"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
I guess that is the point.
The MPs are grossly unrepresentative. Of course, this is often discussed in terms of gender or ethnicity, but there are also many other & equally important ways that the MPs are grossly unrepresentative.
Lawyers & barristers in general are over-represented in Parliament, so I am not hugely sympathetic to Cyclefree's grumble.
A Minister for Science could be in the House of Lords, rather than Commons, and so parties could appoint trained scientists by ennobling them.
In my opinion, the Secretary of State for Energy & Climate Change should also be a trained scientist.
Baron (Peter) Lilley has a degree in physics.
I am not an expert on Lilley, but wiki says "He was educated at Dulwich College and Clare College, Cambridge, where he studied natural sciences before switching to economics."
I think that normally translates to he found natural sciences too difficult and switched to economics.
Interesting. I met him as a student in 1964 on a study tour of the Midi, when he was studying physics. He was even then very impressive in economics discussions (that was my subject). In a paper of his a year or two back he describes himself as having a physics background.
I just wonder how people as dumb as this get into these positions.
Says the person too thick to realise Patel never said any of that.
You really are a cretinous halfwitted moron. Whether 36K or 30K it is a policy thought up by thick millionaires who have no idea what actually happens in the country in real life. They are supported by xenophobic morons like yourself. At that level it would preclude nearly every skill required by the UK.
I'm not xenophobic, I want liberalised migration.
I was cheering here the other day when they liberalised the science migration and removed the job offer requirement - which means no salary other requirement either.
But why let facts get in the way of a good rant? Whether it be facts about Patel, or facts about me . . . that's two mistakes in a row. Go chew on a turnip then come back with a less sour disposition.
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
Interestingly, Lord Mackie of Clashfern, Lord Chancellor 1987-1997, was originally a mathematician and got as far as teaching at a university, before he rashly threw it all away and retrained as a lawyer.
I wonder if he was the most successful mathematician in politics?
How about Paul Painleve?
Mathematics Professor at the Sorbonne, his work on integrability is famous. Then French Prime Minister.
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
Almost no jobs in the North East pay 80k. Not sure how hard that is for you to understand.
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
Almost no jobs in the North East pay 80k. Not sure how hard that is for you to understand.
Some top jobs do and nothing to stop them going to London or Manchester or working abroad then coming back to represent their home area
Scientist MPs? I can only think of Sir Philip Dawson (Lewisham West) who was a celebrated electrical engineer. But he died in 1938 and had fascist sympathies.
C P Snow was a physicist.
Cultural historians have over 30 different names for C.P.Snow.
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
So, just to be clear, you're saying you have to have a degree to become an MP? And it has to be a "good" degree from a "good" university?
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
Almost no jobs in the North East pay 80k. Not sure how hard that is for you to understand.
Some top jobs do and nothing to stop them going to London or Manchester or working abroad then coming back to represent their home area
Interestingly, Lord Mackie of Clashfern, Lord Chancellor 1987-1997, was originally a mathematician and got as far as teaching at a university, before he rashly threw it all away and retrained as a lawyer.
I wonder if he was the most successful mathematician in politics?
How about Paul Painleve?
Mathematics Professor at the Sorbonne, his work on integrability is famous. Then French Prime Minister.
Interestingly, Lord Mackie of Clashfern, Lord Chancellor 1987-1997, was originally a mathematician and got as far as teaching at a university, before he rashly threw it all away and retrained as a lawyer.
I wonder if he was the most successful mathematician in politics?
How about Paul Painleve?
Mathematics Professor at the Sorbonne, his work on integrability is famous. Then French Prime Minister.
That's interesting. I had just been thinking of the UK. Google produces some more examples from other countries:
President of Ireland Éamon de Valera French prime minister Paul Painlevé Grenadian prime minister Keith Mitchell Central African prime minister Faustin-Archange Touadéra Burmese prime minister in exile Sein Win Iraqi deputy prime minister Ahmed Chalabi Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak Polish prime minister Kazimierz Bartel Italian prime minister Luigi Federico Menabrea Lebanese opposition politician Muhammad Baydoun Pakistani politician Taj Haider
de Valera got as far as postgraduate study, apparently.
Thanks to Cyclefree for another withering piece on the state of affairs. I was reasonably involved in this as an MP - toured the local prison, had a detailed briefing on another, and help write the Justice Select Committee paper on the relative costs and benefits of different kinds of investment in the justice system, based on international experien ce - for what it's worth the thing I'm most proud of doing in my 13 years in the Commons.
