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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Conservative Party is pursuing profoundly un-conservative

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited August 7 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Conservative Party is pursuing profoundly un-conservative policies. So I’ve left it.

I have today resigned my membership of the Conservative Party after 24 years. While that’s a moment of some sadness for me, it’s of trivial importance on any wider scale. What isn’t trivially important is the set of changes which the Party’s undergone in the last few years and especially the last few weeks because these will have an immense impact on the country, one way or another, and are changes that no true conservative party would be advocating.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 11,432
    First.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,487
    Very sad.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,487
    I'm sticking with the Conservatives (as I believe JohnO is too) as we are both hoping we can be part of bringing it round to its senses.

    I'm under no illusions that this could be some time off, though, and that we first will suffer a crushing defeat.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 3,487
    I disagree with your politics David but I feel your pain. It's awful when you realise that your party you've been a long standing member of has left you. That the principles you signed on for are no longer part of what the party stands for. That you can't keep going any longer.

    Enjoy your liberation.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 11,636


    I'm under no illusions that this could be some time off, though, and that we first will suffer a crushing defeat.

    The weird thing about this is that a lot of our Labour friends are thinking the same, but the parties can't *both* suffer a crushing defeat. Or rather they could, but realistically how big could the Swinsongasm get?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 3,741
    The low effort shitpost tier image on the article made me laugh so it's not all doom and gloom.
  • eekeek Posts: 4,803

    I'm sticking with the Conservatives (as I believe JohnO is too) as we are both hoping we can be part of bringing it round to its senses.

    I'm under no illusions that this could be some time off, though, and that we first will suffer a crushing defeat.

    I suspect Boris will ‘win’ in some form the next election so that time could be a long time off.

    By win I mean still not have a majority but more seats than the other parties
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 28,060
    I disagree with your decision, but respect your reasons for it.

    IMHO, now that the budget deficit has been brought below 2% of GDP, there is good reason to spend in key areas. I was certainly shocked to learn that the number of cases being prosecuted has fallen by half, as a result of cuts to the justice budget. That's a real dereliction of duty on the part of the government.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 28,060


    I'm under no illusions that this could be some time off, though, and that we first will suffer a crushing defeat.

    The weird thing about this is that a lot of our Labour friends are thinking the same, but the parties can't *both* suffer a crushing defeat. Or rather they could, but realistically how big could the Swinsongasm get?
    There's a ceiling to Lib Dem support, as well. They obviously aren't going to get support from Leave voters, and many Remain voters are already committed to Labour, SNP, Plaid, Greens or even the Conservatives.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 6,757
    Sean_F said:

    I disagree with your decision, but respect your reasons for it.

    IMHO, now that the budget deficit has been brought below 2% of GDP, there is good reason to spend in key areas. I was certainly shocked to learn that the number of cases being prosecuted has fallen by half, as a result of cuts to the justice budget. That's a real dereliction of duty on the part of the government.

    I don't support the Tories anymore, I resigned my membership some yrs back and don't get many begging letters anymore. I voted LD in the Euros, and its only the danger of Corbyn that will effectively decide how I vote if a GE comes. IF there any chance of Corbyn winning .. jeez.. what to do?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 24,114
    Sad to see David's decision, but fully understand and endorse it.
  • FlannerFlanner Posts: 31
    This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?

    Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.

    True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.

    No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 28,060

    Sean_F said:

    I disagree with your decision, but respect your reasons for it.

    IMHO, now that the budget deficit has been brought below 2% of GDP, there is good reason to spend in key areas. I was certainly shocked to learn that the number of cases being prosecuted has fallen by half, as a result of cuts to the justice budget. That's a real dereliction of duty on the part of the government.

    I don't support the Tories anymore, I resigned my membership some yrs back and don't get many begging letters anymore. I voted LD in the Euros, and its only the danger of Corbyn that will effectively decide how I vote if a GE comes. IF there any chance of Corbyn winning .. jeez.. what to do?
    I don't support a No Deal Brexit as my preferred outcome, but I don't want to revoke A.50 either, and don't want a far left government, so that just leaves the Conservatives.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 3,487
    I highly doubt that anyone will win the next election. We'll end up with multiple blocks in the Commons looking to find a route towards working together. Neither Tory nor Labour Parties in their current form seem willing to compromise even with themselves, so my conclusion is the parties split.

    I could have hung around to wait for a Labour split and gone with the sane wing. I am still receiving well argued missives as to why I should resume work and put the crazies to the sword. I just don't want to any more.

    Query - when you leave the Tory party do you leave leave? I cut up my Labour membership card, said "I quit" on social media and cancelled my direct debit. Yet I am still a member under rules which do not allow any member to leave other than by means of exclusion. Non-payment of subs for 6 months is automatic exclusion, so unless I get expelled in the meantime (such as declaring for or joining the Tories) I remain a member until early 2020...
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,945
    A whole header of virtue signalling.

    How very 2019.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 24,114
    I see Luke Pollard over at LabourList is blaming the evil water companies and profit stealing for the problems with the Toddbrook Reservoir dam over at Whaly Bridge:
    https://labourlist.org/2019/08/the-derbyshire-dam-collapse-shows-we-need-to-transform-our-water-industry/

    Unfortunately for him, the dam is owned nad maintained by the Canal and River Trust, a charity that replaced the old British Waterways.
    https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/

    It seems a bit harsh to rant against the evils of the privatised water companies, shareholders and profit-taking, when the problem occurred in an NGO charity. Whilst it can be argued that the CWT should be getting more funding, that's a rather different issue.

    And sadly, Labourlist don't allow comments to point this out.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 26,075

    I'm sticking with the Conservatives (as I believe JohnO is too) as we are both hoping we can be part of bringing it round to its senses.

    I'm under no illusions that this could be some time off, though, and that we first will suffer a crushing defeat.

    Sorry to rub salt in the wound but you are a co-author of your party’s misfortunes.

    The Conservative party is mutating, like the Tommyknockers of Stephen King’s novel. The old one is not coming back.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,487


    I'm under no illusions that this could be some time off, though, and that we first will suffer a crushing defeat.

    The weird thing about this is that a lot of our Labour friends are thinking the same, but the parties can't *both* suffer a crushing defeat. Or rather they could, but realistically how big could the Swinsongasm get?
    Clothes peg will be clipped to noses and Labour will exceed expectations, I think.

