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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If BJohnson is planning an election the numbers continue to lo

SystemSystem Posts: 11,008
edited August 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If BJohnson is planning an election the numbers continue to look good

August is generally a month when we see fewer Westminster voting polls and it’s probably because of the possibility of an early election that this year we’ve seen as many surveys as we have.

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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    First like the Aussies.
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    Paging Brenda....
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    AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    Now or never. His numbers and headlines are never going to be this good during no-deal disruption, or a likely recession next year.
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    "JSwinson’s response to the PM Corbyn suggestion doesn’t seem to have hurt the LDs"

    Its because 99% of the public don't keep up with the political horseplay. Lib Dems are seen as the bollocks to brexit party and Jezza is at best a fence sitter.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    edited August 2019
    BJohnson? We were told TMay was a special case to distinguish her from the month and the modal verb. Does "Johnson" have any other meaning? (fnaaar).
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    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    I think the Tories might be in for a big shock if they go for an election. The anti-Tory vote is stronger than the pro-Tory vote. If you hate something or a political party it is a strong driver to get out and vote rather than liking something IMO.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Very difficult to judge in reality. The polls are relatively good atm but so much depends on the next few weeks. The only constant over the past few months has been the slide in support for JC. It's interesting that the party seems utterly unable to do anything at the moment to stem or change the narrative.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    I think a lot will depend on how the election comes and how it is framed. If Boris does a May and seems to want to take advantage of a lead in the polls without any compelling justification he may get a similar result. Conversely, if sorting out Brexit in this Parliament simply proves impossible because they are so divided and he is seen to have done his best then he may well be on to a winner. In short I think that there are far more contingencies than usual in the polling at this point and it would be a mistake to read too much into them.
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    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,597
    The tables are here Mike. Con 32, Lab 22, LD 20, Brexit 12, Green 7, SNP 4. The wiki polling site missed them because YouGov initially posted them to the link in the previous week's polling write up.

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/8rjix1cm2t/TheTimes_190821_VI_w.pdf
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    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Ishmael_Z said:

    BJohnson? We were told TMay was a special case to distinguish her from the month and the modal verb. Does "Johnson" have any other meaning? (fnaaar).

    It is amusing that the abbreviated letters for Johnson are a sexual act or his surname is a slang term for penis in the US! Yet we are told that Boris can reach places among the electorate that no other politician can reach...
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581
    Hovering around 30% in the polls is not the usual position from which to call a GE.

    Look at your own numbers, not anyone else's.

    It would be a bold decision by Bozo.
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    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,597
    Mike you need to amend the screenshot to capture the Brexit Party column missed off on the right!
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    I think the Tories might be in for a big shock if they go for an election. The anti-Tory vote is stronger than the pro-Tory vote. If you hate something or a political party it is a strong driver to get out and vote rather than liking something IMO.

    Polling takes account of likelihood to vote. I believe your point is just wishful thinking. Of course they sometimes come true.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    Why does the table not show the Brexit Party?
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581
    Just had a Gregg's sausage roll at lunchtime. Followed by another Gregg's sausage roll.

    Geordie street food. Go rave about that, Rick Stein.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581
    DavidL said:

    Why does the table not show the Brexit Party?

    Pre-watershed.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    Sky is showing reviews left Eng 1, Aus 1 - Eng lost a review on the lbw going down leg, but when did the convicts lose theirs ?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131

    DavidL said:

    Why does the table not show the Brexit Party?

    Pre-watershed.
    That makes sense. But it is also key to what the potential upside is for the Tories.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Why does the table not show the Brexit Party?

    Pre-watershed.
    That makes sense. But it is also key to what the potential upside is for the Tories.
    The graph on the wikipedia page shows clearly the mirroring of Tory/Brexit Party performance and also Labour/(LibDem+Green) performance in the opinion polls.

    Basically, two buckets of voters that never mix.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,027
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    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    Hovering around 30% in the polls is not the usual position from which to call a GE.

    Look at your own numbers, not anyone else's.

    It would be a bold decision by Bozo.

    30% for the Tories in the polls used to be called flatlining in the polls in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Boris is doing worse than William Hague or IDS despite the Brexit supporting media! :lol: If 70% of the population does not want to vote for your party your not in a very dynamic state IMO. I also think the comparisons with Labour winning a solid majority in 2005 on only 35% is misleading as they went into the election with 410 MPs most of whom were seeking re-election with the advantages of incumbency whereas the Tories will have almost a 100 less MPs. Tony Blair said of the 2005 GE that it was one Labour could not lose and this was in a large part due to the fact that Labour went in from the 2001 election with an impregnable majority. The Tories could not effectively target enough seats to overturn the Labour majority whereas Boris does not have a Tory majority to start with...
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited August 2019
    On a UNS basis, even the Yougov poll only gives the Tories 329 seats - below Cameron's 2015 total. It is also likely that the residual Brexit Party vote is less Tory inclined than those who have already switched back in the last month. As in 2017, many might tactically vote Labour rather than Tory.
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    Test cricket is a bit of a bore isn't it? What's the percentage of bowl/not hit/caught by wicket keeper. It feels like over 50pc in this match.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581
    Well that's bollocks isn't it? We haven't done it in 2 years, so how the feck can Bozo et al do anything in 30 days when everyone is on holiday?