Simulating a Tory of the old-fashioned "spend wisely" kind for a moment (before the current team adopted mock-Keynesian economics), which of the problems that Cyclefree identifies would she (or others) give priority to allocating money for? I appreciate that some just need changes in attitude, but others really require substantial sums. Would there be anything we should give up on (e.g. never imprison anyone for less than a year)?
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
Almost no jobs in the North East pay 80k. Not sure how hard that is for you to understand.
Thing is. It is very difficult to get many well off people from the SE to understand this. @HYUFD is far from alone. It simply does not compute. That 30k is a pretty damn good screw in the NE is just flat out unbelievable for them. It defines Metropolitan elite better than anything else.
Interestingly, Lord Mackie of Clashfern, Lord Chancellor 1987-1997, was originally a mathematician and got as far as teaching at a university, before he rashly threw it all away and retrained as a lawyer.
I wonder if he was the most successful mathematician in politics?
How about Paul Painleve?
Mathematics Professor at the Sorbonne, his work on integrability is famous. Then French Prime Minister.
I'll raise you Éamon de Valera.
I did think of Dev, but he was never a mathematics professor, nor did he publish any mathematics papers.
Kelvin was very active in the Conservative & Unionist party, but he was never an MP. He was knighted for his political activities (not his scientific work).
Newton had a highly discreditable political career as Master of the Mint.
“If the Scottish government requested that they hold a second referendum on Scottish independence in the next 5 years, do you think the UK Government should accept or refuse that request?” (net allow)
London +27 Scotland +12 South of England +10 N Ireland +7 Wales +2 Midlands +2 North of England +1
Maybe it might help if I defined Trump as anti-Puritan.
Ah, well I'm one then. An even bigger one than you or Cyclefree. I'm the world's bigliest puritan. I'm the most puritan person you will ever meet. I haven't got a non-puritan bone in my body.
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
Almost no jobs in the North East pay 80k. Not sure how hard that is for you to understand.
Thing is. It is very difficult to get many well off people from the SE to understand this. @HYUFD is far from alone. It simply does not compute. That 30k is a pretty damn good screw in the NE is just flat out unbelievable for them. It defines Metropolitan elite better than anything else.
Or that many people have to survive on £10k a year in London.
“If the Scottish government requested that they hold a second referendum on Scottish independence in the next 5 years, do you think the UK Government should accept or refuse that request?” (net allow)
London +27 Scotland +12 South of England +10 N Ireland +7 Wales +2 Midlands +2 North of England +1
“If the Scottish government requested that they hold a second referendum on Scottish independence in the next 5 years, do you think the UK Government should accept or refuse that request?” (net allow)
London +27 Scotland +12 South of England +10 N Ireland +7 Wales +2 Midlands +2 North of England +1
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
So, just to be clear, you're saying you have to have a degree to become an MP? And it has to be a "good" degree from a "good" university?
No but 90% of MPs went to university and 63% to a Russell Group university which is hardly surprising for a job with a salary of £79 000 a year
A terrific thread header which seems wasted on the likes of us. I'd only emphasise that higher remuneration is not a certain route to better professional conduct.
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
So, just to be clear, you're saying you have to have a degree to become an MP? And it has to be a "good" degree from a "good" university?
No but 90% of MPs went to university and 63% to a Russell Group university which is hardly surprising for a job with a salary of £79 000 a year
The rule of law is deteriorating, and all the signs are that it will continue to do. This is part of a broader problem, which is the decline of civilisation. I have been observing this for the past 20 years, but only became conscious of it in the last 2. The current government are the latest variants of a liberal elite who are trying to arrest the decline of civilisation by pandering to the mob. This is a story that rarely ends well, as history attests.
Perhaps being dense - it's not unknown - but this sounds slightly odd.
If you started to observe something in 1999 but only became conscious of it in 2017, what were you looking at in, say, 2006?
It implies that you were kind of staring into space.
Raw data isn't information. People observed the sun rise for hundreds of thousands of years, but it's only recently that they realised that we go around it, not vice-versa. It is possible to observe something and register it, but simply not note its importance. Einstein (?) once said that the definition of genius is to notice the obvious thing that everybody else has overlooked...
“If the Scottish government requested that they hold a second referendum on Scottish independence in the next 5 years, do you think the UK Government should accept or refuse that request?” (net allow)
London +27 Scotland +12 South of England +10 N Ireland +7 Wales +2 Midlands +2 North of England +1
John McDonnell seems to be truly in tune with public opinion on this issue.
