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  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Anorak said:
    And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...
    An interesting point though is that we are the largest Mozzarella producer in the EU, most of it in Wales.
    What tariffs will be imposed on mozzarella cheese does any one actually know without looking it up?
  • Brexit. Sending people batshit since 2016.
    Perhaps the only good thing to come out of it will be the much needed shake up of our political parties and system. If only Westminster would fall into the Thames as well, so that we can build a proper parliament in its rightful place up here in Loughborough, it will all have been worth it.
  • Interesting replies to Mr Herdson's tweet:

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1158993085818384385?s=20

    In fairness I think it shows less abuse than we routinely see on the left under similar circumstances.

    My *favourite* reply and David's awesome reply

    https://twitter.com/Victori88961978/status/1159002537615343616
    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1159004695706423297
  • DennisBetsDennisBets Posts: 244
    So David Herdson has crash landed in Scotland and has just been seized by local farmers. Another PB tory more worried about what will happen at Nuremberg now you have all voted in psychopaths.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    Pulpstar said:


    17.6 million people voted to leave. The WA would have left on good terms with a probable very close Norwegian style relationship post transition, the only serious remainer arguments I've heard against it being we give up some control - well has Norway's economy died on the rocks with their lack of control ?
    Remoaners, and I am going to use the remoaner term here for yourself being unhappy with a very mild form of leave are just as responsible as Farage, Boris and Banks for pushing this country to the brink of a potentially economy trashing No Deal Exit. Like all those Labour MPs who refused to vote for the WA through their ridiculous tribalism this position is contemptible.

    The scale of the constitutional disaster that is Brexit is insufficiently realised. There are no good, or in fact sustainable, solutions available to us right now. This includes a second referendum, cancellation and Norway. Norway requires accepting EU regulation and oversight with no input or debate. The UK isn't Norway and I don't see outsourcing a large chunk of our economic and diplomatic policy to a third party being acceptable, particularly in the light of that Leave vote. May's Deal wasn't Norway and implied a relatively hard Brexit once the unicorns are swept away. But like Norway it did accept a Withdrawal Agreement and transition period
    Continuing political and economic integration with the rest of the EU was not a good or sustainable option either. It was always going to provoke a reaction, eventually, because it was taking people in a direction they didn't want to go.
    We are where we are. You can't hope to solve a problem until you recognise you have it. In this case to recognise Brexit to be a disaster. At that point, you can work out the least damaging remaining option, which I would suggest is either Norway or indefinite delay.

    We are not at that level of awareness of the problem we are in. That's why we are thrashing around. No Deal is a manifestation of Brexit failure.
    I don't see it as a disaster. But, then our ideological outlooks differ.
    Our ideological outlooks do differ, but that's not really my interest in Brexit on this forum. My interest is how the country deals politically with a central and now unavoidably failed project.

    Right now it's in denial about the failure.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Interesting replies to Mr Herdson's tweet:

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1158993085818384385?s=20

    In fairness I think it shows less abuse than we routinely see on the left under similar circumstances.

    My *favourite* reply and David's awesome reply

    https://twitter.com/Victori88961978/status/1159002537615343616
    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1159004695706423297
    The classic everyone who voted for Brexit must be Russian. Bit like saying everyone who voted Remain must hate Britain.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    As a representative of the pharma / Medtech industry I thought I would try to explain the issue we face. It is not the problem of a truck being physically stuck at Dover that is the problem but the lack of a clear regulatory regime. There is talk of a UK mark to replace a CE mark but no guidance has been issued on this proposal which would take at least a year to implement. In the meantime the country cannot just act as if nothing has happened. Our industry is naturally cautious and would rather take product off the market than produce it illegally,

    This is already happening new product introduction in the UK is slowing down and manufacturers are focusing on other markets. The drop in the £ is accelerating the desire to look elsewhere for business. There is no incentive for our industry to support brexit.

    As has been rightly said people die every day in the UK. The NHS saves many of them. It will still do that but just not as well as before in comparison to say Germany. Waiting times will grow and fewer of the latest techniques will be available.

    We can unilaterally continue to recognise the CE mark until the new regime is ready

    (Btw in the medical industry CE mark is BS. It doesn’t have relevant efficacy data)
    Not sure we can on wto as this would be discriminatory. We would then have to recognise China marks and Indian marks on generic drugs. Also how do we ensue against fakes which is a major issue in our industry. Would it be illegal to supply a fake ce mark device? Just not sure.

    I assume my team of phds and engineers who spend their life on regulatory compliance will take your comment on the ce mark well. I sometimes wonder whether the patients we serve really deserve half the technology we develop. Brexiters are mostly old so if it goes wrong it maybe considered as serendipity
    It’s not discriminatory to recognise a mark from one country but not others

    My comment on CE marks were commercial. Many start up medtech companies focus on getting their CE mark as a meaningful milestone. It authorises you to sell and is required (so compliance is critical). But customers rarely see it as validating and as a reason to buy - ie it’s necessary but not sufficient. So “CE marks are BS” should be seen in that context... but in medtech I mainly focus on disruptive technologies which colours my perspective
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749

    So David Herdson has crash landed in Scotland and has just been seized by local farmers. Another PB tory more worried about what will happen at Nuremberg now you have all voted in psychopaths.

    Sir, I applaud your courageous & startling venture into Godwinism.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    edited August 2019
    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    Pulpstar said:


    17.6 million people voted to leave. The WA would have left on good terms with a probable very close Norwegian style relationship post transition, the only serious remainer arguments I've heard against it being we give up some control - well has Norway's economy died on the rocks with their lack of control ?
    Remoaners, and I am going to use the remoaner term here for yourself being unhappy with a very mild form of leave are just as responsible as Farage, Boris and Banks for pushing this country to the brink of a potentially economy trashing No Deal Exit. Like all those Labour MPs who refused to vote for the WA through their ridiculous tribalism this position is contemptible.

    The scale of the constitutional disaster that is Brexit is insufficiently realised. There are no good, or in fact sustainable, solutions available to us right now. This includes a second referendum, cancellation and Norway. Norway requires accepting EU regulation and oversight with no input or debate. The UK isn't Norway and I don't see outsourcing a large chunk of our economic and diplomatic policy to a third party being acceptable, particularly in the light of that Leave vote. May's Deal wasn't Norway and implied a relatively hard Brexit once the unicorns are swept away. But like Norway it did accept a Withdrawal Agreement and transition period
    Continuing political and economic integration with the rest of the EU was not a good or sustainable option either. It was always going to provoke a reaction, eventually, because it was taking people in a direction they didn't want to go.
    We are where we are. You can't hope to solve a problem until you recognise you have it. In this case to recognise Brexit to be a disaster. At that point, you can work out the least damaging remaining option, which I would suggest is either Norway or indefinite delay.

    We are not at that level of awareness of the problem we are in. That's why we are thrashing around. No Deal is a manifestation of Brexit failure.
    I don't see it as a disaster. But, then our ideological outlooks differ.
    Our ideological outlooks do differ, but that's not really my interest in Brexit on this forum. My interest is how the country deals politically with a central and now unavoidably failed project.

    Right now it's in denial about the failure.
    I think failure is now understood (maybe not by Sean F) but is actively lusted after all the more intensely.

    There’s probably a long German word for this.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    @IanB2 FPT voting leave was not a mistak

    Fine. We can argue the merits of the destination. My point is simply that a practical realist like our rcs might have focused more on the journey, which was always likely to be extremely problematic and damaging.
    I disagree. Of course there were always going to be challenges but if the WA had been approved a year ago there wouldn’t have been much damage
    True (noting that the WA is simply base camp on a long and arduous climb), but then the willingness of the hard leavers to sabotage any sort of compromise Brexit wasn't unforeseeable, was it?
    Probably not although I’m disappointed with the number.

    But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well

    This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA
    One of Theresa May's many mistakes was to treat the referendum result as a general election result wherein the opposition is rightly ignored. She set up the "crush the saboteurs" narrative and began to run Brexit as a Conservative Party project (as indeed we are seeing it is now).

    The Opposition's role is to oppose. It is to look at every government policy and say, legitimately, I wouldn't have started from there. That's what people vote for them to do. Tax, health, defence, etc. The government doesn't get to decide which national events are supposed to have unconditional support from the opposition.
    Sure, but the consequences of no deal are less than favourable.

    Opposing the WA had a price tag attached
    No deal was not the only alternative once the WA was rejected. The government could have changed its red lines and sought a compromise with Labour. It could have gone for a second referendum. It could have called a general election. It could have even revoked Article 50. Instead it has chosen no deal. That is their choice, nobody else's. Don't blame the opposition.
    It spent a long time negotiating with Labour

    I blame all MPs regardless of party
    Start with blaming yourself, and then work back from there.
    I’m just a voter... we’re never to blame
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    Anyway, it has been an interesting morning, but the pantomime self-destruction of the Tories, whilst amusing in its predictability, is eclipsed by other far much urgent concerns such as "What shall I have for lunch?"

    Slan a fhagail anois :)
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    Brom said:

    Interesting replies to Mr Herdson's tweet:

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1158993085818384385?s=20

    In fairness I think it shows less abuse than we routinely see on the left under similar circumstances.

    My *favourite* reply and David's awesome reply

    https://twitter.com/Victori88961978/status/1159002537615343616
    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1159004695706423297
    The classic everyone who voted for Brexit must be Russian. Bit like saying everyone who voted Remain must hate Britain.
    The classic everyone who opposes project Headbanging Brexit must be an elite MP opposed to the unanimous will of the ordinary, decent voter, I would have thought.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745


    Labour are currently getting horrendous Poll ratings, and their performance in a Wales By Election beggared belief. They are now much further from power then they were at the start of the year.

    Actually, no. IF the Conservatives fail to deliver Brexit on 31/10, as I'm sure @HYUFD would confirm, there's every chance Corbyn could be the leader of the largest party in the new Commons after a GE.

