The disingenuous argument that Remainers are responsible for the failure of Brexit was, I'm afraid, totally predictable.
It's been running since the day of the vote.
The people that argued against it, campaigned against it, voted against it, are to blame for it...
So by voting for Article 50 and then voting against the soft Brexit Deal that was on the table is consistent with having no responsibility.?
The only person responsible for leaving with no deal is Johnson. It is in his powers to seek an extension in order pursue alternative strategies, an election or referendum or even putting forward a draft of what he wants as a deal. He could also revoke A 50 there is nothing stopping him doing any of those things. Now it may be electorally difficult for him and his party but that’s a different issue. If we leave no deal then ABDP Johnson will be 100% to blame or be 100% able to claim the credit if it goes swimmingly well.
So the indicative votes when Parliament had a chance to vote for something it wanted, how did they work out? Why are you letting MPs playing silly political games off the hook. The country voted to leave and Parliament has failed to implement that vote.
Does any leaver truly expect business investment to increase post a no deal Brexit until we start signing trade deals with key partners and especially Europe. It will be more of the same but just worse. The pound will fall further and Scotland will become more keen to leave the union. In summary it is just another stepping stone on the way to the bottom.
What was misunderstood from the forecasts of what would follow the vote itself was the impact of animal spirits. Half the country woke up in June 2016 in a cracking mood and their economics actions reflected this. The same very well may happen again in redux, given that a good chunk of the 48% just want to move on with their lives.
There have been ever hysterical apocalyptic visions of mutton volcanoes, Zimbabwe style medicine shortages and the roads in Kent turning into the world’s largest steel snake. When it’s not as bad as all that, we may well find confidence recovers quite quickly. FDI will be attracted by the cheap sterling price. And this is without the tax cut and spending splurge planned by the government (including not least the positive impact to disposable incomes from a temporary period of across the board zero tariffs).
But I don’t know. And neither do you. That’s the very nature of uncertainty.
'Not as bad as all that' is not much of a sales pitch, is it?
Remaining in the EU would also have been 'not as bad as all that' and without the prospect of the kind of apocalyptic visions in your parody.
Where's the sense in it?
I saw (and still do) staying in differently to you. That’s fine, sensible people often disagree on things, especially those things that are hard to foresee or have different winners/losers.
The combination of the unstable structure of the Eurozone, the burgeoning Target 2 imbalances and the sort of government that Italy now has, scares the life out of me. I’d far rather the Uk reorientates it’s trade elsewhere while it can. Further, I doubt the above can ultimately be fixed without full political integom around the world that are penalised from moving to the UK so that those from white Christian countries can be prioritised.
But these are tired arguments now and don’t really matter.
They do matter, and they reflect many of the concerns I had which nearly caused me to vote for Leave.
The shambles that followed the referendum result has however done nothing to convince me that I wrong to vote Remain. Rather the opposite. The failure of Project Leave has been a failure to convince the public that it can deliver a sensible outcome along the lines of its campaign promises.
You are surprised people like me have the gravest misgivings?
"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
A good article about quite a strong movement, and one that is going to be a fixture after Brexit still. I never expected hundreds of thousands of people to March in Britain proudly waving the EU flag as a result of Brexit, but they are.
Not so long ago these people would have been core Tory voters. I cannot see that happening again.
I think they're more the types of people in urban villa constituencies, who were still voting Conservative in 1979, but gradually became hostile towards Thatcherism.
Hostile to Conservatism generally.
Despite Cameron targeting such voters the Conservative performance in middle class urban constituencies was poor in 2010 and worse in 2015.
Mr. Nichomar, whilst I agree Johnson will end up with all the blame/credit if we depart without a deal, it's incorrect to say he's the only person responsible. If Parliament had passed May's deal, we'd be leaving that way.
He is in control now if he still has control on 31/10 and chooses to no deal then it’s his responsibility 100% as he would be the only one who could stop it.
Brexit is a shitshow, and those most covered in the ordure are the ones most responsible. Why would anybody think different?
To salve their conscience at having voted for it...
Seriously, Scott I really do think most of us have a problem admitting mistakes.
