So how does agrifood resolve all the other markets, taxes and laws...
I understand there are three areas at stake:
- People - Customs - Live animals
People seems to be dealt with by CTA/Schengen opt out for Ireland. Customs can be done by making it a criminal act in each side's domestic law. Live animals os a thorny one but looks like Boris is playing for DUP to back down.
Sorry, but how does making cross-border trade without paying tariffs a criminal act protect the Good Friday Agreement?
I think the past 24 hours have been utterly devastating for the Conservatives. Worse than Black Wednesday by a significant factor.
The optics are truly awful. Starting with Johnson's bullshit speech outside Number 10 being drowned out by booing. Losing a phlanx of the most solidly Tory MPs you could imagine through your own childish intransigence. The utterly bollocks "rowing back from austerity", Lee crossing the floor, the much bigger defeat than expected and the body language of Rees Mogg. 100,000 signing up to vote in 24 hours- the *same 24 hours* as the Tory government imploded.
This is the inflection point when the Tories can't get it back.
I think the polls will be increasingly terrifying for Johnson- no one likes losers, and they particularly don't like entitled bastard losers.
I also think that tactical voting against the Tories will accelerate the losses they are going to make.
1997 may not be the low point for the Tories- this time I don't think that they can come back.
What utter crap, the latest poll gives a 10% Tory lead what clueless diehard Remainers like you cannot understand is the people have had enough, they are fed up with being patronised by the likes of you and by a Commons which refuses to respect their Leave vote which is why Boris will win the next general election and crush Corbyn Labour once and for all into the bargain
And what clueless diehard remainers like you don't realise is that the Tory party is not your party any more.
How will Remainers react if there is an election and Boris wins a comfortable majority?
This is the most likely scenario. We will all have to suck it up and then watch what happens as Johnson delivers his "easily manageable" No Deal Brexit.
Yes when Johnson wins his majority, you get on with life and watch. What else can you do ?
So how does agrifood resolve all the other markets, taxes and laws...
I understand there are three areas at stake:
- People - Customs - Live animals
People seems to be dealt with by CTA/Schengen opt out for Ireland. Customs can be done by making it a criminal act in each side's domestic law. Live animals os a thorny one but looks like Boris is playing for DUP to back down.
Sorry, but how does making cross-border trade without paying tariffs a criminal act protect the Good Friday Agreement?
No it is great news for Boris, Parliament blocking the will of the people and defying 17 million Leave voters as the Tories poll lead grows further
It is clear from last night's YouGov poll that by some considerable margin the mood of the public is to view the actions of Remainer MPs blocking no deal as undemocratic, and their actions are indeed now in plain view for all to see.
Furthermore, the Conservatives amongst them have now given Johnson good reason to act against them. If Johnson was going to lose the Commons stage of the bill to stop "no deal", and he always was whatever he did, it was surely better for him to lose it by a bigger margin than a smaller one. The opposition to him from diehard Remainer Conservative MPs was always there but now 22 have been smoked out and have lost the whip. The opportunity will be there quite shortly to replace them with MPs who back Johnson's stance. The alternative might have been that only those MPs (such as Soames) who intended to stand down rebelled, sufficient for the bill still to pass but still leaving the likes of Hammond and Gauke in place after the next election.
The most interesting thing in the Commons tonight may be to see whether Boris gets a simple majority for an election. If he does, he may try to override the FTPA using that majority. (I know the Lords is a problem from his point of view). But if he can't even get a simple majority for an election, the whole idea is obviously dead in the water.
“There is absolutely no appetite in the EU to throw Britain off the Brexit cliff edge,” said one EU diplomat. “If the UK parliament were to ask for an extension to prevent a no-deal outcome, it would be hard to see how the EU27 could refuse that.”
So how does agrifood resolve all the other markets, taxes and laws...
I understand there are three areas at stake:
- People - Customs - Live animals
People seems to be dealt with by CTA/Schengen opt out for Ireland. Customs can be done by making it a criminal act in each side's domestic law. Live animals os a thorny one but looks like Boris is playing for DUP to back down.
Sorry, but how does making cross-border trade without paying tariffs a criminal act protect the Good Friday Agreement?
Unfortunately Nicola doesn't want to hang around until Labour's polls lead recovers.
Nicola + Boris isn't 440 MPs. And the FTPA requires 440 MPs to vote for an early election.
But a one clause Bill doesn’t: and if they are agreed on the text it won’t be amended. If it looks likely, Corbyn will have to find a way to support.
Where did this one clause Bill idea come from as it's not supported under the FTPA.
"Alternatively, as the New Statesman’s political editor Stephen Bush has noted, an election can be called by “passing a one-line bill stating that ‘notwithstanding the Fixed-term Parliaments Act, the next election will be on X, the FTPA act will continue to apply otherwise” (one route Theresa May considered in 2017)."
And thus the supermajority provision in the FTPA is effectively worthless, because it can be set aside by a simple majority. Boris Johnson's problem is, of course, that he doesn't have even a simple majority that will support him, hence the fact that neither this route nor the mechanism of simply no-confidencing himself are available to him.
For supermajorities to be effective, e.g. as used for some decisions in the US Congress, they need to be contained within constitutions or basic laws that a legislature can't simply amend or repeal entirely under its own authority.
The supermajority is for a motion in the Commons alone.
Your simple majority would require the Lords to vote for it too, which they would be in their right not to do if the simple majority were being used to dodge the supermajority. (Though I'd back repeal of the FTPA anyway).
Unfortunately Nicola doesn't want to hang around until Labour's polls lead recovers.
Nicola + Boris isn't 440 MPs. And the FTPA requires 440 MPs to vote for an early election.
