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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The whole Corbyn GNU story is based on a false premise – that

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited August 15 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The whole Corbyn GNU story is based on a false premise – that MP numbers are there for a confidence vote to be passed

The US President who took over after Kennedy was assassinated, Lyndon Baines Johnson, was famed for his sayings that wonderfully summed up political situations one of which was that the first rule of politics was that its “practitioners need to be able to count”.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • eekeek Posts: 5,520
    First.

    I expect however that by October things will be different / desperate enough that a suitable candidate will be identified and made temporary PM.

    My bet as I stated earlier would be Margaret Beckett..
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,236
    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 5,482

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    Why do you continue this dreary rhetoric that anybody who is against Corbyn is a Tory. It's pathetic
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,236
    eek said:

    First.

    I expect however that by October things will be different / desperate enough that a suitable candidate will be identified and made temporary PM.

    My bet as I stated earlier would be Margaret Beckett..

    Why would Corbyn & co. agree ? Who wants a No Deal Brexit least ? Corbyn or Swinson ?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 3,411

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,236

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    Why do you continue this dreary rhetoric that anybody who is against Corbyn is a Tory. It's pathetic
    I am not a Corbynista. Never have been. I have never voted for him. In fcat, I am considering resigning from the Labour Party if they go for Brexit, any Brexit.

    How do you explain, the 5 CHUK's position tonight that they will not support a VoNC in September. What could they possibly be thinking. Do they not fear a No Deal Brexit ? Doesn't seem like it.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 8,306
    I really think we have a non sequitur here. Whatever those ex - Labour MPs might think of Corbyn , does not justify them failing to support a VNOC in Johnson. Having done that, some might also decline to vote for Corbyn - or even vote against him. In the January VNOC Frank Field voted with Labour despite having already resigned the Whip. Lady Hermon is also much less likely to support Johnson than was the case with May - she too could oppose both.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 2,013

    How do you explain, the 5 CHUK's position tonight that they will not support a VoNC in September. What could they possibly be thinking. Do they not fear a No Deal Brexit ? Doesn't seem like it.

    You would have thought that Corbyn might have considered that before deliberately choosing not to send his letter to Anna Soubry.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 26,640
    Lady Hermon is extremely opposed to No Deal, so she might No Confidence the Government, but only for a GE, not for a GoNAIC. (Government of National Anything Involving Corbyn.)
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,236
    edited August 15
    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ? The person who has been honourable throughout has been Grieve. Grieve never left the party. The party threw him out.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 8,306
    rcs1000 said:

    Lady Hermon is extremely opposed to No Deal, so she might No Confidence the Government, but only for a GE, not for a GoNAIC. (Government of National Anything Involving Corbyn.)

    I can well believe that.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 21,129
    rcs1000 said:

    Lady Hermon is extremely opposed to No Deal, so she might No Confidence the Government, but only for a GE, not for a GoNAIC. (Government of National Anything Involving Corbyn.)

    So at least one member of Parliament has her priorities right.

    Hermon for PM I say.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,633
    I shall be voting against a no confidence motion on this thread.

    Mike Smithson for Prime Minister !!
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 3,411

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ?
    They're taking big steps.

    If they wish to actually vote against the party for which they were elected then they need to seek re-election. I think they know that, but Soubry may not.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 50,091
    JackW said:

    I shall be voting against a no confidence motion on this thread.

    Mike Smithson for Prime Minister !!

    Sell out!
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 643
    Ken Clarke and Harriet dream ticket. Would command the numbers I reckon.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 8,306
    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ?
    They're taking big steps.

    If they wish to actually vote against the party for which they were elected then they need to seek re-election. I think they know that, but Soubry may not.
    Prentice did that in March 1979 - and in so doing brought down the Callaghan Government!
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,236

    How do you explain, the 5 CHUK's position tonight that they will not support a VoNC in September. What could they possibly be thinking. Do they not fear a No Deal Brexit ? Doesn't seem like it.

    You would have thought that Corbyn might have considered that before deliberately choosing not to send his letter to Anna Soubry.
    Corbyn ironically is in a very strong position. Unlike 80% of the Labour members and supporters, he intrinsically does not believe in the EU, as we do. So his position is: take it or leave it. There is another question of simple arithmetic. No matter whose name you come with: Starmer, Thornberry, Harman, Beckett etc. ; they all might be better than Corbyn and probably are. But they will not get the support of 30-50 of Labour MPs who are Corbyn's flunkies. Without them nothing will get through the Commons no matter how many Tories, CHUKs, Liberal Democrats join hands. That is the reality and Corbyn and his advisers know that.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 5,482
    JackW said:

    I shall be voting against a no confidence motion on this thread.

    Mike Smithson for Prime Minister !!

    Can I make it clear that should this proposition be put me I will accept. I will be very happy to work a 38 hour week but people you should know that I do like to have a nap in the afternoon and I'm always on my smartphone checking out PB threads
  • O/T

    Aberdeen heading out of Europe for another year.... Guess we'll just have to concentrate on the domestic treble.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 643

    JackW said:

    I shall be voting against a no confidence motion on this thread.

    Mike Smithson for Prime Minister !!

    Can I make it clear that should this proposition be put me I will accept. I will be very happy to work a 38 hour week but people you should know that I do like to have a nap in the afternoon and I'm always on my smartphone checking out PB threads
    Very wise. Ronald Reagan did say “they say hard work never killed anyone but I figured why take the chance?”
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,236

    JackW said:

    I shall be voting against a no confidence motion on this thread.