    The Conservatives are facing a perfect storm.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,487

    I see Luke Pollard over at LabourList is blaming the evil water companies and profit stealing for the problems with the Toddbrook Reservoir dam over at Whaly Bridge:
    https://labourlist.org/2019/08/the-derbyshire-dam-collapse-shows-we-need-to-transform-our-water-industry/

    Unfortunately for him, the dam is owned nad maintained by the Canal and River Trust, a charity that replaced the old British Waterways.
    https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/

    It seems a bit harsh to rant against the evils of the privatised water companies, shareholders and profit-taking, when the problem occurred in an NGO charity. Whilst it can be argued that the CWT should be getting more funding, that's a rather different issue.

    And sadly, Labourlist don't allow comments to point this out.

    Why let something as insignificant as facts get in the way of a good ideology?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 30,697
    Wow! Huge admiration and respect to you, David. We do not share many political views, but I know you to be a good, patriotic man who only wants the best for his country. The Tories cannot afford to lose people like you.

    Best wishes - I imagine you are feeling something of an empty sadness this morning. But you have to be true to yourself and your principles. If you could not be that inside the Conservative party anymore, you had no real choice but to go.

    Could the last sensible Tory to leave the party turn the lights out?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,487
    TGOHF said:

    A whole header of virtue signalling.

    How very 2019.

    No, I think David is perfectly sincere.

    He is (like Richard Nabavi) a core loyal Conservative and this is a very serious loss.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 76,386
    edited August 7
    First Richard Nabavi, now David Herdson, long term the Tory party is screwed without its fiscally dry One Nation wing.

    When you fundamentally disagree with the central policy aim of the government and most of its other major policies then it is no longer the party for you.

    Like David, I also resigned my membership yesterday, No Deal was already my red line but the Cummings plan on the front of yesterday’s Times was the tipping point. I could live with Brexit but not No Deal. If I wanted to ruin the economy I would have joined the Labour Party.

    The other thing that brought it to head was the realisation that if and when Boris crashes and burns the party isn’t going to come to its senses but go for someone even more horrific, like Priti Patel, Steve Baker, or our Corbyn, Andrew Bridgen as next leader.

    I joined the party in the 90s my philosophy hasn’t changed but the party has, that we are about to willingly deliver economic damage whilst the same people who back in 2016 said No Deal was Project Fear now say it’ll be fine means I can wash my hands of the looming tempest.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 28,060
    Flanner said:

    This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?

    Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.

    True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.

    No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.

    Much more fundamentally unConservative was the decision to join the EC in 1972. That was a very radical break with all that the Conservatives had believed in, prior to that point, done because the party was terrified of our trade unions and the Soviet Union.

    For many Conservatives, leaving the EU is like restoring the monarchy in 1660.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 1,937
    David, I've delurked to say how sad I am for you that it has come to this, although I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis.

    I hope the party can return to a place where people like you are part of the process. But at the moment, the party is as bereft of leadership as Corbyn's Labour.

    Best,
    @dounreay262
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 50,572
    Good morning, everyone.

    I'm not a Conservative member, but will be sticking with them at the next General Election if the alternative is Corbyn.

    I'm hugely unimpressed with them for backing Boris Johnson, however, and with the PM for his blustering nonsense and endless spending pledges. He's got a job to do, which is sorting out leaving the EU. I think he's going to cock it up, as one might expect from a known incompetent, but we'll see.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 6,757
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    I disagree with your decision, but respect your reasons for it.

    IMHO, now that the budget deficit has been brought below 2% of GDP, there is good reason to spend in key areas. I was certainly shocked to learn that the number of cases being prosecuted has fallen by half, as a result of cuts to the justice budget. That's a real dereliction of duty on the part of the government.

    I don't support the Tories anymore, I resigned my membership some yrs back and don't get many begging letters anymore. I voted LD in the Euros, and its only the danger of Corbyn that will effectively decide how I vote if a GE comes. IF there any chance of Corbyn winning .. jeez.. what to do?
    I don't support a No Deal Brexit as my preferred outcome, but I don't want to revoke A.50 either, and don't want a far left government, so that just leaves the Conservatives.
    and that's what is so worrying. I don't want them either.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,487
    Sean_F said:


    I'm under no illusions that this could be some time off, though, and that we first will suffer a crushing defeat.

    The weird thing about this is that a lot of our Labour friends are thinking the same, but the parties can't *both* suffer a crushing defeat. Or rather they could, but realistically how big could the Swinsongasm get?
    There's a ceiling to Lib Dem support, as well. They obviously aren't going to get support from Leave voters, and many Remain voters are already committed to Labour, SNP, Plaid, Greens or even the Conservatives.
    Whilst that’s true they could be a one-off vehicle to stop a No Deal Brexit in a snap general election.

    I’d expect them to do very well in the South and stockbroker belt, and to fall back markedly at subsequent elections.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 30,697

    I highly doubt that anyone will win the next election. We'll end up with multiple blocks in the Commons looking to find a route towards working together. Neither Tory nor Labour Parties in their current form seem willing to compromise even with themselves, so my conclusion is the parties split.

    I could have hung around to wait for a Labour split and gone with the sane wing. I am still receiving well argued missives as to why I should resume work and put the crazies to the sword. I just don't want to any more.

    Query - when you leave the Tory party do you leave leave? I cut up my Labour membership card, said "I quit" on social media and cancelled my direct debit. Yet I am still a member under rules which do not allow any member to leave other than by means of exclusion. Non-payment of subs for 6 months is automatic exclusion, so unless I get expelled in the meantime (such as declaring for or joining the Tories) I remain a member until early 2020...

    I didn’t know you’d quit. Congratulations. You are free!!!!

    However, you can never leave the Labour Party. I am still getting all my CLP literature, messages from the Great Leader, stuff from the regional organisation, and so on, and I resigned and stop paying subs well over a year ago.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,487
    Sean_F said:

    I disagree with your decision, but respect your reasons for it.

    IMHO, now that the budget deficit has been brought below 2% of GDP, there is good reason to spend in key areas. I was certainly shocked to learn that the number of cases being prosecuted has fallen by half, as a result of cuts to the justice budget. That's a real dereliction of duty on the part of the government.


    Unfortunately, some of the areas requiring most additional public spending priority yield the fewest electoral dividends.

    They aren’t many votes in increasing justice, foreign affairs or defence spending. There probably are in policing numbers, the NHS and social care.

    On the flip side, increased social welfare payments and reverses to benefit cuts probably won’t help Labour very much either.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 26,075
    On topic, I’m not naturally a joiner of anything. But I recognise that for anyone who has committed themselves as deeply to a party as David Herdson has to the Conservatives, leaving it must be like a divorce.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 20,536
    David Howard (fleetingly of this parish) on R4 just before the 0700 news explaining why the speaker allowing an emergency debate and suspension of SO24 are key to MPs taking control of the agenda and stopping a no deal exit.
  • On topic, I’m not naturally a joiner of anything. But I recognise that for anyone who has committed themselves as deeply to a party as David Herdson has to the Conservatives, leaving it must be like a divorce.

