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  • Scott_P said:

    Looks like the SCons are going into the election leaderless, and SLab might as well be, for all the good Leonard does.

    Does this matter?

    Yes.

    Sturgeon and Rennie have an open field.

    The Last election was "Nicola or Ruth"

    This one will be "Nicola or BoZo"
    Slam dunk.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Scott_P said:
    Quotes to come back to haunt them if their gamble does not pay off.
  • Scott_P said:
    Legislation amending the FTPA. Only requires a simple majority and no parliament can bind its successors. When you think about it, the 2/3rds requirement only really has moral effect.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Scott_P said:
    I suggest these strategists have a look at the audience queuing outside the Rocky Horror Show in northern towns. Working class people have just as wide a selection of views as middle class ones.
    In this social media world anything local and personalized like that would become fully public in no time and completely destroy you.

    Cummings isn’t bright enough to understand that nor how marketing polls really work. I’ve attended 2 of his recently good like if you treat those focus groups accurately most of us were taking the Mickey
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    This is going to be a factor on the campaign trail

    https://twitter.com/stavvers/status/1168603522725818368

    BoZo is used to being surrounded by adoring fans.
  • Id say Johnson/Cummings' plan is pretty much working to a tee...
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:

    Looks like the SCons are going into the election leaderless, and SLab might as well be, for all the good Leonard does.

    Does this matter?

    Yes.

    Sturgeon and Rennie have an open field.

    The Last election was "Nicola or Ruth"

    This one will be "Nicola or BoZo"
    Barnet vs Beard
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,849
    blueblue said:

    If he really wanted to insult Corbyn, he'd call him the Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition.

    The cult would really hate that!

    Sure.

    But, you know, standards.

    "Britain Trump" was not a direct instruction from the White House.
  • kinabalu said:

    What's with Boris Johnson referring to the leader of HM Opposition as "Corbyn" during a PM statement outside number 10?

    It's "Mr Corbyn" or it's "Jeremy Corbyn" or it's "The Leader of the Opposition".

    Does he think he's in Weatherspoons or at a golf club dinner or something?

    It's utterly disrespectful to the Labour party and its voters. This kind of myopia to their own arrogance is a real Achilles heel for the current, OE, iteration of the Tory party.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Scott_P said:
    Legislation amending the FTPA. Only requires a simple majority and no parliament can bind its successors. When you think about it, the 2/3rds requirement only really has moral effect.
    Would the Opposition - and the Lords - co-operate with that?
  • eek said:

    Scott_P said:
    I suggest these strategists have a look at the audience queuing outside the Rocky Horror Show in northern towns. Working class people have just as wide a selection of views as middle class ones.
    In this social media world anything local and personalized like that would become fully public in no time and completely destroy you.

    Cummings isn’t bright enough to understand that nor how marketing polls really work. I’ve attended 2 of his recently good like if you treat those focus groups accurately most of us were taking the Mickey
    Hmmm.....

    Forgive my scepticism I suspect he has a rather better record than you of winning votes.
  • This is fascism. The rule by division, fear and "othering" through nationalism. All that is missing is arresting HM Opposition.
  • Scott_P said:

    This is going to be a factor on the campaign trail

    https://twitter.com/stavvers/status/1168603522725818368

    BoZo is used to being surrounded by adoring fans.

    Hilarious,

    She in no way felt like this before. No siree....
  • Scott_P said:
    I think that’s already been dealt with. The government can bring forward legislation to specifically require a GE on a certain date.
    What's with the 14th? Would we really have a GE on a Monday?
    Days before the last EU council meeting before 31st October

    It does make sense and I just cannot see how labour reject it but retain any credibility

    For me it has to come and to be honest I am willing to accept the verdict of the people in a GE and whatever will be will be
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    edited September 2019

    Scott_P said:
    I suggest these strategists have a look at the audience queuing outside the Rocky Horror Show in northern towns. Working class people have just as wide a selection of views as middle class ones.
    I think most people, what ever their background, have an inate sense of right and wrong when it comes to individual rights and beliefs. The idea that a campaign vilifying a vulnerable minority would gain traction amongst people just because they are 'Northern' or working class is offensive and wrong.
    That's an interesting comment given the leave campaign's concentration on Turkey (and by extension Turks) before the referendum.

    Or are they the 'wrong' minority?
    And that is yet another stupid fucking comment from you given I attacked that campaign at the time. Crawl back under your rock.
    A leave campaign vilified a minority (and one of which I am personally acquainted) - worse, people on here still defend that vilification. Some even say it helped the 'victory' for leave. That, according to your post, was offensive and wrong. Fair enough. But that offensiveness played a part in *your* victory.

    So, calm down and take a deep breath.

    (fx: waits)

    Now, can I have a well-considered response?
  • kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Quotes to come back to haunt them if their gamble does not pay off.
    It doesnt need to.

    Dont you realise?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,056
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    If true, what an utter disgrace -

    Well that is absolutely disgusting and shameful. @BorisJohnson https://t.co/tspDf10e2C

    — Nora Mulready (@NoraMulready) September 2, 2019
    Boris loves american politics, there seems little reason to doubt he would adopt culture war tactics.

    Abortion, Evangelical Christianity, guns won't cut it here. Brexit is the major cultural divide, though Islamophobia and overt racism may well cut through in some communities. May need to sack Javid first though.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,849
    rkrkrk said:

    Superb effort.

    Thank you! Pull my guitar and do it on YouTube

    :-)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,274
    If the rebels manage to pass the measure blocking No Deal is Boris going to regret the prorogation?

    He may need more parliamentary time than remains until 9th September in order to repeal the FTPA.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    This is fascism. The rule by division, fear and "othering" through nationalism. All that is missing is arresting HM Opposition.
    Let’s have an election then - or is Jezza running scared ?
  • Con maj odds with the bookies continue to shorten. Now nearly evens...
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,093

    Drutt said:

    Drutt said:

    I don’t believe that there has been a single case ever of a Prime Minister advising a monarch not to give royal assent to a bill that both Houses of Parliament have passed. So what is being hinted at is literally without precedent.

