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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » By a small margin punters think the next general election will

SystemSystem Posts: 11,018
edited August 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » By a small margin punters think the next general election will happen before Brexit

Chart of Betfair Exchange from Betdata.io

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    First - like a winnar
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    You'd get better odds betting on an October election surely?

    Silly market - silly prices
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,980
    Mr. Briskin, now that we know the consequences of you posting first, the time has come for a People's Thread.
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    Mr. Briskin, now that we know the consequences of you posting first, the time has come for a People's Thread.

    https://youtu.be/4pdBg88UOAk
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,239
    Re Italy, if there is no operating government there how would the EU27 get unanimous agreement for a further extension in the somewhat unlikely event that we asked for it to have an election?
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056
    DavidL said:

    Re Italy, if there is no operating government there how would the EU27 get unanimous agreement for a further extension in the somewhat unlikely event that we asked for it to have an election?

    There'd be no-one to veto it.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,886
    DavidL said:

    Re Italy, if there is no operating government there how would the EU27 get unanimous agreement for a further extension in the somewhat unlikely event that we asked for it to have an election?

    Presumably there’s a government until there’s another government, same as happens in the U.K.?
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    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,600
    "The LAB threats to deselect certain MPs by imposing mandatory re-selection is hardly going to help things."

    I don't follow Mike's train of thought here. Sitting Labour MPs facing deselection will surely want a snap general election, because in those circumstances there won't be time for a lengthy process to deselect them. Vote to bring down Johnson's government, vote for an alternative Corbyn led government (safe in the knowledge that MPs of other parties won't) and then vote against any alternative government not led by Corbyn.

    If you reckon that you have a better prospect of holding your seat than of seeing off a deselection process, that's the most assured route to another 5 years on the back benches.
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    I like this market - pays out before year end (November 1st to be precise) - so tiny tim gets his xmas presents. I've gone large.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,265

    "The LAB threats to deselect certain MPs by imposing mandatory re-selection is hardly going to help things."

    I don't follow Mike's train of thought here. Sitting Labour MPs facing deselection will surely want a snap general election, because in those circumstances there won't be time for a lengthy process to deselect them. Vote to bring down Johnson's government, vote for an alternative Corbyn led government (safe in the knowledge that MPs of other parties won't) and then vote against any alternative government not led by Corbyn.

    If you reckon that you have a better prospect of holding your seat than of seeing off a deselection process, that's the most assured route to another 5 years on the back benches.

    Especially as in a snap election the power to select candidates sits with the NEC
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,239
    edited August 2019

    DavidL said:

    Re Italy, if there is no operating government there how would the EU27 get unanimous agreement for a further extension in the somewhat unlikely event that we asked for it to have an election?

    There'd be no-one to veto it.
    That's what I am not sure about. Do they need to veto or do they need to positively vote for the extension? My guess would be the latter.
    @Sandpit:
    Presumably there’s a government until there’s another government, same as happens in the U.K.?

    Conte says this government stops here. Given there are various possibilities arising from new coalitions inside the Parliament I am not sure that there will be a continuing government.
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited August 2019
    DavidL said:


    Conte says this government stops here. Given there are various possibilities arising from new coalitions inside the Parliament I am not sure that there will be a continuing government.

    I'm confident the Italian President has the authority to appoint a caretaker government, and such a government is unlikely to do anything contentious like vetoing an Article 50 extension request.
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    anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,578
    Precisely so. The English have bullied the Irish for centuries but thanks to Irish membership of the EU the boot is now on the other foot. And, to mix metaphors, the English don't like it up em.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,239
    The economic performance of Italy over the last 18 months is truly desperate: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/gdp-growth

    And debt is back to record levels as a share of GDP: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/government-debt-to-gdp

    Not the backdrop that most governing parties would be looking for for an election.
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    crandlescrandles Posts: 91
    So what about betting on brexit before general election at 1.91
    And reducing risk by laying brexit date before Jul-Dec 19 at 1.66

    If an election happens before brexit, but not called til recess is over, and no preparation during campaign, then new parliament might be more opposed to brexit and even if not some delay for preparations is likely. Can lose both bets but seems unlikely and could win both.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105
    On topic - nobody has a clue.
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    FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    DavidL said:

    The economic performance of Italy over the last 18 months is truly desperate: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/gdp-growth

    And debt is back to record levels as a share of GDP: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/government-debt-to-gdp

    Not the backdrop that most governing parties would be looking for for an election.

    The EU doesn't get much credit but it should be praised for its ability to strangle Mediterranean economies and inspire far right parties.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    Isn’t that the point of the settled status scheme, moving them into indefinite leave to remain status?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962

    Precisely so. The English have bullied the Irish for centuries but thanks to Irish membership of the EU the boot is now on the other foot. And, to mix metaphors, the English don't like it up em.
    And their new power has got them a hard border. Nicely done. :D
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,239
    Fenster said:

    DavidL said:

    The economic performance of Italy over the last 18 months is truly desperate: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/gdp-growth

    And debt is back to record levels as a share of GDP: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/government-debt-to-gdp

    Not the backdrop that most governing parties would be looking for for an election.

    The EU doesn't get much credit but it should be praised for its ability to strangle Mediterranean economies and inspire far right parties.
    And its willingness to leave them with the consequences of mass migration across the Mediterranean.

    On one view its remarkable that we are the ones who are leaving...
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    edited August 2019
    DavidL said:

    The economic performance of Italy over the last 18 months is truly desperate: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/gdp-growth

    And debt is back to record levels as a share of GDP: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/government-debt-to-gdp

    Not the backdrop that most governing parties would be looking for for an election.