    They realise this, and hence the backing away from what Bozo said off the cuff in Berlin.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    I see the road network is looking somewhat "congested" this afternoon.
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    Okay - what am I baxtering? Shall I do a monthly average without the TBAs?
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,966
    If your usp is as a contrarian commentator, does there not come a point when if your take on everything is so utterly predictable that your usp is fcuked?

    https://twitter.com/spikedonline/status/1164870059698937857?s=20
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,161

    If your usp is as a contrarian commentator, does there not come a point when if your take on everything is so utterly predictable that your usp is fcuked?

    https://twitter.com/spikedonline/status/1164870059698937857?s=20

    Utterly mad.
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    If your usp is as a contrarian commentator, does there not come a point when if your take on everything is so utterly predictable that your usp is fcuked?

    https://twitter.com/spikedonline/status/1164870059698937857?s=20

    Maybe just best stick to 'The National' Divvie
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    Okay - what am I baxtering? Shall I do a monthly average without the TBAs?

    No Brexit party - are they included in baxter?
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    Australia are going to win this easily. They already have more than enough of a lead.
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    Okay - what am I baxtering? Shall I do a monthly average without the TBAs?

    No Brexit party - are they included in baxter?
    Yes they are - does anyone have the TBAs and the Brexit numbers and I promise I'll produce a baxtered monthly average.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,249
    DavidL said:

    I think a lot will depend on how the election comes and how it is framed. If Boris does a May and seems to want to take advantage of a lead in the polls without any compelling justification he may get a similar result. Conversely, if sorting out Brexit in this Parliament simply proves impossible because they are so divided and he is seen to have done his best then he may well be on to a winner. In short I think that there are far more contingencies than usual in the polling at this point and it would be a mistake to read too much into them.

    I think this is true surely there aren't SPADs in No 10 advising an election.

    Same with @The_Taxman. Plenty of Boris-kickers plus those who will revert to red.

    @DavidL great post btw on the border thread about your father/family. It is much much more difficult for others to understand the reality, absurd as it was, without such first hand experience.
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    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,435
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    148grss said:

    justin124 said:

    On the basis of the Yougov poll - assuming UNS - Labour loses 34 seats to the Tories , 5 to the LDs and 6 to SNP. That would bring Labour down to 217 seats. The Tory gains are apartly offset by 14 losses to the LDs and circa 8 to the SNP. That generates a net gain of 12 seats bringing them to 329 - slightly below Cameron's 2015 total.
    In reality, I suspect that Labour would hang on in 4 of the 5 seats at risk to the LDs - only Sheffield Hallam would be likely to fall.

    UNS cannot be applied in circumstances of extreme changes in the popular vote. In that poll the Labour vote is 18% down on average on its 2017 vote of 40%. There were plenty of seats across the UK where Labour secured well under 18% in 2017, and in those the fall in its vote must mathematically be less than 18%.
    Yeah, I've seen a few maps on these weird numbers that produce outcomes in seats I just can't believe. F'rinstance I know the Stoke area is more Brexity and going in the Tory direction a bit, but I can't imagine all the seats going Tory. Also, St Albans is deffo looking like a LD target from Tories, but even on some of these strong Tory / weak LD numbers they are still predicted to flip it, and I find that less certain. I dunno how different models work, but I wonder if they're accounting Leave / Remain and EU results a bit favourably....
    But Yougov is showing strong LD vote share and the Tory vote is much weaker than 2017. The problem the LDs face in St Albans is that Labour is also a significant force - having held the seat 1997 - 2005 . Their vote is not that likely to crumble tactically in favour of the Tory Little Helpers.
    I disagree. Labour won St Albans with Tony Blair as leader, who was not worried by people getting rich.

    Labour under Corbyn is very different. St Albans has lots of middle class professionals commuting into London and house prices are impacted as a result. There is also a reasonable Jewish population who are unlikely to view Corbyn favourably.

    A radical Labour government is not going to entice your typical St Albans vote, let alone the personal characteristics of Corbyn.

    There are one or two wards which do not have these attributes and may favour Labour, but I would predict that the Labour vote will crumble further in St Albans as a whole under a Corbyn leadership.

    In 2017 it was white working class voters who had a problem with Corbyn and many switched to the Tories. Labour middle class support increased sharply.
    FPT

    I agree in 2017 in general. In St Albans however the Labour vote stayed flat.

