene to put the "watermelon smiles" back on their faces?
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/28/windrush-scandal-continues-in-crawley-as-chagos-islanders-told-go-back
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    eek said:

    Have we covered this tweet yet?

    https://twitter.com/piris_jc/status/1155074613505867776
    Once again it confirms that we’re we to leave without a deal NI’s border needs to be resolved before the EU will start discussions.

    And we know that we won’t get a deal with the USA without a settled Irish border

    This is what I have been saying for months. The immediate consequences of no deal are being massively over stated and would be resolved relatively quickly. The longer term consequences for our relations with the EU really make the deal imperative for exactly the reasons this Jonny come lately has pointed out.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Scott_P said:
    I've been saying this for months. Johnson and Corbyn are two cheeks of the same arse.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    Scott_P said:

    Appointing Gove to over-see No Deal Brexit planning was a mastertroke by Boris.

    If anyone dies because of lack of medicines - it will be Gove's fault.

    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1155367203677642752
    This is the same Gove who 3 years ago thought that Bozo was unfit to be PM. Consistency isn't a strong point.
    Like his education reforms, he started with the right idea but couldn't make it work in practice.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:
    I've been saying this for months. Johnson and Corbyn are two cheeks of the same arse.
    Maybe not such a good idea for Jo Swinson to aim for the yawning gap in the centre.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    A Tory PM on Labour territory, his armoured limousine glides over Jeremy Corbyn’s lawn and away to the next stop on the campaign trail

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/bus-regulation-affordable-housing-36bn-16656327.amp?__twitter_impression=true
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:

    Appointing Gove to over-see No Deal Brexit planning was a mastertroke by Boris.

    If anyone dies because of lack of medicines - it will be Gove's fault.

    https://twitter.com/robpowellnews/status/1155367203677642752
    This is the same Gove who 3 years ago thought that Bozo was unfit to be PM. Consistency isn't a strong point.
    Like his education reforms, he started with the right idea but couldn't make it work in practice.
    I'm disappointed that Gove didn’t stay at Environment. With Goldsmith as a sidekick they could have really cracked on and done some good.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.
    How many Spartans are in cabinet? Is it just Priti Patel? Presumably she would resign if Bozo tried to reheat May's deal.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:
    I've been saying this for months. Johnson and Corbyn are two cheeks of the same arse.
    Maybe not such a good idea for Jo Swinson to aim for the yawning gap in the centre.
    Are you saying she'd bugger it up?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547
    On topic, I would say Parliament is behind the curve on support with mental health issues. I would also suggest most employers would have sacked O'Mara by now. Mental health issues aren't a cover for misbehaviour.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.
    How many Spartans are in cabinet? Is it just Priti Patel? Presumably she would resign if Bozo tried to reheat May's deal.
    Maybe (little loss if she did, bizarre appointment) but I suspect she will be persuaded that this is the best that can be achieved and the focus should be on what can be agreed in the transitional period with much to play for.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Scott_P said:
    To misquote Blackadder, the next election will be fought on personalities, not issues. This is because neither leading candidate understands the issues, although they have several of them.

    Those of us who vote on the future of the country have a problem.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Doethur, be interesting to know whether that was, as I suspect, just a homophonic typo, or whether someone saw the word 'Prussian' and thought that was itself a typo.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:
    To misquote Blackadder, the next election will be fought on personalities, not issues. This is because neither leading candidate understands the issues, although they have several of them.

    Those of us who vote on the future of the country have a problem.
    Where's George when we need him?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:
    To misquote Blackadder, the next election will be fought on personalities, not issues. This is because neither leading candidate understands the issues, although they have several of them.

    Those of us who vote on the future of the country have a problem.
    Where's George when we need him?
    Galloway?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    Mr. Doethur, be interesting to know whether that was, as I suspect, just a homophonic typo, or whether someone saw the word 'Prussian' and thought that was itself a typo.

    It's too early in the morning. I was wondering why 'Persian' was homophobic, then I reread your comment.

    I think it was probably an autocorrect error. Somebody typed 'Pursian' when they meant 'Prussian' and Bill Gates did the rest.
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038
    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.
    Nope. There's no mechanism for presenting parliament with a choice between two options. Faced with two separate votes, the WA and No Deal will both be voted down again. It would be good if a couple of dozen Labour MPs voted for the WA in order to bring this first stage of Brexit to an end finally, but as far as I'm aware it's not happening.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:
    To misquote Blackadder, the next election will be fought on personalities, not issues. This is because neither leading candidate understands the issues, although they have several of them.

    Those of us who vote on the future of the country have a problem.
    Where's George when we need him?
    Galloway?
    Err...no.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:
    To misquote Blackadder, the next election will be fought on personalities, not issues. This is because neither leading candidate understands the issues, although they have several of them.