    There's also, and there's no point beating about the bush even though the usual suspects will chip in with a snide comment or two, the possibility IF a No Deal Brexit causes significant economic dislocation and disruption, the anger will all be focused on Johnson and the Brexiteers (the "wrong type of Brexit") and that will open the door for Labour.

  • DennisBetsDennisBets Posts: 244

    So David Herdson has crash landed in Scotland and has just been seized by local farmers. Another PB tory more worried about what will happen at Nuremberg now you have all voted in psychopaths.

    Sir, I applaud your courageous & startling venture into Godwinism.
    Alas not even the adventures of Caleb Williams could adequately portray the seeming collapse of sensible politics
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    IanB2 said:

    Charles said:

    @IanB2 FPT voting leave was not a mistake

    The execution of Brexit has been appalling

    Politicians on all sides have been self centred and destructive

    But sometimes when you can’t go back you only have to worry about the best way to move forward. (Paul Coelho)

    Fine. We can argue the merits of the destination. My point is simply that a practical realist like our rcs might have focused more on the journey, which was always likely to be extremely problematic and damaging.
    I disagree. Of course there were always going to be challenges but if the WA had been approved a year ago there wouldn’t have been much damage
    True (noting that the WA is simply base camp on a long and arduous climb), but then the willingness of the hard leavers to sabotage any sort of compromise Brexit wasn't unforeseeable, was it?
    Probably not although I’m disappointed with the number.

    But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well

    This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA
    Translation: look here chaps, you've had your fun, now do as I say (preferably delivered by Terry Thomas lookalike carrying hunting whip).
    Translation: MPs have an obligation to look after the interests of their constituents. The current situation was predicted to be the result of the 3rd failure to pass the WA.

    Either those MPs don’t think No Deal is that bad (in which case they are idiots or liars or both) or they have put their own interests ahead of their constituents and country.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136
    edited August 2019
    Brom said:

    Interesting replies to Mr Herdson's tweet:

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1158993085818384385?s=20

    In fairness I think it shows less abuse than we routinely see on the left under similar circumstances.

    My *favourite* reply and David's awesome reply

    https://twitter.com/Victori88961978/status/1159002537615343616
    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1159004695706423297
    The classic everyone who voted for Brexit must be Russian. Bit like saying everyone who voted Remain must hate Britain.
    Look at the account, dunno if it's russian but it's definitely somebody's information ops as opposed to a normal human.
  • Scott_P said:

    So we see these new members who are now joining being regarded as entryists when many of them are probably former Tory members who are now rejoining after having left in disgust at the domination of the party by Europhiles.

    This is why I have no sympathy for people like David and Richard. They have long disregarded the views of other party members secure in the knowledge that the party leadership was on their side. Now they find that has changed and they should be starting to understand how all those other members who left before them felt. I doubt they will, as this thread header and David's tweets show.

    For decades, Labour and Tories were "broad church" parties, who accommodated the headbangers at both ends. At no point did they feel compelled to leave by leadership who tolerated them.

    The new leadership holds non-headbanger members in contempt, prompting the exodus.
    LOL. What utter bollocks. So why exactly did all those tens of thousands of Tory members leave - you know, the ones Cameron referred to as fruitcakes and loonies? Hardly a sign of tolerance.

    I am getting great sense of satisfaction seeing the tables turned in this way even if I don't support Boris.
    Fake news, Cameron called Kippers mostly loonies, fruitcakes, and racists, not Tory members.
    Given that most of those Kippers were ex-Tory members driven out by Cameron and his ilk the difference is negligible.

    As I said I am glad that people like you and David are now starting to understand what it has been like for so many Conservatives in this country for a very long time. Perhaps you should reflect on that. The Tory leadership refusal to admit the party and the country was deeply unhappy with EU membership is the root cause of all of this. It is about time you took some responsibility.
  • stodge said:


    Labour are currently getting horrendous Poll ratings, and their performance in a Wales By Election beggared belief. They are now much further from power then they were at the start of the year.

    Actually, no. IF the Conservatives fail to deliver Brexit on 31/10, as I'm sure @HYUFD would confirm, there's every chance Corbyn could be the leader of the largest party in the new Commons after a GE.

    There's also, and there's no point beating about the bush even though the usual suspects will chip in with a snide comment or two, the possibility IF a No Deal Brexit causes significant economic dislocation and disruption, the anger will all be focused on Johnson and the Brexiteers (the "wrong type of Brexit") and that will open the door for Labour.

    It will open the door for the Lib Dems, not Labour
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Brom said:

    Interesting replies to Mr Herdson's tweet:

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1158993085818384385?s=20

    In fairness I think it shows less abuse than we routinely see on the left under similar circumstances.

    My *favourite* reply and David's awesome reply

    https://twitter.com/Victori88961978/status/1159002537615343616
    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1159004695706423297
    The classic everyone who voted for Brexit must be Russian. Bit like saying everyone who voted Remain must hate Britain.
    It's an amusing pop but occam's razor strongly suggests she lives in southwest Sheffield given the rest of her twitter feed.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    So PB ex Tories is now a thing.

    It has long been a thing. It is just that they were from the other side of the debate before and so everyone thought they could be ignored.

    What is a thing now is PB ex-Tories who think they had some god given right to expect the party to continue to follow the same failed policies and alienate a large majority of the population and who now want to write articles about how terrible it is that they have had to leave their particular little club.
    That is unfair. When @Sean_Fear left the Tories to join UKIP a few years ago OGH wrote a very good header about it, why it was not good for the Tories etc.

    A party which drives away long-standing committed loyal members is in trouble.

    Particularly if it does not listen but is just personally nasty about the individuals concerned.

    I am not a member of a political party nor ever likely to be but I can see that for those who are it must be a great wrench. It's a shame for all of us if political parties become narrow and obsessive.
    The Tories have lost more voters to the Brexit Party by extending than they will to the LDs by going for No Deal. I backed the Withdrawal Agreement and an orderly departure from the EU and am sorry most MPs did not but that having been voted down 3 times No Deal Brexit it has to be as if the Tories fail to deliver Brexit they will go the way of the dodo and the Brexit Party will replace them as the main party of the right
    Parliament voted against the WA because it was too 'Hard' a Brexit. A cross-party, consensual, soft and cosy Brexit would have passed.

    However, May was too stupid / pig headed to agree to this, and instead tried to chase the support of the Tory extremists, who have now taken over.

    Rejection of the WA was not a cry for No Deal, whatever you and your new hero might think. Parliament will rightfully do whatever it takes to block it from happening.
    The only thing they can do is No Confidence the government. If they do, then fair play to them.

    I have my doubts.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    Pulpstar said:



    Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think.
    Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think. I do not expect the Labour leadership to be flexible on this.

    My Labour LIst article proposing a way through on this is now up:

    https://labourlist.org/2019/08/how-labour-can-stop-no-deal/
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    IanB2 said:

    I do wonder what the consequences of a VoNC would be with the electorate. As we know with the McMao and RLB comments a GoNU is now not an option, that means in reality a GE. This GE could take place a short time before the 31st Oct.

    Is it really sensible for our politicians to go to the electorate just days before? The electorate could view them all as irresponsible and produce a very strange result, with the exception if Scotland.

    The Shadow Cabinet have to say that Jezza is the only alternative PM they would countenance. It would be a bit odd for them to be advocating Starmer or Swinson at this hypothetical juncture. However, when we reach make-or-break time, it won't be the front benches that decide, just a majority of the house. Bozo and Jezza will be impotent in the face of a democratic desire to halt No Deal.
    But they have to say that now,don't they? If they said "we want Corbyn but we would also back Clarke, Vince or whoever", Corbyn would never get a look in to begin with.
    What does the GoNU do on its second day, immediately after stopping Brexit? Unless it calls a general election, all Labour will have done is get Boris out of the hole he is digging. The time for this sort of kitchen coup was under Theresa May when the Cabinet could have ousted her (and landed my bet on Hammond) yet continued as a Conservative government.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401
    IanB2 said:

    I do wonder what the consequences of a VoNC would be with the electorate. As we know with the McMao and RLB comments a GoNU is now not an option, that means in reality a GE. This GE could take place a short time before the 31st Oct.

    Is it really sensible for our politicians to go to the electorate just days before? The electorate could view them all as irresponsible and produce a very strange result, with the exception if Scotland.

    The Shadow Cabinet have to say that Jezza is the only alternative PM they would countenance. It would be a bit odd for them to be advocating Starmer or Swinson at this hypothetical juncture. However, when we reach make-or-break time, it won't be the front benches that decide, just a majority of the house. Bozo and Jezza will be impotent in the face of a democratic desire to halt No Deal.
    But they have to say that now,don't they? If they said "we want Corbyn but we would also back Clarke, Vince or whoever", Corbyn would never get a look in to begin with.
    Exactly.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    nichomar said:

    Anorak said:
    And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...
    An interesting point though is that we are the largest Mozzarella producer in the EU, most of it in Wales.
    What tariffs will be imposed on mozzarella cheese does any one actually know without looking it up?
    https://dairy.ahdb.org.uk/news/news-articles/april-2019/mozzarella-filling-the-brexit-void/#.XUqk8MqxWhA Actually zero I think on imports but 45% on exports bloody complicated this easy to do this WTO brexit shit
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    As a representative of the pharma / Medtech industry I thought I would try to explain the issue we face. It is not the problem of a truck being physically stuck at Dover that is the problem but the lack of a clear regulatory regime. There is talk of a UK mark to replace a CE mark but no guidance has been issued on this proposal which would take at least a year to implement. In the meantime the country cannot just act as if nothing has happened. Our industry is naturally cautious and would rather take product off the market than produce it illegally,

    This is already happening new product introduction in the UK is slowing down and manufacturers are focusing on other markets. The drop in the £ is accelerating the desire to look elsewhere for business. There is no incentive for our industry to support brexit.

    As has been rightly said people die every day in the UK. The NHS saves many of them. It will still do that but just not as well as before in comparison to say Germany. Waiting times will grow and fewer of the latest techniques will be available.

