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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If O’Mara does quit as an MP on September 3rd the ensuing by-e

SystemSystem Posts: 11,683
edited August 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If O’Mara does quit as an MP on September 3rd the ensuing by-election will be a backcloth in the build up to October 31st

The Sheffield Hallam MP, Jared O’Mara, has made it clear that as soon as the Commons returns from its summer break he will step down thus triggering what could be an interesting by-election in Nick Clegg’s old seat.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    First!
  • Options
    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Second like Labour.
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    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Third but we have to wait first for labour to move writ, if they don’t immediately then the lib dems can
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,282
    edited August 2019
    Third like - well, who?

    LibDems normally need tactical voting to win this seat.

    It was won originally from the Tories with Labour tactical voters.

    When Labour targeted Clegg in 2015, Clegg cling on with Tory tactical votes. These dropped away in 2017 allowing Labour to win.

    The by-election will be dominated by Brexit. Labour is campaigning hard, and defending its win, so I can’t see the LibDems getting any tactical votes from them. And Tory leavers will be unlikely to vote tactically.

    LibDem success hangs on pulling over Tory remainers (as happened in Brecon) and taking a chunk of the Remain vote from Labour (as is happening everywhere). This does make the LibDems clear favourites.

    The LibDems would benefit from one of the old parties falling into a clear third position in order to offer scope for tactical voting the next time.
  • Options
    franklynfranklyn Posts: 297
    This was written by a GP friend of mine
    In four working days I will supposedly know if I am still welcome in the U.K.

    About 2 years ago I downloaded the form to apply for EU settled status the first time. 85 pages, many reports at the time how impossible it was to fill in, the first stories of ridiculous rejections hitting the news , I had to give it a try for the sake of my family. 24 pages or so into it I had to stop, gasp and ultimately give up.

    I was asked to give every single time I had left the country , start and end day. I am EU citizen, well off and not afraid of flying. I also had given a damn to my CO2 footprint for many years. Maybe here was the punishment. I knew I had been out of the country a lot, here, there, everywhere. Zagreb, Dublin, Seattle, Spain, Turkey, Greece, Germany, France, Holland, whatever. I also knew, even with weekend trips included, I had never have been outside of the country for more than the maximum of 6 months. I am a working doctor in the NHS after all. 6 weeks of annual leave for much of the time, the rest to find and pay for a locum. But I would struggle to reconstruct reliably my last year of travelling, let alone the last 5 or - as actually demanded - the last 23 years. I asked on this forum, I asked on other places for advice. From writing a letter stating I had never left for longer than... to simply making it up were the suggestions I got. Former I felt would be ignored, latter would risk my GMC registration, lying on official forms is an offence after all. So I wrote to my MP and MSP and put things to the files. I had tried. If the country wanted me to jump through impossible hoops, I would tell the country to fuck off. Canada needs GPs , I was told.

    My MP kept me up to date with his endeavours to fix things and sent plenty cheery messages how I was needed and should not give up. I decided to wait. One thing I knew, I would not lie on an official form, even if it meant I had no status in the end.

    9 months ago my MSP and our local NHS board chief exec wrote that there was now a special thing set up for NHS staff and I should try it. So I did. A vastly shortened form, a blank assertion that I was in the country for 5 + years and never left for longer than 6 months, so that was all good. But it also asked me to send the passport to somewhere in.Croydon for however long they felt they needed it. I have elderly parents, I do frequent charitable work abroad, I want to go.on family holidays. In short, I can not afford leaving my passport with people who are known to lose things all the time.

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    franklynfranklyn Posts: 297
    Part two of post
    The alternative was to travel to an identity verification centre. So I checked those out. The nearest was in Lanarkshire, other side of Glasgow, I am in remote Argyll. Nevertheless, I called them. You.needed to make an appointment, not according to your choice but theirs (like NHS OPD in the bad old days) needed to be there in time and the times they offered the service were always during mid day working hours. So I would have to look at booking a full day locum at vast cost for a treck to Glasgow and beyond, hope not to end up in a traffic jam to arrive in time for someone to look at my passport - and all because my local council could not be arsed to set up a ID check centre themselves. The clamouring that EU citizens are welcome in Scotland clearly did not extend so far as to compel my council make an effort to check my ID in a place I can actually attend without paying hundreds of pounds for a locum. So I gave up again. Canada still wants GPs and even if their forms might be long and complicated too, I knew from my travel in the last summer that the welcome would be genuine, heartfelt and actually mean something.

    Then the first reports of the ID check app appeared. Faulty, flawed, weird, failing without reason were the common theme of reviews. I had other things to do, equally exasperating like appraisal or more important, like burying an aunt.

    I finally gave it another go today. It did work. Not seamless and flawless, but it did work. It took some experimenting , the RFID chip is only read when the phone lies exactly above it, though neither the passport tells you where it hides the chip nor does the app tell you it needs that level of proximity, so I had a few goes, but it did work. I am now one of the one million who have tried to register.

    Over to the Home Office. In four working days I am told I will know if I am considered settled or if I should speak with one of the many recruiters from Canada who are currently approaching me on LinkedIn.

    I wrote this tale, because I heard it too often, we EU citizens had supposedly 3 years to get registered.

    Maybe we had them. But if I had tried earlier I would have been either at risk of getting struck off for lying on forms or £500 poorer for having to pay for a locum. I can do without either. I like Scotland, but being made welcome looks slightly different. Maybe this last attempt works. Otherwise it is Canada.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,298
    edited August 2019
    IanB2 said:

    Third like - well, who?

    LibDems normally need tactical voting to win this seat.

    It was won originally from the Tories with Labour tactical voters.

    When Labour targeted Clegg in 2015, Clegg cling on with Tory tactical votes. These dropped away in 2017 allowing Labour to win.

    The by-election will be dominated by Brexit. Labour is campaigning hard, and defending its win, so I can’t see the LibDems getting any tactical votes from them. And Tory leavers will be unlikely to vote tactically.

    LibDem success hangs on pulling over Tory remainers (as happened in Brecon) and taking a chunk of the Remain vote from Labour (as is happening everywhere). This does make the LibDems clear favourites.

    The LibDems would benefit from one of the old parties falling into a clear third position in order to offer scope for tactical voting the next time.

    Anyone but labour hopefully

    And if I recall you are on your way across the Atlantic on one of the Queens tomorrow

    Have a wonderful time
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,968
    franklyn said:

    Part two of post
    The alternative was to travel to an identity verification centre. So I checked those out. The nearest was in Lanarkshire, other side of Glasgow, I am in remote Argyll. Nevertheless, I called them. You.needed to make an appointment, not according to your choice but theirs (like NHS OPD in the bad old days) needed to be there in time and the times they offered the service were always during mid day working hours. So I would have to look at booking a full day locum at vast cost for a treck to Glasgow and beyond, hope not to end up in a traffic jam to arrive in time for someone to look at my passport - and all because my local council could not be arsed to set up a ID check centre themselves. The clamouring that EU citizens are welcome in Scotland clearly did not extend so far as to compel my council make an effort to check my ID in a place I can actually attend without paying hundreds of pounds for a locum. So I gave up again. Canada still wants GPs and even if their forms might be long and complicated too, I knew from my travel in the last summer that the welcome would be genuine, heartfelt and actually mean something.

    Then the first reports of the ID check app appeared. Faulty, flawed, weird, failing without reason were the common theme of reviews. I had other things to do, equally exasperating like appraisal or more important, like burying an aunt.

    I finally gave it another go today. It did work. Not seamless and flawless, but it did work. It took some experimenting , the RFID chip is only read when the phone lies exactly above it, though neither the passport tells you where it hides the chip nor does the app tell you it needs that level of proximity, so I had a few goes, but it did work. I am now one of the one million who have tried to register.

    Over to the Home Office. In four working days I am told I will know if I am considered settled or if I should speak with one of the many recruiters from Canada who are currently approaching me on LinkedIn.

    I wrote this tale, because I heard it too often, we EU citizens had supposedly 3 years to get registered.