    Those of us who vote on the future of the country have a problem.
    Where's George when we need him?
    Brown? He's dead I'm afraid.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,405
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:
    To misquote Blackadder, the next election will be fought on personalities, not issues. This is because neither leading candidate understands the issues, although they have several of them.

    Those of us who vote on the future of the country have a problem.
    Where's George when we need him?
    Galloway?
    Err...no.
    Soros?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:
    To misquote Blackadder, the next election will be fought on personalities, not issues. This is because neither leading candidate understands the issues, although they have several of them.

    Those of us who vote on the future of the country have a problem.
    Where's George when we need him?
    Galloway?
    Err...no.
    Soros?
    Thomas? Complete with his mama!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    FF43 said:

    On topic, I would say Parliament is behind the curve on support with mental health issues. I would also suggest most employers would have sacked O'Mara by now. Mental health issues aren't a cover for misbehaviour.

    Indeed. His defence includes phrases such as “self-medicated with alcohol”, which is one many of us might find useful.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    Dadge said:

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.
    Nope. There's no mechanism for presenting parliament with a choice between two options. Faced with two separate votes, the WA and No Deal will both be voted down again. It would be good if a couple of dozen Labour MPs voted for the WA in order to bring this first stage of Brexit to an end finally, but as far as I'm aware it's not happening.
    I don't believe that Parliament can actually prevent a no deal if the PM is determined enough. There simply isn't the time or the mechanisms to allow legislation to stop it and a VoNC and election means no deal Brexit happens by default.

    If they are persuaded that Boris will let this happen then the choice finally becomes binary. May was always clear that it wouldn't which is why she is now an ex PM. It may be reckless (particularly when essential legislation for no deal has not even been passed) but it might also work.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.

    I just don’t see how that works. Anything but No Deal is a gift to Farage.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    ydoethur said:

    eek said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Will shortly peruse the markets and see if anything's looking good for the race.

    I wonder if Clegg regrets not being able to stand as a candidate.

    Yeah, I wonder if he would prefer to be making a million quid a year in California or listen to shell suited morons moan about dog shit and potholes in Sheffield.
    Nobody in Hallam wears shell suits. I’m the only working class person in this constituency and I wouldn’t be caught dead in one.

    If people are seen wearing shell suits in Hallam they are obviously Dingles from Barnsley or Rotherham and we expel them.

    The major issue here is the trees.
    Problem trees are easily solved - you cut them down.
    A lack of trees is less easy to solve though. You can't just plant an acorn and they magically appear 24 hours later. It takes decades.
    My eldest son, as a child, planted a few acorns in our front garden just after we moved in.

    Today, 43 years later it is a much admired tree which we maintain yearly by a tree surgeon
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.

    I just don’t see how that works. Anything but No Deal is a gift to Farage.

    The threat of Farage is grossly overstated if Brexit is delivered. No doubt there will be moans of servitude etc. Few will pay attention having never got the details. I am reminded of Palmerston's description of the Schleswig-Holstein question
    "“Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business—the Prince Consort, who is dead—a German professor, who has gone mad—and I, who have forgotten all about it."

    So let it be with Brexit. Of course if it is not delivered that is a whole other ball game.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    Dura_Ace said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Will shortly peruse the markets and see if anything's looking good for the race.

    I wonder if Clegg regrets not being able to stand as a candidate.

    Yeah, I wonder if he would prefer to be making a million quid a year in California or listen to shell suited morons moan about dog shit and potholes in Sheffield.
    Nobody in Hallam wears shell suits. I’m the only working class person in this constituency and I wouldn’t be caught dead in one.

    If people are seen wearing shell suits in Hallam they are obviously Dingles from Barnsley or Rotherham and we expel them.

    The major issue here is the trees.
    I think a by-election in Hallam would be a walkover for the LibDems right now. It’s all about demography nowadays, and it is so easy to fall into the trap of analysing the new politics through the old prism and on the basis of old election results. Where I am now in Brecon (actually Llandrindod) would once have felt like prime LibDem territory; a poor rural area without any tradition of left wing politics. For the by-election, on the upside the current Labour Party is ill equipped to perform well and I would expect a lost deposit. But, despite the campaigning machine in overdrive, my first impression is that this doesn’t feel like a walkover for the LibDems. And the BXP is invisible, which will surely help the Tories.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    IanB2 said:

    FF43 said:

    On topic, I would say Parliament is behind the curve on support with mental health issues. I would also suggest most employers would have sacked O'Mara by now. Mental health issues aren't a cover for misbehaviour.

    Indeed. His defence includes phrases such as “self-medicated with alcohol”, which is one many of us might find useful.
    I am just back from a 3 day cricket binge to Lords. The self medication was quite intense and the scales this morning profoundly depressing. Heading off to the gym shortly.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.

    I just don’t see how that works. Anything but No Deal is a gift to Farage.

    The threat of Farage is grossly overstated if Brexit is delivered. No doubt there will be moans of servitude etc. Few will pay attention having never got the details. I am reminded of Palmerston's description of the Schleswig-Holstein question
    "“Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business—the Prince Consort, who is dead—a German professor, who has gone mad—and I, who have forgotten all about it."

