@Philip_Thompson I have no problem with US meat as long as they don’t get rid of the requirement to display where its from so consumers can make an informed decision.
Yes highly skilled migrants, it was bar and cafe workers and taxi drivers and hospitality and construction and factory and shop workers Leavers wanted fewer of not scientists, scientists are not competition for the average Hartlepool, Thurrock or Barnsley Leave voter and their
I wonder how many EU citizens there are working in Hartlepool coffee shops dragging down the wages of local baristas.
not more bar workers, factory and warehouse and building site workers
Because factories and warehouses are closing, so they won't need new housing and can't afford to go to bars.
Got it.
Any British worker can do that, you do not need to be very highly skilled to do those jobs
You don't need high skills to build a house? My Dad's seven year bricklaying apprenticeship calls bollocks.
Well most jobs need some skills but being a bricklayer does not need the same level of skills as being a software engineer or a brain surgeon, that is a fact
Yes highly skilled migrants, it was bar and cafe workers and taxi drivers and hospitality and construction and factory and shop workers Leavers wanted fewer of not scientists, scientists are not competition for the average Hartlepool, Thurrock or Barnsley Leave voter and their
I wonder how many EU citizens there are working in Hartlepool coffee shops dragging down the wages of local baristas.
I bet most of them are EU citizens.
Yes and Boris is saying those already here can stay, just we do not need more of them than required
not more bar workers, factory and warehouse and building site workers
Because factories and warehouses are closing, so they won't need new housing and can't afford to go to bars.
Got it.
Anecdata alert!
One of my pensions has halved in projected value because it is a with-profits fund based on overseas companies/funds. The Brexit-induced slide of the Pound against the Dollar and the Euro means I have to hope that the Pound recovers and that my pension recovers as a result.
If we No-Deal, people may find that there are consequences they did not expect for years to come.
@Philip_Thompson I have no problem with US meat as long as they don’t get rid of the requirement to display where its from so consumers can make an informed decision.
That requirement will go. We’ll take whatever Deal the US tells us we can have.
@Philip_Thompson I have no problem with US meat as long as they don’t get rid of the requirement to display where its from so consumers can make an informed decision.
Agreed. Let the public choose.
I suspect supermarkets will choose to keep "red tractor" meat available which will not by definition be American.
@Philip_Thompson I have no problem with US meat as long as they don’t get rid of the requirement to display where its from so consumers can make an informed decision.
Agreed. Let the public choose.
I suspect supermarkets will choose to keep "red tractor" meat available which will not by definition be American.
Except you can put money on a US-UK FTA making such markers illegal.
Yes highly skilled migrants, it was bar and cafe workers and taxi drivers and hospitality and construction and factory and shop workers Leavers wanted fewer of not scientists, scientists are not competition for the average Hartlepool, Thurrock or Barnsley Leave voter and their wages
Actually, I think higher skilled migrants are resented more, as they are perceived to inhibit the upward social mobility of indigenous Britons. The good folk of Hartlepool don't want to be the skivies for middle class foreigners in their own land.
That is rubbish, a few British corporate lawyers and bankers and scientists may resent more EU workers challenging them for their jobs and bonuses but EU workers in those areas have no impact on the wages of the average Hartlepool worker
Perhaps it's not such a concern for those of us with relatively high disposable incomes (though I'd refute the suggestion that it was "ridiculously cheap" for anybody bar the rich.)
For the just about managing or the outright poor, things aren't so smart and easy.
not more bar workers, factory and warehouse and building site workers
Because factories and warehouses are closing, so they won't need new housing and can't afford to go to bars.
Got it.
Any British worker can do that, you do not need to be very highly skilled to do those jobs
You don't need high skills to build a house? My Dad's seven year bricklaying apprenticeship calls bollocks.
