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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The first YouGov for a fortnight sees CON/LAB/LD holding prett

SystemSystem Posts: 11,005
edited August 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The first YouGov for a fortnight sees CON/LAB/LD holding pretty firm

New @YouGov poll for the Times has little changeCON 30 -1LAB 21 -1LD 20-1BREX 14=GRN+113-14 Aug

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  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822
    Evening all :)

    Probably not first but that's still a 13% swing from Conservative to Lib Dem which will be higher in the LD target seats.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822
    Also worth mentioning a 15% swing from Labour to Lib Dem on these numbers. I can't see the LDs getting a 15% swing off Stephen Timms - UNS doesn't tell anywhere near the full story with swings of this size.
  • Options
    Who are the 14% Brexit Party respondents ?
    Don't like BJ
    Don't trust BJ
    Protest voters that would never vote Tory.

    Will they fall in line in an election is called with a date after 31st October 2019 ?
    Will Nigel instruct them to fall in line?

    Would be ironic if the Brexit Party actually played a key role in toppling the party the delivered on their only reason for existence.
  • Options
    Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    I still don't get how a government explicitly designed to exclude the largest party from power can count as a government of "unity".
  • Options

    Who are the 14% Brexit Party respondents ?
    Don't like BJ
    Don't trust BJ
    Protest voters that would never vote Tory.

    Will they fall in line in an election is called with a date after 31st October 2019 ?
    Will Nigel instruct them to fall in line?

    Would be ironic if the Brexit Party actually played a key role in toppling the party the delivered on their only reason for existence.

    I've never met a man who didn't like a BJ.

    Where's my coat and apologies for lowering the tone.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822
    As we saw in 1997, a national swing of 10% from Conservative to Labour obscured seats captured with much bigger swings as indeed did the notional swing from Conservative to LD of just 5% which missed some other seats taken with much bigger swings.

    UNS has to be treated with extreme caution with this kind of vote change.
  • Options
    Awb683Awb683 Posts: 80
    Boris has the political will to get Brexit done.
  • Options
    Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    How much higher do the Lib Dems need to poll than Labour to overtake them in seats?
  • Options
    This is worse news than the shit show that is Brexit.

    Fucking hell, sort it out Disney/Sony

    Spider-Man reportedly out of MCU after Disney, Sony fail to reach deal.

    https://www.polygon.com/2019/8/20/20825600/spider-man-mcu-sony-disney
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    edited August 2019
    Electoral Calculus gives Boris a Tory majority of 40 on the new Yougov poll.

    Tories 345 (biggest Tory seat total since Thatcher in 1987), Labour 193 (lowest Labour seat total since 1935 and lowest Labour voteshare since 1918), LDs 53 (highest LD seat total since 2010).

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?CON=30&LAB=21+&LIB=20+&Brexit=14+&Green=8&UKIP=1&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVBrexit=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=&SCOTLAB=&SCOTLIB=&SCOTBrexit=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2017base
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822
    Gabs2 said:

    I still don't get how a government explicitly designed to exclude the largest party from power can count as a government of "unity".

    There are many examples of Governments being formed which exclude the largest party especially in other countries. The current NZ Government is a prime example - National won most votes and seats but Labour-NZ First formed a coalition which had a majority.

    It tends not to happen here - it might have done in 1992 had only a relatively small number of votes dropped differently.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Gabs2 said:

    I still don't get how a government explicitly designed to exclude the largest party from power can count as a government of "unity".

    In the same way that a Peoples’ Vote only refers to the chance to ignore the people’s original vote

    A word “means just what I choose it to mean - neither more or less”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumpty
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822
    Awb683 said:

    Boris has the political will to get Brexit done.

    If you mean he has to because if he doesn't his career will be destroyed and the Conservative Party will be destroyed with it, then you're probably right.

    That's the thing about self-preservation and making hostages to fortune - the consequences of not delivering tend to be extreme.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,503
    Gabs2 said:

    I still don't get how a government explicitly designed to exclude the largest party from power can count as a government of "unity".

    It is proposed to include quite a number of Tories, including Ken Clarke as leader.
  • Options
    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870
    Gabs2 said:

    How much higher do the Lib Dems need to poll than Labour to overtake them in seats?

    Who knows - UNS is bust - but I believe 25% is generally believed to be the tipping point for serious LD gains.
  • Options
    dodradedodrade Posts: 595
    stodge said:

    Gabs2 said:

    I still don't get how a government explicitly designed to exclude the largest party from power can count as a government of "unity".

    There are many examples of Governments being formed which exclude the largest party especially in other countries. The current NZ Government is a prime example - National won most votes and seats but Labour-NZ First formed a coalition which had a majority.

    It tends not to happen here - it might have done in 1992 had only a relatively small number of votes dropped differently.
    When Gordon Brown tried to hang on in 2010 with Lib Dem support the idea was quickly branded a "coalition of the losers".
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606

    This is worse news than the shit show that is Brexit.

    Fucking hell, sort it out Disney/Sony

    Spider-Man reportedly out of MCU after Disney, Sony fail to reach deal.

    https://www.polygon.com/2019/8/20/20825600/spider-man-mcu-sony-disney

    Disney asked for 50% revshare and for non Spider-Man marvel characters to be included. It was only ever going to end one way. I expect Disney will come back with a much more realistic demand and this gets sorted before the next Spider-Man movie goes into production.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,503
    Gabs2 said:

    How much higher do the Lib Dems need to poll than Labour to overtake them in seats?

    I think the crossover point for Labour is in the mid teens. Above that they win 150+ seats, because of their concentrated vote.

    There are few 3 way marginals though, in most seats it is pretty clear who is best placed to unseat the Tories.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,899
    HYUFD said:

    Electoral Calculus gives Boris a Tory majority of 40 on the new Yougov poll.

    Tories 345 (biggest Tory seat total since Thatcher in 1987), Labour 193 (lowest Labour seat total since 1935 and lowest Labour voteshare since 1918), LDs 53 (highest LD seat total since 2010).

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?CON=30&LAB=21+&LIB=20+&Brexit=14+&Green=8&UKIP=1&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVBrexit=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=&SCOTLAB=&SCOTLIB=&SCOTBrexit=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2017base

    Slightly pissed, obviously anxious, and borderline ill by the evidence of ITV News.

    Time to step down.
  • Options
    Looks like we have lived through peak Johnson bounce. Can he hold on to the support he has as the nights close in and No Deal day approaches?
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Gabs2 said:

    How much higher do the Lib Dems need to poll than Labour to overtake them in seats?

    I think the crossover point for Labour is in the mid teens. Above that they win 150+ seats, because of their concentrated vote.

    There are few 3 way marginals though, in most seats it is pretty clear who is best placed to unseat the Tories.

    Yep, that’s why the consistent 50%+ for anti-No Deal parties should concern those who do not just support Tory FC - especially as the BXP vote remains stubbornly high.

  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,503

    HYUFD said:

    Electoral Calculus gives Boris a Tory majority of 40 on the new Yougov poll.

    Tories 345 (biggest Tory seat total since Thatcher in 1987), Labour 193 (lowest Labour seat total since 1935 and lowest Labour voteshare since 1918), LDs 53 (highest LD seat total since 2010).