    We can unilaterally continue to recognise the CE mark until the new regime is ready

    (Btw in the medical industry CE mark is BS. It doesn’t have relevant efficacy data)
    Sorry you are wrong. All medical devices have to have CE mark in order to be marketed, and to get it they need to go through regulatory compliance procedures, either clinical trails or submissions based on predicate. The latest regulations, known as the MDR complicate this further. What will happen after a no-deal Brexit is completely unknown and highly unpredictable. It is extremely concerning for manufacturers, exporters, importers and patients who use the products. So no, CE Mark is not BS at all!! Very far from it.
    I replied in detail to @hamiltonace

    Charitably I would say that CE marks are "necessary but not sufficient" for commercial success in the medical device industry
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,151
    Pulpstar said:

    It is not the problem of a truck being physically stuck at Dover that is the problem but the lack of a clear regulatory regime. There is talk of a UK mark to replace a CE mark but no guidance has been issued on this proposal which would take at least a year to implement.

    This is the kind if thing that will kill the Tories if they go through with No Deal. No Deal enthusiasts will just be assuming this stuff has been dealt with.

    I think this also shows the (narrow political) wisdom of Labour's strategy of holding back a bit on the VONC etc rather than hitting the government at the first possible opportunity. Once you get to early September businesses will be screaming their disbelief that nobody in government can tell them WTF they're supposed to do to keep doing business at the end of the following month. They really want at least a news cycle of ministers making confused hopeless faces on TV in response to simple questions before it turns to the whole business of bringing the government down and putting Corbyn or some other caretaker in Number 10.
    Yes. The VONC has to come when it is clear that chaos looms - when Parliament resumes in October may be the moment.
    Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think.
    Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think. I do not expect the Labour leadership to be flexible on this.
    They'd be able to console themselves that Corbyn wouldn't be able to actually enact any damaging legislation without a majority, so a GNU led by Corbyn wouldn't necessarily concern them policy wise.
    Thing is, I think concerns about Corbyn go beyond the fact they think his economic policies are bonkers. Many, even within his own party, think that Corbyn is a genuinely evil human being, and that letting him become PM would be a moral stain upon this country. Letting Corbyn become PM is wrong in itself.
    Personally, I'd choose a minority Corbyn government over No Deal, but I'm not completely sure that Lee, Letwin, Gauke etc... feel the same way, even while knowing No Deal would be a disaster.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    stodge said:

    Charles said:


    But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well

    This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA

    Heath got the Accession Treaty through the Commons with the support of pro-EEC Labour MPs like Roy Jenkins and David Owen. That in turn helped develop the split within the Labour party and was a step on the road to the schism of 1981. Heath faced a rebellion on his own side but the rebels got their revenge by ousting him in favour of Thatcher in 1975.

    Wilson was, as I recall, fairly agnostic on the EEC but what he wasn't was a doctrinaire Marxist. Corbyn's objection to the WA is that it doesn't come from that perspective and doesn't embody principles around re-nationalisation and workers' rights that would protect such measures from a returning Conservative Government.

    The other side is that IF Labour had signed up to the WA and we had left on 29/3, May would have gone, a new Conservative leader immediately calls a GE having delivered Brexit and the Conservatives are back for another 5 years. Labour isn't in the market for doing the Tories those kind of favours. It suits Labour politically to leave the Conservatives with the hot potato to hold as the longer it goes on, so they reason, the closer they get to power.

    Motivated self-interest, don't you just love it?
    When was the third WA vote? I thought it was after the March deadline.

    That was when they pushed it too far.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Scott_P said:

    So we see these new members who are now joining being regarded as entryists when many of them are probably former Tory members who are now rejoining after having left in disgust at the domination of the party by Europhiles.

    This is why I have no sympathy for people like David and Richard. They have long disregarded the views of other party members secure in the knowledge that the party leadership was on their side. Now they find that has changed and they should be starting to understand how all those other members who left before them felt. I doubt they will, as this thread header and David's tweets show.

    For decades, Labour and Tories were "broad church" parties, who accommodated the headbangers at both ends. At no point did they feel compelled to leave by leadership who tolerated them.

    The new leadership holds non-headbanger members in contempt, prompting the exodus.
    LOL. What utter bollocks. So why exactly did all those tens of thousands of Tory members leave - you know, the ones Cameron referred to as fruitcakes and loonies? Hardly a sign of tolerance.

    I am getting great sense of satisfaction seeing the tables turned in this way even if I don't support Boris.
    Fake news, Cameron called Kippers mostly loonies, fruitcakes, and racists, not Tory members.
    Given that most of those Kippers were ex-Tory members driven out by Cameron and his ilk the difference is negligible.

    As I said I am glad that people like you and David are now starting to understand what it has been like for so many Conservatives in this country for a very long time. Perhaps you should reflect on that. The Tory leadership refusal to admit the party and the country was deeply unhappy with EU membership is the root cause of all of this. It is about time you took some responsibility.
    How many therapists have ever discovered that the root cause of a patient's unhappiness is EU membership?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    Sean_F said:

    FF43 said:

    Pulpstar said:


    17.6 million people voted to leave. The WA would have left on good terms with a probable very close Norwegian style relationship post transition, the only serious remainer arguments I've heard against it being we give up some control - well has Norway's economy died on the rocks with their lack of control ?
    Remoaners, and I am going to use the remoaner term here for yourself being unhappy with a very mild form of leave are just as responsible as Farage, Boris and Banks for pushing this country to the brink of a potentially economy trashing No Deal Exit. Like all those Labour MPs who refused to vote for the WA through their ridiculous tribalism this position is contemptible.

    The scale of the constitutional disaster that is Brexit is insufficiently realised. There are no good, or in fact sustainable, solutions available to us right now. This includes a second referendum, cancellation and Norway. Norway requires accepting EU regulation and oversight with no input or debate. The UK isn't Norway and I don't see outsourcing a large chunk of our economic and diplomatic policy to a third party being acceptable, particularly in the light of that Leave vote. May's Deal wasn't Norway and implied a relatively hard Brexit once the unicorns are swept away. But like Norway it did accept a Withdrawal Agreement and transition period
    Continuing political and economic integration with the rest of the EU was not a good or sustainable option either. It was always going to provoke a reaction, eventually, because it was taking people in a direction they didn't want to go.
    We are where we are. You can't hope to solve a problem until you recognise you have it. In this case to recognise Brexit to be a disaster. At that point, you can work out the least damaging remaining option, which I would suggest is either Norway or indefinite delay.

    We are not at that level of awareness of the problem we are in. That's why we are thrashing around. No Deal is a manifestation of Brexit failure.
    I don't see it as a disaster. But, then our ideological outlooks differ.
    Our ideological outlooks do differ, but that's not really my interest in Brexit on this forum. My interest is how the country deals politically with a central and now unavoidably failed project.

    Right now it's in denial about the failure.
    I think failure is now understood (maybe not by Sean F) but is actively lusted after all the more intensely.

    There’s probably a long German word for this.
    Todeswunsch is actually quite snappy.
  • .
    Pulpstar said:

    Brom said:

    Interesting replies to Mr Herdson's tweet:

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1158993085818384385?s=20

    In fairness I think it shows less abuse than we routinely see on the left under similar circumstances.

    My *favourite* reply and David's awesome reply

    https://twitter.com/Victori88961978/status/1159002537615343616
    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1159004695706423297
    The classic everyone who voted for Brexit must be Russian. Bit like saying everyone who voted Remain must hate Britain.
    It's an amusing pop but occam's razor strongly suggests she lives in southwest Sheffield given the rest of her twitter feed.
    She wishes she lives in South West Sheffield.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    edited August 2019
    kjh said:

    malcolmg said:

    FF43 said:

    TGOHF said:

    A whole header of virtue signalling.

    How very 2019.

    What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge
    "Virtue signalling" is a lazy term that aims to delegitimise principle.

    Devastating critique of the Party from a conservative point of view. The Lib Dems are the clear conservative option these days, curiously, including keeping the United Kingdom intact.
    If you think the Lib Dems are the answer then the UK is truly F****D and deluded to boot.
    Hi Malc.

    As a LD in Surrey, whose only connection to Scotland is 4 visits and a Scottish wife whose entire family have defected to the South and East of England I would appreciate some feedback on the relationship between the LDs and SNP.

    From my point of view (having no local knowledge) I feel there should be very little difference. Both are socially liberal and have similar economic views. The LDs believe in the EU and as much devolution as possible and the SNP believe in Independence within the EU. The difference between those two positions appears to be a dance on a pin head.

    So what is it? From my point of view (if we are both in the EU) I have no issue with Independence.
    Hello, Their Scottish leader never ever stops banging on about how their should not be any chance of any further devolution / independence. Their "NEW" leader at Westminster's first sentence was to utter "I will not allow another independence referendum". So you can take from that , the Scottish party and the Scottish Westminster leader are neither Liberal or Democratic.
    Hard to see them going anywhere in Scotland with those views. Rennie the Scottish leader is just rubbish and my expectations of the whining Swinson is that she will be no better, she is a real right wing Tory at heart.
    They do not seem to care what the public think , only their own entrenched views and seem to dislike democracy.
    PS you may see different views in England but dire up here for sure and going nowhere.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    Scott_P said:

    So we see these new members who are now joining being regarded as entryists when many of them are probably former Tory members who are now rejoining after having left in disgust at the domination of the party by Europhiles.

    This is why I have no sympathy for people like David and Richard. They have long disregarded the views of other party members secure in the knowledge that the party leadership was on their side. Now they find that has changed and they should be starting to understand how all those other members who left before them felt. I doubt they will, as this thread header and David's tweets show.

    For decades, Labour and Tories were "broad church" parties, who accommodated the headbangers at both ends. At no point did they feel compelled to leave by leadership who tolerated them.

    The new leadership holds non-headbanger members in contempt, prompting the exodus.
    LOL. What utter bollocks. So why exactly did all those tens of thousands of Tory members leave - you know, the ones Cameron referred to as fruitcakes and loonies? Hardly a sign of tolerance.