    So let it be with Brexit. Of course if it is not delivered that is a whole other ball game.

    I think you significantly under-estimate the appetite for betrayal that exists in England. Given the demonstrable appetite there is for it in Scotland that surprises me!

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    edited July 2019
    IanB2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Will shortly peruse the markets and see if anything's looking good for the race.

    I wonder if Clegg regrets not being able to stand as a candidate.

    Yeah, I wonder if he would prefer to be making a million quid a year in California or listen to shell suited morons moan about dog shit and potholes in Sheffield.
    Nobody in Hallam wears shell suits. I’m the only working class person in this constituency and I wouldn’t be caught dead in one.

    If people are seen wearing shell suits in Hallam they are obviously Dingles from Barnsley or Rotherham and we expel them.

    The major issue here is the trees.
    I think a by-election in Hallam would be a walkover for the LibDems right now. It’s all about demography nowadays, and it is so easy to fall into the trap of analysing the new politics through the old prism and on the basis of old election results. Where I am now in Brecon (actually Llandrindod) would once have felt like prime LibDem territory; a poor rural area without any tradition of left wing politics. For the by-election, on the upside the current Labour Party is ill equipped to perform well and I would expect a lost deposit. But, despite the campaigning machine in overdrive, my first impression is that this doesn’t feel like a walkover for the LibDems. And the BXP is invisible, which will surely help the Tories.
    That would tend to confirm my impression yesterday.

    Which is also what I have been saying all along. But unlike Hallam, because Brecon and Radnor doesn't conform to national norms, we should be careful of reading too much into a result either way.

    PS - don't tell anyone in Llandod that you're in Brecon. It's in Radnorshire.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.

    I just don’t see how that works. Anything but No Deal is a gift to Farage.

    The threat of Farage is grossly overstated if Brexit is delivered. No doubt there will be moans of servitude etc. Few will pay attention having never got the details. I am reminded of Palmerston's description of the Schleswig-Holstein question
    "“Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business—the Prince Consort, who is dead—a German professor, who has gone mad—and I, who have forgotten all about it."

    So let it be with Brexit. Of course if it is not delivered that is a whole other ball game.

    I think you significantly under-estimate the appetite for betrayal that exists in England. Given the demonstrable appetite there is for it in Scotland that surprises me!

    Maybe we have just learned to ignore their whingeing.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.

    I just don’t see how that works. Anything but No Deal is a gift to Farage.

    The threat of Farage is grossly overstated if Brexit is delivered. No doubt there will be moans of servitude etc. Few will pay attention having never got the details. I am reminded of Palmerston's description of the Schleswig-Holstein question
    "“Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business—the Prince Consort, who is dead—a German professor, who has gone mad—and I, who have forgotten all about it."

    So let it be with Brexit. Of course if it is not delivered that is a whole other ball game.

    I think you significantly under-estimate the appetite for betrayal that exists in England. Given the demonstrable appetite there is for it in Scotland that surprises me!

    Maybe we have just learned to ignore their whingeing.

    That will keep you sane, to be sure, but politically it works. People like to feel betrayed. Any deal from here will be gold-dust for Farage. On that basis I just don’t see how No Deal is avoidable. The Tories are now the BXP. Any deviation from that and they lose. On that HYUFD is 100% correct.

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.

    I just don’t see how that works. Anything but No Deal is a gift to Farage.

    The threat of Farage is grossly overstated if Brexit is delivered. No doubt there will be moans of servitude etc. Few will pay attention having never got the details. I am reminded of Palmerston's description of the Schleswig-Holstein question
    "“Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business—the Prince Consort, who is dead—a German professor, who has gone mad—and I, who have forgotten all about it."

    So let it be with Brexit. Of course if it is not delivered that is a whole other ball game.

    I think you significantly under-estimate the appetite for betrayal that exists in England. Given the demonstrable appetite there is for it in Scotland that surprises me!

    Maybe we have just learned to ignore their whingeing.

    That will keep you sane, to be sure, but politically it works. People like to feel betrayed. Any deal from here will be gold-dust for Farage. On that basis I just don’t see how No Deal is avoidable. The Tories are now the BXP. Any deviation from that and they lose. On that HYUFD is 100% correct.

    But will Big G resign?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.
    How many Spartans are in cabinet? Is it just Priti Patel? Presumably she would resign if Bozo tried to reheat May's deal.
    Dominic Cummings has sidelined the 'Spartans' but the cabinet includes the chairman and other influential members of the ERG

    It is reported that Cummings wants a deal and I expect his skills will see a deal delivered in time

    I am pleased with the Boris bounce but I have a deep unease about where this is going. For now I am content that Boris is laying out a popular manifesto and is attacking labour in it's heartlands.

    I do think labour have a very big 'Corbyn' problem but I do not see a change this side of a GE
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.