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?CON=30&LAB=21+&LIB=20+&Brexit=14+&Green=8&UKIP=1&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVBrexit=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=&SCOTLAB=&SCOTLIB=&SCOTBrexit=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2017base

    Slightly pissed, obviously anxious, and borderline ill by the evidence of ITV News.

    Time to step down.
    Yes his forced smirk is quite a giveaway. He knows he is out of his depth, and his bluffing bluster won't work on his European tour over the next few days. Merkel and Macron can see right through that bullshit.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    Looks like we have lived through peak Johnson bounce. Can he hold on to the support he has as the nights close in and No Deal day approaches?

    We haven't even had a PM Boris "gaffe" yet.
  • Options
    From earlier today

    As you well know (since you claim to be an economist), trade intensity is highly correlated with geographic proximity.

    Europe is 6% of population, and less than 20% of global GDP but in practical terms represents a much higher % of realistic trading opportunity for the U.K.

    No surprise therefore that EU is around 50% of our total trade, and about that the value of this trade is THREE times that with the US.

    Of course, we should be positioning ourselves for opportunities in Asia Pacific, while also understanding that the US, China and India in no way represent easy FTAs, AND that there is no opportunity on the table that can somehow make up for jettisoning those with our European neighbours.

    With your glib numbers, you effectively lie about the importance of the EU to our economic, and you lie about the size of the non-EU “prize”.

    Yes trade intensity is highly correlated with geographic proximity, however that is not all it correlates to. Furthermore technological progress as we proceed through the 21st century is making geographic proximity less and less important than it used to be. Technological progress is only going to proceed in one direction realistically, the world is getting smaller and transport is getting easier.

    Which is demonstrable by the fact that even though we have EU membership and even though we don't have trade deals with major non-EU economies, EU trade is less than half [not around half as you claimed] and falling. It used to be half, it used to be more than half, but that is not true anymore.

    If we were trading on a level playing field between the EU and the rest of the world it is quite plausible that the EU would form a third or less of our trade within a decade.
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,800
    edited August 2019
    Good grief. I've been getting up to date on the Italian polls and projections, Salvini led ""centre right"" grouping, comprising Lega, the corpse of Forza Italia and hardcore FdI looking at a majority nearing 200 on around 50% of the vote. I imagined they would have eased a little since the Euros.
  • Options
    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    From earlier today

    As you well know (since you claim to be an economist), trade intensity is highly correlated with geographic proximity.

    Europe is 6% of population, and less than 20% of global GDP but in practical terms represents a much higher % of realistic trading opportunity for the U.K.

    No surprise therefore that EU is around 50% of our total trade, and about that the value of this trade is THREE times that with the US.

    Of course, we should be positioning ourselves for opportunities in Asia Pacific, while also understanding that the US, China and India in no way represent easy FTAs, AND that there is no opportunity on the table that can somehow make up for jettisoning those with our European neighbours.

    With your glib numbers, you effectively lie about the importance of the EU to our economic, and you lie about the size of the non-EU “prize”.

    Yes trade intensity is highly correlated with geographic proximity, however that is not all it correlates to. Furthermore technological progress as we proceed through the 21st century is making geographic proximity less and less important than it used to be. Technological progress is only going to proceed in one direction realistically, the world is getting smaller and transport is getting easier.

    Which is demonstrable by the fact that even though we have EU membership and even though we don't have trade deals with major non-EU economies, EU trade is less than half [not around half as you claimed] and falling. It used to be half, it used to be more than half, but that is not true anymore.

    If we were trading on a level playing field between the EU and the rest of the world it is quite plausible that the EU would form a third or less of our trade within a decade.
    The EU is also protectionist and encourages intra EU trade in every way that it can.
  • Options
    From earlier today
    DougSeal said:

    We aren't talking about abrogation.

    The Irish explicitly agreed to the introduction of Article 50 when they ratified it.

    The letter of the law in Lisbon was ratified after and takes precedence over the spirit of the law of the GFA.

    You've moved the goalposts. We're talking about Brexit/ You said they "permitted Brexit" when they did no such thing. Brexit was always possible - Lisbon just introduced a new mechanism

    And why does Lisbon take legal precdence? I've been a qualified lawyer for 20 years and am always looking for novel legal principles to explore and it looks like you've found one.
    In a later post @DougSeal claims "Accordingly, contrary to @Philip_Thompson 's assertion, my view is that the GFA takes precedence and the UK is in breach by enacting domestic legislation potentially in breach of it."

    IANAL but I will give you 4 reasons why I think you are wrong.

    1: Brexit is specifically covered by Article 50 of Lisbon so it is the more relevant law.
    2: Article 50 of Lisbon was passed more recently.
    3: Article 50 of Lisbon is the explicit letter of the law, while the GFA is more about the vague "spirit of the law".

    However most damning is 4: If that's your view take it before the Supreme Court or the European Court of Justice and argue why Brexit is illegal. Because if you've found a reason why it is illegal that will terminate the whole debate if they rule it so. Why hasn't anyone already done so.

    Although not a primary part of the case, the GFA and Ireland was touched upon in the Miller case before the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court ruled that Parliament could invoke Article 50.

    So therefore given that the Supreme Court ruled that Parliament could invoke Article 50, and given that Parliament has authorised Article 50's invocation I'm going to go along with Parliament and the Supreme Court and not your supposition that Article 50's invocation was lawful.

    Still think otherwise? Why argue with me? Take your case before the Supreme Court or ECJ and put this matter to bed. I'm sure you could find sponsors if you have a solid legal argument behind you.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Electoral Calculus gives Boris a Tory majority of 40 on the new Yougov poll.

    Tories 345 (biggest Tory seat total since Thatcher in 1987), Labour 193 (lowest Labour seat total since 1935 and lowest Labour voteshare since 1918), LDs 53 (highest LD seat total since 2010).

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?CON=30&LAB=21+&LIB=20+&Brexit=14+&Green=8&UKIP=1&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVBrexit=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=&SCOTLAB=&SCOTLIB=&SCOTBrexit=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2017base

    Slightly pissed, obviously anxious, and borderline ill by the evidence of ITV News.

    Time to step down.
    Yes his forced smirk is quite a giveaway. He knows he is out of his depth, and his bluffing bluster won't work on his European tour over the next few days. Merkel and Macron can see right through that bullshit.
    What is Merkel and Macron and Varadkar's insurance policy if we have no deal?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937

    HYUFD said:

    Electoral Calculus gives Boris a Tory majority of 40 on the new Yougov poll.

    Tories 345 (biggest Tory seat total since Thatcher in 1987), Labour 193 (lowest Labour seat total since 1935 and lowest Labour voteshare since 1918), LDs 53 (highest LD seat total since 2010).

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?CON=30&LAB=21+&LIB=20+&Brexit=14+&Green=8&UKIP=1&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVBrexit=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=&SCOTLAB=&SCOTLIB=&SCOTBrexit=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2017base

    Slightly pissed, obviously anxious, and borderline ill by the evidence of ITV News.

    Time to step down.
    Heading for the biggest Tory triumph since Thatcher on tonight's poll Boris is obviously going nowhere
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Electoral Calculus gives Boris a Tory majority of 40 on the new Yougov poll.