    Mike Smithson for Prime Minister !!

    Can I make it clear that should this proposition be put me I will accept. I will be very happy to work a 38 hour week but people you should know that I do like to have a nap in the afternoon and I'm always on my smartphone checking out PB threads
    Ronald Reagan stopped working after 11am.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 31,443
    justin124 said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ?
    They're taking big steps.

    If they wish to actually vote against the party for which they were elected then they need to seek re-election. I think they know that, but Soubry may not.
    Prentice did that in March 1979 - and in so doing brought down the Callaghan Government!
    Frank Maguire brought down the Callaghan government - by "abstaining in person"!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 21,129

    JackW said:

    I shall be voting against a no confidence motion on this thread.

    Mike Smithson for Prime Minister !!

    Can I make it clear that should this proposition be put me I will accept. I will be very happy to work a 38 hour week but people you should know that I do like to have a nap in the afternoon and I'm always on my smartphone checking out PB threads
    Very wise. Ronald Reagan did say “they say hard work never killed anyone but I figured why take the chance?”
    The ghosts of Felix Mendelssohn and Samuel Coleridge Taylor might conceivably disagree with those who say it anyway.
  • dodradedodrade Posts: 295

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ? The person who has been honourable throughout has been Grieve. Grieve never left the party. The party threw him out.
    This is what he told his constituents to get elected in 2017. How honourable has he been to them (and his word) since then?

    https://www.dominicgrieve.org.uk/news/dominic-grieves-election-message-constituents
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 21,129

    JackW said:

    I shall be voting against a no confidence motion on this thread.

    Mike Smithson for Prime Minister !!

    Can I make it clear that should this proposition be put me I will accept. I will be very happy to work a 38 hour week but people you should know that I do like to have a nap in the afternoon and I'm always on my smartphone checking out PB threads
    Ronald Reagan stopped working after 11am.
    Are you saying that he ever started?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 24,677

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ? The person who has been honourable throughout has been Grieve. Grieve never left the party. The party threw him out.
    Grieve is still a Tory I think?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 24,677

    JackW said:

    I shall be voting against a no confidence motion on this thread.

    Mike Smithson for Prime Minister !!

    Can I make it clear that should this proposition be put me I will accept. I will be very happy to work a 38 hour week but people you should know that I do like to have a nap in the afternoon and I'm always on my smartphone checking out PB threads
    Ronald Reagan stopped working after 11am.
    Of course. You wouldn’t want to interfere with the digestion of your leisurely breakfast
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 8,306

    justin124 said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ?
    They're taking big steps.

    If they wish to actually vote against the party for which they were elected then they need to seek re-election. I think they know that, but Soubry may not.
    Prentice did that in March 1979 - and in so doing brought down the Callaghan Government!
    Frank Maguire brought down the Callaghan government - by "abstaining in person"!
    As did Gerry Fitt by abstaining. Prentice,though, had been elected as a Labour MP.Personally I am surprised that, thereafter, he was not treated as a Parliamentary leper - like Peter Griffiths following his election for Smethwick in 1964. Nobody should have paired with him - and his life made utterly unbearable if necessary to the extent of a breakdown in his health.
  • eekeek Posts: 5,520
    dodrade said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ? The person who has been honourable throughout has been Grieve. Grieve never left the party. The party threw him out.
    This is what he told his constituents to get elected in 2017. How honourable has he been to them (and his word) since then?

    https://www.dominicgrieve.org.uk/news/dominic-grieves-election-message-constituents
    What does a No Deal negotiated arrangement actually look like?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 24,677
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ?
    They're taking big steps.

    If they wish to actually vote against the party for which they were elected then they need to seek re-election. I think they know that, but Soubry may not.
    Prentice did that in March 1979 - and in so doing brought down the Callaghan Government!
    Frank Maguire brought down the Callaghan government - by "abstaining in person"!
    As did Gerry Fitt by abstaining. Prentice,though, had been elected as a Labour MP.Personally I am surprised that, thereafter, he was not treated as a Parliamentary leper - like Peter Griffiths following his election for Smethwick in 1964. Nobody should have paired with him - and his life made utterly unbearable if necessary to the extent of a breakdown in his health.
    Bullying isn’t approved of these days
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,236
    edited August 15
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/15/sarah-wollaston-jeremy-corbyn-government-may-be-lesser-of-two-evils?CMP=share_btn_tw

    The latest Lib Dem MP and ex-Tory is talking a lot of sense. Let's get over the line first, as Brexiters say, then worry about who's going to be caretaker PM.

    Personally, I would support Clarke and even Grieve for their unflinching dedication to the ideals of Europe but I am in a minority here.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 4,377
    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 28,070
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ?
    They're taking big steps.

    If they wish to actually vote against the party for which they were elected then they need to seek re-election. I think they know that, but Soubry may not.
    Prentice did that in March 1979 - and in so doing brought down the Callaghan Government!
    Frank Maguire brought down the Callaghan government - by "abstaining in person"!
    As did Gerry Fitt by abstaining. Prentice,though, had been elected as a Labour MP.Personally I am surprised that, thereafter, he was not treated as a Parliamentary leper - like Peter Griffiths following his election for Smethwick in 1964. Nobody should have paired with him - and his life made utterly unbearable if necessary to the extent of a breakdown in his health.
    There is something of the night about you.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 4,713
    I think we are confusing a VONC with a VOC here.