    Maybe we had them. But if I had tried earlier I would have been either at risk of getting struck off for lying on forms or £500 poorer for having to pay for a locum. I can do without either. I like Scotland, but being made welcome looks slightly different. Maybe this last attempt works. Otherwise it is Canada.

    Yeah. It's that Brussels red tape we are freeing ourselves from.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Little point in Labour moving the writ until the likelihood of a GE becomes clear. Reasonable to wait until after party conferences with no by election before November.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,282

    IanB2 said:

    Third like - well, who?

    LibDems normally need tactical voting to win this seat.

    It was won originally from the Tories with Labour tactical voters.

    When Labour targeted Clegg in 2015, Clegg cling on with Tory tactical votes. These dropped away in 2017 allowing Labour to win.

    The by-election will be dominated by Brexit. Labour is campaigning hard, and defending its win, so I can’t see the LibDems getting any tactical votes from them. And Tory leavers will be unlikely to vote tactically.

    LibDem success hangs on pulling over Tory remainers (as happened in Brecon) and taking a chunk of the Remain vote from Labour (as is happening everywhere). This does make the LibDems clear favourites.

    The LibDems would benefit from one of the old parties falling into a clear third position in order to offer scope for tactical voting the next time.

    Anyone but labour hopefully

    And if I recall you are on your way across the Atlantic on one of the Queens tomorrow

    Have a wonderful time
    Hello Big_G, and thanks for remembering. Yes, I am ready to depart tomorrow, with more luggage than I have ever travelled with before. Normally I pride myself on travelling light but that isn’t going to work for this trip.

    The weather forecast for the outward looks good, provided we steer south of one windy patch, and yesterday I got upgraded to a window cabin which was a piece of luck. I will enjoy the crossing more than the dog, I fear.
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    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Sorry to hear about the Doctors experience of Brexit related red tape! An interesting story, the Brexit supporting media would do better showing how the project they supply endless propaganda supporting has real impacts on those who offer professional services many in the UK will require at some point.

    In relation to the Sheffield Hallam by-election, it will be interesting to see whether Farage will himself contest it or is he chicken? :wink:
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,968
    Surely a GP who has worked for the NHS for years, is, in effect, a quasi government employee?
    Shouldn't 23 years of tax records be proof of settled status?
    Or is that naive?
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    justin124 said:

    Little point in Labour moving the writ until the likelihood of a GE becomes clear. Reasonable to wait until after party conferences with no by election before November.

    Any MP can move the writ and given O'Mara has left LAB then I can see the LDs doing it.
  • Options
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Third like - well, who?

    LibDems normally need tactical voting to win this seat.

    It was won originally from the Tories with Labour tactical voters.

    When Labour targeted Clegg in 2015, Clegg cling on with Tory tactical votes. These dropped away in 2017 allowing Labour to win.

    The by-election will be dominated by Brexit. Labour is campaigning hard, and defending its win, so I can’t see the LibDems getting any tactical votes from them. And Tory leavers will be unlikely to vote tactically.

    LibDem success hangs on pulling over Tory remainers (as happened in Brecon) and taking a chunk of the Remain vote from Labour (as is happening everywhere). This does make the LibDems clear favourites.

    The LibDems would benefit from one of the old parties falling into a clear third position in order to offer scope for tactical voting the next time.

    Anyone but labour hopefully

    And if I recall you are on your way across the Atlantic on one of the Queens tomorrow

    Have a wonderful time
    Hello Big_G, and thanks for remembering. Yes, I am ready to depart tomorrow, with more luggage than I have ever travelled with before. Normally I pride myself on travelling light but that isn’t going to work for this trip.

    The weather forecast for the outward looks good, provided we steer south of one windy patch, and yesterday I got upgraded to a window cabin which was a piece of luck. I will enjoy the crossing more than the dog, I fear.
    The one thing about going on a cruise ship is you do not need a baggage allowance and how your dog reacts will be interesting.

    And my wife and I follow you 3 weeks today on Sapphire Princess on a return trip to Nova Scotia and New York
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    justin124 said:

    Little point in Labour moving the writ until the likelihood of a GE becomes clear. Reasonable to wait until after party conferences with no by election before November.

    I disagree, the UK is at a turning point. The people have not been represented by the incumbent MP. He should have quit a long time ago. History has recorded MPs being elected days before a GE or in some cases a by-election being suspended for a GE to commence. Some MPs seeking re-election have had elections delayed due to the death of rival candidates. In other words democracy goes on despite set backs and problems parties or individual's experience.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    dixiedean said:

    franklyn said:

    Part two of post
    The alternative was to travel to an identity verification centre. So I checked those out. The nearest was in Lanarkshire, other side of Glasgow, I am in remote Argyll. Nevertheless, I called them. You.needed to make an appointment, not according to your choice but theirs (like NHS OPD in the bad old days) needed to be there in time and the times they offered the service were always during mid day working hours. So I would have to look at booking a full day locum at vast cost for a treck to Glasgow and beyond, hope not to end up in a traffic jam to arrive in time for someone to look at my passport - and all because my local council could not be arsed to set up a ID check centre themselves. The clamouring that EU citizens are welcome in Scotland clearly did not extend so far as to compel my council make an effort to check my ID in a place I can actually attend without paying hundreds of pounds for a locum. So I gave up again. Canada still wants GPs and even if their forms might be long and complicated too, I knew from my travel in the last summer that the welcome would be genuine, heartfelt and actually mean something.

    Then the first reports of the ID check app appeared. Faulty, flawed, weird, failing without reason were the common theme of reviews. I had other things to do, equally exasperating like appraisal or more important, like burying an aunt.

    I finally gave it another go today. It did work. Not seamless and flawless, but it did work. It took some experimenting , the RFID chip is only read when the phone lies exactly above it, though neither the passport tells you where it hides the chip nor does the app tell you it needs that level of proximity, so I had a few goes, but it did work. I am now one of the one million who have tried to register.

    Over to the Home Office. In four working days I am told I will know if I am considered settled or if I should speak with one of the many recruiters from Canada who are currently approaching me on LinkedIn.

    I wrote this tale, because I heard it too often, we EU citizens had supposedly 3 years to get registered.

    Maybe we had them. But if I had tried earlier I would have been either at risk of getting struck off for lying on forms or £500 poorer for having to pay for a locum. I can do without either. I like Scotland, but being made welcome looks slightly different. Maybe this last attempt works. Otherwise it is Canada.

    Yeah. It's that Brussels red tape we are freeing ourselves from.
    If he didn’t want to send his passport away he could pay for the expedited service. To be frank the post seems like a long whinge: the form is too long, I don’t like Croydon, I don’t want to do what everyone else does and post my passport, it took several goes to get the app to work.

    And if I don’t get what I want I’m going to Canada! That’ll teach you!
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,616
    After Brecon isn't it the turn of the LibDems to stand aside to give the Greens a clear run?
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,968

    justin124 said:

    Little point in Labour moving the writ until the likelihood of a GE becomes clear. Reasonable to wait until after party conferences with no by election before November.

    I disagree, the UK is at a turning point. The people have not been represented by the incumbent MP. He should have quit a long time ago. History has recorded MPs being elected days before a GE or in some cases a by-election being suspended for a GE to commence. Some MPs seeking re-election have had elections delayed due to the death of rival candidates. In other words democracy goes on despite set backs and problems parties or individual's experience.
    Wasn't Manchester Gorton arranged, then cancelled, shortly before GE 17?
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    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    dixiedean said:

    justin124 said:

    Little point in Labour moving the writ until the likelihood of a GE becomes clear. Reasonable to wait until after party conferences with no by election before November.

    I disagree, the UK is at a turning point. The people have not been represented by the incumbent MP. He should have quit a long time ago. History has recorded MPs being elected days before a GE or in some cases a by-election being suspended for a GE to commence. Some MPs seeking re-election have had elections delayed due to the death of rival candidates. In other words democracy goes on despite set backs and problems parties or individual's experience.
    Wasn't Manchester Gorton arranged, then cancelled, shortly before GE 17?
    Indeed, it was cancelled. I have the wiki page here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Manchester_Gorton_by-election
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    justin124 said:

    Little point in Labour moving the writ until the likelihood of a GE becomes clear. Reasonable to wait until after party conferences with no by election before November.