    Leaving my wife was easier for me than leaving the Conservative party.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,988

    I highly doubt that anyone will win the next election. We'll end up with multiple blocks in the Commons looking to find a route towards working together. Neither Tory nor Labour Parties in their current form seem willing to compromise even with themselves, so my conclusion is the parties split.

    I could have hung around to wait for a Labour split and gone with the sane wing. I am still receiving well argued missives as to why I should resume work and put the crazies to the sword. I just don't want to any more.

    Query - when you leave the Tory party do you leave leave? I cut up my Labour membership card, said "I quit" on social media and cancelled my direct debit. Yet I am still a member under rules which do not allow any member to leave other than by means of exclusion. Non-payment of subs for 6 months is automatic exclusion, so unless I get expelled in the meantime (such as declaring for or joining the Tories) I remain a member until early 2020...

    I didn’t know you’d quit. Congratulations. You are free!!!!

    However, you can never leave the Labour Party. I am still getting all my CLP literature, messages from the Great Leader, stuff from the regional organisation, and so on, and I resigned and stop paying subs well over a year ago.

    It took a few years for the mailings to stop when I quit Labour in the early noughties, but they eventually gave up.

    Sad to see DH and TSE quit, Rochdale Pioneers too. The main parties are hollowing out.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 3,487

    First Richard Nabavi, now David Herdson, long term the Tory party is screwed without its fiscally dry One Nation wing.

    When you fundamentally disagree with the central policy aim of the government and most of its other major policies then it is no longer the party for you.

    Like David, I also resigned my membership yesterday, No Deal was already my red line but the Cummings plan on the front of yesterday’s Times was the tipping point. I could live with Brexit but not No Deal. If I wanted to ruin the economy I would have joined the Labour Party.

    The other thing that brought it to head was the realisation that if and when Boris crashes and burns the party isn’t going to come to its senses but go for someone even more horrific, like Priti Patel, Steve Baker, or our Corbyn, Andrew Bridgen as next leader.

    I joined the party in the 90s my philosophy hasn’t changed but the party has, that we are about to willingly deliver economic damage whilst the same people who back in 2016 said No Deal was Project Fear now say it’ll be fine means I can wash my hands of the looming tempest.

    You've gone as well? Bloody hell...

    Will be funny if the last poster on here still an active member of either major party is The Jezziah...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,487
    Sean_F said:

    Flanner said:

    This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?

    Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.

    True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.

    No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.

    Much more fundamentally unConservative was the decision to join the EC in 1972. That was a very radical break with all that the Conservatives had believed in, prior to that point, done because the party was terrified of our trade unions and the Soviet Union.

    For many Conservatives, leaving the EU is like restoring the monarchy in 1660.
    It had its roots in the attitudes of establishment Conservatives. Up until Suez most still thought of the UK as an independent great power and recognised a federalising Europe was a bad fit.

    That changed in the late 1950s when establishment Conservatives suffered a catastrophic loss of confidence of the back of it, accompanied with decolonisation accelerating every year, and became inevitable in the 1960s when those underlying attitudes and desire to retain world power status met someone (a new Tory party leader) who was just as ideological about Europe as Jean Monnet.

    If we hadn’t joined then I doubt we would have done so in the 1980s, and certainly not after 1985. We probably would have instead negotiated a closer associate status.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,945
    edited August 7

    TGOHF said:

    A whole header of virtue signalling.

    How very 2019.

    No, I think David is perfectly sincere.

    He is (like Richard Nabavi) a core loyal Conservative and this is a very serious loss.
    Seems a bit flouncy in reason 3 - rumours of what may or may not be in the budget - a fiscally sound Conservative would study the package as a whole.

    If ever there was a time to resign it was during Mays disaster of a regime - crap policies, crap negotiations and crap management.

    You've all been frog boiled into seeing getting a grip after a clusterfudge as something mind bendingly radical. It isn’t.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,487

    On topic, I’m not naturally a joiner of anything. But I recognise that for anyone who has committed themselves as deeply to a party as David Herdson has to the Conservatives, leaving it must be like a divorce.

    Leaving my wife was easier for me than leaving the Conservative party.
    You’ve left too?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 11,636


    Will be funny if the last poster on here still an active member of either major party is The Jezziah...

    It's gonna be The Jezziah and HYUFD, they'll each pick a leader and you'll be stuck with one of those thanks to FPTP.
  • On topic, I’m not naturally a joiner of anything. But I recognise that for anyone who has committed themselves as deeply to a party as David Herdson has to the Conservatives, leaving it must be like a divorce.

    Leaving my wife was easier for me than leaving the Conservative party.
    You’ve left too?
    Yes.

    See my post at 6:50.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 7,726
    edited August 7

    I have today resigned my membership of the Conservative Party after 24 years. While that’s a moment of some sadness for me, it’s of trivial importance on any wider scale.

    Is it of trivial importance?

    The risk for the Conservatives is that they are losing a cohort of members with valuable experience of the practical means by which elections are fought and won: canvassing, turning the vote out, etc. Do the entryists from UKIP have those skills?

    In the end Herdson may still end up personally voting for Johnson's party. There aren't many obvious centre-right alternatives. I'd suggest that his exit from the party will cost them some votes, though, from voters he might otherwise have persuaded.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 723
    edited August 7
    So first Richard Nabavi and then David Herdson. Where is TSE ?

    Edit: Apologies to TSE. I just saw a post from him saying he has resigned too ! Are Remainers leaving the Tories in droves ? Or, only activists ?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 20,536
    A brave and principled lead from David; respect and kudos.

    I wonder whether Cummings, even with Bozo’s backing, is going to reach a point where his egg-breaking no surrender strategy becomes too much even for the current bunch of Tory MPs?

    Taking control of a referendum campaign, a transient entity staffed by relatively few people, is a lot easier than getting the whole of government - a large number of elected politicians backed by countless advisers and civil servants, and usually responsive to all manner of pressure from the public, electors, media, the law, vested interests and opinion leaders - to pursue a path of scorched earth or burning bridges, or whatever analogy we might choose. There could easily become a point where he has generated so much counter-action that Bozo has to tell him to stop.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 24,114

    On topic, I’m not naturally a joiner of anything. But I recognise that for anyone who has committed themselves as deeply to a party as David Herdson has to the Conservatives, leaving it must be like a divorce.