Astonishing that more London voters for allowing indyref2 than Scottish voters, shows how much diehard Remainers think breaking up the Union should be used to punish Leavers
Somewhat on topic @Cyclefree, I have not even been entertaining going into the criminal side of law following my further studies for many of the reasons you’ve highlighted
As if all this were not bad enough there has been an outrageous smash and grab raid at Old Trafford this afternoon. Boys in blue seem clueless.
Almost backed Chelsea because the odds were good and Man U forgot to replace their decent striker - but I backed out when I didn't recognise the Chelsea striker.
I did however lose in the Arsenal match. I thought Newcastle were going toe-to-toe with them and got on at what I thought of as value 3/1
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
So, just to be clear, you're saying you have to have a degree to become an MP? And it has to be a "good" degree from a "good" university?
No but 90% of MPs went to university and 63% to a Russell Group university which is hardly surprising for a job with a salary of £79 000 a year
Looking at the membership of the Russell Group I was rather shocked to see that they had let in three "new universities" - by which I mean institutions founded in the 1960s!
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
So, just to be clear, you're saying you have to have a degree to become an MP? And it has to be a "good" degree from a "good" university?
No but 90% of MPs went to university and 63% to a Russell Group university which is hardly surprising for a job with a salary of £79 000 a year
On the Labour side it may explain why they have lost touch with working class voters and many working class voters are now voting Brexit Party but I have no problem with MPs being well educated
Thing is. It is very difficult to get many well off people from the SE to understand this. @HYUFD is far from alone. It simply does not compute. That 30k is a pretty damn good screw in the NE is just flat out unbelievable for them. It defines Metropolitan elite better than anything else.
But because of property prices and rents, a lower salary in (say) Sheffield can allow a similar standard of living to a considerably higher one in (say) Streatham - I think that's fair to say?
The rule of law is deteriorating, and all the signs are that it will continue to do. This is part of a broader problem, which is the decline of civilisation. I have been observing this for the past 20 years, but only became conscious of it in the last 2. The current government are the latest variants of a liberal elite who are trying to arrest the decline of civilisation by pandering to the mob. This is a story that rarely ends well, as history attests.
Perhaps being dense - it's not unknown - but this sounds slightly odd.
If you started to observe something in 1999 but only became conscious of it in 2017, what were you looking at in, say, 2006?
It implies that you were kind of staring into space.
Raw data isn't information. People observed the sun rise for hundreds of thousands of years, but it's only recently that they realised that we go around it, not vice-versa. It is possible to observe something and register it, but simply not note its importance. Einstein (?) once said that the definition of genius is to notice the obvious thing that everybody else has overlooked...
"You see, but you do not observe. The distinction is clear." - Sherlock Holmes.
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
So, just to be clear, you're saying you have to have a degree to become an MP? And it has to be a "good" degree from a "good" university?
No but 90% of MPs went to university and 63% to a Russell Group university which is hardly surprising for a job with a salary of £79 000 a year
Looking at the membership of the Russell Group I was rather shocked to see that they had let in three "new universities" - by which I mean institutions founded in the 1960s!
Thing is. It is very difficult to get many well off people from the SE to understand this. @HYUFD is far from alone. It simply does not compute. That 30k is a pretty damn good screw in the NE is just flat out unbelievable for them. It defines Metropolitan elite better than anything else.
But because of property prices and rents, a lower salary in (say) Sheffield can allow a similar standard of living to a considerably higher one in (say) Streatham - I think that's fair to say?
Indeed a house in the North East costs about a quarter of the price of a house in London
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
So, just to be clear, you're saying you have to have a degree to become an MP? And it has to be a "good" degree from a "good" university?
No but 90% of MPs went to university and 63% to a Russell Group university which is hardly surprising for a job with a salary of £79 000 a year
Looking at the membership of the Russell Group I was rather shocked to see that they had let in three "new universities" - by which I mean institutions founded in the 1960s!
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
So, just to be clear, you're saying you have to have a degree to become an MP? And it has to be a "good" degree from a "good" university?
No but 90% of MPs went to university and 63% to a Russell Group university which is hardly surprising for a job with a salary of £79 000 a year
Looking at the membership of the Russell Group I was rather shocked to see that they had let in three "new universities" - by which I mean institutions founded in the 1960s!
All highly ranked universities though
No disparagement to your own alma mater intended!
None taken, having attended a school founded in the 16th century I had no problem studying at a university founded 400 years later
93% of social care staff are not from the EU and any that are will have the right to remain. What's the big deal?
The huge deal is that EU or non EU they will have to earn £36,000 in future to come here. You are not going to earn £36,000 working in social care. So we either try and find UK nationals willing to work for the amounts on offer (bet of luck with that) or the costs of social care will rise.