    In 2019 it is the middle class vote which has left Labour.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    If your usp is as a contrarian commentator, does there not come a point when if your take on everything is so utterly predictable that your usp is fcuked?

    https://twitter.com/spikedonline/status/1164870059698937857?s=20

    Yeah. Not even mildly irritated by it any more. More a sense of pity, really.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    I think a lot will depend on how the election comes and how it is framed. If Boris does a May and seems to want to take advantage of a lead in the polls without any compelling justification he may get a similar result. Conversely, if sorting out Brexit in this Parliament simply proves impossible because they are so divided and he is seen to have done his best then he may well be on to a winner. In short I think that there are far more contingencies than usual in the polling at this point and it would be a mistake to read too much into them.

    I think this is true surely there aren't SPADs in No 10 advising an election.

    Same with @The_Taxman. Plenty of Boris-kickers plus those who will revert to red.

    @DavidL great post btw on the border thread about your father/family. It is much much more difficult for others to understand the reality, absurd as it was, without such first hand experience.
    Thanks.

    I think that Boris would probably quite like an election with Corbyn still in charge of Labour, with Brexit to squeeze TBP, with the remain vote splitting quite so evenly between Labour and the Lib Dems. But it really has to be forced upon him, not sought out.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    More than 50 runs for the loss of only 2 wickets? This is proper old fashioned test match batting this is. How can England hope to compete with this?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924
    So, how are we doing in the cricket?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924
    rcs1000 said:

    So, how are we doing in the cricket?

    Arse.

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    Okay monthly Baxtered average (not including latest poll with too many TBAs)-

    Con 349
    Lab 203
    LD 41
    Brexit 0
    Green 1
    SNP 35
    PC 3
    NI 18
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited August 2019
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    DavidL said:

    More than 50 runs for the loss of only 2 wickets? This is proper old fashioned test match batting this is. How can England hope to compete with this?

    Ok I'm claiming that one.
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    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,597
    justin124 said:



    No it's not the best guide. With extreme changes in vote share, a better model is one based on proportionate swing moderated by incumbancy effects. Across all pollsters, the Labour vote share is down around 2/5ths from 40% to an average of around 24% and that is extreme as it stands. The definitive study comparing UNS to proportional swing is that on UKPR in May 2011 following the Lib Dems' meltdown in the 2011 Scottish Parliament elections. In seats the Lib Dems held, the fall in their vote share was in all but one of 13 seats considerably more than implied by UNS. Effectively the larger the vote share they started with, the larger the fall in the LD vote, a pattern moderated slightly by incumbancy effects but by not enough to make a difference between winning and losing the seat.

    I don't share your eternal optimism that the Labour vote will defy the polls, nor do others from Norwich from the look of it:

    https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/1164812742953324544

    Interesting. The Twitter post from a Labour canvasser bemoaning the comments she was getting on Corbyn and Brexit in "remain-y Norwich" has been deleted.
    I am not persuaded. Most polls have Labour now in the 25% - 30% range. Survation had them on 24% - but that was a UK figure with the GB vote share likely to be 25%. Even as things stand, Labour's vote share is where it was in late April 2017 with the Tory vote share being much lower.
    No polling company currently has Labour at 30%. The highest are Kantar and Opinium at 28% - still 3/10ths down on the 2017 share.

    The two companies which between them were spot on in predicting the Labour vote share in the 2019 Euro elections - YouGov and Ipsos - currently have Labour at 22% and 24%. All the other companies overstated the Labour share by miles.

    I take it that you are aware of the studies that show that some people are unwilling to tell pollsters in 2019 that they voted Labour in 2017, contrary to their responses in 2017, and that weighting schemes are therefore susceptible to overweighting those who claim to be 2017 Labour voters in their polling schemes and thus exaggerating the Labour vote share. YouGov, Ipsos and Kantar, unlike the other companies, are not vulnerable to this problem as they do not have to rely verbatim on 2019 recall of 2017 voting in their weighting models.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    tlg86 said:
    And why are they selecting people so utterly brain-dead they don't scrub their social medial accounts months before they push for elected office?
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    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Anorak said:
    Whilst he seems an unpleasant person he is a local government candidate not one for parliamentary seats looking at the Guido webpage. I would not vote for him but to call him the next XXXXXX is stretching it a bit far. He will likely disappear now as quickly as he appeared....
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    rcs1000 said:

    So, how are we doing in the cricket?

    It's your turn to get a wicket now.

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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited August 2019

    justin124 said:



    No it's not the best guide. With extreme changes in vote share, a better model is pollsters, the Labour vote share is down around 2/5ths from 40% to an average of around 24% and that is extreme as it stands. The definitive study comparing UNS to proportional swing is that on UKPR in May 2011 following the Lib Dems' meltdown in the 2011 Scottish Parliament elections. In seats the Lib Dems held, the fall in their vote share was in all but one of 13 seats considerably more than implied by UNS. Effectively the larger the vote share they started with, the larger the fall in the LD vote, a pattern moderated slightly by incumbancy effects but by not enough to make a difference between winning and losing the seat.