But a one clause Bill doesn’t: and if they are agreed on the text it won’t be amended. If it looks likely, Corbyn will have to find a way to support.
Where did this one clause Bill idea come from as it's not supported under the FTPA.
"Alternatively, as the New Statesman’s political editor Stephen Bush has noted, an election can be called by “passing a one-line bill stating that ‘notwithstanding the Fixed-term Parliaments Act, the next election will be on X, the FTPA act will continue to apply otherwise” (one route Theresa May considered in 2017)."
And thus the supermajority provision in the FTPA is effectively worthless, because it can be set aside by a simple majority. Boris Johnson's problem is, of course, that he doesn't have even a simple majority that will support him, hence the fact that neither this route nor the mechanism of simply no-confidencing himself are available to him.
For supermajorities to be effective, e.g. as used for some decisions in the US Congress, they need to be contained within constitutions or basic laws that a legislature can't simply amend or repeal entirely under its own authority.
The supermajority is for a motion in the Commons alone.
Your simple majority would require the Lords to vote for it too, which they would be in their right not to do if the simple majority were being used to dodge the supermajority. (Though I'd back repeal of the FTPA anyway).
Lords would block the Commons voting for an election?
How will Remainers react if there is an election and Boris wins a comfortable majority?
I would prefer a deal but think no options are good.
The chance of a deal is better if Boris wins a decent majority and an extension has been agreed before the election than it would have been without an election.
Also if we are going to actually no deal it is better with a govt majority than a minority, and it is better with a mandate than no mandate. The voters, the PM and his party will have to own it and its outcomes.
So in terms of Brexit outcomes it would be no worse than we were a month ago. However the disappointment would be that the country rewards recklessness, dishonesty, disloyalty and cowardice with a comfortable majority.
How will Remainers react if there is an election and Boris wins a comfortable majority?
This is the most likely scenario. We will all have to suck it up and then watch what happens as Johnson delivers his "easily manageable" No Deal Brexit.
Leavers are going to be tearing down the doors at the polling stations after Brexit is delayed again.There is a lot of anger out there now.
Thank goodness that this afternoon the Chancellor provided additional funding for more jail places for those committing criminal damage at polling stations.
So how does agrifood resolve all the other markets, taxes and laws...
I understand there are three areas at stake:
- People - Customs - Live animals
People seems to be dealt with by CTA/Schengen opt out for Ireland. Customs can be done by making it a criminal act in each side's domestic law. Live animals os a thorny one but looks like Boris is playing for DUP to back down.
Sorry, but how does making cross-border trade without paying tariffs a criminal act protect the Good Friday Agreement?
There's no border posts.
It's not just a question of avoiding border posts.
How will Remainers react if there is an election and Boris wins a comfortable majority?
How will it be any different from what we are going through now?
We know it is a mistake and the Govt seem determined to make it. They sure as heck are not listening to Remainers.
If he gets a majority then he gets a majority. I will just note that Remainers, in general, are not the ones threatening violence, intimidation, deportations or civil disorder if we do not get our way...
“There is absolutely no appetite in the EU to throw Britain off the Brexit cliff edge,” said one EU diplomat. “If the UK parliament were to ask for an extension to prevent a no-deal outcome, it would be hard to see how the EU27 could refuse that.”
They'd probably give us unlimited extensions. They don't want us to leave, in case it encourages other members to do the same.
So how does agrifood resolve all the other markets, taxes and laws...
I understand there are three areas at stake:
- People - Customs - Live animals
People seems to be dealt with by CTA/Schengen opt out for Ireland. Customs can be done by making it a criminal act in each side's domestic law. Live animals os a thorny one but looks like Boris is playing for DUP to back down.
Sorry, but how does making cross-border trade without paying tariffs a criminal act protect the Good Friday Agreement?
you know little of beef farming
Beef farming isn’t an area I know much about. Dairy, however I do know a bit and it’s doomed without a fix
I wonder how long Brendan and his Revolutionary Communist Party pals will stick with Farage. I suspect Boris will soon be the new apple of their collective eye.
So how does agrifood resolve all the other markets, taxes and laws...
I understand there are three areas at stake:
- People - Customs - Live animals
People seems to be dealt with by CTA/Schengen opt out for Ireland. Customs can be done by making it a criminal act in each side's domestic law. Live animals os a thorny one but looks like Boris is playing for DUP to back down.
Sorry, but how does making cross-border trade without paying tariffs a criminal act protect the Good Friday Agreement?
There's no border posts.
It's not just a question of avoiding border posts.
You're right it is a question of looking for excuses to avoid Brexit.
“There is absolutely no appetite in the EU to throw Britain off the Brexit cliff edge,” said one EU diplomat. “If the UK parliament were to ask for an extension to prevent a no-deal outcome, it would be hard to see how the EU27 could refuse that.”
They'd probably give us unlimited extensions. They don't want us to leave, in case it encourages other members to do the same.
That's one point of view. However, there seems to be the persistance of another group of countries, as reported by the Finnish FM today, who perceive a continuing deferral as damaging to the EU. Cummings and his famous wargames will presumably have been readied for either.
“There is absolutely no appetite in the EU to throw Britain off the Brexit cliff edge,” said one EU diplomat. “If the UK parliament were to ask for an extension to prevent a no-deal outcome, it would be hard to see how the EU27 could refuse that.”
They'd probably give us unlimited extensions. They don't want us to leave, in case it encourages other members to do the same.
Of course they will give us unlimited extensions. It is better than no deal and we wont accept a deal.
How will Remainers react if there is an election and Boris wins a comfortable majority?
How will it be any different from what we are going through now?
We know it is a mistake and the Govt seem determined to make it. They sure as heck are not listening to Remainers.