    Salvini has blamed it all on Europe and a large chunk of Italians agree. He is offering to take on Brussels while the opposiition is offering more Europe.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056
    Will Philip Thompson explain why Mark Durkan is wrong?

    https://twitter.com/markdurkan/status/1163830998985035776
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,965
    The sheer scale of irresponsible ignorance on this site re: the Irish border and the
    Troubles is terrifying. I had to re-read the posts of Thompson & Briskin earlier, as I assumed they were spoofs.

    The grim truth is they were not: these guys are seemingly for real.

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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Will Philip Thompson explain why Mark Durkan is wrong?

    https://twitter.com/markdurkan/status/1163830998985035776

    The usual answer is because he's Mark Durkan
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079

    Will Philip Thompson explain why Mark Durkan is wrong?

    https://twitter.com/markdurkan/status/1163830998985035776

    The usual answer is because he's Mark Durkan
    Good one.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    I think “more powerful than us” is overstating things, but it’s probably true within the rather crucial context we are discussing.

    Britain is savagely weakened by leaving the EU. It becomes a trade taker rather than a trade (rule) maker. It takes a poorer path, too, with the commensurate loss of influence that implies. Finally there is the literally existential threat posed by Celtic independence.

    A reasonable Brexit outcome sees Britain (or England) falling to down the table - closer to an Italy. Still a player, but largely ignored on the big issues.

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.
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    The sheer scale of irresponsible ignorance on this site re: the Irish border and the
    Troubles is terrifying. I had to re-read the posts of Thompson & Briskin earlier, as I assumed they were spoofs.

    The grim truth is they were not: these guys are seemingly for real.

    Always best to continue an argument onto the next thread I find.

    So we surrendered to the IRA.

    Bang on about the GFA all you want. Varardkar certainly does.

    And just cancel Brexit while you're at it.

    *SHRUG*
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,980
    Mr. Glenn, Lord Trimble is of a different view.
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    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,137

    The sheer scale of irresponsible ignorance on this site re: the Irish border and the
    Troubles is terrifying. I had to re-read the posts of Thompson & Briskin earlier, as I assumed they were spoofs.

    The grim truth is they were not: these guys are seemingly for real.

    Always best to continue an argument onto the next thread I find.

    So we surrendered to the IRA.

    Bang on about the GFA all you want. Varardkar certainly does.

    And just cancel Brexit while you're at it.

    *SHRUG*
    We didn't surrender to the IRA. What we put to the IRA had been on the table since the mid-1970s, "Sunningdale for Slow Learners". It took a hell of a lot for them to move to that position and that is all now at risk.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    DavidL said:

    The economic performance of Italy over the last 18 months is truly desperate: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/gdp-growth

    And debt is back to record levels as a share of GDP: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/government-debt-to-gdp

    Not the backdrop that most governing parties would be looking for for an election.

    Tying Italy to the header, doesn't Boris head a governing party looking for an election with a record debt to GDP ratio?
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,980
    Mr. Walker, it might also shift the central point of EU politics and economics further to the left.
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    DougSeal said:

    The sheer scale of irresponsible ignorance on this site re: the Irish border and the
    Troubles is terrifying. I had to re-read the posts of Thompson & Briskin earlier, as I assumed they were spoofs.

    The grim truth is they were not: these guys are seemingly for real.

    Always best to continue an argument onto the next thread I find.

    So we surrendered to the IRA.

    Bang on about the GFA all you want. Varardkar certainly does.

    And just cancel Brexit while you're at it.

    *SHRUG*
    We didn't surrender to the IRA. What we put to the IRA had been on the table since the mid-1970s, "Sunningdale for Slow Learners". It took a hell of a lot for them to move to that position and that is all now at risk.
    With Adams swanning about where he pleases it certainly felt like a surrender to me.
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    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,435
    How was the Belfast Agreement legislated into UK law? The Irish changed their constitution, what did the UK do?
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    edited August 2019

    Mr. Walker, it might also shift the central point of EU politics and economics further to the left.

    I’m not talking about economic left/right, although one presumes that without the U.K. the needle in Europe tips toward the left.

    I’m talking about liberalism/authoritarianism.
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    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,137

    DougSeal said:

    The sheer scale of irresponsible ignorance on this site re: the Irish border and the
    Troubles is terrifying. I had to re-read the posts of Thompson & Briskin earlier, as I assumed they were spoofs.

    The grim truth is they were not: these guys are seemingly for real.

    Always best to continue an argument onto the next thread I find.

    So we surrendered to the IRA.

    Bang on about the GFA all you want. Varardkar certainly does.

    And just cancel Brexit while you're at it.

    *SHRUG*
    We didn't surrender to the IRA. What we put to the IRA had been on the table since the mid-1970s, "Sunningdale for Slow Learners". It took a hell of a lot for them to move to that position and that is all now at risk.
    With Adams swanning about where he pleases it certainly felt like a surrender to me.
    Many in the Republican community would say the same about Paisley and any number of British soldiers.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
    It doesn’t. Brexit is a betrayal of British tradition, not its apotheosis.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    I think “more powerful than us” is overstating things, but it’s probably true within the rather crucial context we are discussing.

    Britain is savagely weakened by leaving the EU. It becomes a trade taker rather than a trade (rule) maker. It takes a poorer path, too, with the commensurate loss of influence that implies. Finally there is the literally existential threat posed by Celtic independence.

    A reasonable Brexit outcome sees Britain (or England) falling to down the table - closer to an Italy. Still a player, but largely ignored on the big issues.