    Leaving my wife was easier for me than leaving the Conservative party.
    You’ve left too?
    Yes.

    See my post at 6:50.
    Sorry to hear that, TSE.
    These posts firm up my own decision not to vote Conservative under Boris.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 30,697

    First Richard Nabavi, now David Herdson, long term the Tory party is screwed without its fiscally dry One Nation wing.

    When you fundamentally disagree with the central policy aim of the government and most of its other major policies then it is no longer the party for you.

    Like David, I also resigned my membership yesterday, No Deal was already my red line but the Cummings plan on the front of yesterday’s Times was the tipping point. I could live with Brexit but not No Deal. If I wanted to ruin the economy I would have joined the Labour Party.

    The other thing that brought it to head was the realisation that if and when Boris crashes and burns the party isn’t going to come to its senses but go for someone even more horrific, like Priti Patel, Steve Baker, or our Corbyn, Andrew Bridgen as next leader.

    I joined the party in the 90s my philosophy hasn’t changed but the party has, that we are about to willingly deliver economic damage whilst the same people who back in 2016 said No Deal was Project Fear now say it’ll be fine means I can wash my hands of the looming tempest.

    You, too, TSE? Bloody hell. The Tory retreat into populist English nationalism will deliver short-term electoral benefits and profound long-term damage, both for the party and the country. People like you, David and Richard Nabavi will no doubt have to return to pick up the pieces at some point. The UK (probably England by then) needs a rational centre-right, pro-business party. It doesn’t have one currently.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,988


    Will be funny if the last poster on here still an active member of either major party is The Jezziah...

    It's gonna be The Jezziah and HYUFD, they'll each pick a leader and you'll be stuck with one of those thanks to FPTP.
    Zombie parties do eventually meet a sticky end. The Liberals splitting multiple ways was how they ended, but the Ill fate of Change UK doesn't bode well for other splitters.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 53,576
    Flanner said:

    This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?

    Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.

    True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.

    No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.

    17.6 million people voted to leave. The WA would have left on good terms with a probable very close Norwegian style relationship post transition, the only serious remainer arguments I've heard against it being we give up some control - well has Norway's economy died on the rocks with their lack of control ?
    Remoaners, and I am going to use the remoaner term here for yourself being unhappy with a very mild form of leave are just as responsible as Farage, Boris and Banks for pushing this country to the brink of a potentially economy trashing No Deal Exit. Like all those Labour MPs who refused to vote for the WA through their ridiculous tribalism this position is contemptible.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 5,441
    TGOHF said:

    A whole header of virtue signalling.

    How very 2019.

    What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 723

    I have today resigned my membership of the Conservative Party after 24 years. While that’s a moment of some sadness for me, it’s of trivial importance on any wider scale.

    Is it of trivial importance?

    The risk for the Conservatives is that they are losing a cohort of members with valuable experience of the practical means by which elections are fought and won: canvassing, turning the vote out, etc. Do the entryists from UKIP have those skills?

    In the end Herdson may still end up personally voting for Johnson's party. There aren't many obvious centre-right alternatives. I'd suggest that his exit from the party will cost them some votes, though, from voters he might otherwise have persuaded.
    I doubt David Herdson will vote for Johnson's Conservatives since he left the party because of him and his policies. Unless, of course, he gets along well with his local candidate.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,368
    The Conservative Party as we have known it has ceased to exist. I wonder what comes next?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 20,514

    I highly doubt that anyone will win the next election. We'll end up with multiple blocks in the Commons looking to find a route towards working together. Neither Tory nor Labour Parties in their current form seem willing to compromise even with themselves, so my conclusion is the parties split.

    I could have hung around to wait for a Labour split and gone with the sane wing. I am still receiving well argued missives as to why I should resume work and put the crazies to the sword. I just don't want to any more.

    Query - when you leave the Tory party do you leave leave? I cut up my Labour membership card, said "I quit" on social media and cancelled my direct debit. Yet I am still a member under rules which do not allow any member to leave other than by means of exclusion. Non-payment of subs for 6 months is automatic exclusion, so unless I get expelled in the meantime (such as declaring for or joining the Tories) I remain a member until early 2020...

    I didn’t know you’d quit. Congratulations. You are free!!!!

    However, you can never leave the Labour Party. I am still getting all my CLP literature, messages from the Great Leader, stuff from the regional organisation, and so on, and I resigned and stop paying subs well over a year ago.

    Isn't it illegal under GDPR to retain personal information for that length of time?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 24,388

    TGOHF said:

    A whole header of virtue signalling.

    How very 2019.

    No, I think David is perfectly sincere.

    He is (like Richard Nabavi) a core loyal Conservative and this is a very serious loss.
    FWIW I resigned when IDS was elected. Although I occasionally support and vote for the Conservatives I do so on my terms. Even if things were to change I doubt David would come back with anything like the same enthusiasm: the memory of the first betrayal will always remain. That’s why it’s so serious.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,487

    On topic, I’m not naturally a joiner of anything. But I recognise that for anyone who has committed themselves as deeply to a party as David Herdson has to the Conservatives, leaving it must be like a divorce.

    Leaving my wife was easier for me than leaving the Conservative party.
    You’ve left too?
    Yes.

    See my post at 6:50.
    Woah. I missed that.

    Shame. Hope you come back soon.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 723
    edited August 7
    I am not a Conservative of course. But yesterday's leak that Johnson will not accept a VoNC defeat must have come as a profound shock and something seriously to worry about. What would they have said, if Corbyn did that ?
  • The Conservative Party as we have known it has ceased to exist. I wonder what comes next?

    The Maggies Party.

    A party based on how Thatcher governed.

    Pro-EC, fiscally responsible, pro business, socially liberal (section 28 apart), helping plebs do well out of their lives, radical reform of public services.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 20,536
    TGOHF said:

    A whole header of virtue signalling.

    How very 2019.

    Whilst you might say that of others who may have threatened or posited their resignation in various circumstances but then failed to carry through, I suggest that is unfair in David’s case. He has reasonably widely known as a Conservative supporter and has had the confidence and strength of feeling to set out his reasons and to put them into the public arena. There is no real upside for him, other than his knowing that he has stuck by his own principles and has done his bit to stimulate a wider debate. He is likely burning some bridges by doing so and to dismiss him simply as signalling is wrong.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,487
    Pulpstar said:

    Flanner said:

    This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?

    Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.

    True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.

    No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.