As I said, I nearly voted Leave. In hindsight, I'm glad I didn't because I would have felt embarrassed at the fiasco that followed. I'd like to think I would have been man enough to admit the error, but who knows?
I voted for Boris Johnson once. Not easy to own up to that litte misjudgement.
Me too. No regrets.
Boris was absolutely the right choice for the elected office at the time.
Brexit is a shitshow, and those most covered in the ordure are the ones most responsible. Why would anybody think different?
To salve their conscience at having voted for it...
Seriously, Scott I really do think most of us have a problem admitting mistakes.
As I said, I nearly voted Leave. In hindsight, I'm glad I didn't because I would have felt embarrassed at the fiasco that followed. I'd like to think I would have been man enough to admit the error, but who knows?
I voted for Boris Johnson once. Not easy to own up to that litte misjudgement.
Me too. No regrets.
Boris was absolutely the right choice for the elected office at the time.
He was pro-Europe and pro-Business at the time, Casino, or so he said.
Brexit: It really is as simple as delivering on a democratic mandate. There are no ifs or buts. How much clearer could the instruction be?
Meeks; You are fighting against democracy. You have so much more to lose than you have to gain. If you and the other remainders fight with Democracy then who knows.
There is no mandate for no deal Brexit. I have no idea how you can imagine that there is.
Then you are lacking in imagination
There was a vote to leave
It is a reasonable assumption that most believed a deal was likely.
But the instruction was to leave. There was no caveat saying “but only if you negotiate a deal”
Was that how the referendum campaign was fought by Leave, what they argued for?
Leave was the vote. No deal is the only way we can leave if we can't get a deal through Parliament, and the Remainers were largely responsible for that failure.
That's not true. The UK could also leave by holding a border poll resulting in the dissolution of the UK.
All roads now lead to the end of the UK. We would be wise to choose the least disruptive.
That's tosh, utter tosh
No Deal = quick disorderly break up of the UK Deal = slow orderly break up of the UK Revocation = polarisation of UK politics along nationalist lines leading to the break up of the UK
The UK is done.
Dream on
It is done. Cracks that were always there have been widened by Brexit. Well, not actually Brexit, but the totally amateur and incompetent way it has been handled. If we go out No Deal, I can't see Scotland voting to stay with us if English Westminster grants them another referendum. We're heading for a long stint of wankiness.
It's not done. But if South Sudan mk 2 does appear on England's doorstep I agree it will be wanky.
Up off your belly Briskin, impossible we can do any worse than what Westminster does at present. People like you need to get a backbone rather than wetting yourself to stay sucking at the teat.
Brexit is a shitshow, and those most covered in the ordure are the ones most responsible. Why would anybody think different?
To salve their conscience at having voted for it...
Seriously, Scott I really do think most of us have a problem admitting mistakes.
As I said, I nearly voted Leave. In hindsight, I'm glad I didn't because I would have felt embarrassed at the fiasco that followed. I'd like to think I would have been man enough to admit the error, but who knows?
I voted for Boris Johnson once. Not easy to own up to that litte misjudgement.
Me too. No regrets.
Boris was absolutely the right choice for the elected office at the time.
Brexit is a shitshow, and those most covered in the ordure are the ones most responsible. Why would anybody think different?
To salve their conscience at having voted for it...
Seriously, Scott I really do think most of us have a problem admitting mistakes.
As I said, I nearly voted Leave. In hindsight, I'm glad I didn't because I would have felt embarrassed at the fiasco that followed. I'd like to think I would have been man enough to admit the error, but who knows?
I voted for Boris Johnson once. Not easy to own up to that litte misjudgement.
Me too. No regrets.
Boris was absolutely the right choice for the elected office at the time.
He was pro-Europe and pro-Business at the time, Casino, or so he said.
"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
A good article about quite a strong movement, and one that is going to be a fixture after Brexit still. I never expected hundreds of thousands of people to March in Britain proudly waving the EU flag as a result of Brexit, but they are.
Not so long ago these people would have been core Tory voters. I cannot see that happening again.
I think they're more the types of people in urban villa constituencies, who were still voting Conservative in 1979, but gradually became hostile towards Thatcherism.