    Tories 345 (biggest Tory seat total since Thatcher in 1987), Labour 193 (lowest Labour seat total since 1935 and lowest Labour voteshare since 1918), LDs 53 (highest LD seat total since 2010).

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?CON=30&LAB=21+&LIB=20+&Brexit=14+&Green=8&UKIP=1&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVBrexit=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=&SCOTLAB=&SCOTLIB=&SCOTBrexit=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2017base

    Slightly pissed, obviously anxious, and borderline ill by the evidence of ITV News.

    Time to step down.
    Yes his forced smirk is quite a giveaway. He knows he is out of his depth, and his bluffing bluster won't work on his European tour over the next few days. Merkel and Macron can see right through that bullshit.
    What is Merkel and Macron and Varadkar's insurance policy if we have no deal?
    WTO tariffs on all our exports...
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,503

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Electoral Calculus gives Boris a Tory majority of 40 on the new Yougov poll.

    Tories 345 (biggest Tory seat total since Thatcher in 1987), Labour 193 (lowest Labour seat total since 1935 and lowest Labour voteshare since 1918), LDs 53 (highest LD seat total since 2010).

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?CON=30&LAB=21+&LIB=20+&Brexit=14+&Green=8&UKIP=1&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVBrexit=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=&SCOTLAB=&SCOTLIB=&SCOTBrexit=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2017base

    Slightly pissed, obviously anxious, and borderline ill by the evidence of ITV News.

    Time to step down.
    Yes his forced smirk is quite a giveaway. He knows he is out of his depth, and his bluffing bluster won't work on his European tour over the next few days. Merkel and Macron can see right through that bullshit.
    What is Merkel and Macron and Varadkar's insurance policy if we have no deal?
    They don't need one. They just wait as the UK crumbles.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845

    From earlier today

    As you well know (since you claim to be an economist), trade intensity is highly correlated with geographic proximity.

    Europe is 6% of population, and less than 20% of global GDP but in practical terms represents a much higher % of realistic trading opportunity for the U.K.

    No surprise therefore that EU is around 50% of our total trade, and about that the value of this trade is THREE times that with the US.

    Of course, we should be positioning ourselves for opportunities in Asia Pacific, while also understanding that the US, China and India in no way represent easy FTAs, AND that there is no opportunity on the table that can somehow make up for jettisoning those with our European neighbours.

    With your glib numbers, you effectively lie about the importance of the EU to our economic, and you lie about the size of the non-EU “prize”.

    Yes trade intensity is highly correlated with geographic proximity, however that is not all it correlates to. Furthermore technological progress as we proceed through the 21st century is making geographic proximity less and less important than it used to be. Technological progress is only going to proceed in one direction realistically, the world is getting smaller and transport is getting easier.

    Which is demonstrable by the fact that even though we have EU membership and even though we don't have trade deals with major non-EU economies, EU trade is less than half [not around half as you claimed] and falling. It used to be half, it used to be more than half, but that is not true anymore.

    If we were trading on a level playing field between the EU and the rest of the world it is quite plausible that the EU would form a third or less of our trade within a decade.
    U.K. exports less than 50% by value to the EU, but imports more than 50%. So I called it 50%. Yes of course it is falling, it is down about 5-10% over the past twenty years.

    You failed to address my actual points, however. Geographic proximity might in theory be trending less important, but there’s no evidence of that showing up in actual trade data.

    In fact, in some respects proximity seems to be becoming *more* important for economic growth in general (ie new economic geography).
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940

    Who are the 14% Brexit Party respondents ?
    Don't like BJ
    Don't trust BJ
    Protest voters that would never vote Tory.

    Will they fall in line in an election is called with a date after 31st October 2019 ?
    Will Nigel instruct them to fall in line?

    Would be ironic if the Brexit Party actually played a key role in toppling the party the delivered on their only reason for existence.

    Would assume a goodly number are ex-Labour, rather than protest voters. Which probably precludes them from being merely added to the Tory share whatever Nige may say.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    Pro_Rata said:

    Good grief. I've been getting up to date on the Italian polls and projections, Salvini led ""centre right"" grouping, comprising Lega, the corpse of Forza Italia and hardcore FdI looking at a majority nearing 200 on around 50% of the vote. I imagined they would have eased a little since the Euros.

    Salvini and Boris win in the autumn then join Trump as 3/7 of the G7 is led by the populist right, in Canada too touch and go whether Trudeau can hold back the conservatives there as well in November
  • Options
    DruttDrutt Posts: 1,093
    Four-in-ten* of us think a GNU is a good idea, until we're asked who leads it, after which we kinda recognise it's a non-starter. The interesting point is that two in three of us* say LOTO is a really, really bad choice to lead it.

    This ought to make a GE more likely, but I think Boris is too new to risk it.

    Good to see TSE recognise that any no deal disruption is less significant than which superhero turns up in Marvel's next Saturday afternoon timepasser, though .

    *Moe obviously
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,503
    dixiedean said:

    Who are the 14% Brexit Party respondents ?
    Don't like BJ
    Don't trust BJ
    Protest voters that would never vote Tory.

    Will they fall in line in an election is called with a date after 31st October 2019 ?
    Will Nigel instruct them to fall in line?

    Would be ironic if the Brexit Party actually played a key role in toppling the party the delivered on their only reason for existence.

    Would assume a goodly number are ex-Labour, rather than protest voters. Which probably precludes them from being merely added to the Tory share whatever Nige may say.
    I think that they are hardcore never-Tories. Otherwise they would be behind Bozo.
  • Options
    stodge said:

    Awb683 said:

    Boris has the political will to get Brexit done.

    If you mean he has to because if he doesn't his career will be destroyed and the Conservative Party will be destroyed with it, then you're probably right.

    That's the thing about self-preservation and making hostages to fortune - the consequences of not delivering tend to be extreme.
    Good. That's the same thing by other words isn't it?

    Boris has no choice but to deliver Brexit 'deal or no deal, do or die'.

    Neither would May or Hunt but they just weren't self-aware enough to realise it. Which is why May failed and why Hunt lost. Boris is intelligent about this not stupid.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Electoral Calculus gives Boris a Tory majority of 40 on the new Yougov poll.

    Tories 345 (biggest Tory seat total since Thatcher in 1987), Labour 193 (lowest Labour seat total since 1935 and lowest Labour voteshare since 1918), LDs 53 (highest LD seat total since 2010).

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?CON=30&LAB=21+&LIB=20+&Brexit=14+&Green=8&UKIP=1&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVBrexit=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=&SCOTLAB=&SCOTLIB=&SCOTBrexit=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2017base

    Slightly pissed, obviously anxious, and borderline ill by the evidence of ITV News.

    Time to step down.
    Yes his forced smirk is quite a giveaway. He knows he is out of his depth, and his bluffing bluster won't work on his European tour over the next few days. Merkel and Macron can see right through that bullshit.
    What is Merkel and Macron and Varadkar's insurance policy if we have no deal?
    They don't need one. They just wait as the UK crumbles.
    And when the UK doesn't crumble?
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,899
    edited August 2019
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Electoral Calculus gives Boris a Tory majority of 40 on the new Yougov poll.

    Tories 345 (biggest Tory seat total since Thatcher in 1987), Labour 193 (lowest Labour seat total since 1935 and lowest Labour voteshare since 1918), LDs 53 (highest LD seat total since 2010).