    I don’t really understand why anyone thinks the Prime Minister even has a role in this process, never mind a veto.
    *Puts on nerdiest glasses, licks finger and puts it in the air*

    1708 Scottish Militia Bill. Passed both houses but the French were then sighted sailing to Scotland so Queen Anne decided not to trust the Scots with guns.
    There was no Prime Minister then.
    Boh. Out-nerded. *Tips nerdiest hat*
    Pretty much common knowledge that the Stuarts did not have PMs. Or I’m overestimating common knowledge?
    You are overestimating common knowledge.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Foxy said:


    Abortion, Evangelical Christianity, guns won't cut it here. Brexit is the major cultural divide, though Islamophobia and overt racism may well cut through in some communities. May need to sack Javid first though.

    Oh, it would need to be adjusted to work here, it won't be precisely the same issues that are used. But the same style is something we already seem to have mvoed toward anyway.
  • This is fascism. The rule by division, fear and "othering" through nationalism. All that is missing is arresting HM Opposition.
    So it's fascism, except lacking the actually fascist part.

    That sounds like a legit analysis.
  • Scott_P said:
    I think that’s already been dealt with. The government can bring forward legislation to specifically require a GE on a certain date.
    What's with the 14th? Would we really have a GE on a Monday?
    Days before the last EU council meeting before 31st October

    It does make sense and I just cannot see how labour reject it but retain any credibility

    For me it has to come and to be honest I am willing to accept the verdict of the people in a GE and whatever will be will be
    Your last sentence is spot on and pretty much where I am. I don’t want the country to go on like this. I know that there will be rancour whatever happens, but a decision will have been made. The uncertainty and the tricks and tactics on all sides is pretty unedifying and I just want to push for a resolution now. We either leave or we go to EURef II.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Interesting times even Tory councilors openly saying they will vote lib dem. Redwood says Hammond should be deselected if he does not support the Johnson line. Apart from our failed prospective parish councillor who lost the election to another Tory by two votes are there any decent tories left?
  • kinabalu said:

    What's with Boris Johnson referring to the leader of HM Opposition as "Corbyn" during a PM statement outside number 10?

    It's "Mr Corbyn" or it's "Jeremy Corbyn" or it's "The Leader of the Opposition".

    Does he think he's in Weatherspoons or at a golf club dinner or something?

    It's utterly disrespectful to the Labour party and its voters. This kind of myopia to their own arrogance is a real Achilles heel for the current, OE, iteration of the Tory party.
    Yes, i do slightly agree with that.

    "Mr Corbyn"...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    If the rebels manage to pass the measure blocking No Deal is Boris going to regret the prorogation?

    He may need more parliamentary time than remains until 9th September in order to repeal the FTPA.

    Why would this parliament repeal the FTPA?
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,272
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Quotes to come back to haunt them if their gamble does not pay off.
    Yeah, it seems like a weird thing to be happy about. They'd paint any bill as being "rEmOANers wAnT To GIvE PowR 2 BRUSL!!112" so frankly, the anti no-deal team needs to put forward the hardest bill possible. Then refuse an election and watch as Johnson either refuses to comply with the law or is forced to go to Brussels cap in hand.
  • justin124 said:

    Interesting. I wonder what gives him that confidence. Maybe half the PLP will defy Corbyn and abstain. Thirty deselected Tories might do likewiseChange UK plus various independents might add a further twenty five. How would the LibDems vote?If Plaid and the SNP decided to abstain , the numbers might be there to block Johnson - but the SNP sound keen to have an election.
    Abstentions are equivalent to votes against under the 2/3rds route. I don't think Johnson will bother going down that route.

    Johnson has proved himself utterly ruthless so far. So following loss of the control of the parliamentary agenda the government will table a VONC against itself, whipping Conservative MPs to vote for the motion. It would easily attract enough votes to pass on a simple majority.

    There would be no difficulty in justifying that course to the public. No self-respecting government can have confidence in its ability to govern when it has been deprived of control of the levers which enable governments to function.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    nichomar said:

    Interesting times even Tory councilors openly saying they will vote lib dem. Redwood says Hammond should be deselected if he does not support the Johnson line. Apart from our failed prospective parish councillor who lost the election to another Tory by two votes are there any decent tories left?

    By 'decent' I assume you only mean Remainers committed to stopping Brexit, which is hardly the same thing
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Interesting times even Tory councilors openly saying they will vote lib dem. Redwood says Hammond should be deselected if he does not support the Johnson line. Apart from our failed prospective parish councillor who lost the election to another Tory by two votes are there any decent tories left?

    By 'decent' I assume you only mean Remainers committed to stopping Brexit, which is hardly the same thing
    Remainers committed to stopping Brexit who did so by voting for Brexit multiple times?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    Scott_P said:

    Looks like the SCons are going into the election leaderless, and SLab might as well be, for all the good Leonard does.

    Does this matter?

    Yes.

    Sturgeon and Rennie have an open field.

    The Last election was "Nicola or Ruth"

    This one will be "Nicola or BoZo"
    Slam dunk.
    The SNP are still polling below 2015 levels when Ruth was still Tory leader in Scotland
  • Scott_P said:

    This is going to be a factor on the campaign trail

    https://twitter.com/stavvers/status/1168603522725818368

    BoZo is used to being surrounded by adoring fans.