If he gets a majority then he gets a majority. I will just note that Remainers, in general, are not the ones threatening violence, intimidation, deportations or civil disorder if we do not get our way...
+1 Given how the last few days have panned out. I am genuinely afraid of what will happen in the future. BJ is behaving more like a dictator than the leader of a parliamentary democracy. As someone who is disabled, will I be safe in a Johnson Britain? I say this in all seriousness...
The most interesting thing in the Commons tonight may be to see whether Boris gets a simple majority for an election. If he does, he may try to override the FTPA using that majority. (I know the Lords is a problem from his point of view). But if he can't even get a simple majority for an election, the whole idea is obviously dead in the water.
I mean, he'll get a majority in the sense that more MPs will vote for his election than against (Labour are abstaining). But I highly doubt he'll get 315 votes, or whatever the majority threshold is among voting MPs. Why would the 21 Tories now without the whip want an election?
Just had a very unpleasant experience. Was innocently listening to the calming tones of Sarah Montague at lunchtime, when I heard a repulsive blast from the past. That ginormous turd Michael Forsyth, who the voters of Stirling soundly dismissed in 1997, was on my bloody radio, splurging his usual lies, hatred and bile.
This is why the House of Lords has to go. Reptiles like Forsyth suck at the taxpayers’ teets for decades after losing elections. The vile serpent had the audacity to present himself as a champion of democracy.
A bit strong Stuart. I don't know Lord F but the feedback I've received is that he is a very courteous and extremely bright guy. Came from a generation of Tories influenced by the Manchester school of economists at St Andrews in the 70s. An interesting fellow and not to be dismissed in these kind of terms, however much you may disagree with him. He is also, unassailably, an authentic working-class Scot.
Words fail me.
A bit strong eh?
Clear that you were not in Scotland in the 80s and 90s.
Forsyth was utterly despised, throughout the nation. He managed to unite the (then dominant) Scottish Labour Party, Scottish Liberals, the SNP, half the Scottish Tory party, and the unaligned, against him. He was reviled more than Maggie. Why? Well, Maggie was English. She had an excuse. Forsyth didn’t.
Michael Forsyth is why devolution happened. He was the vital catalyst. Never again would Scots be mis-ruled as they had been under Forsyth.
And the wee bastard hasn’t changed one iota in 22 years.
The most interesting thing in the Commons tonight may be to see whether Boris gets a simple majority for an election. If he does, he may try to override the FTPA using that majority. (I know the Lords is a problem from his point of view). But if he can't even get a simple majority for an election, the whole idea is obviously dead in the water.
I mean, he'll get a majority in the sense that more MPs will vote for his election than against (Labour are abstaining). But I highly doubt he'll get 315 votes, or whatever the majority threshold is among voting MPs. Why would the 21 Tories now without the whip want an election?
How will Remainers react if there is an election and Boris wins a comfortable majority?
How will it be any different from what we are going through now?
We know it is a mistake and the Govt seem determined to make it. They sure as heck are not listening to Remainers.
If he gets a majority then he gets a majority. I will just note that Remainers, in general, are not the ones threatening violence, intimidation, deportations or civil disorder if we do not get our way...
+1 Given how the last few days have panned out. I am genuinely afraid of what will happen in the future. BJ is behaving more like a dictator than the leader of a parliamentary democracy. As someone who is disabled, will I be safe in a Johnson Britain? I say this in all seriousness...
If and when the Conservatives and Brexit party found themselves in opposition, Brendan O’Neill would be writing articles about how the British people didn’t deserve Brexit.
“There is absolutely no appetite in the EU to throw Britain off the Brexit cliff edge,” said one EU diplomat. “If the UK parliament were to ask for an extension to prevent a no-deal outcome, it would be hard to see how the EU27 could refuse that.”
They'd probably give us unlimited extensions. They don't want us to leave, in case it encourages other members to do the same.
No country is going to want to leave when they see what happens to us after we leave
How will Remainers react if there is an election and Boris wins a comfortable majority?
How will it be any different from what we are going through now?
We know it is a mistake and the Govt seem determined to make it. They sure as heck are not listening to Remainers.
If he gets a majority then he gets a majority. I will just note that Remainers, in general, are not the ones threatening violence, intimidation, deportations or civil disorder if we do not get our way...
You conveniently forget Philip Pullman suggesting that Boris should be hanged the other day. Can't think of anything more extreme. The fact is there are lunatics on both sides and if you don 't realise it you're probably one of them.
So how does agrifood resolve all the other markets, taxes and laws...
I understand there are three areas at stake:
- People - Customs - Live animals
People seems to be dealt with by CTA/Schengen opt out for Ireland. Customs can be done by making it a criminal act in each side's domestic law. Live animals os a thorny one but looks like Boris is playing for DUP to back down.
Sorry, but how does making cross-border trade without paying tariffs a criminal act protect the Good Friday Agreement?
There's no border posts.
At least you are beginning to understand the importance of border posts.
How will Remainers react if there is an election and Boris wins a comfortable majority?
This is the most likely scenario. We will all have to suck it up and then watch what happens as Johnson delivers his "easily manageable" No Deal Brexit.
Leavers are going to be tearing down the doors at the polling stations after Brexit is delayed again.There is a lot of anger out there now.
Thank goodness that this afternoon the Chancellor provided additional funding for more jail places for those committing criminal damage at polling stations.
If and when the Conservatives and Brexit party found themselves in opposition, Brendan O’Neill would be writing articles about how the British people didn’t deserve Brexit.
Brendan O'Neill is one of the ex-Living Marxism, now "Marxist progress"-cum-neoliberal crowd, is he not ? A very odd outfit.