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.
    whats the problem ?

    we are the 21st ranked country worldwide by population in 2019. By end of the centrury well be about number 50 as African and Asian countries overtake us. Nobody will be much interested in our values or indeed Europes. Theres a new global order on the make and its time we adapted ourselves to it.
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    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    The sheer scale of irresponsible ignorance on this site re: the Irish border and the
    Troubles is terrifying. I had to re-read the posts of Thompson & Briskin earlier, as I assumed they were spoofs.

    The grim truth is they were not: these guys are seemingly for real.

    Always best to continue an argument onto the next thread I find.

    So we surrendered to the IRA.

    Bang on about the GFA all you want. Varardkar certainly does.

    And just cancel Brexit while you're at it.

    *SHRUG*
    We didn't surrender to the IRA. What we put to the IRA had been on the table since the mid-1970s, "Sunningdale for Slow Learners". It took a hell of a lot for them to move to that position and that is all now at risk.
    With Adams swanning about where he pleases it certainly felt like a surrender to me.
    Many in the Republican community would say the same about Paisley and any number of British soldiers.
    So??? I'm all up for starting it up again. It's the diehard remainers that are being all namby-pamby
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    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,137
    edited August 2019

    How was the Belfast Agreement legislated into UK law? The Irish changed their constitution, what did the UK do?

    We repealed the Government of Ireland Act 1920 and replaced it with the Northern Ireland Act 1998.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056

    How was the Belfast Agreement legislated into UK law? The Irish changed their constitution, what did the UK do?

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/47/contents
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    I think “more powerful than us” is overstating things, but it’s probably true within the rather crucial context we are discussing.

    Britain is savagely weakened by leaving the EU. It becomes a trade taker rather than a trade (rule) maker. It takes a poorer path, too, with the commensurate loss of influence that implies. Finally there is the literally existential threat posed by Celtic independence.

    A reasonable Brexit outcome sees Britain (or England) falling to down the table - closer to an Italy. Still a player, but largely ignored on the big issues.

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.
    whats the problem ?

    we are the 21st ranked country worldwide by population in 2019. By end of the centrury well be about number 50 as African and Asian countries overtake us. Nobody will be much interested in our values or indeed Europes. Theres a new global order on the make and its time we adapted ourselves to it.
    Population is not power, or Indonesia would be a heavyweight and Israel an irrelevance.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    DavidL said:

    The economic performance of Italy over the last 18 months is truly desperate: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/gdp-growth

    And debt is back to record levels as a share of GDP: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/government-debt-to-gdp

    Not the backdrop that most governing parties would be looking for for an election.

    Salvini has blamed it all on Europe and a large chunk of Italians agree. He is offering to take on Brussels while the opposiition is offering more Europe.
    The problem is Germany running a surplus and even this week, when Berlin is talking about opening the Merkel cheque book, most spending will be on local infrastructure (roads etc) to keep the money inside Germany.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
    It doesn’t. Brexit is a betrayal of British tradition, not its apotheosis.
    Perhaps your view of Britain was rose-tinted. If you were right, this wouldn't be happening.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,980
    Mr. Walker, you may be better informed on this than me, but the UK's actions on free speech and regulation doesn't scream liberal to me. It screams meddling puritanism laced with technological illiteracy.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,598
    DavidL said:

    The economic performance of Italy over the last 18 months is truly desperate: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/gdp-growth

    And debt is back to record levels as a share of GDP: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/government-debt-to-gdp

    Not the backdrop that most governing parties would be looking for for an election.

    Its almost as if shallow Populism isn't the answer...
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    I think “more powerful than us” is overstating things, but it’s probably true within the rather crucial context we are discussing.

    Britain is savagely weakened by leaving the EU. It becomes a trade taker rather than a trade (rule) maker. It takes a poorer path, too, with the commensurate loss of influence that implies. Finally there is the literally existential threat posed by Celtic independence.

    A reasonable Brexit outcome sees Britain (or England) falling to down the table - closer to an Italy. Still a player, but largely ignored on the big issues.

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.
    whats the problem ?

    we are the 21st ranked country worldwide by population in 2019. By end of the centrury well be about number 50 as African and Asian countries overtake us. Nobody will be much interested in our values or indeed Europes. Theres a new global order on the make and its time we adapted ourselves to it.
    Population is not power, or Indonesia would be a heavyweight and Israel an irrelevance.
    It;s no guarantee, but most of Europe will be tottering about on its Zimmerframes by 2050 and the population will drop off noticeably by 2100 that's not exactly a recipe for power projection,

    If the UN is correct there will be over 200 million Ugandans by 2100. Maybe its time to rethink our relations with them.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Shale gas (fracking for the use of) estimates might be wildly wrong.

    New research suggests that instead of 50 years' worth of gas, it might be just five.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49395658
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    anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,578
    RobD said:

    Precisely so. The English have bullied the Irish for centuries but thanks to Irish membership of the EU the boot is now on the other foot. And, to mix metaphors, the English don't like it up em.
    And their new power has got them a hard border. Nicely done. :D
    But a hard Bexit and a hard border will lead in short order to a united Ireland. Which is what the Irish Republic has always wanted.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    RobD said:

    Precisely so. The English have bullied the Irish for centuries but thanks to Irish membership of the EU the boot is now on the other foot. And, to mix metaphors, the English don't like it up em.
    And their new power has got them a hard border. Nicely done. :D
    But a hard Bexit and a hard border will lead in short order to a united Ireland. Which is what the Irish Republic has always wanted.
    Im still waiting to hear whos going to pay for it.

    I take it you think the Irish are stupid ?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,832

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
    What's wrong with British exceptionalism?

