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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited August 2019

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584
    The First Amendment means that not a lot will be done. And almost certainly less than not a lot, under President Trump.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    Yup. The Religious Right flexing its muscles.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    Alistair said:

    Demographics are interesting

    https://twitter.com/tristangrayedi/status/1158274189528371205?s=19

    Absolutely no class divide.

    And this is before Scotland is dragged out of the EU against its will by its deranged neighbour to the south. I was pro-union in 2014 (although living in England I have no vote) but would passionately support independence now. Brexit has proven that the union is damaging to Scotland's national interest. The economic transition will be tough, but probably worth it in the long term to preserve our place as a modern European economy and escape the lunatics in England.
    The other point is that there would be a degree of grudging empathy and hence more goodwill for a Scotland leaving the union because of Brexit among remainers, that wouldn't have been there had Scotland voted for Indy the last time. This might make wrestling with the very complicated issues a separation would throw up a little easier.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Boris with his majority of one ?

    You are drifting into major league fantasy.
    On current Yougov and Mori polls Boris will have a majority by the end of autumn
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    Either you have developed a taste for absurdist satire, or you've gone slightly nuts.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,541
    Foxy said:

    If you want an early-morning laugh, may I point you at the following Spectator article on HS2:
    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/there-is-a-far-better-option-than-hs2-and-it-already-exists/

    In which Ross Clark tries to state that reopening the Great Central Railway would be a cheaper and better way of doing HS2.

    Gems such as "But for much of its length the Great Central could be reinstated with little earth-moving, tunnelling and without the need to demolish residential properties or foul sites of special scientific interest." rather ignores that vast stretches of the route through Nottingham and Leicester have been obliterated - yet alone other problematic areas such as a very popular preserved railway on the trackbed between Leicester and Loughborough (and soon Nottingham).

    To his credit, he does acknowledge that " There is a question of what would happen at the London end — whether to share existing tracks to Paddington or Marylebone, or to tunnel to Euston" - without actually saying that would mean a brand-new line all the way south from Aylesbury, and all the expense of creating the extra capacity at the London end. In other words, a brand new railway line into London.

    He also doesn't notice that the line doesn't go anywhere near Birmingham, Leeds or Manchester - one of the major problems that saw the line shut in the 1960s. It could get to Manchester by rebuilding something like the Woodhead route (and good luck with that).

    It is another typical HS2-wrecking motion: the idea that some handwavium 'solution' will solve the problem when it doesn't - and knowing that for that reason their alternative will never happen.

    There is something to be said for a new line that actually stops along the way so people can get on and off. Not least this might make it popular along the route.
    I fear that's naive. You have two options for stations: out them in the centre of cities, where they are at the moment, or out in the wilds as parkways. The former is massively expensive and disruptive, as you need to create new / upgrade new lines to the station, and to rebuild stations (and the stations often need to be expanded as well). Parkways are cheaper, but lead to complaints that they're in the middle of nowhere.

    Basically: NIMBYs are NIMBYs. They'll complain whatever.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    edited August 2019
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    You are so loopy and post things with so little grasp of sensibility or reality that I wonder how the Epping Tories put up with you. Are they all as mad or are you just waiting to be found out?

    Your declaring war on Iran was bad enough.

    The parishioners of Epping had a lucky escape IMO.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited August 2019

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    52% 48% is not much really even and including Don't Knows there is no majority for independence at all
    Is it your considered opinion that 52:48 is really even? Because if it is, I’ve got a few thousand of your posts I’d like to discuss with you.
    Remain had bigger poll leads thsn that even on eve of EUref.

    In 1995 in Canada in the second Quebec independence poll Yes led most final polls excluding Don't Knows but No narrowly won 51% to 49% as Don't Knows went No
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited August 2019
    https://twitter.com/LordAshcroft/status/1158260538947907584?s=20

    Scots also divided on whether to stay in the EU or UK, no majority over 50% for either, Scottish Remainers back staying in the EU but even more Scottish Leavers back staying in the UK
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    You think these are positive examples to follow?

    It would devastate me if the UK were to break up and I hope it never happens, but assuming you are serious do you never consider if the price of certain actions is too high?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    You are so loopy and post things with so little grasp of sensibility or reality that I wonder how the Epping Tories put up with you. Are they all as mad or are you just waiting to be found out?
    It is not loopy, it is exactly the policy the Conservative Spanish government pursued in Catalonia.

    It may have problems but it is an option
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,915
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    I don't think the British Army has enough English regiments to put down the civil insurrection that you are talking about. But sure, give it a go if you're deranged enough.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited August 2019
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    Either you have developed a taste for absurdist satire, or you've gone slightly nuts.
    Its tempting to think people say things for the purpose of amusement and trolling, but I fear the more common experience is they mean what they say. Particularly when it aligns with other expressed views.

    Describing crackdowns in Scotland as an option which merely has some problems is a sign the Union is indeed dead.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    You are so loopy and post things with so little grasp of sensibility or reality that I wonder how the Epping Tories put up with you. Are they all as mad or are you just waiting to be found out?
    It is not loopy, it is exactly the policy the Conservative Spanish government pursued in Catalonia.

    It may have problems but it is an option
    LOL @ "It may have problems"

    As an exemplar of what has become of the previously sane rational and, well, conservative Conservative Party, you are priceless.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Within the secondary questions, the most pertinent finding is that a full 40% of previous Indy No voters believe that Brexit strengthens the case for independence.

    Which is remarkable, not least because whilst the consequences of Brexit do create arguments for Sindy, the experience and process of Brexit throws up some considerable arguments against.

    For HY, the finding is not that Scottish Con voters are softening towards independence, but that everyone else is. I said some time ago that Brexit could revive anti-Tory tactical voting in Scotland and weaken anti-SNP tactical voting, and this poll provides evidence that the political climate is heading in that direction; a trend that the ascent of Bozo will surely accelerate.
    I have been talking about Exit for at least a year. The Scottish issue is going to come to match the Irish border soon as a major problem. The Tory mps in Scotland were not elected on a brexit mandate but a mandate to protect the union. This they are failing to do. The same as the DUP.

    There is considerable disquiet in the Scottish Tory party about the actions of their mps. As a general election looms expect the Scottish tory mps to start ignoring Boris and focussing on trying to keep their jobs

    A Scottish hard border has the same administrative complexities as an Irish one, but the political sensitivities are less, as the Good Friday Agreement doesn't apply.

    I think that the only viable Brexit is an England and Wales one. This shifts the Leave/Remain split closer to 60/40.

    Yep, I agree. Either way, though, we are living through the end of the UK - killed by the former Conservative and Unionist Party. For Johnson to lose Scotland will be a humiliation beyond compare. It will be what he is remembered for above all else. Delicious.

    If the only way that the Union can be maintained is by electing eternal centre-left, pro-EU governments, then that is not really fair towards the English.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    @IanB2

    The only place that would work on Phase 1 would be just outside Banbury, which is also the halfway point.