The most interesting thing in the Commons tonight may be to see whether Boris gets a simple majority for an election. If he does, he may try to override the FTPA using that majority. (I know the Lords is a problem from his point of view). But if he can't even get a simple majority for an election, the whole idea is obviously dead in the water.
I mean, he'll get a majority in the sense that more MPs will vote for his election than against (Labour are abstaining). But I highly doubt he'll get 315 votes, or whatever the majority threshold is among voting MPs. Why would the 21 Tories now without the whip want an election?
Exactly, it does not make any sense. its one mistake after another! Still BJ makes people laugh
If and when the Conservatives and Brexit party found themselves in opposition, Brendan O’Neill would be writing articles about how the British people didn’t deserve Brexit.
How will Remainers react if there is an election and Boris wins a comfortable majority?
This is the most likely scenario. We will all have to suck it up and then watch what happens as Johnson delivers his "easily manageable" No Deal Brexit.
Leavers are going to be tearing down the doors at the polling stations after Brexit is delayed again.There is a lot of anger out there now.
Thank goodness that this afternoon the Chancellor provided additional funding for more jail places for those committing criminal damage at polling stations.
The most interesting thing in the Commons tonight may be to see whether Boris gets a simple majority for an election. If he does, he may try to override the FTPA using that majority. (I know the Lords is a problem from his point of view). But if he can't even get a simple majority for an election, the whole idea is obviously dead in the water.
I mean, he'll get a majority in the sense that more MPs will vote for his election than against (Labour are abstaining). But I highly doubt he'll get 315 votes, or whatever the majority threshold is among voting MPs. Why would the 21 Tories now without the whip want an election?
But the SNP do?
Even they have said they won't be voting for the thing tonight.
It's possible they're willing to vote for it after the No Deal Bill has been ratified next week, but I really doubt they would like the "optics" of being the only other party to side with a Tory PM (if they can convince Plaid Cymru and/or the Lib Dems to join them then it might be different).
So how does agrifood resolve all the other markets, taxes and laws...
I understand there are three areas at stake:
- People - Customs - Live animals
People seems to be dealt with by CTA/Schengen opt out for Ireland. Customs can be done by making it a criminal act in each side's domestic law. Live animals os a thorny one but looks like Boris is playing for DUP to back down.
Sorry, but how does making cross-border trade without paying tariffs a criminal act protect the Good Friday Agreement?
There's no border posts.
At least you are beginning to understand the importance of border posts.
I've always said there shouldn't be border posts though haven't I?
Have you even ONCE seen me say border posts owuld be a good idea? I've said all along border posts both could and should be avoided via other means like this.
“There is absolutely no appetite in the EU to throw Britain off the Brexit cliff edge,” said one EU diplomat. “If the UK parliament were to ask for an extension to prevent a no-deal outcome, it would be hard to see how the EU27 could refuse that.”
They'd probably give us unlimited extensions. They don't want us to leave, in case it encourages other members to do the same.
No. They want us to Leave on our terms and therefore for the UK to own the consequences. They do not want to be stuck with the charge that they caused any future issues because they are well aware that they would be used as the bogeyman by the UK.
“There is absolutely no appetite in the EU to throw Britain off the Brexit cliff edge,” said one EU diplomat. “If the UK parliament were to ask for an extension to prevent a no-deal outcome, it would be hard to see how the EU27 could refuse that.”
They'd probably give us unlimited extensions. They don't want us to leave, in case it encourages other members to do the same.
No country is going to want to leave when they see what happens to us after we leave
I don’t think the Libdems have too much to fear, politically, from an election. They just need to hold their nerve and commit to campaigning hard, everywhere, even in supposed Con/lab marginals.
Politics is piss funny at the moment. Literally. Had to work very hard not to see whilst driving up the M1 at lunchtime listening to Bozo make Jezbollah sound like a statesman.
The government are literally in office and not in power. By tonight they will have been compelled to do something they don't want to do and forced to remain in office when they want an election. Ordinarily this would be stupid, but as the clock is running down and there isnt time for an election OR consensus about an alternative government made up of the same MPs, here we are.
Question- now that the Father of the House is an Independent, would that make him more palatable as an interim PM before an election where he isn't standing and has no party?
“There is absolutely no appetite in the EU to throw Britain off the Brexit cliff edge,” said one EU diplomat. “If the UK parliament were to ask for an extension to prevent a no-deal outcome, it would be hard to see how the EU27 could refuse that.”
They'd probably give us unlimited extensions. They don't want us to leave, in case it encourages other members to do the same.
The length of extension matters. Too short and it forces the same situation again. Too long and it is seen as trying to cancel Brexit.
So how does agrifood resolve all the other markets, taxes and laws...
I understand there are three areas at stake:
- People - Customs - Live animals
People seems to be dealt with by CTA/Schengen opt out for Ireland. Customs can be done by making it a criminal act in each side's domestic law. Live animals os a thorny one but looks like Boris is playing for DUP to back down.
Sorry, but how does making cross-border trade without paying tariffs a criminal act protect the Good Friday Agreement?
you know little of beef farming
Relevance?
if you understood it you wouldnt be asking the question
I think the past 24 hours have been utterly devastating for the Conservatives. Worse than Black Wednesday by a significant factor.
The optics are truly awful. Starting with Johnson's bullshit speech outside Number 10 being drowned out by booing. Losing a phlanx of the most solidly Tory MPs you could imagine through your own childish intransigence. The utterly bollocks "rowing back from austerity", Lee crossing the floor, the much bigger defeat than expected and the body language of Rees Mogg. 100,000 signing up to vote in 24 hours- the *same 24 hours* as the Tory government imploded.
This is the inflection point when the Tories can't get it back.