Well most jobs need some skills but being a bricklayer does not need the same level of skills as being a software engineer or a brain surgeon, that is a fact
It requires a completely different set of skills. You said "any British worker can do that." When it comes to building a wall, wiring a house, laying foundations, or putting a roof on, I, and I suspect most people, wouldn't have a scooby doo. And that applies to heck of a lot of manual jobs.
@Philip_Thompson I have no problem with US meat as long as they don’t get rid of the requirement to display where its from so consumers can make an informed decision.
That requirement will go. We’ll take whatever Deal the US tells us we can have.
It doesn’t work anyway. If US importers aren’t required to meet existing U.K. food standards, then U.K. producers won’t either. Minimum Standards exist to protect the consumer, the producers will insist that they are common regardless of origin. Obviously.
@Philip_Thompson I have no problem with US meat as long as they don’t get rid of the requirement to display where its from so consumers can make an informed decision.
Agreed. Let the public choose.
I suspect supermarkets will choose to keep "red tractor" meat available which will not by definition be American.
Except you can put money on a US-UK FTA making such markers illegal.
I doubt it! American shops proudly display products that are American, so I doubt they will have any more desire to make it illegal than we do.
@Philip_Thompson I have no problem with US meat as long as they don’t get rid of the requirement to display where its from so consumers can make an informed decision.
Agreed. Let the public choose.
I suspect supermarkets will choose to keep "red tractor" meat available which will not by definition be American.
Except you can put money on a US-UK FTA making such markers illegal.
No - EU product origin rules will protect us from .... oh!
Perhaps it's not such a concern for those of us with relatively high disposable incomes (though I'd refute the suggestion that it was "ridiculously cheap" for anybody bar the rich.)
For the just about managing or the outright poor, things aren't so smart and easy.
I don’t have a high income. Quite the opposite. Our food is much cheaper than most of Western Europe in my experience.
I wish Leavers would make up their mind what they mean when they say they want the UK free to make its own trade deals. Are they Trumpian tariff-seekers or "flood the place with cheap stuff" libertarians?
I wish Leavers would make up their mind what they mean when they say they want the UK free to make its own trade deals. Are they Trumpian tariff-seekers or "flood the place with cheap stuff" libertarians?
not more bar workers, factory and warehouse and building site workers
Because factories and warehouses are closing, so they won't need new housing and can't afford to go to bars.
Got it.
Any British worker can do that, you do not need to be very highly skilled to do those jobs
You don't need high skills to build a house? My Dad's seven year bricklaying apprenticeship calls bollocks.
Well most jobs need some skills but being a bricklayer does not need the same level of skills as being a software engineer or a brain surgeon, that is a fact
Hmm, while you could easily spend seven years or more studying CompSci to masters or doctorate level, you don't actually need to to be a software engineer. My degree is in history and I'd say the amount of time I've spent in actual classrooms learning to program (specific languages) probably comes to less than a couple of months. But I've been doing it for nearly thirty years now!
Of course, whether I'm as good a software engineer as dixiedean's dad is a bricklayer is another matter.
No, to stop low skilled and medium skilled British workers wages being reduced by excess supply
British people don’t want many of these jobs. They are the sort of jobs that people seek to do temporarily whilst putting themselves through education, or to improve their language skills or whatever. They aren’t all occupied by Europeans “undercutting” keen U.K. workers. They are occupied by Europeans because they want to do them and U.K. workers don’t.
Another idiocy of rejecting the WA: we're going to end up in the same place, but an even worse deal because our negotiating position will be so weakened.
not more bar workers, factory and warehouse and building site workers
Because factories and warehouses are closing, so they won't need new housing and can't afford to go to bars.
Got it.
Any British worker can do that, you do not need to be very highly skilled to do those jobs
You don't need high skills to build a house? My Dad's seven year bricklaying apprenticeship calls bollocks.