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?CON=30&LAB=21+&LIB=20+&Brexit=14+&Green=8&UKIP=1&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVBrexit=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=&SCOTLAB=&SCOTLIB=&SCOTBrexit=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2017base

    Slightly pissed, obviously anxious, and borderline ill by the evidence of ITV News.

    Time to step down.
    Heading for the biggest Tory triumph since Thatcher on tonight's poll Boris is obviously going nowhere
    He is indeed going nowhere.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    Looking forward to seeing Boris and Trump at the G7. I hope some journalists are going to quote some of Trump's recent statements and ask Boris what he thinks of them.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Electoral Calculus gives Boris a Tory majority of 40 on the new Yougov poll.

    Tories 345 (biggest Tory seat total since Thatcher in 1987), Labour 193 (lowest Labour seat total since 1935 and lowest Labour voteshare since 1918), LDs 53 (highest LD seat total since 2010).

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?CON=30&LAB=21+&LIB=20+&Brexit=14+&Green=8&UKIP=1&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVBrexit=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=&SCOTLAB=&SCOTLIB=&SCOTBrexit=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2017base

    Slightly pissed, obviously anxious, and borderline ill by the evidence of ITV News.

    Time to step down.
    Heading for the biggest Tory triumph since Thatcher on tonight's poll Boris is obviously going nowhere
    This may well be so. However, I would argue, that a majority on 30% of the vote, with a looming, overdue world recession, even ignoring Brexit, would not be a recipe for stable or successful government.
  • Options

    U.K. exports less than 50% by value to the EU, but imports more than 50%. So I called it 50%. Yes of course it is falling, it is down about 5-10% over the past twenty years.

    You failed to address my actual points, however. Geographic proximity might in theory be trending less important, but there’s no evidence of that showing up in actual trade data.

    In fact, in some respects proximity seems to be becoming *more* important for economic growth in general (ie new economic geography).

    I was bothered by our exports. The fact we're trading on very generous zero-tariff, zero-quota terms with the EU of course means we import more from them than we do with the rest of the world the protectionist EU has left us without a deal with. That doesn't mean geography is behind all of that.

    I did address the actual points. I'm curious about there being no evidence of that showing up in actual trade data when you confirmed my point that the EU as a share of UK trade is falling.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,899
    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Good grief. I've been getting up to date on the Italian polls and projections, Salvini led ""centre right"" grouping, comprising Lega, the corpse of Forza Italia and hardcore FdI looking at a majority nearing 200 on around 50% of the vote. I imagined they would have eased a little since the Euros.

    Salvini and Boris win in the autumn then join Trump as 3/7 of the G7 is led by the populist right, in Canada too touch and go whether Trudeau can hold back the conservatives there as well in November
    Your bizarre progression from mildly centre-right cerebral soft Tory moderate to unthinking hard right Trumpton is completely fucking depressing.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,503

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Electoral Calculus gives Boris a Tory majority of 40 on the new Yougov poll.

    Tories 345 (biggest Tory seat total since Thatcher in 1987), Labour 193 (lowest Labour seat total since 1935 and lowest Labour voteshare since 1918), LDs 53 (highest LD seat total since 2010).

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?CON=30&LAB=21+&LIB=20+&Brexit=14+&Green=8&UKIP=1&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVBrexit=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=&SCOTLAB=&SCOTLIB=&SCOTBrexit=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2017base

    Slightly pissed, obviously anxious, and borderline ill by the evidence of ITV News.

    Time to step down.
    Yes his forced smirk is quite a giveaway. He knows he is out of his depth, and his bluffing bluster won't work on his European tour over the next few days. Merkel and Macron can see right through that bullshit.
    What is Merkel and Macron and Varadkar's insurance policy if we have no deal?
    They don't need one. They just wait as the UK crumbles.
    And when the UK doesn't crumble?
    No Deal has only a minority of UK voters behind it, and that will shrink further.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Electoral Calculus gives Boris a Tory majority of 40 on the new Yougov poll.

    Tories 345 (biggest Tory seat total since Thatcher in 1987), Labour 193 (lowest Labour seat total since 1935 and lowest Labour voteshare since 1918), LDs 53 (highest LD seat total since 2010).

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?CON=30&LAB=21+&LIB=20+&Brexit=14+&Green=8&UKIP=1&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVBrexit=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=&SCOTLAB=&SCOTLIB=&SCOTBrexit=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2017base

    Slightly pissed, obviously anxious, and borderline ill by the evidence of ITV News.

    Time to step down.
    Yes his forced smirk is quite a giveaway. He knows he is out of his depth, and his bluffing bluster won't work on his European tour over the next few days. Merkel and Macron can see right through that bullshit.
    What is Merkel and Macron and Varadkar's insurance policy if we have no deal?
    They don't need one. They just wait as the UK crumbles.
    And when the UK doesn't crumble?
    No Deal has only a minority of UK voters behind it, and that will shrink further.
    No it won't.

    Nothing has a majority of voters behind it and nothing is changing that, however far from shrinking further once we have finally left that will simply become our new status quo. Never underestimate the power of inertia, it will take a majority uniting behind an alternative to change that and at the minute there seems to be little to no evidence that is happening.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,077
    @Philip_Thompson the EU will be looking forward to tariff free access to our markets whilst levying tariffs in return. That's the plan isn't it? 0% all round?
  • Options
    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,595
    stodge said:

    that's still a 13% swing from Conservative to Lib Dem which will be higher in the LD target seats.

    Not necessarily higher in LD target seats.

    The swing from Con to LD is driven by:
    1. Labour defections to the LDs.
    2. Conservative defections to the Brexit Party.

    That swing will be lower in LD target seats where in many cases the Labour vote has already been squeezed and there is little remaining Lab vote left. So, for example, in Cheltenham Labour polled 9.4% at the last GE and there is not much left to squeeze - and a 20% fall in the Labour vote share implied by UNS is mathematically impossible and would be more like 5% on a proportional model.

    The idea that Conservatives would be as prepared to risk deserting to the Brexit Party in perceived Con-LD marginal seats is also I think a highly questionable assumption.
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    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Good grief. I've been getting up to date on the Italian polls and projections, Salvini led ""centre right"" grouping, comprising Lega, the corpse of Forza Italia and hardcore FdI looking at a majority nearing 200 on around 50% of the vote. I imagined they would have eased a little since the Euros.

    Salvini and Boris win in the autumn then join Trump as 3/7 of the G7 is led by the populist right, in Canada too touch and go whether Trudeau can hold back the conservatives there as well in November
    Your bizarre progression from mildly centre-right cerebral soft Tory moderate to unthinking hard right Trumpton is completely fucking depressing.

    He’s a young man who supports a football team. Like all fans, all he cares about is whether they win or not.

  • Options

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Electoral Calculus gives Boris a Tory majority of 40 on the new Yougov poll.

    Tories 345 (biggest Tory seat total since Thatcher in 1987), Labour 193 (lowest Labour seat total since 1935 and lowest Labour voteshare since 1918), LDs 53 (highest LD seat total since 2010).

