The Remainers seem surprised and dismayed that the ruthless, ambitious, scheming and duplicitous Boris Johnson, has turned out to be a ruthless, ambitious, scheming and duplicitous prime minister.
Maybe they're three steps ahead of us. Most treacherous electorate in the world, no?
They couldn't block Boris in the last leadership election because it only took 1/3 of their colleagues to get him through to the final round, and if he got that far then they knew the members would pick him.
So nod him through, wait for him to show himself as ruthless, ambitious, scheming and duplicitous, profess to be surprised, send in some letters, sack him in a secret ballot, and now he's banned from running again...
Sadly not. One of the great revelations of late stage Brexit is how the stupid the supposedly “smarter” Remainers have turned out to be. They profess to be the educated Ubermenschen, the suave and worldly experts, the guys with the doctorates and names like Jolyon - yet they have been outwitted at every turn by the likes of Nigel Farage.
Even now they stare across the Commons, unable to use their majority, due to some innate infirmity of purpose, allied to a gross over-estimation of their own abilities.
Truly, the ancien regime. As I said.
One of the challenges that Remain has always had to deal with is that the world does not operate in black and white. Understandably, many people think that it should and wish that it did, so are minded to give time and votes to those who say that it does. Unfortunately, though, it never, ever works.
This does not remotely explain why Remainers, most especially elite Remainers - who never cease to tell us how clever they are, and how they are MUCH cleverer than the awful, chavvy, smelly, racist old Leavers - have turned out to be so utterly shit at politics.
First, they lost an unloseable referendum, now they are losing the Brexit endgame, outsmarted by Boris and Cummings, two people they loudly dismiss as clowns.
The only answer is that Remainers are not remotely as smart as they like to think. They only appear smarter because life has favoured them, and they have prospered. Hence their Remain tendencies. They like the status quo ante.
The key to most of it is that the leader of the Labour Party supports Brexit. Dealing with that made both the referendum and its aftermath almost impossible to handle. He does genuinely seem to oppose No Deal, though, which may make things a little easier this week. My only surprise with the referendum is that it was as close as it was.
I have still to read an explanation from remainers as to why they would not welcome the opportunity to take the UK back in to the centre of the EU project with all that involves.
Leaving and then successfully campaigning to rejoin at a future GE should be relatively simple given their confidence about how much of a disaster Brexit will be.
It seems they would rather orbit on the periphery holding back the ongoing integration most of the bloc support.
Or, they are terrified their lies will be exposed when the UK does just fine which will kill off any hopes of rejoining for generations.
Forget Brexit this is the most important news this week.
ICC switches umpires in late change for fourth Ashes Test
Kumar Dharmasena will help control the fourth Ashes Test from the middle, rather than the third-umpire room, in a late change to arrangements for the high-stakes match.
Marais Erasmus and Ruchira Palliyaguruge, who isn't on the International Cricket Council's elite panel, had been originally slated to umpire the Old Trafford contest that begins on Wednesday.
But Palliyaguruge is listed to remain as third umpire for the rest of the five-Test series, which is locked at 1-1.
It means Erasmus and Dharmasena, two of the most-experienced umpires on the circuit, will be standing in the middle for the rest of the series.
Swinson should make the following announcement today.
"In these turbulent and dangerous political times we need to be flexible and work together with responsible MPs across the commons. We therefore announce that if any Conservative or Labour MPs wish to leave their parties to come out unambiguously against no deal Brexit, we will not stand against them at the next election. This also applies to the Change Uk and independents who vote against no deal.
Further if the Green party, agree to do likewise for the above MPs, we will stand aside for the Greens in 10 of their target constituencies.
Whilst we have differences with all the above parties, there is more we have in common with all of them and the threat of extremism from Labour and Conservative leaderships must be countered with imagination, courage and strength.
This is a unilateral offer, but after an election we would be delighted if those MPs could support us, whether in government or opposition, but would not expect them to take the party whip unless they so desired."
Totally off topic: but does anyone know whether No. 10 's door was once painted green.
Neither of my two books on the history of No. 10 mentions it but the following site does: https://www.ironmongerydirect.co.uk/research/10-downing-street/ 1908: Herbert Asquith becomes Prime Minister and has the front door repainted dark green for a brief time.
This old documentary on Number 10 may be of interest. I've not rewatched it this morning so cannot swear it mentions green paint. It includes a good deal of old footage and comment from former residents. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFA6dksRquA
This does not remotely explain why Remainers, most especially elite Remainers - who never cease to tell us how clever they are, and how they are MUCH cleverer than the awful, chavvy, smelly, racist old Leavers - have turned out to be so utterly shit at politics.
First, they lost an unloseable referendum, now they are losing the Brexit endgame, outsmarted by Boris and Cummings, two people they loudly dismiss as clowns.
The only answer is that Remainers are not remotely as smart as they like to think. They only appear smarter because life has favoured them, and they have prospered. Hence their Remain tendencies. They like the status quo ante.
Meanwhile, in further proof of the remarkable intelligence of prominent Leavers:
I have still to read an explanation from remainers as to why they would not welcome the opportunity to take the UK back in to the centre of the EU project with all that involves.
Leaving and then successfully campaigning to rejoin at a future GE should be relatively simple given their confidence about how much of a disaster Brexit will be.
It seems they would rather orbit on the periphery holding back the ongoing integration most of the bloc support.
Or, they are terrified their lies will be exposed when the UK does just fine which will kill off any hopes of rejoining for generations.
No I would far rather have the opt outs that mean we pay less than 50% of what we would need to pay the EU were we to actually leave and rejoin.
Equally to rejoin means Schengen and the Euro both of which we have opt outs for.
An ex Tory member saying the current Tory PM should be charged with crimes against humanity... I do hope we're reaching peak hysteria.
What events and how long will it take for such fevered emotions to die down I wonder. Not many people give poor old Iraq much of a thought these days but people were similarly upset once upon a time.
All lies! What would the growers/importers/packers/manufacturers/wholesalers/retailers know about it? Anyone would think these traitors knew anything about how to negotiate. The should Simply Back Boris and we will be fine.
To be fair, water finds its level. Freighters will continue to ship as long as their additional costs are passed on. Combined with the further fall in the pound, we will see the prices in the shops rocket upwards. Brexit is pointless and extremely costly but we will still get tomatoes at twice the price.
Full marks to the Remainers for being the shouty and arrogant side.
Continually declaring you have a much larger brain that the other lot is a sure way to win support. Carry on as you are, please. Much appreciated by we Leavers.
Well we have to contribute and it is the best we can do after 3 years of being called traitors, Quislings, wreckers and Deal-blockers.
I have still to read an explanation from remainers as to why they would not welcome the opportunity to take the UK back in to the centre of the EU project with all that involves.
Leaving and then successfully campaigning to rejoin at a future GE should be relatively simple given their confidence about how much of a disaster Brexit will be.
It seems they would rather orbit on the periphery holding back the ongoing integration most of the bloc support.
Or, they are terrified their lies will be exposed when the UK does just fine which will kill off any hopes of rejoining for generations.
There will I'm sure be a campaign to rejoin when we leave. We shall see what form it takes.
"orbit[ing] on the periphery" however suited many very well. Me, for example. Enshrined in Dave's deal was just the sort of relationship that would have suited Britain. But the dolts didn't understand and now those dolts have been boosted as several of their number are actually running the country.
As for lies and the UK doing just fine. I'm sure it will but by leaving and especially by leaving in the way we seem about to, there will be a value destruction which will I believe significantly impact our well-being.
What I don't get about leavers is how craven and scared they are about trying to hold our own within the EU. I had no doubt that the UK could get good deals and mostly what it wanted from EU membership. Leavers, on the other hand, seemed to be so frightened and sure that they would get turned over by the EU and hence want to blot it out/leave. It is the leavers who don't have confidence in their country, not the remainers.