Well most jobs need some skills but being a bricklayer does not need the same level of skills as being a software engineer or a brain surgeon, that is a fact
Hmm, while you could easily spend seven years or more studying CompSci to masters or doctorate level, you don't actually need to to be a software engineer. My degree is in history and I'd say the amount of time I've spent in actual classrooms learning to program (specific languages) probably comes to less than a couple of months. But I've been doing it for nearly thirty years now!
Of course, whether I'm as good a software engineer as dixiedean's dad is a bricklayer is another matter.
£2bn less to the Exchequer. There’s £38mn less a week right there...
They're all in the South of France. The place is teaming with billionaire Russians and Ukrainians. According to my estate agency chum they are buying like crazy which wasn't the case a couple of years ago. The British very little. I have to say the Babouchka's are much more attractive than popular perception would have it. They seem to be particularly drawn to Cap Ferrat and who can blame them though they don't exactly enhance it's reputation for understatement.
No, to stop low skilled and medium skilled British workers wages being reduced by excess supply
British people don’t want many of these jobs. They are the sort of jobs that people seek to do temporarily whilst putting themselves through education, or to improve their language skills or whatever. They aren’t all occupied by Europeans “undercutting” keen U.K. workers. They are occupied by Europeans because they want to do them and U.K. workers don’t.
Supply and demand.
If they don't want to do the jobs then don't do them. Maybe make the jobs more enticing: Improve living standards, raise the income etc - or maybe invest in technology so you can be more productive and not need the jobs. There's plenty of solutions.
not more bar workers, factory and warehouse and building site workers
Because factories and warehouses are closing, so they won't need new housing and can't afford to go to bars.
Got it.
Any British worker can do that, you do not need to be very highly skilled to do those jobs
You don't need high skills to build a house? My Dad's seven year bricklaying apprenticeship calls bollocks.
Well most jobs need some skills but being a bricklayer does not need the same level of skills as being a software engineer or a brain surgeon, that is a fact
Hmm, while you could easily spend seven years or more studying CompSci to masters or doctorate level, you don't actually need to to be a software engineer. My degree is in history and I'd say the amount of time I've spent in actual classrooms learning to program (specific languages) probably comes to less than a couple of months. But I've been doing it for nearly thirty years now!
Of course, whether I'm as good a software engineer as dixiedean's dad is a bricklayer is another matter.
Perhaps it's not such a concern for those of us with relatively high disposable incomes (though I'd refute the suggestion that it was "ridiculously cheap" for anybody bar the rich.)
For the just about managing or the outright poor, things aren't so smart and easy.
The percentage of income spent on food has been in steady decline for decades. Calories, particularly empty ones have never been so cheap.
@Philip_Thompson I have no problem with US meat as long as they don’t get rid of the requirement to display where its from so consumers can make an informed decision.
Agreed. Let the public choose.
I suspect supermarkets will choose to keep "red tractor" meat available which will not by definition be American.
Except you can put money on a US-UK FTA making such markers illegal.
I doubt it! American shops proudly display products that are American, so I doubt they will have any more desire to make it illegal than we do.
Oh you poor sweet summer child! You don't actually think the US makes equal trade agreements do you?
not more bar workers, factory and warehouse and building site workers
Because factories and warehouses are closing, so they won't need new housing and can't afford to go to bars.
Got it.
Any British worker can do that, you do not need to be very highly skilled to do those jobs
You don't need high skills to build a house? My Dad's seven year bricklaying apprenticeship calls bollocks.
Well most jobs need some skills but being a bricklayer does not need the same level of skills as being a software engineer or a brain surgeon, that is a fact
Hmm, while you could easily spend seven years or more studying CompSci to masters or doctorate level, you don't actually need to to be a software engineer. My degree is in history and I'd say the amount of time I've spent in actual classrooms learning to program (specific languages) probably comes to less than a couple of months. But I've been doing it for nearly thirty years now!
Of course, whether I'm as good a software engineer as dixiedean's dad is a bricklayer is another matter.
To be fair, it is his 79th birthday tomorrow and he has chronic heart failure, so you probably beat him on the productivity front!