    I don’t see why a VONC wouldn’t pass.
    All Opposition MPs - even Frank Field? - could be expected to vote for it, plus Guto, Lee and perhaps others.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 8,306
    Charles said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ?
    They're taking big steps.

    If they wish to actually vote against the party for which they were elected then they need to seek re-election. I think they know that, but Soubry may not.
    Prentice did that in March 1979 - and in so doing brought down the Callaghan Government!
    Frank Maguire brought down the Callaghan government - by "abstaining in person"!
    As did Gerry Fitt by abstaining. Prentice,though, had been elected as a Labour MP.Personally I am surprised that, thereafter, he was not treated as a Parliamentary leper - like Peter Griffiths following his election for Smethwick in 1964. Nobody should have paired with him - and his life made utterly unbearable if necessary to the extent of a breakdown in his health.
    Bullying isn’t approved of these days
    But Prentice acted dishonourably and should have been denied any consideration by those whom he had betrayed.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,236
    Charles said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ?
    They're taking big steps.

    If they wish to actually vote against the party for which they were elected then they need to seek re-election. I think they know that, but Soubry may not.
    Prentice did that in March 1979 - and in so doing brought down the Callaghan Government!
    Frank Maguire brought down the Callaghan government - by "abstaining in person"!
    As did Gerry Fitt by abstaining. Prentice,though, had been elected as a Labour MP.Personally I am surprised that, thereafter, he was not treated as a Parliamentary leper - like Peter Griffiths following his election for Smethwick in 1964. Nobody should have paired with him - and his life made utterly unbearable if necessary to the extent of a breakdown in his health.
    Bullying isn’t approved of these days
    Didn't Reg Prentice defect to the Tories because he was pro-Europe ?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 31,443
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ?
    They're taking big steps.

    If they wish to actually vote against the party for which they were elected then they need to seek re-election. I think they know that, but Soubry may not.
    Prentice did that in March 1979 - and in so doing brought down the Callaghan Government!
    Frank Maguire brought down the Callaghan government - by "abstaining in person"!
    As did Gerry Fitt by abstaining. Prentice,though, had been elected as a Labour MP.Personally I am surprised that, thereafter, he was not treated as a Parliamentary leper - like Peter Griffiths following his election for Smethwick in 1964. Nobody should have paired with him - and his life made utterly unbearable if necessary to the extent of a breakdown in his health.
    Also, Alfred Broughton was gravely ill.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 461
    Charles said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ? The person who has been honourable throughout has been Grieve. Grieve never left the party. The party threw him out.
    Grieve is still a Tory I think?
    Well of course Grieve is a Tory- a *genuine* Conservative, and therefore of course wholly opposed to the irresponsible shit show that Johnson has unleashed on the Party... There are quite a few of them, and if they make a concerted move, then the Cummingites will never be able to gain the right Parliamentary arithmetic in the current Parliament and if their voters move Lib Dem, then the Tories cannot get a majority in the next Parliament.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,236
    edited August 15
    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 3,411
    Charles said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ? The person who has been honourable throughout has been Grieve. Grieve never left the party. The party threw him out.
    Grieve is still a Tory I think?
    Yes.

    Oddly I'd describe him as dis-honourable throughout. A coward, a charlatan, and a rogue. Only Soubry is worse, but as she's a lady I have no censure against her.

    If Grieve does the proper thing and gets elected on what he's saying then I have a lot of time for him.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 8,306

    I think we are confusing a VONC with a VOC here.

    I don’t see why a VONC wouldn’t pass.
    All Opposition MPs - even Frank Field? - could be expected to vote for it, plus Guto, Lee and perhaps others.

    Frank Field supported Labour in the January VNOC.The most doubtful probably are Austin and Lewis. Also will O'Mara have resigned his seat by this point?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 31,443

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    "If Corbyn invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to Brexit in the House of Commons.”
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 8,306

    Charles said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ?
    They're taking big steps.

    If they wish to actually vote against the party for which they were elected then they need to seek re-election. I think they know that, but Soubry may not.
    Prentice did that in March 1979 - and in so doing brought down the Callaghan Government!
    Frank Maguire brought down the Callaghan government - by "abstaining in person"!
    As did Gerry Fitt by abstaining. Prentice,though, had been elected as a Labour MP.Personally I am surprised that, thereafter, he was not treated as a Parliamentary leper - like Peter Griffiths following his election for Smethwick in 1964. Nobody should have paired with him - and his life made utterly unbearable if necessary to the extent of a breakdown in his health.
    Bullying isn’t approved of these days
    Didn't Reg Prentice defect to the Tories because he was pro-Europe ?
    He was facing deselection in his Newham constituency. His subsequent behaviour vindicated his critics within the CLP - and he had received active support from Labour moderates such as Roy Jenkins and Tom Jackson. In the early 1970s, Prentice had been an Anti-Marketeer.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 28,070

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/15/sarah-wollaston-jeremy-corbyn-government-may-be-lesser-of-two-evils?CMP=share_btn_tw

    The latest Lib Dem MP and ex-Tory is talking a lot of sense. Let's get over the line first, as Brexiters say, then worry about who's going to be caretaker PM.

    Personally, I would support Clarke and even Grieve for their unflinching dedication to the ideals of Europe but I am in a minority here.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Wollaston didn't continue her journey into the Labour Party. It's her natural home, especially with Corbyn in charge.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 24,677
    justin124 said:

    Charles said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ?
    They're taking big steps.