    Depriving residents of Sheffield Hallam representation for party political gain?
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    Little point in Labour moving the writ until the likelihood of a GE becomes clear. Reasonable to wait until after party conferences with no by election before November.

    Any MP can move the writ and given O'Mara has left LAB then I can see the LDs doing it.
    That is true - but Labour could seek to vote it down and might well receive the acquiescence of the Tories - who could well abstain. Frankly I was surprised the Tories moved the writ for Brecon & Radnor when it would have been reasonable to wait until the autumn. There is a convention - of circa 30 years -. that the writ should be moved within three months of a vacancy occurring. Back in the 1966 Parliament , Stephen Swingler MP for Newcastle under Lyme died in February 1969 with the by election not being held until the end of October.
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    surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469

    After Brecon isn't it the turn of the LibDems to stand aside to give the Greens a clear run?

    It only works one way.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,336



    The one thing about going on a cruise ship is you do not need a baggage allowance and how your dog reacts will be interesting.

    And my wife and I follow you 3 weeks today on Sapphire Princess on a return trip to Nova Scotia and New York

    Good luck both. On the one trip I was talked into doing with a dog-friendly friend and her two puppies, the dogs seemed reasonably content in their quarters. I quite enjoyed it too though one has to be ready to suspend normal life - no sneaking down to the internet booth to check on PB at £10/minute or whatever it is...
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    dixiedean said:

    justin124 said:

    Little point in Labour moving the writ until the likelihood of a GE becomes clear. Reasonable to wait until after party conferences with no by election before November.

    I disagree, the UK is at a turning point. The people have not been represented by the incumbent MP. He should have quit a long time ago. History has recorded MPs being elected days before a GE or in some cases a by-election being suspended for a GE to commence. Some MPs seeking re-election have had elections delayed due to the death of rival candidates. In other words democracy goes on despite set backs and problems parties or individual's experience.
    Wasn't Manchester Gorton arranged, then cancelled, shortly before GE 17?
    Indeed, it was cancelled. I have the wiki page here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Manchester_Gorton_by-election
    But had a GE been expected the writ for Manchester Gorton would not have been moved. Ditto the writ for Liverpool Edge Hill in March 1979.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,225
    Jared not available to head the GNU then.

    But seriously - a slam dunk for the Libs one would have thought.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,779

    justin124 said:

    Little point in Labour moving the writ until the likelihood of a GE becomes clear. Reasonable to wait until after party conferences with no by election before November.

    Any MP can move the writ and given O'Mara has left LAB then I can see the LDs doing it.
    They must do surely.

    The LD's have this tiny window where they can tap into 50% of the UK vote that can't go anywhere else. It's still there but Labour have moved in the furniture vans.

    Is Swinson on holiday?

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    dodradedodrade Posts: 595
    dixiedean said:

    justin124 said:

    Little point in Labour moving the writ until the likelihood of a GE becomes clear. Reasonable to wait until after party conferences with no by election before November.

    I disagree, the UK is at a turning point. The people have not been represented by the incumbent MP. He should have quit a long time ago. History has recorded MPs being elected days before a GE or in some cases a by-election being suspended for a GE to commence. Some MPs seeking re-election have had elections delayed due to the death of rival candidates. In other words democracy goes on despite set backs and problems parties or individual's experience.
    Wasn't Manchester Gorton arranged, then cancelled, shortly before GE 17?
    Would the result have been different if May hadn't called the GE and the by-election gone ahead?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,282



    The one thing about going on a cruise ship is you do not need a baggage allowance and how your dog reacts will be interesting.

    And my wife and I follow you 3 weeks today on Sapphire Princess on a return trip to Nova Scotia and New York

    Good luck both. On the one trip I was talked into doing with a dog-friendly friend and her two puppies, the dogs seemed reasonably content in their quarters. I quite enjoyed it too though one has to be ready to suspend normal life - no sneaking down to the internet booth to check on PB at £10/minute or whatever it is...
    Hopefully that will be easy next week, when nothing is likely to happen, my not having OGH’s blessing (or curse?) in that regard. Coming back in October however is another matter....
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Omnium said:

    justin124 said:

    Little point in Labour moving the writ until the likelihood of a GE becomes clear. Reasonable to wait until after party conferences with no by election before November.

    Any MP can move the writ and given O'Mara has left LAB then I can see the LDs doing it.
    They must do surely.

    The LD's have this tiny window where they can tap into 50% of the UK vote that can't go anywhere else. It's still there but Labour have moved in the furniture vans.

    Is Swinson on holiday?

    But if such an attempt is voted down, the writ cannot be moved again until the next Parliamentary session.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,336
    franklyn said:



    I wrote this tale, because I heard it too often, we EU citizens had supposedly 3 years to get registered.

    Maybe we had them. But if I had tried earlier I would have been either at risk of getting struck off for lying on forms or £500 poorer for having to pay for a locum. I can do without either. I like Scotland, but being made welcome looks slightly different. Maybe this last attempt works. Otherwise it is Canada.

    Good luck Franklyn! - hope it works out.

    An effort is clearly being made but it's seemingly haphazard. An acquaintance of the council CEO says he has been contacted FOURTEEN times to remind him to do the settled status procedure, but a Greek colleague at work has not been contacted at all (both have been here for years), though she is sending the application next week anyway.
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    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Little point in Labour moving the writ until the likelihood of a GE becomes clear. Reasonable to wait until after party conferences with no by election before November.

    Any MP can move the writ and given O'Mara has left LAB then I can see the LDs doing it.
    That is true - but Labour could seek to vote it down and might well receive the acquiescence of the Tories - who could well abstain. Frankly I was surprised the Tories moved the writ for Brecon & Radnor when it would have been reasonable to wait until the autumn. There is a convention - of circa 30 years -. that the writ should be moved within three months of a vacancy occurring. Back in the 1966 Parliament , Stephen Swingler MP for Newcastle under Lyme died in February 1969 with the by election not being held until the end of October.
    I disagree, By-elections should in the future be mandated to be held within say 40 days of the death of the sitting member. People need representation and the services MPs are elected to fulfil. Messing around with 'moving the writ' is an archaic and out of date concept. It should be automatic and arbitrary that By-elections are immediate once the criteria for filling a vacancy are met.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,336



    Good luck Franklyn! - hope it works out.

    Sorry, I see it's not you but a friend. Good luck anyway...
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Little point in Labour moving the writ until the likelihood of a GE becomes clear. Reasonable to wait until after party conferences with no by election before November.

    Any MP can move the writ and given O'Mara has left LAB then I can see the LDs doing it.
    That is true - but Labour could seek to vote it down and might well receive the acquiescence of the Tories - who could well abstain. Frankly I was surprised the Tories moved the writ for Brecon & Radnor when it would have been reasonable to wait until the autumn. There is a convention - of circa 30 years -. that the writ should be moved within three months of a vacancy occurring. Back in the 1966 Parliament , Stephen Swingler MP for Newcastle under Lyme died in February 1969 with the by election not being held until the end of October.
    I disagree, By-elections should in the future be mandated to be held within say 40 days of the death of the sitting member. People need representation and the services MPs are elected to fulfil. Messing around with 'moving the writ' is an archaic and out of date concept. It should be automatic and arbitrary that By-elections are immediate once the criteria for filling a vacancy are met.
    We can all disagree with the convention - and the 1969 example would not now be repeated. Hence, the 3 month rule of more recent years.
  • Options



    The one thing about going on a cruise ship is you do not need a baggage allowance and how your dog reacts will be interesting.