The Remainers seem surprised and dismayed that the ruthless, ambitious, scheming and duplicitous Boris Johnson, has turned out to be a ruthless, ambitious, scheming and duplicitous prime minister.
Maybe they're three steps ahead of us. Most treacherous electorate in the world, no?
They couldn't block Boris in the last leadership election because it only took 1/3 of their colleagues to get him through to the final round, and if he got that far then they knew the members would pick him.
So nod him through, wait for him to show himself as ruthless, ambitious, scheming and duplicitous, profess to be surprised, send in some letters, sack him in a secret ballot, and now he's banned from running again...
Sadly abilities.
Truly, the ancien regime. As I said.
"Late stage Brexit"? We haven't even left yet! Once we are five years into negotiating the UK-EU FTA we might just about be in mid stage Brexit. And you call Remainers stupid? How many bottles of raki in are you?
we will rise and get on with the day.
I think your writing style is better suited to airport porn than to serious analysis. Read the Ivan Rogers piece. He is short on ejaculation metaphors but long on facts, analysis and knowing his arse from a hole in the ground. You could learn a lot from him.
I shall ignore your tragic little episode of ad hominem, and address the main point.
Yes. I’ve read the Rogers piece. It’s good. He’s one of the cleverer Remainers. TMay was indeed an idiot for booting him.
I agree with a lot of what he says - economically. Clearly No Deal will be significantly nasty. As I’ve said before, my prediction is that No Deal would be less unpleasant than expected on day 1, but in the medium term it would do a lot of harm - the analogy of a slow puncture is apt. In the long term we’d be fine. But we’d have experienced a lot of avoidable grief.
What Rogers doesn’t get, I think - and he’s not alone - is how (as I said down thread) Brexit has morphed into a revolution. A cultural revolution. Britain is the first major country to try and reverse the ratchet of globalisation, to stop the relentless march to post-democratic elitocracy and depose the Dynasty of Davos.
It may be mad or misguided but it is important, and historically fascinating.
I have still to read an explanation from remainers as to why they would not welcome the opportunity to take the UK back in to the centre of the EU project with all that involves.
Leaving and then successfully campaigning to rejoin at a future GE should be relatively simple given their confidence about how much of a disaster Brexit will be.
It seems they would rather orbit on the periphery holding back the ongoing integration most of the bloc support.
Or, they are terrified their lies will be exposed when the UK does just fine which will kill off any hopes of rejoining for generations.
No I would far rather have the opt outs that mean we pay less than 50% of what we would need to pay the EU were we to actually leave and rejoin.
Equally to rejoin means Schengen and the Euro both of which we have opt outs for.
Rejoin will not automatically mean joining the Euro. Joining Schengen will probably depend on what Ireland wants.
All lies! What would the growers/importers/packers/manufacturers/wholesalers/retailers know about it? Anyone would think these traitors knew anything about how to negotiate. The should Simply Back Boris and we will be fine.
To be fair, water finds its level. Freighters will continue to ship as long as their additional costs are passed on. Combined with the further fall in the pound, we will see the prices in the shops rocket upwards. Brexit is pointless and extremely costly but we will still get tomatoes at twice the price.
More expansion for Lidl
LIdl and Aldi are forrin and will be the first pushed through the exit gate when the revolution comes
An ex Tory member saying the current Tory PM should be charged with crimes against humanity... I do hope we're reaching peak hysteria.
What events and how long will it take for such fevered emotions to die down I wonder. Not many people give poor old Iraq much of a thought these days but people were similarly upset once upon a time.
Do you accept there might be negative consequences for the average briton in the short and medium term?
Iraq hardly affected us at all, outside of military families. It is not a comparison you can make.
Forget Brexit this is the most important news this week.
ICC switches umpires in late change for fourth Ashes Test
Kumar Dharmasena will help control the fourth Ashes Test from the middle, rather than the third-umpire room, in a late change to arrangements for the high-stakes match.
Marais Erasmus and Ruchira Palliyaguruge, who isn't on the International Cricket Council's elite panel, had been originally slated to umpire the Old Trafford contest that begins on Wednesday.
But Palliyaguruge is listed to remain as third umpire for the rest of the five-Test series, which is locked at 1-1.
It means Erasmus and Dharmasena, two of the most-experienced umpires on the circuit, will be standing in the middle for the rest of the series.
They got a fair bit of flak for the Stokes non LBW but I still think something odd happened with the track of the ball which DRS didn't pick up. What looked like a marginal LBW at best and the umpire perfectly reasonably gave not out appeared to deviate slightly as it passed Stokes front pad on the way to hitting his back pad and therafter was shown to be smashing into middle and leg stump on the replay. I guess the hoo ha in the media down under partly led to this decision.
This is a magnificent puncturing of the delusional mindset taking hold in the UK over Brexit. Sir Ivan Rogers knows more about these issues, literally, than all Brexiteers put together. I've been lucky enough to meet him and he is just as impressive in person. The fact that May's government forced him out was an early signal of the dismal national humiliation that awaits us.
I actually agree with almost all of that article and have said repeatedly on here that the bigger problem with a no deal Brexit is the consequences for our medium to long term relationship with the EU. Whilst the hysteria about the immediate implications is laughably overdone this is a long term threat to our economy which should be taken seriously.
But how do we get back to a deal from here? Its not easy to see the path. Yet more extensions with yet more uncertainty and adverse economic consequences is not the answer. Boris needs to get a deal on the 17th of October that the Commons can accept. It is not looking likely. The other option is that we leave without a deal and then quickly enter one from outside. That seems to me to have much more risk and uncertainty attached to it but the political path is easier.
All lies! What would the growers/importers/packers/manufacturers/wholesalers/retailers know about it? Anyone would think these traitors knew anything about how to negotiate. The should Simply Back Boris and we will be fine.
To be fair, water finds its level. Freighters will continue to ship as long as their additional costs are passed on. Combined with the further fall in the pound, we will see the prices in the shops rocket upwards. Brexit is pointless and extremely costly but we will still get tomatoes at twice the price.
More expansion for Lidl
LIdl and Aldi are forrin and will be the first pushed through the exit gate when the revolution comes
When the looting starts Lidl and Aldi will be targeted first. The News might make a connection to their foreign ownership, but the real reason is that it is known that the produce there is better than at Tesco.
Full marks to the Remainers for being the shouty and arrogant side.
Continually declaring you have a much larger brain that the other lot is a sure way to win support. Carry on as you are, please. Much appreciated by we Leavers.
I think that the key differences between leavers and remainers (preparing to be flamed....) are not larger or smaller brains but:
Leavers - see the world more black and white, more emotional, more tribal, more nostalgic, more socially focused
Remainers - see the world as complex, more analytical, more financially focused
Those differences, combined with education being a factor in the leave vote do make many remainers think they are more clever than leavers on average.
Understanding the differences and trying to communicate effectively to leavers based on those differences would be the clever response rather than putting them down.
On the flip side it is also partly why leave politicians have failed so miserably in coming up with complicated plans or responding to them beyond getting upset they cannot have everything they want.
I have still to read an explanation from remainers as to why they would not welcome the opportunity to take the UK back in to the centre of the EU project with all that involves.
Leaving and then successfully campaigning to rejoin at a future GE should be relatively simple given their confidence about how much of a disaster Brexit will be.
It seems they would rather orbit on the periphery holding back the ongoing integration most of the bloc support.
Or, they are terrified their lies will be exposed when the UK does just fine which will kill off any hopes of rejoining for generations.
Because we are generally not irresponsible enough to want to damage the country to further our political objectives.