    I just don’t see how that works. Anything but No Deal is a gift to Farage.

    The threat of Farage is grossly overstated if Brexit is delivered. No doubt there will be moans of servitude etc. Few will pay attention having never got the details. I am reminded of Palmerston's description of the Schleswig-Holstein question
    "“Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business—the Prince Consort, who is dead—a German professor, who has gone mad—and I, who have forgotten all about it."

    So let it be with Brexit. Of course if it is not delivered that is a whole other ball game.

    I think you significantly under-estimate the appetite for betrayal that exists in England. Given the demonstrable appetite there is for it in Scotland that surprises me!

    Maybe we have just learned to ignore their whingeing.

    That will keep you sane, to be sure, but politically it works. People like to feel betrayed. Any deal from here will be gold-dust for Farage. On that basis I just don’t see how No Deal is avoidable. The Tories are now the BXP. Any deviation from that and they lose. On that HYUFD is 100% correct.

    I disagree, provided that they deliver Brexit. There is still a market for a policy based on real world considerations that can keep long time supporters such as Richard Nabavi and even TSE on board.

    Failure to deliver Brexit at this juncture might well result in the Conservative party being replaced although a private limited company under the exclusive control of 1 man is not really a habile means for doing so. The details of Brexit bore us on here, let alone 99.9% of the population.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    edited July 2019
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Will shortly peruse the markets and see if anything's looking good for the race.

    I wonder if Clegg regrets not being able to stand as a candidate.

    Yeah, I wonder if he would prefer to be making a million quid a year in California or listen to shell suited morons moan about dog shit and potholes in Sheffield.
    Nobody in Hallam wears shell suits. I’m the only working class person in this constituency and I wouldn’t be caught dead in one.

    If people are seen wearing shell suits in Hallam they are obviously Dingles from Barnsley or Rotherham and we expel them.

    The major issue here is the trees.
    I think a by-election in Hallam would be a walkover for the LibDems right now. It’s all about demography nowadays, and it is so easy to fall into the trap of analysing the new politics through the old prism and on the basis of old election results. Where I am now in Brecon (actually Llandrindod) would once have felt like prime LibDem territory; a poor rural area without any tradition of left wing politics. For the by-election, on the upside the current Labour Party is ill equipped to perform well and I would expect a lost deposit. But, despite the campaigning machine in overdrive, my first impression is that this doesn’t feel like a walkover for the LibDems. And the BXP is invisible, which will surely help the Tories.
    That would tend to confirm my impression yesterday.

    Which is also what I have been saying all along. But unlike Hallam, because Brecon and Radnor doesn't conform to national norms, we should be careful of reading too much into a result either way.

    PS - don't tell anyone in Llandod that you're in Brecon. It's in Radnorshire.
    Yes, I think armchair pundits are going to be in for a lot of surprises at the next GE, unless they use their data very intelligently. When you are on the ground things are more real.

    This feels like a seat that is winnable in the current circumstances of the by-election but not holdable if there is a Brexit election along the new political divide. While it is clear from the LibDem election literature that they are pro-Remain (and the Plaid endorsement their leaflets carry is very pro-Remain), the LibDems aren’t leading with an anti-Brexit message and Brexit is positioned as the cause of government infighting and neglect of the real issues that matter to people, rather than the generational mistake it would be described as if this were a by-election in a middle class seat.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265

    One thing I'd like to say about this situation: we need to be careful that this does not further stigmatise mental health issues. In O’Mara's case, his issues have led him to act in very unsuitable (and nasty) ways towards others, but that's far from the case for all sufferers.

    Having said that, I'd also query how much his issues are down to mental health issues, and how much because he's a git. The fact he's been doing gittish things for years even before entering parliament does slightly indicate his behaviour may not be all down to the pressure of the job.

    I think we have to suspend judgment - assessing people we know well is hard enough, let alone someone who we mainly know through tweets. Hell, we all know each other better than that, but I'd hesitate to draw up a personality assessment of anyone here (well, maybe SeanT). But in the places I've worked, someone admitting to problems with alcohol as well as mental health wouldn't be instantly sacked, so long as they were taking steps to tackle the problems.

    More broadly, I agree with David - we need to get away from the idea that being an MP is a uniquely hair-shirty thing for which all normal rights are suspended - otherwise we will miss out on a chunk of talent. Sure, there will always be someone willing to stand, but we don't want natural selection based on masochism.

    It does erode the idea that MPs are elected as individuals, but that it only the case to a limited extent and the 12-month limit and the fact that the MP chooses the proxy largely covers that.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.

    I just don’t see how that works. Anything but No Deal is a gift to Farage.

    The threat of Farage is grossly overstated if Brexit is delivered. No doubt there will be moans of servitude etc. Few will pay attention having never got the details. I am reminded of Palmerston's description of the Schleswig-Holstein question
    "“Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business—the Prince Consort, who is dead—a German professor, who has gone mad—and I, who have forgotten all about it."