    I don't share your eternal optimism that the Labour vote will defy the polls, nor do others from Norwich from the look of it:

    https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/1164812742953324544

    Interesting. The Twitter post from a Labour canvasser bemoaning the comments she was getting on Corbyn and Brexit in "remain-y Norwich" has been deleted.
    I am not persuaded. Most polls have Labour now in the 25% - 30% range. Survation had them on 24% - but that was a UK figure with the GB vote share likely to be 25%. Even as things stand, Labour's vote share is where it was in late April 2017 with the Tory vote share being much lower.
    No polling company currently has Labour at 30%. The highest are Kantar and Opinium at 28% - still 3/10ths down on the 2017 share.

    The two companies which between them were spot on in predicting the Labour vote share in the 2019 Euro elections - YouGov and Ipsos - currently have Labour at 22% and 24%. All the other companies overstated the Labour share by miles.

    I take it that you are aware of the studies that show that some people are unwilling to tell pollsters in 2019 that they voted Labour in 2017, contrary to their responses in 2017, and that weighting schemes are therefore susceptible to overweighting those who claim to be 2017 Labour voters in their polling schemes and thus exaggerating the Labour vote share. YouGov, Ipsos and Kantar, unlike the other companies, are not vulnerable to this problem as they do not have to rely verbatim on 2019 recall of 2017 voting in their weighting models.
    On unchanged methodology Kantar had figures of Con 40% Lab 32% - though it has to be said the survey looks odd in its entirety with figures totally out of line with other pollsters. I am fully aware of Anthony Wells' article - though there are different views as to whether Yougov are correct on that. Yougov was also the most accurate pollster re-the 2014 Euro election , but that was not subsequently repeated at the GEs of 2015 and 2017.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,828
    Afternoon all :)

    Once again we see the poll as a piece of political propaganda with its "facts" and "evidence" to be used and abused.

    A GE campaign with four major parties is going to be something different. Farage and Swinson aren't going to be sidelined and we will have all sorts of ructions over televised debates and their format.

    Corbyn and Johnson will no doubt stick to pretty pictures at events stuffed with loyalists - I'm still to be convinced Johnson can handle the really tough questioning without retreating into blustering but we'll see.

    We can probably say "Bollocks to Baxter" though that would be unnecessarily brusque to Martin as would saying the slightly kinder "UNS is USEless" but it may well be and regional and even constituency polling will be more valuable.

    This will be an election unlike any other and unlike most contests the Conservatives face a battle on three fronts because the BP will snapping at them in their core northern heartlands while the LDs will be attacking in the south and south west.

    The vote numbers suggest the Conservatives will benefit from a divided opposition but it doesn't always work that way and sometimes it can be the leading party which finds himself picked off from all sides. 32% may win a majority now, 31% won 165 seats in 1997 so the margins are much thinner.

    As others have said, now may be the time, indeed now may be the only time,
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    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    tlg86 said:
    That one made me laugh! :smile:

    To be fair all political parties get people who say or do things that most people would not. I think social media has debased human interaction and it is not something I utilise. But I will never stand for election as I cannot be bothered with the hassle!
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Unless Parliament is recalled next Tuesday, no election now before 10th October.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    justin124 said:

    Unless Parliament is recalled next Tuesday, no election now before 10th October.

    Compared to the opposition this looks like a focused government of ruthless efficiency and England look like a world class batting line up. It is staggering how incompetent they have been and continue to be.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    Australia are just grinding England's bowlers into the dust here. They clearly have enough runs already.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So, how are we doing in the cricket?

    It's your turn to get a wicket now.

    I'm actually in the score book at Lord's, having taken a wicket there, and then carrying my bat. (0 Not Out)
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    I've amended the table above to INCLUDE the BREX which I cropped off in the earlier version
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So, how are we doing in the cricket?

    It's your turn to get a wicket now.

    I'm actually in the score book at Lord's, having taken a wicket there, and then carrying my bat. (0 Not Out)
    What match was that?
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,027
    Easy Lib Dem gain?
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    I've amended the table above to INCLUDE the BREX which I cropped off in the earlier version

    Why are Brexit party last in wiki's table - should I amend it for them?
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    I've amended the table above to INCLUDE the BREX which I cropped off in the earlier version

    Why are Brexit party last in wiki's table - should I amend it for them?
    Please do.
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    I've amended the table above to INCLUDE the BREX which I cropped off in the earlier version

    Why are Brexit party last in wiki's table - should I amend it for them?
    Please do.
    I'm on it!
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,828
    DavidL said:

    justin124 said:

    Unless Parliament is recalled next Tuesday, no election now before 10th October.

    Compared to the opposition this looks like a focused government of ruthless efficiency and England look like a world class batting line up. It is staggering how incompetent they have been and continue to be.
    I'm not quite sure I understand your frustration. It's August - we are the only ones thinking about politics. Most people are on holiday or enjoying the sunshine or, with any luck both.

    The other huge advantages Johnson enjoys are a) Jeremy Corbyn and b) the fact the opposition aren't united. There are two distinct factions at work whose only communality is stopping a No Deal. One group wants to stop the Brexit process completely via revocation of A50 while the other wants to honour the 23/6/16 result but with an agreed and much better deal than currently exists.