I have still to read an explanation from remainers as to why they would not welcome the opportunity to take the UK back in to the centre of the EU project with all that involves.
Leaving and then successfully campaigning to rejoin at a future GE should be relatively simple given their confidence about how much of a disaster Brexit will be.
I am confident that in 15 years time the UK will be in the EU, unless something cataclysmic like WWIII breaks out.
I still think the UK will be worse off by leaving the EU, and the UK is being foolish for doing so. I am not claiming that life in Brexitland will be terrible. I am claiming that life in Brexitland will be worse than being in the EU. After five years of "just doing OK", there will be enough of a will for the UK to want to rejoin.
Boris Johnson, assuming he carries on as PM, will have to agree the Withdrawal Agreement including backstop. Set in stone basically. Question is how much he is willing to wreck the country before doing so. Quite a lot, it seems
Boris Johnson, assuming he carries on as PM, will have to agree the Withdrawal Agreement including backstop. Set in stone basically. Question is how much he is willing to wreck the country before doing so. Quite a lot, it seems
I have still to read an explanation from remainers as to why they would not welcome the opportunity to take the UK back in to the centre of the EU project with all that involves.
Leaving and then successfully campaigning to rejoin at a future GE should be relatively simple given their confidence about how much of a disaster Brexit will be.
It seems they would rather orbit on the periphery holding back the ongoing integration most of the bloc support.
Or, they are terrified their lies will be exposed when the UK does just fine which will kill off any hopes of rejoining for generations.
There will I'm sure be a campaign to rejoin when we leave. We shall see what form it takes.
"orbit[ing] on the periphery" however suited many very well. Me, for example. Enshrined in Dave's deal was just the sort of relationship that would have suited Britain. But the dolts didn't understand and now those dolts have been boosted as several of their number are actually running the country.
As for lies and the UK doing just fine. I'm sure it will but by leaving and especially by leaving in the way we seem about to, there will be a value destruction which will I believe significantly impact our well-being.
What I don't get about leavers is how craven and scared they are about trying to hold our own within the EU. I had no doubt that the UK could get good deals and mostly what it wanted from EU membership. Leavers, on the other hand, seemed to be so frightened and sure that they would get turned over by the EU and hence want to blot it out/leave. It is the leavers who don't have confidence in their country, not the remainers.
Lets look at actual examples of these good deals we got from memebership rather than hypertheticals.
Over to you, shall we start with Mr Blairs attempt to get a better deal for us?
Listening to Jacob Rees Mogg and his callous disregard for medical experts, if No Dealers are going to let people die because of their ideology then once Brexit is overturned then the likes of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Dom Cummings, and JRM should be charged with crimes against humanity.
I suspect there is enough evidence in today's debate for JRM to be charged if it's required.
The show trials are going to be spectacular
I have my knitting and my splatterproof smock ready.
The Remainers seem surprised and dismayed that the ruthless, ambitious, scheming and duplicitous Boris Johnson, has turned out to be a ruthless, ambitious, scheming and duplicitous prime minister.
Maybe they're three steps ahead of us. Most treacherous electorate in the world, no?
They couldn't block Boris in the last leadership election because it only took 1/3 of their colleagues to get him through to the final round, and if he got that far then they knew the members would pick him.
So nod him through, wait for him to show himself as ruthless, ambitious, scheming and duplicitous, profess to be surprised, send in some letters, sack him in a secret ballot, and now he's banned from running again...
Sadly abilities.
Truly, the ancien regime. As I said.
"Late stage Brexit"? We haven't even left yet! Once we are five years into negotiating the UK-EU FTA we might just about be in mid stage Brexit. And you call Remainers stupid? How many bottles of raki in are you?
we will rise and get on with the day.
I think your writing style is better suited to airport porn than to serious analysis. Read the Ivan Rogers piece. He is short on ejaculation metaphors but long on facts, analysis and knowing his arse from a hole in the ground. You could learn a lot from him.
What Rogers doesn’t get, I think - and he’s not alone - is how (as I said down thread) Brexit has morphed into a revolution. A cultural revolution. Britain is the first major country to try and reverse the ratchet of globalisation, to stop the relentless march to post-democratic elitocracy and depose the Dynasty of Davos.
It may be mad or misguided but it is important, and historically fascinating.
What an absolute load of cobblers.
Brexit is no cultural revolution, or revolution of any other type. Yes, it might originally have garnered support from those disaffected with metropolitan elitism - you know the kind of trashy writers who live in Camden - but it lost that edge long ago.
Brexit is a movement of the English elite establishment: private school educated posh boys like Farage, Johnson and WR-M all of them secure in their off-shore assets.
The real revolution is within Remain: the LibDems who are now (contrary to your previous post) pulling together delightfully with the Left, even Momentum. They're tapping into the real discontent, encompassed by climate change activists and anti-globalists.
Boris Johnson, assuming he carries on as PM, will have to agree the Withdrawal Agreement including backstop. Set in stone basically. Question is how much he is willing to wreck the country before doing so. Quite a lot, it seems
The alternative view is that he needs to build an overwhelming consensus in the Commons that May's deal (with or without added fig leaves) is as good as it gets and should be approved quam primum, something May never managed. It is too early to judge if he is achieving this but there are straws in the wind.
I have still to read an explanation from remainers as to why they would not welcome the opportunity to take the UK back in to the centre of the EU project with all that involves.
Leaving and then successfully campaigning to rejoin at a future GE should be relatively simple given their confidence about how much of a disaster Brexit will be.
It seems they would rather orbit on the periphery holding back the ongoing integration most of the bloc support.
Or, they are terrified their lies will be exposed when the UK does just fine which will kill off any hopes of rejoining for generations.
No I would far rather have the opt outs that mean we pay less than 50% of what we would need to pay the EU were we to actually leave and rejoin.
Equally to rejoin means Schengen and the Euro both of which we have opt outs for.
How on earth do you reach that conclusion about payments?
The Remainers seem surprised and dismayed that the ruthless, ambitious, scheming and duplicitous Boris Johnson, has turned out to be a ruthless, ambitious, scheming and duplicitous prime minister.
Maybe they're three steps ahead of us. Most treacherous electorate in the world, no?
They couldn't block Boris in the last leadership election because it only took 1/3 of their colleagues to get him through to the final round, and if he got that far then they knew the members would pick him.
So nod him through, wait for him to show himself as ruthless, ambitious, scheming and duplicitous, profess to be surprised, send in some letters, sack him in a secret ballot, and now he's banned from running again...
Sadly abilities.
Truly, the ancien regime. As I said.
"Late stage Brexit"? We haven't even left yet! Once we are five years into negotiating the UK-EU FTA we might just about be in mid stage Brexit. And you call Remainers stupid? How many bottles of raki in are you?
we will rise and get on with the day.
I think your writing style is better suited to airport porn than to serious analysis. Read the Ivan Rogers piece. He is short on ejaculation metaphors but long on facts, analysis and knowing his arse from a hole in the ground. You could learn a lot from him.
What Rogers doesn’t get, I think - and he’s not alone - is how (as I said down thread) Brexit has morphed into a revolution. A cultural revolution. Britain is the first major country to try and reverse the ratchet of globalisation, to stop the relentless march to post-democratic elitocracy and depose the Dynasty of Davos.
It may be mad or misguided but it is important, and historically fascinating.
What an absolute load of cobblers.
Brexit is no cultural revolution, or revolution of any other type. Yes, it might originally have garnered support from those disaffected with metropolitan elitism - you know the kind of trashy writers who live in Camden - but it lost that edge long ago.
Brexit is a movement of the English elite establishment: private school educated posh boys like Farage, Johnson and WR-M all of them secure in their off-shore assets.