    So let it be with Brexit. Of course if it is not delivered that is a whole other ball game.

    I think you significantly under-estimate the appetite for betrayal that exists in England. Given the demonstrable appetite there is for it in Scotland that surprises me!

    Maybe we have just learned to ignore their whingeing.

    That will keep you sane, to be sure, but politically it works. People like to feel betrayed. Any deal from here will be gold-dust for Farage. On that basis I just don’t see how No Deal is avoidable. The Tories are now the BXP. Any deviation from that and they lose. On that HYUFD is 100% correct.

    But will Big G resign?

    It’s always harder to do than to say - especially when your side is winning. But either way I would never doubt Mr G’s integrity. He is clearly very torn. But one thing is certain: the former Conservative and Unionist Party is no more. It is the BXP and English nationalist.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780

    One thing I'd like to say about this situation: we need to be careful that this does not further stigmatise mental health issues. In O’Mara's case, his issues have led him to act in very unsuitable (and nasty) ways towards others, but that's far from the case for all sufferers.

    Having said that, I'd also query how much his issues are down to mental health issues, and how much because he's a git. The fact he's been doing gittish things for years even before entering parliament does slightly indicate his behaviour may not be all down to the pressure of the job.

    I think we have to suspend judgment - assessing people we know well is hard enough, let alone someone who we mainly know through tweets. Hell, we all know each other better than that, but I'd hesitate to draw up a personality assessment of anyone here (well, maybe SeanT). But in the places I've worked, someone admitting to problems with alcohol as well as mental health wouldn't be instantly sacked, so long as they were taking steps to tackle the problems.

    More broadly, I agree with David - we need to get away from the idea that being an MP is a uniquely hair-shirty thing for which all normal rights are suspended - otherwise we will miss out on a chunk of talent. Sure, there will always be someone willing to stand, but we don't want natural selection based on masochism.

    It does erode the idea that MPs are elected as individuals, but that it only the case to a limited extent and the 12-month limit and the fact that the MP chooses the proxy largely covers that.

    Like others I think that 12 months is too long but he is right that proxies are a sane way forward. Those of us that remember MPs being brought out of hospital for votes in the late 70s find it astonishing that 40 years later things are not much better.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.

    I just don’t see how that works. Anything but No Deal is a gift to Farage.

    The threat of Farage is grossly overstated if Brexit is delivered. No doubt there will be moans of servitude etc. Few will pay attention having never got the details. I am reminded of Palmerston's description of the Schleswig-Holstein question
    "“Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business—the Prince Consort, who is dead—a German professor, who has gone mad—and I, who have forgotten all about it."

    So let it be with Brexit. Of course if it is not delivered that is a whole other ball game.

    I think you significantly under-estimate the appetite for betrayal that exists in England. Given the demonstrable appetite there is for it in Scotland that surprises me!

    Maybe we have just learned to ignore their whingeing.

    That will keep you sane, to be sure, but politically it works. People like to feel betrayed. Any deal from here will be gold-dust for Farage. On that basis I just don’t see how No Deal is avoidable. The Tories are now the BXP. Any deviation from that and they lose. On that HYUFD is 100% correct.

    But will Big G resign?
    I have affirmed on many occasions I resign on a no deal.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Will shortly peruse the markets and see if anything's looking good for the race.

    I wonder if Clegg regrets not being able to stand as a candidate.

    Yeah, I wonder if he would prefer to be making a million quid a year in California or listen to shell suited morons moan about dog shit and potholes in Sheffield.
    Nobody in Hallam wears shell suits. I’m the only working class person in this constituency and I wouldn’t be caught dead in one.

    If people are seen wearing shell suits in Hallam they are obviously Dingles from Barnsley or Rotherham and we expel them.

    The major issue here is the trees.
    I think a by-election in Hallam would be a walkover for the LibDems right now. It’s all about demography nowadays, and it is so easy to fall into the trap of analysing the new politics through the old prism and on the basis of old election results. Where I am now in Brecon (actually Llandrindod) would once have felt like prime LibDem territory; a poor rural area without any tradition of left wing politics. For the by-election, on the upside the current Labour Party is ill equipped to perform well and I would expect a lost deposit. But, despite the campaigning machine in overdrive, my first impression is that this doesn’t feel like a walkover for the LibDems. And the BXP is invisible, which will surely help the Tories.
    That would tend to confirm my impression yesterday.

    Which is also what I have been saying all along. But unlike Hallam, because Brecon and Radnor doesn't conform to national norms, we should be careful of reading too much into a result either way.

    PS - don't tell anyone in Llandod that you're in Brecon. It's in Radnorshire.
    Yes, I think armchair pundits are going to be in for a lot of surprises at the next GE, unless they use their data very intelligently. When you are on the ground things are more real.