    If they wish to actually vote against the party for which they were elected then they need to seek re-election. I think they know that, but Soubry may not.
    Prentice did that in March 1979 - and in so doing brought down the Callaghan Government!
    Frank Maguire brought down the Callaghan government - by "abstaining in person"!
    As did Gerry Fitt by abstaining. Prentice,though, had been elected as a Labour MP.Personally I am surprised that, thereafter, he was not treated as a Parliamentary leper - like Peter Griffiths following his election for Smethwick in 1964. Nobody should have paired with him - and his life made utterly unbearable if necessary to the extent of a breakdown in his health.
    Bullying isn’t approved of these days
    But Prentice acted dishonourably and should have been denied any consideration by those whom he had betrayed.
    I was a toddler at the time

    From Wikipedia it looks like he was deselected in 1975, appealed to the NEC and was rejected in 1977 so resigned from the party. Why did Labour deserve his loyalty?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 28,070
    Charles said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ? The person who has been honourable throughout has been Grieve. Grieve never left the party. The party threw him out.
    Grieve is still a Tory I think?
    I think that's doubtful.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 4,213

    I think we are confusing a VONC with a VOC here.

    Yes - the quotation in the header is clearly about why it would be difficult to pass a confidence motion in a Corbyn government, not a no confidence motion in Johnson's government.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 4,213

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    "If Corbyn invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to Brexit in the House of Commons.”
    Surely you meant to say:
    "If Brexit invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to Corbyn in the House of Commons.”
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,236
    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ? The person who has been honourable throughout has been Grieve. Grieve never left the party. The party threw him out.
    Grieve is still a Tory I think?
    I think that's doubtful.
    His local Association has VoNCed him.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 2,720
    Chris said:

    I think we are confusing a VONC with a VOC here.

    Yes - the quotation in the header is clearly about why it would be difficult to pass a confidence motion in a Corbyn government, not a no confidence motion in Johnson's government.
    The word "no" in the header's heading should be removed.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,236
    justin124 said:

    Charles said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ?
    They're taking big steps.

    If they wish to actually vote against the party for which they were elected then they need to seek re-election. I think they know that, but Soubry may not.
    Prentice did that in March 1979 - and in so doing brought down the Callaghan Government!
    Frank Maguire brought down the Callaghan government - by "abstaining in person"!
    As did Gerry Fitt by abstaining. Prentice,though, had been elected as a Labour MP.Personally I am surprised that, thereafter, he was not treated as a Parliamentary leper - like Peter Griffiths following his election for Smethwick in 1964. Nobody should have paired with him - and his life made utterly unbearable if necessary to the extent of a breakdown in his health.
    Bullying isn’t approved of these days
    Didn't Reg Prentice defect to the Tories because he was pro-Europe ?
    He was facing deselection in his Newham constituency. His subsequent behaviour vindicated his critics within the CLP - and he had received active support from Labour moderates such as Roy Jenkins and Tom Jackson. In the early 1970s, Prentice had been an Anti-Marketeer.
    So what was the issue which led to all this malarkey ? Apart from Dick Taverne I cannot think of anyone else jumping ship.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 657

    Ken Clarke and Harriet dream ticket. Would command the numbers I reckon.

    Other way round, but yes. Harriet for PM!!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 4,377
    No I think the CHUCKS are going to not support a VONC. Isn't it?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 31,443
    Chris said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    "If Corbyn invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to Brexit in the House of Commons.”
    Surely you meant to say:
    "If Brexit invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to Corbyn in the House of Commons.”
    Either works, depending on your POV :)
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 2,720

    justin124 said:

    Charles said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ?
    They're taking big steps.

    If they wish to actually vote against the party for which they were elected then they need to seek re-election. I think they know that, but Soubry may not.
    Prentice did that in March 1979 - and in so doing brought down the Callaghan Government!
    Frank Maguire brought down the Callaghan government - by "abstaining in person"!
    As did Gerry Fitt by abstaining. Prentice,though, had been elected as a Labour MP.Personally I am surprised that, thereafter, he was not treated as a Parliamentary leper - like Peter Griffiths following his election for Smethwick in 1964. Nobody should have paired with him - and his life made utterly unbearable if necessary to the extent of a breakdown in his health.
    Bullying isn’t approved of these days
    Didn't Reg Prentice defect to the Tories because he was pro-Europe ?
    He was facing deselection in his Newham constituency. His subsequent behaviour vindicated his critics within the CLP - and he had received active support from Labour moderates such as Roy Jenkins and Tom Jackson. In the early 1970s, Prentice had been an Anti-Marketeer.
    So what was the issue which led to all this malarkey ? Apart from Dick Taverne I cannot think of anyone else jumping ship.
    He crossed the floor.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 38,791

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    I wish some MPs were as honest as you. This is all about stopping Brexit. has been from the start.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 4,213
    kinabalu said:

    No I think the CHUCKS are going to not support a VONC. Isn't it?

    I thought they were called the TIGFCHs now. Are there more than two left?
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,139

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,004
    I believe the LBJ quote isn't that ability to count is the "first rule of politics", but rather that he told Harry Byrd "you've learned to count since I left up there". Which is sadly less quotable.