I think the polls will be increasingly terrifying for Johnson- no one likes losers, and they particularly don't like entitled bastard losers.
I also think that tactical voting against the Tories will accelerate the losses they are going to make.
1997 may not be the low point for the Tories- this time I don't think that they can come back.
What utter crap, the latest poll gives a 10% Tory lead what clueless diehard Remainers like you cannot understand is the people have had enough, they are fed up with being patronised by the likes of you and by a Commons which refuses to respect their Leave vote which is why Boris will win the next general election and crush Corbyn Labour once and for all into the bargain
You're losing it. Your man turned out not to be the Messiah just a rather bumptious and unpleasant politician.
How will Remainers react if there is an election and Boris wins a comfortable majority?
How will it be any different from what we are going through now?
We know it is a mistake and the Govt seem determined to make it. They sure as heck are not listening to Remainers.
If he gets a majority then he gets a majority. I will just note that Remainers, in general, are not the ones threatening violence, intimidation, deportations or civil disorder if we do not get our way...
You conveniently forget Philip Pullman suggesting that Boris should be hanged the other day. Can't think of anything more extreme. The fact is there are lunatics on both sides and if you don 't realise it you're probably one of them.
Just had a very unpleasant experience. Was innocently listening to the calming tones of Sarah Montague at lunchtime, when I heard a repulsive blast from the past. That ginormous turd Michael Forsyth, who the voters of Stirling soundly dismissed in 1997, was on my bloody radio, splurging his usual lies, hatred and bile.
This is why the House of Lords has to go. Reptiles like Forsyth suck at the taxpayers’ teets for decades after losing elections. The vile serpent had the audacity to present himself as a champion of democracy.
A bit strong Stuart. I don't know Lord F but the feedback I've received is that he is a very courteous and extremely bright guy. Came from a generation of Tories influenced by the Manchester school of economists at St Andrews in the 70s. An interesting fellow and not to be dismissed in these kind of terms, however much you may disagree with him. He is also, unassailably, an authentic working-class Scot.
Words fail me.
A bit strong eh?
Clear that you were not in Scotland in the 80s and 90s.
Forsyth was utterly despised, throughout the nation. He managed to unite the (then dominant) Scottish Labour Party, Scottish Liberals, the SNP, half the Scottish Tory party, and the unaligned, against him. He was reviled more than Maggie. Why? Well, Maggie was English. She had an excuse. Forsyth didn’t.
Michael Forsyth is why devolution happened. He was the vital catalyst. Never again would Scots be mis-ruled as they had been under Forsyth.
And the wee bastard hasn’t changed one iota in 22 years.
There, that's a bit more measured. And he did bring back the Stone of Destiny.
How will Remainers react if there is an election and Boris wins a comfortable majority?
This is the most likely scenario. We will all have to suck it up and then watch what happens as Johnson delivers his "easily manageable" No Deal Brexit.
Leavers are going to be tearing down the doors at the polling stations after Brexit is delayed again.There is a lot of anger out there now.
Thank goodness that this afternoon the Chancellor provided additional funding for more jail places for those committing criminal damage at polling stations.
Huzzah for sensible policies for the modern age.
I didnt mean literally you dolt
Oh. Frayed nerves?
Not at all. Looking forward to the surprise Remainers are going to get when the little people they so despise and ignore get their say again.
Either you, the guardian or Carney is wrong. Or all of you. See my recent post
It depends what timescale you look at. Yes it's lost growth if you look far enough out, but to get there you have substantial downturn first.
Hahaha. I pwned the great Nabavi. All your base are belong to I. Etc
But it’s an understandable error. That is truly shit reporting by the Guardian. Making lost growth look like absolute shrinkage? TSK
You are quibbling over details. To people losing jobs because of it, they will not gave a d*mn which category the recession belongs to.
You don’t understand basic economics. There is a WORLD of difference between 5% shrinkage in absolute GDP, and a 5% opportunity cost in lost growth
If I lose my job because of it, why would I care which category it belongs in?
What difference would it make? I would still be unemployed.
Finally a remain voter is in the mindset of the people who voted Leave because of the mass immigration of cheap EU labour
Is the average EU migrant earning more or less than you, I wonder?
Me personally? It depends which year
But the pressure put on wages, job security & state services added to the rapid change in their neighbourhood demographic were the equivalent of a No Deal Brexit on the lowest paid British workers from 2004-2016, that's why they voted Leave, and the lack of negative impact on richer Brits was the reason they didn't/don't understand the problem with FOM
Except the highest Brexit votes were in areas of low EU immigration. The laces where most EU immigrants tend to settle voted Remain.
So how does agrifood resolve all the other markets, taxes and laws...
I understand there are three areas at stake:
- People - Customs - Live animals
People seems to be dealt with by CTA/Schengen opt out for Ireland. Customs can be done by making it a criminal act in each side's domestic law. Live animals os a thorny one but looks like Boris is playing for DUP to back down.
Sorry, but how does making cross-border trade without paying tariffs a criminal act protect the Good Friday Agreement?
you know little of beef farming
Relevance?
if you understood it you wouldnt be asking the question
We’re not talking about agriculture. If you understood you wouldn’t be talking about beef farming.
Unfortunately Nicola doesn't want to hang around until Labour's polls lead recovers.
That is indeed a significant consideration. The SNP is the joker in the pack here. Given the Scottish polls they must want an immediate election so long as they can dodge the accusation that in forcing one they are ensuring that the UK will leave on 31st October. With an early election they then (1) pick up swathes of seats and (2) even if the UK does leave they also think that Scotland would then be more likely to secede from the UK. Whatever the SNP may say publically about Brexit, they may even be quite happy to facilitate Brexit so long as they can escape responsibility for doing so.