    This feels like a seat that is winnable in the current circumstances of the by-election but not holdable if there is a Brexit election along the new political divide. While it is clear from the LibDem election literature that they are pro-Remain (and the Plaid endorsement their leaflets carry is very pro-Remain), the LibDems aren’t leading with an anti-Brexit message and Brexit is positioned as the cause of government infighting and neglect of the real issues that matter to people, rather than the generational mistake it would be described as if this were a by-election in a middle class seat.
    Thanks for that. Enjoy your campaigning!
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Peter Hitchens:

    What I noticed about Mr. Johnson very early on was just how much of an act he was. The first time you heard a speech by “Boris,” you chortled a lot. The second time, you chortled a little less. The third time, not at all. But his reputation as a Wodehousian genius means that he need only say “good afternoon” to a room full of elderly Conservatives (almost the only kind of Conservative there is in modern Britain), and they will begin wheezing with mirth and mopping their rheumy eyes.

    https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2019/07/the-boris-act
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.

    I just don’t see how that works. Anything but No Deal is a gift to Farage.

    The threat of Farage is grossly overstated if Brexit is delivered. No doubt there will be moans of servitude etc. Few will pay attention having never got the details. I am reminded of Palmerston's description of the Schleswig-Holstein question
    "“Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business—the Prince Consort, who is dead—a German professor, who has gone mad—and I, who have forgotten all about it."

    So let it be with Brexit. Of course if it is not delivered that is a whole other ball game.

    I think you significantly under-estimate the appetite for betrayal that exists in England. Given the demonstrable appetite there is for it in Scotland that surprises me!

    Maybe we have just learned to ignore their whingeing.

    That will keep you sane, to be sure, but politically it works. People like to feel betrayed. Any deal from here will be gold-dust for Farage. On that basis I just don’t see how No Deal is avoidable. The Tories are now the BXP. Any deviation from that and they lose. On that HYUFD is 100% correct.

    But will Big G resign?

    It’s always harder to do than to say - especially when your side is winning. But either way I would never doubt Mr G’s integrity. He is clearly very torn. But one thing is certain: the former Conservative and Unionist Party is no more. It is the BXP and English nationalist.

    Welcome to the Radical Non-Unionist Party.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.

    I just don’t see how that works. Anything but No Deal is a gift to Farage.

    The threat of Farage is grossly overstated if Brexit is delivered. No doubt there will be moans of servitude etc. Few will pay attention having never got the details. I am reminded of Palmerston's description of the Schleswig-Holstein question
    "“Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business—the Prince Consort, who is dead—a German professor, who has gone mad—and I, who have forgotten all about it."

    So let it be with Brexit. Of course if it is not delivered that is a whole other ball game.

    I think you significantly under-estimate the appetite for betrayal that exists in England. Given the demonstrable appetite there is for it in Scotland that surprises me!

    Principle is often used as a reason for betrayal.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    @Big_G_NorthWales

    After your considerable success n shedding the pounds I think you are posting under false pretences and should now be :

    @Not_Nearly_So_Big_G_NorthWales
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    JackW said:

    @Big_G_NorthWales

    After your considerable success n shedding the pounds I think you are posting under false pretences and should now be :

    @Not_Nearly_So_Big_G_NorthWales

    Thanks Jack but I have been known as Big G for decades.

    But your suggestion is appreciated
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,683

    One thing I'd like to say about this situation: we need to be careful that this does not further stigmatise mental health issues. In O’Mara's case, his issues have led him to act in very unsuitable (and nasty) ways towards others, but that's far from the case for all sufferers.

    Having said that, I'd also query how much his issues are down to mental health issues, and how much because he's a git. The fact he's been doing gittish things for years even before entering parliament does slightly indicate his behaviour may not be all down to the pressure of the job.

    pressure of the job LOL
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.

    I just don’t see how that works. Anything but No Deal is a gift to Farage.

    The threat of Farage is grossly overstated if Brexit is delivered. No doubt there will be moans of servitude etc. Few will pay attention having never got the details. I am reminded of Palmerston's description of the Schleswig-Holstein question
    "“Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business—the Prince Consort, who is dead—a German professor, who has gone mad—and I, who have forgotten all about it."

    So let it be with Brexit. Of course if it is not delivered that is a whole other ball game.

    I think you significantly under-estimate the appetite for betrayal that exists in England. Given the demonstrable appetite there is for it in Scotland that surprises me!

    Principle is often used as a reason for betrayal.
    Are you suggesting it is a principal reason?

    Pause.

    Ah, my coat...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,683
    JackW said:

    @Big_G_NorthWales

    After your considerable success n shedding the pounds I think you are posting under false pretences and should now be :

    @Not_Nearly_So_Big_G_NorthWales

    Medium G even
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,883

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.

    I just don’t see how that works. Anything but No Deal is a gift to Farage.

    The threat of Farage is grossly overstated if Brexit is delivered. No doubt there will be moans of servitude etc. Few will pay attention having never got the details. I am reminded of Palmerston's description of the Schleswig-Holstein question
    "“Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business—the Prince Consort, who is dead—a German professor, who has gone mad—and I, who have forgotten all about it."