A bit like being photographed with Ribbentrop. Bolton is every bit as evil.
Yep. And you voted for this.
People can hardly be said to vote for every awful thing that might arise from a consequence of one of their actions which may or may not have been reasonable. I'm all for people not escaping that they can help cause that which they claim to hate, it's the main reason the bleating of so many mps who kept no deal on the table and cry about it being a risk irritates me do much, but there are limits.
"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
A good article about quite a strong movement, and one that is going to be a fixture after Brexit still. I never expected hundreds of thousands of people to March in Britain proudly waving the EU flag as a result of Brexit, but they are.
Not so long ago these people would have been core Tory voters. I cannot see that happening again.
I think they're more the types of people in urban villa constituencies, who were still voting Conservative in 1979, but gradually became hostile towards Thatcherism.
Where they go, it seems TSE, Nabavi, David Herdson and Big G follow (and myself, who voted Tory in every election until 2017).
It's been a long time coming. Back in 1959, around 80% of AB voters supported the Conservatives, compared to 45% in 2017.
Brexit is a shitshow, and those most covered in the ordure are the ones most responsible. Why would anybody think different?
To salve their conscience at having voted for it...
Seriously, Scott I really do think most of us have a problem admitting mistakes.
As I said, I nearly voted Leave. In hindsight, I'm glad I didn't because I would have felt embarrassed at the fiasco that followed. I'd like to think I would have been man enough to admit the error, but who knows?
I voted for Boris Johnson once. Not easy to own up to that litte misjudgement.
Me too. No regrets.
Boris was absolutely the right choice for the elected office at the time.
Brexit is a shitshow, and those most covered in the ordure are the ones most responsible. Why would anybody think different?
To salve their conscience at having voted for it...
Seriously, Scott I really do think most of us have a problem admitting mistakes.
As I said, I nearly voted Leave. In hindsight, I'm glad I didn't because I would have felt embarrassed at the fiasco that followed. I'd like to think I would have been man enough to admit the error, but who knows?
I voted for Boris Johnson once. Not easy to own up to that litte misjudgement.
Me too. No regrets.
Boris was absolutely the right choice for the elected office at the time.
He was pro-Europe and pro-Business at the time, Casino, or so he said.
We bought it. We were wrong.
In Feb 2016 before the referendum he wrote in a Telegraph article that to leave the EU would be to waste at least three years of political energy when we should really be concentrating on issues people care about. At least he was right on that observation.
"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
A good article about quite a strong movement, and one that is going to be a fixture after Brexit still. I never expected hundreds of thousands of people to March in Britain proudly waving the EU flag as a result of Brexit, but they are.
Not so long ago these people would have been core Tory voters. I cannot see that happening again.
I think they're more the types of people in urban villa constituencies, who were still voting Conservative in 1979, but gradually became hostile towards Thatcherism.
What on earth is an urban villa constituency?
Places like Streatham, Bristol West, Leeds NE, Glasgow Hillhead, Manchester Withington.
"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
A good article about quite a strong movement, and one that is going to be a fixture after Brexit still. I never expected hundreds of thousands of people to March in Britain proudly waving the EU flag as a result of Brexit, but they are.
Not so long ago these people would have been core Tory voters. I cannot see that happening again.
I think they're more the types of people in urban villa constituencies, who were still voting Conservative in 1979, but gradually became hostile towards Thatcherism.
Where they go, it seems TSE, Nabavi, David Herdson and Big G follow (and myself, who voted Tory in every election until 2017).
It's been a long time coming. Back in 1959, around 80% of AB voters supported the Conservatives, compared to 45% in 2017.
It would be interesting to break that change down further geographically.
I expect that fall is even more extreme in big urban areas.
So nothing's got a mandate. Revoke certainly doesn't, the deal's been rejected at least twice, m to a mandate than any alternative course of action. I'm still not in favour of it.
Exactly. Nothing has a mandate.
So a new mandate is needed.
Nope. We were asked a simple question: leave or remain. We voted to leave. How ey just need to be honest rather than dishonest. I appreciate that is a big ask.
Yeah, that. If we end up with No Deal, it'll be because parliament refused to implement anything else. The vast majority of those responsible are in favour of Remain.