    17.6 million people voted to leave. The WA would have left on good terms with a probable very close Norwegian style relationship post transition, the only serious remainer arguments I've heard against it being we give up some control - well has Norway's economy died on the rocks with their lack of control ?
    Remoaners, and I am going to use the remoaner term here for yourself being unhappy with a very mild form of leave are just as responsible as Farage, Boris and Banks for pushing this country to the brink of a potentially economy trashing No Deal Exit. Like all those Labour MPs who refused to vote for the WA through their ridiculous tribalism this position is contemptible.
    Yep. This.

    And, FWIW, I don’t agree it was Norway. It was much closer to what Alastair Meeks described as a managed Hard Brexit, with political independence and freedom of action in services, digital, financial regulation and immigration, but staying part of the single market for goods with very close customs alignment on that.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,945

    TGOHF said:

    A whole header of virtue signalling.

    How very 2019.

    What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge
    His priority is to tell us he’s leaving and how he isn’t ghastly like them that the mob don’t like rather than dissect any fundamentals.

    The argument that a week of Boris - who has implemented nothing is awful and 3 years of May was fine is laughable.

    Reminds me of a joke -

    How do you know someone is a vegan ?

    Don’t worry they will have already told you.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 7,726
    edited August 7
    ydoethur said:

    I highly doubt that anyone will win the next election. We'll end up with multiple blocks in the Commons looking to find a route towards working together. Neither Tory nor Labour Parties in their current form seem willing to compromise even with themselves, so my conclusion is the parties split.

    I could have hung around to wait for a Labour split and gone with the sane wing. I am still receiving well argued missives as to why I should resume work and put the crazies to the sword. I just don't want to any more.

    Query - when you leave the Tory party do you leave leave? I cut up my Labour membership card, said "I quit" on social media and cancelled my direct debit. Yet I am still a member under rules which do not allow any member to leave other than by means of exclusion. Non-payment of subs for 6 months is automatic exclusion, so unless I get expelled in the meantime (such as declaring for or joining the Tories) I remain a member until early 2020...

    I didn’t know you’d quit. Congratulations. You are free!!!!

    However, you can never leave the Labour Party. I am still getting all my CLP literature, messages from the Great Leader, stuff from the regional organisation, and so on, and I resigned and stop paying subs well over a year ago.

    Isn't it illegal under GDPR to retain personal information for that length of time?
    Yes. There must (under law) be a simple way for people to request that the party deletes their data and stops contacting them.

    It's not a surprise that the party under Corbyn lacks the administrative competence to implement that.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 9,537
    Concerns over the EU had no salience, at least how the mantra went on PB for a very long time. Post referendum, the major parties' splits appear to widening at a time of paralysis in Parliament.

    I wasn't a fan of the direction of the EU pre 2016, nor was I impressed by Cameron's constant pretence that reform was always just around the corner. I had voted Leave, but now remain underwhelmed by Boris Johnson and The ERG, their arguments for Brexit verge on fiscal and economic incontinence backed by political incoherence.

    If Cameron had been a more cunning politician he would have put in a turnout clause, with a % vote floor for the Referendum. He didn't and his role in this shambles cannot be overlooked.

    Even if the UK was to Remain, more attention would be needed to address the concerns of those who voted Leave. I'm far from convinced that Jo Swinson is able to do this, even if she retains her seat at a General Election. The LDs have to ask what are they other than a pro EU group at Westminster.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 24,388

    So first Richard Nabavi and then David Herdson. Where is TSE ?

    Edit: Apologies to TSE. I just saw a post from him saying he has resigned too ! Are Remainers leaving the Tories in droves ? Or, only activists ?

    I hadn’t realised @Richard_Nabavi had quit as well?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 20,514

    I am not a Conservative of course. But yesterday's leak that Johnson will not accept a VoNC defeat must have come as a profound shock and something seriously to worry about. What would they have said, if Corbyn did that ?

    Pretty much what Labour have said: which interestingly, appears to be nothing. Perhaps they are pondering how they could turn these ideas to their advantage?

    As I have repeatedly said, Johnson and Corbyn - two cheeks of the same arse.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 9,537

    I am not a Conservative of course. But yesterday's leak that Johnson will not accept a VoNC defeat must have come as a profound shock and something seriously to worry about. What would they have said, if Corbyn did that ?

    Quite.

    HMQ launches operation Gough Whitlam.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 723
    Charles said:

    So first Richard Nabavi and then David Herdson. Where is TSE ?

    Edit: Apologies to TSE. I just saw a post from him saying he has resigned too ! Are Remainers leaving the Tories in droves ? Or, only activists ?

    I hadn’t realised @Richard_Nabavi had quit as well?
    He did just after Johnson became PM. He also wrote a header for PB.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 24,388

    Charles said:

    So first Richard Nabavi and then David Herdson. Where is TSE ?

    Edit: Apologies to TSE. I just saw a post from him saying he has resigned too ! Are Remainers leaving the Tories in droves ? Or, only activists ?

    I hadn’t realised @Richard_Nabavi had quit as well?
    He did just after Johnson became PM. He also wrote a header for PB.
    I’ve been on the beach... PB gets less attention... 😄
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 30,697
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    A whole header of virtue signalling.

    How very 2019.

    What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge
    His priority is to tell us he’s leaving and how he isn’t ghastly like them that the mob don’t like rather than dissect any fundamentals.

    The argument that a week of Boris - who has implemented nothing is awful and 3 years of May was fine is laughable.

    Reminds me of a joke -

    How do you know someone is a vegan ?

    Don’t worry they will have already told you.

    TGOHF - you are signalling your virtues are very different to David’s. You are a virtue signaller.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 53,576

    Pulpstar said:

    Flanner said:

    This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?

    Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.

    True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.

    No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.

    17.6 million people voted to leave. The WA would have left on good terms with a probable very close Norwegian style relationship post transition, the only serious remainer arguments I've heard against it being we give up some control - well has Norway's economy died on the rocks with their lack of control ?
    Remoaners, and I am going to use the remoaner term here for yourself being unhappy with a very mild form of leave are just as responsible as Farage, Boris and Banks for pushing this country to the brink of a potentially economy trashing No Deal Exit. Like all those Labour MPs who refused to vote for the WA through their ridiculous tribalism this position is contemptible.
    Yep. This.

    And, FWIW, I don’t agree it was Norway. It was much closer to what Alastair Meeks described as a managed Hard Brexit, with political independence and freedom of action in services, digital, financial regulation and immigration, but staying part of the single market for goods with very close customs alignment on that.
    If the WA was passed then we would have decided now the sort of post EU future we want. Close would be my guess. Anyhow sterling and the economy would have been stable enough ! Only those socially wedded to the EU would have been unhappy :D
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 9,111

    TGOHF said:

    A whole header of virtue signalling.