    I only ever see the LBJ "first rule of politics" on UK news and politics website; a bit of googling seems to confirms it as a UK-specific misquote, so I'd love to know where it came from. I get the impression one UK journalist or academic used it then another picked it up (it sometimes gets credited "according to Philip Cowley" of Queen Mary UL apparently based on a 2015 tweet, but I wonder if it might go back further) and since it's so useful in a hung parliament* it's snowballed since then, but it doesn't seem to have infected the political discourse of any other English-speaking country.

    If we're all going to misquote it, could we at least mangle it into something rather closer to the original? Drop the "rule of politics" bit altogether, and stick with "learn to count" or "have you learned to count", perhaps?

    ---

    * I learned today that "hung parliament" is of surprisingly recent vintage as a term, first being used in the press by Simon Hoggart in the Guardian in June 1974.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 21,129

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
  • dodradedodrade Posts: 295
    eek said:

    dodrade said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ? The person who has been honourable throughout has been Grieve. Grieve never left the party. The party threw him out.
    This is what he told his constituents to get elected in 2017. How honourable has he been to them (and his word) since then?

    https://www.dominicgrieve.org.uk/news/dominic-grieves-election-message-constituents
    What does a No Deal negotiated arrangement actually look like?
    Grieve was elected on a manifesto that said no deal was better than a bad deal. When a negotiated arrangement was on offer he voted against it three times.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 38,791
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    Oops

    *innocent face*
  • RobDRobD Posts: 38,791
    dodrade said:

    eek said:

    dodrade said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ? The person who has been honourable throughout has been Grieve. Grieve never left the party. The party threw him out.
    This is what he told his constituents to get elected in 2017. How honourable has he been to them (and his word) since then?

    https://www.dominicgrieve.org.uk/news/dominic-grieves-election-message-constituents
    What does a No Deal negotiated arrangement actually look like?
    Grieve was elected on a manifesto that said no deal was better than a bad deal. When a negotiated arrangement was on offer he voted against it three times.
    Grieve voted against an orderly exit? Huh.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,633

    JackW said:

    I shall be voting against a no confidence motion on this thread.

    Mike Smithson for Prime Minister !!

    Can I make it clear that should this proposition be put me I will accept. I will be very happy to work a 38 hour week but people you should know that I do like to have a nap in the afternoon and I'm always on my smartphone checking out PB threads
    We accept the terms gladly ....
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 657
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    I said that this afternoon and was labelled an idiot. Just so you know to be prepared...
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 988

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    I said that this afternoon and was labelled an idiot. Just so you know to be prepared...
    Quite right. Once Corbyn and McDonnell are in numbers 10 and 11 they'll find a reason(s) not to give them up. Corbyn ignored a VONC by his MPs, he'll ignore anything designed to prise him from No 10. He's proved effective in seizing control of the Labour Party, he'll try the same with government, irrespective of the parliamentary arithmetic.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 21,129

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    I said that this afternoon and was labelled an idiot. Just so you know to be prepared...
    But it is exactly the sort of thing the duplicitous old bastard would do. He's as untrustworthy as he is stupid.

    And that of course is why Swinson will not work with him on the rather ambiguous terms he's proposed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 14,566

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    I said that this afternoon and was labelled an idiot. Just so you know to be prepared...
    I did say that any putative caretaker PM would need the implicit trust of MPs across a number of parties.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 657
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    I said that this afternoon and was labelled an idiot. Just so you know to be prepared...
    But it is exactly the sort of thing the duplicitous old bastard would do. He's as untrustworthy as he is stupid.

    And that of course is why Swinson will not work with him on the rather ambiguous terms he's proposed.
    I agree. IMO, we have TWO egomanics leading our dysfunctional main parties
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 3,903
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    I said that this afternoon and was labelled an idiot. Just so you know to be prepared...
    But it is exactly the sort of thing the duplicitous old bastard would do. He's as untrustworthy as he is stupid.

    And that of course is why Swinson will not work with him on the rather ambiguous terms he's proposed.
    So Swinson has had a great day then ?
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 988
    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    I said that this afternoon and was labelled an idiot. Just so you know to be prepared...
    But it is exactly the sort of thing the duplicitous old bastard would do. He's as untrustworthy as he is stupid.

    And that of course is why Swinson will not work with him on the rather ambiguous terms he's proposed.
    So Swinson has had a great day then ?
    She's shown rather more judgement than Lucas or Bebb, if that's what you mean.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,139
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    Of course there is no absolute guarantee. But the chances of Corbyn stopping no deal are about 100X those of Johnson doing it, so I think I can live with that.

    Corbyn is far more trustworthy than Johnson, which is not saying much but beggars can't be choosers in this situation.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 3,903

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    I said that this afternoon and was labelled an idiot. Just so you know to be prepared...
    But it is exactly the sort of thing the duplicitous old bastard would do. He's as untrustworthy as he is stupid.

    And that of course is why Swinson will not work with him on the rather ambiguous terms he's proposed.
    So Swinson has had a great day then ?
    She's shown rather more judgement than Lucas or Bebb, if that's what you mean.
    She is not in the same class as Sturgeon.
    Lucas response today was the correct one.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 12,095
    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    I said that this afternoon and was labelled an idiot. Just so you know to be prepared...
    But it is exactly the sort of thing the duplicitous old bastard would do. He's as untrustworthy as he is stupid.