Swinson for next PM is looking like a value bet at the moment.
For 100/1 with Ladbrokes you can get Caroline Lucas, who is an ardent Remainer, acceptable and unthreatening to the Corbynites and on good enough terms with the Lib Dems. Why not?
No, to stop low skilled and medium skilled British workers wages being reduced by excess supply
British people don’t want many of these jobs. They are the sort of jobs that people seek to do temporarily whilst putting themselves through education, or to improve their language skills or whatever. They aren’t all occupied by Europeans “undercutting” keen U.K. workers. They are occupied by Europeans because they want to do them and U.K. workers don’t.
Low skilled and medium skilled British workers do do construction work, factory work, retail work, warehouse work, bar work, plumbing work, drive taxis etc all of which do not need many more EU workers than are already here increasing the supply of the workforce and reducing British workers wages in those areas.
More EU scientists, doctors and nurses and software engineers we do need
not more bar workers, factory and warehouse and building site workers
Because factories and warehouses are closing, so they won't need new housing and can't afford to go to bars.
Got it.
Any British worker can do that, you do not need to be very highly skilled to do those jobs
You don't need high skills to build a house? My Dad's seven year bricklaying apprenticeship calls bollocks.
Well most jobs need some skills but being a bricklayer does not need the same level of skills as being a software engineer or a brain surgeon, that is a fact
Hmm, while you could easily spend seven years or more studying CompSci to masters or doctorate level, you don't actually need to to be a software engineer. My degree is in history and I'd say the amount of time I've spent in actual classrooms learning to program (specific languages) probably comes to less than a couple of months. But I've been doing it for nearly thirty years now!
Of course, whether I'm as good a software engineer as dixiedean's dad is a bricklayer is another matter.
To be fair, it is 79th birthday tomorrow and he has chronic heart failure, so you probably beat him on the productivity front!
Fair, but probably not when he was thirty years into his trade!
How can the Commons do anything to affect the course of events *unless* a majority of MPs can be found to back an alternative Prime Minister?
Unless at least some Tory rebels - as well as everybody else besides the Tory loyalists and the DUP, including various ex-Labour "never Corbyn" types - can be persuaded to install Jeremy Corbyn as PM, then there is no other alternative. Because no alternative to Corbyn will be backed by Corbyn, and he has enough hardcore supporters on his own benches to stymie a Labour rebellion of any size.
The Commons can't pass legislation to unilaterally extend the A50 deadline, because it also needs the agreement of the EU27 and - if my understanding is correct - the only acceptable interlocutor between the UK and the European Council would be either the head of Government or the head of State. Boris Johnson remains acting head of Government in the event of a VoNC until a replacement can command the confidence of the House - so the only option that leaves MPs with is to attempt to command the Queen to do their dirty work for them.
HM is, of course, a constitutional monarch whose position is conventionally interpreted as being apolitical, so the Palace would presumably be both inclined and entitled to refuse were such a daft request to be made. Then what?
I think that's a good summary. Basically the MPs need to start voting for stuff instead of only voting against stuff. Trouble is they are all frightened of facing the electorate aftet they have actually done something concrete.
No, to stop low skilled and medium skilled British workers wages being reduced by excess supply
British people don’t want many of these jobs. They are the sort of jobs that people seek to do temporarily whilst putting themselves through education, or to improve their language skills or whatever. They aren’t all occupied by Europeans “undercutting” keen U.K. workers. They are occupied by Europeans because they want to do them and U.K. workers don’t.
Supply and demand.
If they don't want to do the jobs then don't do them. Maybe make the jobs more enticing: Improve living standards, raise the income etc - or maybe invest in technology so you can be more productive and not need the jobs. There's plenty of solutions.
Step 1 - whip up anti immigrant feeling against those coming here “undercutting and taking our jobs”.
Step 2 - remove said immigrants
Step 3 - “bloody machines, coming here stealing all our jobs...”