    This desperate - utterly desperate - desire to be loved was really obvious the one time I met Johnson. He has charisma, but you could tell that he totally needed the attention of the room. I guess a lot of politicians are like this. But I've met 5 former or future PMs as well as other former Cabinet ministers and other senior politicians and none of them were like this. I feel absolutely certain that things will end very badly for him. And for us as long as he is in power.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Scott_P said:
    I think that’s already been dealt with. The government can bring forward legislation to specifically require a GE on a certain date.
    What's with the 14th? Would we really have a GE on a Monday?
    Days before the last EU council meeting before 31st October

    It does make sense and I just cannot see how labour reject it but retain any credibility

    For me it has to come and to be honest I am willing to accept the verdict of the people in a GE and whatever will be will be
    I am the same. Roll the dice. Let democracy speak. What will be will be. Anything is better than this endless horror.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited September 2019
    dr_spyn said:

    Rage from liberal elite doesn't help.

    https://twitter.com/unherd/status/1168599742751891456

    Spot on Vernon Bogdanor 'Liberal elitists are not used to losing and they're very bad losers and I suspect the public sense that and this gives rise to populism.. The Liberal elite are used to winning the debate, this time they're losing the debate and they don't like it'
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Scott_P said:

    This is going to be a factor on the campaign trail

    https://twitter.com/stavvers/status/1168603522725818368

    BoZo is used to being surrounded by adoring fans.

    This desperate - utterly desperate - desire to be loved was really obvious the one time I met Johnson. He has charisma, but you could tell that he totally needed the attention of the room. I guess a lot of politicians are like this. But I've met 5 former or future PMs as well as other former Cabinet ministers and other senior politicians and none of them were like this. I feel absolutely certain that things will end very badly for him. And for us as long as he is in power.
    And yet Churchill famously had the same problem. Narcissism.

    It can be bad, it can be good. Depends on the context.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729

    isam said:

    Very interesting article in today’s Times by Matthew Syed on the futility of echo chambers where people of similar backgrounds haughtily agree their way of doing things is the right way to the exclusion of other voices... Is he a lurker?


    Quite.
    Poster 1: 'This place is an echo chamber!'

    Poster 2: 'Quite.'

    Me: Err..

    I suppose we have just had the bi-annual header from a non Remainer
  • Just catching up with events, so bear with me if my question is stupid.

    1. IF rebels seize control of the Commons he will propose a motion for an early GE requiring 2/3rds majority, yes? What makes him think he will get it? A decent number of Tory MPs would at that point already have gone down the deselect me if you dare route, so they're out. And why would the opposition MPs having taken back control want to give it up? Yes I know that Magic Grandpa has been told he wants one by his handlers, but do Labour MPs?

    2. The threatened GE is the Monday before the EU summit. I had suggested the 17th as the election date a good whole back (before the summit was announced) on the likely Tory platform of "vote for me this Thursday and we leave a week/fortnight on Thursday. But the new government would be expected to go negotiate with Yerp, and your average Leave Zealot don't want no negotiation. To win an election Shagger needs Brexit voters to switch to the Tories. Why do that when the Tories promise something you don't want? Instead why not strengthen the hand of the No Deal True Brexit by voting Brexit. The slogan for Farage is simple in this scenario - BREXIT MEANS BREXIT

    3. On what fucking planet does Jezbollah live on if he thinks an October election where he promises to negotiate a deal to leave the EU is good for Labour...?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,600

    Scott_P said:
    I think that’s already been dealt with. The government can bring forward legislation to specifically require a GE on a certain date.
    What's with the 14th? Would we really have a GE on a Monday?
    There have been some scurrilous transgressions of convention these few months. But that would be the final straw!
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    Interesting. I wonder what gives him that confidence. Maybe half the PLP will defy Corbyn and abstain. Thirty deselected Tories might do likewiseChange UK plus various independents might add a further twenty five. How would the LibDems vote?If Plaid and the SNP decided to abstain , the numbers might be there to block Johnson - but the SNP sound keen to have an election.
    Abstentions are equivalent to votes against under the 2/3rds route. I don't think Johnson will bother going down that route.

    Johnson has proved himself utterly ruthless so far. So following loss of the control of the parliamentary agenda the government will table a VONC against itself, whipping Conservative MPs to vote for the motion. It would easily attract enough votes to pass on a simple majority.

    There would be no difficulty in justifying that course to the public. No self-respecting government can have confidence in its ability to govern when it has been deprived of control of the levers which enable governments to function.
    But the effect of that would be to set the 14 day clock ticking - and no election in mid-October!If an alternative PM emerges during that period, there would not be an immediate election.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,274
    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think that’s already been dealt with. The government can bring forward legislation to specifically require a GE on a certain date.
    What's with the 14th? Would we really have a GE on a Monday?
    Days before the last EU council meeting before 31st October

    It does make sense and I just cannot see how labour reject it but retain any credibility

    For me it has to come and to be honest I am willing to accept the verdict of the people in a GE and whatever will be will be
    I am the same. Roll the dice. Let democracy speak. What will be will be. Anything is better than this endless horror.
    Well me too tbf. If Boris campaigns on No Deal and wins a majority, so be it. At least the country will have voted for No Deal in that situation.
  • Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think that’s already been dealt with. The government can bring forward legislation to specifically require a GE on a certain date.
    What's with the 14th? Would we really have a GE on a Monday?
    Days before the last EU council meeting before 31st October

    It does make sense and I just cannot see how labour reject it but retain any credibility

    For me it has to come and to be honest I am willing to accept the verdict of the people in a GE and whatever will be will be
    I am the same. Roll the dice. Let democracy speak. What will be will be. Anything is better than this endless horror.
    And to be honest I will not campaign for the party but will vote for the candidate best placed to beat the corbynista labour candidate in this marginal con - lab former seat of Guto Bebb
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,849

    This desperate - utterly desperate - desire to be loved was really obvious the one time I met Johnson. He has charisma, but you could tell that he totally needed the attention of the room. I guess a lot of politicians are like this. But I've met 5 former or future PMs as well as other former Cabinet ministers and other senior politicians and none of them were like this. I feel absolutely certain that things will end very badly for him. And for us as long as he is in power.

    Very interesting.

    So if we HAD to go for a simplistic binary multiple choice between -

    (a) Unprincipled and essentially vacuous poshboy

    or

    (b) Great Man

    Where would your tick go?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,274

    Scott_P said:

    This is going to be a factor on the campaign trail

    https://twitter.com/stavvers/status/1168603522725818368

    BoZo is used to being surrounded by adoring fans.