    I am getting great sense of satisfaction seeing the tables turned in this way even if I don't support Boris.
    Fake news, Cameron called Kippers mostly loonies, fruitcakes, and racists, not Tory members.
    Given that most of those Kippers were ex-Tory members driven out by Cameron and his ilk the difference is negligible.

    As I said I am glad that people like you and David are now starting to understand what it has been like for so many Conservatives in this country for a very long time. Perhaps you should reflect on that. The Tory leadership refusal to admit the party and the country was deeply unhappy with EU membership is the root cause of all of this. It is about time you took some responsibility.
    I'm certainly not glad.

    I'd rather see the Right united than divided.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    nichomar said:

    Anorak said:
    And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...
    An interesting point though is that we are the largest Mozzarella producer in the EU, most of it in Wales.
    What tariffs will be imposed on mozzarella cheese does any one actually know without looking it up?
    Approximately 60% tariff. The Welsh mozzarella will be unexportable under No Deal.

    https://ahdb.org.uk/eu-and-uk-import-tariff-rates-for-selected-dairy-products
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited August 2019
    Charles said:

    When was the third WA vote? I thought it was after the March deadline.

    That was when they pushed it too far.

    Do you know what the score is on the medical radioactive isotopes used for cancer patients in the event of No Deal?

    Have a friend whose father has been diagnosed with cancer and he's seen reports that cancer patients might suffer in the event of No Deal due the difficulty in importing the required stuff?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
  • dr_spyn said:
    Will it be a blow by blow account of the affair?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited August 2019
    Charles said:

    stodge said:

    Charles said:


    But the moderates on Labour’s side deserve massive opprobrium as well

    This is one of those issues which should rise above party politics. It’s fine to carp and play games and criticise. But when push comes to shove (may be on the 2nd or 3rd try after they had extracted maximum concessions/inflicted damage) they should have done the right thing and voted for the WA

    Heath got the Accession Treaty through the Commons with the support of pro-EEC Labour MPs like Roy Jenkins and David Owen. That in turn helped develop the split within the Labour party and was a step on the road to the schism of 1981. Heath faced a rebellion on his own side but the rebels got their revenge by ousting him in favour of Thatcher in 1975.

    Wilson was, as I recall, fairly agnostic on the EEC but what he wasn't was a doctrinaire Marxist. Corbyn's objection to the WA is that it doesn't come from that perspective and doesn't embody principles around re-nationalisation and workers' rights that would protect such measures from a returning Conservative Government.

    The other side is that IF Labour had signed up to the WA and we had left on 29/3, May would have gone, a new Conservative leader immediately calls a GE having delivered Brexit and the Conservatives are back for another 5 years. Labour isn't in the market for doing the Tories those kind of favours. It suits Labour politically to leave the Conservatives with the hot potato to hold as the longer it goes on, so they reason, the closer they get to power.

    Motivated self-interest, don't you just love it?
    When was the third WA vote? I thought it was after the March deadline.

    That was when they pushed it too far.
    Who among us can forget Michael Gove's 10-minute tirade against Corbyn and Labour? The fact that he was supposed to be reaching out for their support on Brexit and not starting his Tory leadership campaign is a mere detail. Enlightened self-interest and all that.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    I Interrailed as a lad. One of the best experiences of my life. This is terrible news:

    https://twitter.com/seatsixtyone/status/1159029657347534848
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    FF43 said:

    nichomar said:

    Anorak said:
    And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...
    An interesting point though is that we are the largest Mozzarella producer in the EU, most of it in Wales.
    What tariffs will be imposed on mozzarella cheese does any one actually know without looking it up?
    Approximately 60% tariff. The Welsh mozzarella will be unexportable under No Deal.

    https://ahdb.org.uk/eu-and-uk-import-tariff-rates-for-selected-dairy-products
    To be fair, I doubt it is exported.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    stodge said:

    Scott_P said:

    But we will "run out" in those few places. And as we have seen that can easily lead to civil unrest.

    When KFC ran out of chicken, there was plenty of chicken available at other outlets, and people still freaked out. When none of your local shops have milk for a day, it will be headline news

    I'm sure the Government, Police and Councils are well aware of that and it is a real concern. The primary responsibilities of any Government include the administration of law and the distribution of food. As 2011 showed, unrest can be perpetuated and disseminated via social media and that concerns me as well.

    It's as much about a change to "the normal" and how people react. As you say, the KFC episode showed how alarmingly brittle we are as a society predicated to consumption and the easy availability of things to consume. Take those away and, as you say, some people "will freak out".

    I'd like to think contingency plans, including stockpiling, will sure adequate continued provision to the vulnerable.
    How did KFC show how "alarming brittle" we are as a society?

    There were some angry tweets and silly newspaper articles. For 99.99% of people life went on as normal.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    .

    Pulpstar said:

    Brom said:

    Interesting replies to Mr Herdson's tweet:

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1158993085818384385?s=20

    In fairness I think it shows less abuse than we routinely see on the left under similar circumstances.

    My *favourite* reply and David's awesome reply

    https://twitter.com/Victori88961978/status/1159002537615343616
    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1159004695706423297
    The classic everyone who voted for Brexit must be Russian. Bit like saying everyone who voted Remain must hate Britain.
    It's an amusing pop but occam's razor strongly suggests she lives in southwest Sheffield given the rest of her twitter feed.
    She wishes she lives in South West Sheffield.
    https://twitter.com/Victori88961978/status/1149941464228671488
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401

    Pulpstar said:



    Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think.
    Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think. I do not expect the Labour leadership to be flexible on this.

    My Labour LIst article proposing a way through on this is now up:

    https://labourlist.org/2019/08/how-labour-can-stop-no-deal/
    Thanks Nick.

    I don't think even Tory Remainers would want to see Jezza get into No.10 and be the incumbent PM at the GE if they can avoid it. A GONU with an elder states(wo)man PM for a few weeks would be more acceptable across the house.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084

    I Interrailed as a lad. One of the best experiences of my life. This is terrible news:

    https://twitter.com/seatsixtyone/status/1159029657347534848

    A mistake and a tragedy for many travellers, British and european
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Imagine an orthopaedic shoe stamping on a human face - forever.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401

    I Interrailed as a lad. One of the best experiences of my life. This is terrible news:

    https://twitter.com/seatsixtyone/status/1159029657347534848

    Won't impact British Interrailers. Can still travel all over Europe.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Anorak said:

    A short but interesting distraction from Brexit: Changes in tobacco use, unknown risks, and rising tobacco consumption amongst teens.
    https://members.tortoisemedia.com/2019/08/07/smokescreen/content.html

    Also: when did "heated tobacco" become a thing?

    Heat not burn - it's the Phillip Morris strategy for slowing down the rate at which they kill their customers.

    Very big in Japan with the iQOS brand
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    I Interrailed as a lad. One of the best experiences of my life. This is terrible news:

    https://twitter.com/seatsixtyone/status/1159029657347534848

    Won't impact British Interrailers. Can still travel all over Europe.
    Is this the final straw for @Sunil_Prasannan though?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545

    FF43 said:

    nichomar said:

    Anorak said:
    And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...
    An interesting point though is that we are the largest Mozzarella producer in the EU, most of it in Wales.
    What tariffs will be imposed on mozzarella cheese does any one actually know without looking it up?
    Approximately 60% tariff. The Welsh mozzarella will be unexportable under No Deal.

    https://ahdb.org.uk/eu-and-uk-import-tariff-rates-for-selected-dairy-products
    To be fair, I doubt it is exported.
    This is the stuff you learn with Google. The Welsh mozzarella business is owned by an Irish company. A lot of the mozzarella is exported and so the company is shifting production to Ireland to mitigate Brexit.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084

    Brom said:

    Interesting replies to Mr Herdson's tweet:

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1158993085818384385?s=20

    In fairness I think it shows less abuse than we routinely see on the left under similar circumstances.

    My *favourite* reply and David's awesome reply

    https://twitter.com/Victori88961978/status/1159002537615343616
    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1159004695706423297
    The classic everyone who voted for Brexit must be Russian. Bit like saying everyone who voted Remain must hate Britain.
    Look at the account, dunno if it's russian but it's definitely somebody's information ops as opposed to a normal human.
    Why do these accounts give the game away with some long serial number after their name?
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547
    edited August 2019



    They'd be able to console themselves that Corbyn wouldn't be able to actually enact any damaging legislation without a majority, so a GNU led by Corbyn wouldn't necessarily concern them policy wise.
    Thing is, I think concerns about Corbyn go beyond the fact they think his economic policies are bonkers. Many, even within his own party, think that Corbyn is a genuinely evil human being, and that letting him become PM would be a moral stain upon this country. Letting Corbyn become PM is wrong in itself.
    Personally, I'd choose a minority Corbyn government over No Deal, but I'm not completely sure that Lee, Letwin, Gauke etc... feel the same way, even while knowing No Deal would be a disaster.

    Corbyn is many things - misguided, stubborn, inflexible, naive, incompetent, unsuited to the role of leadership, but he is not evil. His political positions are founded on genuine belief, opportunism does not come into it, which is perhaps, one of the reasons why his opponents find him hard to understand. There are few MPs less suited to the role of PM than Corbyn, but most of them are in the Cabinet and one of the is the current occupant of Downing Street. Compared to him Corbyn, though very far from perfect, would be an improvement.
  • Pulpstar said:

    .

    Pulpstar said:

    Brom said:

    Interesting replies to Mr Herdson's tweet:

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1158993085818384385?s=20

    In fairness I think it shows less abuse than we routinely see on the left under similar circumstances.