    All countries are exceptional.
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    JBriskinindyref2JBriskinindyref2 Posts: 1,775
    edited August 2019
    Sean_F said:

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
    What's wrong with British exceptionalism?

    All countries are exceptional.
    Only one gets a wiki page though-

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

    Edit:my bad-

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderweg
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,832
    DavidL said:

    The economic performance of Italy over the last 18 months is truly desperate: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/gdp-growth

    And debt is back to record levels as a share of GDP: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/government-debt-to-gdp

    Not the backdrop that most governing parties would be looking for for an election.

    The economic performance of Italy since 2000 has been desperate.

    Our growth rate over that period, 2% p.a., is nothing remarkable. Italy's has been 0.5% p.a.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Sean_F said:

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
    What's wrong with British exceptionalism?

    All countries are exceptional.
    We must all be standardised European zeks.

    It's ironic that someone who claims to love Europe cant accept its variety.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,623

    I think “more powerful than us” is overstating things, but it’s probably true within the rather crucial context we are discussing.

    Britain is savagely weakened by leaving the EU. It becomes a trade taker rather than a trade (rule) maker. It takes a poorer path, too, with the commensurate loss of influence that implies. Finally there is the literally existential threat posed by Celtic independence.

    A reasonable Brexit outcome sees Britain (or England) falling to down the table - closer to an Italy. Still a player, but largely ignored on the big issues.

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.
    whats the problem ?

    we are the 21st ranked country worldwide by population in 2019. By end of the centrury well be about number 50 as African and Asian countries overtake us. Nobody will be much interested in our values or indeed Europes. Theres a new global order on the make and its time we adapted ourselves to it.
    Population is not power, or Indonesia would be a heavyweight and Israel an irrelevance.
    Up to a point, Lord Copper. But Indonesia is in the G20 and GDP ranks at 16 vs Israel at 34. Its also the fourth most populous country on the planet and a secular democracy which has more Muslims than Saudi, Turkey and Egypt combined....
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
    All the surveys on attitudes to immigrants invariably have the UK as generally somewhat more tolerant than our neighbours.
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    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,781

    Sean_F said:

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
    What's wrong with British exceptionalism?

    All countries are exceptional.
    We must all be standardised European zeks.

    It's ironic that someone who claims to love Europe cant accept its variety.
    It is perfectly logical to state that the UK makes/made an exceptional contribution to the stability of Europe, and the wider world. 52% of people who voted in 2016 have chosen to withdraw us from that role and make us a laughing stock instead.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,387
    edited August 2019

    RobD said:

    Precisely so. The English have bullied the Irish for centuries but thanks to Irish membership of the EU the boot is now on the other foot. And, to mix metaphors, the English don't like it up em.
    And their new power has got them a hard border. Nicely done. :D
    But a hard Bexit and a hard border will lead in short order to a united Ireland. Which is what the Irish Republic has always wanted.
    Im still waiting to hear whos going to pay for it.

    I take it you think the Irish are stupid ?
    It'll be like West Germany taking on East Germany, as Brexit showed voters don't always rank economic success over political desires.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056

    Sean_F said:

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
    What's wrong with British exceptionalism?

    All countries are exceptional.
    We must all be standardised European zeks.

    It's ironic that someone who claims to love Europe cant accept its variety.
    A federal Europe will not threaten the variety of Europe. Do you feel like a standardised British zek because you're a UK citizen?
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    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341

    I think “more powerful than us” is overstating things, but it’s probably true within the rather crucial context we are discussing.

    Britain is savagely weakened by leaving the EU. It becomes a trade taker rather than a trade (rule) maker. It takes a poorer path, too, with the commensurate loss of influence that implies. Finally there is the literally existential threat posed by Celtic independence.

    A reasonable Brexit outcome sees Britain (or England) falling to down the table - closer to an Italy. Still a player, but largely ignored on the big issues.

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.
    whats the problem ?

    we are the 21st ranked country worldwide by population in 2019. By end of the centrury well be about number 50 as African and Asian countries overtake us. Nobody will be much interested in our values or indeed Europes. Theres a new global order on the make and its time we adapted ourselves to it.
    Population is not power, or Indonesia would be a heavyweight and Israel an irrelevance.
    It;s no guarantee, but most of Europe will be tottering about on its Zimmerframes by 2050 and the population will drop off noticeably by 2100 that's not exactly a recipe for power projection,

    If the UN is correct there will be over 200 million Ugandans by 2100. Maybe its time to rethink our relations with them.
    How many Brexiteers will be alive in 2025, let alone 2100?
  • Options

    I think “more powerful than us” is overstating things, but it’s probably true within the rather crucial context we are discussing.

    Britain is savagely weakened by leaving the EU. It becomes a trade taker rather than a trade (rule) maker. It takes a poorer path, too, with the commensurate loss of influence that implies. Finally there is the literally existential threat posed by Celtic independence.

    A reasonable Brexit outcome sees Britain (or England) falling to down the table - closer to an Italy. Still a player, but largely ignored on the big issues.

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.
    whats the problem ?

    we are the 21st ranked country worldwide by population in 2019. By end of the centrury well be about number 50 as African and Asian countries overtake us. Nobody will be much interested in our values or indeed Europes. Theres a new global order on the make and its time we adapted ourselves to it.
    Population is not power, or Indonesia would be a heavyweight and Israel an irrelevance.
    It;s no guarantee, but most of Europe will be tottering about on its Zimmerframes by 2050 and the population will drop off noticeably by 2100 that's not exactly a recipe for power projection,

    If the UN is correct there will be over 200 million Ugandans by 2100. Maybe its time to rethink our relations with them.
    Time for some Ugandan discussions?
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    anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,578

    RobD said:

    Precisely so. The English have bullied the Irish for centuries but thanks to Irish membership of the EU the boot is now on the other foot. And, to mix metaphors, the English don't like it up em.
    And their new power has got them a hard border. Nicely done. :D
    But a hard Bexit and a hard border will lead in short order to a united Ireland. Which is what the Irish Republic has always wanted.
    Im still waiting to hear whos going to pay for it.