    This desperate - utterly desperate - desire to be loved was really obvious the one time I met Johnson. He has charisma, but you could tell that he totally needed the attention of the room. I guess a lot of politicians are like this. But I've met 5 former or future PMs as well as other former Cabinet ministers and other senior politicians and none of them were like this. I feel absolutely certain that things will end very badly for him. And for us as long as he is in power.

    Blimey - you've met 5 PMs?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Eh, he has wiggle room to say he wants one, but only on his terms.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Scott_P said:

    This is going to be a factor on the campaign trail

    https://twitter.com/stavvers/status/1168603522725818368

    BoZo is used to being surrounded by adoring fans.

    Hilarious,

    She in no way felt like this before. No siree....
    I don't really see what her point is. She has a psychiatric disorder and that qualifies her to wish it on other people? Is it also ok for cancer victims to say "I hope you get cancer"?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    kle4 said:

    Eh, he has wiggle room to say he wants one, but only on his terms.
    Jezza turning down a GE would be comedy gold 😁
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Byronic said:

    AndyJS said:

    The only thing that can save Johnson is Labour rebels voting for the government, but I can't see more than about 10 or 15 doing so, which won't be enough.

    He doesn’t want saving. He wants to lose. He wants to be forced into a People V Parliament election, with him on the side of the people.

    Blair is entirely right.
    Remember that Theresa May speech that many on here were proclaiming as Brilliant as it set up the situation as The People vs Parliament with her on the side of the People and had totally changed everything the Withdrawal Agreement will totally pass now?

    Pepperidge Farm remebers.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,056
    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think that’s already been dealt with. The government can bring forward legislation to specifically require a GE on a certain date.
    What's with the 14th? Would we really have a GE on a Monday?
    Days before the last EU council meeting before 31st October

    It does make sense and I just cannot see how labour reject it but retain any credibility

    For me it has to come and to be honest I am willing to accept the verdict of the people in a GE and whatever will be will be
    I am the same. Roll the dice. Let democracy speak. What will be will be. Anything is better than this endless horror.
    Democracy can only speak if the A50 clock is stopped before the election. Any new government needs enough time to negotiate with the EU.
  • kinabalu said:

    This desperate - utterly desperate - desire to be loved was really obvious the one time I met Johnson. He has charisma, but you could tell that he totally needed the attention of the room. I guess a lot of politicians are like this. But I've met 5 former or future PMs as well as other former Cabinet ministers and other senior politicians and none of them were like this. I feel absolutely certain that things will end very badly for him. And for us as long as he is in power.

    Very interesting.

    So if we HAD to go for a simplistic binary multiple choice between -

    (a) Unprincipled and essentially vacuous poshboy

    or

    (b) Great Man

    Where would your tick go?
    I would say unprincipled but not vacuous. He's clearly very clever, cleverer than Cameron. But I thought he came over as damaged.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,274

    justin124 said:

    Interesting. I wonder what gives him that confidence. Maybe half the PLP will defy Corbyn and abstain. Thirty deselected Tories might do likewiseChange UK plus various independents might add a further twenty five. How would the LibDems vote?If Plaid and the SNP decided to abstain , the numbers might be there to block Johnson - but the SNP sound keen to have an election.
    Abstentions are equivalent to votes against under the 2/3rds route. I don't think Johnson will bother going down that route.

    Johnson has proved himself utterly ruthless so far. So following loss of the control of the parliamentary agenda the government will table a VONC against itself, whipping Conservative MPs to vote for the motion. It would easily attract enough votes to pass on a simple majority.

    There would be no difficulty in justifying that course to the public. No self-respecting government can have confidence in its ability to govern when it has been deprived of control of the levers which enable governments to function.
    That does seem a more sensible route to a GE but...

    ... wouldn't it give Corbyn a chance to be PM (at least until he's VONCed)?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited September 2019
    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:

    This is going to be a factor on the campaign trail

    https://twitter.com/stavvers/status/1168603522725818368

    BoZo is used to being surrounded by adoring fans.

    This desperate - utterly desperate - desire to be loved was really obvious the one time I met Johnson. He has charisma, but you could tell that he totally needed the attention of the room. I guess a lot of politicians are like this. But I've met 5 former or future PMs as well as other former Cabinet ministers and other senior politicians and none of them were like this. I feel absolutely certain that things will end very badly for him. And for us as long as he is in power.
    And yet Churchill famously had the same problem. Narcissism.

    It can be bad, it can be good. Depends on the context.
    True but most of our election winning PMs, Churchill (in 1951), Wilson, Thatcher, Blair, Cameron etc had masses of charisma and narcissism, as does Boris
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,056

    Scott_P said:

    This is going to be a factor on the campaign trail

    https://twitter.com/stavvers/status/1168603522725818368

    BoZo is used to being surrounded by adoring fans.

    This desperate - utterly desperate - desire to be loved was really obvious the one time I met Johnson. He has charisma, but you could tell that he totally needed the attention of the room. I guess a lot of politicians are like this. But I've met 5 former or future PMs as well as other former Cabinet ministers and other senior politicians and none of them were like this. I feel absolutely certain that things will end very badly for him. And for us as long as he is in power.
    Boris forgets that all political careers end in failure, and being despised is the lot of former PMs, but he seems unusually keen to reach that state very quickly.
  • spire2spire2 Posts: 183
    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:

    This is going to be a factor on the campaign trail

    https://twitter.com/stavvers/status/1168603522725818368

    BoZo is used to being surrounded by adoring fans.

    This desperate - utterly desperate - desire to be loved was really obvious the one time I met Johnson. He has charisma, but you could tell that he totally needed the attention of the room. I guess a lot of politicians are like this. But I've met 5 former or future PMs as well as other former Cabinet ministers and other senior politicians and none of them were like this. I feel absolutely certain that things will end very badly for him. And for us as long as he is in power.
    And yet Churchill famously had the same problem. Narcissism.