    My *favourite* reply and David's awesome reply

    https://twitter.com/Victori88961978/status/1159002537615343616
    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1159004695706423297
    The classic everyone who voted for Brexit must be Russian. Bit like saying everyone who voted Remain must hate Britain.
    It's an amusing pop but occam's razor strongly suggests she lives in southwest Sheffield given the rest of her twitter feed.
    She wishes she lives in South West Sheffield.
    https://twitter.com/Victori88961978/status/1149941464228671488
    That's Sheffield Heeley, she's a Southerner, not a SouthWesterner.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    nichomar said:

    Anorak said:
    And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...
    An interesting point though is that we are the largest Mozzarella producer in the EU, most of it in Wales.
    What tariffs will be imposed on mozzarella cheese does any one actually know without looking it up?
    Approximately 60% tariff. The Welsh mozzarella will be unexportable under No Deal.

    https://ahdb.org.uk/eu-and-uk-import-tariff-rates-for-selected-dairy-products
    To be fair, I doubt it is exported.
    This is the stuff you learn with Google. The Welsh mozzarella business is owned by an Irish company. A lot of the mozzarella is exported and so the company is shifting production to Ireland to mitigate Brexit.
    And then they'll export it to mainland europe via Holyhead?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    edited August 2019
    Richard Leonard had a full frank exchange of views with John McDonnell. Now looking to see what the old fool has to add.

    https://twitter.com/andrewlearmonth/status/1159048777149374464
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084

    IanB2 said:

    I do wonder what the consequences of a VoNC would be with the electorate. As we know with the McMao and RLB comments a GoNU is now not an option, that means in reality a GE. This GE could take place a short time before the 31st Oct.

    Is it really sensible for our politicians to go to the electorate just days before? The electorate could view them all as irresponsible and produce a very strange result, with the exception if Scotland.

    The Shadow Cabinet have to say that Jezza is the only alternative PM they would countenance. It would be a bit odd for them to be advocating Starmer or Swinson at this hypothetical juncture. However, when we reach make-or-break time, it won't be the front benches that decide, just a majority of the house. Bozo and Jezza will be impotent in the face of a democratic desire to halt No Deal.
    But they have to say that now,don't they? If they said "we want Corbyn but we would also back Clarke, Vince or whoever", Corbyn would never get a look in to begin with.
    What does the GoNU do on its second day, immediately after stopping Brexit? Unless it calls a general election, all Labour will have done is get Boris out of the hole he is digging. The time for this sort of kitchen coup was under Theresa May when the Cabinet could have ousted her (and landed my bet on Hammond) yet continued as a Conservative government.
    Day 1: stop Brexit
    Day 2: change the voting system to STV
    Day 3: call the election

    That'll show 'em
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    nichomar said:

    Anorak said:
    And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...
    An interesting point though is that we are the largest Mozzarella producer in the EU, most of it in Wales.
    What tariffs will be imposed on mozzarella cheese does any one actually know without looking it up?
    Approximately 60% tariff. The Welsh mozzarella will be unexportable under No Deal.

    https://ahdb.org.uk/eu-and-uk-import-tariff-rates-for-selected-dairy-products
    To be fair, I doubt it is exported.
    This is the stuff you learn with Google. The Welsh mozzarella business is owned by an Irish company. A lot of the mozzarella is exported and so the company is shifting production to Ireland to mitigate Brexit.
    And then they'll export it to mainland europe via Holyhead?
    I assume that's the intention. The UK would be in serious breach of WTO rules if it attempted to impede transit.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    Charles said:

    stodge said:

    Scott_P said:

    But we will "run out" in those few places. And as we have seen that can easily lead to civil unrest.

    When KFC ran out of chicken, there was plenty of chicken available at other outlets, and people still freaked out. When none of your local shops have milk for a day, it will be headline news

    I'm sure the Government, Police and Councils are well aware of that and it is a real concern. The primary responsibilities of any Government include the administration of law and the distribution of food. As 2011 showed, unrest can be perpetuated and disseminated via social media and that concerns me as well.

    It's as much about a change to "the normal" and how people react. As you say, the KFC episode showed how alarmingly brittle we are as a society predicated to consumption and the easy availability of things to consume. Take those away and, as you say, some people "will freak out".

    I'd like to think contingency plans, including stockpiling, will sure adequate continued provision to the vulnerable.
    How did KFC show how "alarming brittle" we are as a society?

    There were some angry tweets and silly newspaper articles. For 99.99% of people life went on as normal.
    I can't say I noticed anything.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Pulpstar said:

    .

    Pulpstar said:

    Brom said:

    Interesting replies to Mr Herdson's tweet:

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1158993085818384385?s=20

    In fairness I think it shows less abuse than we routinely see on the left under similar circumstances.

    My *favourite* reply and David's awesome reply

    https://twitter.com/Victori88961978/status/1159002537615343616
    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1159004695706423297
    The classic everyone who voted for Brexit must be Russian. Bit like saying everyone who voted Remain must hate Britain.
    It's an amusing pop but occam's razor strongly suggests she lives in southwest Sheffield given the rest of her twitter feed.
    She wishes she lives in South West Sheffield.
    https://twitter.com/Victori88961978/status/1149941464228671488
    That's Sheffield Heeley, she's a Southerner, not a SouthWesterner.
    Do you view Abbeydale Road as a sort of Berlin Wall ?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136


    I don't think even Tory Remainers would want to see Jezza get into No.10 and be the incumbent PM at the GE if they can avoid it. A GONU with an elder states(wo)man PM for a few weeks would be more acceptable across the house.

    I think it depends how many Con defectors there are. The problem with the non-Corbyn elder statesman approach is that Lab leavers won't necessarily feel compelled to vote for them in the same way that they would their own leader. If you've got Tory MPs deserting the Tory party in the same proportion as pb posters then the path of least resistance is probably to go with a grandee, but if it's literally 2 guys then it's probably better to tell everybody it's Corbyn so suck it up, he totally promises not to nationalize anything until after the election.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    When was the third WA vote? I thought it was after the March deadline.

    That was when they pushed it too far.

    Do you know what the score is on the medical radioactive isotopes used for cancer patients in the event of No Deal?

    Have a friend whose father has been diagnosed with cancer and he's seen reports that cancer patients might suffer in the event of No Deal due the difficulty in importing the required stuff?
    Not well enough to comment in detail, especially when it's that important to someone.

    But a few years ago Alliance Medical was investing heavily in cyclotrons that could create isotopes in hospitals. Don't know where they ended up with that.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812


    I don't think even Tory Remainers would want to see Jezza get into No.10 and be the incumbent PM at the GE if they can avoid it. A GONU with an elder states(wo)man PM for a few weeks would be more acceptable across the house.

    I think it depends how many Con defectors there are. The problem with the non-Corbyn elder statesman approach is that Lab leavers won't necessarily feel compelled to vote for them in the same way that they would their own leader. If you've got Tory MPs deserting the Tory party in the same proportion as pb posters then the path of least resistance is probably to go with a grandee, but if it's literally 2 guys then it's probably better to tell everybody it's Corbyn so suck it up, he totally promises not to nationalize anything until after the election.
    E-i-T, what do you think the chances of a VONC in the first place?
  • Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    .

    Pulpstar said:

    Brom said:

    Interesting replies to Mr Herdson's tweet:

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1158993085818384385?s=20

    In fairness I think it shows less abuse than we routinely see on the left under similar circumstances.

    My *favourite* reply and David's awesome reply

    https://twitter.com/Victori88961978/status/1159002537615343616
    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1159004695706423297
    The classic everyone who voted for Brexit must be Russian. Bit like saying everyone who voted Remain must hate Britain.
    It's an amusing pop but occam's razor strongly suggests she lives in southwest Sheffield given the rest of her twitter feed.
    She wishes she lives in South West Sheffield.
    https://twitter.com/Victori88961978/status/1149941464228671488
    That's Sheffield Heeley, she's a Southerner, not a SouthWesterner.
    Do you view Abbeydale Road as a sort of Berlin Wall ?
    Kinda, is where the things from another tax bracket reside.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084

    I Interrailed as a lad. One of the best experiences of my life. This is terrible news:

    https://twitter.com/seatsixtyone/status/1159029657347534848

    Won't impact British Interrailers. Can still travel all over Europe.
    Given that the best value passes run for odd numbered travelling days it is handy to use the odd day to cover the leg returning home in the UK, though. I have done this two years running.

    More fundamentally, interrail will close to UK residents and we'll presumably have to buy a Eurail pass like the Americans
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    When was the third WA vote? I thought it was after the March deadline.

    That was when they pushed it too far.

    Do you know what the score is on the medical radioactive isotopes used for cancer patients in the event of No Deal?

    Have a friend whose father has been diagnosed with cancer and he's seen reports that cancer patients might suffer in the event of No Deal due the difficulty in importing the required stuff?
    Not well enough to comment in detail, especially when it's that important to someone.

    But a few years ago Alliance Medical was investing heavily in cyclotrons that could create isotopes in hospitals. Don't know where they ended up with that.
    Thanks, I asked my father and few of his former colleagues, and it is a bloody mess, the trusts say they cannot say anything, and the consultants say their hands might be tied in the event of no deal rationing on this front.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,912

    Imagine an orthopaedic shoe stamping on a human face - forever.
    I am quite sure there are some Leave supporters who are neither swivel eyed fanatics nor slow witted OAPs but they don't post on here or get interviewed.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547

    Pulpstar said:



    Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think.
    Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think. I do not expect the Labour leadership to be flexible on this.

    My Labour LIst article proposing a way through on this is now up:

    https://labourlist.org/2019/08/how-labour-can-stop-no-deal/
    Thanks Nick.

    I don't think even Tory Remainers would want to see Jezza get into No.10 and be the incumbent PM at the GE if they can avoid it. A GONU with an elder states(wo)man PM for a few weeks would be more acceptable across the house.
    Possibly though I think in extremis the Tory rebels would accept a Corbyn minority government if it was the only way to stop no deal.

    So after Johnson loses his VONC he could find himself in the position of either eating his words and seeking an extension or going down in history as the man who ushered in a Corbyn premiership.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545

    Charles said:

    When was the third WA vote? I thought it was after the March deadline.

    That was when they pushed it too far.

    Do you know what the score is on the medical radioactive isotopes used for cancer patients in the event of No Deal?