93% of social care staff are not from the EU and any that are will have the right to remain. What's the big deal?
The huge deal is that EU or non EU they will have to earn £36,000 in future to come here. You are not going to earn £36,000 working in social care. So we either try and find UK nationals willing to work for the amounts on offer (bet of luck with that) or the costs of social care will rise.
It will not be aproblem when Brexit forces a revaluation of Sterling and hyperinflation means street sweepers will be earning £4 million a week.
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
So, just to be clear, you're saying you have to have a degree to become an MP? And it has to be a "good" degree from a "good" university?
No but 90% of MPs went to university and 63% to a Russell Group university which is hardly surprising for a job with a salary of £79 000 a year
Looking at the membership of the Russell Group I was rather shocked to see that they had let in three "new universities" - by which I mean institutions founded in the 1960s!
All highly ranked universities though
No disparagement to your own alma mater intended!
None taken, having attended a school founded in the 16th century I had no problem studying at a university founded 400 years later
I get your drift. You're telling us you didn't go to a Secondary Modern?
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
So, just to be clear, you're saying you have to have a degree to become an MP? And it has to be a "good" degree from a "good" university?
No but 90% of MPs went to university and 63% to a Russell Group university which is hardly surprising for a job with a salary of £79 000 a year
Looking at the membership of the Russell Group I was rather shocked to see that they had let in three "new universities" - by which I mean institutions founded in the 1960s!
All highly ranked universities though
No disparagement to your own alma mater intended!
None taken, having attended a school founded in the 16th century I had no problem studying at a university founded 400 years later
I get your drift. You're telling us you didn't go to a Secondary Modern?
If HYUFD is representative of the modern Tory party, then they are in a lot more trouble than I thought.
Maybe it might help if I defined Trump as anti-Puritan.
Ah, well I'm one then. An even bigger one than you or Cyclefree. I'm the world's bigliest puritan. I'm the most puritan person you will ever meet. I haven't got a non-puritan bone in my body.
Trump said fairly recently that he has a real feel for science.
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
Name anything an MP does that a labourer or shop worker , etc could not do.
The rule of law is deteriorating, and all the signs are that it will continue to do. This is part of a broader problem, which is the decline of civilisation. I have been observing this for the past 20 years, but only became conscious of it in the last 2. The current government are the latest variants of a liberal elite who are trying to arrest the decline of civilisation by pandering to the mob. This is a story that rarely ends well, as history attests.
Perhaps being dense - it's not unknown - but this sounds slightly odd.
If you started to observe something in 1999 but only became conscious of it in 2017, what were you looking at in, say, 2006?
It implies that you were kind of staring into space.
Raw data isn't information. People observed the sun rise for hundreds of thousands of years, but it's only recently that they realised that we go around it, not vice-versa. It is possible to observe something and register it, but simply not note its importance. Einstein (?) once said that the definition of genius is to notice the obvious thing that everybody else has overlooked...
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
Name anything an MP does that a labourer or shop worker , etc could not do.
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
Almost no jobs in the North East pay 80k. Not sure how hard that is for you to understand.
Some top jobs do and nothing to stop them going to London or Manchester or working abroad then coming back to represent their home area
Maybe it might help if I defined Trump as anti-Puritan.
Ah, well I'm one then. An even bigger one than you or Cyclefree. I'm the world's bigliest puritan. I'm the most puritan person you will ever meet. I haven't got a non-puritan bone in my body.
Trump said fairly recently that he has a real feel for science.
Maybe it might help if I defined Trump as anti-Puritan.
Ah, well I'm one then. An even bigger one than you or Cyclefree. I'm the world's bigliest puritan. I'm the most puritan person you will ever meet. I haven't got a non-puritan bone in my body.
Trump said fairly recently that he has a real feel for science..
Well, he has often talked about his grasp of reproductive organs.
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
Name anything an MP does that a labourer or shop worker , etc could not do.
Claim thousands of pounds in expenses. Get school holidays off. Eat fine food in a subsidised restaurant. Get pissed at work? It's a long list.
The rule of law is deteriorating, and all the signs are that it will continue to do. This is part of a broader problem, which is the decline of civilisation. I have been observing this for the past 20 years, but only became conscious of it in the last 2. The current government are the latest variants of a liberal elite who are trying to arrest the decline of civilisation by pandering to the mob. This is a story that rarely ends well, as history attests.
Perhaps being dense - it's not unknown - but this sounds slightly odd.
If you started to observe something in 1999 but only became conscious of it in 2017, what were you looking at in, say, 2006?
It implies that you were kind of staring into space.