    And my wife and I follow you 3 weeks today on Sapphire Princess on a return trip to Nova Scotia and New York

    Good luck both. On the one trip I was talked into doing with a dog-friendly friend and her two puppies, the dogs seemed reasonably content in their quarters. I quite enjoyed it too though one has to be ready to suspend normal life - no sneaking down to the internet booth to check on PB at £10/minute or whatever it is...
    Thanks Nick. It is my wife's 80th birthday present and we have both wanted to sail into New York since the 1950's

    Of course being retired means no work stress and because of the numbers of cruises we have completed with them we each receive 500 minutes free internet access, making 1,000 minutes to keep upto date on UK politics
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,431
    edited August 2019
    Charles said:



    If he didn’t want to send his passport away he could pay for the expedited service. To be frank the post seems like a long whinge: the form is too long, I don’t like Croydon, I don’t want to do what everyone else does and post my passport, it took several goes to get the app to work.

    And if I don’t get what I want I’m going to Canada! That’ll teach you!

    I agree. I sympathised with him a bit over the 85 page form, but not over the impossible journey from Argyll to Glasgow - really? His status to remain in the UK wasn't worth taking a day off? This is the guy that flies abroad so much he can't remember his trips.
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    justin124 said:

    dixiedean said:

    justin124 said:

    Little point in Labour moving the writ until the likelihood of a GE becomes clear. Reasonable to wait until after party conferences with no by election before November.

    I disagree, the UK is at a turning point. The people have not been represented by the incumbent MP. He should have quit a long time ago. History has recorded MPs being elected days before a GE or in some cases a by-election being suspended for a GE to commence. Some MPs seeking re-election have had elections delayed due to the death of rival candidates. In other words democracy goes on despite set backs and problems parties or individual's experience.
    Wasn't Manchester Gorton arranged, then cancelled, shortly before GE 17?
    Indeed, it was cancelled. I have the wiki page here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Manchester_Gorton_by-election
    But had a GE been expected the writ for Manchester Gorton would not have been moved. Ditto the writ for Liverpool Edge Hill in March 1979.
    We are not halfway through the Parliament yet. Yes, Boris might have to face the public in a GE. But on the other hand he might not. If I were a voter in Sheffield Hallam I would feel pretty cheesed off with the way democracy has worked recently and I would wish to have my view communicated in a By-election, which could of course be superseded by a GE.
  • Options
    I'm not sure it will really send any sort of message if the LDs take back a super-remainy seat like this. It would be a shock if they didn't.

    What is more interesting is if O'Mara stands down before or after the confidence vote in Boris. I'm sure Boris would much rather it was before!
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,968
    dodrade said:

    dixiedean said:

    justin124 said:

    Little point in Labour moving the writ until the likelihood of a GE becomes clear. Reasonable to wait until after party conferences with no by election before November.

    I disagree, the UK is at a turning point. The people have not been represented by the incumbent MP. He should have quit a long time ago. History has recorded MPs being elected days before a GE or in some cases a by-election being suspended for a GE to commence. Some MPs seeking re-election have had elections delayed due to the death of rival candidates. In other words democracy goes on despite set backs and problems parties or individual's experience.
    Wasn't Manchester Gorton arranged, then cancelled, shortly before GE 17?
    Would the result have been different if May hadn't called the GE and the by-election gone ahead?
    According to Wiki, Farron thought the LDs would win. Then again, he thought they'd win at the GE too, when Labour won by 31k +. With the LDs 4th.
  • Options
    surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    No polls ? What will HYUFD do ?
  • Options

    No polls ? What will HYUFD do ?

    Make them up !!!!!!
  • Options
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Little point in Labour moving the writ until the likelihood of a GE becomes clear. Reasonable to wait until after party conferences with no by election before November.

    Any MP can move the writ and given O'Mara has left LAB then I can see the LDs doing it.
    That is true - but Labour could seek to vote it down and might well receive the acquiescence of the Tories - who could well abstain. Frankly I was surprised the Tories moved the writ for Brecon & Radnor when it would have been reasonable to wait until the autumn. There is a convention - of circa 30 years -. that the writ should be moved within three months of a vacancy occurring. Back in the 1966 Parliament , Stephen Swingler MP for Newcastle under Lyme died in February 1969 with the by election not being held until the end of October.
    I disagree, By-elections should in the future be mandated to be held within say 40 days of the death of the sitting member. People need representation and the services MPs are elected to fulfil. Messing around with 'moving the writ' is an archaic and out of date concept. It should be automatic and arbitrary that By-elections are immediate once the criteria for filling a vacancy are met.
    We can all disagree with the convention - and the 1969 example would not now be repeated. Hence, the 3 month rule of more recent years.
    Leicestershire NW was left without an MP from David Taylor's death on 26/12/09 until the 2010GE.
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    No polls ? What will HYUFD do ?

    IIRC he is at a wedding in Portugal! :wink:

    Hope he is having a good time if that is the case.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611
    Charles said:

    dixiedean said:

    franklyn said:

    Part two of post
    The alternative was to travel to an identity verification centre. So I checked those out. The nearest was in Lanarkshire, other side of Glasgow, I am in remote Argyll. Nevertheless, I called them. You.needed to make an appointment, not according to your choice but theirs (like NHS OPD in the bad old days) needed to be there in time and the times they offered the service were always during mid day working hours. So I would have to look at booking a full day locum at vast cost for a treck to Glasgow and beyond, hope not to end up in a traffic jam to arrive in time for someone to look at my passport - and all because my local council could not be arsed to set up a ID check centre themselves...

    Then the first reports of the ID check app appeared. Faulty, flawed, weird, failing without reason were the common theme of reviews. I had other things to do, equally exasperating like appraisal or more important, like burying an aunt.

    I finally gave it another go today. It did work. Not seamless and flawless, but it did work. It took some experimenting , the RFID chip is only read when the phone lies exactly above it, though neither the passport tells you where it hides the chip nor does the app tell you it needs that level of proximity, so I had a few goes, but it did work. I am now one of the one million who have tried to register.

    Over to the Home Office. In four working days I am told I will know if I am considered settled or if I should speak with one of the many recruiters from Canada who are currently approaching me on LinkedIn.

    I wrote this tale, because I heard it too often, we EU citizens had supposedly 3 years to get registered.

    Maybe we had them. But if I had tried earlier I would have been either at risk of getting struck off for lying on forms or £500 poorer for having to pay for a locum. I can do without either. I like Scotland, but being made welcome looks slightly different. Maybe this last attempt works. Otherwise it is Canada.

    Yeah. It's that Brussels red tape we are freeing ourselves from.
    If he didn’t want to send his passport away he could pay for the expedited service. To be frank the post seems like a long whinge: the form is too long, I don’t like Croydon, I don’t want to do what everyone else does and post my passport, it took several goes to get the app to work.

    And if I don’t get what I want I’m going to Canada! That’ll teach you!
    Have you any actual experience of interacting with the Home Office in similar circumstances ?
  • Options

    Charles said:



    If he didn’t want to send his passport away he could pay for the expedited service. To be frank the post seems like a long whinge: the form is too long, I don’t like Croydon, I don’t want to do what everyone else does and post my passport, it took several goes to get the app to work.

    And if I don’t get what I want I’m going to Canada! That’ll teach you!

    I agree. I sympathised with him a bit over the 85 page form, but not over the impossible journey from Argyll to Glasgow - really? His status to remain in the UK wasn't worth taking a day off? This is the guy that flies abroad so much he can't remember his trips.
    Apparently emigrating to Canada would be less inconvenient than to go to this appointment.

    Perhaps he thinks there would be no form filling in Canada.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,968



    The one thing about going on a cruise ship is you do not need a baggage allowance and how your dog reacts will be interesting.

    And my wife and I follow you 3 weeks today on Sapphire Princess on a return trip to Nova Scotia and New York

    Good luck both. On the one trip I was talked into doing with a dog-friendly friend and her two puppies, the dogs seemed reasonably content in their quarters. I quite enjoyed it too though one has to be ready to suspend normal life - no sneaking down to the internet booth to check on PB at £10/minute or whatever it is...
    Thanks Nick. It is my wife's 80th birthday present and we have both wanted to sail into New York since the 1950's

    Of course being retired means no work stress and because of the numbers of cruises we have completed with them we each receive 500 minutes free internet access, making 1,000 minutes to keep upto date on UK politics
    Mrs G doesn't object to you using her 500 minutes on PB? You have a most understanding partner! :)
  • Options
    dixiedean said:



    The one thing about going on a cruise ship is you do not need a baggage allowance and how your dog reacts will be interesting.