    Within that, there are those who would like a second vote with the public offered the chance to approve May's WA and those who would not. This is the problem - we could seek an extension for two years (let's say) but contingent on the existing A50 agreement being torn up and a new one negotiated.

    The problem is everyone is tired and wants it "over with" - extending it until 2021 or beyond would be unendurably frustrating.
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    If your usp is as a contrarian commentator, does there not come a point when if your take on everything is so utterly predictable that your usp is fcuked?

    https://twitter.com/spikedonline/status/1164870059698937857?s=20

    Utterly mad.
    Aren't they just.

    They are just toxic playing with the planet, our children and animals

    It needs total rejection by all sane people
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,380
    On the we have no test batsmen front, Lancashire release once upon a time future England star Hameed:
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/23/lancashire-to-release-haseeb-hameed-at-end-of-county-season-cricket

    Might another county rehabilitate him ?
    He had, and just possibly still has, huge potential.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,945

    If your usp is as a contrarian commentator, does there not come a point when if your take on everything is so utterly predictable that your usp is fcuked?

    https://twitter.com/spikedonline/status/1164870059698937857?s=20

    Utterly mad.
    Aren't they just.

    They are just toxic playing with the planet, our children and animals

    It needs total rejection by all sane people
    Still. I'll be assured of hot, buttered toast on my deathbed. As the planet burns. So there is that.
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    I've amended the table above to INCLUDE the BREX which I cropped off in the earlier version

    Why are Brexit party last in wiki's table - should I amend it for them?
    Please do.
    They've made it really tricky for an html amateur like myself - damn liberals (in the American sense of the word)
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    justin124 said:

    Unless Parliament is recalled next Tuesday, no election now before 10th October.

    Compared to the opposition this looks like a focused government of ruthless efficiency and England look like a world class batting line up. It is staggering how incompetent they have been and continue to be.
    I'm not quite sure I understand your frustration. It's August - we are the only ones thinking about politics. Most people are on holiday or enjoying the sunshine or, with any luck both.

    The other huge advantages Johnson enjoys are a) Jeremy Corbyn and b) the fact the opposition aren't united. There are two distinct factions at work whose only communality is stopping a No Deal. One group wants to stop the Brexit process completely via revocation of A50 while the other wants to honour the 23/6/16 result but with an agreed and much better deal than currently exists.

    Within that, there are those who would like a second vote with the public offered the chance to approve May's WA and those who would not. This is the problem - we could seek an extension for two years (let's say) but contingent on the existing A50 agreement being torn up and a new one negotiated.

    The problem is everyone is tired and wants it "over with" - extending it until 2021 or beyond would be unendurably frustrating.
    This is not a normal August. We are supposed to be leaving the EU in just over 2 months. We need decisions made and legislation passed whichever way we are going to jump. If MPs had approved May's deal, as they should have, then we would have left months ago and they could have their hols. As they screwed up they really should be at work.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    DavidL said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    justin124 said:

    Unless Parliament is recalled next Tuesday, no election now before 10th October.

    Compared to the opposition this looks like a focused government of ruthless efficiency and England look like a world class batting line up. It is staggering how incompetent they have been and continue to be.
    I'm not quite sure I understand your frustration. It's August - we are the only ones thinking about politics. Most people are on holiday or enjoying the sunshine or, with any luck both.

    The other huge advantages Johnson enjoys are a) Jeremy Corbyn and b) the fact the opposition aren't united. There are two distinct factions at work whose only communality is stopping a No Deal. One group wants to stop the Brexit process completely via revocation of A50 while the other wants to honour the 23/6/16 result but with an agreed and much better deal than currently exists.

    Within that, there are those who would like a second vote with the public offered the chance to approve May's WA and those who would not. This is the problem - we could seek an extension for two years (let's say) but contingent on the existing A50 agreement being torn up and a new one negotiated.

    The problem is everyone is tired and wants it "over with" - extending it until 2021 or beyond would be unendurably frustrating.
    This is not a normal August. We are supposed to be leaving the EU in just over 2 months. We need decisions made and legislation passed whichever way we are going to jump. If MPs had approved May's deal, as they should have, then we would have left months ago and they could have their hols. As they screwed up they really should be at work.
    fat chance
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    justin124 said:

    Unless Parliament is recalled next Tuesday, no election now before 10th October.

    Compared to the opposition this looks like a focused government of ruthless efficiency and England look like a world class batting line up. It is staggering how incompetent they have been and continue to be.
    I'm not quite sure I understand your frustration. It's August - we are the only ones thinking about politics. Most people are on holiday or enjoying the sunshine or, with any luck both.

    The other huge advantages Johnson enjoys are a) Jeremy Corbyn and b) the fact the opposition aren't united. There are two distinct factions at work whose only communality is stopping a No Deal. One group wants to stop the Brexit process completely via revocation of A50 while the other wants to honour the 23/6/16 result but with an agreed and much better deal than currently exists.