    I take it you think the Irish are stupid ?
    The stupid ones are those who advocate a course involving a big economic hit to the UK in order to pursue the political goal of separation from the EU but assume that the Irish will not be willing to do the same in order to achieve the political goal of a united Ireland.
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    Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,781

    RobD said:

    Precisely so. The English have bullied the Irish for centuries but thanks to Irish membership of the EU the boot is now on the other foot. And, to mix metaphors, the English don't like it up em.
    And their new power has got them a hard border. Nicely done. :D
    But a hard Bexit and a hard border will lead in short order to a united Ireland. Which is what the Irish Republic has always wanted.
    Im still waiting to hear whos going to pay for it.

    I take it you think the Irish are stupid ?
    Maybe you do, though you are the fool if that is the case. You might want to look at the Irish education system which is somewhat superior in almost every way to ours.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    edited August 2019

    Sean_F said:

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
    What's wrong with British exceptionalism?

    All countries are exceptional.
    We must all be standardised European zeks.

    It's ironic that someone who claims to love Europe cant accept its variety.
    A federal Europe will not threaten the variety of Europe. Do you feel like a standardised British zek because you're a UK citizen?
    why would I ? Ive grown up in a culture 300 years on the roll and speak the same language as my compatriots. If there is to be such a thing as a european culture t it needs time to develop and to mature at its own pace, Forcing it just causes trouble.

    Festina lente
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056

    Sean_F said:

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
    What's wrong with British exceptionalism?

    All countries are exceptional.
    We must all be standardised European zeks.

    It's ironic that someone who claims to love Europe cant accept its variety.
    It is perfectly logical to state that the UK makes/made an exceptional contribution to the stability of Europe, and the wider world. 52% of people who voted in 2016 have chosen to withdraw us from that role and make us a laughing stock instead.
    It's a fact that the UK is currently contributing to instability in Europe and the wider world. This is who we are.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,239

    DavidL said:

    The economic performance of Italy over the last 18 months is truly desperate: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/gdp-growth

    And debt is back to record levels as a share of GDP: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/government-debt-to-gdp

    Not the backdrop that most governing parties would be looking for for an election.

    Tying Italy to the header, doesn't Boris head a governing party looking for an election with a record debt to GDP ratio?
    No, our debt/GDP ratio has been falling for a couple of years now.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Sean_F said:

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
    What's wrong with British exceptionalism?

    All countries are exceptional.
    We must all be standardised European zeks.

    It's ironic that someone who claims to love Europe cant accept its variety.
    It is perfectly logical to state that the UK makes/made an exceptional contribution to the stability of Europe, and the wider world. 52% of people who voted in 2016 have chosen to withdraw us from that role and make us a laughing stock instead.
    The league of empire loyalists speaks.

    800 million Nigerians will be laughing at you by 2100
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056

    Sean_F said:

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
    What's wrong with British exceptionalism?

    All countries are exceptional.
    We must all be standardised European zeks.

    It's ironic that someone who claims to love Europe cant accept its variety.
    A federal Europe will not threaten the variety of Europe. Do you feel like a standardised British zek because you're a UK citizen?
    why would I ? Ive grown up in a culture 300 years on the roll and speak the same language as my compatriots. If there is to be such a thing as a european culture t it needs time to develop and to mature at its own pace, Forcing it just causes trouble.

    Festina lente
    European culture already is. It's you that lacks the imagination to conceive of it as anything other than homogenisation.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    RobD said:

    Precisely so. The English have bullied the Irish for centuries but thanks to Irish membership of the EU the boot is now on the other foot. And, to mix metaphors, the English don't like it up em.
    And their new power has got them a hard border. Nicely done. :D
    But a hard Bexit and a hard border will lead in short order to a united Ireland. Which is what the Irish Republic has always wanted.
    Im still waiting to hear whos going to pay for it.

    I take it you think the Irish are stupid ?
    It'll be like West Germany taking on East Germany, as Brexit showed voters don't always rank economic success over political desires.
    East West is truggling atm.

    The AfD are looking like topping the poll in the Landeswahl in Saxony and Brandenburg. The issue inst money, both places have been showered with cash. its about propsects and self respect.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    The economic performance of Italy over the last 18 months is truly desperate: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/gdp-growth

    And debt is back to record levels as a share of GDP: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/government-debt-to-gdp

    Not the backdrop that most governing parties would be looking for for an election.

    Tying Italy to the header, doesn't Boris head a governing party looking for an election with a record debt to GDP ratio?
    No, our debt/GDP ratio has been falling for a couple of years now.
    One year and by the square root of not very many, so unless ONS has changed its mind in this week's revisions, we are more or less at a recent peak and a damn sight higher than was inherited from Labour. Austerity does not work (taking us neatly back to Italy and the Eurozone).
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    RobD said:

    Precisely so. The English have bullied the Irish for centuries but thanks to Irish membership of the EU the boot is now on the other foot. And, to mix metaphors, the English don't like it up em.
    And their new power has got them a hard border. Nicely done. :D
    But a hard Bexit and a hard border will lead in short order to a united Ireland. Which is what the Irish Republic has always wanted.
    Im still waiting to hear whos going to pay for it.