Raw data isn't information. People observed the sun rise for hundreds of thousands of years, but it's only recently that they realised that we go around it, not vice-versa. It is possible to observe something and register it, but simply not note its importance. Einstein (?) once said that the definition of genius is to notice the obvious thing that everybody else has overlooked...
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
So, just to be clear, you're saying you have to have a degree to become an MP? And it has to be a "good" degree from a "good" university?
No but 90% of MPs went to university and 63% to a Russell Group university which is hardly surprising for a job with a salary of £79 000 a year
Looking at the membership of the Russell Group I was rather shocked to see that they had let in three "new universities" - by which I mean institutions founded in the 1960s!
All highly ranked universities though
No disparagement to your own alma mater intended!
None taken, having attended a school founded in the 16th century I had no problem studying at a university founded 400 years later
I get your drift. You're telling us you didn't go to a Secondary Modern?
If HYUFD is representative of the modern Tory party, then they are in a lot more trouble than I thought.
I am not actually, only 44% of the current generation of Tory MPs went to private school compared to 73% in 1979
The rule of law is deteriorating, and all the signs are that it will continue to do. This is part of a broader problem, which is the decline of civilisation. I have been observing this for the past 20 years, but only became conscious of it in the last 2. The current government are the latest variants of a liberal elite who are trying to arrest the decline of civilisation by pandering to the mob. This is a story that rarely ends well, as history attests.
Perhaps being dense - it's not unknown - but this sounds slightly odd.
If you started to observe something in 1999 but only became conscious of it in 2017, what were you looking at in, say, 2006?
It implies that you were kind of staring into space.
Raw data isn't information. People observed the sun rise for hundreds of thousands of years, but it's only recently that they realised that we go around it, not vice-versa. It is possible to observe something and register it, but simply not note its importance. Einstein (?) once said that the definition of genius is to notice the obvious thing that everybody else has overlooked...
“If the Scottish government requested that they hold a second referendum on Scottish independence in the next 5 years, do you think the UK Government should accept or refuse that request?” (net allow)
London +27 Scotland +12 South of England +10 N Ireland +7 Wales +2 Midlands +2 North of England +1
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
Name anything an MP does that a labourer or shop worker , etc could not do.
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
Name anything an MP does that a labourer or shop worker , etc could not do.
Scrutinising legislation, especially on more complex matters, is not an easy task
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
Name anything an MP does that a labourer or shop worker , etc could not do.
Not talk in a heavily localised accent. Anyone noticed the "labour MP accent" it's weird - it's like we can talk normal but we choose not to to gain votes.
“If the Scottish government requested that they hold a second referendum on Scottish independence in the next 5 years, do you think the UK Government should accept or refuse that request?” (net allow)
London +27 Scotland +12 South of England +10 N Ireland +7 Wales +2 Midlands +2 North of England +1
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
So, just to be clear, you're saying you have to have a degree to become an MP? And it has to be a "good" degree from a "good" university?
No but 90% of MPs went to university and 63% to a Russell Group university which is hardly surprising for a job with a salary of £79 000 a year
Looking at the membership of the Russell Group I was rather shocked to see that they had let in three "new universities" - by which I mean institutions founded in the 1960s!
All highly ranked universities though
No disparagement to your own alma mater intended!
None taken, having attended a school founded in the 16th century I had no problem studying at a university founded 400 years later
I get your drift. You're telling us you didn't go to a Secondary Modern?
If HYUFD is representative of the modern Tory party, then they are in a lot more trouble than I thought.
How can that be so when most of them are more than twice his age?
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
So, just to be clear, you're saying you have to have a degree to become an MP? And it has to be a "good" degree from a "good" university?
No but 90% of MPs went to university and 63% to a Russell Group university which is hardly surprising for a job with a salary of £79 000 a year
Looking at the membership of the Russell Group I was rather shocked to see that they had let in three "new universities" - by which I mean institutions founded in the 1960s!
All highly ranked universities though
No disparagement to your own alma mater intended!
None taken, having attended a school founded in the 16th century I had no problem studying at a university founded 400 years later
I get your drift. You're telling us you didn't go to a Secondary Modern?
If HYUFD is representative of the modern Tory party, then they are in a lot more trouble than I thought.
I am not actually, only 44% of the current generation of Tory MPs went to private school compared to 73% in 1979
Thing is. It is very difficult to get many well off people from the SE to understand this. @HYUFD is far from alone. It simply does not compute. That 30k is a pretty damn good screw in the NE is just flat out unbelievable for them. It defines Metropolitan elite better than anything else.