    And that of course is why Swinson will not work with him on the rather ambiguous terms he's proposed.
    So Swinson has had a great day then ?
    Swinson who is relatively new to me-i'd never heard her speak until a couple of weeks ago-was very good today. I'd thought they'd chosen unwisely because at this time Davey's experience would be more useful. But she's surprisingly persuasive.
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 1,823
    Despite what Mike says, I do believe there are 10-20 Tory MPs who are willing to bring BoJo down. What they are not willing to do is put Corbyn into no. 10. But since, as you correctly point out, there aren't the numbers to do that, the rebels will think it's reasonably safe to act. (btw I bet one thing that encouraged Sarah Wollaston to join the LibDems was Jo Swinson's promise not to support a Corbyn premiership.)

    Now of course all this discussion is going on because of the risk of No Deal. And a Corbyn caretaker government isn't the only game in town. I sincerely believe that if, for example, we end up having an autumn General Election, parliament will find a way to force Boris to delay Brexit.
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 988
    Roger said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    I said that this afternoon and was labelled an idiot. Just so you know to be prepared...
    But it is exactly the sort of thing the duplicitous old bastard would do. He's as untrustworthy as he is stupid.

    And that of course is why Swinson will not work with him on the rather ambiguous terms he's proposed.
    So Swinson has had a great day then ?
    Swinson who is relatively new to me-i'd never heard her speak until a couple of weeks ago-was very good today. I'd thought they'd chosen unwisely because at this time Davey's experience would be more useful. But she's surprisingly persuasive.
    Yep, very persuasive that Corbyn as PM is far too big a risk to contemplate.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 21,129
    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    I said that this afternoon and was labelled an idiot. Just so you know to be prepared...
    But it is exactly the sort of thing the duplicitous old bastard would do. He's as untrustworthy as he is stupid.

    And that of course is why Swinson will not work with him on the rather ambiguous terms he's proposed.
    So Swinson has had a great day then ?
    Well, she hasn't been railroaded into a risky decision.

    She could have been more astute in the way she rejected it, perhaps. All she had to do was either say, 'second referendum first, or no votes,' or if she wanted to really stir things up, 'I don't trust him for all these reasons, so I approve in principle of the idea but I'm not putting him in power.'
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 8,306
    Charles said:

    justin124 said:

    Charles said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ?
    They're taking big steps.

    If they wish to actually vote against the party for which they were elected then they need to seek re-election. I think they know that, but Soubry may not.
    Prentice did that in March 1979 - and in so doing brought down the Callaghan Government!
    Frank Maguire brought down the Callaghan government - by "abstaining in person"!
    As did Gerry Fitt by abstaining. Prentice,though, had been elected as a Labour MP.Personally I am surprised that, thereafter, he was not treated as a Parliamentary leper - like Peter Griffiths following his election for Smethwick in 1964. Nobody should have paired with him - and his life made utterly unbearable if necessary to the extent of a breakdown in his health.
    Bullying isn’t approved of these days
    But Prentice acted dishonourably and should have been denied any consideration by those whom he had betrayed.
    I was a toddler at the time

    From Wikipedia it looks like he was deselected in 1975, appealed to the NEC and was rejected in 1977 so resigned from the party. Why did Labour deserve his loyalty?
    His constituents had no wish to be represented by a Tory MP - and he made no effort to respect their views.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 2,013
    edited August 15
    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    I said that this afternoon and was labelled an idiot. Just so you know to be prepared...
    But it is exactly the sort of thing the duplicitous old bastard would do. He's as untrustworthy as he is stupid.

    And that of course is why Swinson will not work with him on the rather ambiguous terms he's proposed.
    So Swinson has had a great day then ?
    She's shown rather more judgement than Lucas or Bebb, if that's what you mean.
    She is not in the same class as Sturgeon.
    Lucas response today was the correct one.
    Lucas's party has 1 MP, after the next election will have 1 MP, and after the following election will have 1 MP.

    She is gloriously untroubled by having to do anything that might appeal to an actual electorate. Meanwhile 35 of the Lib Dems' top 40 target seats are in Tory-held constituencies where Corbyn is anathema.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 21,129

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    Of course there is no absolute guarantee. But the chances of Corbyn stopping no deal are about 100X those of Johnson doing it, so I think I can live with that.

    Corbyn is far more trustworthy than Johnson, which is not saying much but beggars can't be choosers in this situation.
    He is not 'far more' trustworthy, he is slightly more trustworthy than Johnson. He has a similar track record of dishonest statements. When you consider Johnson has been sacked from three jobs for lying, that's saying quite something.

    That said, he has not made so many dishonest actions as Johnson, although that's partly because he hasn't ever actually done anything very important.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 16,808
    Surely Corbyn has made no deal more likely as it seems he will try and form s government and oppose any attempt by Labour MPs to sideline him.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 10,549

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    Of course there is no absolute guarantee. But the chances of Corbyn stopping no deal are about 100X those of Johnson doing it, so I think I can live with that.

    Corbyn is far more trustworthy than Johnson, which is not saying much but beggars can't be choosers in this situation.
    Corbyn couldn't be trusted to get an A50 extension (indeed this is not in any PMs gift), as he is so pathetic and limp about the whole business. If no A50 extension the whole plan fails. Any Extension and plan for either GE, Peoplesvote or new negotiating criteria needs someone who believes it a worthwhile aim. Corbyn is just about the most untrustworthy Labour MP on the subject.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 657
    ydoethur said:

    That said, he has not made so many dishonest actions as Johnson, although that's partly because he hasn't ever actually done anything very important.