    It can be bad, it can be good. Depends on the context.
    True but most of our election winning PMs, Churchill (in 1951), Wilson, Thatcher, Blair, Cameron etc had masses of charisma
    Cameron?
  • Scott_P said:

    This is going to be a factor on the campaign trail

    https://twitter.com/stavvers/status/1168603522725818368

    BoZo is used to being surrounded by adoring fans.

    This desperate - utterly desperate - desire to be loved was really obvious the one time I met Johnson. He has charisma, but you could tell that he totally needed the attention of the room. I guess a lot of politicians are like this. But I've met 5 former or future PMs as well as other former Cabinet ministers and other senior politicians and none of them were like this. I feel absolutely certain that things will end very badly for him. And for us as long as he is in power.

    Blimey - you've met 5 PMs?
    Yes. I wasn't trying to show off, just putting my comments on Johnson in some context.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think that’s already been dealt with. The government can bring forward legislation to specifically require a GE on a certain date.
    What's with the 14th? Would we really have a GE on a Monday?
    Days before the last EU council meeting before 31st October

    It does make sense and I just cannot see how labour reject it but retain any credibility

    For me it has to come and to be honest I am willing to accept the verdict of the people in a GE and whatever will be will be
    I am the same. Roll the dice. Let democracy speak. What will be will be. Anything is better than this endless horror.
    Well me too tbf. If Boris campaigns on No Deal and wins a majority, so be it. At least the country will have voted for No Deal in that situation.

    Is this a rare but important moment of PB accord?

    I hope so. We are all democrats. Aren’t we? Then let an election decide it all.

    If the Scots vote for 100 MPs, let them have a referendum and go indy. So be it. If the Libs win, let them revoke Brexit, and make sandals compulsory on weekdays. If Corbyn wins out, and wants Chavez style communism, fair enough, I’ll likely leave for Greece, but fair enough.

    Let us choose. And put an end to the gruesome and endless pantomime we have now.
  • TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    Eh, he has wiggle room to say he wants one, but only on his terms.
    Jezza turning down a GE would be comedy gold 😁
    A Leader of the Opposition who turned down an election would be admitting that they were no Leader and no Opposition at all ... Boris would be able to laugh in Corbyn's face at every PMQs until doomsday if that happened!
  • HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:

    Looks like the SCons are going into the election leaderless, and SLab might as well be, for all the good Leonard does.

    Does this matter?

    Yes.

    Sturgeon and Rennie have an open field.

    The Last election was "Nicola or Ruth"

    This one will be "Nicola or BoZo"
    Slam dunk.
    The SNP are still polling below 2015 levels when Ruth was still Tory leader in Scotland
    How do you know? We haven’t had any Scottish VI polls since June.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think that’s already been dealt with. The government can bring forward legislation to specifically require a GE on a certain date.
    What's with the 14th? Would we really have a GE on a Monday?
    Days before the last EU council meeting before 31st October

    It does make sense and I just cannot see how labour reject it but retain any credibility

    For me it has to come and to be honest I am willing to accept the verdict of the people in a GE and whatever will be will be
    I am the same. Roll the dice. Let democracy speak. What will be will be. Anything is better than this endless horror.
    Well me too tbf. If Boris campaigns on No Deal and wins a majority, so be it. At least the country will have voted for No Deal in that situation.

    Is this a rare but important moment of PB accord?

    I hope so. We are all democrats. Aren’t we? Then let an election decide it all.

    If the Scots vote for 100 MPs, let them have a referendum and go indy. So be it. If the Libs win, let them revoke Brexit, and make sandals compulsory on weekdays. If Corbyn wins out, and wants Chavez style communism, fair enough, I’ll likely leave for Greece, but fair enough.

    Let us choose. And put an end to the gruesome and endless pantomime we have now.
    You were telling us to f*ck off about 30 mins ago.
  • Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think that’s already been dealt with. The government can bring forward legislation to specifically require a GE on a certain date.
    What's with the 14th? Would we really have a GE on a Monday?
    Days before the last EU council meeting before 31st October

    It does make sense and I just cannot see how labour reject it but retain any credibility

    For me it has to come and to be honest I am willing to accept the verdict of the people in a GE and whatever will be will be
    I am the same. Roll the dice. Let democracy speak. What will be will be. Anything is better than this endless horror.
    Well me too tbf. If Boris campaigns on No Deal and wins a majority, so be it. At least the country will have voted for No Deal in that situation.

    Is this a rare but important moment of PB accord?

    I hope so. We are all democrats. Aren’t we? Then let an election decide it all.

    If the Scots vote for 100 MPs, let them have a referendum and go indy. So be it. If the Libs win, let them revoke Brexit, and make sandals compulsory on weekdays. If Corbyn wins out, and wants Chavez style communism, fair enough, I’ll likely leave for Greece, but fair enough.

    Let us choose. And put an end to the gruesome and endless pantomime we have now.
    What if it's a draw...
  • Best prices - outcome next UK GE

    NOM 3/4
    Con Maj 8/5
    Lab Maj 14/1
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,137

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:

    Looks like the SCons are going into the election leaderless, and SLab might as well be, for all the good Leonard does.

    Does this matter?

    Yes.

    Sturgeon and Rennie have an open field.

    The Last election was "Nicola or Ruth"

    This one will be "Nicola or BoZo"
    Slam dunk.
    The SNP are still polling below 2015 levels when Ruth was still Tory leader in Scotland
    How do you know? We haven’t had any Scottish VI polls since June.
    You got there before me.

    No Tory party leader - above all the great hope of the Unionists, Ms Davidson.

    Mr Johnson as Prime Minister of the UK.

    The threats to legality in Westminster.