But because of property prices and rents, a lower salary in (say) Sheffield can allow a similar standard of living to a considerably higher one in (say) Streatham - I think that's fair to say?
Of course it is fair to say that. The quality of life is incomparable up North...even in Yorkshire!
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but ome MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
So, just to be clear, you're saying you have to have a degree to become an MP? And it has to be a "good" degree from a "good" university?
No but 90% of MPs went to university and 63% to a Russell Group university which is hardly surprising for a job with a salary of £79 000 a year
Looking at the membership of the Russell Group I was rather shocked to see that they had let in three "new universities" - by which I mean institutions founded in the 1960s!
All highly ranked universities though
No disparagement to your own alma mater intended!
None taken, having attended a school founded in the 16th century I had no problem studying at a university founded 400 years later
I get your drift. You're telling us you didn't go to a Secondary Modern?
If HYUFD is representative of the modern Tory party, then they are in a lot more trouble than I thought.
I am not actually, only 44% of the current generation of Tory MPs went to private school compared to 73% in 1979
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
Name anything an MP does that a labourer or shop worker , etc could not do.
type a letter
Ouch. Take that, you proles!
I find it best, when in the pub, not to flash off your non-hardened skin on your hands as a plus point of your job.
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
Name anything an MP does that a labourer or shop worker , etc could not do.
Scrutinising legislation, especially on more complex matters, is not an easy task
I've not read the twitter thread but the same claim was made by the incoming Cameron government, and it soon became apparent that ministers hadn't a clue what each other was up to.
I've not read the twitter thread but the same claim was made by the incoming Cameron government, and it soon became apparent that ministers hadn't a clue what each other was up to.
Raw data isn't information. People observed the sun rise for hundreds of thousands of years, but it's only recently that they realised that we go around it, not vice-versa. It is possible to observe something and register it, but simply not note its importance. Einstein (?) once said that the definition of genius is to notice the obvious thing that everybody else has overlooked...
Yes, got that. Makes sense. But - oh god I'm getting how I get sometimes - it does not quite work here. Or not obviously, anyway.
Poster said they had been 'observing the decline of civilization' for 20 years but been 'conscious of it' for just the last 2.
Now, if you begin observing something at a point in time (1999) it means that before this you were not observing it. And you cannot go from not observing to observing (the thing) without being conscious of starting to observe it. Observing is more active than seeing. You can see without observing but not the reverse Therefore the 'becoming conscious' of it cannot be delayed until 2017.
Only way I can reconcile is as follows -
Poster realized in 2017 that something he had been both observing and de facto conscious of since 1999 but struggling to understand and articulate could (IHO) be accurately described as "the decline of civilization". And that having realized this (perhaps due to a banana falling behind the sofa) his observation and consciousness of the phenomenon has become ever clearer over the 2 years since.
That works, I think. So, OK, let's assume that was what was meant.
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
Name anything an MP does that a labourer or shop worker , etc could not do.
Scrutinising legislation, especially on more complex matters, is not an easy task
Distinguishing an MP who is actually scrutinising legislation, from one who is wondering what to have for lunch or fantasising about shagging his secretary, is even harder.
The Tory party is trying to court the votes of the Northern Working Class yet @HYUFD is telling them their degree level apprenticeship in association with Newcastle College is worthless and that they should halt any ambition to become an MP as they are clearly not elite enough and never will be.
No and it will help improve their earning power but the average working class northener is more interested in delivering Brexit and policies that work for them than becoming an MP and if their kids went to a Russell Group university to study science most would sensibly prefer them to be medics or work in industry than become MPs
So northern brexit voters shouldn’t become MPs, they should leave it up to people from the Home Counties, who clearly know more then them. Got it.
No but we should aim to have mainly well educated MPs I would have thought, so if they go from a northern town to a Russell Group university and get a good job by all means they could consider it, though if they get a very well paid job many may think they prefer to stick with that anyway
Name anything an MP does that a labourer or shop worker , etc could not do.
Claim thousands of pounds in expenses. Get school holidays off. Eat fine food in a subsidised restaurant. Get pissed at work? It's a long list.
I've not read the twitter thread but the same claim was made by the incoming Cameron government, and it soon became apparent that ministers hadn't a clue what each other was up to.
“If the Scottish government requested that they hold a second referendum on Scottish independence in the next 5 years, do you think the UK Government should accept or refuse that request?” (net allow)
London +27 Scotland +12 South of England +10 N Ireland +7 Wales +2 Midlands +2 North of England +1
“If the Scottish government requested that they hold a second referendum on Scottish independence in the next 5 years, do you think the UK Government should accept or refuse that request?” (net allow)
London +27 Scotland +12 South of England +10 N Ireland +7 Wales +2 Midlands +2 North of England +1
Regarding the salary thing, it's worth noting that there's a reason most other countries don't do it like that: simply, a 22 year old computer science graduate earning £27,000/year is more likely to contribute positively to the Exchequor over his lifetime than a 56 year old accountant earning £75,000.