    So let it be with Brexit. Of course if it is not delivered that is a whole other ball game.

    I think you significantly under-estimate the appetite for betrayal that exists in England. Given the demonstrable appetite there is for it in Scotland that surprises me!

    Maybe we have just learned to ignore their whingeing.

    That will keep you sane, to be sure, but politically it works. People like to feel betrayed. Any deal from here will be gold-dust for Farage. On that basis I just don’t see how No Deal is avoidable. The Tories are now the BXP. Any deviation from that and they lose. On that HYUFD is 100% correct.

    But will Big G resign?
    I have affirmed on many occasions I resign on a no deal.
    You also said you'd resign if Boris became leader so we expect this principled stand to go way the of the last one.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    edited July 2019
    Rawnsley on a Bozo GE:

    ”My hunch is that he is extremely scared by the idea. Like many of his kind, outward bravado is the bluffer’s mask on a pulsating mass of insecurities.”

    Just because Bozo has sacked everyone who used to hate him (when it didn’t matter to their careers), he’s being described as bold. But he isn’t bold, he’s a coward who has just spent a month hiding behind the sofa avoiding the media. If he were brave, he’d be willing to appoint capable intelligent people whether they liked him or not.

    If he were bold, he’d be here in the town square meeting and greeting. That he is staying away speaks volumes.

    Rawnsley concludes that Bozo is petrified by an election but that it may nevertheless be unavoidable.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/28/mr-johnson-swears-off-early-election-sweaty-aroma-says-otherwise
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.

    I just don’t see how that works. Anything but No Deal is a gift to Farage.

    The threat of Farage is grossly overstated if Brexit is delivered. No doubt there will be moans of servitude etc. Few will pay attention having never got the details. I am reminded of Palmerston's description of the Schleswig-Holstein question
    "“Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business—the Prince Consort, who is dead—a German professor, who has gone mad—and I, who have forgotten all about it."

    So let it be with Brexit. Of course if it is not delivered that is a whole other ball game.
    Brexit never will be "delivered". There will be a state of permanent negotiation, Deal or no. Negotiation here means the EU making a demand and the UK either quickly saying Yes or getting into a debilitating argument about it. One example of the hundreds that will come up is that the EU will demand access to UK fishing on essentially current terms. This is a high priority item for several EU countries.

    Plenty of scope for Farage, I think.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    malcolmg said:

    JackW said:

    @Big_G_NorthWales

    After your considerable success n shedding the pounds I think you are posting under false pretences and should now be :

    @Not_Nearly_So_Big_G_NorthWales

    Medium G even
    Good morning Malc.

    Hope all is well and as far as my weight loss is concerned I have to say it has seen a great improvement in my general health and activity.

    I recommend to everyone who is overweight to 'bite the bullet' and shed the kilos (pounds) and be amazed at the results
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.

    I just don’t see how that works. Anything but No Deal is a gift to Farage.

    The threat of Farage is grossly overstated if Brexit is delivered. No doubt there will be moans of servitude etc. Few will pay attention having never got the details. I am reminded of Palmerston's description of the Schleswig-Holstein question
    "“Only three people have ever really understood the Schleswig-Holstein business—the Prince Consort, who is dead—a German professor, who has gone mad—and I, who have forgotten all about it."

    So let it be with Brexit. Of course if it is not delivered that is a whole other ball game.

    I think you significantly under-estimate the appetite for betrayal that exists in England. Given the demonstrable appetite there is for it in Scotland that surprises me!

    Maybe we have just learned to ignore their whingeing.

    That will keep you sane, to be sure, but politically it works. People like to feel betrayed. Any deal from here will be gold-dust for Farage. On that basis I just don’t see how No Deal is avoidable. The Tories are now the BXP. Any deviation from that and they lose. On that HYUFD is 100% correct.

    But will Big G resign?
    I have affirmed on many occasions I resign on a no deal.
    You also said you'd resign if Boris became leader so we expect this principled stand to go way the of the last one.
    You do not judge my integrity
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    malcolmg said:

    One thing I'd like to say about this situation: we need to be careful that this does not further stigmatise mental health issues. In O’Mara's case, his issues have led him to act in very unsuitable (and nasty) ways towards others, but that's far from the case for all sufferers.

    Having said that, I'd also query how much his issues are down to mental health issues, and how much because he's a git. The fact he's been doing gittish things for years even before entering parliament does slightly indicate his behaviour may not be all down to the pressure of the job.

    pressure of the job LOL
    The pressure has arisen from his failure to do the job being exposed in the media.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    JackW said:

    @Big_G_NorthWales

    After your considerable success n shedding the pounds I think you are posting under false pretences and should now be :

    @Not_Nearly_So_Big_G_NorthWales

    Thanks Jack but I have been known as Big G for decades.