    And my wife and I follow you 3 weeks today on Sapphire Princess on a return trip to Nova Scotia and New York

    Good luck both. On the one trip I was talked into doing with a dog-friendly friend and her two puppies, the dogs seemed reasonably content in their quarters. I quite enjoyed it too though one has to be ready to suspend normal life - no sneaking down to the internet booth to check on PB at £10/minute or whatever it is...
    Thanks Nick. It is my wife's 80th birthday present and we have both wanted to sail into New York since the 1950's

    Of course being retired means no work stress and because of the numbers of cruises we have completed with them we each receive 500 minutes free internet access, making 1,000 minutes to keep upto date on UK politics
    Mrs G doesn't object to you using her 500 minutes on PB? You have a most understanding partner! :)
    She would rather keep away from politics bless her after 55 years of married life but I am sure she will send a few whats aps
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611
    edited August 2019
    Root is a fine, possibly great batsman.
    He is, however a mediocre captain at best. Time for a change ?*
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/24/joe-root-england-inner-boycott-ashes-third-test

    * Once the current series is done.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,968

    No polls ? What will HYUFD do ?

    IIRC he is at a wedding in Portugal! :wink:

    Hope he is having a good time if that is the case.
    He certainly will be. There are loads of polls there for the October 6 election!
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,978
    edited August 2019
    Nigelb said:

    Root is a fine, possibly great batsman.
    He is, however a mediocre captain at best. Time for a change ?*
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/24/joe-root-england-inner-boycott-ashes-third-test

    * Once the current series is done.

    It's been a doughty performance from Joe Root this afternoon, but I still think England's chances of winning this test stand at very marginally above zero. The second new ball should arrive shortly after 11.30, and they could well be all out by lunchtime.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,668



    The one thing about going on a cruise ship is you do not need a baggage allowance and how your dog reacts will be interesting.

    And my wife and I follow you 3 weeks today on Sapphire Princess on a return trip to Nova Scotia and New York

    Good luck both. On the one trip I was talked into doing with a dog-friendly friend and her two puppies, the dogs seemed reasonably content in their quarters. I quite enjoyed it too though one has to be ready to suspend normal life - no sneaking down to the internet booth to check on PB at £10/minute or whatever it is...
    Thanks Nick. It is my wife's 80th birthday present and we have both wanted to sail into New York since the 1950's

    Of course being retired means no work stress and because of the numbers of cruises we have completed with them we each receive 500 minutes free internet access, making 1,000 minutes to keep upto date on UK politics
    Enjoy your trip Big_G.

    I've had a similar wish to sail into New York, so for my 60th next year we are booked on the Queen Mary 2 transatlantic crossing in May. :smile:
  • Options
    Quick question - If there was a tie in a vote of confidence, the speaker should vote with the Government, right?

    I wonder if Bercow actually would...
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,978
    Just to add I'd be delighted to prove wrong. I remember Mark Butcher's knock to win the Headingly test in 2001 (and also recall the legendary Headingly test of 1981) - but can't see it happening tomorrow.
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,978
    edited August 2019

    Quick question - If there was a tie in a vote of confidence, the speaker should vote with the Government, right?

    I wonder if Bercow actually would...

    Didn't that actually happen quite recently?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611

    Nigelb said:

    Root is a fine, possibly great batsman.
    He is, however a mediocre captain at best. Time for a change ?*
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/24/joe-root-england-inner-boycott-ashes-third-test

    * Once the current series is done.

    It's been a doughty performance from Joe Root this afternoon, but I still think England's chances of winning this test stand at very marginally above zero. The second new ball should arrive shortly after 11.30, and they could well be all out by lunchtime.
    About what I’ve said, too.
  • Options
    All this talk of ocean cruises reminds me of the terrible austerity we're told the country is suffering.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,668
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    dixiedean said:

    franklyn said:

    Part two of post
    The alternative was to travel to an identity verification centre. So I checked those out. The nearest was in Lanarkshire, other side of Glasgow, I am in remote Argyll. Nevertheless, I called them. You.needed to make an appointment, not according to your choice but theirs (like NHS OPD in the bad old days) needed to be there in time and the times they offered the service were always during mid day working hours. So I would have to look at booking a full day locum at vast cost for a treck to Glasgow and beyond, hope not to end up in a traffic jam to arrive in time for someone to look at my passport - and all because my local council could not be arsed to set up a ID check centre themselves...

    Then the first reports of the ID check app appeared. Faulty, flawed, weird, failing without reason were the common theme of reviews. I had other things to do, equally exasperating like appraisal or more important, like burying an aunt.

    I finally gave it another go today. It did work. Not seamless and flawless, but it did work. It took some experimenting , the RFID chip is only read when the phone lies exactly above it, though neither the passport tells you where it hides the chip nor does the app tell you it needs that level of proximity, so I had a few goes, but it did work. I am now one of the one million who have tried to register.

    Over to the Home Office. In four working days I am told I will know if I am considered settled or if I should speak with one of the many recruiters from Canada who are currently approaching me on LinkedIn.

    I wrote this tale, because I heard it too often, we EU citizens had supposedly 3 years to get registered.

    Maybe we had them. But if I had tried earlier I would have been either at risk of getting struck off for lying on forms or £500 poorer for having to pay for a locum. I can do without either. I like Scotland, but being made welcome looks slightly different. Maybe this last attempt works. Otherwise it is Canada.

    Yeah. It's that Brussels red tape we are freeing ourselves from.
    If he didn’t want to send his passport away he could pay for the expedited service. To be frank the post seems like a long whinge: the form is too long, I don’t like Croydon, I don’t want to do what everyone else does and post my passport, it took several goes to get the app to work.

    And if I don’t get what I want I’m going to Canada! That’ll teach you!
    Have you any actual experience of interacting with the Home Office in similar circumstances ?
    Charles probably has some family member in the Home Office who can sort such things out for him. :wink:
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,668

    All this talk of ocean cruises reminds me of the terrible austerity we're told the country is suffering.

    Shouldn't you be out counting strawberries?
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,978

    All this talk of ocean cruises reminds me of the terrible austerity we're told the country is suffering.

    Shouldn't you be out counting strawberries?
    Bought a 400g box from Sainsbury's for £1 this afternoon, if that helps ...
  • Options



    The one thing about going on a cruise ship is you do not need a baggage allowance and how your dog reacts will be interesting.

    And my wife and I follow you 3 weeks today on Sapphire Princess on a return trip to Nova Scotia and New York

    Good luck both. On the one trip I was talked into doing with a dog-friendly friend and her two puppies, the dogs seemed reasonably content in their quarters. I quite enjoyed it too though one has to be ready to suspend normal life - no sneaking down to the internet booth to check on PB at £10/minute or whatever it is...
    Thanks Nick. It is my wife's 80th birthday present and we have both wanted to sail into New York since the 1950's

    Of course being retired means no work stress and because of the numbers of cruises we have completed with them we each receive 500 minutes free internet access, making 1,000 minutes to keep upto date on UK politics
    Enjoy your trip Big_G.

    I've had a similar wish to sail into New York, so for my 60th next year we are booked on the Queen Mary 2 transatlantic crossing in May. :smile:
    Good for you Ben. I am sure you will have a great trip
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,855
    Evening all :)

    There's an Opinium poll out tonight for those suffering from pollius absentia:

    CON 32%
    LAB 26%
    TBP 16%
    LD 15%
    Green 4%

    Movements well within margin of error, CON +1, Lab -2, LD +2, Grn -1

  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,668
    Johnson's cunning plan to manage parliament. Democracy in action inaction.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/24/johnson-seeks-legal-advice-parliament-closure
  • Options

    All this talk of ocean cruises reminds me of the terrible austerity we're told the country is suffering.

    Shouldn't you be out counting strawberries?
    Too many to count.