The rule of law is deteriorating, and all the signs are that it will continue to do. This is part of a broader problem, which is the decline of civilisation. I have been observing this for the past 20 years, but only became conscious of it in the last 2. The current government are the latest variants of a liberal elite who are trying to arrest the decline of civilisation by pandering to the mob. This is a story that rarely ends well, as history attests.
Perhaps being dense - it's not unknown - but this sounds slightly odd.
If you started to observe something in 1999 but only became conscious of it in 2017, what were you looking at in, say, 2006?
It implies that you were kind of staring into space.
Raw data isn't information. People observed the sun rise for hundreds of thousands of years, but it's only recently that they realised that we go around it, not vice-versa. It is possible to observe something and register it, but simply not note its importance. Einstein (?) once said that the definition of genius is to notice the obvious thing that everybody else has overlooked...
Shaw wrote that a talented man hits targets others cannot hit. A genius hits targets others cannot see....
Thanks to Cyclefree for another withering piece on the state of affairs. I was reasonably involved in this as an MP - toured the local prison, had a detailed briefing on another, and help write the Justice Select Committee paper on the relative costs and benefits of different kinds of investment in the justice system, based on international experien ce - for what it's worth the thing I'm most proud of doing in my 13 years in the Commons.
Simulating a Tory of the old-fashioned "spend wisely" kind for a moment (before the current team adopted mock-Keynesian economics), which of the problems that Cyclefree identifies would she (or others) give priority to allocating money for? I appreciate that some just need changes in attitude, but others really require substantial sums. Would there be anything we should give up on (e.g. never imprison anyone for less than a year)?
IMO short sentences are pointless. So I would give up on those. There was some good work on this being done by David Gauke, before he resigned. I would also do more in the rehabilitation field: so many offenders come from care homes, are illiterate etc. Spending money teaching them skills is a worthwhile investment.
There is much more scope for efficiencies in the court process, which would also help. But if you want a proper justice system, you need to pay for it. If you get caught up in the criminal system, you are effectively dependant on the kindness of others. It is grotesque and makes a mockery of the rule of law.
And thanks for the Select Committee report. I will read it with interest.
“If the Scottish government requested that they hold a second referendum on Scottish independence in the next 5 years, do you think the UK Government should accept or refuse that request?” (net allow)
London +27 Scotland +12 South of England +10 N Ireland +7 Wales +2 Midlands +2 North of England +1
“If the Scottish government requested that they hold a second referendum on Scottish independence in the next 5 years, do you think the UK Government should accept or refuse that request?” (net allow)
London +27 Scotland +12 South of England +10 N Ireland +7 Wales +2 Midlands +2 North of England +1
John McDonnell seems to be truly in tune with public opinion on this issue.
Astonishing that more London voters for allowing indyref2 than Scottish voters, shows how much diehard Remainers think breaking up the Union should be used to punish Leavers
But every part of the UK favours allowing indyref2. Does that mean the UK is now majority 'diehard Remainers'?
“If the Scottish government requested that they hold a second referendum on Scottish independence in the next 5 years, do you think the UK Government should accept or refuse that request?” (net allow)
London +27 Scotland +12 South of England +10 N Ireland +7 Wales +2 Midlands +2 North of England +1
"For 6 years from 2012 to 2018, no lawyer was deemed worthy to be Minister of Justice, the choice instead falling on Chris Grayling and Liz Truss"
Well, gosh!
Have you ever looked at the Ministers for Science?
Rummaging through the appointments of the Labour & Tory & Coalition even SNP Govts, I do not think there has EVER been a Minister for Science who has any training in science.
Training in Modern History or PPE or Politics or Sociology, yes.
Training in Science, no.
In Wales, we have Dim Kirsty as Minister for Science. She has a degree in American Studies. In Scotland, Richard Lochhead has a degree in politics. In England, Jo Johnson has a degree in Modern History.
Have we many MP's with science degrees? I recall one Margaret Thatcher, but she gave up science to become a barrister.
I guess that is the point.
The MPs are grossly unrepresentative. Of course, this is often discussed in terms of gender or ethnicity, but there are also many other & equally important ways that the MPs are grossly unrepresentative.