The real revolution is within Remain: the LibDems who are now (contrary to your previous post) pulling together delightfully with the Left, even Momentum. They're tapping into the real discontent, encompassed by climate change activists and anti-globalists.
Full marks to the Remainers for being the shouty and arrogant side.
Continually declaring you have a much larger brain that the other lot is a sure way to win support. Carry on as you are, please. Much appreciated by we Leavers.
I think that the key differences between leavers and remainers (preparing to be flamed....) are not larger or smaller brains but:
Leavers - see the world more black and white, more emotional, more tribal, more nostalgic, more socially focused
Remainers - see the world as complex, more analytical, more financially focused
Those differences, combined with education being a factor in the leave vote do make many remainers think they are more clever than leavers on average.
Understanding the differences and trying to communicate effectively to leavers based on those differences would be the clever response rather than putting them down.
On the flip side it is also partly why leave politicians have failed so miserably in coming up with complicated plans or responding to them beyond getting upset they cannot have everything they want.
Leavers are alpha males, Remainers are beta males - this explains the gender divide too.
I wonder what Mr O'Hara would have written about Howe's 1981 budget? Surely there was a party throwing itself off the cliff in the mad pursuit of monetarism, against the advice of the famous 364 economists, with an MP crossing the floor and others walking out, dooming itself to never winning an election again or at best squeaking through one election on the back of divided opposition before its inevitable and final annihilation?
What happened instead was the underlying inflation that had so dogged our economic performance for more than a decade was finally brought under control and unemployment fell sharply rather than the increase forecast. The ground was set for strong future economic growth and a new consensus was created that remained in place until the latter days of Brown's hubris.
So let it be with Brexit. If we leave (and it is still not certain) there will be a new consensus and all to play for.
With respect, by the time Thatcher left office at the end of 1990 inflation - far from having been 'finally brought under control' - had returned to the level she inherited in May 1979. She inherited RPI inflation of 10.2% from Callaghan and 11.5 years later passed on 9.7% to Major.
Boris Johnson, assuming he carries on as PM, will have to agree the Withdrawal Agreement including backstop. Set in stone basically. Question is how much he is willing to wreck the country before doing so. Quite a lot, it seems
The alternative view is that he needs to build an overwhelming consensus in the Commons that May's deal (with or without added fig leaves) is as good as it gets and should be approved quam primum, something May never managed. It is too early to judge if he is achieving this but there are straws in the wind.
I really don't see the slightest evidence of this. No-one who wanted to build a consensus for a May type deal would deselect their own MPs who had voted multiple times for such a deal, on the grounds that they might vote against No Deal.
Full marks to the Remainers for being the shouty and arrogant side.
Continually declaring you have a much larger brain that the other lot is a sure way to win support. Carry on as you are, please. Much appreciated by we Leavers.
I think that the key differences between leavers and remainers (preparing to be flamed....) are not larger or smaller brains but:
Leavers - see the world more black and white, more emotional, more tribal, more nostalgic, more socially focused
Remainers - see the world as complex, more analytical, more financially focused
Those differences, combined with education being a factor in the leave vote do make many remainers think they are more clever than leavers on average.
Understanding the differences and trying to communicate effectively to leavers based on those differences would be the clever response rather than putting them down.
On the flip side it is also partly why leave politicians have failed so miserably in coming up with complicated plans or responding to them beyond getting upset they cannot have everything they want.
Leavers are alpha males, Remainers are beta males - this explains the gender divide too.
Full marks to the Remainers for being the shouty and arrogant side.
Continually declaring you have a much larger brain that the other lot is a sure way to win support. Carry on as you are, please. Much appreciated by we Leavers.
I think that the key differences between leavers and remainers (preparing to be flamed....) are not larger or smaller brains but:
Leavers - see the world more black and white, more emotional, more tribal, more nostalgic, more socially focused
Remainers - see the world as complex, more analytical, more financially focused
Those differences, combined with education being a factor in the leave vote do make many remainers think they are more clever than leavers on average.
Understanding the differences and trying to communicate effectively to leavers based on those differences would be the clever response rather than putting them down.
On the flip side it is also partly why leave politicians have failed so miserably in coming up with complicated plans or responding to them beyond getting upset they cannot have everything they want.
Leavers are alpha males, Remainers are beta males - this explains the gender divide too.
Leavers are incels, which is one of the reasons they worship Boris so much. He actually seems to be someone who - you know - has put his penis inside a woman.
I wonder what Mr O'Hara would have written about Howe's 1981 budget? Surely there was a party throwing itself off the cliff in the mad pursuit of monetarism, against the advice of the famous 364 economists, with an MP crossing the floor and others walking out, dooming itself to never winning an election again or at best squeaking through one election on the back of divided opposition before its inevitable and final annihilation?
What happened instead was the underlying inflation that had so dogged our economic performance for more than a decade was finally brought under control and unemployment fell sharply rather than the increase forecast. The ground was set for strong future economic growth and a new consensus was created that remained in place until the latter days of Brown's hubris.
So let it be with Brexit. If we leave (and it is still not certain) there will be a new consensus and all to play for.
With respect, by the time Thatcher left office at the end of 1990 inflation - far from having been 'finally brought under control' - had returned to the level she inherited in May 1979. She inherited RPI inflation of 10.2% from Callaghan and 11.5 years later passed on 9.7% to Major.
I'd suggest Major as chancellor passed on 9.7% inflation to Major as PM. Mainly because he was obsessed with the ERM.
I have still to read an explanation from remainers as to why they would not welcome the opportunity to take the UK back in to the centre of the EU project with all that involves.
Leaving and then successfully campaigning to rejoin at a future GE should be relatively simple given their confidence about how much of a disaster Brexit will be.
It seems they would rather orbit on the periphery holding back the ongoing integration most of the bloc support.
Or, they are terrified their lies will be exposed when the UK does just fine which will kill off any hopes of rejoining for generations.
There will I'm sure be a campaign to rejoin when we leave. We shall see what form it takes.
"orbit[ing] on the periphery" however suited many very well. Me, for example. Enshrined in Dave's deal was just the sort of relationship that would have suited Britain. But the dolts didn't understand and now those dolts have been boosted as several of their number are actually running the country.
As for lies and the UK doing just fine. I'm sure it will but by leaving and especially by leaving in the way we seem about to, there will be a value destruction which will I believe significantly impact our well-being.
What I don't get about leavers is how craven and scared they are about trying to hold our own within the EU. I had no doubt that the UK could get good deals and mostly what it wanted from EU membership. Leavers, on the other hand, seemed to be so frightened and sure that they would get turned over by the EU and hence want to blot it out/leave. It is the leavers who don't have confidence in their country, not the remainers.
Lets look at actual examples of these good deals we got from memebership rather than hypertheticals.
Over to you, shall we start with Mr Blairs attempt to get a better deal for us?
Let's start and end with the near-frictionless trade in goods and services with our closest and largest trading bloc.
All lies! What would the growers/importers/packers/manufacturers/wholesalers/retailers know about it? Anyone would think these traitors knew anything about how to negotiate. The should Simply Back Boris and we will be fine.
To be fair, water finds its level. Freighters will continue to ship as long as their additional costs are passed on. Combined with the further fall in the pound, we will see the prices in the shops rocket upwards. Brexit is pointless and extremely costly but we will still get tomatoes at twice the price.
More expansion for Lidl
LIdl and Aldi are forrin and will be the first pushed through the exit gate when the revolution comes
When the looting starts Lidl and Aldi will be targeted first. The News might make a connection to their foreign ownership, but the real reason is that it is known that the produce there is better than at Tesco.
He will be more liberal by declaring himself liberal (only when speaking to liberal audiences of course) and declaring any dissent to that opinion as fake news.
An ex Tory member saying the current Tory PM should be charged with crimes against humanity... I do hope we're reaching peak hysteria.