    Otherwise you have Coventry, Leamington and Solihull served by Toton, and then Aylesbury where I can't imagine there would be much gain from using high speed rather than the existing Chiltern service.

    And stops can always be added later if there is demand. The line is the difficult part of the building process.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited August 2019

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    I don't think the British Army has enough English regiments to put down the civil insurrection that you are talking about. But sure, give it a go if you're deranged enough.
    Spain did it with the Civil Guard, it did not even need the Spanish army.

    Probably riot police and special forces would do it if the government went down that route.

    In Hong Kong so far China has just used riot police against demonstrators not the tanks as in 1989
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    That would be fantastic. Westminster would be (rightly) destroyed in the ensuing civil disorder.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Alistair said:

    Demographics are interesting

    https://twitter.com/tristangrayedi/status/1158274189528371205?s=19

    Absolutely no class divide.

    Those horrible anti-nationalist boomers...
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,915
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    I don't think the British Army has enough English regiments to put down the civil insurrection that you are talking about. But sure, give it a go if you're deranged enough.
    Spain did it with the Civil Guard, it did not even need the Spanish army.

    Probably riot police and special forces would do it if the government went down that route.

    In Hong Kong so far China has just used riot police against demonstrators not the tanks as in 1989
    Ha ha you think there is a single police force in England that has any riot police to spare? I haven't seen a police officer in my neighbourhood of London in about four years. Special forces? You want Andy McNab and pals to arrest Nicola Sturgeon and bundle her into an unmarked car? This is great Monday morning entertainment, please keep it up.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Within the secondary questions, the most pertinent finding is that a full 40% of previous Indy No voters believe that Brexit strengthens the case for independence.

    Which is remarkable, not least because whilst the consequences of Brexit do create arguments for Sindy, the experience and process of Brexit throws up some considerable arguments against.

    For HY, the finding is not that Scottish Con voters are softening towards independence, but that everyone else is. I said some time ago that Brexit could revive anti-Tory tactical voting in Scotland and weaken anti-SNP tactical voting, and this poll provides evidence that the political climate is heading in that direction; a trend that the ascent of Bozo will surely accelerate.
    I have been talking about Exit for at least a year. The Scottish issue is going to come to match the Irish border soon as a major problem. The Tory mps in Scotland were not elected on a brexit mandate but a mandate to protect the union. This they are failing to do. The same as the DUP.

    There is considerable disquiet in the Scottish Tory party about the actions of their mps. As a general election looms expect the Scottish tory mps to start ignoring Boris and focussing on trying to keep their jobs

    A Scottish hard border has the same administrative complexities as an Irish one, but the political sensitivities are less, as the Good Friday Agreement doesn't apply.

    I think that the only viable Brexit is an England and Wales one. This shifts the Leave/Remain split closer to 60/40.

    Yep, I agree. Either way, though, we are living through the end of the UK - killed by the former Conservative and Unionist Party. For Johnson to lose Scotland will be a humiliation beyond compare. It will be what he is remembered for above all else. Delicious.

    If the only way that the Union can be maintained is by electing eternal centre-left, pro-EU governments, then that is not really fair towards the English.
    You could try a centre-right, pro-EU government. Perhaps we’ll only get back to that after the Union is dissolved.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,915
    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Demographics are interesting

    https://twitter.com/tristangrayedi/status/1158274189528371205?s=19

    Absolutely no class divide.

    Those horrible anti-nationalist boomers...
    Boomers - on the wrong side of every political debate.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    I don't think the British Army has enough English regiments to put down the civil insurrection that you are talking about. But sure, give it a go if you're deranged enough.
    Spain did it with the Civil Guard, it did not even need the Spanish army.

    Probably riot police and special forces would do it if the government went down that route.

    In Hong Kong so far China has just used riot police against demonstrators not the tanks as in 1989
    Ha ha you think there is a single police force in England that has any riot police to spare? I haven't seen a police officer in my neighbourhood of London in about four years. Special forces? You want Andy McNab and pals to arrest Nicola Sturgeon and bundle her into an unmarked car? This is great Monday morning entertainment, please keep it up.
    I wonder which government controls the fully merged single Scottish police force
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    edited August 2019
    HYUFD said:
    Scots Labour are a grumpy lot, but hating Boris and Farage but willing to put up with everyone else, and liking the LibDem leaders as much as their own, is a hopeful straw in the wind.

    Labour doesn't really have a role in Scottish politics now, anyway. SNP are pro-Indy pro-EU. Tories are anti-Indy and anti-EU. LibDems are anti-Indy and pro-EU. Pro-Indy and anti-EU appears a niche position that is vacant. Labour doesn't have a space.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Demographics are interesting

    https://twitter.com/tristangrayedi/status/1158274189528371205?s=19

    Absolutely no class divide.

    Those horrible anti-nationalist boomers...
    Boomers - on the wrong side of every political debate.
    Were they on the wrong side in 2014?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Within the secondary questions, the most pertinent finding is that a full 40% of previous Indy No voters believe that Brexit strengthens the case for independence.

    Which is remarkable, not least because whilst the consequences of Brexit do create arguments for Sindy, the experience and process of Brexit throws up some considerable arguments against.

    For HY, the finding is not that Scottish Con voters are softening towards independence, but that everyone else is. I said some time ago that Brexit could revive anti-Tory tactical voting in Scotland and weaken anti-SNP tactical voting, and this poll provides evidence that the political climate is heading in that direction; a trend that the ascent of Bozo will surely accelerate.
    I have been talking about Exit for at least a year. The Scottish issue is going to come to match the Irish border soon as a major problem. The Tory mps in Scotland were not elected on a brexit mandate but a mandate to protect the union. This they are failing to do. The same as the DUP.

    There is considerable disquiet in the Scottish Tory party about the actions of their mps. As a general election looms expect the Scottish tory mps to start ignoring Boris and focussing on trying to keep their jobs

    A Scottish hard border has the same administrative complexities as an Irish one, but the political sensitivities are less, as the Good Friday Agreement doesn't apply.

    I think that the only viable Brexit is an England and Wales one. This shifts the Leave/Remain split closer to 60/40.

    Yep, I agree. Either way, though, we are living through the end of the UK - killed by the former Conservative and Unionist Party. For Johnson to lose Scotland will be a humiliation beyond compare. It will be what he is remembered for above all else. Delicious.

    If the only way that the Union can be maintained is by electing eternal centre-left, pro-EU governments, then that is not really fair towards the English.
    You could try a centre-right, pro-EU government. Perhaps we’ll only get back to that after the Union is dissolved.
    I think that ship has sailed. People on the right just don't like the EU very much.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Demographics are interesting

    https://twitter.com/tristangrayedi/status/1158274189528371205?s=19

    Absolutely no class divide.