    Quite a few changes ...
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578
    Foxy said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think that’s already been dealt with. The government can bring forward legislation to specifically require a GE on a certain date.
    What's with the 14th? Would we really have a GE on a Monday?
    Days before the last EU council meeting before 31st October

    It does make sense and I just cannot see how labour reject it but retain any credibility

    For me it has to come and to be honest I am willing to accept the verdict of the people in a GE and whatever will be will be
    I am the same. Roll the dice. Let democracy speak. What will be will be. Anything is better than this endless horror.
    Democracy can only speak if the A50 clock is stopped before the election. Any new government needs enough time to negotiate with the EU.
    A new government can revoke, or ask for a long extension. What’s the problem?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,274

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Quotes to come back to haunt them if their gamble does not pay off.
    It doesnt need to.

    Dont you realise?

    Continually posting comments that imply you have some innate superior understanding of the situation and then patronisingly questioning our lack of comprehension isn't cool.

    Don't you get it?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    HYUFD said:

    nichomar said:

    Interesting times even Tory councilors openly saying they will vote lib dem. Redwood says Hammond should be deselected if he does not support the Johnson line. Apart from our failed prospective parish councillor who lost the election to another Tory by two votes are there any decent tories left?

    By 'decent' I assume you only mean Remainers committed to stopping Brexit, which is hardly the same thing
    No, not EXACTLY the same thing.
  • Scott_P said:
    I suggest these strategists have a look at the audience queuing outside the Rocky Horror Show in northern towns. Working class people have just as wide a selection of views as middle class ones.
    I think most people, what ever their background, have an inate sense of right and wrong when it comes to individual rights and beliefs. The idea that a campaign vilifying a vulnerable minority would gain traction amongst people just because they are 'Northern' or working class is offensive and wrong.
    That's an interesting comment given the leave campaign's concentration on Turkey (and by extension Turks) before the referendum.

    Or are they the 'wrong' minority?
    And that is yet another stupid fucking comment from you given I attacked that campaign at the time. Crawl back under your rock.
    A leave campaign vilified a minority (and one of which I am personally acquainted) - worse, people on here still defend that vilification. Some even say it helped the 'victory' for leave. That, according to your post, was offensive and wrong. Fair enough. But that offensiveness played a part in *your* victory.

    So, calm down and take a deep breath.

    (fx: waits)

    Now, can I have a well-considered response?
    My well considered response is tbat you are as bad as the racists, tarring people not bevause of their views and actions but because of their associations. I presume you consider all 17 million who voted for Brexit to be racists. That is why you are part of the problem not the solution.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think that’s already been dealt with. The government can bring forward legislation to specifically require a GE on a certain date.
    What's with the 14th? Would we really have a GE on a Monday?
    Days before the last EU council meeting before 31st October

    It does make sense and I just cannot see how labour reject it but retain any credibility

    For me it has to come and to be honest I am willing to accept the verdict of the people in a GE and whatever will be will be
    I am the same. Roll the dice. Let democracy speak. What will be will be. Anything is better than this endless horror.
    Well me too tbf. If Boris campaigns on No Deal and wins a majority, so be it. At least the country will have voted for No Deal in that situation.

    Is this a rare but important moment of PB accord?

    I hope so. We are all democrats. Aren’t we? Then let an election decide it all.

    If the Scots vote for 100 MPs, let them have a referendum and go indy. So be it. If the Libs win, let them revoke Brexit, and make sandals compulsory on weekdays. If Corbyn wins out, and wants Chavez style communism, fair enough, I’ll likely leave for Greece, but fair enough.

    Let us choose. And put an end to the gruesome and endless pantomime we have now.
    You were telling us to f*ck off about 30 mins ago.
    Only williamglenn. And I’ve had a nice supper since
  • ‪Cummings is doing all he can to revive the 2017 Tory electoral coalition, but in doing so is also giving Labour the best possible chance of reviving its one. And this time with added LibDem and SNP interest in seats Labour can’t win. It’s a huge gamble.‬
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Scott_P said:

    Hardly an independent commentator. Let us see how the great public view this over the next few days

    https://twitter.com/RemainiacsCast/status/1168575865493565441

    And you think that “Remainiacs Cast” is more neutral?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,056
    blueblue said:

    TGOHF said:

    kle4 said:

    Eh, he has wiggle room to say he wants one, but only on his terms.
    Jezza turning down a GE would be comedy gold 😁
    A Leader of the Opposition who turned down an election would be admitting that they were no Leader and no Opposition at all ... Boris would be able to laugh in Corbyn's face at every PMQs until doomsday if that happened!
    After A50 is extended, I am sure that Jezza will be very happy to have an election. It is just a matter of timing.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,849

    I would say unprincipled but not vacuous. He's clearly very clever, cleverer than Cameron. But I thought he came over as damaged.

    Yes, I very much sense something like that.

    He reminds me of Jimmy Savile.

    Not in a defamatory sense - I don't mean that - but in the bluff deflecting 'persona', never quite serious, hiding what is really at the core, which could be quite dark, or it could be - and this in a sense is the darkest of all - NOTHING.

    Patrick Bateman. Tom Ripley. And, yes, Jimmy Savile These types. You know what I mean?
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    tlg86 said:
    Let's say 250 Tory mps vote for it, and another 200 labour mps as well. That is easily enough
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:

    This is going to be a factor on the campaign trail

    https://twitter.com/stavvers/status/1168603522725818368

    BoZo is used to being surrounded by adoring fans.

    This desperate - utterly desperate - desire to be loved was really obvious the one time I met Johnson. He has charisma, but you could tell that he totally needed the attention of the room. I guess a lot of politicians are like this. But I've met 5 former or future PMs as well as other former Cabinet ministers and other senior politicians and none of them were like this. I feel absolutely certain that things will end very badly for him. And for us as long as he is in power.
    And yet Churchill famously had the same problem. Narcissism.