    Within that, there are those who would like a second vote with the public offered the chance to approve May's WA and those who would not. This is the problem - we could seek an extension for two years (let's say) but contingent on the existing A50 agreement being torn up and a new one negotiated.

    The problem is everyone is tired and wants it "over with" - extending it until 2021 or beyond would be unendurably frustrating.
    This is not a normal August. We are supposed to be leaving the EU in just over 2 months. We need decisions made and legislation passed whichever way we are going to jump. If MPs had approved May's deal, as they should have, then we would have left months ago and they could have their hols. As they screwed up they really should be at work.
    fat chance
    Oh I know but it is frustrating.
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    Nigelb said:

    On the we have no test batsmen front, Lancashire release once upon a time future England star Hameed:
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/23/lancashire-to-release-haseeb-hameed-at-end-of-county-season-cricket

    Might another county rehabilitate him ?
    He had, and just possibly still has, huge potential.

    Is it confidence issue? Or has something in his technique been exposed?
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141
    One more Tory defector they'll need for a VONC...
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,945
    edited August 2019
    Nigelb said:

    On the we have no test batsmen front, Lancashire release once upon a time future England star Hameed:
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/23/lancashire-to-release-haseeb-hameed-at-end-of-county-season-cricket

    Might another county rehabilitate him ?
    He had, and just possibly still has, huge potential.

    Yes. Surely you can't go from precocious teen test opening bat, to not being good enough to play County cricket, in just a few years?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131

    One more Tory defector they'll need for a VONC...
    Presumably he had some idea that this was coming, hence his announcement that he was standing down a few weeks ago. He really should go now.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    justin124 said:

    Unless Parliament is recalled next Tuesday, no election now before 10th October.

    Compared to the opposition this looks like a focused government of ruthless efficiency and England look like a world class batting line up. It is staggering how incompetent they have been and continue to be.
    I'm not quite sure I understand your frustration. It's August - we are the only ones thinking about politics. Most people are on holiday or enjoying the sunshine or, with any luck both.

    The other huge advantages Johnson enjoys are a) Jeremy Corbyn and b) the fact the opposition aren't united. There are two distinct factions at work whose only communality is stopping a No Deal. One group wants to stop the Brexit process completely via revocation of A50 while the other wants to honour the 23/6/16 result but with an agreed and much better deal than currently exists.

    Within that, there are those who would like a second vote with the public offered the chance to approve May's WA and those who would not. This is the problem - we could seek an extension for two years (let's say) but contingent on the existing A50 agreement being torn up and a new one negotiated.

    The problem is everyone is tired and wants it "over with" - extending it until 2021 or beyond would be unendurably frustrating.
    This is not a normal August. We are supposed to be leaving the EU in just over 2 months. We need decisions made and legislation passed whichever way we are going to jump. If MPs had approved May's deal, as they should have, then we would have left months ago and they could have their hols. As they screwed up they really should be at work.
    fat chance
    Oh I know but it is frustrating.
    politicians will deal with the issues in a politican's way

    they have no real intention of doing much work rather theyll bluster and debate, and line themselves up for a blame game,
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited August 2019

    One more Tory defector they'll need for a VONC...
    Yes, buried in the arrest storyline was this, which is more important for the Parly arithmetic:

    The Mirror can also reveal Mr O'Mara has submitted paperwork for his resignation as an MP, dated for when Parliament returns in September.

    I had my doubts about that. And I would assume such paperwork is not yet irreversible.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    stodge said:

    DavidL said:

    justin124 said:

    Unless Parliament is recalled next Tuesday, no election now before 10th October.

    Compared to the opposition this looks like a focused government of ruthless efficiency and England look like a world class batting line up. It is staggering how incompetent they have been and continue to be.
    I'm not quite sure I understand your frustration. It's August - we are the only ones thinking about politics. Most people are on holiday or enjoying the sunshine or, with any luck both.

    The other huge advantages Johnson enjoys are a) Jeremy Corbyn and b) the fact the opposition aren't united. There are two distinct factions at work whose only communality is stopping a No Deal. One group wants to stop the Brexit process completely via revocation of A50 while the other wants to honour the 23/6/16 result but with an agreed and much better deal than currently exists.

    Within that, there are those who would like a second vote with the public offered the chance to approve May's WA and those who would not. This is the problem - we could seek an extension for two years (let's say) but contingent on the existing A50 agreement being torn up and a new one negotiated.