    Those horrible anti-nationalist boomers...
    They “believe in Britain”. The common thread between that kind of unionism and English Brexiteers is an outsized view of the UK’s power as a union state.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,541
    IanB2 said:


    I never mentioned local services - they'd be high speed trains that stop, just like the Eurostar stops now and again at Ashford and Ebbsfleet. The schedule of the express train behind shouldn't be affected.

    (Snip)

    This is a misunderstanding of how high-speed services work. Every stop reduces the capacity of a line: unless you build adjacent lines (i.e. quadruple) to allow for acceleration and deceleration ('slow lines'). Hence a stopping train delays expresses until it can get up to speed - and that is many miles.

    Another big issue is capacity at the London end - assuming that the stopping services will be extra to the expresses. Although the core network is double track, some stretches of HS2 are being built as four-track, and AFAICR one stretch even has six tracks at a junction.

    As others have said, HS2 will allow many more services to run on the current network - including hopefully stopping services. There's a document about the effects on the wider network - although as we've seen, many of those against HS2 are ill-inclined to read documents that go against their preconcieved stupidity. ;)
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    I don't think the British Army has enough English regiments to put down the civil insurrection that you are talking about. But sure, give it a go if you're deranged enough.
    Spain did it with the Civil Guard, it did not even need the Spanish army.

    Probably riot police and special forces would do it if the government went down that route.

    In Hong Kong so far China has just used riot police against demonstrators not the tanks as in 1989
    It is genuinely disturbing that you advocate such extreme measures. The Scots would riot as a nation if you tried that, and any sane person in the other home nations would join them.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    I don't think the British Army has enough English regiments to put down the civil insurrection that you are talking about. But sure, give it a go if you're deranged enough.
    Spain did it with the Civil Guard, it did not even need the Spanish army.

    Probably riot police and special forces would do it if the government went down that route.

    In Hong Kong so far China has just used riot police against demonstrators not the tanks as in 1989
    Ha ha you think there is a single police force in England that has any riot police to spare? I haven't seen a police officer in my neighbourhood of London in about four years. Special forces? You want Andy McNab and pals to arrest Nicola Sturgeon and bundle her into an unmarked car? This is great Monday morning entertainment, please keep it up.
    I wonder which government controls the fully merged single Scottish police force
    I suppose the problem would be if the Scottish government organised a pro-independence referendum, and councils in the Borders and North East refused to participate in it.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Demographics are interesting

    https://twitter.com/tristangrayedi/status/1158274189528371205?s=19

    Absolutely no class divide.

    Those horrible anti-nationalist boomers...
    They “believe in Britain”. The common thread between that kind of unionism and English Brexiteers is an outsized view of the UK’s power as a union state.
    How horrible that they should believe in their own country.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Alistair said:

    Demographics are interesting

    https://twitter.com/tristangrayedi/status/1158274189528371205?s=19

    Absolutely no class divide.

    Those horrible anti-nationalist boomers...
    Boomers - on the wrong side of every political debate.
    Were they on the wrong side in 2014?
    Yes. If we’d had a Yes vote, we in the UK could have gone through this period of introspection without becoming a laughing stock in the eyes of the world.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    Alistair said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Within the secondary questions, the most pertinent finding is that a full 40% of previous Indy No voters believe that Brexit strengthens the case for independence.

    Which is remarkable, not least because whilst the consequences of Brexit do create arguments for Sindy, the experience and process of Brexit throws up some considerable arguments against.

    For HY, the finding is not that Scottish Con voters are softening towards independence, but that everyone else is. I said some time ago that Brexit could revive anti-Tory tactical voting in Scotland and weaken anti-SNP tactical voting, and this poll provides evidence that the political climate is heading in that direction; a trend that the ascent of Bozo will surely accelerate.
    I have been talking about Exit for at least a year. The Scottish issue is going to come to match the Irish border soon as a major problem. The Tory mps in Scotland were not elected on a brexit mandate but a mandate to protect the union. This they are failing to do. The same as the DUP.

    There is considerable disquiet in the Scottish Tory party about the actions of their mps. As a general election looms expect the Scottish tory mps to start ignoring Boris and focussing on trying to keep their jobs

    A Scottish hard border has the same administrative complexities as an Irish one, but the political sensitivities are less, as the Good Friday Agreement doesn't apply.

    I think that the only viable Brexit is an England and Wales one. This shifts the Leave/Remain split closer to 60/40.
    A Scottish hard border would be much easier technically than a Northern Irish hard border. It is shorter, less populated and with far fewer crossings.
    It is genuinely surprising how few roads cross the Scotland - England border.
    It is a different country.
  • houndtanghoundtang Posts: 450
    If the UK leaving the EU is an apparent logistical nightmare then Scotland leaving the UK after 300 years will surely be a bigger one. Small example - I had to contact HMRC Self Assessment the other day - it's based in Glasgow. How many other UK government agencies are based in Scotland? How will that work if suddenly they are in a foreign country? How many jobs lost in Scotland if all the functions move south?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Matthew Goodwin surveys the lie of the land:

    https://mailchi.mp/ff175a54afc4/boris-wins-big-right

    What many Conservatives overlook is the critical point that while lots of Labour Leavers agree with them on the cultural axis -on Brexit, immigration, and also crime- they remain deeply dubious and distrustful of 'the Tories' on the economic axis -about whether they really are on the side of the people. That strategy was enough to fend off Farage and I'd expect Labour to roll this out across their heartlands against the Tories.
  • MangoMango Posts: 1,013



    well then if its a boost why are people moaning ? Good news.

    1. The Tories pretending to give a toss about the areas they've shafted the most over the last 40 years is pretty nauseating.
    2. All hail the power of patronage. They're making announcements like the drunken governor of a Russian oblast on his daughter's wedding day.
    3. They already had the money anyway.
    4. Brexit. It is crap.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    edited August 2019
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    52% 48% is not much gap really in terms of poll lead and including Don't Knows there is no majority for independence at all.

    It shows even with No Deal Brexit there is no guarantee Scots would back independence
    Are you the same HYUFD who normally goes about lecturing us about the "people's verdict". So now you add the "don't knows". In 2016, with the don't knows/not voting, Remain won by 59:41 [or similar]. I think turnout was 79%.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Scott_P said:

    Sources told the Financial Times last night that Mr Cummings was already planning the Facebook campaign for a “people versus the politicians’ election”.

    On a visit today to Lincolnshire, the area that recorded the highest Leave vote in 2016, the prime minister will announce extra money for upgrades for 20 hospitals or NHS trusts in England.

    In an apparent appeal to voters who have complained of being left behind, 12 of the hospitals or trusts receiving the funding are in areas that voted Leave. Government sources insisted that all the schemes were chosen on merit.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/boris-johnson-lays-ground-for-people-v-politicians-general-election-tf9v7nkg5

    https://twitter.com/janemerrick23/status/1158265687229550592

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1158265427421749248

    so less well off areas get a boost and the poshos are against it.
    That presumably is the narrative that is going to be pursued. Whether or not a 'posho' can be identified who is against it is neither here nor there.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Within the secondary questions, the most pertinent finding is that a full 40% of previous Indy No voters believe that Brexit strengthens the case for independence.