Lawyers & barristers in general are over-represented in Parliament, so I am not hugely sympathetic to Cyclefree's grumble.
A Minister for Science could be in the House of Lords, rather than Commons, and so parties could appoint trained scientists by ennobling them.
In my opinion, the Secretary of State for Energy & Climate Change should also be a trained scientist.
Baron (Peter) Lilley has a degree in physics.
So two of the few politicians on record as being sceptical of the the "official line" on climate change and energy policy are scientists... (Stringer & Lilley) Small sample admittedly!
Science covers a multitude of subjects, just having a degree in physics doesn't make you an expert in Climate Change.
Comments
Interesting how 2 of the above had other strings to their bow. Snow a novelist, Cox a musician. Hawking just the physics.
Mathematics Professor at the Sorbonne, his work on integrability is famous. Then French Prime Minister.
I’d be mortally offended if I were to be compared to Trump. The man has no concept of right and wrong.
President of Ireland Éamon de Valera
French prime minister Paul Painlevé
Grenadian prime minister Keith Mitchell
Central African prime minister Faustin-Archange Touadéra
Burmese prime minister in exile Sein Win
Iraqi deputy prime minister Ahmed Chalabi
Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak
Polish prime minister Kazimierz Bartel
Italian prime minister Luigi Federico Menabrea
Lebanese opposition politician Muhammad Baydoun
Pakistani politician Taj Haider
de Valera got as far as postgraduate study, apparently.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmselect/cmjust/94/9402.htm
Simulating a Tory of the old-fashioned "spend wisely" kind for a moment (before the current team adopted mock-Keynesian economics), which of the problems that Cyclefree identifies would she (or others) give priority to allocating money for? I appreciate that some just need changes in attitude, but others really require substantial sums. Would there be anything we should give up on (e.g. never imprison anyone for less than a year)?
It defines Metropolitan elite better than anything else.
Kelvin was very active in the Conservative & Unionist party, but he was never an MP. He was knighted for his political activities (not his scientific work).
Newton had a highly discreditable political career as Master of the Mint.
(net allow)
London +27
Scotland +12
South of England +10
N Ireland +7
Wales +2
Midlands +2
North of England +1
UK +9
https://www.opinium.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/VI-08-08-19-Tables.xlsx
John McDonnell seems to be truly in tune with public opinion on this issue.
Plus the next Holyrood election is only 2 years away anyway let alone 5 years
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/11/cabinet-women-no-deal-brexit-caroline-lucas
Not so much "as a mother" as... "as a woman"
https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrJQ5xUSFBdGHwA0BVB4iA5;_ylu=X3oDMTEzdXBpM3FyBGNvbG8DaXIyBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDTU9VSzAxXzEEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1565571284/RO=10/RU=https://www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/1MPs_educational_backgrounds_2010_A.pdf/RK=2/RS=CwD54xv6fxfmmCYiCQtzTjuqekU-
What could go wrong?
I did however lose in the Arsenal match. I thought Newcastle were going toe-to-toe with them and got on at what I thought of as value 3/1
Like it did under Thatcher. Or Elizabeth I. Or when Olympias was in charge of Macedon.
- Sherlock Holmes.
Speaking of physics, consider the following list:
Photon, electron, positron, neutron, moron.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristarchus_of_Samos
“The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes.”
- Sherlock Holmes
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7483
I'll be betting thousands on a Yes vote for Independence Insurance.
Poster said they had been 'observing the decline of civilization' for 20 years but been 'conscious of it' for just the last 2.
Now, if you begin observing something at a point in time (1999) it means that before this you were not observing it. And you cannot go from not observing to observing (the thing) without being conscious of starting to observe it. Observing is more active than seeing. You can see without observing but not the reverse Therefore the 'becoming conscious' of it cannot be delayed until 2017.
Only way I can reconcile is as follows -
Poster realized in 2017 that something he had been both observing and de facto conscious of since 1999 but struggling to understand and articulate could (IHO) be accurately described as "the decline of civilization". And that having realized this (perhaps due to a banana falling behind the sofa) his observation and consciousness of the phenomenon has become ever clearer over the 2 years since.
That works, I think. So, OK, let's assume that was what was meant.
There is much more scope for efficiencies in the court process, which would also help. But if you want a proper justice system, you need to pay for it. If you get caught up in the criminal system, you are effectively dependant on the kindness of others. It is grotesque and makes a mockery of the rule of law.
And thanks for the Select Committee report. I will read it with interest.
Still, I took out all the bits in Latin especially for you. I didn't want to spoil your fun.
In fact, try to stop him.
My roots!
Not the strongest now - but not quite dead.