    I have fixed that for you ;)
  • ChrisChris Posts: 4,213

    Roger said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    I said that this afternoon and was labelled an idiot. Just so you know to be prepared...
    But it is exactly the sort of thing the duplicitous old bastard would do. He's as untrustworthy as he is stupid.

    And that of course is why Swinson will not work with him on the rather ambiguous terms he's proposed.
    So Swinson has had a great day then ?
    Swinson who is relatively new to me-i'd never heard her speak until a couple of weeks ago-was very good today. I'd thought they'd chosen unwisely because at this time Davey's experience would be more useful. But she's surprisingly persuasive.
    Yep, very persuasive that Corbyn as PM is far too big a risk to contemplate.
    So have the Lib Dems now officially flipped from being a "We must stop Brexit" party to a "We must stop Corbyn" party?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 21,129

    ydoethur said:

    That said, he has not made so many dishonest actions as Johnson, although that's partly because he hasn't ever actually done anything very important.

    I have fixed that for you ;)
    Can't argue!
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 657
    edited August 15
    ydoethur said:

    She could have been more astute in the way she rejected it, perhaps. All she had to do was either say, 'second referendum first, or no votes,' or if she wanted to really stir things up, 'I don't trust him for all these reasons, so I approve in principle of the idea but I'm not putting him in power.'

    All she had to say was "I will be making a statement later and you will get a copy if you contact our Press Office"
  • stodgestodge Posts: 5,660
    Evening all :)

    Excellent day for Jo but it wasn't difficult to sidestep the Corbyn trap into which all the Conservatives hoped she would fall.

    The response is to ratchet the pressure on Corbyn by offering someone else from the Labour side (Harman) she would consider and by adding Clarke it provides an irritation to Boris (never a bad thing).

    The numbers have never been there for a GoNU - the Johnson and Corbyn loyalists are too numerous in the Commons for an alternative to have more than 100-150 MPs at the very most.

    It's easy to say the price to stop No Deal is putting Corbyn into Downing Street but the Conservatives would use it against the LDs in any subsequent campaign so we'd get to a No Deal plus a decade or more of Conservative majority misrule.

    No, if there's a route to avoiding No Deal it has to be without putting the Marxist Corbyn into Downing Street and it has ideally to humiliate Johnson - I suppose the best thing would be for Johnson himself to seek an extension proclaiming it "in the national interest". I doubt even he would be that stupid.

    The only route I see is for the Commons to show its preference by voting for a further extension which Johnson will inevitably defy and if he calls a GE he will have to deal with the 30-40 Conservative rebels who are opposed to leaving without a Deal.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 21,129
    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    I said that this afternoon and was labelled an idiot. Just so you know to be prepared...
    But it is exactly the sort of thing the duplicitous old bastard would do. He's as untrustworthy as he is stupid.

    And that of course is why Swinson will not work with him on the rather ambiguous terms he's proposed.
    So Swinson has had a great day then ?
    Swinson who is relatively new to me-i'd never heard her speak until a couple of weeks ago-was very good today. I'd thought they'd chosen unwisely because at this time Davey's experience would be more useful. But she's surprisingly persuasive.
    Yep, very persuasive that Corbyn as PM is far too big a risk to contemplate.
    So have the Lib Dems now officially flipped from being a "We must stop Brexit" party to a "We must stop Corbyn" party?
    At this moment, they do not trust Corbyn to stop Brexit because the terms he is proposing are less than watertight.

    They are right not to trust him.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 657
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    That said, he has not made so many dishonest actions as Johnson, although that's partly because he hasn't ever actually done anything very important.

    I have fixed that for you ;)
    Can't argue!
    :D
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 9,171
    Swinson has been shown up by Sturgeon and Lucas.

    She is now trying to wriggle out of her misjudged reflex rejection of Jezza with talk of a meeting. By the end of the weekend she'll be on board.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 5,482
    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    I said that this afternoon and was labelled an idiot. Just so you know to be prepared...
    But it is exactly the sort of thing the duplicitous old bastard would do. He's as untrustworthy as he is stupid.

    And that of course is why Swinson will not work with him on the rather ambiguous terms he's proposed.
    So Swinson has had a great day then ?
    Swinson who is relatively new to me-i'd never heard her speak until a couple of weeks ago-was very good today. I'd thought they'd chosen unwisely because at this time Davey's experience would be more useful. But she's surprisingly persuasive.
    Yep, very persuasive that Corbyn as PM is far too big a risk to contemplate.
    So have the Lib Dems now officially flipped from being a "We must stop Brexit" party to a "We must stop Corbyn" party?
    Bollocks. Read the header there simply aren't the numbers there. This is a total spoof story
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 24,677
    geoffw said:

    justin124 said:

    Charles said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Omnium said:

    Omnium said:

    The only way there isn't enough numbers for VoNC will be due to the infamous CHUKs who are basically Tories. There are, at least, 5 Tories who will vote for a VoNC because they have burnt their boats.

    It's a big step to vonc the party under whose banner you were elected.

    If it was me as an MP contemplating such a thing then I'd have to resign and seek re-election. There's no time for that though, and as such abstaining has to be the limit.

    How do you explain then what Soubry, Wollaston and Allen are up to ?
    They're taking big steps.