If Britain ends up with no deal it will be because the Conservative party chose a leader who sabotaged the deal on the table as an extremist Leaver and then followed a no deal path. As always, Leavers are relentless in their attempts to avoid responsibility.
Bojo will have chosen no deal, theres no getting away from that and to my mind for too many leavers have chosen to accept no deal despite previously thinking it unacceptable, but that doesnt mean people who claimed to be willing to do anything to stop no deal are not liars when their actions show they are content to risk no deal so long as they get a chance to win their preferred option.
No deal being a legal default doesnt mean there has not been a choice to go down that route now, which I abhor, but while blame can be spread around and be more on one than another it doesnt make some blameless.
Your own logic repeatedly blaming people for supporting things which then lead to something they dont like is the same eg any leavers are to blame even if they do not want no deal leave. Ergo if someone backs remain and does not want no deal leave but their actions contributed to the situation now then they share some measure of blame.
If we want to interpret Leave as a reductive, we voted to Leave, simple as, and thus justify No Deal, then it is instructive to consider how else we might apply this reductivism on an equivalent basis..
Firstly, the mandate gave no timescale. If we have cocked up A50 and can revoke, nothing in the mandate dictates we have to Brexit on this pass. Revocation and retrenchment is as valid a step as No Deal on the road to Brexit if you are truly reductivist.
Secondly, if we can dismiss all those Leave campaign promises about getting a great deal, we can also dismiss Cameron's promise to deliver Brexit off the back of the referendum, since the reductivist essence of the vote is that it was Advisory.
I am not a reductivist, but if I were making such arguments for No Deal, I should also be accepting the above.
To sum it up, a reductisist argument leads to a position whereby Might is Right. If the A50 anti May deal anti No Dealers can avoid No Deal all good, if the ERG and Boris government can avoid losing control of the process and hold fast to No Deal Brexit, then equally good to the reductivist. I did a blame list a few months ago that gave ERG higher culpability for Remain and A50ers more culpability for No Deal. Might is Right is sort of the same thing from the other side.
"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
A good article about quite a strong movement, and one that is going to be a fixture after Brexit still. I never expected hundreds of thousands of people to March in Britain proudly waving the EU flag as a result of Brexit, but they are.
Not so long ago these people would have been core Tory voters. I cannot see that happening again.
I think they're more the types of people in urban villa constituencies, who were still voting Conservative in 1979, but gradually became hostile towards Thatcherism.
What on earth is an urban villa constituency?
Places like Streatham, Bristol West, Leeds NE, Glasgow Hillhead, Manchester Withington.
For me the Conservative failure to win Birmingham Edgbaston revealed the failure of the Cameron Project.
@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.
Like many a Remainer, I nearly voted Leave because I wasn't happy with many aspects of the EU.
After the vote, I wasn't unduly disturbed because I assumed Leavers would have some kind of coherent plan which they would implement. I imagined, not unreasonably, that this plan would reflect the aims and promises of their referendum campaign.
You know the rest. Blame can rightly be apportioned far and wide, but it is the Government which has the power and therefore the responsibility to see these things through in the best interests of the Country.
Do you really think that is what we have witnessed?
If No Deal is good for the Country, put it to the electorate in a vote. It is NOT what a majority voted for last time, but if a majority vote for it now, no problem.
As a Remainer, I felt similarly. May negitiated a deal that mitigated most the damage amd filled the referendum mandate. That was the government's duty. It is parliament that also had the power and responsibility to do things in the best interest of the country. They instead played politics, invoking A50 and blocking the deal. They carry as much blame as the new PM for this.
Politicians in “playing politics” shocker.
Coming up later in the programme, we investigate the scandal of footballers “playing football”.
@moonshine you’re blaming Remainers for no deal because they did not vote for a hard brexit?
It begs belief...
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.
But that is nonsense. If Leavers has supported the deal, it would have passed Parliament. They opposed it and now seek to impose an extreme version of Brexit with no mandate.
The actions of Remainers do not create a mandate for Leavers. Stop making false equivalences.