    I take it you think the Irish are stupid ?
    Maybe you do, though you are the fool if that is the case. You might want to look at the Irish education system which is somewhat superior in almost every way to ours.
    I was brought up in the Irish education system and having read your post, totally agree your education is not what it could be,

    have you thought of night classes ?
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,204
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Sean_F said:

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
    What's wrong with British exceptionalism?

    All countries are exceptional.
    We must all be standardised European zeks.

    It's ironic that someone who claims to love Europe cant accept its variety.
    It is perfectly logical to state that the UK makes/made an exceptional contribution to the stability of Europe, and the wider world. 52% of people who voted in 2016 have chosen to withdraw us from that role and make us a laughing stock instead.
    It's a fact that the UK is currently contributing to instability in Europe and the wider world. This is who we are.
    lol

    who's this "we" supernat ?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    DavidL said:

    The economic performance of Italy over the last 18 months is truly desperate: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/gdp-growth

    And debt is back to record levels as a share of GDP: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/government-debt-to-gdp

    Not the backdrop that most governing parties would be looking for for an election.

    Salvini has blamed it all on Europe and a large chunk of Italians agree. He is offering to take on Brussels while the opposiition is offering more Europe.
    The truth is that neither more Europe, nor less Europe will solve Italy's malaise.

    In a previous job we had an Italian subsidiary, which accepted cash for a contract from a company in a country barred by sanctions. (They thus broke two laws - regarding sanctions and cash payments over a certain size.) This was then used to pay other suppliers in cash. The head of the unit called me to tell me about this, not because he wanted to come clean, or anything like that, but to make sure I knew about it so it could be included in his sales numbers for his bonus.

    I have another anecdote about trying to collect an unpaid debt from a large and rich corporate who, it turned out, relied on the Italian courts sometimes taking decades to enforce debts - especially when the debtor company was owned by someone with significant influence. (And this wasn't just a negotiating tactic. They simply wouldn't pay.)

    Without deep structural reform of labour markets, the legal system, and a new attitude towards corruption at all levels, Italy's economy will struggle. Combine that with appalling demographics, and a terrible debt burden, and it's hard to see Italy performing well.

    Last point: Italy would do better free of the Euro. But it would also see sky high interest rates outside the Euro to compensate for inflation and depreciating currency. The government - and people - are caught between the rocks and the ocean.

    And, of course, their politicians serve them ill. Blaming external forces is easier than admitting that Italy's problems are mostly of their own making. They could have chosen reform, as Spain and Portugal did, but that would have been painful. Instead they chose to bumble along, getting into ever worse debt, and allowing the painful stagnation to continue.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Sean_F said:

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
    What's wrong with British exceptionalism?

    All countries are exceptional.
    We must all be standardised European zeks.

    It's ironic that someone who claims to love Europe cant accept its variety.
    A federal Europe will not threaten the variety of Europe. Do you feel like a standardised British zek because you're a UK citizen?
    why would I ? Ive grown up in a culture 300 years on the roll and speak the same language as my compatriots. If there is to be such a thing as a european culture t it needs time to develop and to mature at its own pace, Forcing it just causes trouble.

    Festina lente
    European culture already is. It's you that lacks the imagination to conceive of it as anything other than homogenisation.
    really. perhaps youd like to go on the streets of Barnsley or Bautzen and explain that.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,204
    Do Labour really want a GE (part II)?

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1163756027524898816
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,204
    Except large numbers of over 40s are doing precisely that. They want No Deal and they don't care what the costs are economically or to the peace of Ireland.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,239
    That's really impressive but the airline then sacked him and replaced him with a new Chinese management team.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056

    Sean_F said:

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
    What's wrong with British exceptionalism?

    All countries are exceptional.
    We must all be standardised European zeks.

    It's ironic that someone who claims to love Europe cant accept its variety.
    A federal Europe will not threaten the variety of Europe. Do you feel like a standardised British zek because you're a UK citizen?
    why would I ? Ive grown up in a culture 300 years on the roll and speak the same language as my compatriots. If there is to be such a thing as a european culture t it needs time to develop and to mature at its own pace, Forcing it just causes trouble.

    Festina lente
    European culture already is. It's you that lacks the imagination to conceive of it as anything other than homogenisation.
    really. perhaps youd like to go on the streets of Barnsley or Bautzen and explain that.
    You think the average person from Barnsley feels much cultural affinity with your fellow Orangemen?
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    The economic performance of Italy over the last 18 months is truly desperate: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/gdp-growth

    And debt is back to record levels as a share of GDP: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/government-debt-to-gdp

    Not the backdrop that most governing parties would be looking for for an election.

    Salvini has blamed it all on Europe and a large chunk of Italians agree. He is offering to take on Brussels while the opposiition is offering more Europe.
    The truth is that neither more Europe, nor less Europe will solve Italy's malaise.

    In a previous job we had an Italian subsidiary, which accepted cash for a contract from a company in a country barred by sanctions. (They thus broke two laws - regarding sanctions and cash payments over a certain size.) This was then used to pay other suppliers in cash. The head of the unit called me to tell me about this, not because he wanted to come clean, or anything like that, but to make sure I knew about it so it could be included in his sales numbers for his bonus.

    I have another anecdote about trying to collect an unpaid debt from a large and rich corporate who, it turned out, relied on the Italian courts sometimes taking decades to enforce debts - especially when the debtor company was owned by someone with significant influence. (And this wasn't just a negotiating tactic. They simply wouldn't pay.)

    Without deep structural reform of labour markets, the legal system, and a new attitude towards corruption at all levels, Italy's economy will struggle. Combine that with appalling demographics, and a terrible debt burden, and it's hard to see Italy performing well.