    Which is remarkable, not least because whilst the consequences of Brexit do create arguments for Sindy, the experience and process of Brexit throws up some considerable arguments against.

    For HY, the finding is not that Scottish Con voters are softening towards independence, but that everyone else is. I said some time ago that Brexit could revive anti-Tory tactical voting in Scotland and weaken anti-SNP tactical voting, and this poll provides evidence that the political climate is heading in that direction; a trend that the ascent of Bozo will surely accelerate.
    I have been talking about Exit for at least a year. The Scottish issue is going to come to match the Irish border soon as a major problem. The Tory mps in Scotland were not elected on a brexit mandate but a mandate to protect the union. This they are failing to do. The same as the DUP.

    There is considerable disquiet in the Scottish Tory party about the actions of their mps. As a general election looms expect the Scottish tory mps to start ignoring Boris and focussing on trying to keep their jobs

    A Scottish hard border has the same administrative complexities as an Irish one, but the political sensitivities are less, as the Good Friday Agreement doesn't apply.

    I think that the only viable Brexit is an England and Wales one. This shifts the Leave/Remain split closer to 60/40.
    A Scottish hard border would be much easier technically than a Northern Irish hard border. It is shorter, less populated and with far fewer crossings.
    The reason being England and Scotland are two countries. Ireland is one country.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,541
    To follow on from my last post, it appears each station would need 4km of quadruple track before a station to allow for deceleration, and over 7km after to allow for acceleration to line speed.

    This means an 11-12km stretch of quadruple track needs to be created.

    This can be reduced (and indeed may need to be, because AIU I there are no points than can handle the maximum line speed meaning that trains would need to slow *before* they reach the slow lines), although that would also reduce capacity.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    You are suggesting that we should model our response to Scottish Nationalists on the behaviour of a brutal dictatorship?

    Have you gone completely insane?
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    houndtang said:

    If the UK leaving the EU is an apparent logistical nightmare then Scotland leaving the UK after 300 years will surely be a bigger one. Small example - I had to contact HMRC Self Assessment the other day - it's based in Glasgow. How many other UK government agencies are based in Scotland? How will that work if suddenly they are in a foreign country? How many jobs lost in Scotland if all the functions move south?

    Nissan and suppliers will move North for a start.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    You are suggesting that we should model our response to Scottish Nationalists on the behaviour of a brutal dictatorship?

    Have you gone completely insane?
    I hope he hasn't got any political ambitions, as his posts could prove significantly career limiting. He might be well advised to start thinking about what poet he wants to reappear as.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    Matthew Goodwin surveys the lie of the land:

    https://mailchi.mp/ff175a54afc4/boris-wins-big-right

    What many Conservatives overlook is the critical point that while lots of Labour Leavers agree with them on the cultural axis -on Brexit, immigration, and also crime- they remain deeply dubious and distrustful of 'the Tories' on the economic axis -about whether they really are on the side of the people. That strategy was enough to fend off Farage and I'd expect Labour to roll this out across their heartlands against the Tories.

    There are Labour seats that are unloseable. But, there are others where the Labour majorities have been heading South for years.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    You seem to have a noticeable sympathy with Fascism.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Within the secondary questions, the most pertinent finding is that a full 40% of previous Indy No voters believe that Brexit strengthens the case for independence.

    Which is remarkable, not least because whilst the consequences of Brexit do create arguments for Sindy, the experience and process of Brexit throws up some considerable arguments against.

    For HY, the finding is not that Scottish Con voters are softening towards independence, but that everyone else is. I said some time ago that Brexit could revive anti-Tory tactical voting in Scotland and weaken anti-SNP tactical voting, and this poll provides evidence that the political climate is heading in that direction; a trend that the ascent of Bozo will surely accelerate.
    I have been talking about Exit for at least a year. The Scottish issue is going to come to match the Irish border soon as a major problem. The Tory mps in Scotland were not elected on a brexit mandate but a mandate to protect the union. This they are failing to do. The same as the DUP.

    There is considerable disquiet in the Scottish Tory party about the actions of their mps. As a general election looms expect the Scottish tory mps to start ignoring Boris and focussing on trying to keep their jobs

    A Scottish hard border has the same administrative complexities as an Irish one, but the political sensitivities are less, as the Good Friday Agreement doesn't apply.

    I think that the only viable Brexit is an England and Wales one. This shifts the Leave/Remain split closer to 60/40.

    Yep, I agree. Either way, though, we are living through the end of the UK - killed by the former Conservative and Unionist Party. For Johnson to lose Scotland will be a humiliation beyond compare. It will be what he is remembered for above all else. Delicious.

    If the only way that the Union can be maintained is by electing eternal centre-left, pro-EU governments, then that is not really fair towards the English.
    Almost as ignorant as HYUFD.
    No wonder increasing numbers of Scots want independence.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    52% 48% is not much really even and including Don't Knows there is no majority for independence at all
    Is it your considered opinion that 52:48 is really even? Because if it is, I’ve got a few thousand of your posts I’d like to discuss with you.
    LOL yes did that just happen?

    @HYUFD not hit the coffee yet presumably.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    To follow on from my last post, it appears each station would need 4km of quadruple track before a station to allow for deceleration, and over 7km after to allow for acceleration to line speed.

    This means an 11-12km stretch of quadruple track needs to be created.

    This can be reduced (and indeed may need to be, because AIU I there are no points than can handle the maximum line speed meaning that trains would need to slow *before* they reach the slow lines), although that would also reduce capacity.

    That does make me wonder somewhat what the point of going right into Birmingham is rather than just running to Toton, but I suppose there will be trains that stop and Birmingham and trains that stop at Toton, rather than both.

    South of Birmingham I just can't see the justification for it. Oxford, Aylesbury and Banbury are already well served by fast trains from parkway stations. North of Birmingham where distances are greater it might be a little different, but plenty of expresses already run with only two or three stops from Euston to Manchester and they seem pretty busy to me.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    edited August 2019

    To follow on from my last post, it appears each station would need 4km of quadruple track before a station to allow for deceleration, and over 7km after to allow for acceleration to line speed.

    This means an 11-12km stretch of quadruple track needs to be created.

    This can be reduced (and indeed may need to be, because AIU I there are no points than can handle the maximum line speed meaning that trains would need to slow *before* they reach the slow lines), although that would also reduce capacity.

    I don't think there's much lead into and out of Ashford International:

    https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/xtd4#T_ASHFKY

    Just to add. I've been on a Brussels train stopped at Ashford and had a Paris train come flying past on the fast line.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    You are suggesting that we should model our response to Scottish Nationalists on the behaviour of a brutal dictatorship?