    ASDA seem to flogging 400g boxes for 10p most evenings.
  • Options
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    There's an Opinium poll out tonight for those suffering from pollius absentia:

    CON 32%
    LAB 26%
    TBP 16%
    LD 15%
    Green 4%

    Movements well within margin of error, CON +1, Lab -2, LD +2, Grn -1

    48% Tory+BXP

    26% Antisemitic Fudge

    19% Remain Alliance
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    Scott_P said:
    I'd like to see a "Good PM" question asked.
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Charles said:



    If he didn’t want to send his passport away he could pay for the expedited service. To be frank the post seems like a long whinge: the form is too long, I don’t like Croydon, I don’t want to do what everyone else does and post my passport, it took several goes to get the app to work.

    And if I don’t get what I want I’m going to Canada! That’ll teach you!

    I agree. I sympathised with him a bit over the 85 page form, but not over the impossible journey from Argyll to Glasgow - really? His status to remain in the UK wasn't worth taking a day off? This is the guy that flies abroad so much he can't remember his trips.
    You expect a professional to give up a day to fill in paperwork designed to hound foreigners out of the country?
  • Options
    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,770

    All this talk of ocean cruises reminds me of the terrible austerity we're told the country is suffering.

    Fixed it for you
  • Options
    TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,708
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Little point in Labour moving the writ until the likelihood of a GE becomes clear. Reasonable to wait until after party conferences with no by election before November.

    Any MP can move the writ and given O'Mara has left LAB then I can see the LDs doing it.
    That is true - but Labour could seek to vote it down and might well receive the acquiescence of the Tories - who could well abstain. Frankly I was surprised the Tories moved the writ for Brecon & Radnor when it would have been reasonable to wait until the autumn. There is a convention - of circa 30 years -. that the writ should be moved within three months of a vacancy occurring. Back in the 1966 Parliament , Stephen Swingler MP for Newcastle under Lyme died in February 1969 with the by election not being held until the end of October.
    I disagree, By-elections should in the future be mandated to be held within say 40 days of the death of the sitting member. People need representation and the services MPs are elected to fulfil. Messing around with 'moving the writ' is an archaic and out of date concept. It should be automatic and arbitrary that By-elections are immediate once the criteria for filling a vacancy are met.
    We can all disagree with the convention - and the 1969 example would not now be repeated. Hence, the 3 month rule of more recent years.
    I am pretty sure there was a vacancy in October 2009 that arose for Labour and they didn’t bother at all, just left the constituency without representation for seven months.

    I agree with Taxman. Sheffield Hallam have been without representation for the best part of a year now and there are people here proposing another two months of delay.

    Just get on with it.

  • Options
    just back in blighty - I presume re the thread header, this was in part prompted by the reports the current MP has been arrested?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-49451255
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    dixiedean said:

    franklyn said:

    Part two of post
    The alternative was to travel to an identity verification centre. So I checked those out. The nearest was in Lanarkshire, other side of Glasgow, I am in remote Argyll. Nevertheless, I called them. You.needed to make an appointment, not according to your choice but theirs (like NHS OPD in the bad old days) needed to be there in time and the times they offered the service were always during mid day working hours. So I would have to look at booking a full day locum at vast cost for a treck to Glasgow and beyond, hope not to end up in a traffic jam to arrive in time for someone to look at my passport - and all because my local council could not be arsed to set up a ID check centre themselves...

    Then the first reports of the ID check app appeared. Faulty, flawed, weird, failing without reason were the common theme of reviews. I had other things to do, equally exasperating like appraisal or more important, like burying an aunt.

    I finally gave it another go today. It did work. Not seamless and flawless, but it did work. It took some experimenting , the RFID chip is only read when the phone lies exactly above it, though neither the passport tells you where it hides the chip nor does the app tell you it needs that level of proximity, so I had a few goes, but it did work. I am now one of the one million who have tried to register.

    Over to the Home Office. In four working days I am told I will know if I am considered settled or if I should speak with one of the many recruiters from Canada who are currently approaching me on LinkedIn.

    I wrote this tale, because I heard it too often, we EU citizens had supposedly 3 years to get registered.

    Maybe we had them. But if I had tried earlier I would have been either at risk of getting struck off for lying on forms or £500 poorer for having to pay for a locum. I can do without either. I like Scotland, but being made welcome looks slightly different. Maybe this last attempt works. Otherwise it is Canada.

    Yeah. It's that Brussels red tape we are freeing ourselves from.
    If he didn’t want to send his passport away he could pay for the expedited service. To be frank the post seems like a long whinge: the form is too long, I don’t like Croydon, I don’t want to do what everyone else does and post my passport, it took several goes to get the app to work.

    And if I don’t get what I want I’m going to Canada! That’ll teach you!
    Have you any actual experience of interacting with the Home Office in similar circumstances ?
    Charles probably has some family member in the Home Office who can sort such things out for him. :wink:
    That would be a no, then.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,046

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Little point in Labour moving the writ until the likelihood of a GE becomes clear. Reasonable to wait until after party conferences with no by election before November.

    Any MP can move the writ and given O'Mara has left LAB then I can see the LDs doing it.
    That is true - but Labour could seek to vote it down and might well receive the acquiescence of the Tories - who could well abstain. Frankly I was surprised the Tories moved the writ for Brecon & Radnor when it would have been reasonable to wait until the autumn. There is a convention - of circa 30 years -. that the writ should be moved within three months of a vacancy occurring. Back in the 1966 Parliament , Stephen Swingler MP for Newcastle under Lyme died in February 1969 with the by election not being held until the end of October.
    I disagree, By-elections should in the future be mandated to be held within say 40 days of the death of the sitting member. People need representation and the services MPs are elected to fulfil. Messing around with 'moving the writ' is an archaic and out of date concept. It should be automatic and arbitrary that By-elections are immediate once the criteria for filling a vacancy are met.
    We can all disagree with the convention - and the 1969 example would not now be repeated. Hence, the 3 month rule of more recent years.
    I am pretty sure there was a vacancy in October 2009 that arose for Labour and they didn’t bother at all, just left the constituency without representation for seven months.

    I agree with Taxman. Sheffield Hallam have been without representation for the best part of a year now and there are people here proposing another two months of delay.

    Just get on with it.

    I'm sick and tired of 'conventions.' How hard can it be to put in a law?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611

    Johnson's cunning plan to manage parliament. Democracy in action inaction.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/24/johnson-seeks-legal-advice-parliament-closure

    The official reply is that... he can try.

    But it’s really up to Parliament, if they have the will.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,993
    dixiedean said:

    Surely a GP who has worked for the NHS for years, is, in effect, a quasi government employee?
    Shouldn't 23 years of tax records be proof of settled status?
    Or is that naive?

    I had to fill in the form for my Mother-in-Law, who is a Portuguese citizen.

    It was confusing. It was ridiculously long.

    It was rejected the first time because she'd not applied for a "EU Residence Card".

    It was rejected the second time because her pension is from South Africa, not Portugal. If she'd had the minimum state Portugese pension, whe would have been fine (even though that would certainly not be enough for her to live on in London).

    But her (significantly larger) private sector South African pension did not demonstrate her self sufficiency, and the fact she'd paid five or six years of income tax in the UK didn't cut any ice.

    We've hired an immigration lawyer - at significant expense - and he's confident that she'll be allowed to stay. But it's all a bit of a pain.

    And I can see that the people we're most keen to keep - the young and the upwardly mobile - are the ones who when faced with massive forms, will choose to go somewhere else.

    I find it astonishing that my E2 visa application for the US required significantly less paperwork than the Settled Status application in the UK.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    dixiedean said:

    franklyn said:

    Part two of post
    The alternative was to travel to an identity verification centre. So I checked those out. The nearest was in Lanarkshire, other side of Glasgow, I am in remote Argyll. Nevertheless, I called them. You.needed to make an appointment, not according to your choice but theirs (like NHS OPD in the bad old days) needed to be there in time and the times they offered the service were always during mid day working hours. So I would have to look at booking a full day locum at vast cost for a treck to Glasgow and beyond, hope not to end up in a traffic jam to arrive in

    Then the first reports of the ID check app appeared. Faulty, flawed, weird, failing without reason were the common theme of reviews. I had other things to do, equally exasperating like appraisal or more important, like burying an aunt.