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?CON=30&LAB=21+&LIB=20+&Brexit=14+&Green=8&UKIP=1&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVBrexit=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=&SCOTLAB=&SCOTLIB=&SCOTBrexit=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2017base

    Slightly pissed, obviously anxious, and borderline ill by the evidence of ITV News.

    Time to step down.
    Yes his forced smirk is quite a giveaway. He knows he is out of his depth, and his bluffing bluster won't work on his European tour over the next few days. Merkel and Macron can see right through that bullshit.
    What is Merkel and Macron and Varadkar's insurance policy if we have no deal?
    They don't need one. They just wait as the UK crumbles.
    And when the UK doesn't crumble?
    No Deal has only a minority of UK voters behind it, and that will shrink further.
    No it won't.

    Nothing has a majority of voters behind it and nothing is changing that, however far from shrinking further once we have finally left that will simply become our new status quo. Never underestimate the power of inertia, it will take a majority uniting behind an alternative to change that and at the minute there seems to be little to no evidence that is happening.

    Let’s see what happens when people realise they have less freedom and the UK is entirely dependent on the goodwill of other countries.

  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845

    U.K. exports less than 50% by value to the EU, but imports more than 50%. So I called it 50%. Yes of course it is falling, it is down about 5-10% over the past twenty years.

    You failed to address my actual points, however. Geographic proximity might in theory be trending less important, but there’s no evidence of that showing up in actual trade data.

    In fact, in some respects proximity seems to be becoming *more* important for economic growth in general (ie new economic geography).

    I was bothered by our exports. The fact we're trading on very generous zero-tariff, zero-quota terms with the EU of course means we import more from them than we do with the rest of the world the protectionist EU has left us without a deal with. That doesn't mean geography is behind all of that.

    I did address the actual points. I'm curious about there being no evidence of that showing up in actual trade data when you confirmed my point that the EU as a share of UK trade is falling.
    The EU’s (very slowly) declining share of U.K. trade is because of growth in the global economy ex-EU, not because “distance is no longer important”.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937

    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Good grief. I've been getting up to date on the Italian polls and projections, Salvini led ""centre right"" grouping, comprising Lega, the corpse of Forza Italia and hardcore FdI looking at a majority nearing 200 on around 50% of the vote. I imagined they would have eased a little since the Euros.

    Salvini and Boris win in the autumn then join Trump as 3/7 of the G7 is led by the populist right, in Canada too touch and go whether Trudeau can hold back the conservatives there as well in November
    Your bizarre progression from mildly centre-right cerebral soft Tory moderate to unthinking hard right Trumpton is completely fucking depressing.
    I am not a 'hard right Trumpton' I voted Remain in 2016 and for May's Tory Party in the European Parliament elections when the more Trump like Farage's Brexit Party won, I am simply reflecting the state of play
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,040
    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Good grief. I've been getting up to date on the Italian polls and projections, Salvini led ""centre right"" grouping, comprising Lega, the corpse of Forza Italia and hardcore FdI looking at a majority nearing 200 on around 50% of the vote. I imagined they would have eased a little since the Euros.

    Salvini and Boris win in the autumn then join Trump as 3/7 of the G7 is led by the populist right, in Canada too touch and go whether Trudeau can hold back the conservatives there as well in November
    Your 1930s self was probably thinking on similar lines over Franco, il Duce and the Fuhrer.
  • Options

    @Philip_Thompson the EU will be looking forward to tariff free access to our markets whilst levying tariffs in return. That's the plan isn't it? 0% all round?

    No its not the plan.

    But if it was 0% all around then we should see diversification of our imports away from the protectionist EU as we drop tariffs blocking imports from the rest of the world.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Electoral Calculus gives Boris a Tory majority of 40 on the new Yougov poll.

    Tories 345 (biggest Tory seat total since Thatcher in 1987), Labour 193 (lowest Labour seat total since 1935 and lowest Labour voteshare since 1918), LDs 53 (highest LD seat total since 2010).

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?CON=30&LAB=21+&LIB=20+&Brexit=14+&Green=8&UKIP=1&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVBrexit=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=&SCOTLAB=&SCOTLIB=&SCOTBrexit=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2017base

    Slightly pissed, obviously anxious, and borderline ill by the evidence of ITV News.

    Time to step down.
    Heading for the biggest Tory triumph since Thatcher on tonight's poll Boris is obviously going nowhere
    This may well be so. However, I would argue, that a majority on 30% of the vote, with a looming, overdue world recession, even ignoring Brexit, would not be a recipe for stable or successful government.
    Maybe not but after winning a historic 4th term I doubt even Boris could stretch the elastic to a 5th, something no government has managed since that of Lord Liverpool before the Great Reform Act of 1832
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    edited August 2019

    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Good grief. I've been getting up to date on the Italian polls and projections, Salvini led ""centre right"" grouping, comprising Lega, the corpse of Forza Italia and hardcore FdI looking at a majority nearing 200 on around 50% of the vote. I imagined they would have eased a little since the Euros.

    Salvini and Boris win in the autumn then join Trump as 3/7 of the G7 is led by the populist right, in Canada too touch and go whether Trudeau can hold back the conservatives there as well in November
    Your 1930s self was probably thinking on similar lines over Franco, il Duce and the Fuhrer.
    No, Churchill all the way and whatever you think of Boris or even Trump they are not Hitler and Mussolini (and both are big Churchill fans), Salvini may be closer to the latter but he will probably need Berlusconi for a majority who is more in the Boris and Trump mode
  • Options
    ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Electoral Calculus gives Boris a Tory majority of 40 on the new Yougov poll.

    Tories 345 (biggest Tory seat total since Thatcher in 1987), Labour 193 (lowest Labour seat total since 1935 and lowest Labour voteshare since 1918), LDs 53 (highest LD seat total since 2010).

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?CON=30&LAB=21+&LIB=20+&Brexit=14+&Green=8&UKIP=1&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVBrexit=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=&SCOTLAB=&SCOTLIB=&SCOTBrexit=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2017base

    Slightly pissed, obviously anxious, and borderline ill by the evidence of ITV News.

    Time to step down.
    Yes his forced smirk is quite a giveaway. He knows he is out of his depth, and his bluffing bluster won't work on his European tour over the next few days. Merkel and Macron can see right through that bullshit.
    What is Merkel and Macron and Varadkar's insurance policy if we have no deal?
    WTO tariffs on all our exports...
    You mean CET. What do you think we will do with regards to tariffs on EU imports?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152
    glw said:

    Looking forward to seeing Boris and Trump at the G7. I hope some journalists are going to quote some of Trump's recent statements and ask Boris what he thinks of them.
    "lack of knowledge" from Trump is beyond satire. Doubt he even knew Israel was in the Middle East until recently.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,919

    From earlier today

    As you well know (since you claim to be an economist), trade intensity is highly correlated with geographic proximity.

    Europe is 6% of population, and less than 20% of global GDP but in practical terms represents a much higher % of realistic trading opportunity for the U.K.

    No surprise therefore that EU is around 50% of our total trade, and about that the value of this trade is THREE times that with the US.

    Of course, we should be positioning ourselves for opportunities in Asia Pacific, while also understanding that the US, China and India in no way represent easy FTAs, AND that there is no opportunity on the table that can somehow make up for jettisoning those with our European neighbours.