It is not a false equivalency. It is a genuine equivalency. If Remainers had supported the deal, it would have passed parliament. Article 50 had a mandate and was rightly voted for. A deal had a mandate and was wrongly voted against. That is why we find ourselves where we are. The only MPs that did the right thing were May, Hammond, most Tory Remainers, some Tory Leavers and a minority of Labour MPs. The person who has spoken most sense on all this is Caroline Flint.
It looks to me as if leavers are starting to get scared about the consequences of what they have unleashed!
I voted Remain and want to Rejoin!
Then you’re a troll.
Ah, we have got to the purge the moderates phase.
No, I am just reading your posts. We seem to have a batch of new accounts on here that appeared around the same time who are trying to troll the discussion.
There seem to be a good few dodgy newcomers to be sure.
Leavers are relentless in their attempts to evade responsibility. If no deal goes horribly wrong, I can guarantee now that somehow it will be Remainers’ fault.
It is amazing how much people on both sides sit in glass houses while throwing stones. You bend over backwards blamimg Leavers, but do everything you can to deny responsibility for Remain MPs that voted to invoke A50 and then against a deal.
I’ve not commented on that either way. Stop putting words into my mouth.
Right now extremist Leavers control the executive. Looking beyond the extremists in government is the kind of false equivalence that one comes to expect from concern trolls.
And Remainers control parliament, which had been just as important in the power struggle. But there you go again. There is always a reason to blame Leavers but always a reason to excuse Remainers. Leavers do the same thing the other way. Both sides act like children caught in a fight, and we all suffer from it.
But that is nonsense. If Leavers has supported the deal, it would have passed Parliament. They opposed it and now seek to impose an extreme version of Brexit with no mandate.
The actions of Remainers do not create a mandate for Leavers. Stop making false equivalences.
Simply not true, Parliament is 70% remian
Look at the third meaningful vote and move dissident Leavers, including the DUP, from one column to the other. This is simply a point of fact.
You can say exactly the same about Remainers that voted for Article 50. Funny how you cherrypick your facts.
Stop traducing me. You continue to misrepresent what I am saying.
I have simply not commented on Remain MPs. For the very good reason that they are a sideshow.
There are two types of MPs: Those who voted for the deal and those who didn't. It's as simple as that, in my opinion.
If the MPs don't like what the executive is doing, they should replace the executive with one closer to their tastes.
Mr. Punter, ironically, I suspect Johnson is pro-EU. He's just more egocentric, and willing to throw other ideas/loyalties under the bus (ahem) if it serves the great ambition.
Anyway, we'll see if anything actually develops. Given the last few years, moaning, dither, and backfiring cunning plans (cf Grieve) seem entirely likely.
Mr. Gate, it's an empty question at the moment, though.
Politicians are happy to bleat they're against everything possible but lack the courage or the wit to actually put forward something else. So we have becalmed politics, a jester leading one party and a Communist the other.
Yes. But we may finally be at the point where inaction and being against everything simply is not possible, or that inaction itself now leads to action. So lack of courage or wit (some have one and not the other) may finally be overcome.
I doubt it will be pleasant, and the cries of traitor will be bitter no matter what happens, but at least the next phase will have started, be it no deal, an election or revoke.
"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
A good article about quite a strong movement, and one that is going to be a fixture after Brexit still. I never expected hundreds of thousands of people to March in Britain proudly waving the EU flag as a result of Brexit, but they are.
Not so long ago these people would have been core Tory voters. I cannot see that happening again.
I think they're more the types of people in urban villa constituencies, who were still voting Conservative in 1979, but gradually became hostile towards Thatcherism.
Where they go, it seems TSE, Nabavi, David Herdson and Big G follow (and myself, who voted Tory in every election until 2017).
It's been a long time coming. Back in 1959, around 80% of AB voters supported the Conservatives, compared to 45% in 2017.
It would be interesting to break that change down further geographically.
I expect that fall is even more extreme in big urban areas.
That's true. Some of the Conservatives' very weakest seats are urban constituencies that were once safe for them. I think that Conservative support among AB voters has held up far better in rural areas and small to medium-sized towns.