    The problem is everyone is tired and wants it "over with" - extending it until 2021 or beyond would be unendurably frustrating.
    This is not a normal August. We are supposed to be leaving the EU in just over 2 months. We need decisions made and legislation passed whichever way we are going to jump. If MPs had approved May's deal, as they should have, then we would have left months ago and they could have their hols. As they screwed up they really should be at work.
    fat chance
    Oh I know but it is frustrating.
    politicians will deal with the issues in a politican's way

    they have no real intention of doing much work rather theyll bluster and debate, and line themselves up for a blame game,
    There's plenty to go around. As a leaver I feel my "team" has sort of got its act together after the defenestration of May although it may prove too little, too late. If I was a remainer I think I would be pulling my hair out.
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    I've amended the table above to INCLUDE the BREX which I cropped off in the earlier version

    Why are Brexit party last in wiki's table - should I amend it for them?
    Please do.
    They've made it really tricky for an html amateur like myself - damn liberals (in the American sense of the word)
    I've got the best part of 13 pages of numbers to change (swap 2 columns) - I guess I've got nothing better to do. If I'm goaded enough I'll do it.
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    surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So, how are we doing in the cricket?

    It's your turn to get a wicket now.

    I'm actually in the score book at Lord's, having taken a wicket there, and then carrying my bat. (0 Not Out)
    Were you a bowler ?
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    One more Tory defector they'll need for a VONC...
    No - Charlie Elphicke is really a Tory despite now being labelled an Independent since having the Whip withdrawn.Effective majority is 3 - rising to 4 whilst Hallam is vacant.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,380

    Nigelb said:

    On the we have no test batsmen front, Lancashire release once upon a time future England star Hameed:
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/23/lancashire-to-release-haseeb-hameed-at-end-of-county-season-cricket

    Might another county rehabilitate him ?
    He had, and just possibly still has, huge potential.

    Is it confidence issue? Or has something in his technique been exposed?
    I don’t think there was anything wrong with his technique, and it is something of a mystery. Of course it’s easy to be blasé about the pressures of expectation on someone so young; not everyone can cope.

    I’ve nothing against Lancashire (other than ancient prejudice), but I do wonder if a change of scene might not make the difference.
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the we have no test batsmen front, Lancashire release once upon a time future England star Hameed:
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/23/lancashire-to-release-haseeb-hameed-at-end-of-county-season-cricket

    Might another county rehabilitate him ?
    He had, and just possibly still has, huge potential.

    Is it confidence issue? Or has something in his technique been exposed?
    I don’t think there was anything wrong with his technique, and it is something of a mystery. Of course it’s easy to be blasé about the pressures of expectation on someone so young; not everyone can cope.

    I’ve nothing against Lancashire (other than ancient prejudice), but I do wonder if a change of scene might not make the difference.
    The couple of tests he played for england he looked a natural. It was like he was playing u18s.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    edited August 2019
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the we have no test batsmen front, Lancashire release once upon a time future England star Hameed:
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/23/lancashire-to-release-haseeb-hameed-at-end-of-county-season-cricket

    Might another county rehabilitate him ?
    He had, and just possibly still has, huge potential.

    Is it confidence issue? Or has something in his technique been exposed?
    I don’t think there was anything wrong with his technique, and it is something of a mystery. Of course it’s easy to be blasé about the pressures of expectation on someone so young; not everyone can cope.

    I’ve nothing against Lancashire (other than ancient prejudice), but I do wonder if a change of scene might not make the difference.
    There's a few things working in the test against all batsmen here

    i) Headingley is swinging more than it has ever done before (Cricviz analysis proves this)
    ii) The bowling attacks of both sides are very very high quality, much better than the batting lineups.
    iii) A hellacious amount of technical flaws on both sides batting.
    iv) Players aren't used to pushing through the tough stuff in order to get in so much with the far easier for batting white ball stuff they play plenty of.

  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,161

    One more Tory defector they'll need for a VONC...
    Not really. Needed anyway. If I was a Whip there is no way I would rely on Jared O'Mara turning up on the day.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    On the plus side the England bowling attack is as strong as I can remember in ages.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,380
    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the we have no test batsmen front, Lancashire release once upon a time future England star Hameed:
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/23/lancashire-to-release-haseeb-hameed-at-end-of-county-season-cricket

    Might another county rehabilitate him ?
    He had, and just possibly still has, huge potential.

    Is it confidence issue? Or has something in his technique been exposed?
    I don’t think there was anything wrong with his technique, and it is something of a mystery. Of course it’s easy to be blasé about the pressures of expectation on someone so young; not everyone can cope.

    I’ve nothing against Lancashire (other than ancient prejudice), but I do wonder if a change of scene might not make the difference.
    There's a few things working in the test against all batsmen here

    i) Headingley is swinging more than it has ever done before (Cricviz analysis proves this)
    ii) The bowling attacks of both sides are very very high quality, much better than the batting lineups.
    iii) A hellacious amount of technical flaws on both sides batting.
    iv) Players aren't used to pushing through the tough stuff in order to get in so much with the far easier for batting white ball stuff they play plenty of.

    A tough pitch, and excellent bowling should be meat and drink to a true test batter.
  • Options
    More on o'mara...