What events and how long will it take for such fevered emotions to die down I wonder. Not many people give poor old Iraq much of a thought these days but people were similarly upset once upon a time.
If you're saying there is no accountability for anything in the UK, where the posh fail upwards and everybody else scrabbles for crumbs, then yes.
Not sure that Tory government is the answer though.
Jail for all MPs who voted for the Iraq war, and the handover of Blair and others to the Hague would be a start.
Like you, I am a clever and sophisticated Remainer, and I always knew Boris Johnson was a wretched chancer and a liar. I therefore share your OUTRAGE that in office he turns out to be a wretched chancer - and, not only that, he’s a liar as well!!??
Of course it is. The headbanger wing of the Leavers sees a US trade deal as a way of locking us out of the EU. It is not that they actually like the taste of chlorine in their chicken, or have the brains to realise how much sovereignty they'd be handing over to the United States, but that it would make it too damn difficult to negotiate through the mass of incompatible rules in the lifetime of a single parliament.
I can't see the No 10 strategy working, but then I am nearly always wrong!
The chances of a pre October 31st election providing a majority of MPs for No Deal if there is no renegotiation looks slim at best.
The chances of Parliament allowing No Deal on 31st October look to be around zero. If Parliament outlaws No Deal, the chances of a new negotiated deal or slim to zero.
These add up to not leaving on 31st October.
Post election there is likely to be an unstable minority / coalition arrangement. Although we should note that has been the case since 2010, with the exception of Cameron 2015 - 17.
Any referendum is likely to take too long. I agree with Boris that we need a fixed date and asap to eradicate so much of the uncertainty in the economy.
Is it time to push revoke as a serious option? It is always at the back of the queue, a misty and far of figure.
It has lots of advantages, such as not changing anything! I believe it to be a bad option, as it leaves us in our rather odd half in half out position, which will therefore continue to give us numerous opportunities to have differences with the EU, it does nothing to eradicate the causes and foundations of Euroscepticism, which would therefore continue and possibly grow in numbers or intensity.
My view is that we do need to reset our relationship with EU. I would rather achieve that and be in fully (Euro, Shengen etc). If that isn't an option then a No Deal scenario is probably best in the long term.
Revoke - and really address the needs of the 'left behind'. Any party that does that would do well. The difficulty is in getting from here to there.
Boris Johnson, assuming he carries on as PM, will have to agree the Withdrawal Agreement including backstop. Set in stone basically. Question is how much he is willing to wreck the country before doing so. Quite a lot, it seems
One can imagine him on the phone to Brussels on November 2nd going, "give me precisely the WA and backstop, just for heaven's sake don't call it that". Of course, the route to achieving that will not be under A50 any more and will be more difficult from the EU side, but if Boris is very pliable and preparing for a No Deal outcome of WA plus a pound or five of fresh flesh, I think that could be doable with the appropriate operational.practice plus mini deals.
Perhaps Boris has already indicated to selected EU chiefs that he is willing to bend over a very long way as early as November 2nd just as long as the construction process, if not the end result, looks radically different from the WA.
Swinson should make the following announcement today.
"In these turbulent and dangerous political times we need to be flexible and work together with responsible MPs across the commons. We therefore announce that if any Conservative or Labour MPs wish to leave their parties to come out unambiguously against no deal Brexit, we will not stand against them at the next election. This also applies to the Change Uk and independents who vote against no deal.
Further if the Green party, agree to do likewise for the above MPs, we will stand aside for the Greens in 10 of their target constituencies.
Whilst we have differences with all the above parties, there is more we have in common with all of them and the threat of extremism from Labour and Conservative leaderships must be countered with imagination, courage and strength.
This is a unilateral offer, but after an election we would be delighted if those MPs could support us, whether in government or opposition, but would not expect them to take the party whip unless they so desired."
That would be a good idea, but unfortunately the LibDems believe in a lot of stupid shit like localism and party democracy, so I doubt it's really in the power of the leadership to impose this on the organizations on the ground.
I have still to read an explanation from remainers as to why they would not welcome the opportunity to take the UK back in to the centre of the EU project with all that involves.
Leaving and then successfully campaigning to rejoin at a future GE should be relatively simple given their confidence about how much of a disaster Brexit will be.
It seems they would rather orbit on the periphery holding back the ongoing integration most of the bloc support.
Or, they are terrified their lies will be exposed when the UK does just fine which will kill off any hopes of rejoining for generations.
No I would far rather have the opt outs that mean we pay less than 50% of what we would need to pay the EU were we to actually leave and rejoin.
Equally to rejoin means Schengen and the Euro both of which we have opt outs for.
Rejoin will not automatically mean joining the Euro. Joining Schengen will probably depend on what Ireland wants.
Rejoin will mean automatically accepting thst we will eventually join the Euro. A catastrophically stipid thing to do.
Of course it is. The headbanger wing of the Leavers sees a US trade deal as a way of locking us out of the EU. It is not that they actually like the taste of chlorine in their chicken, or have the brains to realise how much sovereignty they'd be handing over to the United States, but that it would make it too damn difficult to negotiate through the mass of incompatible rules in the lifetime of a single parliament.
Absoutely. It matters not what any deal is.
The point is to somehow lock the UK into a US-led block so that rejoining the EU becomes impossible.
An ex Tory member saying the current Tory PM should be charged with crimes against humanity... I do hope we're reaching peak hysteria.
What events and how long will it take for such fevered emotions to die down I wonder. Not many people give poor old Iraq much of a thought these days but people were similarly upset once upon a time.
If you're saying there is no accountability for anything in the UK, where the posh fail upwards and everybody else scrabbles for crumbs, then yes.
Not sure that Tory government is the answer though.
Jail for all MPs who voted for the Iraq war, and the handover of Blair and others to the Hague would be a start.
'Jail for all MPs who voted for the Iraq war,'. IIRC IDS was very gung-ho about it, as were other Tories. In fact if the Tories had opposed, Blair's move might have been defeated. (That's without looking at the figures)
I have still to read an explanation from remainers as to why they would not welcome the opportunity to take the UK back in to the centre of the EU project with all that involves.
Leaving and then successfully campaigning to rejoin at a future GE should be relatively simple given their confidence about how much of a disaster Brexit will be.
It seems they would rather orbit on the periphery holding back the ongoing integration most of the bloc support.
Or, they are terrified their lies will be exposed when the UK does just fine which will kill off any hopes of rejoining for generations.
No I would far rather have the opt outs that mean we pay less than 50% of what we would need to pay the EU were we to actually leave and rejoin.
Equally to rejoin means Schengen and the Euro both of which we have opt outs for.
Rejoin will not automatically mean joining the Euro. Joining Schengen will probably depend on what Ireland wants.
Rejoin will mean automatically accepting thst we will eventually join the Euro. A catastrophically stipid thing to do.
What, more stupid than dedicating your life to a quixotic political objective which somehow succeeds by leveraging the racist vote and ends up burning down the country?
Swinson should make the following announcement today.
"In these turbulent and dangerous political times we need to be flexible and work together with responsible MPs across the commons. We therefore announce that if any Conservative or Labour MPs wish to leave their parties to come out unambiguously against no deal Brexit, we will not stand against them at the next election. This also applies to the Change Uk and independents who vote against no deal.
Further if the Green party, agree to do likewise for the above MPs, we will stand aside for the Greens in 10 of their target constituencies.
Whilst we have differences with all the above parties, there is more we have in common with all of them and the threat of extremism from Labour and Conservative leaderships must be countered with imagination, courage and strength.
This is a unilateral offer, but after an election we would be delighted if those MPs could support us, whether in government or opposition, but would not expect them to take the party whip unless they so desired."