"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
A good article about quite a strong movement, and one that is going to be a fixture after Brexit still. I never expected hundreds of thousands of people to March in Britain proudly waving the EU flag as a result of Brexit, but they are.
Not so long ago these people would have been core Tory voters. I cannot see that happening again.
I think they're more the types of people in urban villa constituencies, who were still voting Conservative in 1979, but gradually became hostile towards Thatcherism.
What on earth is an urban villa constituency?
Just some made up bollox for a stupid Tory to try and pretend he is not thick as mince but really some super intelligent being that has been traduced. It is a poor excuse for a loser.
"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
A good article about quite a strong movement, and one that is going to be a fixture after Brexit still. I never expected hundreds of thousands of people to March in Britain proudly waving the EU flag as a result of Brexit, but they are.
Not so long ago these people would have been core Tory voters. I cannot see that happening again.
I think they're more the types of people in urban villa constituencies, who were still voting Conservative in 1979, but gradually became hostile towards Thatcherism.
Where they go, it seems TSE, Nabavi, David Herdson and Big G follow (and myself, who voted Tory in every election until 2017).
It's been a long time coming. Back in 1959, around 80% of AB voters supported the Conservatives, compared to 45% in 2017.
It would be interesting to break that change down further geographically.
I expect that fall is even more extreme in big urban areas.
If we want to interpret Leave as a reductive, we voted to Leave, simple as, and thus justify No Deal, then it is instructive to consider how else we might apply this reductivism on an equivalent basis..
Firstly, the mandate gave no timescale. If we have cocked up A50 and can revoke, nothing in the mandate dictates we have to Brexit on this pass. Revocation and retrenchment is as valid a step as No Deal on the road to Brexit if you are truly reductivist.
Secondly, if we can dismiss all those Leave campaign promises about getting a great deal, we can also dismiss Cameron's promise to deliver Brexit off the back of the referendum, since the reductivist essence of the vote is that it was Advisory.
I am not a reductivist, but if I were making such arguments for No Deal, I should also be accepting the above.
To sum it up, a reductisist argument leads to a position whereby Might is Right. If the A50 anti May deal anti No Dealers can avoid No Deal all good, if the ERG and Boris government can avoid losing control of the process and hold fast to No Deal Brexit, then equally good to the reductivist. I did a blame list a few months ago that gave ERG higher culpability for Remain and A50ers more culpability for No Deal. Might is Right is sort of the same thing from the other side.
Fanaticism within the Conservative party of both the Baker and Grieve varieties gets the most culpability IMO.
Thrt need to look in a mirror. We all know the no dealers didn't want us to leave on time, they voted so over and over. Hammond and others being obstructive, and remainer mps resisting, doesn't change how no dealers voted over and over. This isn't a tv show they cannot just retcon things, though given how the WA most Tory mps voted for is spoken of now they try hard to do so.
Brexit is a shitshow, and those most covered in the ordure are the ones most responsible. Why would anybody think different?
To salve their conscience at having voted for it...
Seriously, Scott I really do think most of us have a problem admitting mistakes.
As I said, I nearly voted Leave. In hindsight, I'm glad I didn't because I would have felt embarrassed at the fiasco that followed. I'd like to think I would have been man enough to admit the error, but who knows?
I voted for Boris Johnson once. Not easy to own up to that litte misjudgement.
Me too. No regrets.
Boris was absolutely the right choice for the elected office at the time.
Brexit is a shitshow, and those most covered in the ordure are the ones most responsible. Why would anybody think different?
To salve their conscience at having voted for it...
Seriously, Scott I really do think most of us have a problem admitting mistakes.
As I said, I nearly voted Leave. In hindsight, I'm glad I didn't because I would have felt embarrassed at the fiasco that followed. I'd like to think I would have been man enough to admit the error, but who knows?
I voted for Boris Johnson once. Not easy to own up to that litte misjudgement.
Me too. No regrets.
Boris was absolutely the right choice for the elected office at the time.
He was pro-Europe and pro-Business at the time, Casino, or so he said.
We bought it. We were wrong.
His position on Europe would have had no bearing on my vote in 2012 and didn’t. In fact, if anything, being outwardly pro EU would have made me less likely to vote for him.