    Have a friend whose father has been diagnosed with cancer and he's seen reports that cancer patients might suffer in the event of No Deal due the difficulty in importing the required stuff?
    My understanding is that the UK is part of the prioritisation scheme for those isotopes. Whenever they are in short supply the isotopes are distributed according to priority of need. Outside the system we would have access to the isotopes but priority would go to scheme members first
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,912
    When I pointed this out on here the other day I was told that the billionaires shorting UK assets while bankrolling Brexit were all doing out of a benign sense of noblesse oblige. Shurely Shome Mistake?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    nichomar said:

    Anorak said:
    And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...
    An interesting point though is that we are the largest Mozzarella producer in the EU, most of it in Wales.
    What tariffs will be imposed on mozzarella cheese does any one actually know without looking it up?
    Approximately 60% tariff. The Welsh mozzarella will be unexportable under No Deal.

    https://ahdb.org.uk/eu-and-uk-import-tariff-rates-for-selected-dairy-products
    To be fair, I doubt it is exported.
    This is the stuff you learn with Google. The Welsh mozzarella business is owned by an Irish company. A lot of the mozzarella is exported and so the company is shifting production to Ireland to mitigate Brexit.
    And then they'll export it to mainland europe via Holyhead?
    I assume that's the intention. The UK would be in serious breach of WTO rules if it attempted to impede transit.
    The fundamental point was really about how little we know about tariffs and their impact. Johnson got away with answering questions by spouting GATT 24 and although this was discredited there was no follow on the implications of WTO. The majority of people haven’t got a clue so how can they support no deal?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:

    Scott_P said:

    But we will "run out" in those few places. And as we have seen that can easily lead to civil unrest.

    When KFC ran out of chicken, there was plenty of chicken available at other outlets, and people still freaked out. When none of your local shops have milk for a day, it will be headline news

    I'm sure the Government, Police and Councils are well aware of that and it is a real concern. The primary responsibilities of any Government include the administration of law and the distribution of food. As 2011 showed, unrest can be perpetuated and disseminated via social media and that concerns me as well.

    It's as much about a change to "the normal" and how people react. As you say, the KFC episode showed how alarmingly brittle we are as a society predicated to consumption and the easy availability of things to consume. Take those away and, as you say, some people "will freak out".

    I'd like to think contingency plans, including stockpiling, will sure adequate continued provision to the vulnerable.
    How did KFC show how "alarming brittle" we are as a society?

    There were some angry tweets and silly newspaper articles. For 99.99% of people life went on as normal.
    I can't say I noticed anything.
    No I daresay you didn't. But you know, out there, there are plenty of people not as lucky/hardworking as you for whom the essentials as they see them, things that you wouldn't trouble yourself about, really do matter.

    Ghastly, I know but what can one do?
  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    I do wonder what the consequences of a VoNC would be with the electorate. As we know with the McMao and RLB comments a GoNU is now not an option, that means in reality a GE. This GE could take place a short time before the 31st Oct.

    Is it really sensible for our politicians to go to the electorate just days before? The electorate could view them all as irresponsible and produce a very strange result, with the exception if Scotland.

    The Shadow Cabinet have to say that Jezza is the only alternative PM they would countenance. It would be a bit odd for them to be advocating Starmer or Swinson at this hypothetical juncture. However, when we reach make-or-break time, it won't be the front benches that decide, just a majority of the house. Bozo and Jezza will be impotent in the face of a democratic desire to halt No Deal.
    But they have to say that now,don't they? If they said "we want Corbyn but we would also back Clarke, Vince or whoever", Corbyn would never get a look in to begin with.
    What does the GoNU do on its second day, immediately after stopping Brexit? Unless it calls a general election, all Labour will have done is get Boris out of the hole he is digging. The time for this sort of kitchen coup was under Theresa May when the Cabinet could have ousted her (and landed my bet on Hammond) yet continued as a Conservative government.
    Day 1: stop Brexit
    Day 2: change the voting system to STV
    Day 3: call the election

    That'll show 'em
    Your problem there is with STV and the current polling you are almost guaranteed a Leave majority in Parliament. All the more so if you have just stopped Brexit. Be careful what you wish for.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:

    Scott_P said:

    But we will "run out" in those few places. And as we have seen that can easily lead to civil unrest.

    When KFC ran out of chicken, there was plenty of chicken available at other outlets, and people still freaked out. When none of your local shops have milk for a day, it will be headline news

    I'm sure the Government, Police and Councils are well aware of that and it is a real concern. The primary responsibilities of any Government include the administration of law and the distribution of food. As 2011 showed, unrest can be perpetuated and disseminated via social media and that concerns me as well.

    It's as much about a change to "the normal" and how people react. As you say, the KFC episode showed how alarmingly brittle we are as a society predicated to consumption and the easy availability of things to consume. Take those away and, as you say, some people "will freak out".

    I'd like to think contingency plans, including stockpiling, will sure adequate continued provision to the vulnerable.
    How did KFC show how "alarming brittle" we are as a society?

    There were some angry tweets and silly newspaper articles. For 99.99% of people life went on as normal.
    I can't say I noticed anything.
    No I daresay you didn't. But you know, out there, there are plenty of people not as lucky/hardworking as you for whom the essentials as they see them, things that you wouldn't trouble yourself about, really do matter.

    Ghastly, I know but what can one do?
    I'm not convinced that KFC counts as "essentials."
  • FF43 said:

    Charles said:

    When was the third WA vote? I thought it was after the March deadline.

    That was when they pushed it too far.

    Do you know what the score is on the medical radioactive isotopes used for cancer patients in the event of No Deal?

    Have a friend whose father has been diagnosed with cancer and he's seen reports that cancer patients might suffer in the event of No Deal due the difficulty in importing the required stuff?
    My understanding is that the UK is part of the prioritisation scheme for those isotopes. Whenever they are in short supply the isotopes are distributed according to priority of need. Outside the system we would have access to the isotopes but priority would go to scheme members first
    Thanks.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,395
    malcolmg said:

    kjh said:

    malcolmg said:

    FF43 said:

    TGOHF said:

    A whole header of virtue signalling.

    How very 2019.

    What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge
    "Virtue signalling" is a lazy term that aims to delegitimise principle.

    Devastating critique of the Party from a conservative point of view. The Lib Dems are the clear conservative option these days, curiously, including keeping the United Kingdom intact.
    If you think the Lib Dems are the answer then the UK is truly F****D and deluded to boot.
    Hi Malc.

    As a LD in Surrey, whose only connection to Scotland is 4 visits and a Scottish wife whose entire family have defected to the South and East of England I would appreciate some feedback on the relationship between the LDs and SNP.

    From my point of view (having no local knowledge) I feel there should be very little difference. Both are socially liberal and have similar economic views. The LDs believe in the EU and as much devolution as possible and the SNP believe in Independence within the EU. The difference between those two positions appears to be a dance on a pin head.

    So what is it? From my point of view (if we are both in the EU) I have no issue with Independence.
    Hello, Their Scottish leader never ever stops banging on about how their should not be any chance of any further devolution / independence. Their "NEW" leader at Westminster's first sentence was to utter "I will not allow another independence referendum". So you can take from that , the Scottish party and the Scottish Westminster leader are neither Liberal or Democratic.
    Hard to see them going anywhere in Scotland with those views. Rennie the Scottish leader is just rubbish and my expectations of the whining Swinson is that she will be no better, she is a real right wing Tory at heart.
    They do not seem to care what the public think , only their own entrenched views and seem to dislike democracy.
    PS you may see different views in England but dire up here for sure and going nowhere.
    I thnink Malc is mistaken. Rennie may appear a bit goofy but is liked and and Swinson easily won back her seat from the SNP. A Scotlibdem revival may hurt SCon in a snap GE but, more significantly, may deprive Nicloa of a pro-indy majority in 2021 by attracting centrist middle-class voters in suburban Scotland.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Anorak said:
    And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...
    An interesting point though is that we are the largest Mozzarella producer in the EU, most of it in Wales.
    Whatever is produced in the UK is not mozzarella.

    Mozzarella is made from the milk from buffalo herds in the fields around Paestum and Salerno.

    Let's have some standards, please.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084

    Pulpstar said:



    Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think.
    Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think. I do not expect the Labour leadership to be flexible on this.

    My Labour LIst article proposing a way through on this is now up:

    https://labourlist.org/2019/08/how-labour-can-stop-no-deal/
    A longer version of what I posted on here yesterday.

    I note the contradiction between the opening commitment to national interest before party, followed by ruling out any options that don't suit Labour and evaluating the suggestion on the basis of party political benefit.

    Is Labour the only party whose discussion site bans any comment below the line?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    .

    Pulpstar said:

    Brom said:

    Interesting replies to Mr Herdson's tweet:

    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1158993085818384385?s=20

    In fairness I think it shows less abuse than we routinely see on the left under similar circumstances.

    My *favourite* reply and David's awesome reply

    https://twitter.com/Victori88961978/status/1159002537615343616
    https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1159004695706423297
    The classic everyone who voted for Brexit must be Russian. Bit like saying everyone who voted Remain must hate Britain.
    It's an amusing pop but occam's razor strongly suggests she lives in southwest Sheffield given the rest of her twitter feed.
    She wishes she lives in South West Sheffield.
    https://twitter.com/Victori88961978/status/1149941464228671488
    That's Sheffield Heeley, she's a Southerner, not a SouthWesterner.
    Do you view Abbeydale Road as a sort of Berlin Wall ?
    Kinda, is where the things from another tax bracket reside.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBrwZTJU4Nk
  • Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176
    As we map out previously unthinkable scenarios, what about the Scottish Con & Unionist Party formally splitting from the national UK Tories and merging with the Scottish LDs to form the Scottish Liberal Unionists, led by Davidson and pursuing sensible centrist pro Union policies?

    Can Ruth as leader of the Scots Tories do that (if her members support her)? Could Boris stop her?

    Would mean Davidson and her Scottish Tories could openly campaign for a second referendum given the large Scottish support for Remain - all in the mutual Scottish Tory and Scottish LD interest of preserving the Union and keeping Scotland (and Britain) in the EU?

    Surely Scottish Tory and LD MPs would hold their Westminster seats under such an arrangement, as the only mainstream pro Union party, and possibly take some off the SNP or Labour. I can't imagine a rump UK Tory party imposing candidates would do very well, or damage SLUP chances too terribly?