    With your glib numbers, you effectively lie about the importance of the EU to our economic, and you lie about the size of the non-EU “prize”.

    Yes trade intensity is highly correlated with geographic proximity, however that is not all it correlates to. Furthermore technological progress as we proceed through the 21st century is making geographic proximity less and less important than it used to be. Technological progress is only going to proceed in one direction realistically, the world is getting smaller and transport is getting easier.

    Which is demonstrable by the fact that even though we have EU membership and even though we don't have trade deals with major non-EU economies, EU trade is less than half [not around half as you claimed] and falling. It used to be half, it used to be more than half, but that is not true anymore.

    If we were trading on a level playing field between the EU and the rest of the world it is quite plausible that the EU would form a third or less of our trade within a decade.
    I'm not sure the empirical evidence backs that up. For rapidly depreciating products (like semiconductors, oled panels and the like) time in transit is money lost. There's a reason why the entire iPhone supply chain is within 36 hours of Shenzhen.

    Now it's clearly different for services, or dry bulk, etc. Simply transporting coal an extra thousand miles is a rounding error.

    But it matters for other sectors, especially as manufacturing likes to "run lean"
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,919

    @Philip_Thompson the EU will be looking forward to tariff free access to our markets whilst levying tariffs in return. That's the plan isn't it? 0% all round?

    No its not the plan.

    But if it was 0% all around then we should see diversification of our imports away from the protectionist EU as we drop tariffs blocking imports from the rest of the world.
    You do know that, in terms of both number of FTAs and weighted average tariffs, the EU is less protectionist than pretty much every large trading bloc, right?
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,040
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Good grief. I've been getting up to date on the Italian polls and projections, Salvini led ""centre right"" grouping, comprising Lega, the corpse of Forza Italia and hardcore FdI looking at a majority nearing 200 on around 50% of the vote. I imagined they would have eased a little since the Euros.

    Salvini and Boris win in the autumn then join Trump as 3/7 of the G7 is led by the populist right, in Canada too touch and go whether Trudeau can hold back the conservatives there as well in November
    Your 1930s self was probably thinking on similar lines over Franco, il Duce and the Fuhrer.
    No, Churchill all the way and whatever you think of Boris or even Trump they are not Hitler and Mussolini (and both are big Churchill fans), Salvini may be closer to the latter but he will probably need Berlusconi for a majority who is more in the Boris and Trump mode
    The jury is still out on Mr Johnson, but Mr Trump? The Donald is displaying some worrying signs. I often wonder what Hannah Arendt would have made of him. I suspect full on potential dictator.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,336
    glw said:

    Looking forward to seeing Boris and Trump at the G7. I hope some journalists are going to quote some of Trump's recent statements and ask Boris what he thinks of them.
    As though he’d give a damn.
    The reply would be some semi-witty irrelevance.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    This proposed government of national unity would be anything but wouldn't it.

    What remainers actually mean is that this is a vessel to stop Brexit, nothing at all to do with unity.

    Good to see Jezza is viewed so negatively - gives me hope for our country.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,503

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Electoral Calculus gives Boris a Tory majority of 40 on the new Yougov poll.

    Tories 345 (biggest Tory seat total since Thatcher in 1987), Labour 193 (lowest Labour seat total since 1935 and lowest Labour voteshare since 1918), LDs 53 (highest LD seat total since 2010).

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?CON=30&LAB=21+&LIB=20+&Brexit=14+&Green=8&UKIP=1&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVBrexit=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=&SCOTLAB=&SCOTLIB=&SCOTBrexit=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2017base

    Slightly pissed, obviously anxious, and borderline ill by the evidence of ITV News.

    Time to step down.
    Yes his forced smirk is quite a giveaway. He knows he is out of his depth, and his bluffing bluster won't work on his European tour over the next few days. Merkel and Macron can see right through that bullshit.
    What is Merkel and Macron and Varadkar's insurance policy if we have no deal?
    They don't need one. They just wait as the UK crumbles.
    And when the UK doesn't crumble?
    No Deal has only a minority of UK voters behind it, and that will shrink further.
    No it won't.

    Nothing has a majority of voters behind it and nothing is changing that, however far from shrinking further once we have finally left that will simply become our new status quo. Never underestimate the power of inertia, it will take a majority uniting behind an alternative to change that and at the minute there seems to be little to no evidence that is happening.

    Let’s see what happens when people realise they have less freedom and the UK is entirely dependent on the goodwill of other countries.

    No Deal is not an endpoint, it is a waypoint to a deal. Negotiating a deal as an outsider is much harder though, particularly with any remaining goodwill gone.
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    ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,819
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Good grief. I've been getting up to date on the Italian polls and projections, Salvini led ""centre right"" grouping, comprising Lega, the corpse of Forza Italia and hardcore FdI looking at a majority nearing 200 on around 50% of the vote. I imagined they would have eased a little since the Euros.

    Salvini and Boris win in the autumn then join Trump as 3/7 of the G7 is led by the populist right, in Canada too touch and go whether Trudeau can hold back the conservatives there as well in November
    Your 1930s self was probably thinking on similar lines over Franco, il Duce and the Fuhrer.
    No, Churchill all the way and whatever you think of Boris or even Trump they are not Hitler and Mussolini (and both are big Churchill fans), Salvini may be closer to the latter but he will probably need Berlusconi for a majority who is more in the Boris and Trump mode

    Too soon to say with Boris though I agree he's not an inherently dictatorial type, just a typical convictionless politician riding the populist wave. Trump is not ideologically coherent enough to be a fascist but is certainly in the same mould as your bog standard tinpot dictator. He is simply held back because of the US constitution. If Trump could control the USA like Putin does in Russia, he certainly would. The optimist in me says that Boris would not.
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    surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    @Philip_Thompson the EU will be looking forward to tariff free access to our markets whilst levying tariffs in return. That's the plan isn't it? 0% all round?

    No. The UK has published draft tariffs when Gove was whatever he was in T May's government.
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    Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    I am so sick of this sort of thing and how casual anti-Semitism has been normalised.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Good grief. I've been getting up to date on the Italian polls and projections, Salvini led ""centre right"" grouping, comprising Lega, the corpse of Forza Italia and hardcore FdI looking at a majority nearing 200 on around 50% of the vote. I imagined they would have eased a little since the Euros.

    Salvini and Boris win in the autumn then join Trump as 3/7 of the G7 is led by the populist right, in Canada too touch and go whether Trudeau can hold back the conservatives there as well in November
    Your 1930s self was probably thinking on similar lines over Franco, il Duce and the Fuhrer.
    No, Churchill all the way and whatever you think of Boris or even Trump they are not Hitler and Mussolini (and both are big Churchill fans), Salvini may be closer to the latter but he will probably need Berlusconi for a majority who is more in the Boris and Trump mode
    The jury is still out on Mr Johnson, but Mr Trump? The Donald is displaying some worrying signs. I often wonder what Hannah Arendt would have made of him. I suspect full on potential dictator.
    He's just very very ill. Time to help him towards the men in white coats.
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    Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Good grief. I've been getting up to date on the Italian polls and projections, Salvini led ""centre right"" grouping, comprising Lega, the corpse of Forza Italia and hardcore FdI looking at a majority nearing 200 on around 50% of the vote. I imagined they would have eased a little since the Euros.