I voted for him due to his policies on tax, transport, housing and policing - and general administrative competence and promotion of London - which were much better than those preferred by Ken.
"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
A good article about quite a strong movement, and one that is going to be a fixture after Brexit still. I never expected hundreds of thousands of people to March in Britain proudly waving the EU flag as a result of Brexit, but they are.
Not so long ago these people would have been core Tory voters. I cannot see that happening again.
I think they're more the types of people in urban villa constituencies, who were still voting Conservative in 1979, but gradually became hostile towards Thatcherism.
Where they go, it seems TSE, Nabavi, David Herdson and Big G follow (and myself, who voted Tory in every election until 2017).
It's been a long time coming. Back in 1959, around 80% of AB voters supported the Conservatives, compared to 45% in 2017.
It would be interesting to break that change down further geographically.
I expect that fall is even more extreme in big urban areas.
That's true. Some of the Conservatives' very weakest seats are urban constituencies that were once safe for them. I think that Conservative support among AB voters has held up far better in rural areas and small to medium-sized towns.
It’s probably a class thing.
Up to the 1970s the Liberals really didn’t feature meaningfully on the national stage and Labour was very heavily a working class and heavy industry / union dominated party.
If you were opposed to that for a whole multitude of reasons you voted Conservative without a second thought.
"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
A good article about quite a strong movement, and one that is going to be a fixture after Brexit still. I never expected hundreds of thousands of people to March in Britain proudly waving the EU flag as a result of Brexit, but they are.
Not so long ago these people would have been core Tory voters. I cannot see that happening again.
I think they're more the types of people in urban villa constituencies, who were still voting Conservative in 1979, but gradually became hostile towards Thatcherism.
Where they go, it seems TSE, Nabavi, David Herdson and Big G follow (and myself, who voted Tory in every election until 2017).
It's been a long time coming. Back in 1959, around 80% of AB voters supported the Conservatives, compared to 45% in 2017.
It would be interesting to break that change down further geographically.
I expect that fall is even more extreme in big urban areas.
Suburban south Liverpool elected conservatives
Slums in Liverpool elected Conservatives in the 1950s thanks to the working class orange unionist vote.
Its one of the few places in England and Wales where working class voters have trended leftwards since then.
"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
A good article about quite a strong movement, and one that is going to be a fixture after Brexit still. I never expected hundreds of thousands of people to March in Britain proudly waving the EU flag as a result of Brexit, but they are.
Not so long ago these people would have been core Tory voters. I cannot see that happening again.
I think they're more the types of people in urban villa constituencies, who were still voting Conservative in 1979, but gradually became hostile towards Thatcherism.
Where they go, it seems TSE, Nabavi, David Herdson and Big G follow (and myself, who voted Tory in every election until 2017).
It's been a long time coming. Back in 1959, around 80% of AB voters supported the Conservatives, compared to 45% in 2017.
It would be interesting to break that change down further geographically.
I expect that fall is even more extreme in big urban areas.
That's true. Some of the Conservatives' very weakest seats are urban constituencies that were once safe for them. I think that Conservative support among AB voters has held up far better in rural areas and small to medium-sized towns.
It’s probably a class thing.
Up to the 1970s the Liberals really didn’t feature meaningfully on the national stage and Labour was very heavily a working class and heavy industry / union dominated party.
If you were opposed to that for a whole multitude of reasons you voted Conservative without a second thought.
Its a widespread trend.
For example in 1976 the Republicans led in Dallas and Houston while still losing Texas as a whole:
Labour's Brexit was a much more practical proposition than May's very hard version. It was also a lot closer to what the public indicated they wanted by only voting very narrowly for leave. It would not really be very democratic of them to support an extreme version of Brexit.
The public wanted a fluffy, jobs-first, only slightly xenophobic unicorn, and that is what they should have.
"There is an antagonistic strain in remainism that is just as important as this idealism. “Europeanism has always been more anti-Eurosceptic than pro-European,” says Robert Saunders, a historian at Queen Mary University of London. And what fuels remainists, three years into the Brexit process, is anger. They hate the people you’d expect them to hate: Johnson, Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg, “Andrea Loathsome”, to use one of their schoolboyish nicknames. They hate them for their lies, and their “cakeism”, the Johnsonian insistence that we really can have our cake and eat it: that Britain could leave the single market, say, without losing any of the benefits of being part of it. (One remainist podcast is called Cake Watch.)"