That would be a good idea, but unfortunately the LibDems believe in a lot of stupid shit like localism and party democracy, so I doubt it's really in the power of the leadership to impose this on the organizations on the ground.
Now is the time for leaders to lead and people will follow. There is a void that needs filling, it is worth her gambling her party career for, if it doesnt work it doesnt really matter but could change UK politics for a generation.
Rejoin will not automatically mean joining the Euro. Joining Schengen will probably depend on what Ireland wants.
Rejoin will mean automatically accepting thst we will eventually join the Euro. A catastrophically stipid thing to do.
I'm sure that isn't true. Exactly zero EU governments want the British to join the Euro, the Eurozone have got enough problems as it is without throwing in a load of post-imperial psychodrama.
The only possible issue would be whether Britain's non-membership was going to be made official with an explicit opt-out, or whether they'd be expected to use the Swedish cheat codes, namely you're officially obliged to join, but only after being a member of the ERM, and you're not obliged to join the ERM. The latter would be exactly the same in practice as the former, but would make it much harder for Rejoin to win a referendum.
Boris Johnson, assuming he carries on as PM, will have to agree the Withdrawal Agreement including backstop. Set in stone basically. Question is how much he is willing to wreck the country before doing so. Quite a lot, it seems
One can imagine him on the phone to Brussels on November 2nd going, "give me precisely the WA and backstop, just for heaven's sake don't call it that". Of course, the route to achieving that will not be under A50 any more and will be more difficult from the EU side, but if Boris is very pliable and preparing for a No Deal outcome of WA plus a pound or five of fresh flesh, I think that could be doable with the appropriate operational.practice plus mini deals.
Perhaps Boris has already indicated to selected EU chiefs that he is willing to bend over a very long way as early as November 2nd just as long as the construction process, if not the end result, looks radically different from the WA.
Honest technical question.
What you have proposed looks quite sensible and plausible to me. However - and setting aside the difficulties of Bojo’s red lines - it runs up against the legalism of the EU. After Brexit any deal will have to be approved by 28 parliaments plus a small dog in Antwerp, etc
But there is maybe a solution. Could we quite simply and briskly re-enter EEA/EFTA? What legal obstacles stand in the way of this?
If it’s doable it’s a possible way through. We Brexit, thus honouring the referendum. We then swiftly re-enter the SM. Avoiding a lot of the pain.
I think much of the country could live with this, tho no one would love it.
Full marks to the Remainers for being the shouty and arrogant side.
Continually declaring you have a much larger brain that the other lot is a sure way to win support. Carry on as you are, please. Much appreciated by we Leavers.
I think that the key differences between leavers and remainers (preparing to be flamed....) are not larger or smaller brains but:
Leavers - see the world more black and white, more emotional, more tribal, more nostalgic, more socially focused
Remainers - see the world as complex, more analytical, more financially focused
Those differences, combined with education being a factor in the leave vote do make many remainers think they are more clever than leavers on average.
Understanding the differences and trying to communicate effectively to leavers based on those differences would be the clever response rather than putting them down.
On the flip side it is also partly why leave politicians have failed so miserably in coming up with complicated plans or responding to them beyond getting upset they cannot have everything they want.
Leavers are alpha males, Remainers are beta males - this explains the gender divide too.
Leavers are incels, which is one of the reasons they worship Boris so much. He actually seems to be someone who - you know - has put his penis inside a woman.
Remainers have more sex. Fact.
I always find it easy to identify a Leaver walking in the street: bold, confident steps, an erect spine, proud demeanour and a neatly clipped moustache.
By contrast the average Remainer is stooped and shuffles, frequently trips over their own feet and has unruly eyebrows that meet in the middle.
In 1947 the BMA thought the NHS would be a catastophe...
In 2016 Leave said it would be the easiest deal in history...
But who knew Theresa May would become PM and Remainers would refuse to consent to losing the referendum and try to put up every obstacle to stop us leaving?
In 1947 the BMA thought the NHS would be a catastophe...
In 2016 Leave said it would be the easiest deal in history...
But who knew Theresa May would become PM and Remainers would refuse to consent to losing the referendum and try to put up every obstacle to stop us leaving?
I have still to read an explanation from remainers as to why they would not welcome the opportunity to take the UK back in to the centre of the EU project with all that involves.
Leaving and then successfully campaigning to rejoin at a future GE should be relatively simple given their confidence about how much of a disaster Brexit will be.
It seems they would rather orbit on the periphery holding back the ongoing integration most of the bloc support.
Or, they are terrified their lies will be exposed when the UK does just fine which will kill off any hopes of rejoining for generations.
No I would far rather have the opt outs that mean we pay less than 50% of what we would need to pay the EU were we to actually leave and rejoin.
Equally to rejoin means Schengen and the Euro both of which we have opt outs for.
Rejoin will not automatically mean joining the Euro. Joining Schengen will probably depend on what Ireland wants.
Rejoin will mean automatically accepting thst we will eventually join the Euro. A catastrophically stipid thing to do.
Staying out of the Euro was the biggest strategic mistake this country made since staying out of the EEC. If we'd make the right choice then, we wouldn't be in this mess now.
An ex Tory member saying the current Tory PM should be charged with crimes against humanity... I do hope we're reaching peak hysteria.
What events and how long will it take for such fevered emotions to die down I wonder. Not many people give poor old Iraq much of a thought these days but people were similarly upset once upon a time.
Do you accept there might be negative consequences for the average briton in the short and medium term?
Iraq hardly affected us at all, outside of military families. It is not a comparison you can make.
Like you, I am a clever and sophisticated Remainer, and I always knew Boris Johnson was a wretched chancer and a liar. I therefore share your OUTRAGE that in office he turns out to be a wretched chancer - and, not only that, he’s a liar as well!!??
Why didn’t I listen to me??
My you've upped your fortnightly posting average this morning. Just how idyllic is your current location?
Re the Tories' "manifesto promise" to leave the EU with a deal which all the remainers on here keep referring to, have any of you read it?
On page 36 it says "we continue to believe that no deal is better than a bad deal for the UK".
That's a very strange way to promise that we will leave with a deal, no?
Read the rest of the manifesto. At least three times it says that the Government's policy is to have an orderly withdrawal. That means a WA. Not an overnight departure and a disorderly exit.
Re the Tories' "manifesto promise" to leave the EU with a deal which all the remainers on here keep referring to, have any of you read it?
On page 36 it says "we continue to believe that no deal is better than a bad deal for the UK".
That's a very strange way to promise that we will leave with a deal, no?
The more I read that, the more I construe “no deal” as Remain.
Did you think that was what May meant when she said it in January 2017?
"For all that optimism, May wasn't afraid to wield a little threat today. A "punitive" Brexit deal would be "an act of calamitous self-harm" for Europe, she said, adding that "no deal for Britain is better than a bad deal". Failing to secure agreement with the 27 EU member states would see the UK default to World Trade Organisation trading rules, and May repeated the message that she would be willing to cut tax rates, and "change the basis of Britain's economic model"."
Full marks to the Remainers for being the shouty and arrogant side.
Continually declaring you have a much larger brain that the other lot is a sure way to win support. Carry on as you are, please. Much appreciated by we Leavers.
I think that the key differences between leavers and remainers (preparing to be flamed....) are not larger or smaller brains but:
Leavers - see the world more black and white, more emotional, more tribal, more nostalgic, more socially focused
Remainers - see the world as complex, more analytical, more financially focused
Those differences, combined with education being a factor in the leave vote do make many remainers think they are more clever than leavers on average.
Understanding the differences and trying to communicate effectively to leavers based on those differences would be the clever response rather than putting them down.
On the flip side it is also partly why leave politicians have failed so miserably in coming up with complicated plans or responding to them beyond getting upset they cannot have everything they want.