    During its investigation, the BBC uncovered staff running the MP's office without the proper security clearance required by Parliamentary authorities.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Pulpstar said:

    On the plus side the England bowling attack is as strong as I can remember in ages.

    surely the plus side is the cricket will soon be over and we can all watch some real sports :-)
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
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    surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the we have no test batsmen front, Lancashire release once upon a time future England star Hameed:
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/23/lancashire-to-release-haseeb-hameed-at-end-of-county-season-cricket

    Might another county rehabilitate him ?
    He had, and just possibly still has, huge potential.

    Is it confidence issue? Or has something in his technique been exposed?
    I don’t think there was anything wrong with his technique, and it is something of a mystery. Of course it’s easy to be blasé about the pressures of expectation on someone so young; not everyone can cope.

    I’ve nothing against Lancashire (other than ancient prejudice), but I do wonder if a change of scene might not make the difference.
    There's a few things working in the test against all batsmen here

    i) Headingley is swinging more than it has ever done before (Cricviz analysis proves this)
    ii) The bowling attacks of both sides are very very high quality, much better than the batting lineups.
    iii) A hellacious amount of technical flaws on both sides batting.
    iv) Players aren't used to pushing through the tough stuff in order to get in so much with the far easier for batting white ball stuff they play plenty of.

    A tough pitch, and excellent bowling should be meat and drink to a true test batter.
    But...….he is not playing in this test.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,828
    DavidL said:



    This is not a normal August. We are supposed to be leaving the EU in just over 2 months. We need decisions made and legislation passed whichever way we are going to jump. If MPs had approved May's deal, as they should have, then we would have left months ago and they could have their hols. As they screwed up they really should be at work.

    This is turning into the new meme. Parliament didn't vote for the WA because it wasn't a WA that was able to command the support of Parliament. Technically it might be a superb Deal and it could be fantastic for Britain BUT none of that matters.

    Perhaps it was impossible to come up with a Deal which would have passed the Commons with the arithmetic of the 2017 GE called by May which was supposed to provide her with a majority with which she could have forced through the WA.

    Yes, it's her fault - possibly against her better judgement, she went for a GE gamble and it failed. She should have walked on the Friday morning and allowed Boris or whoever to get whatever Deal he could but she didn't. Her overactive sense of duty gland kicked in and the result has been two years of paralysis by division and self-indulgence.

    And yet apparently it's all the Opposition's fault. Now, I'm no fan of Corbyn by any stretch but I don't blame him for being opportunistic - had he acquiesced, I believe the WA would have passed, May would have quit and the new leader (Boris?) would have gone for a GE taking credit for the Conservatives for getting us out of the EU. I think he would have won big so I can understand why Corbyn didn`t want to play ball.

    Yet it is all his fault - the Conservatives of course had the numbers to get the WA over the line had they been a disciplined united party instead of a self-seeking rabble but the truth is this entire exercise has been about the Conservative Party trying to resolve its long-lasting tedious fixation with Europe.

    With hindsight, once they got back into office in 2010 some sort of showdown was inevitable - Cameron hoped a GE victory might buy him some loyalty and unity but it did not. It would have been so much easier if the Party had split in Opposition in the 2000s.

  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    On the we have no test batsmen front, Lancashire release once upon a time future England star Hameed:
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/23/lancashire-to-release-haseeb-hameed-at-end-of-county-season-cricket

    Might another county rehabilitate him ?
    He had, and just possibly still has, huge potential.

    Is it confidence issue? Or has something in his technique been exposed?
    I don’t think there was anything wrong with his technique, and it is something of a mystery. Of course it’s easy to be blasé about the pressures of expectation on someone so young; not everyone can cope.

    I’ve nothing against Lancashire (other than ancient prejudice), but I do wonder if a change of scene might not make the difference.
    There's a few things working in the test against all batsmen here

    i) Headingley is swinging more than it has ever done before (Cricviz analysis proves this)
    ii) The bowling attacks of both sides are very very high quality, much better than the batting lineups.
    iii) A hellacious amount of technical flaws on both sides batting.
    iv) Players aren't used to pushing through the tough stuff in order to get in so much with the far easier for batting white ball stuff they play plenty of.

    A tough pitch, and excellent bowling should be meat and drink to a true test batter.
    But...….he is not playing in this test.
    Doesn't look like Australia need him. This has been a deeply depressing day.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So, how are we doing in the cricket?

    It's your turn to get a wicket now.

    I'm actually in the score book at Lord's, having taken a wicket there, and then carrying my bat. (0 Not Out)
    What match was that?
    @Byronic is nailed on for pb father of the year.
  • Options
    Since Boris became pm he has led the polls apart from one with a 1% labour lead and some of the leads are substantial. However, I do not think they are grounds for a GE though it is clear labour is in a very bad place, not just evidenced in the polls but in virtually every recent local election their vote share is in freefall

    My own opinion is that Boris will achieve some change to the backstop and it will be sufficient to present it to the HOC on a free vote with rejection resulting in no deal

    Now, many on here may take task with me and of course I could be wrong but it is not entirely fanciful.
This discussion has been closed.