    Salvini and Boris win in the autumn then join Trump as 3/7 of the G7 is led by the populist right, in Canada too touch and go whether Trudeau can hold back the conservatives there as well in November
    Your 1930s self was probably thinking on similar lines over Franco, il Duce and the Fuhrer.
    No, Churchill all the way and whatever you think of Boris or even Trump they are not Hitler and Mussolini (and both are big Churchill fans), Salvini may be closer to the latter but he will probably need Berlusconi for a majority who is more in the Boris and Trump mode

    Too soon to say with Boris though I agree he's not an inherently dictatorial type, just a typical convictionless politician riding the populist wave. Trump is not ideologically coherent enough to be a fascist but is certainly in the same mould as your bog standard tinpot dictator. He is simply held back because of the US constitution. If Trump could control the USA like Putin does in Russia, he certainly would. The optimist in me says that Boris would not.
    Trump reminds me a lot more of post colonial African dictatiors than mid-20th C Eurooean ones.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940
    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Good grief. I've been getting up to date on the Italian polls and projections, Salvini led ""centre right"" grouping, comprising Lega, the corpse of Forza Italia and hardcore FdI looking at a majority nearing 200 on around 50% of the vote. I imagined they would have eased a little since the Euros.

    Salvini and Boris win in the autumn then join Trump as 3/7 of the G7 is led by the populist right, in Canada too touch and go whether Trudeau can hold back the conservatives there as well in November
    Difficult to lump Scheer in with those three. What's more, he's unlikely to have a majority to do owt much radical anyway.
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    surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Electoral Calculus gives Boris a Tory majority of 40 on the new Yougov poll.

    Tories 345 (biggest Tory seat total since Thatcher in 1987), Labour 193 (lowest Labour seat total since 1935 and lowest Labour voteshare since 1918), LDs 53 (highest LD seat total since 2010).

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?CON=30&LAB=21+&LIB=20+&Brexit=14+&Green=8&UKIP=1&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVBrexit=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=&SCOTLAB=&SCOTLIB=&SCOTBrexit=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2017base

    Slightly pissed, obviously anxious, and borderline ill by the evidence of ITV News.

    Time to step down.
    Yes his forced smirk is quite a giveaway. He knows he is out of his depth, and his bluffing bluster won't work on his European tour over the next few days. Merkel and Macron can see right through that bullshit.
    What is Merkel and Macron and Varadkar's insurance policy if we have no deal?
    They don't need one. They just wait as the UK crumbles.
    A lot depends on Macron. If France insists on checking even a sample of lorries coming into France from WTO UK, as they legally should, not just for tariffs but also because of regulatory divergence, particularly with regard to food, all hell could break loose.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152
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    ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Electoral Calculus gives Boris a Tory majority of 40 on the new Yougov poll.

    Tories 345 (biggest Tory seat total since Thatcher in 1987), Labour 193 (lowest Labour seat total since 1935 and lowest Labour voteshare since 1918), LDs 53 (highest LD seat total since 2010).

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/cgi-bin/usercode.py?CON=30&LAB=21+&LIB=20+&Brexit=14+&Green=8&UKIP=1&TVCON=&TVLAB=&TVLIB=&TVBrexit=&TVGreen=&TVUKIP=&SCOTCON=&SCOTLAB=&SCOTLIB=&SCOTBrexit=&SCOTGreen=&SCOTUKIP=&SCOTNAT=&display=AllChanged&regorseat=(none)&boundary=2017base

    Slightly pissed, obviously anxious, and borderline ill by the evidence of ITV News.

    Time to step down.
    Yes his forced smirk is quite a giveaway. He knows he is out of his depth, and his bluffing bluster won't work on his European tour over the next few days. Merkel and Macron can see right through that bullshit.
    What is Merkel and Macron and Varadkar's insurance policy if we have no deal?
    They don't need one. They just wait as the UK crumbles.
    A lot depends on Macron. If France insists on checking even a sample of lorries coming into France from WTO UK, as they legally should, not just for tariffs but also because of regulatory divergence, particularly with regard to food, all hell could break loose.
    Depends on the check, is it manpower looking inside the lorries or computers using AI it check. I do not know the french stats but the UK checks with manpower 3% of non EU trade and RoI checks 1%.

    Regulatory compliance with the exception of food as you say, but it is only certain foodstuffs and again only a percentage, is not done at the border. It is done at the importeur level and is based on a trust system.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    edited August 2019
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Good grief. I've been getting up to date on the Italian polls and projections, Salvini led ""centre right"" grouping, comprising Lega, the corpse of Forza Italia and hardcore FdI looking at a majority nearing 200 on around 50% of the vote. I imagined they would have eased a little since the Euros.

    Salvini and Boris win in the autumn then join Trump as 3/7 of the G7 is led by the populist right, in Canada too touch and go whether Trudeau can hold back the conservatives there as well in November
    Difficult to lump Scheer in with those three. What's more, he's unlikely to have a majority to do owt much radical anyway.
    Maybe not with Trump or Salvini but policy wise Scheer is close to Boris and more pro fasttracking a FTA with the UK post Brexit than Trudeau is, currently it looks neck and neck and like Trudeau will lose his majority but he could stay PM if his Liberal Party does a deal with the centre left NDP even though the Canadian Tories could win most seats.

    The latest Canadian poll yesterday had Conservatives 35%, Liberals 33%, NDP 18%, Greens 9%, BQ 3%, PPC 1%.

    https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/Conservatives-Liberals-Dead-Heat-Ethics-Review-Fails-to-Move-Voters
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940
    O tempora! O mores!
    As Boris wouldn't say to that.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940
    edited August 2019
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Good grief. I've been getting up to date on the Italian polls and projections, Salvini led ""centre right"" grouping, comprising Lega, the corpse of Forza Italia and hardcore FdI looking at a majority nearing 200 on around 50% of the vote. I imagined they would have eased a little since the Euros.

    Salvini and Boris win in the autumn then join Trump as 3/7 of the G7 is led by the populist right, in Canada too touch and go whether Trudeau can hold back the conservatives there as well in November
    Difficult to lump Scheer in with those three. What's more, he's unlikely to have a majority to do owt much radical anyway.
    Maybe not with Trump or Salvini but policy wise Scheer is close to Boris and more pro fasttracking a FTA with the UK post Brexit than Trudeau is, currently it looks neck and neck and like Trudeau will lose his majority but he could stay PM if his Liberal Party does a deal with the centre left NDP even though the Canadian Tories could win most seats.

    The latest Canadian poll yesterday had Conservatives 35%, Liberals 33%, NDP 18%, Greens 9%, BQ 3%, PPC 1%.

    https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/Conservatives-Liberals-Dead-Heat-Ethics-Review-Fails-to-Move-Voters
    I demur. Scheer is an old(?) style Conservative. Thatcherite. He certainly wouldn't be promising tax cuts AND spending sprees. Nor demonising immigrants. (I do not put Boris in that camp either).
    PS. There is simply no precedent in Canada for deals or coalitions. Whoever wins most seats will be a minority government. Ironically, if Scheer wins, that means he will be able to enact nowt but the most bland.
    If Trudeau wins as a minority, he may actually have to act on some of the policies he promised http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–09_Canadian_parliamentary_dispute
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152
    dixiedean said:

    O tempora! O mores!
    As Boris wouldn't say to that.
    Just after he announces that Trump is the greatest president of all time.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152
    Daily Mail:

    "The UK has 'the right person in charge': Donald Trump praises Boris Johnson as 'far superior' after speaking to the newly installed prime minister FOUR times"
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    edited August 2019
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Good grief. I've been getting up to date on the Italian polls and projections, Salvini led ""centre right"" grouping, comprising Lega, the corpse of Forza Italia and hardcore FdI looking at a majority nearing 200 on around 50% of the vote. I imagined they would have eased a little since the Euros.