    Have you gone completely insane?
    I hope he hasn't got any political ambitions, as his posts could prove significantly career limiting. He might be well advised to start thinking about what poet he wants to reappear as.
    He's already coming across as a bit Samuel Taylor Coleridge.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited August 2019

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    You are suggesting that we should model our response to Scottish Nationalists on the behaviour of a brutal dictatorship?

    Have you gone completely insane?
    No but we could follow the model of the former Popular Party Government in Spain dealing with Nationalists in Catalonia, the Popular Party being the Tories sister party
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,467

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    You seem to have a noticeable sympathy with Fascism.
    A thought I have been having for days.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    ydoethur said:

    To follow on from my last post, it appears each station would need 4km of quadruple track before a station to allow for deceleration, and over 7km after to allow for acceleration to line speed.

    This means an 11-12km stretch of quadruple track needs to be created.

    This can be reduced (and indeed may need to be, because AIU I there are no points than can handle the maximum line speed meaning that trains would need to slow *before* they reach the slow lines), although that would also reduce capacity.

    That does make me wonder somewhat what the point of going right into Birmingham is rather than just running to Toton, but I suppose there will be trains that stop and Birmingham and trains that stop at Toton, rather than both.

    South of Birmingham I just can't see the justification for it. Oxford, Aylesbury and Banbury are already well served by fast trains from parkway stations. North of Birmingham where distances are greater it might be a little different, but plenty of expresses already run with only two or three stops from Euston to Manchester and they seem pretty busy to me.
    I don't think you mean Toton at Birmingham. Toton is the Nottingham/Derby station for HS2.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:



    A Scottish hard border has the same administrative complexities as an Irish one, but the political sensitivities are less, as the Good Friday Agreement doesn't apply.

    I think that the only viable Brexit is an England and Wales one. This shifts the Leave/Remain split closer to 60/40.

    Yep, I agree. Either way, though, we are living through the end of the UK - killed by the former Conservative and Unionist Party. For Johnson to lose Scotland will be a humiliation beyond compare. It will be what he is remembered for above all else. Delicious.

    If the only way that the Union can be maintained is by electing eternal centre-left, pro-EU governments, then that is not really fair towards the English.
    You could try a centre-right, pro-EU government. Perhaps we’ll only get back to that after the Union is dissolved.
    I think that ship has sailed. People on the right just don't like the EU very much.
    No, that's not right. People who hate the EU with an unfathomable and visceral intensity have taken over the parties of the right. But their politics are no longer what one would call the traditional right wing politics of order, stability, economic competence or a steady hand, but that of unhinged populism seeking to destroy the existing civic structures.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    52% 48% is not much gap really in terms of poll lead and including Don't Knows there is no majority for independence at all.

    It shows even with No Deal Brexit there is no guarantee Scots would back independence
    Are you the same HYUFD who normally goes about lecturing us about the "people's verdict". So now you add the "don't knows". In 2016, with the don't knows/not voting, Remain won by 59:41 [or similar]. I think turnout was 79%.
    In 1995 in Canada in the second Quebec independence referendum (15 years after the first) Yes led most final polls but No won thanks to Don't Knows going their way
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    ydoethur said:

    To follow on from my last post, it appears each station would need 4km of quadruple track before a station to allow for deceleration, and over 7km after to allow for acceleration to line speed.

    This means an 11-12km stretch of quadruple track needs to be created.

    This can be reduced (and indeed may need to be, because AIU I there are no points than can handle the maximum line speed meaning that trains would need to slow *before* they reach the slow lines), although that would also reduce capacity.

    That does make me wonder somewhat what the point of going right into Birmingham is rather than just running to Toton, but I suppose there will be trains that stop and Birmingham and trains that stop at Toton, rather than both.

    South of Birmingham I just can't see the justification for it. Oxford, Aylesbury and Banbury are already well served by fast trains from parkway stations. North of Birmingham where distances are greater it might be a little different, but plenty of expresses already run with only two or three stops from Euston to Manchester and they seem pretty busy to me.
    I don't think you mean Toton at Birmingham. Toton is the Nottingham/Derby station for HS2.
    You're right. That will teach me to rely on anti-HS2 websites which are clearly run by morons who got confused and thoroughly confused me (not knowing much about Nottinghamshire). I meant Birmingham Interchange at Solihull.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    edited August 2019

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Within the secondary questions, the most pertinent finding is that a full 40% of previous Indy No voters believe that Brexit strengthens the case for independence.

    Which is remarkable, not least because whilst the consequences of Brexit do create arguments for Sindy, the experience and process of Brexit throws up some considerable arguments against.

    For HY, the finding is not that Scottish Con voters are softening towards independence, but that everyone else is. I said some time ago that Brexit could revive anti-Tory tactical voting in Scotland and weaken anti-SNP tactical voting, and this poll provides evidence that the political climate is heading in that direction; a trend that the ascent of Bozo will surely accelerate.
    I have been talking about Exit for at least a year. The Scottish issue is going to come to match the Irish border soon as a major problem. The Tory mps in Scotland were not elected on a brexit mandate but a mandate to protect the union. This they are failing to do. The same as the DUP.

    There is considerable disquiet in the Scottish Tory party about the actions of their mps. As a general election looms expect the Scottish tory mps to start ignoring Boris and focussing on trying to keep their jobs

    A Scottish hard border has the same administrative complexities as an Irish one, but the political sensitivities are less, as the Good Friday Agreement doesn't apply.

    I think that the only viable Brexit is an England and Wales one. This shifts the Leave/Remain split closer to 60/40.

    Yep, I agree. Either way, though, we are living through the end of the UK - killed by the former Conservative and Unionist Party. For Johnson to lose Scotland will be a humiliation beyond compare. It will be what he is remembered for above all else. Delicious.

    If the only way that the Union can be maintained is by electing eternal centre-left, pro-EU governments, then that is not really fair towards the English.
    Almost as ignorant as HYUFD.
    No wonder increasing numbers of Scots want independence.
    Please enlighten me.

    I can remember the argument being quite frequently made here, in 2014, that Scots just would not tolerate a Conservative government.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    That would be fantastic. Westminster would be (rightly) destroyed in the ensuing civil disorder.
    It is what Spain did in Catalonia and Madrid and the Cortez are still standing
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    You are suggesting that we should model our response to Scottish Nationalists on the behaviour of a brutal dictatorship?

    Have you gone completely insane?
    No but we could follow the model of the former Popular Party Government in Spain dealing with Nationalists in Catalonia, the Popular Party being the Tories sister party
    I would hope that under those circumstance, whatever vestigial support the Tory party had left would evaporate entirely and they would be consigned to the rubbish heap of history for good. Any party following the example of the PP in Spain deserves to be utterly destroyed.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    I don't think the British Army has enough English regiments to put down the civil insurrection that you are talking about. But sure, give it a go if you're deranged enough.
    Spain did it with the Civil Guard, it did not even need the Spanish army.

    Probably riot police and special forces would do it if the government went down that route.