    I should say I know v little of the Brexit views of current Scots Tory MPs. I assume the new SoS for Scotland is pro Brexit or he wouldn't be in the govt, but beyond that...

    I guess a big question would be with whom they align in Westminster - I guess they could give broad confidence and supply support to whichever of the Tories or Labour wins more seats in Westminster and decide what legislation they would back on a policy by policy basis.

    Am I away with the fairies....?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084
    Cyclefree said:

    Anorak said:
    And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...
    An interesting point though is that we are the largest Mozzarella producer in the EU, most of it in Wales.
    Whatever is produced in the UK is not mozzarella.

    Mozzarella is made from the milk from buffalo herds in the fields around Paestum and Salerno.

    Let's have some standards, please.
    Isn't that a special denominated type of Mozzarella?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    Cyclefree said:

    Anorak said:
    And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...
    An interesting point though is that we are the largest Mozzarella producer in the EU, most of it in Wales.
    Whatever is produced in the UK is not mozzarella.

    Mozzarella is made from the milk from buffalo herds in the fields around Paestum and Salerno.

    Let's have some standards, please.
    Welsh Mozarella sounds like an abomination.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,084

    As we map out previously unthinkable scenarios, what about the Scottish Con & Unionist Party formally splitting from the national UK Tories and merging with the Scottish LDs to form the Scottish Liberal Unionists, led by Davidson and pursuing sensible centrist pro Union policies?

    Can Ruth as leader of the Scots Tories do that (if her members support her)? Could Boris stop her?

    Would mean Davidson and her Scottish Tories could openly campaign for a second referendum given the large Scottish support for Remain - all in the mutual Scottish Tory and Scottish LD interest of preserving the Union and keeping Scotland (and Britain) in the EU?

    Surely Scottish Tory and LD MPs would hold their Westminster seats under such an arrangement, as the only mainstream pro Union party, and possibly take some off the SNP or Labour. I can't imagine a rump UK Tory party imposing candidates would do very well, or damage SLUP chances too terribly?

    I should say I know v little of the Brexit views of current Scots Tory MPs. I assume the new SoS for Scotland is pro Brexit or he wouldn't be in the govt, but beyond that...

    I guess a big question would be with whom they align in Westminster - I guess they could give broad confidence and supply support to whichever of the Tories or Labour wins more seats in Westminster and decide what legislation they would back on a policy by policy basis.

    Am I away with the fairies....?

    Yes

    And you don't even know that the SOS doesnt have a Scottish seat!
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,861
    edited August 2019



    I think failure is now understood (maybe not by Sean F) but is actively lusted after all the more intensely.

    There’s probably a long German word for this.

    Todeswunsch is actually quite snappy.
    Show off :-) The english translation "Death Wish" is just as good.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anorak said:
    And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...
    An interesting point though is that we are the largest Mozzarella producer in the EU, most of it in Wales.
    Whatever is produced in the UK is not mozzarella.

    Mozzarella is made from the milk from buffalo herds in the fields around Paestum and Salerno.

    Let's have some standards, please.
    Welsh Mozarella sounds like an abomination.
    We're also the world's largest manufacturer of chicken tikka massala
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anorak said:
    And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...
    An interesting point though is that we are the largest Mozzarella producer in the EU, most of it in Wales.
    Whatever is produced in the UK is not mozzarella.

    Mozzarella is made from the milk from buffalo herds in the fields around Paestum and Salerno.

    Let's have some standards, please.
    Welsh Mozarella sounds like an abomination.
    you could try


    https://www.laverstokepark.co.uk/
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:

    Scott_P said:

    But we will "run out" in those few places. And as we have seen that can easily lead to civil unrest.

    When KFC ran out of chicken, there was plenty of chicken available at other outlets, and people still freaked out. When none of your local shops have milk for a day, it will be headline news

    I'm sure the Government, Police and Councils are well aware of that and it is a real concern. The primary responsibilities of any Government include the administration of law and the distribution of food. As 2011 showed, unrest can be perpetuated and disseminated via social media and that concerns me as well.

    It's as much about a change to "the normal" and how people react. As you say, the KFC episode showed how alarmingly brittle we are as a society predicated to consumption and the easy availability of things to consume. Take those away and, as you say, some people "will freak out".

    I'd like to think contingency plans, including stockpiling, will sure adequate continued provision to the vulnerable.
    How did KFC show how "alarming brittle" we are as a society?

    There were some angry tweets and silly newspaper articles. For 99.99% of people life went on as normal.
    I can't say I noticed anything.
    No I daresay you didn't. But you know, out there, there are plenty of people not as lucky/hardworking as you for whom the essentials as they see them, things that you wouldn't trouble yourself about, really do matter.

    Ghastly, I know but what can one do?
    I'm not convinced that KFC counts as "essentials."
    That is my point. I'm sure that missing Granizado salado de tomate con orégano fresco y manjar blanco would be dreadful for you but not for many people ... *points* ... OUT THERE.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited August 2019
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    nichomar said:

    Anorak said:
    And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...
    An interesting point though is that we are the largest Mozzarella producer in the EU, most of it in Wales.
    What tariffs will be imposed on mozzarella cheese does any one actually know without looking it up?
    Approximately 60% tariff. The Welsh mozzarella will be unexportable under No Deal.

    https://ahdb.org.uk/eu-and-uk-import-tariff-rates-for-selected-dairy-products
    To be fair, I doubt it is exported.
    This is the stuff you learn with Google. The Welsh mozzarella business is owned by an Irish company. A lot of the mozzarella is exported and so the company is shifting production to Ireland to mitigate Brexit.
    And then they'll export it to mainland europe via Holyhead?
    I assume that's the intention. The UK would be in serious breach of WTO rules if it attempted to impede transit.
    Wait a minute. So all of TGOHF's tedious mewling about smelly Irish trucks polluting our green and pleasant land, which would be stopped under Brexit, is meaningless? It will continue regardless?

    And in this case it will increase!?

    Fuck me, that's funny.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    As we map out previously unthinkable scenarios, what about the Scottish Con & Unionist Party formally splitting from the national UK Tories and merging with the Scottish LDs to form the Scottish Liberal Unionists, led by Davidson and pursuing sensible centrist pro Union policies?

    Can Ruth as leader of the Scots Tories do that (if her members support her)? Could Boris stop her?

    Would mean Davidson and her Scottish Tories could openly campaign for a second referendum given the large Scottish support for Remain - all in the mutual Scottish Tory and Scottish LD interest of preserving the Union and keeping Scotland (and Britain) in the EU?

    Surely Scottish Tory and LD MPs would hold their Westminster seats under such an arrangement, as the only mainstream pro Union party, and possibly take some off the SNP or Labour. I can't imagine a rump UK Tory party imposing candidates would do very well, or damage SLUP chances too terribly?

    I should say I know v little of the Brexit views of current Scots Tory MPs. I assume the new SoS for Scotland is pro Brexit or he wouldn't be in the govt, but beyond that...

    I guess a big question would be with whom they align in Westminster - I guess they could give broad confidence and supply support to whichever of the Tories or Labour wins more seats in Westminster and decide what legislation they would back on a policy by policy basis.

    Am I away with the fairies....?

    To a large extent, that was the position pre 1965, although they took the Conservative whip at Westminster.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,861

    Pulpstar said:



    Bebb, Lee and Grieve have to be prepared to put Corbyn in power in my opinion for No deal to be avoided I think.
    Bailey was clear Labour won't want anyone other than Corbyn being the alternate PM to Johnson last night I think. I do not expect the Labour leadership to be flexible on this.

    My Labour LIst article proposing a way through on this is now up:

    https://labourlist.org/2019/08/how-labour-can-stop-no-deal/
    I'm in favour of this proposal. Shame we have to wait until parliament returns.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:

    Scott_P said:

    But we will "run out" in those few places. And as we have seen that can easily lead to civil unrest.

    When KFC ran out of chicken, there was plenty of chicken available at other outlets, and people still freaked out. When none of your local shops have milk for a day, it will be headline news

    I'm sure the Government, Police and Councils are well aware of that and it is a real concern. The primary responsibilities of any Government include the administration of law and the distribution of food. As 2011 showed, unrest can be perpetuated and disseminated via social media and that concerns me as well.

    It's as much about a change to "the normal" and how people react. As you say, the KFC episode showed how alarmingly brittle we are as a society predicated to consumption and the easy availability of things to consume. Take those away and, as you say, some people "will freak out".

    I'd like to think contingency plans, including stockpiling, will sure adequate continued provision to the vulnerable.
    How did KFC show how "alarming brittle" we are as a society?

    There were some angry tweets and silly newspaper articles. For 99.99% of people life went on as normal.
    I can't say I noticed anything.
    No I daresay you didn't. But you know, out there, there are plenty of people not as lucky/hardworking as you for whom the essentials as they see them, things that you wouldn't trouble yourself about, really do matter.

    Ghastly, I know but what can one do?
    I'm not convinced that KFC counts as "essentials."
    That is my point. I'm sure that missing Granizado salado de tomate con orégano fresco y manjar blanco would be dreadful for you but not for many people ... *points* ... OUT THERE.
    I doubt if I've ever eaten that.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,458
    malcolmg said:

    kjh said:

    malcolmg said:

    FF43 said:

    TGOHF said:

    A whole header of virtue signalling.

    How very 2019.

    What actually do you mean by the term virtue signalling? This is just a way of dismissing something uncomfortable that you don't want to acknowledge
    "Virtue signalling" is a lazy term that aims to delegitimise principle.

    Devastating critique of the Party from a conservative point of view. The Lib Dems are the clear conservative option these days, curiously, including keeping the United Kingdom intact.
    If you think the Lib Dems are the answer then the UK is truly F****D and deluded to boot.
    Hi Malc.

    As a LD in Surrey, whose only connection to Scotland is 4 visits and a Scottish wife whose entire family have defected to the South and East of England I would appreciate some feedback on the relationship between the LDs and SNP.