    How very 2019.

    What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge
    "Virtue signalling" is a lazy term that aims to delegitimise principle.

    Devastating critique of the Party from a conservative point of view. The Lib Dems are the clear conservative option these days, curiously, including keeping the United Kingdom intact.
  • On topic, I’m not naturally a joiner of anything. But I recognise that for anyone who has committed themselves as deeply to a party as David Herdson has to the Conservatives, leaving it must be like a divorce.

    Leaving my wife was easier for me than leaving the Conservative party.
    You’ve left too?
    Yes.

    See my post at 6:50.
    Woah. I missed that.

    Shame. Hope you come back soon.
    So do I.

    Sadly I think it will take a while but we’re on course to put Corbyn in Number 10 and/or ensure we rejoin the EU and the Euro by the 2020s by the approach of Boris and the No Dealers.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,945
    IanB2 said:

    TGOHF said:

    A whole header of virtue signalling.

    How very 2019.

    Whilst you might say that of others who may have threatened or posited their resignation in various circumstances but then failed to carry through, I suggest that is unfair in David’s case. He has reasonably widely known as a Conservative supporter and has had the confidence and strength of feeling to set out his reasons and to put them into the public arena. There is no real upside for him, other than his knowing that he has stuck by his own principles and has done his bit to stimulate a wider debate. He is likely burning some bridges by doing so and to dismiss him simply as signalling is wrong.
    As mentioned - stayed through 3 years of the awful May and quits after a week of Boris on the basis of paper rumours.

    Hardly a sound evidence based approach.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 20,514

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    A whole header of virtue signalling.

    How very 2019.

    What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge
    His priority is to tell us he’s leaving and how he isn’t ghastly like them that the mob don’t like rather than dissect any fundamentals.

    The argument that a week of Boris - who has implemented nothing is awful and 3 years of May was fine is laughable.

    Reminds me of a joke -

    How do you know someone is a vegan ?

    Don’t worry they will have already told you.

    TGOHF - you are signalling your virtues are very different to David’s. You are a virtue signaller.

    I think the opposite of 'virtue signalling' is 'vice signalling.'
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 723

    I highly doubt that anyone will win the next election. We'll end up with multiple blocks in the Commons looking to find a route towards working together. Neither Tory nor Labour Parties in their current form seem willing to compromise even with themselves, so my conclusion is the parties split.

    I could have hung around to wait for a Labour split and gone with the sane wing. I am still receiving well argued missives as to why I should resume work and put the crazies to the sword. I just don't want to any more.

    Query - when you leave the Tory party do you leave leave? I cut up my Labour membership card, said "I quit" on social media and cancelled my direct debit. Yet I am still a member under rules which do not allow any member to leave other than by means of exclusion. Non-payment of subs for 6 months is automatic exclusion, so unless I get expelled in the meantime (such as declaring for or joining the Tories) I remain a member until early 2020...

    I didn’t know you’d quit. Congratulations. You are free!!!!

    However, you can never leave the Labour Party. I am still getting all my CLP literature, messages from the Great Leader, stuff from the regional organisation, and so on, and I resigned and stop paying subs well over a year ago.

    I am also seriously thinking of leaving the Labour Party. Apart from anything else, it will save me a lot of money. I have had disagreements with the party leadership before [ in fact, under Ed I was very comfortable ] but the latest stance on Brexit I find deeply disturbing. When Rebecca Long Name comes and blurts out some utterly bewildering words , you have to suspect they [ Corbyn & co. ], whatever they say, are very comfortable with the UK leaving with No Deal.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 20,514
    edited August 7
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    So first Richard Nabavi and then David Herdson. Where is TSE ?

    Edit: Apologies to TSE. I just saw a post from him saying he has resigned too ! Are Remainers leaving the Tories in droves ? Or, only activists ?

    I hadn’t realised @Richard_Nabavi had quit as well?
    He did just after Johnson became PM. He also wrote a header for PB.
    I’ve been on the beach... PB gets less attention... 😄
    Well, put it this way - Boris Johnson becoming leader has been making waves among the saner and more intelligent Tories on here.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,988

    Pulpstar said:

    Flanner said:

    This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?

    Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.

    True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.

    No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.

    17.6 million people voted to leave. The WA would have left on good terms with a probable very close Norwegian style relationship post transition, the only serious remainer arguments I've heard against it being we give up some control - well has Norway's economy died on the rocks with their lack of control ?
    Remoaners, and I am going to use the remoaner term here for yourself being unhappy with a very mild form of leave are just as responsible as Farage, Boris and Banks for pushing this country to the brink of a potentially economy trashing No Deal Exit. Like all those Labour MPs who refused to vote for the WA through their ridiculous tribalism this position is contemptible.
    Yep. This.

    And, FWIW, I don’t agree it was Norway. It was much closer to what Alastair Meeks described as a managed Hard Brexit, with political independence and freedom of action in services, digital, financial regulation and immigration, but staying part of the single market for goods with very close customs alignment on that.
    That is why the WA could not be divorced from the PD. A PD that was significantly softer, with Single Market alignment and Customs Union might have passed the Commons. May and the Tories could not be trusted on these so the opposition were right to vote against.

    All water under the bridge now. The loonies are now in charge.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,945

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    A whole header of virtue signalling.

    How very 2019.

    What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge
    His priority is to tell us he’s leaving and how he isn’t ghastly like them that the mob don’t like rather than dissect any fundamentals.

    The argument that a week of Boris - who has implemented nothing is awful and 3 years of May was fine is laughable.

    Reminds me of a joke -

    How do you know someone is a vegan ?

    Don’t worry they will have already told you.

    TGOHF - you are signalling your virtues are very different to David’s. You are a virtue signaller.

    I’ve never been a member but if I had I would have quit during the May debacle - I certainly stopped voting for them.

    If people quit after even a budget, a manifesto or even a bill being passed then fair enough.

    Quitting on personality and newspaper talk after a week after 3 years of dire government and shouting about how awful it all is - the logic is well a bit thin.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 20,514
    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Flanner said:

    This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?

    Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.

    True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.

    No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.

    17.6 million people voted to leave. The WA would have left on good terms with a probable very close Norwegian style relationship post transition, the only serious remainer arguments I've heard against it being we give up some control - well has Norway's economy died on the rocks with their lack of control ?
    Remoaners, and I am going to use the remoaner term here for yourself being unhappy with a very mild form of leave are just as responsible as Farage, Boris and Banks for pushing this country to the brink of a potentially economy trashing No Deal Exit. Like all those Labour MPs who refused to vote for the WA through their ridiculous tribalism this position is contemptible.
    Yep. This.