    In Hong Kong so far China has just used riot police against demonstrators not the tanks as in 1989
    Ha ha you think there is a single police force in England that has any riot police to spare? I haven't seen a police officer in my neighbourhood of London in about four years. Special forces? You want Andy McNab and pals to arrest Nicola Sturgeon and bundle her into an unmarked car? This is great Monday morning entertainment, please keep it up.
    In Spain that is what Spanish civil guards did, nationalist leader Carlos Puigdemont fled into exile before they could arrest him
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    You are suggesting that we should model our response to Scottish Nationalists on the behaviour of a brutal dictatorship?

    Have you gone completely insane?
    No but we could follow the model of the former Popular Party Government in Spain dealing with Nationalists in Catalonia, the Popular Party being the Tories sister party
    I would hope that under those circumstance, whatever vestigial support the Tory party had left would evaporate entirely and they would be consigned to the rubbish heap of history for good. Any party following the example of the PP in Spain deserves to be utterly destroyed.
    If the Union can only be maintained by force, it's not worth maintaining.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    You are suggesting that we should model our response to Scottish Nationalists on the behaviour of a brutal dictatorship?

    Have you gone completely insane?
    No but we could follow the model of the former Popular Party Government in Spain dealing with Nationalists in Catalonia, the Popular Party being the Tories sister party
    I would hope that under those circumstance, whatever vestigial support the Tory party had left would evaporate entirely and they would be consigned to the rubbish heap of history for good. Any party following the example of the PP in Spain deserves to be utterly destroyed.
    I doubt it would the Tory Party and most Leavers (bar a few libertarians like you) ideally want Brexit and the Union
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong

    The Spanish police were enforcing court orders handed down by judges in Catalonia who had ruled that the referendum had been declared illegal. The violence was disgraceful and shamed Spain. That said, Catalonia is currently run by a separatist government and led by a separatist president.

    Catalonia's challenge is the Spanish constitution, which the vast majority of Catalans approved in a referendum. It states specifically that Spain's current geography can only be changed by the consent of the majority of Spaniards. To legally obtain independence the Catalans have to secure changes to the constitution.

    The same constitutional obstacles to Scottish independence do not exist in the UK. There is no need for Scotland to circumvent the law because there is no reason for Westminster to deny Scotland an independence referendum if that's in the SNP manifesto and the SNP win a majority at Holyrood.

  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    So... what flag should England and Wales have?

    Your avatar is a good start
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    You are suggesting that we should model our response to Scottish Nationalists on the behaviour of a brutal dictatorship?

    Have you gone completely insane?
    No but we could follow the model of the former Popular Party Government in Spain dealing with Nationalists in Catalonia, the Popular Party being the Tories sister party
    I would hope that under those circumstance, whatever vestigial support the Tory party had left would evaporate entirely and they would be consigned to the rubbish heap of history for good. Any party following the example of the PP in Spain deserves to be utterly destroyed.
    I doubt it would the Tory Party and most Leavers (bar a few libertarians like you) ideally want Brexit and the Union
    Mate, you are on fire this morning.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,010

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    52% 48% is not much gap really in terms of poll lead and including Don't Knows there is no majority for independence at all.

    It shows even with No Deal Brexit there is no guarantee Scots would back independence
    Are you the same HYUFD who normally goes about lecturing us about the "people's verdict".
    I assume there are several of them, working in shifts.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Brexit - and it didn’t have to be this way - can only succeed by trampling over a massive minority - maybe even a majority - of the public, subverting Parliament, ignoring two of the four nations, and betraying the interests of working people.

    It cannot succeed as a democratic project and so the tendency is for it to go a bit fascisty, or at least an angry and aggressive populism.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,010
    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    52% 48% is not much gap really in terms of poll lead and including Don't Knows there is no majority for independence at all.

    It shows even with No Deal Brexit there is no guarantee Scots would back independence
    Are you the same HYUFD who normally goes about lecturing us about the "people's verdict".
    I assume there are several of them, working in shifts.
    In fact, if the shifts are concurrent rather than consecutive, it would explain quite a lot.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    You are suggesting that we should model our response to Scottish Nationalists on the behaviour of a brutal dictatorship?

    Have you gone completely insane?
    No but we could follow the model of the former Popular Party Government in Spain dealing with Nationalists in Catalonia, the Popular Party being the Tories sister party
    I would hope that under those circumstance, whatever vestigial support the Tory party had left would evaporate entirely and they would be consigned to the rubbish heap of history for good. Any party following the example of the PP in Spain deserves to be utterly destroyed.
    I doubt it would the Tory Party and most Leavers (bar a few libertarians like you) ideally want Brexit and the Union
    Can you hear yourself? This is not about Libertarianism or the Union or any of that stuff. It is about proposing that the Government use force to deny people their right to vote. It is not just something a Libertarian or a an anarchist should decry, it is something that every right minded person in the country, both North and South of the border should utterly condemn.

    It was completely wrong in Spain and China and would be completely wrong in Scotland. It would destroy your precious Union and do it in such a way as to ensure animosity and hatred for generations. It is complete lunacy.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    52% 48% is not much really even and including Don't Knows there is no majority for independence at all
    Is it your considered opinion that 52:48 is really even? Because if it is, I’ve got a few thousand of your posts I’d like to discuss with you.
    There's a large difference in uncertainty between an opinion poll and a nationwide vote.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    May tried to get a deal. It failed due to a combination of her own incompetence, and because the majority of pro-EU MPs voted against it.

    Mr. Walker, remaining in also means ignoring 'two of the four nations'. Foreign policy can't be devolved and a Welshman's vote shouldn't mean less than a Scotsman's. I do have some sympathy with the irked, though. The whole thing has been handled poorly, by both PMs and MPs.

    As for democracy, the electorate voted, and MPs have buggered things. Even now they need to actually decide what they want, besides wailing and gnashing of teeth.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    That would be fantastic. Westminster would be (rightly) destroyed in the ensuing civil disorder.
    It is what Spain did in Catalonia and Madrid and the Cortez are still standing
    Err, that really doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to sent the police in to stop political activity.

    The best argument against Scottish independence is for the U.K. to make a success of leaving the EU, that’s where all the energies need to be put for the next few years.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Chris said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    52% 48% is not much gap really in terms of poll lead and including Don't Knows there is no majority for independence at all.

    It shows even with No Deal Brexit there is no guarantee Scots would back independence
    Are you the same HYUFD who normally goes about lecturing us about the "people's verdict".
    I assume there are several of them, working in shifts.
    In days of yore, I always imagined Plato (RIP) was two people since her backstory used to shift around a bit, though since her untimely death, that is obviously not the case.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    I don't think the British Army has enough English regiments to put down the civil insurrection that you are talking about. But sure, give it a go if you're deranged enough.
    Spain did it with the Civil Guard, it did not even need the Spanish army.

    Probably riot police and special forces would do it if the government went down that route.