    But your suggestion is appreciated

    Perhaps you can be Big G in an ironic sense? Like Little John was really tall.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    edited July 2019

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.
    How many Spartans are in cabinet? Is it just Priti Patel? Presumably she would resign if Bozo tried to reheat May's deal.
    Dominic Cummings has sidelined the 'Spartans' but the cabinet includes the chairman and other influential members of the ERG

    It is reported that Cummings wants a deal and I expect his skills will see a deal delivered in time

    I am pleased with the Boris bounce but I have a deep unease about where this is going. For now I am content that Boris is laying out a popular manifesto and is attacking labour in it's heartlands.

    I do think labour have a very big 'Corbyn' problem but I do not see a change this side of a GE
    Politics is more febrile right now than I can ever recall. Even the days of "who runs Britain" in the early 70s didn't feel quite like this although that was probably the closest with 2 vociferously opposed factions who could see nothing in the position of the other.

    I want a deal and Brexit. I had almost given up believing that could be achieved but I now have a feint hope again after the ineptitude of May that it can be delivered. I think/hope that Boris is still being underestimated. We shall see.

    I find the choice between no deal and revoke very difficult. Both are highly sub optimal and I would find it hard to support any party that delivered either. It would be a failure of government.

    I also believe strongly in fiscal rectitude. That doesn't seem to be on offer at all but is probably a secondary consideration at this point.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    IanB2 said:

    JackW said:

    @Big_G_NorthWales

    After your considerable success n shedding the pounds I think you are posting under false pretences and should now be :

    @Not_Nearly_So_Big_G_NorthWales

    Thanks Jack but I have been known as Big G for decades.

    But your suggestion is appreciated

    Perhaps you can be Big G in an ironic sense? Like Little John was really tall.
    Good point
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.
    How many Spartans are in cabinet? Is it just Priti Patel? Presumably she would resign if Bozo tried to reheat May's deal.
    Dominic Cummings has sidelined the 'Spartans' but the cabinet includes the chairman and other influential members of the ERG

    It is reported that Cummings wants a deal and I expect his skills will see a deal delivered in time

    I am pleased with the Boris bounce but I have a deep unease about where this is going. For now I am content that Boris is laying out a popular manifesto and is attacking labour in it's heartlands.

    I do think labour have a very big 'Corbyn' problem but I do not see a change this side of a GE
    Politics is more febrile right now than I can ever recall. Even the days of "who runs Britain" in the early 70s didn't feel quite like this although that was probably the closest with 2 vociferously opposed factions who could see nothing in the position of the other.

    I want a deal and Brexit. I had almost given up believing that could be achieved but I now have a feint hope again after the ineptitude of May that it can be delivered. I think/hope that Boris is still being underestimated. We shall see.

    I find the choice between no deal and revoke very difficult. Both are highly sub optimal and I would find it hard to support any party that delivered either. It would be a failure of government.

    I also believe strongly in fiscal rectitude. That doesn't seem to be on offer at all but is probably a secondary consideration at this point.
    I think we are much on the same page
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.
    How many Spartans are in cabinet? Is it just Priti Patel? Presumably she would resign if Bozo tried to reheat May's deal.
    Dominic Cummings has sidelined the 'Spartans' but the cabinet includes the chairman and other influential members of the ERG

    It is reported that Cummings wants a deal and I expect his skills will see a deal delivered in time

    I am pleased with the Boris bounce but I have a deep unease about where this is going. For now I am content that Boris is laying out a popular manifesto and is attacking labour in it's heartlands.

    I do think labour have a very big 'Corbyn' problem but I do not see a change this side of a GE
    Politics is more febrile right now than I can ever recall. Even the days of "who runs Britain" in the early 70s didn't feel quite like this although that was probably the closest with 2 vociferously opposed factions who could see nothing in the position of the other.

    I want a deal and Brexit. I had almost given up believing that could be achieved but I now have a feint hope again after the ineptitude of May that it can be delivered. I think/hope that Boris is still being underestimated. We shall see.

    I find the choice between no deal and revoke very difficult. Both are highly sub optimal and I would find it hard to support any party that delivered either. It would be a failure of government.

    I also believe strongly in fiscal rectitude. That doesn't seem to be on offer at all but is probably a secondary consideration at this point.
    Sadly feint may indeed be the word.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "No-deal Brexit now 'assumed' by government, says Gove"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49141375

    FPT:

    I reckon Gove's talk of working on the basis of No Deal is just part of a softening up exercise to allow Bozo to bring May's Deal by Another Name (Maydan Brexit) back to Parliament with the hope of ramming it through.
    Agreed, the Commons is going to be presented with deal or no deal. The deal will basically be May's deal and if they are persuaded that no deal is a genuine threat then it may well pass. May herself was never even remotely credible about this which allowed remainers to oppose everything without consequence.
    Let's hope no MPs read PB or they will be alerted to this cunning plan.
This discussion has been closed.