@Philip_Thompson I have no problem with US meat as long as they don’t get rid of the requirement to display where its from so consumers can make an informed decision.
Agreed. Let the public choose.
I suspect supermarkets will choose to keep "red tractor" meat available which will not by definition be American.
Except you can put money on a US-UK FTA making such markers illegal.
I doubt it! American shops proudly display products that are American, so I doubt they will have any more desire to make it illegal than we do.
Oh you poor sweet summer child! You don't actually think the US makes equal trade agreements do you?
I don't believe the US is going to put a restriction on us advertising products that are British while they continue to be able to advertise products are American. No, that's not happening. Don't be silly.
I'd like to see a single trade deal anywhere that bans anything like Red Tractor - and on one side alone.
Perhaps it's not such a concern for those of us with relatively high disposable incomes (though I'd refute the suggestion that it was "ridiculously cheap" for anybody bar the rich.)
For the just about managing or the outright poor, things aren't so smart and easy.
The percentage of income spent on food has been in steady decline for decades. Calories, particularly empty ones have never been so cheap.
These things are all relative, of course. However, I'm not sure that people on low incomes growing obese on ultra-processed crap, because nearly every penny they have goes on paying astronomical housing costs, constitutes progress. The NHS isn't constantly complaining that it's on its last legs and in desperate need of stuffing with more and more and more cash because of the ageing population, so much as that so many people are so fucking fat.
But I digress. Even "cheap" food doesn't feel cheap if you can scarcely afford to buy it.
No, to stop low skilled and medium skilled British workers wages being reduced by excess supply
British people don’t want many of these jobs. They are the sort of jobs that people seek to do temporarily whilst putting themselves through education, or to improve their language skills or whatever. They aren’t all occupied by Europeans “undercutting” keen U.K. workers. They are occupied by Europeans because they want to do them and U.K. workers don’t.
Low skilled and medium skilled British workers do do construction work, factory work, retail work, warehouse work, bar work, plumbing work, drive taxis etc all of which do not need many more EU workers than are already here increasing the supply of the workforce and reducing British workers wages in those areas.
More EU scientists, doctors and nurses and software engineers we do need
Could we kindly leave software engineers where they come from. I’m fed up flying across Europe and fixing issues because the locals can’t recruit anyone good
Swinson for next PM is looking like a value bet at the moment.
It was reassuring to see Johnson look so uncomfortable when asked in a factory whether he was intending to hang on and ignore if parliament votes against him. It looked to me like he felt himself to be the fraud many of us think he is.
Swinson for next PM is looking like a value bet at the moment.
For 100/1 with Ladbrokes you can get Caroline Lucas, who is an ardent Remainer, acceptable and unthreatening to the Corbynites and on good enough terms with the Lib Dems. Why not?
John Howard then PM of Australia controversially brought his country into the Iraq war on the idea that Australia should stay close to America and this would unlock all sorts of trade deals. Howard then called in the favour and after some foot dragging on the part of the Americans got his FTA The Australia Productivity Commission subsequently reviewed the deal and determined it brought no net advantage to Australia, which did far better with another multilateral deal.
Why should we expect any FTA with the US not to leave us actually worse off? The president now dislikes any arrangement that doesn't give the US an egregious advantage, unlike Bush he doesn't owe us any favours. And our government seems DESPERATE to sign.
@Philip_Thompson I have no problem with US meat as long as they don’t get rid of the requirement to display where its from so consumers can make an informed decision.
Agreed. Let the public choose.
I suspect supermarkets will choose to keep "red tractor" meat available which will not by definition be American.
Except you can put money on a US-UK FTA making such markers illegal.
I doubt it! American shops proudly display products that are American, so I doubt they will have any more desire to make it illegal than we do.
Oh you poor sweet summer child! You don't actually think the US makes equal trade agreements do you?