    From my point of view (having no local knowledge) I feel there should be very little difference. Both are socially liberal and have similar economic views. The LDs believe in the EU and as much devolution as possible and the SNP believe in Independence within the EU. The difference between those two positions appears to be a dance on a pin head.

    So what is it? From my point of view (if we are both in the EU) I have no issue with Independence.
    Hello, Their Scottish leader never ever stops banging on about how their should not be any chance of any further devolution / independence. Their "NEW" leader at Westminster's first sentence was to utter "I will not allow another independence referendum". So you can take from that , the Scottish party and the Scottish Westminster leader are neither Liberal or Democratic.
    Hard to see them going anywhere in Scotland with those views. Rennie the Scottish leader is just rubbish and my expectations of the whining Swinson is that she will be no better, she is a real right wing Tory at heart.
    They do not seem to care what the public think , only their own entrenched views and seem to dislike democracy.
    PS you may see different views in England but dire up here for sure and going nowhere.
    Thanks for that Malcolm.

    I was disappointed to hear Jo Swinson's comments on a further referendum myself, not because I have an opinion either way, but if you want one you should have one and it reflected badly on the Brexit 2nd referendum campaign.

    I don't know enough about Rennie, but I'm surprised by the comment on no more devolution. As a LD maximum practical devolution should be in the blood.

    However would I be right in assuming the differences pre-date these two by some considerable time.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Cyclefree said:

    Anorak said:
    And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...
    An interesting point though is that we are the largest Mozzarella producer in the EU, most of it in Wales.
    Whatever is produced in the UK is not mozzarella.

    Mozzarella is made from the milk from buffalo herds in the fields around Paestum and Salerno.

    Let's have some standards, please.
    Cyclefree said:

    Anorak said:
    And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...
    An interesting point though is that we are the largest Mozzarella producer in the EU, most of it in Wales.
    Whatever is produced in the UK is not mozzarella.

    Mozzarella is made from the milk from buffalo herds in the fields around Paestum and Salerno.

    Let's have some standards, please.
    You can buy bufala made in Cornwall or Devon.
  • Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176
    I've also been having a good peruse of the Lib Dems website. It's hard for me to find much on there I passionately disagree with, being a remainer-ish one nation Tory who increasingly thinks Brexit in any form is going to harm Britain and in time destroy the Union, and being only a grudging acquiescent in FPTP which has almost always meant every GE vote I've cast in 25 years feels wasted.

    Trouble is i don't much like Swinson, or to be honest, any of the key Lib Dem figures. David Laws I liked. Clegg was bearable as Deputy PM in a one nation coalition with Cameron.

    Does "bollocks to Brexit" and a 2nd referendum trump all that?

    I do also like Boris, who is when all is said and done a fairly liberally minded Tory, and do want him to succeed. I can't support a No Deal Brexit though, or the hardliners in his party.
  • Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176
    IanB2 said:

    As we map out previously unthinkable scenarios, what about the Scottish Con & Unionist Party formally splitting from the national UK Tories and merging with the Scottish LDs to form the Scottish Liberal Unionists, led by Davidson and pursuing sensible centrist pro Union policies?

    Can Ruth as leader of the Scots Tories do that (if her members support her)? Could Boris stop her?

    Would mean Davidson and her Scottish Tories could openly campaign for a second referendum given the large Scottish support for Remain - all in the mutual Scottish Tory and Scottish LD interest of preserving the Union and keeping Scotland (and Britain) in the EU?

    Surely Scottish Tory and LD MPs would hold their Westminster seats under such an arrangement, as the only mainstream pro Union party, and possibly take some off the SNP or Labour. I can't imagine a rump UK Tory party imposing candidates would do very well, or damage SLUP chances too terribly?

    I should say I know v little of the Brexit views of current Scots Tory MPs. I assume the new SoS for Scotland is pro Brexit or he wouldn't be in the govt, but beyond that...

    I guess a big question would be with whom they align in Westminster - I guess they could give broad confidence and supply support to whichever of the Tories or Labour wins more seats in Westminster and decide what legislation they would back on a policy by policy basis.

    Am I away with the fairies....?

    Yes

    And you don't even know that the SOS doesnt have a Scottish seat!
    Er, he's MP for Dumfries isn't he?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    stodge said:

    Scott_P said:

    But we will "run out" in those few places. And as we have seen that can easily lead to civil unrest.

    When KFC ran out of chicken, there was plenty of chicken available at other outlets, and people still freaked out. When none of your local shops have milk for a day, it will be headline news

    I'm sure the Government, Police and Councils are well aware of that and it is a real concern. The primary responsibilities of any Government include the administration of law and the distribution of food. As 2011 showed, unrest can be perpetuated and disseminated via social media and that concerns me as well.

    It's as much about a change to "the normal" and how people react. As you say, the KFC episode showed how alarmingly brittle we are as a society predicated to consumption and the easy availability of things to consume. Take those away and, as you say, some people "will freak out".

    I'd like to think contingency plans, including stockpiling, will sure adequate continued provision to the vulnerable.
    How did KFC show how "alarming brittle" we are as a society?

    There were some angry tweets and silly newspaper articles. For 99.99% of people life went on as normal.
    I can't say I noticed anything.
    No I daresay you didn't. But you know, out there, there are plenty of people not as lucky/hardworking as you for whom the essentials as they see them, things that you wouldn't trouble yourself about, really do matter.

    Ghastly, I know but what can one do?
    I'm not convinced that KFC counts as "essentials."
    That is my point. I'm sure that missing Granizado salado de tomate con orégano fresco y manjar blanco would be dreadful for you but not for many people ... *points* ... OUT THERE.
    I doubt if I've ever eaten that.
    It's an EU directive on rawlplug specifications.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anorak said:
    And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...
    An interesting point though is that we are the largest Mozzarella producer in the EU, most of it in Wales.
    Whatever is produced in the UK is not mozzarella.

    Mozzarella is made from the milk from buffalo herds in the fields around Paestum and Salerno.

    Let's have some standards, please.
    Welsh Mozarella sounds like an abomination.
    you could try


    https://www.laverstokepark.co.uk/
    Bio-dynamic.

    Totally hat-stand.

    But they make black pudding and beer, so not all bad.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I've also been having a good peruse of the Lib Dems website. It's hard for me to find much on there I passionately disagree with, being a remainer-ish one nation Tory who increasingly thinks Brexit in any form is going to harm Britain and in time destroy the Union, and being only a grudging acquiescent in FPTP which has almost always meant every GE vote I've cast in 25 years feels wasted.

    Trouble is i don't much like Swinson, or to be honest, any of the key Lib Dem figures. David Laws I liked. Clegg was bearable as Deputy PM in a one nation coalition with Cameron.

    Does "bollocks to Brexit" and a 2nd referendum trump all that?

    I do also like Boris, who is when all is said and done a fairly liberally minded Tory, and do want him to succeed. I can't support a No Deal Brexit though, or the hardliners in his party.

    The issue I have with the Lib Dems is that although what they say is superficially appealing (apart from the whole rejecting democracy thing) is that my instinct is their gut reaction is to spend and regulate as a reaction to any problem.

    Ideal for me would be a party which understood that "more government/money" is not always the right answer!

    I'm not sure one exists...
  • Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    So we see these new members who are now joining being regarded as entryists when many of them are probably former Tory members who are now rejoining after having left in disgust at the domination of the party by Europhiles.

    This is why I have no sympathy for people like David and Richard. They have long disregarded the views of other party members secure in the knowledge that the party leadership was on their side. Now they find that has changed and they should be starting to understand how all those other members who left before them felt. I doubt they will, as this thread header and David's tweets show.

    For decades, Labour and Tories were "broad church" parties, who accommodated the headbangers at both ends. At no point did they feel compelled to leave by leadership who tolerated them.

    The new leadership holds non-headbanger members in contempt, prompting the exodus.
    LOL. What utter bollocks. So why exactly did all those tens of thousands of Tory members leave - you know, the ones Cameron referred to as fruitcakes and loonies? Hardly a sign of tolerance.

    I am getting great sense of satisfaction seeing the tables turned in this way even if I don't support Boris.
    Fake news, Cameron called Kippers mostly loonies, fruitcakes, and racists, not Tory members.
    Given that most of those Kippers were ex-Tory members driven out by Cameron and his ilk the difference is negligible.

    As I said I am glad that people like you and David are now starting to understand what it has been like for so many Conservatives in this country for a very long time. Perhaps you should reflect on that. The Tory leadership refusal to admit the party and the country was deeply unhappy with EU membership is the root cause of all of this. It is about time you took some responsibility.
    I'm certainly not glad.

    I'd rather see the Right united than divided.
    The Tory party are not the Right. Well they haven't been for many years until perhaps very recently. The party has no inalienable right to exist and thrive and they have put their survival in jeopardy by their refusal until niw to listen to both their membership and the wider public concerns.

    If getting a broad vhurch right of centre party reqiires the destruction of the Tory party then so be it.
  • FlannerFlanner Posts: 405
    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anorak said:
    And of course we find it difficult to grow the key ingredient in the UK. You know, the one that starts with a P...
    An interesting point though is that we are the largest Mozzarella producer in the EU, most of it in Wales.
    Whatever is produced in the UK is not mozzarella.

    Mozzarella is made from the milk from buffalo herds in the fields around Paestum and Salerno.

    Let's have some standards, please.
    Isn't that a special denominated type of Mozzarella?
    The designation "Mozzarella" is NOT protected by geographical source.
    The EU has three types of designation: PDO, PGI and TSG. Mozzarella qualifying for TSG ("traditional specialities guaranted") status merely needs to be made using the pasta filata method.

    There IS a PDO ("protected denomination of origin") for Mozzarella di Bufala Campana, which requires the cheese to be made from the milk of Italian water buffalo in specified parts of Campania, Lazio, Apulia and Molise.

    But no-one's made any claim that the UK is Europe's largest producer of MBC. And most Mozzarella sold in Italy makes no such claim either.
This discussion has been closed.