    And, FWIW, I don’t agree it was Norway. It was much closer to what Alastair Meeks described as a managed Hard Brexit, with political independence and freedom of action in services, digital, financial regulation and immigration, but staying part of the single market for goods with very close customs alignment on that.
    That is why the WA could not be divorced from the PD. A PD that was significantly softer, with Single Market alignment and Customs Union might have passed the Commons. May and the Tories could not be trusted on these so the opposition were right to vote against.

    All water under the bridge now. The loonies are now in charge.
    Except - passing the WA would almost certainly have triggered a general election, as the DUP would have switched to opposition.

    So either (a) Corbyn is so stupid he doesn't know how to count or (b) he was opposed to the WA because he genuinely wants to leave with no deal.

    I may be being unfair, of course. It may be both.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 28,060

    The Conservative Party as we have known it has ceased to exist. I wonder what comes next?

    The Maggies Party.

    A party based on how Thatcher governed.

    Pro-EC, fiscally responsible, pro business, socially liberal (section 28 apart), helping plebs do well out of their lives, radical reform of public services.
    It must be said, that at the time, the Conservative party of the 1980's was accused of being very unConservative.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 1,989

    I highly doubt that anyone will win the next election. We'll end up with multiple blocks in the Commons looking to find a route towards working together. Neither Tory nor Labour Parties in their current form seem willing to compromise even with themselves, so my conclusion is the parties split.

    I could have hung around to wait for a Labour split and gone with the sane wing. I am still receiving well argued missives as to why I should resume work and put the crazies to the sword. I just don't want to any more.

    Query - when you leave the Tory party do you leave leave? I cut up my Labour membership card, said "I quit" on social media and cancelled my direct debit. Yet I am still a member under rules which do not allow any member to leave other than by means of exclusion. Non-payment of subs for 6 months is automatic exclusion, so unless I get expelled in the meantime (such as declaring for or joining the Tories) I remain a member until early 2020...

    I didn’t know you’d quit. Congratulations. You are free!!!!

    However, you can never leave the Labour Party. I am still getting all my CLP literature, messages from the Great Leader, stuff from the regional organisation, and so on, and I resigned and stop paying subs well over a year ago.

    I am also seriously thinking of leaving the Labour Party. Apart from anything else, it will save me a lot of money. I have had disagreements with the party leadership before [ in fact, under Ed I was very comfortable ] but the latest stance on Brexit I find deeply disturbing. When Rebecca Long Name comes and blurts out some utterly bewildering words , you have to suspect they [ Corbyn & co. ], whatever they say, are very comfortable with the UK leaving with No Deal.
    If anyone missed the RLB interview on ch4 news last night it’s worth tracking down and watching especially if you think labour are now a remain or even 2nd referendum party
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 16
    Let's suppose that there is a VONC which the government loses. After talks have taken place, a new government is ready to be formed but Boris Johnson won't resign as PM. Suppose then that the Queen dismisses Johnson as Prime Minister and appoints LOTO (say) as Prime Minister but Johnson still will not leave No. 10. The new person appointed as Prime Minister will be legally the head of HMG and can attend talks with the EU and agree an extension to Article 50 until a general election has taken place.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 19,893
    If the conservative party dies will the country be any worse off ?

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 13,630
    Sean_F said:

    Flanner said:

    This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?

    Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.

    True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.

    No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.

    Much more fundamentally unConservative was the decision to join the EC in 1972. That was a very radical break with all that the Conservatives had believed in, prior to that point, done because the party was terrified of our trade unions and the Soviet Union.

    For many Conservatives, leaving the EU is like restoring the monarchy in 1660.
    Given Macmillan applied back in 1961, that is a radically eccentric view of what is ‘unConservative’
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 1,262

    On topic, I’m not naturally a joiner of anything. But I recognise that for anyone who has committed themselves as deeply to a party as David Herdson has to the Conservatives, leaving it must be like a divorce.

    Leaving my wife was easier for me than leaving the Conservative party.
    You’ve left too?
    Yes.

    See my post at 6:50.
    I let my membership of the LIb Dems expire in June.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 1,989

    If the conservative party dies will the country be any worse off ?

    Actually yes (even if I wouldn’t vote for it) is the answer but not this current manifestation, there will always be a need for a sane Centre right party to reduce the risk of far right nationalism taking over. ....... but something obviously went wrong somewhere this time
  • IanB2 said:

    David Howard (fleetingly of this parish) on R4 just before the 0700 news explaining why the speaker allowing an emergency debate and suspension of SO24 are key to MPs taking control of the agenda and stopping a no deal exit.

    I was supposed to be on to explain why Martha was wrong to say in her introduction to her interview with Jonathan Sumption yesterday that before the Fixed-term Parliaments Act a vote of no confidence led automatically to an election (fall of Baldwin in 1924, Lascelles/'Senex' letter of 1950 and all that). But apparently it's No Deal Brexit day on the BBC so interest in history has been abandoned in favour of fevered speculation about the future!
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 30,697

    If the conservative party dies will the country be any worse off ?

    Which country? The Conservative and Unionist Party has died. The populist English nationalist party that has replaced it won’t hold the UK together. And it’s clear now that Labour is happy to see it break-up, too. Those blue passports we’ll all get will become collectors’ items.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 15,452
    So PB ex Tories is now a thing.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 20,514
    fox327 said:

    Let's suppose that there is a VONC which the government loses. After talks have taken place, a new government is ready to be formed but Boris Johnson won't resign as PM. Suppose then that the Queen dismisses Johnson as Prime Minister and appoints LOTO (say) as Prime Minister but Johnson still will not leave No. 10. The new person appointed as Prime Minister will be legally the head of HMG and can attend talks with the EU and agree an extension to Article 50 until a general election has taken place.

    Helpfully, in that scenario Johnson would be guilty of high treason and could just be arrested.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,169

    If the conservative party dies will the country be any worse off ?

    The Conservative Party is the biggest obstacle to the create of the conservative party. The Labour Party represents a similar problem.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,945

    If the conservative party dies will the country be any worse off ?

    The party that foisted May, Hammond and Grieve on us ?

    No.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,967
    edited August 7
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/08/06/peoples-boris-cant-beat-parliament-prepare-prime-minister-ken/

    The Telegraph are worried that Ken Clarke will replace “the People’s Boris” (yes, that is really their headline)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 20,514

    If the conservative party dies will the country be any worse off ?