    In Hong Kong so far China has just used riot police against demonstrators not the tanks as in 1989
    Ha ha you think there is a single police force in England that has any riot police to spare? I haven't seen a police officer in my neighbourhood of London in about four years. Special forces? You want Andy McNab and pals to arrest Nicola Sturgeon and bundle her into an unmarked car? This is great Monday morning entertainment, please keep it up.
    In Spain that is what Spanish civil guards did, nationalist leader Carlos Puigdemont fled into exile before they could arrest him
    Perhaps we could recruit a new division of Black and Tans to suppress the Scots. It worked so well a century ago...
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Foxy said:

    Scott_P said:

    Sources told the Financial Times last night that Mr Cummings was already planning the Facebook campaign for a “people versus the politicians’ election”.

    On a visit today to Lincolnshire, the area that recorded the highest Leave vote in 2016, the prime minister will announce extra money for upgrades for 20 hospitals or NHS trusts in England.

    In an apparent appeal to voters who have complained of being left behind, 12 of the hospitals or trusts receiving the funding are in areas that voted Leave. Government sources insisted that all the schemes were chosen on merit.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/boris-johnson-lays-ground-for-people-v-politicians-general-election-tf9v7nkg5

    https://twitter.com/janemerrick23/status/1158265687229550592

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1158265427421749248

    I don't think that it is correct to say no one knows where the money is coming from. It is mostly the Trusts own money that is being allowed to be spent:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1158261163488137219?s=19
    An interesting ploy by marketing genius Dominic Cummings.

    1. Remind voters of his bosses biggest whopper
    2. Send Matt Hancock -Hugh Grant meets Del Boy- round the studios to sell it.
    3. Draw attention to the NHS-Labour's strongest card

    Maybe he was a bit unconventional for an ad agency but I'm surprised Ratners didn't pick him up



  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    That would be fantastic. Westminster would be (rightly) destroyed in the ensuing civil disorder.
    It is what Spain did in Catalonia and Madrid and the Cortez are still standing
    Err, that really doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to sent the police in to stop political activity.

    The best argument against Scottish independence is for the U.K. to make a success of leaving the EU, that’s where all the energies need to be put for the next few years.
    On the whole I agree but I suspect some Tory MPs will consider the Spanish option as a last resort
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    You seem to have a noticeable sympathy with Fascism.
    HYUFD is sympathetic with anything that triggers the libs.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    You are suggesting that we should model our response to Scottish Nationalists on the behaviour of a brutal dictatorship?

    Have you gone completely insane?
    No but we could follow the model of the former Popular Party Government in Spain dealing with Nationalists in Catalonia, the Popular Party being the Tories sister party
    I would hope that under those circumstance, whatever vestigial support the Tory party had left would evaporate entirely and they would be consigned to the rubbish heap of history for good. Any party following the example of the PP in Spain deserves to be utterly destroyed.
    I doubt it would the Tory Party and most Leavers (bar a few libertarians like you) ideally want Brexit and the Union
    Can you hear yourself? This is not about Libertarianism or the Union or any of that stuff. It is about proposing that the Government use force to deny people their right to vote. It is not just something a Libertarian or a an anarchist should decry, it is something that every right minded person in the country, both North and South of the border should utterly condemn.

    It was completely wrong in Spain and China and would be completely wrong in Scotland. It would destroy your precious Union and do it in such a way as to ensure animosity and hatred for generations. It is complete lunacy.
    And was heavily condemned by lots of us here on PB as I recall.

    A more pertinent question really is, if Ashcroft's figures are correct - which, let us not forget, they usually are not - whether that makes another SNP majority more likely in 2021. Because that might trigger another referendum on independence.

    At the same time, they will then have been in government for fourteen years and their domestic agenda is rapidly descending into chaos. So they will be left with few options to campaign on other than independence anyway.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong

    The Spanish police were enforcing court orders handed down by judges in Catalonia who had ruled that the referendum had been declared illegal. The violence was disgraceful and shamed Spain. That said, Catalonia is currently run by a separatist government and led by a separatist president.

    Catalonia's challenge is the Spanish constitution, which the vast majority of Catalans approved in a referendum. It states specifically that Spain's current geography can only be changed by the consent of the majority of Spaniards. To legally obtain independence the Catalans have to secure changes to the constitution.

    The same constitutional obstacles to Scottish independence do not exist in the UK. There is no need for Scotland to circumvent the law because there is no reason for Westminster to deny Scotland an independence referendum if that's in the SNP manifesto and the SNP win a majority at Holyrood.

    Our constitution is based on Westminster sovereignty and Scotland is part of Westminster and has been since 1707.

    Spain only ended direct rule after blocking the independence referendum, if separatists tried again not impossible Spain again imposes temporary direct rule
  • HYUFD is bonkers, no offence. If the Scots want to be independent we should respect that.

    However all the Remainers who are happy to have fascists in Spain set our laws are hypocrites.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    That would be fantastic. Westminster would be (rightly) destroyed in the ensuing civil disorder.
    It is what Spain did in Catalonia and Madrid and the Cortez are still standing
    Err, that really doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to sent the police in to stop political activity.

    The best argument against Scottish independence is for the U.K. to make a success of leaving the EU, that’s where all the energies need to be put for the next few years.
    There's no point putting energies into a futile effort. Leavers have already shown themselves to be utterly clueless about even what they are aiming to achieve. So the UK is not going to make a success of leaving the EU. Better to start thinking what the consequences of that failure are going to be.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,852
    Started my day with Matt Hancock. Not recommended.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong

    The Spanish police were enforcing court orders handed down by judges in Catalonia who had ruled that the referendum had been declared illegal. The violence was disgraceful and shamed Spain. That said, Catalonia is currently run by a separatist government and led by a separatist president.

    Catalonia's challenge is the Spanish constitution, which the vast majority of Catalans approved in a referendum. It states specifically that Spain's current geography can only be changed by the consent of the majority of Spaniards. To legally obtain independence the Catalans have to secure changes to the constitution.

    The same constitutional obstacles to Scottish independence do not exist in the UK. There is no need for Scotland to circumvent the law because there is no reason for Westminster to deny Scotland an independence referendum if that's in the SNP manifesto and the SNP win a majority at Holyrood.

    Our constitution is based on Westminster sovereignty and Scotland is part of Westminster and has been since 1707.

    Spain only ended direct rule after blocking the independence referendum, if separatists tried again not impossible Spain again imposes temporary direct rule

    There was an Act of Union in 1707. The Scots voluntarily entered into it. They can just as easily decide to revoke.

    Direct rule was introduced after the independence referendum and after the Catalan government unilaterally and illegally declared independence.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    kinabalu said:

    Started my day with Matt Hancock. Not recommended.

    Leaving aside the fact that your personal sexual experiences are not germane, nor your analysis of their performance, I am both surprised and disappointed. I credited you with better taste than that.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    There's no point putting energies into a futile effort. Leavers have already shown themselves to be utterly clueless about even what they are aiming to achieve. So the UK is not going to make a success of leaving the EU. Better to start thinking what the consequences of that failure are going to be.