Hence the SNP should be quite capable of voting for any bespoke government bill that sought to force a general election on a named date before 31st October and put aside the provisions of the FTPA in doing so. Whether we left would still depend on the outcome of the election. And if the Lords did reject it then there would be a Commons majority for telling the Lords to think again.
How will Remainers react if there is an election and Boris wins a comfortable majority?
How will it be any different from what we are going through now?
We know it is a mistake and the Govt seem determined to make it. They sure as heck are not listening to Remainers.
If he gets a majority then he gets a majority. I will just note that Remainers, in general, are not the ones threatening violence, intimidation, deportations or civil disorder if we do not get our way...
You conveniently forget Philip Pullman suggesting that Boris should be hanged the other day. Can't think of anything more extreme. The fact is there are lunatics on both sides and if you don 't realise it you're probably one of them.
So thinking of the next two or three days only, correct me if I’m wrong but election wise it seems to look like this:
- Boris wants an election, and we can assume his 289 loyal MPs (and the DUP) would vote for it.
- Corbyn might want an election, but many of his backbenchers don’t. He seems to be saying yes, once the Queen signs the Act. Many of his backbenchers say not until after 31 Oct. They will abstain tonight be who knows about Fri/Mon.
- The SNP will vote for one once the Queen signs the Act. Presumably because they stand to gain massively.
- The LibDem position is unclear. The might be amenable as they stand to gain.
- Presumably most independents would be against both on the Brexit grounds and because they’d lose their seats. Woodcock and similar might vote for it as a way of binning Corbyn.
Is that about right? That being the case a 15 Oct election looks like a 60% chance because of Corbyn, the SNP, and the one clause Bill route. But who knows?
Not sure the DUP will be pleased at all with a GE (and they may not support no deal when push comes to shove, despite being pro Brexit and against the possible deals).
Correct.
The DUP are not keen on fighting a surging Alliance.
How will Remainers react if there is an election and Boris wins a comfortable majority?
This is the most likely scenario. We will all have to suck it up and then watch what happens as Johnson delivers his "easily manageable" No Deal Brexit.
Leavers are going to be tearing down the doors at the polling stations after Brexit is delayed again.There is a lot of anger out there now.
Thank goodness that this afternoon the Chancellor provided additional funding for more jail places for those committing criminal damage at polling stations.
Huzzah for sensible policies for the modern age.
I didnt mean literally you dolt
Oh. Frayed nerves?
Not at all. Looking forward to the surprise Remainers are going to get when the little people they so despise and ignore get their say again.
Well, no one really knows what will happen if there's an election, but I'm sure it's a mistake to take the electorate for granted, even if you do view them as just "little people."
If Labour reject an election then for the first time ever I hope the unelected Lords succeed in blocking the law. The undemocratic charge rather fails when the opposition are literally rejecting an election.
So how does agrifood resolve all the other markets, taxes and laws...
I understand there are three areas at stake:
- People - Customs - Live animals
People seems to be dealt with by CTA/Schengen opt out for Ireland. Customs can be done by making it a criminal act in each side's domestic law. Live animals os a thorny one but looks like Boris is playing for DUP to back down.
Sorry, but how does making cross-border trade without paying tariffs a criminal act protect the Good Friday Agreement?
you know little of beef farming
Relevance?
if you understood it you wouldnt be asking the question
Why do you waste your time here? You have so much expertise in argiculture and manufacturing. The govt needs you.
Would it help if we obtained a large poster of a mustachioed Boris pointing at you and a "You govt needs you" slogan?
Just had a very unpleasant experience. Was innocently listening to the calming tones of Sarah Montague at lunchtime, when I heard a repulsive blast from the past. That ginormous turd Michael Forsyth, who the voters of Stirling soundly dismissed in 1997, was on my bloody radio, splurging his usual lies, hatred and bile.
This is why the House of Lords has to go. Reptiles like Forsyth suck at the taxpayers’ teets for decades after losing elections. The vile serpent had the audacity to present himself as a champion of democracy.
A bit strong Stuart. I don't know Lord F but the feedback I've received is that he is a very courteous and extremely bright guy. Came from a generation of Tories influenced by the Manchester school of economists at St Andrews in the 70s. An interesting fellow and not to be dismissed in these kind of terms, however much you may disagree with him. He is also, unassailably, an authentic working-class Scot.
Words fail me.
A bit strong eh?
Clear that you were not in Scotland in the 80s and 90s.
Forsyth was utterly despised, throughout the nation. He managed to unite the (then dominant) Scottish Labour Party, Scottish Liberals, the SNP, half the Scottish Tory party, and the unaligned, against him. He was reviled more than Maggie. Why? Well, Maggie was English. She had an excuse. Forsyth didn’t.
Michael Forsyth is why devolution happened. He was the vital catalyst. Never again would Scots be mis-ruled as they had been under Forsyth.
And the wee bastard hasn’t changed one iota in 22 years.
There, that's a bit more measured. And he did bring back the Stone of Destiny.
Oddly enough it was that very episode which made me suddenly realise how Scotland and Britain were diverging in their attitudes to national symbols of this kind. I was struck how little account was being taken by the wider populace, and it wasn't just because of the identity of the particular satrap making this generous gift to the Scots of what was their own to begin with. Yet it didn't stop the Scots from voting for devolution a few years later.
I have a memory of watching the film of the procession up the High Street, mostly in silence by a very thin crowd, and Mr Forsyth passing in solitary splendour, bekilted.
So how does agrifood resolve all the other markets, taxes and laws...