    If they wish to actually vote against the party for which they were elected then they need to seek re-election. I think they know that, but Soubry may not.
    Prentice did that in March 1979 - and in so doing brought down the Callaghan Government!
    Frank Maguire brought down the Callaghan government - by "abstaining in person"!
    As did Gerry Fitt by abstaining. Prentice,though, had been elected as a Labour MP.Personally I am surprised that, thereafter, he was not treated as a Parliamentary leper - like Peter Griffiths following his election for Smethwick in 1964. Nobody should have paired with him - and his life made utterly unbearable if necessary to the extent of a breakdown in his health.
    Bullying isn’t approved of these days
    Didn't Reg Prentice defect to the Tories because he was pro-Europe ?
    He was facing deselection in his Newham constituency. His subsequent behaviour vindicated his critics within the CLP - and he had received active support from Labour moderates such as Roy Jenkins and Tom Jackson. In the early 1970s, Prentice had been an Anti-Marketeer.
    So what was the issue which led to all this malarkey ? Apart from Dick Taverne I cannot think of anyone else jumping ship.
    He crossed the floor.
    he was deselected in 75 and didn't resign from Labour until 77
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 1,510
    I think there might be the numbers for a VONC. It’ll be tight though.

    What I don’t think there is at the moment are votes for an alternative government. Good luck persuading Corbyn and the Labour front bench to back an alternative figure to such a degree that the monarch can say with certainty they command the confidence of the House.
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 988

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    I said that this afternoon and was labelled an idiot. Just so you know to be prepared...
    But it is exactly the sort of thing the duplicitous old bastard would do. He's as untrustworthy as he is stupid.

    And that of course is why Swinson will not work with him on the rather ambiguous terms he's proposed.
    So Swinson has had a great day then ?
    Swinson who is relatively new to me-i'd never heard her speak until a couple of weeks ago-was very good today. I'd thought they'd chosen unwisely because at this time Davey's experience would be more useful. But she's surprisingly persuasive.
    Yep, very persuasive that Corbyn as PM is far too big a risk to contemplate.
    So have the Lib Dems now officially flipped from being a "We must stop Brexit" party to a "We must stop Corbyn" party?
    Bollocks. Read the header there simply aren't the numbers there. This is a total spoof story
    Would that be Bollocks to Corbyn?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 4,213
    ydoethur said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    I said that this afternoon and was labelled an idiot. Just so you know to be prepared...
    But it is exactly the sort of thing the duplicitous old bastard would do. He's as untrustworthy as he is stupid.

    And that of course is why Swinson will not work with him on the rather ambiguous terms he's proposed.
    So Swinson has had a great day then ?
    Swinson who is relatively new to me-i'd never heard her speak until a couple of weeks ago-was very good today. I'd thought they'd chosen unwisely because at this time Davey's experience would be more useful. But she's surprisingly persuasive.
    Yep, very persuasive that Corbyn as PM is far too big a risk to contemplate.
    So have the Lib Dems now officially flipped from being a "We must stop Brexit" party to a "We must stop Corbyn" party?
    At this moment, they do not trust Corbyn to stop Brexit because the terms he is proposing are less than watertight.

    They are right not to trust him.
    Let's be more concrete - if they had to choose between preventing a No Deal Brexit and preventing Corbyn from becoming prime minister, even for a few weeks, which would it be?

    I had been under the impression until today that they considered nothing more important than preventing a No Deal Brexit.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 24,677

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    I said that this afternoon and was labelled an idiot. Just so you know to be prepared...
    I was called an idiot for suggesting that people might lack trust in Corbyn's promise not to use any of his executive powets
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 9,171

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    Header is spot on. VONC will not carry. Johnson is safe from that.

    The truth is that there are many MPs who want to stop Brexit but are more concerned with stopping Corbyn being PM.

    This means that Brexit is unlikely to be stopped.

    Who to blame? Corbyn for being Corbyn? Or those pretending that stopping Brexit is their priority?

    The latter will say the former.

    That is my point. If the Devil could stop Brexit, I'd support him. Then we can remove him.
    Quite. And even though I'm no Corbynista if allowing him to be a caretaker PM for a short time is the only way to stop no deal then so be it.
    What if he reneged on it, once installed?
    I said that this afternoon and was labelled an idiot. Just so you know to be prepared...
    But it is exactly the sort of thing the duplicitous old bastard would do. He's as untrustworthy as he is stupid.

    And that of course is why Swinson will not work with him on the rather ambiguous terms he's proposed.
    So Swinson has had a great day then ?
    Swinson who is relatively new to me-i'd never heard her speak until a couple of weeks ago-was very good today. I'd thought they'd chosen unwisely because at this time Davey's experience would be more useful. But she's surprisingly persuasive.
    Yep, very persuasive that Corbyn as PM is far too big a risk to contemplate.
    So have the Lib Dems now officially flipped from being a "We must stop Brexit" party to a "We must stop Corbyn" party?
    Bollocks. Read the header there simply aren't the numbers there. This is a total spoof story
    Would that be Bollocks to Corbyn?
    The only bollock today was the one Swinson dropped with her response to Jezza.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 1,510
    I should also say if Boris loses a VONC and the 14 days pass he holds all the cards. I still don’t believe that no deal can be stopped in such a circumstance, unless the Commons can unite around an alternative figure.

    Considering the Commons couldn’t even agree on what sort of Brexit they wanted a few months back, I think it’s a bit pie in the sky at the moment that they’ll suddenly unite around a Ken Clarke or Harriet Harman government.
This discussion has been closed.