Leavers are alpha males, Remainers are beta males - this explains the gender divide too.
Leavers are incels, which is one of the reasons they worship Boris so much. He actually seems to be someone who - you know - has put his penis inside a woman.
Remainers have more sex. Fact.
I always find it easy to identify a Leaver walking in the street: bold, confident steps, an erect spine, proud demeanour and a neatly clipped moustache.
By contrast the average Remainer is stooped and shuffles, frequently trips over their own feet and has unruly eyebrows that meet in the middle.
I look for tattoos of bulldogs etc that tends to give the game away
I’ve been in Greece a few weeks now. Reading history as I go.
What I now realise - and which I didn’t before - is that Brexit is far far beyond a reset of our trading arrangements, it is a genuine revolution. Hopefully, it will be a very British revolution - largely bloodless - but it is a revolution, nonetheless. The ancien regime - the Europhile elite, the rich metropolitan Remainers - will be sidelined. Or even swept away. Hence their cries of pain, as they subconsciously sense this.
All revolutions are painful. This will be no different. But if Brexit works - in the long term - it will threaten the order everywhere. This is why elites in other countries hate it, too.
It's more a question of one elite replacing another, tbh.
I have still to read an explanation from remainers as to why they would not welcome the opportunity to take the UK back in to the centre of the EU project with all that involves.
Leaving and then successfully campaigning to rejoin at a future GE should be relatively simple given their confidence about how much of a disaster Brexit will be.
It seems they would rather orbit on the periphery holding back the ongoing integration most of the bloc support.
Or, they are terrified their lies will be exposed when the UK does just fine which will kill off any hopes of rejoining for generations.
No I would far rather have the opt outs that mean we pay less than 50% of what we would need to pay the EU were we to actually leave and rejoin.
Equally to rejoin means Schengen and the Euro both of which we have opt outs for.
Rejoin will not automatically mean joining the Euro. Joining Schengen will probably depend on what Ireland wants.
Rejoin will mean automatically accepting thst we will eventually join the Euro. A catastrophically stipid thing to do.
First off if I was the EU hierarchy I would blanche at the thought of UK coming back. But as opposed to the WA which I don't think will be changed I nevertheless believe that a further bespoke deal could be arranged if the UK wanted to rejoin but as we have seen, within one or two or three electoral cycles there could be another "out" legislature and hence again I think the EU would be super wary of any agreement or negotiation.
The bridges have been burnt and we are out. I just hope we make the best of it which of course kicks off with some kind of deal to set us on the road to leaving.
Read the rest of the manifesto. At least three times it says that the Government's policy is to have an orderly withdrawal. That means a WA. Not an overnight departure and a disorderly exit.
Thy have missed the difference between a statement and a manifesto commitment.
"We believe beans on Toast is the best form of lunch"
"We will introduce a bill outlawing spaghetti hoops"
Re the Tories' "manifesto promise" to leave the EU with a deal which all the remainers on here keep referring to, have any of you read it?
On page 36 it says "we continue to believe that no deal is better than a bad deal for the UK".
That's a very strange way to promise that we will leave with a deal, no?
Read the rest of the manifesto. At least three times it says that the Government's policy is to have an orderly withdrawal. That means a WA. Not an overnight departure and a disorderly exit.
I've read it. It clearly doesn't rule out no deal. Parliament decided that May's deal was a bad deal, so they're getting the "better" no deal instead.
Boris Johnson, assuming he carries on as PM, will have to agree the Withdrawal Agreement including backstop. Set in stone basically. Question is how much he is willing to wreck the country before doing so. Quite a lot, it seems
One can imagine him on the phone to Brussels on November 2nd going, "give me precisely the WA and backstop, just for heaven's sake don't call it that". Of course, the route to achieving that will not be under A50 any more and will be more difficult from the EU side, but if Boris is very pliable and preparing for a No Deal outcome of WA plus a pound or five of fresh flesh, I think that could be doable with the appropriate operational.practice plus mini deals.
Perhaps Boris has already indicated to selected EU chiefs that he is willing to bend over a very long way as early as November 2nd just as long as the construction process, if not the end result, looks radically different from the WA.
Honest technical question.
What you have proposed looks quite sensible and plausible to me. However - and setting aside the difficulties of Bojo’s red lines - it runs up against the legalism of the EU. After Brexit any deal will have to be approved by 28 parliaments plus a small dog in Antwerp, etc
But there is maybe a solution. Could we quite simply and briskly re-enter EEA/EFTA? What legal obstacles stand in the way of this?
If it’s doable it’s a possible way through. We Brexit, thus honouring the referendum. We then swiftly re-enter the SM. Avoiding a lot of the pain.
I think much of the country could live with this, tho no one would love it.
Most remainers on here said they would be happy with that outcome EFTA/EEA as to it’s practicalities I don’t know but I think Johnson would be toast
Full marks to the Remainers for being the shouty and arrogant side.
Continually declaring you have a much larger brain that the other lot is a sure way to win support. Carry on as you are, please. Much appreciated by we Leavers.
I think that the key differences between leavers and remainers (preparing to be flamed....) are not larger or smaller brains but:
Leavers - see the world more black and white, more emotional, more tribal, more nostalgic, more socially focused
Remainers - see the world as complex, more analytical, more financially focused
Those differences, combined with education being a factor in the leave vote do make many remainers think they are more clever than leavers on average.
Understanding the differences and trying to communicate effectively to leavers based on those differences would be the clever response rather than putting them down.
On the flip side it is also partly why leave politicians have failed so miserably in coming up with complicated plans or responding to them beyond getting upset they cannot have everything they want.
Leavers are alpha males, Remainers are beta males - this explains the gender divide too.
Leavers are incels, which is one of the reasons they worship Boris so much. He actually seems to be someone who - you know - has put his penis inside a woman.
Remainers have more sex. Fact.
I always find it easy to identify a Leaver walking in the street: bold, confident steps, an erect spine, proud demeanour and a neatly clipped moustache.
By contrast the average Remainer is stooped and shuffles, frequently trips over their own feet and has unruly eyebrows that meet in the middle.
I look for tattoos of bulldogs etc that tends to give the game away
Remainers have tattoos of their European Health Insurance Card number tattooed under their watch strap.
'Jail for all MPs who voted for the Iraq war,'. IIRC IDS was very gung-ho about it, as were other Tories. In fact if the Tories had opposed, Blair's move might have been defeated. (That's without looking at the figures)
An ex Tory member saying the current Tory PM should be charged with crimes against humanity... I do hope we're reaching peak hysteria.
What events and how long will it take for such fevered emotions to die down I wonder. Not many people give poor old Iraq much of a thought these days but people were similarly upset once upon a time.
Do you accept there might be negative consequences for the average briton in the short and medium term?
Iraq hardly affected us at all, outside of military families. It is not a comparison you can make.
Don't start the "that's not a comparison/oh yes it is/oh no it isn't" argument again! :-)
Comments
Leaving and then successfully campaigning to rejoin at a future GE should be relatively simple given their confidence about how much of a disaster Brexit will be.
It seems they would rather orbit on the periphery holding back the ongoing integration most of the bloc support.
Or, they are terrified their lies will be exposed when the UK does just fine which will kill off any hopes of rejoining for generations.
ICC switches umpires in late change for fourth Ashes Test
Kumar Dharmasena will help control the fourth Ashes Test from the middle, rather than the third-umpire room, in a late change to arrangements for the high-stakes match.
Marais Erasmus and Ruchira Palliyaguruge, who isn't on the International Cricket Council's elite panel, had been originally slated to umpire the Old Trafford contest that begins on Wednesday.
But Palliyaguruge is listed to remain as third umpire for the rest of the five-Test series, which is locked at 1-1.