    Depends on what replaces it. If it's the Liberal Democrats, no. If it's the Faragistas, however...
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 30,697

    I highly doubt that anyone will win the next election. We'll end up with multiple blocks in the Commons looking to find a route towards working together. Neither Tory nor Labour Parties in their current form seem willing to compromise even with themselves, so my conclusion is the parties split.

    I could have hung around to wait for a Labour split and gone with the sane wing. I am still receiving well argued missives as to why I should resume work and put the crazies to the sword. I just don't want to any more.

    Query - when you leave the Tory party do you leave leave? I cut up my Labour membership card, said "I quit" on social media and cancelled my direct debit. Yet I am still a member under rules which do not allow any member to leave other than by means of exclusion. Non-payment of subs for 6 months is automatic exclusion, so unless I get expelled in the meantime (such as declaring for or joining the Tories) I remain a member until early 2020...

    I didn’t know you’d quit. Congratulations. You are free!!!!

    However, you can never leave the Labour Party. I am still getting all my CLP literature, messages from the Great Leader, stuff from the regional organisation, and so on, and I resigned and stop paying subs well over a year ago.

    I am also seriously thinking of leaving the Labour Party. Apart from anything else, it will save me a lot of money. I have had disagreements with the party leadership before [ in fact, under Ed I was very comfortable ] but the latest stance on Brexit I find deeply disturbing. When Rebecca Long Name comes and blurts out some utterly bewildering words , you have to suspect they [ Corbyn & co. ], whatever they say, are very comfortable with the UK leaving with No Deal.

    Labour is so buggered. And it’s not just Brexit. McDonnell backing a new Scottish independence referendum has cost it all its Scottish seats - and probably a fair few in England, too.

  • YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    Good God. Whatever my political differences with David that conservatives of the calibre of David are leaving the Conservative Party is a portent of how deep an abyss we are in. I sense this at a deep and psychosomatic level now and on a daily basis. As I reevaluate my own political options I consider things previously unthinkable. I know we are heading for national disaster but actions like David's really bring it home. Good God.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 24,388
    @IanB2 FPT voting leave was not a mistake

    The execution of Brexit has been appalling

    Politicians on all sides have been self centred and destructive

    But sometimes when you can’t go back you only have to worry about the best way to move forward. (Paul Coelho)

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 28,060
    Nigelb said:

    Sean_F said:

    Flanner said:

    This may sound insensitive, but aren't you as guilty as the Johnsonites of putting ideology before pragmatism?

    Your dilemma starts with the profoundly unpragmatic (and, to me, unConservative) fixation with delivering "the referendum result" No previous British government in history has chained itself so foolishly, and all our problems start with this preposterously unBritish obsession.

    True: today';s Tory party has made things worse by allowing an extremist cabal to define what that result was. But there is reasonable evidence the population has moved on from its views in June 2016 - and by refusing to accept a referendum rerun (or a clear restatement of the fundamental British constitutional rule that: Parliament decides, not a glorified opinion poll), you've painted yourself into an impossible position.

    No sensible party will court you as long as you remain wedded to a - frankly - pig-headed and unBritish obsession with trying to tell Britain what it was thinking on one day three years ago. That's how America misrules itself.

    Much more fundamentally unConservative was the decision to join the EC in 1972. That was a very radical break with all that the Conservatives had believed in, prior to that point, done because the party was terrified of our trade unions and the Soviet Union.

    For many Conservatives, leaving the EU is like restoring the monarchy in 1660.
    Given Macmillan applied back in 1961, that is a radically eccentric view of what is ‘unConservative’
    And, was wrong to do so. He was searching for a substitute for the Empire.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 29,487
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    A whole header of virtue signalling.

    How very 2019.

    What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge
    His priority is to tell us he’s leaving and how he isn’t ghastly like them that the mob don’t like rather than dissect any fundamentals.

    The argument that a week of Boris - who has implemented nothing is awful and 3 years of May was fine is laughable.

    Reminds me of a joke -

    How do you know someone is a vegan ?

    Don’t worry they will have already told you.
    I think you’re being very unfair on David. He really isn’t like that.

    I’m upset and shocked too but we don’t need to snipe at him. He’ll feel awful as it is.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 28,060

    If the conservative party dies will the country be any worse off ?


    No. There is a time for everything, and all political parties run their course, eventually.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,988

    I highly doubt that anyone will win the next election. We'll end up with multiple blocks in the Commons looking to find a route towards working together. Neither Tory nor Labour Parties in their current form seem willing to compromise even with themselves, so my conclusion is the parties split.

    I could have hung around to wait for a Labour split and gone with the sane wing. I am still receiving well argued missives as to why I should resume work and put the crazies to the sword. I just don't want to any more.

    Query - when you leave the Tory party do you leave leave? I cut up my Labour membership card, said "I quit" on social media and cancelled my direct debit. Yet I am still a member under rules which do not allow any member to leave other than by means of exclusion. Non-payment of subs for 6 months is automatic exclusion, so unless I get expelled in the meantime (such as declaring for or joining the Tories) I remain a member until early 2020...

    I didn’t know you’d quit. Congratulations. You are free!!!!

    However, you can never leave the Labour Party. I am still getting all my CLP literature, messages from the Great Leader, stuff from the regional organisation, and so on, and I resigned and stop paying subs well over a year ago.

    I am also seriously thinking of leaving the Labour Party. Apart from anything else, it will save me a lot of money. I have had disagreements with the party leadership before [ in fact, under Ed I was very comfortable ] but the latest stance on Brexit I find deeply disturbing. When Rebecca Long Name comes and blurts out some utterly bewildering words , you have to suspect they [ Corbyn & co. ], whatever they say, are very comfortable with the UK leaving with No Deal.

    Labour is so buggered. And it’s not just Brexit. McDonnell backing a new Scottish independence referendum has cost it all its Scottish seats - and probably a fair few in England, too.

    McDonnell is just accepting political reality. If Holyrood votes for a further Sindyref, it is politically impossible to deny it.
  • CurrystardogCurrystardog Posts: 82
    edited August 7

    Yet all those self righteous MPs interviewed at the Commons telling the news what a great job they had done by voting against the WA. Their actions have led to no deal pure and simple. I hold Yvette Cooper most liable. She thought she was being so clever. The look on her face when Boris was at the Dispatch Box telling her that he would definitely leave on the 31/10/2019 come what may told a story. The WA, though not perfect, was always going to be the best that we would get from the EU. Parliament should have resoundingly voted for it.
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 466
    Scott_P said:
    Well, the baby boomers wanted to invoke the WWII spirit, a bit of rationing will get the party started nicely.

    Slice of powdered egg and turnip pie, anyone?
This discussion has been closed.