    Last point: Italy would do better free of the Euro. But it would also see sky high interest rates outside the Euro to compensate for inflation and depreciating currency. The government - and people - are caught between the rocks and the ocean.

    And, of course, their politicians serve them ill. Blaming external forces is easier than admitting that Italy's problems are mostly of their own making. They could have chosen reform, as Spain and Portugal did, but that would have been painful. Instead they chose to bumble along, getting into ever worse debt, and allowing the painful stagnation to continue.
    The only thing which might give italy a chance is leaving the Euro, then it can go back to competitive devaluations. But I agree it needs serious structural reform and lets pretend the demographics can get better.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    edited August 2019
    Please can we not have yet more of this statement that 'current Scottish polling has the Tory position north of the border looking dire' as it is not correct, the latest Yougov poll has the Tories on 23% in Scotland in a clear second place and Opinium and Survation also have the Tories on 20%+. Given the Tories only got 15% in Scotland as recently as 2015 when they won a majority of UK seats and would hold around half their Scottish seats on current polling I would suggest that is far from dire for team Davidson.

    Scottish Labour however is polling under 20% on every poll (SLab got 24% even in 2015 and 27% in 2017) and in the odd poll has even fallen behind the Scottish LDs and would lose every Labour seat in Scotland bar Edinburgh South on current polls.

    So whiile it would be correct to say the situation is dire for Scottish Labour it is far from dire for the Scottish Tories
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
    It doesn’t. Brexit is a betrayal of British tradition, not its apotheosis.
    Perhaps your view of Britain was rose-tinted. If you were right, this wouldn't be happening.
    That’s a circular argument.

    My point is simply that, to the extent that the U.K. has helped maintain a liberal order in Europe (and to a much lesser degree globally), our ability to do so is significantly weakened by leaving the EU.

    If you don’t (any many don’t) believe the U.K. influence as any particular merit to it, then you won’t much care. Weirdly, many Brexiters seem to fall into this category, despite covering themselves with the flag (a red, white and blue Brexit indeed).
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    edited August 2019
    Looks like it could end up a choice between Clarke and Boris as PM and whether the LDs hold the balance of power and back Clarke or it is a Tory majority with Boris and Corbyn out of it on those numbers
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Sean_F said:

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
    What's wrong with British exceptionalism?

    All countries are exceptional.
    We must all be standardised European zeks.

    It's ironic that someone who claims to love Europe cant accept its variety.
    A federal Europe will not threaten the variety of Europe. Do you feel like a standardised British zek because you're a UK citizen?
    why would I ? Ive grown up in a culture 300 years on the roll and speak the same language as my compatriots. If there is to be such a thing as a european culture t it needs time to develop and to mature at its own pace, Forcing it just causes trouble.

    Festina lente
    European culture already is. It's you that lacks the imagination to conceive of it as anything other than homogenisation.
    really. perhaps youd like to go on the streets of Barnsley or Bautzen and explain that.
    You think the average person from Barnsley feels much cultural affinity with your fellow Orangemen?
    https://sluggerotoole.com/2015/07/23/people-are-not-clubbable-any-more-a-south-yorkshire-orangeman-speaks/
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    edited August 2019

    I think “more powerful than us” is overstating things, but it’s probably true within the rather crucial context we are discussing.

    Britain is savagely weakened by leaving the EU. It becomes a trade taker rather than a trade (rule) maker. It takes a poorer path, too, with the commensurate loss of influence that implies. Finally there is the literally existential threat posed by Celtic independence.

    A reasonable Brexit outcome sees Britain (or England) falling to down the table - closer to an Italy. Still a player, but largely ignored on the big issues.

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.
    whats the problem ?

    we are the 21st ranked country worldwide by population in 2019. By end of the centrury well be about number 50 as African and Asian countries overtake us. Nobody will be much interested in our values or indeed Europes. Theres a new global order on the make and its time we adapted ourselves to it.
    Population is not power, or Indonesia would be a heavyweight and Israel an irrelevance.
    It;s no guarantee, but most of Europe will be tottering about on its Zimmerframes by 2050 and the population will drop off noticeably by 2100 that's not exactly a recipe for power projection,

    If the UN is correct there will be over 200 million Ugandans by 2100. Maybe its time to rethink our relations with them.
    Even by 2100 I expect the UK (or even just England), France and Germany to be still in the G20 even if Nigeria and Uganda join them, the UK and French populations are also still growing even if less fast than Africa, it is the likes of Italy, Germany and Japan and Russia seeing population decline
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    HYUFD said:

    Please can we not have yet more of this statement that 'current Scottish polling has the Tory position north of the border looking dire' as it is not correct, the latest Yougov poll has the Tories on 23% in Scotland in a clear second place and Opinium and Survation also have the Tories on 20%+. Given the Tories only got 15% in Scotland as recently as 2015 when they won a majority of UK seats and would hold around half their Scottish seats on current polling I would suggest that is far from dire for team Davidson.

    Scottish Labour however is polling under 20% on every poll (SLab got 24% even in 2015 and 27% in 2017) and in the odd poll has even fallen behind the Scottish LDs and would lose every Labour seat in Scotland bar Edinburgh South on current polls.

    So whiile it would be correct to say the situation is dire for Scottish Labour it is far from dire for the Scottish Tories

    Those are sub samples you are quoting right?
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,525

    Except large numbers of over 40s are doing precisely that. They want No Deal and they don't care what the costs are economically or to the peace of Ireland.
    Tim Farron is conveniently forgetting that most Tories voted for TMs deal, which would have respected the GFA, and most Lib Dems did not, which helped greatly increase the chance of No Deal.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    edited August 2019
    DavidL said:

    The economic performance of Italy over the last 18 months is truly desperate: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/gdp-growth

    And debt is back to record levels as a share of GDP: https://tradingeconomics.com/italy/government-debt-to-gdp

    Not the backdrop that most governing parties would be looking for for an election.