I understand there are three areas at stake:
- People - Customs - Live animals
People seems to be dealt with by CTA/Schengen opt out for Ireland. Customs can be done by making it a criminal act in each side's domestic law. Live animals os a thorny one but looks like Boris is playing for DUP to back down.
Sorry, but how does making cross-border trade without paying tariffs a criminal act protect the Good Friday Agreement?
you know little of beef farming
Beef farming isn’t an area I know much about. Dairy, however I do know a bit and it’s doomed without a fix
So's beef in ireland
the problems are the same supermarkets pushing down prices and processors squeezing farmers. The only difference is while HmG pretends its gives a shit Varadkar doesnt.
Just had a very unpleasant experience. Was innocently listening to the calming tones of Sarah Montague at lunchtime, when I heard a repulsive blast from the past. That ginormous turd Michael Forsyth, who the voters of Stirling soundly dismissed in 1997, was on my bloody radio, splurging his usual lies, hatred and bile.
This is why the House of Lords has to go. Reptiles like Forsyth suck at the taxpayers’ teets for decades after losing elections. The vile serpent had the audacity to present himself as a champion of democracy.
A bit strong Stuart. I don't know Lord F but the feedback I've received is that he is a very courteous and extremely bright guy. Came from a generation of Tories influenced by the Manchester school of economists at St Andrews in the 70s. An interesting fellow and not to be dismissed in these kind of terms, however much you may disagree with him. He is also, unassailably, an authentic working-class Scot.
Words fail me.
A bit strong eh?
Clear that you were not in Scotland in the 80s and 90s.
Forsyth was utterly despised, throughout the nation. He managed to unite the (then dominant) Scottish Labour Party, Scottish Liberals, the SNP, half the Scottish Tory party, and the unaligned, against him. He was reviled more than Maggie. Why? Well, Maggie was English. She had an excuse. Forsyth didn’t.
Michael Forsyth is why devolution happened. He was the vital catalyst. Never again would Scots be mis-ruled as they had been under Forsyth.
And the wee bastard hasn’t changed one iota in 22 years.
There, that's a bit more measured. And he did bring back the Stone of Destiny.
Fair doos. In a flippin Land Rover!! 😳
Shame he repatriated it to the wrong bloody burgh. Twat.
Couldn't disagree more. Plenty of countries make referendums a key part of their legislation and do it very well. And your two examples of failure are spurious.
In the case of the Scottish vote there is nothing problematic or inconsistent with having the SNP elected with one their policies being independence and then having that specific policy rejected by the electorate. They still have many other policies they can enact in Government. Moreover the alternative would be to say that the SNP should simply have declared independence without a referendum - something that at the time clearly had only minority support as we well know from the referendum itself.
As far as Brexit is concerned I would suggest many of those MPs now obstructing or trying to reverse Brexit would never have got elected in 2015 had they been honest and said they would try to reverse the referendum.
The problem is not referendums it is the MPs.
In the case of Brexit, (most) MPs are obviously to a very large extent to blame for this mess - if, as seems pretty clear, the majority of them thought leaving the EU a disaster not to be contemplated, then they should never have voted to hold the referendum in the first place - but it doesn't solve the central problem of trying to treat our representatives as delegates.
By voting contrary to what MPs were willing to stomach in a referendum, and then compounding the situation by voting in another contrarian Parliament, voters have created circumstances - and this isn't deliberate and isn't their fault, but it is what has come about nonetheless - in which continual corrosive damage to democracy is bound to result. We end up with a confused, dithering and impotent Parliament which contains a majority of members that wish either to comply with the instruction given in the referendum half-heartedly or not at all, and cannot agree on any resolution at all as a result. Meanwhile, a large chunk of the Leave electorate now feels insulted and robbed. It's madness.
In Scotland the situation is somewhat different. Voters have rejected independence in a plebiscite, but keep returning secessionist Parliaments - there is sufficient support for one thing but not quite enough for the other. The risk is that, therefore, both Scotland and the rest of the UK become stuck in a rut: as long as this stalemate exists, the Scottish Government will keep trying to engineer independence referendums and the rest of the UK will be under constant threat of dissolution, with no idea as to if or when it might happen. It's not exactly ideal...
But if you outlaw referendums the SNP would have a legitimate case fir simply declaring independence as soon as they were in power. Against the wishes of the majority.
What should happen is that referendums should be binding. MPs should not be able to reject the result.
What utter crap. Soames voted with the marxists and nationalists against his own party on a matter of confidence. He was told beforehand the consequences of doing so but continued nonetheless. Soames decided how to vote and owns the outturn.
Parliament comes back on Mon 14 Oct. Could Parliament then pass a Bill in time to force PM to get an extension on Sat 19 Oct?
Maybe, maybe not!!!
No
Presumably in that case the anti-No Deal majority in Parliament could still rescue the situation through the alternative means of VONCing Boris Johnson and installing an alternative PM (most likely Corbyn,) with an instruction to go and seek the A50 extension? If the EU27 want to grant it then they could call an emergency summit to deal with the situation on any date up to and including October 31st.
Nobody forced Soames to defy a three line whip on an issue of confidence.
Still not heard one person objecting to this confirm they'd have objected to seeing Cash or Redwood be thrown out if they'd voted against Maastricht on a confidence matter.
I think the past 24 hours have been utterly devastating for the Conservatives. Worse than Black Wednesday by a significant factor.
The optics are truly awful. Starting with Johnson's bullshit speech outside Number 10 being drowned out by booing. Losing a phlanx of the most solidly Tory MPs you could imagine through your own childish intransigence. The utterly bollocks "rowing back from austerity", Lee crossing the floor, the much bigger defeat than expected and the body language of Rees Mogg. 100,000 signing up to vote in 24 hours- the *same 24 hours* as the Tory government imploded.