A good article about quite a strong movement, and one that is going to be a fixture after Brexit still. I never expected hundreds of thousands of people to March in Britain proudly waving the EU flag as a result of Brexit, but they are.
Not so long ago these people would have been core Tory voters. I cannot see that happening again.
I think they're more the types of people in urban villa constituencies, who were still voting Conservative in 1979, but gradually became hostile towards Thatcherism.
Where they go, it seems TSE, Nabavi, David Herdson and Big G follow (and myself, who voted Tory in every election until 2017).
It's been a long time coming. Back in 1959, around 80% of AB voters supported the Conservatives, compared to 45% in 2017.
It would be interesting to break that change down further geographically.
I expect that fall is even more extreme in big urban areas.
Suburban south Liverpool elected conservatives
In 1885, Liverpool Scotland elected an Irish Nationalist, T. P. O'Connor. He was their MP until his death just after the 1929 election. He was unopposed between 1918 and 1929.
Comments
The shambles that followed the referendum result has however done nothing to convince me that I wrong to vote Remain. Rather the opposite. The failure of Project Leave has been a failure to convince the public that it can deliver a sensible outcome along the lines of its campaign promises.
You are surprised people like me have the gravest misgivings?
Despite Cameron targeting such voters the Conservative performance in middle class urban constituencies was poor in 2010 and worse in 2015.
We bought it. We were wrong.
https://twitter.com/SebastianEPayne/status/1161536045378351105?s=20
I expect that fall is even more extreme in big urban areas.
No deal being a legal default doesnt mean there has not been a choice to go down that route now, which I abhor, but while blame can be spread around and be more on one than another it doesnt make some blameless.
Your own logic repeatedly blaming people for supporting things which then lead to something they dont like is the same eg any leavers are to blame even if they do not want no deal leave. Ergo if someone backs remain and does not want no deal leave but their actions contributed to the situation now then they share some measure of blame.
Firstly, the mandate gave no timescale. If we have cocked up A50 and can revoke, nothing in the mandate dictates we have to Brexit on this pass. Revocation and retrenchment is as valid a step as No Deal on the road to Brexit if you are truly reductivist.
Secondly, if we can dismiss all those Leave campaign promises about getting a great deal, we can also dismiss Cameron's promise to deliver Brexit off the back of the referendum, since the reductivist essence of the vote is that it was Advisory.
I am not a reductivist, but if I were making such arguments for No Deal, I should also be accepting the above.
To sum it up, a reductisist argument leads to a position whereby Might is Right. If the A50 anti May deal anti No Dealers can avoid No Deal all good, if the ERG and Boris government can avoid losing control of the process and hold fast to No Deal Brexit, then equally good to the reductivist. I did a blame list a few months ago that gave ERG higher culpability for Remain and A50ers more culpability for No Deal. Might is Right is sort of the same thing from the other side.
Coming up later in the programme, we investigate the scandal of footballers “playing football”.
If the MPs don't like what the executive is doing, they should replace the executive with one closer to their tastes.
Anyway, we'll see if anything actually develops. Given the last few years, moaning, dither, and backfiring cunning plans (cf Grieve) seem entirely likely.
I doubt it will be pleasant, and the cries of traitor will be bitter no matter what happens, but at least the next phase will have started, be it no deal, an election or revoke.
I voted for him due to his policies on tax, transport, housing and policing - and general administrative competence and promotion of London - which were much better than those preferred by Ken.
Up to the 1970s the Liberals really didn’t feature meaningfully on the national stage and Labour was very heavily a working class and heavy industry / union dominated party.
If you were opposed to that for a whole multitude of reasons you voted Conservative without a second thought.
Its one of the few places in England and Wales where working class voters have trended leftwards since then.
For example in 1976 the Republicans led in Dallas and Houston while still losing Texas as a whole:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_United_States_presidential_election_in_Texas
The opposite happens now.