It means Erasmus and Dharmasena, two of the most-experienced umpires on the circuit, will be standing in the middle for the rest of the series.
https://au.sports.yahoo.com/ashes-icc-changes-umpires-fourth-test-114929618.html
"In these turbulent and dangerous political times we need to be flexible and work together with responsible MPs across the commons. We therefore announce that if any Conservative or Labour MPs wish to leave their parties to come out unambiguously against no deal Brexit, we will not stand against them at the next election. This also applies to the Change Uk and independents who vote against no deal.
Further if the Green party, agree to do likewise for the above MPs, we will stand aside for the Greens in 10 of their target constituencies.
Whilst we have differences with all the above parties, there is more we have in common with all of them and the threat of extremism from Labour and Conservative leaderships must be countered with imagination, courage and strength.
This is a unilateral offer, but after an election we would be delighted if those MPs could support us, whether in government or opposition, but would not expect them to take the party whip unless they so desired."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFA6dksRquA
https://twitter.com/theousherwood/status/1168434092611911681
Equally to rejoin means Schengen and the Euro both of which we have opt outs for.
What events and how long will it take for such fevered emotions to die down I wonder. Not many people give poor old Iraq much of a thought these days but people were similarly upset once upon a time.
[Not the Nine O'clock News]
"orbit[ing] on the periphery" however suited many very well. Me, for example. Enshrined in Dave's deal was just the sort of relationship that would have suited Britain. But the dolts didn't understand and now those dolts have been boosted as several of their number are actually running the country.
As for lies and the UK doing just fine. I'm sure it will but by leaving and especially by leaving in the way we seem about to, there will be a value destruction which will I believe significantly impact our well-being.
What I don't get about leavers is how craven and scared they are about trying to hold our own within the EU. I had no doubt that the UK could get good deals and mostly what it wanted from EU membership. Leavers, on the other hand, seemed to be so frightened and sure that they would get turned over by the EU and hence want to blot it out/leave. It is the leavers who don't have confidence in their country, not the remainers.
Yes. I’ve read the Rogers piece. It’s good. He’s one of the cleverer Remainers. TMay was indeed an idiot for booting him.
I agree with a lot of what he says - economically. Clearly No Deal will be significantly nasty. As I’ve said before, my prediction is that No Deal would be less unpleasant than expected on day 1, but in the medium term it would do a lot of harm - the analogy of a slow puncture is apt. In the long term we’d be fine. But we’d have experienced a lot of avoidable grief.
What Rogers doesn’t get, I think - and he’s not alone - is how (as I said down thread) Brexit has morphed into a revolution. A cultural revolution. Britain is the first major country to try and reverse the ratchet of globalisation, to stop the relentless march to post-democratic elitocracy and depose the Dynasty of Davos.
It may be mad or misguided but it is important, and historically fascinating.
And now, the pool. Kalimera.
Iraq hardly affected us at all, outside of military families. It is not a comparison you can make.
But how do we get back to a deal from here? Its not easy to see the path. Yet more extensions with yet more uncertainty and adverse economic consequences is not the answer. Boris needs to get a deal on the 17th of October that the Commons can accept. It is not looking likely. The other option is that we leave without a deal and then quickly enter one from outside. That seems to me to have much more risk and uncertainty attached to it but the political path is easier.
I never call any Remainer names. I've been married to one for 44 years.
Leavers - see the world more black and white, more emotional, more tribal, more nostalgic, more socially focused
Remainers - see the world as complex, more analytical, more financially focused
Those differences, combined with education being a factor in the leave vote do make many remainers think they are more clever than leavers on average.
Understanding the differences and trying to communicate effectively to leavers based on those differences would be the clever response rather than putting them down.
On the flip side it is also partly why leave politicians have failed so miserably in coming up with complicated plans or responding to them beyond getting upset they cannot have everything they want.
I still think the UK will be worse off by leaving the EU, and the UK is being foolish for doing so. I am not claiming that life in Brexitland will be terrible. I am claiming that life in Brexitland will be worse than being in the EU. After five years of "just doing OK", there will be enough of a will for the UK to want to rejoin.
"We just Leave"
For them, there are no problems that can't be solved just by doing something, anything.
It will be instructive when that World view collides with reality
The EU, Remainers, Collaborators. Anyone.
Over to you, shall we start with Mr Blairs attempt to get a better deal for us?
Brexit is no cultural revolution, or revolution of any other type. Yes, it might originally have garnered support from those disaffected with metropolitan elitism - you know the kind of trashy writers who live in Camden - but it lost that edge long ago.
Brexit is a movement of the English elite establishment: private school educated posh boys like Farage, Johnson and WR-M all of them secure in their off-shore assets.
The real revolution is within Remain: the LibDems who are now (contrary to your previous post) pulling together delightfully with the Left, even Momentum. They're tapping into the real discontent, encompassed by climate change activists and anti-globalists.
Unlike his daughter-in-law Cratesipolis (a nickname which means 'sacker of cities/the city') who led armies in Greece when her husband was slain.
https://twitter.com/JenWilliamsMEN/status/1168468156396048386
Remainers have more sex. Fact.
(and it is Mrs C BTW)
Not sure that Tory government is the answer though.
Jail for all MPs who voted for the Iraq war, and the handover of Blair and others to the Hague would be a start.
Why didn’t I listen to me??
Any party that does that would do well.
The difficulty is in getting from here to there.
Perhaps Boris has already indicated to selected EU chiefs that he is willing to bend over a very long way as early as November 2nd just as long as the construction process, if not the end result, looks radically different from the WA.
The Cabinet really are the “vegetables” of Spitting Image legend.
It matters not what any deal is.
The point is to somehow lock the UK into a US-led block so that rejoining the EU becomes impossible.
IIRC IDS was very gung-ho about it, as were other Tories. In fact if the Tories had opposed, Blair's move might have been defeated. (That's without looking at the figures)
On page 36 it says "we continue to believe that no deal is better than a bad deal for the UK".
That's a very strange way to promise that we will leave with a deal, no?
Even more stupid than that?
The only possible issue would be whether Britain's non-membership was going to be made official with an explicit opt-out, or whether they'd be expected to use the Swedish cheat codes, namely you're officially obliged to join, but only after being a member of the ERM, and you're not obliged to join the ERM. The latter would be exactly the same in practice as the former, but would make it much harder for Rejoin to win a referendum.
What you have proposed looks quite sensible and plausible to me. However - and setting aside the difficulties of Bojo’s red lines - it runs up against the legalism of the EU. After Brexit any deal will have to be approved by 28 parliaments plus a small dog in Antwerp, etc
But there is maybe a solution. Could we quite simply and briskly re-enter EEA/EFTA? What legal obstacles stand in the way of this?
If it’s doable it’s a possible way through. We Brexit, thus honouring the referendum. We then swiftly re-enter the SM. Avoiding a lot of the pain.
I think much of the country could live with this, tho no one would love it.
By contrast the average Remainer is stooped and shuffles, frequently trips over their own feet and has unruly eyebrows that meet in the middle.
A "punitive" Brexit deal would be "an act of calamitous self-harm" for Europe, she said, adding that "no deal for Britain is better than a bad deal".
Failing to secure agreement with the 27 EU member states would see the UK default to World Trade Organisation trading rules, and May repeated the message that she would be willing to cut tax rates, and "change the basis of Britain's economic model"."
https://www.cityam.com/no-deal-better-than-bad-deal-six-things-we-learned-theresa/
The bridges have been burnt and we are out. I just hope we make the best of it which of course kicks off with some kind of deal to set us on the road to leaving.
"We believe beans on Toast is the best form of lunch"
"We will introduce a bill outlawing spaghetti hoops"
In the unlikely event the EU agrees then don’t accept.
Remainers are wasting their time.