    Salvini and Boris win in the autumn then join Trump as 3/7 of the G7 is led by the populist right, in Canada too touch and go whether Trudeau can hold back the conservatives there as well in November
    Difficult to lump Scheer in with those three. What's more, he's unlikely to have a majority to do owt much radical anyway.
    Maybe not with Trump or Salvini but policy wise Scheer is close to Boris and more pro fasttracking a FTA with the UK post Brexit than Trudeau is, currently it looks neck and neck and like Trudeau will lose his majority but he could stay PM if his Liberal Party does a deal with the centre left NDP even though the Canadian Tories could win most seats.

    The latest Canadian poll yesterday had Conservatives 35%, Liberals 33%, NDP 18%, Greens 9%, BQ 3%, PPC 1%.

    https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/Conservatives-Liberals-Dead-Heat-Ethics-Review-Fails-to-Move-Voters
    I demur. Scheer is an old(?) style Conservative. Thatcherite. He certainly wouldn't be promising tax cuts AND spending sprees. Nor demonising immigrants. (I do not put Boris in that camp either).
    PS. There is simply no precedent in Canada for deals or coalitions. Whoever wins most seats will be a minority government. Ironically, if Scheer wins, that means he will be able to enact nowt but the most bland.
    If Trudeau wins as a minority, he may actually have to act on some of the policies he promised last time.
    Scheer is proposing to make maternity benefits tax free and to scrap the carbon tax and to end illegal border crossings into Canada (Boris also wants to end free movement from the EU and replace it with am Australian style points system).

    There may be no precedent in Canada for deals but on current polls it is looking like the closest Canadian election since 1972 (when Trudeau's father scraped home by 2 seats to lead the largest party propped up by the NDP) so I would not rule anything out

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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Good grief. I've been getting up to date on the Italian polls and projections, Salvini led ""centre right"" grouping, comprising Lega, the corpse of Forza Italia and hardcore FdI looking at a majority nearing 200 on around 50% of the vote. I imagined they would have eased a little since the Euros.

    Salvini and Boris win in the autumn then join Trump as 3/7 of the G7 is led by the populist right, in Canada too touch and go whether Trudeau can hold back the conservatives there as well in November
    Difficult to lump Scheer in with those three. What's more, he's unlikely to have a majority to do owt much radical anyway.
    Maybe not with Trump or Salvini but policy wise Scheer is close to Boris and more pro fasttracking a FTA with the UK post Brexit than Trudeau is, currently it looks neck and neck and like Trudeau will lose his majority but he could stay PM if his Liberal Party does a deal with the centre left NDP even though the Canadian Tories could win most seats.

    The latest Canadian poll yesterday had Conservatives 35%, Liberals 33%, NDP 18%, Greens 9%, BQ 3%, PPC 1%.

    https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/Conservatives-Liberals-Dead-Heat-Ethics-Review-Fails-to-Move-Voters
    I demur. Scheer is an old(?) style Conservative. Thatcherite. He certainly wouldn't be promising tax cuts AND spending sprees. Nor demonising immigrants. (I do not put Boris in that camp either).
    PS. There is simply no precedent in Canada for deals or coalitions. Whoever wins most seats will be a minority government. Ironically, if Scheer wins, that means he will be able to enact nowt but the most bland.
    If Trudeau wins as a minority, he may actually have to act on some of the policies he promised last time.
    Scheer is proposing to make maternity benefits tax free and to scrap the carbon tax and to end illegal border crossings into Canada (Boris also wants to end free movement from the EU and replace it with am Australian style points system).

    There may be no precedent in Canada for deals but on current polls it is looking like the closest Canadian election since 1972 (when Trudeau's father scraped home by 2 seats to lead the largest party propped up by the NDP) so I would not rule anything out

    Well indeed. The Greens could become major players, too. Although they are on 9% Federally, they are, unlike ours, heavily concentrated on my old stomping ground of Vancouver Island. There are 7 ridings there, and they should take 4, or maybe more.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940
    edited August 2019

    Daily Mail:

    "The UK has 'the right person in charge': Donald Trump praises Boris Johnson as 'far superior' after speaking to the newly installed prime minister FOUR times"

    Am sure "vote Boris get Trump" is being lined up. Or I would be, if I thought Labour high command could piss in a straight line...
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624
    The thing about labelling things project fear is that you can do it even if you accept there are things to be fearful of. Of course it is more usually done to say the fears are groundless, but its still used when there are grounds too, which is handy for those using the label as they can fall back on 'it's still not as bad as claimed/the benefits outweigh it' later.

    Daily Mail:

    "The UK has 'the right person in charge': Donald Trump praises Boris Johnson as 'far superior' after speaking to the newly installed prime minister FOUR times"

    God alone knows what sweet nothings Boris had to mutter to get that praise. Whatever one thinks of him, Trump only seems to respond to personal flattery so that must be what happened.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624
    So I assume he believes both that negative press against him has no effect, but also that he'd be doing even better were it not for the effects of negative press against him?
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Seems like a competition at the moment as to whether Italy or the UK will have a general election first.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940
    HYUFD said:
    That's seriously dangerous shit from the Sun.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,919
    I don't believe those Iowa polling averages.

    According to FiveThirtyEight, Biden has only led in two of the last five Iowa polls, with Warren getting two, and Buttigieg one. Biden's *highest* polling number is 28%, with two sub 20% numbers.

    Since the beginning of July, RCP has only found two polls, so it's a bit misleading.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,976
    ydoethur said:

    Further question:

    However many aircraft do we have for our aircraft carrier?
    18 as of this month.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,919
    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:

    Further question:

    However many aircraft do we have for our aircraft carrier?
    18 as of this month.
    Can they actually fly from the aircraft carrier yet?
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    houndtanghoundtang Posts: 450
    This whole idea of a 'GNU' and a temporary PM strikes me as total fantasy - the hard Remainers being just as deluded as the hard Leavers. Following Lucas' all female Cabinet we are now getting names like John Bercow thrown out there. Next week it will probably be Gina Miller. Or Tony Blair will state that he will serve if called upon.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    Dura_Ace said:

    ydoethur said:

    Further question:

    However many aircraft do we have for our aircraft carrier?
    18 as of this month.
    How many of them can actually fly?
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    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,243

    Is die the most overused word in Bond titles?

    Live and Let x
    Tomorrow Never x s
    x Another Day
    No Time to x
    From the other thread... Yes you are right. I was thinking about this at 1am too when Live and Love merged into one:
    From Russia with Love
    Spy Who Loved Me
    Live and Let Die
    Living Daylights
    You Only Live Twice
This discussion has been closed.