    I finally gave it another go today. It did work. Not seamless and flawless, but it did work. It took some experimenting , the RFID chip is only read when the phone lies exactly above it, though neither the passport tells you where it hides the chip nor does the app tell you it needs that level of proximity, so I had a few goes, but it did work. I am now one of the one million who have tried to register.

    Over to the Home Office. In four working days I am told I will know if I am considered settled or if I should speak with one of the many recruiters from Canada who are currently approaching me on LinkedIn.

    I wrote this tale, because I heard it too often, we EU citizens had supposedly 3 years to get registered.

    Maybe we had them. But if I had tried earlier I would have been either at risk of getting struck off for lying on forms or £500 poorer for having to pay for a locum. I can do without either. I like Scotland, but being made welcome looks slightly different. Maybe this last attempt works. Otherwise it is Canada.

    Yeah. It's that Brussels red tape we are freeing ourselves from.
    If he didn’t want to send his passport away he could pay for the expedited service. To be frank the post seems like a long whinge: the form is too long, I don’t like Croydon, I don’t want to do what everyone else does and post my passport, it took several goes to get the app to work.

    And if I don’t get what I want I’m going to Canada! That’ll teach you!
    Have you any actual experience of interacting with the Home Office in similar circumstances ?
    My wife is American so we went through various stages (work permit, fiancée visa, spousal visa, ILR).

    It was tedious (we could afford a lawyer which helped) and I went to Lunar House in Croydon a few times to queue for hours.

    That’s probably the closest you can get without actually needing settled status
  • Options

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Little point in Labour moving the writ until the likelihood of a GE becomes clear. Reasonable to wait until after party conferences with no by election before November.

    Any MP can move the writ and given O'Mara has left LAB then I can see the LDs doing it.
    That is true - but Labour could seek to vote it down and might well receive the acquiescence of the Tories - who could well abstain. Frankly I was surprised the Tories moved the writ for Brecon & Radnor when it would have been reasonable to wait until the autumn. There is a convention - of circa 30 years -. that the writ should be moved within three months of a vacancy occurring. Back in the 1966 Parliament , Stephen Swingler MP for Newcastle under Lyme died in February 1969 with the by election not being held until the end of October.
    I disagree, By-elections should in the future be mandated to be held within say 40 days of the death of the sitting member. People need representation and the services MPs are elected to fulfil. Messing around with 'moving the writ' is an archaic and out of date concept. It should be automatic and arbitrary that By-elections are immediate once the criteria for filling a vacancy are met.
    We can all disagree with the convention - and the 1969 example would not now be repeated. Hence, the 3 month rule of more recent years.
    I am pretty sure there was a vacancy in October 2009 that arose for Labour and they didn’t bother at all, just left the constituency without representation for seven months.

    I agree with Taxman. Sheffield Hallam have been without representation for the best part of a year now and there are people here proposing another two months of delay.

    Just get on with it.

    The longest gap between a vacancy arising and a by-election writ being moved was 357 days in 1941 (The Wrekin). In peacetime it was 236 days in 1969 (Newcastle-under-Lyme).


    In 1964 Dennis Vosper (Runcorn) was elevated to the peerage on 20/4/64 and no writ was moved before the General Election on 25/9/64. 158 days.
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    CatMan said:

    All this talk of ocean cruises reminds me of the terrible austerity we're told the country is suffering.

    Fixed it for you
    I think you're using a different definition of austerity.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,993

    Nigelb said:

    Root is a fine, possibly great batsman.
    He is, however a mediocre captain at best. Time for a change ?*
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/24/joe-root-england-inner-boycott-ashes-third-test

    * Once the current series is done.

    It's been a doughty performance from Joe Root this afternoon, but I still think England's chances of winning this test stand at very marginally above zero. The second new ball should arrive shortly after 11.30, and they could well be all out by lunchtime.
    Fourth innings totals are usually low. But then again, fourth innings usually happen on the fifth day of a test. We can reasonably surmise that the pitch will have worn less than one would expect, and therefore a higher than normal total is achievable.

    If, and it's a big if, England can accumulate 70-odd runs without losing a wicket tomorrow morning, to bring the required amount down to 150, with seven wickets in hand, then they would be a 50/50 shot. If they manage to lose one wicket in getting the 70, they would be a 35-40% shot. And if they lost two, they would be 20-30%. More than two, and the odds become pretty long indeed.

    Nevertheless, the odds of getting 70 runs without losing a wicket are no worse than 15-1, I'd say. Losing just one is perhaps 6-1. Losing two is 3-1.

    Put those together and England has a shot - perhaps 7-1 or 8-1 - of pulling it off tomorrow.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,431

    Charles said:



    If he didn’t want to send his passport away he could pay for the expedited service. To be frank the post seems like a long whinge: the form is too long, I don’t like Croydon, I don’t want to do what everyone else does and post my passport, it took several goes to get the app to work.

    And if I don’t get what I want I’m going to Canada! That’ll teach you!

    I agree. I sympathised with him a bit over the 85 page form, but not over the impossible journey from Argyll to Glasgow - really? His status to remain in the UK wasn't worth taking a day off? This is the guy that flies abroad so much he can't remember his trips.
    You expect a professional to give up a day to fill in paperwork designed to hound foreigners out of the country?
    Uh, yes.
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    rcs1000 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Surely a GP who has worked for the NHS for years, is, in effect, a quasi government employee?
    Shouldn't 23 years of tax records be proof of settled status?
    Or is that naive?

    I had to fill in the form for my Mother-in-Law, who is a Portuguese citizen.

    It was confusing. It was ridiculously long.

    It was rejected the first time because she'd not applied for a "EU Residence Card".

    It was rejected the second time because her pension is from South Africa, not Portugal. If she'd had the minimum state Portugese pension, whe would have been fine (even though that would certainly not be enough for her to live on in London).

    But her (significantly larger) private sector South African pension did not demonstrate her self sufficiency, and the fact she'd paid five or six years of income tax in the UK didn't cut any ice.

    We've hired an immigration lawyer - at significant expense - and he's confident that she'll be allowed to stay. But it's all a bit of a pain.

    And I can see that the people we're most keen to keep - the young and the upwardly mobile - are the ones who when faced with massive forms, will choose to go somewhere else.

    I find it astonishing that my E2 visa application for the US required significantly less paperwork than the Settled Status application in the UK.
    Are you suggesting that that UK immigration policy is not fit for purpose ?
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    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Root is a fine, possibly great batsman.
    He is, however a mediocre captain at best. Time for a change ?*
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/24/joe-root-england-inner-boycott-ashes-third-test

    * Once the current series is done.

    It's been a doughty performance from Joe Root this afternoon, but I still think England's chances of winning this test stand at very marginally above zero. The second new ball should arrive shortly after 11.30, and they could well be all out by lunchtime.
    Fourth innings totals are usually low. But then again, fourth innings usually happen on the fifth day of a test. We can reasonably surmise that the pitch will have worn less than one would expect, and therefore a higher than normal total is achievable.

    If, and it's a big if, England can accumulate 70-odd runs without losing a wicket tomorrow morning, to bring the required amount down to 150, with seven wickets in hand, then they would be a 50/50 shot. If they manage to lose one wicket in getting the 70, they would be a 35-40% shot. And if they lost two, they would be 20-30%. More than two, and the odds become pretty long indeed.

    Nevertheless, the odds of getting 70 runs without losing a wicket are no worse than 15-1, I'd say. Losing just one is perhaps 6-1. Losing two is 3-1.

    Put those together and England has a shot - perhaps 7-1 or 8-1 - of pulling it off tomorrow.
    Its a nice contrast to how people would casually talk about 300+ targets in 50 overs earlier in the summer.
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    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Little point in Labour moving the writ until the likelihood of a GE becomes clear. Reasonable to wait until after party conferences with no by election before November.