    It can be bad, it can be good. Depends on the context.
    True but most of our election winning PMs, Churchill (in 1951), Wilson, Thatcher, Blair, Cameron etc had masses of charisma and narcissism, as does Boris
    Johnson is a camels hoof
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,274
    edited September 2019
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think that’s already been dealt with. The government can bring forward legislation to specifically require a GE on a certain date.
    What's with the 14th? Would we really have a GE on a Monday?
    Days before the last EU council meeting before 31st October

    It does make sense and I just cannot see how labour reject it but retain any credibility

    For me it has to come and to be honest I am willing to accept the verdict of the people in a GE and whatever will be will be
    I am the same. Roll the dice. Let democracy speak. What will be will be. Anything is better than this endless horror.
    Well me too tbf. If Boris campaigns on No Deal and wins a majority, so be it. At least the country will have voted for No Deal in that situation.

    Is this a rare but important moment of PB accord?

    I hope so. We are all democrats. Aren’t we? Then let an election decide it all.

    If the Scots vote for 100 MPs, let them have a referendum and go indy. So be it. If the Libs win, let them revoke Brexit, and make sandals compulsory on weekdays. If Corbyn wins out, and wants Chavez style communism, fair enough, I’ll likely leave for Greece, but fair enough.

    Let us choose. And put an end to the gruesome and endless pantomime we have now.
    At least if Corbyn gets in we'll maintain a relationship with the EU so you will be able to move to Greece :wink:
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Charles said:

    And you think that “Remainiacs Cast” is more neutral?

    They're right though
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,137
    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:

    This is going to be a factor on the campaign trail

    https://twitter.com/stavvers/status/1168603522725818368

    BoZo is used to being surrounded by adoring fans.

    This desperate - utterly desperate - desire to be loved was really obvious the one time I met Johnson. He has charisma, but you could tell that he totally needed the attention of the room. I guess a lot of politicians are like this. But I've met 5 former or future PMs as well as other former Cabinet ministers and other senior politicians and none of them were like this. I feel absolutely certain that things will end very badly for him. And for us as long as he is in power.
    And yet Churchill famously had the same problem. Narcissism.

    It can be bad, it can be good. Depends on the context.
    True but most of our election winning PMs, Churchill (in 1951), Wilson, Thatcher, Blair, Cameron etc had masses of charisma and narcissism, as does Boris
    But logically your argument only works if you can show that election losing PMs had less in the way of charisma and narcissism. Indeed the prima facie hypothesis might be that it was the ones with lots of self-deluding narcissism who were prone to lose.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,274

    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think that’s already been dealt with. The government can bring forward legislation to specifically require a GE on a certain date.
    What's with the 14th? Would we really have a GE on a Monday?
    Days before the last EU council meeting before 31st October

    It does make sense and I just cannot see how labour reject it but retain any credibility

    For me it has to come and to be honest I am willing to accept the verdict of the people in a GE and whatever will be will be
    I am the same. Roll the dice. Let democracy speak. What will be will be. Anything is better than this endless horror.
    Well me too tbf. If Boris campaigns on No Deal and wins a majority, so be it. At least the country will have voted for No Deal in that situation.

    Is this a rare but important moment of PB accord?

    I hope so. We are all democrats. Aren’t we? Then let an election decide it all.

    If the Scots vote for 100 MPs, let them have a referendum and go indy. So be it. If the Libs win, let them revoke Brexit, and make sandals compulsory on weekdays. If Corbyn wins out, and wants Chavez style communism, fair enough, I’ll likely leave for Greece, but fair enough.

    Let us choose. And put an end to the gruesome and endless pantomime we have now.
    You were telling us to f*ck off about 30 mins ago.
    The alcohol's worn off a bit :wink:
  • kinabalu said:

    I would say unprincipled but not vacuous. He's clearly very clever, cleverer than Cameron. But I thought he came over as damaged.

    Yes, I very much sense something like that.

    He reminds me of Jimmy Savile.

    Not in a defamatory sense - I don't mean that - but in the bluff deflecting 'persona', never quite serious, hiding what is really at the core, which could be quite dark, or it could be - and this in a sense is the darkest of all - NOTHING.

    Patrick Bateman. Tom Ripley. And, yes, Jimmy Savile These types. You know what I mean?
    Yes and also not wanting to be defamatory but I agree with you totally. There's something not quite right about him.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited September 2019

    ‪Cummings is doing all he can to revive the 2017 Tory electoral coalition, but in doing so is also giving Labour the best possible chance of reviving its one. And this time with added LibDem and SNP interest in seats Labour can’t win. It’s a huge gamble.‬

    Well true but that is the only way the Tories can win, reviving May's post extension coalition which saw the Tories get just 9% in the European elections and get beaten by the Brexit Party, the LDs and Labour and come third in the Peterborough by election was a disaster.

    The LDs are also polling higher than in 2017 and Labour is polling lower
  • Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think that’s already been dealt with. The government can bring forward legislation to specifically require a GE on a certain date.
    What's with the 14th? Would we really have a GE on a Monday?
    Days before the last EU council meeting before 31st October

    It does make sense and I just cannot see how labour reject it but retain any credibility

    For me it has to come and to be honest I am willing to accept the verdict of the people in a GE and whatever will be will be
    I am the same. Roll the dice. Let democracy speak. What will be will be. Anything is better than this endless horror.
    Well me too tbf. If Boris campaigns on No Deal and wins a majority, so be it. At least the country will have voted for No Deal in that situation.

    Is this a rare but important moment of PB accord?

    I hope so. We are all democrats. Aren’t we? Then let an election decide it all.

    If the Scots vote for 100 MPs, let them have a referendum and go indy. So be it. If the Libs win, let them revoke Brexit, and make sandals compulsory on weekdays. If Corbyn wins out, and wants Chavez style communism, fair enough, I’ll likely leave for Greece, but fair enough.

    Let us choose. And put an end to the gruesome and endless pantomime we have now.
    Exactly my attitude.

    Lets have a GE and shake it all out

    Mind you my cruise to Canada and US takes me away from the 14th September to the 8th October so I get the pleasure of missing all the campaigns
  • HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:

    Looks like the SCons are going into the election leaderless, and SLab might as well be, for all the good Leonard does.