    The Tory Party seems to be working on the assumption that with the Union ended and Ireland reunited, their only route to a Parliamentary majority is to court the Little England vote.

    Tragic
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    As an aside, what is Boris' actual plan (I use the term loosely)?

    Run down the clock and blame the EU?

    Hope the EU offers a fig leaf, pronounce it a glorious oaken triumph, and resubmit the deal?

    Announce new spending every other day and hope nobody pays attention to anything else?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    HYUFD is bonkers, no offence. If the Scots want to be independent we should respect that.

    However all the Remainers who are happy to have fascists in Spain set our laws are hypocrites.

    Silly question but how do we have fascists in Spain setting our laws?
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    That would be fantastic. Westminster would be (rightly) destroyed in the ensuing civil disorder.
    It is what Spain did in Catalonia and Madrid and the Cortez are still standing

    The Spanish police were acting on the orders of Spanish courts, not the government. The Scots have a separate legal system and so you have to envisage a situation under which Scottish courts order the Scottish police to prevent an independence referendum in Scotland because the Scottish government has called it illegally.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,852

    Brexit - and it didn’t have to be this way - can only succeed by trampling over a massive minority - maybe even a majority - of the public, subverting Parliament, ignoring two of the four nations, and betraying the interests of working people.

    It cannot succeed as a democratic project and so the tendency is for it to go a bit fascisty, or at least an angry and aggressive populism.

    Perhaps it DID always have to be this way, given that at heart it is an identity project - hence its power.

    Nationalism trumps Rationalism.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    That would be fantastic. Westminster would be (rightly) destroyed in the ensuing civil disorder.
    It is what Spain did in Catalonia and Madrid and the Cortez are still standing

    The Spanish police were acting on the orders of Spanish courts, not the government. The Scots have a separate legal system and so you have to envisage a situation under which Scottish courts order the Scottish police to prevent an independence referendum in Scotland because the Scottish government has called it illegally.
    That would be a surreal moment.

    But it isn't impossible, given that Westminster would have to pass legislation before such a referendum could be held.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    May tried to get a deal. It failed due to a combination of her own incompetence, and because the majority of pro-EU MPs voted against it.

    Mr. Walker, remaining in also means ignoring 'two of the four nations'. Foreign policy can't be devolved and a Welshman's vote shouldn't mean less than a Scotsman's. I do have some sympathy with the irked, though. The whole thing has been handled poorly, by both PMs and MPs.

    As for democracy, the electorate voted, and MPs have buggered things. Even now they need to actually decide what they want, besides wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    With respect, I think you are not accounting for the reality that the U.K. is now a quasi federal state. Scottish and Northern Irish politics operate in almost entirely different spheres to Westminster, and Wales is not far behind.

    You may regret that (you seem to be rather passionate about the unitary state as an ideal form) but this has been the case since the late 90s and ever more so in the 2010s.

    In federal states it is normal for constituent states to hold veto powers for important constitutional matters.

    Leaving the EU is clearly such a matter.
    The EU is not just about “foreign policy”. As we see, leaving the EU has implications across every dimension of the constitution, especially with respect to Northern Ireland.

    You - an Englishman - can choose to override the wishes of people in the nations of course, but you must be prepared to pay the price.
  • Scott_P said:

    There's no point putting energies into a futile effort. Leavers have already shown themselves to be utterly clueless about even what they are aiming to achieve. So the UK is not going to make a success of leaving the EU. Better to start thinking what the consequences of that failure are going to be.

    The Tory Party seems to be working on the assumption that with the Union ended and Ireland reunited, their only route to a Parliamentary majority is to court the Little England vote.

    Tragic

    This all began with Cameron's reaction to the Scottish referendum result in 2014. He could have been magnanimous, instead he chose English nationalism. He was a very poor Prime Minister.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,852
    ydoethur said:

    Leaving aside the fact that your personal sexual experiences are not germane, nor your analysis of their performance, I am both surprised and disappointed. I credited you with better taste than that.

    Mea non culpa. The dangers of radio. I turned him on and then was unable to stop him before he had done considerable damage.
  • ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Given only 47% of Scots actually want indyref2 I suspect Boris would go down the Spanish route and either block it or impose direct rule, he would not allow Sturgeon to hold one
    Good luck with that.
    Worked for Spain, they sent in the Civil Guard to Catalonia, blocked a referendum taking place by force, arrested and exiled nationalist leaders and imposed temporary direct rule.

    Those who did manage to vote voted for independence but Catalonia is still part of Spain.

    China is cracking down even more forcibly on pro independence demonstrators in Hong Kong
    That would be fantastic. Westminster would be (rightly) destroyed in the ensuing civil disorder.
    It is what Spain did in Catalonia and Madrid and the Cortez are still standing

    The Spanish police were acting on the orders of Spanish courts, not the government. The Scots have a separate legal system and so you have to envisage a situation under which Scottish courts order the Scottish police to prevent an independence referendum in Scotland because the Scottish government has called it illegally.
    That would be a surreal moment.

    But it isn't impossible, given that Westminster would have to pass legislation before such a referendum could be held.

    Absolutely. But there is no constitutional reason for Westminster not to allow such a referendum. That makes the UK unlike most other countries, where the unity of the state is written into the constitution. This does not just apply to Spain, but to almost anywhere else. Look at the obstacles in the way of a state seceding in the US, for example.

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    HYUFD is bonkers, no offence. If the Scots want to be independent we should respect that.

    However all the Remainers who are happy to have fascists in Spain set our laws are hypocrites.

    Sorry, which Spanish fascists are setting our laws? Or are you just talking gibberish?
  • Roger said:

    HYUFD is bonkers, no offence. If the Scots want to be independent we should respect that.

    However all the Remainers who are happy to have fascists in Spain set our laws are hypocrites.

    Silly question but how do we have fascists in Spain setting our laws?
    When Spain did exactly what HYUFD proposes were they stripped of their EU Commissioner? Their MEPs? Their votes in the European Council?

    What was done is disgusting and has no place in a free democracy.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    edited August 2019

    As an aside, what is Boris' actual plan (I use the term loosely)?

    Run down the clock and blame the EU?

    Hope the EU offers a fig leaf, pronounce it a glorious oaken triumph, and resubmit the deal?

    Announce new spending every other day and hope nobody pays attention to anything else?

    Still my view that he expects (and is trying to ensure) that he is defeated in Parliament so he can unleash Cummings's Parliament v People election plan.

    Everyone can see it coming, apart from the lemons in the Labour Party.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    kinabalu said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leaving aside the fact that your personal sexual experiences are not germane, nor your analysis of their performance, I am both surprised and disappointed. I credited you with better taste than that.

    Mea non culpa. The dangers of radio. I turned him on and then was unable to stop him before he had done considerable damage.
    OK, now that really was TMI... :hushed:
This discussion has been closed.