    Any MP can move the writ and given O'Mara has left LAB then I can see the LDs doing it.
    I disagree, By-elections should in the future be mandated to be held within say 40 days of the death of the sitting member. People need representation and the services MPs are elected to fulfil. Messing around with 'moving the writ' is an archaic and out of date concept. It should be automatic and arbitrary that By-elections are immediate once the criteria for filling a vacancy are met.
    We can all disagree with the convention - and the 1969 example would not now be repeated. Hence, the 3 month rule of more recent years.
    I am pretty sure there was a vacancy in October 2009 that arose for Labour and they didn’t bother at all, just left the constituency without representation for seven months.

    I agree with Taxman. Sheffield Hallam have been without representation for the best part of a year now and there are people here proposing another two months of delay.

    Just get on with it.

    The longest gap between a vacancy arising and a by-election writ being moved was 357 days in 1941 (The Wrekin). In peacetime it was 236 days in 1969 (Newcastle-under-Lyme).


    In 1964 Dennis Vosper (Runcorn) was elevated to the peerage on 20/4/64 and no writ was moved before the General Election on 25/9/64. 158 days.
    It is a pity the Coalition Government did not change the way By-elections are timed as well as initiating the 'recall process' into law. In this day and age it should be taken out of party machine hands and instigated promptly. I think the Major Government for instance found that waiting for better times to increase the chance of holding a seat can be counter-productive! If a Government is so bad, that, it loses enough seats to be no longer viable then surely it is a good thing, that, it has the plug pulled! The same could be said for political parties that no longer effectively work such as the Labour party now. The wraith of the electorate tends to focus minds....
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    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    The Tories have hit the ceiling! :lol:
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,968

    CatMan said:

    All this talk of ocean cruises reminds me of the terrible austerity we're told the country is suffering.

    Fixed it for you
    I think you're using a different definition of austerity.
    That reasonably well off people can afford cruises is neither proof nor refutation of austerity.
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    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,770

    CatMan said:

    All this talk of ocean cruises reminds me of the terrible austerity we're told the country is suffering.

    Fixed it for you
    I think you're using a different definition of austerity.
    Not if you've actually felt the effects of it, which plenty of people have. But you obviously haven't, so that's alright then, or something.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "A top chef who has lived in the UK for 31 years and has three British children says he has been denied the right to stay permanently after Brexit.

    Richard Bertinet, who owns a cooking school and bakery in Bath and has written several award-winning cookbooks, described the government's settlement scheme to allow EU citizens to stay in the UK "shambolic"."

    https://news.sky.com/story/top-chef-richard-bertinet-denied-permanent-uk-stay-despite-living-here-for-31-years-11792808
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    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Root is a fine, possibly great batsman.
    He is, however a mediocre captain at best. Time for a change ?*
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/24/joe-root-england-inner-boycott-ashes-third-test

    * Once the current series is done.

    It's been a doughty performance from Joe Root this afternoon, but I still think England's chances of winning this test stand at very marginally above zero. The second new ball should arrive shortly after 11.30, and they could well be all out by lunchtime.
    Fourth innings totals are usually low. But then again, fourth innings usually happen on the fifth day of a test. We can reasonably surmise that the pitch will have worn less than one would expect, and therefore a higher than normal total is achievable.

    If, and it's a big if, England can accumulate 70-odd runs without losing a wicket tomorrow morning, to bring the required amount down to 150, with seven wickets in hand, then they would be a 50/50 shot. If they manage to lose one wicket in getting the 70, they would be a 35-40% shot. And if they lost two, they would be 20-30%. More than two, and the odds become pretty long indeed.

    Nevertheless, the odds of getting 70 runs without losing a wicket are no worse than 15-1, I'd say. Losing just one is perhaps 6-1. Losing two is 3-1.

    Put those together and England has a shot - perhaps 7-1 or 8-1 - of pulling it off tomorrow.
    Realistically this pitch should be more of a traditional third innings than fourth innings pitch.

    359 is a high challenge in a fourth innings. However how often could we see a score of 359 in a third innings without being too surprised at it?

    From 156-3 in a third innings how often could the batting team go on to score 359+

    There are pressures that are different of course with batting last, but realistically tomorrow is day 4 and we are not going to bat through 2 days while scoring less than 203 runs [even with Stokes scoring 2 runs off 50 balls]. Either we get bowled our or we win, but the target is not insurmountable.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,968
    rcs1000 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Surely a GP who has worked for the NHS for years, is, in effect, a quasi government employee?
    Shouldn't 23 years of tax records be proof of settled status?
    Or is that naive?

    I had to fill in the form for my Mother-in-Law, who is a Portuguese citizen.

    It was confusing. It was ridiculously long.

    It was rejected the first time because she'd not applied for a "EU Residence Card".

    It was rejected the second time because her pension is from South Africa, not Portugal. If she'd had the minimum state Portugese pension, whe would have been fine (even though that would certainly not be enough for her to live on in London).

    But her (significantly larger) private sector South African pension did not demonstrate her self sufficiency, and the fact she'd paid five or six years of income tax in the UK didn't cut any ice.

    We've hired an immigration lawyer - at significant expense - and he's confident that she'll be allowed to stay. But it's all a bit of a pain.

    And I can see that the people we're most keen to keep - the young and the upwardly mobile - are the ones who when faced with massive forms, will choose to go somewhere else.

    I find it astonishing that my E2 visa application for the US required significantly less paperwork than the Settled Status application in the UK.
    I certainly don't recall an alien residency card, effectively a work permit rubber stamped for renewal each year provided you weren't arrested and produced a tax return, for Taiwan being anything like so onerous.
    Although, I accept it is slightly different.
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    CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    All this talk of ocean cruises reminds me of the terrible austerity we're told the country is suffering.

    Fixed it for you
    I think you're using a different definition of austerity.
    Not if you've actually felt the effects of it, which plenty of people have. But you obviously haven't, so that's alright then, or something.
    Yes if you've felt the effects of real austerity, like in Greece, you wouldn't throw the word about so lightly suggesting we'd had it in the UK.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,993

    rcs1000 said:

    dixiedean said:

    Surely a GP who has worked for the NHS for years, is, in effect, a quasi government employee?
    Shouldn't 23 years of tax records be proof of settled status?
    Or is that naive?

    I had to fill in the form for my Mother-in-Law, who is a Portuguese citizen.

    It was confusing. It was ridiculously long.

    It was rejected the first time because she'd not applied for a "EU Residence Card".

    It was rejected the second time because her pension is from South Africa, not Portugal. If she'd had the minimum state Portugese pension, whe would have been fine (even though that would certainly not be enough for her to live on in London).

    But her (significantly larger) private sector South African pension did not demonstrate her self sufficiency, and the fact she'd paid five or six years of income tax in the UK didn't cut any ice.

    We've hired an immigration lawyer - at significant expense - and he's confident that she'll be allowed to stay. But it's all a bit of a pain.

    And I can see that the people we're most keen to keep - the young and the upwardly mobile - are the ones who when faced with massive forms, will choose to go somewhere else.

    I find it astonishing that my E2 visa application for the US required significantly less paperwork than the Settled Status application in the UK.
    Are you suggesting that that UK immigration policy is not fit for purpose ?
    The system should work like this.

    Does EU citizen have?

    1. no criminal record
    2. a full time job earning above some hurdle (that they've had for a certain period of time)
    3. a job with the NHS or other accredited body
    4. a British spouse or British children
    5. an advanced degree

    If (1) and at least one of the other four is true, then the process shouldn't involve much more than going on line and filling out a five minute form that involves giving appropriate details. They can then get sent a card that is carried with their passport.

    For people without jobs, etc., then the process should be more complicated. But for most people in work, it should be extremely simple. Otherwise you end up with a situation where the people you most want to stay leave, while those who have most time on their hands (i.e. the unemployed) are the ones who do the paperwork.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,781
    edited August 2019

    The Tories have hit the ceiling! :lol:
    Change since Jul 27: Con 33 (+2), Lab 21 (n/c), LDem19 (-1), BXP 14 (+1). So slight increase in CON, no real change in others.

    See h ttps://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1165366743575027717
    See h ttps://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1155213186548797440
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