    Five Star will likely collapse from first to third and Lega rise from third to first with PD holding second if Conte's resignation leads to an autumn general election with Salvini PM supported by Berlusconi with Forza Italia currently in opposition
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    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,525

    Sean_F said:

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
    What's wrong with British exceptionalism?

    All countries are exceptional.
    We must all be standardised European zeks.

    It's ironic that someone who claims to love Europe cant accept its variety.
    It is perfectly logical to state that the UK makes/made an exceptional contribution to the stability of Europe, and the wider world. 52% of people who voted in 2016 have chosen to withdraw us from that role and make us a laughing stock instead.
    There are members of the EU who choose not to be in NATO. Perhaps it is they, not the UK, who are not quite making the necessary contribution to the stability of Europe.
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    HYUFD said:

    Looks like it could end up a choice between Clarke and Boris as PM and whether the LDs hold the balance of power and back Clarke or it is a Tory majority with Boris and Corbyn out of it on those numbers
    What has happened to a nailed on Boris majority you have predicted for so long, even PM Farage
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    HYUFD said:

    I think “more powerful than us” is overstating things, but it’s probably true within the rather crucial context we are discussing.

    Britain is savagely weakened by leaving the EU. It becomes a trade taker rather than a trade (rule) maker. It takes a poorer path, too, with the commensurate loss of influence that implies. Finally there is the literally existential threat posed by Celtic independence.

    A reasonable Brexit outcome sees Britain (or England) falling to down the table - closer to an Italy. Still a player, but largely ignored on the big issues.

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.
    whats the problem ?

    we are the 21st ranked country worldwide by population in 2019. By end of the centrury well be about number 50 as African and Asian countries overtake us. Nobody will be much interested in our values or indeed Europes. Theres a new global order on the make and its time we adapted ourselves to it.
    Population is not power, or Indonesia would be a heavyweight and Israel an irrelevance.
    It;s no guarantee, but most of Europe will be tottering about on its Zimmerframes by 2050 and the population will drop off noticeably by 2100 that's not exactly a recipe for power projection,

    If the UN is correct there will be over 200 million Ugandans by 2100. Maybe its time to rethink our relations with them.
    Even by 2100 I expect the UK (or even just England), France and Germany to be still in the G20 even if Nigeria and Uganda join them, the UK and French populations are also still growing even if less fast than Africa, it is the likes of Italy, Germany and Japan and Russia seeing population decline
    who can say ? But as @rcs1000 rightly points out demographics will have a huge impact. Older people consume less so european GDP will slack off.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056

    Sean_F said:

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
    What's wrong with British exceptionalism?

    All countries are exceptional.
    We must all be standardised European zeks.

    It's ironic that someone who claims to love Europe cant accept its variety.
    A federal Europe will not threaten the variety of Europe. Do you feel like a standardised British zek because you're a UK citizen?
    why would I ? Ive grown up in a culture 300 years on the roll and speak the same language as my compatriots. If there is to be such a thing as a european culture t it needs time to develop and to mature at its own pace, Forcing it just causes trouble.

    Festina lente
    European culture already is. It's you that lacks the imagination to conceive of it as anything other than homogenisation.
    really. perhaps youd like to go on the streets of Barnsley or Bautzen and explain that.
    You think the average person from Barnsley feels much cultural affinity with your fellow Orangemen?
    https://sluggerotoole.com/2015/07/23/people-are-not-clubbable-any-more-a-south-yorkshire-orangeman-speaks/
    You see. You'll find isolated pockets of niche European cultures in the most unlikely places.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Sean_F said:

    Someone will be along shortly to suggest I somehow hanker after Empire. I don’t. I merely note that a (relatively) weaker Britain means a (relatively) stronger Russia, and relatively stronger German/French leadership of the EU - neither of us which is particularly appetising to me from a small c, liberal perspective.

    This attitude betrays a sense of British exceptionalism. How does the idea that Britain is a bulwark of liberalism on the European continent stack up against the experience of the last three years?
    What's wrong with British exceptionalism?

    All countries are exceptional.
    We must all be standardised European zeks.

    It's ironic that someone who claims to love Europe cant accept its variety.
    A federal Europe will not threaten the variety of Europe. Do you feel like a standardised British zek because you're a UK citizen?
    why would I ? Ive grown up in a culture 300 years on the roll and speak the same language as my compatriots. If there is to be such a thing as a european culture t it needs time to develop and to mature at its own pace, Forcing it just causes trouble.

    Festina lente
    European culture already is. It's you that lacks the imagination to conceive of it as anything other than homogenisation.
    really. perhaps youd like to go on the streets of Barnsley or Bautzen and explain that.
    You think the average person from Barnsley feels much cultural affinity with your fellow Orangemen?
    https://sluggerotoole.com/2015/07/23/people-are-not-clubbable-any-more-a-south-yorkshire-orangeman-speaks/
    You see. You'll find isolated pockets of niche European cultures in the most unlikely places.
    thats the rich variety we all love. No need to standarise it, The rise of Europe was mostly due to competiton between its states and cities.
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    Shocking

    Average solicitor earns almost £10,000 less than a train driver

    https://www.legalcheek.com/2019/08/average-solicitor-earns-almost-10000-less-than-a-train-driver/
This discussion has been closed.