I would never pretend to be an expert on trade agreements, so I may be being hopelessly naive here, but I always assumed they dealt with, y'know, trade (principally tariffs and production standards). Are you seriously suggesting that they routinely involve provisions to change laws in the other side's country to make their exports less unattractive to consumers?
How can the Commons do anything to affect the course of events *unless* a majority of MPs can be found to back an alternative Prime Minister?
Unless at least some Tory rebels - as well as everybody else besides the Tory loyalists and the DUP, including various ex-Labour "never Corbyn" types - can be persuaded to install Jeremy Corbyn as PM, then there is no other alternative. Because no alternative to Corbyn will be backed by Corbyn, and he has enough hardcore supporters on his own benches to stymie a Labour rebellion of any size.
Yes, that's been my view for some time. It's why I wrote the Labour List article arguing for a minimalist offer from Corbyn (get EU to extend A50 for 3 months, call an election, nothing else) which the we-don't-want-a-marxist-government folk might accept. If we don't make the offer or they don't accept it, No Deal almost inevitably follows.
No, to stop low skilled and medium skilled British workers wages being reduced by excess supply
British people don’t want many of these jobs. They are the sort of jobs that people seek to do temporarily whilst putting themselves through education, or to improve their language skills or whatever. They aren’t all occupied by Europeans “undercutting” keen U.K. workers. They are occupied by Europeans because they want to do them and U.K. workers don’t.
Rubbish. The reason people “don’t want to do jobs” is ALWAYS because they are not paid well enough to earn a decent living. This is the excuse the establishment always uses to promote migrant labour.
Comments
One of my pensions has halved in projected value because it is a with-profits fund based on overseas companies/funds. The Brexit-induced slide of the Pound against the Dollar and the Euro means I have to hope that the Pound recovers and that my pension recovers as a result.
If we No-Deal, people may find that there are consequences they did not expect for years to come.
I wonder who will get blamed?
I suspect supermarkets will choose to keep "red tractor" meat available which will not by definition be American.
Got it.
For the just about managing or the outright poor, things aren't so smart and easy.
And that applies to heck of a lot of manual jobs.
https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1159569587471638528
https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1159569604630503426
https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1159569606639575041
Got it.
Are they Trumpian tariff-seekers or "flood the place with cheap stuff" libertarians?
YES!!! Bring it on!
About time we have solid leadership in Number 10. What a wasted three years we had under May but now we can move forwards with confidence.
Pirate Island Libertarian all the way.
Of course, whether I'm as good a software engineer as dixiedean's dad is a bricklayer is another matter.
https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1159569606639575041
Another idiocy of rejecting the WA: we're going to end up in the same place, but an even worse deal because our negotiating position will be so weakened.
Lib Dem MPs
If they don't want to do the jobs then don't do them. Maybe make the jobs more enticing: Improve living standards, raise the income etc - or maybe invest in technology so you can be more productive and not need the jobs. There's plenty of solutions.
https://www.vox.com/2014/7/6/5874499/map-heres-how-much-every-country-spends-on-food
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45559594
More EU scientists, doctors and nurses and software engineers we do need
Step 2 - remove said immigrants
Step 3 - “bloody machines, coming here stealing all our jobs...”
I'd like to see a single trade deal anywhere that bans anything like Red Tractor - and on one side alone.
But I digress. Even "cheap" food doesn't feel cheap if you can scarcely afford to buy it.
Who the hell knows what will happen...
John Howard then PM of Australia controversially brought his country into the Iraq war on the idea that Australia should stay close to America and this would unlock all sorts of trade deals. Howard then called in the favour and after some foot dragging on the part of the Americans got his FTA The Australia Productivity Commission subsequently reviewed the deal and determined it brought no net advantage to Australia, which did far better with another multilateral deal.
Why should we expect any FTA with the US not to leave us actually worse off? The president now dislikes any arrangement that doesn't give the US an egregious advantage, unlike Bush he doesn't owe us any favours. And our government seems DESPERATE to sign.