    Does this matter?

    Yes.

    Sturgeon and Rennie have an open field.

    The Last election was "Nicola or Ruth"

    This one will be "Nicola or BoZo"
    Slam dunk.
    The SNP are still polling below 2015 levels when Ruth was still Tory leader in Scotland
    How do you know? We haven’t had any Scottish VI polls since June.
    The SNP will do very well at the expense of the conservatives and labour

    I know, I know Scotland and it's politics
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:

    Looks like the SCons are going into the election leaderless, and SLab might as well be, for all the good Leonard does.

    Does this matter?

    Yes.

    Sturgeon and Rennie have an open field.

    The Last election was "Nicola or Ruth"

    This one will be "Nicola or BoZo"
    Slam dunk.
    The SNP are still polling below 2015 levels when Ruth was still Tory leader in Scotland
    How do you know? We haven’t had any Scottish VI polls since June.
    Not one Westminster Scottish subsample has had the SNP even matching the 50% they got in 2015
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    spire2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:

    This is going to be a factor on the campaign trail

    https://twitter.com/stavvers/status/1168603522725818368

    BoZo is used to being surrounded by adoring fans.

    This desperate - utterly desperate - desire to be loved was really obvious the one time I met Johnson. He has charisma, but you could tell that he totally needed the attention of the room. I guess a lot of politicians are like this. But I've met 5 former or future PMs as well as other former Cabinet ministers and other senior politicians and none of them were like this. I feel absolutely certain that things will end very badly for him. And for us as long as he is in power.
    And yet Churchill famously had the same problem. Narcissism.

    It can be bad, it can be good. Depends on the context.
    True but most of our election winning PMs, Churchill (in 1951), Wilson, Thatcher, Blair, Cameron etc had masses of charisma
    Cameron?
    Yes, he had more charisma than Brown and Ed Miliband
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,211
    By all accounts Mrs T treated those who worked for her with exceptional consideration and kindness. What is the evidence of her alleged narcissism?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,600

    ‪Cummings is doing all he can to revive the 2017 Tory electoral coalition, but in doing so is also giving Labour the best possible chance of reviving its one. And this time with added LibDem and SNP interest in seats Labour can’t win. It’s a huge gamble.‬

    I think most Remain voters can easily spot the difference between common or garden Labour MPs and raging Corbynites (who are fewer in number). I’d expect a huge tactical voting campaign and, given nobody expects a Corbo majority, people feeling safe to vote Labour. As you say, similar to 2017.

    Demographic change brings interesting seats into play like Chingford & Woodford Green, a leafy seat in the far north London suburbs close to Epping Forest, which was once a Tory stronghold, which went marginally for Remain. Arch Leaver IDS has a fight on his hands there now.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,274

    Scott_P said:

    This is going to be a factor on the campaign trail

    https://twitter.com/stavvers/status/1168603522725818368

    BoZo is used to being surrounded by adoring fans.

    This desperate - utterly desperate - desire to be loved was really obvious the one time I met Johnson. He has charisma, but you could tell that he totally needed the attention of the room. I guess a lot of politicians are like this. But I've met 5 former or future PMs as well as other former Cabinet ministers and other senior politicians and none of them were like this. I feel absolutely certain that things will end very badly for him. And for us as long as he is in power.

    Blimey - you've met 5 PMs?
    Yes. I wasn't trying to show off, just putting my comments on Johnson in some context.
    No, I didn't think you were trying to show off but as someone who has never met a single cabinet minister, let alone a PM, I was impressed!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    HYUFD said:

    ‪Cummings is doing all he can to revive the 2017 Tory electoral coalition, but in doing so is also giving Labour the best possible chance of reviving its one. And this time with added LibDem and SNP interest in seats Labour can’t win. It’s a huge gamble.‬

    Well true but that is the only way the Tories can win, reviving May's post extension coalition which saw the Tories get just 9% in the European elections and get beaten by the Brexit Party, the LDs and Labour and come third in the Peterborough by election was a disaster.

    The LDs are also polling higher than in 2017 and Labour is polling lower
    Euro elections are irrelevant. If they were relevant Farage won in 2015.
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 1,093
    nunuone said:

    tlg86 said:
    Let's say 250 Tory mps vote for it, and another 200 labour mps as well. That is easily enough
    You only need 320 tops to pass an Act saying 'notwithstanding FTPA the next GE is on 17 Oct'. Although that is amendable whilst still a bill and liable to Cooper-Letwin-Boles-Hammonding
  • Another election in student term time.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited September 2019
    Byronic said:

    Byronic said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think that’s already been dealt with. The government can bring forward legislation to specifically require a GE on a certain date.
    What's with the 14th? Would we really have a GE on a Monday?
    Days before the last EU council meeting before 31st October

    It does make sense and I just cannot see how labour reject it but retain any credibility

    For me it has to come and to be honest I am willing to accept the verdict of the people in a GE and whatever will be will be
    I am the same. Roll the dice. Let democracy speak. What will be will be. Anything is better than this endless horror.
    Well me too tbf. If Boris campaigns on No Deal and wins a majority, so be it. At least the country will have voted for No Deal in that situation.

    Is this a rare but important moment of PB accord?

    I hope so. We are all democrats. Aren’t we? Then let an election decide it all.

    If the Scots vote for 100 MPs, let them have a referendum and go indy. So be it. If the Libs win, let them revoke Brexit, and make sandals compulsory on weekdays. If Corbyn wins out, and wants Chavez style communism, fair enough, I’ll likely leave for Greece, but fair enough.

    Let us choose. And put an end to the gruesome and endless pantomime we have now.
    Would have been even more impressed if you'd said "If Corbyn wins out, and wants Chavez style communism, fair enough, I’ll likely leave for Venezuela, but fair enough." PS This is a joke, not serious ...
This discussion has been closed.