This is the inflection point when the Tories can't get it back.
I think the polls will be increasingly terrifying for Johnson- no one likes losers, and they particularly don't like entitled bastard losers.
I also think that tactical voting against the Tories will accelerate the losses they are going to make.
1997 may not be the low point for the Tories- this time I don't think that they can come back.
What utter crap, the latest poll gives a 10% Tory lead what clueless diehard Remainers like you cannot understand is the people have had enough, they are fed up with being patronised by the likes of you and by a Commons which refuses to respect their Leave vote which is why Boris will win the next general election and crush Corbyn Labour once and for all into the bargain
You're losing it. Your man turned out not to be the Messiah just a rather bumptious and unpleasant politician.
Watch the polls this weekend .You may get a surprise .
So how does agrifood resolve all the other markets, taxes and laws...
I understand there are three areas at stake:
- People - Customs - Live animals
People seems to be dealt with by CTA/Schengen opt out for Ireland. Customs can be done by making it a criminal act in each side's domestic law. Live animals os a thorny one but looks like Boris is playing for DUP to back down.
Sorry, but how does making cross-border trade without paying tariffs a criminal act protect the Good Friday Agreement?
you know little of beef farming
Relevance?
if you understood it you wouldnt be asking the question
We’re not talking about agriculture. If you understood you wouldn’t be talking about beef farming.
If Labour reject an election then for the first time ever I hope the unelected Lords succeed in blocking the law. The undemocratic charge rather fails when the opposition are literally rejecting an election.
Of course, "literally rejecting an election" is nothing at all out of the ordinary, or we'd be having one every month!
Suspending parliament and frustrating the will of the Commons by filibustering n the Lords are somewhat rarer.
I'm surprised. Couldn't the Remainer majority simply vote for each person advancing a wrecking amendment not to be heard, and then move immediately to a vote? Or is it simply the case that there are so many amendments to be considered that the entire process couldn't possibly be completed within the available time?
Comments
What else can you do ?
Furthermore, the Conservatives amongst them have now given Johnson good reason to act against them. If Johnson was going to lose the Commons stage of the bill to stop "no deal", and he always was whatever he did, it was surely better for him to lose it by a bigger margin than a smaller one. The opposition to him from diehard Remainer Conservative MPs was always there but now 22 have been smoked out and have lost the whip. The opportunity will be there quite shortly to replace them with MPs who back Johnson's stance. The alternative might have been that only those MPs (such as Soames) who intended to stand down rebelled, sufficient for the bill still to pass but still leaving the likes of Hammond and Gauke in place after the next election.
https://www.ft.com/content/db716f7a-cf22-11e9-99a4-b5ded7a7fe3f?desktop=true
“There is absolutely no appetite in the EU to throw Britain off the Brexit cliff edge,” said one EU diplomat. “If the UK parliament were to ask for an extension to prevent a no-deal outcome, it would be hard to see how the EU27 could refuse that.”
As he has suspended parliament from next week.
Your simple majority would require the Lords to vote for it too, which they would be in their right not to do if the simple majority were being used to dodge the supermajority. (Though I'd back repeal of the FTPA anyway).
The chance of a deal is better if Boris wins a decent majority and an extension has been agreed before the election than it would have been without an election.
Also if we are going to actually no deal it is better with a govt majority than a minority, and it is better with a mandate than no mandate. The voters, the PM and his party will have to own it and its outcomes.
So in terms of Brexit outcomes it would be no worse than we were a month ago. However the disappointment would be that the country rewards recklessness, dishonesty, disloyalty and cowardice with a comfortable majority.
Huzzah for sensible policies for the modern age.
We know it is a mistake and the Govt seem determined to make it. They sure as heck are not listening to Remainers.
If he gets a majority then he gets a majority. I will just note that Remainers, in general, are not the ones threatening violence, intimidation, deportations or civil disorder if we do not get our way...
That surely, makes it his party?
That the average person is deeply average.
And like you I expect him to be proved correct.
But one lives in hope. One has to. What is the alternative?
A bit strong eh?
Clear that you were not in Scotland in the 80s and 90s.
Forsyth was utterly despised, throughout the nation. He managed to unite the (then dominant) Scottish Labour Party, Scottish Liberals, the SNP, half the Scottish Tory party, and the unaligned, against him. He was reviled more than Maggie. Why? Well, Maggie was English. She had an excuse. Forsyth didn’t.
Michael Forsyth is why devolution happened. He was the vital catalyst. Never again would Scots be mis-ruled as they had been under Forsyth.
And the wee bastard hasn’t changed one iota in 22 years.
You cannot get it back and Johnson will not get his election before Oct 31st. He will stay a lame duck.
It's possible they're willing to vote for it after the No Deal Bill has been ratified next week, but I really doubt they would like the "optics" of being the only other party to side with a Tory PM (if they can convince Plaid Cymru and/or the Lib Dems to join them then it might be different).
Have you even ONCE seen me say border posts owuld be a good idea? I've said all along border posts both could and should be avoided via other means like this.
Just a shame they went for Swinson over Dave.
Politics is piss funny at the moment. Literally. Had to work very hard not to see whilst driving up the M1 at lunchtime listening to Bozo make Jezbollah sound like a statesman.
The government are literally in office and not in power. By tonight they will have been compelled to do something they don't want to do and forced to remain in office when they want an election. Ordinarily this would be stupid, but as the clock is running down and there isnt time for an election OR consensus about an alternative government made up of the same MPs, here we are.
Question- now that the Father of the House is an Independent, would that make him more palatable as an interim PM before an election where he isn't standing and has no party?
Regardless of the rights, wrongs and potential impact of Brexit the wider perception does appear to be precisely what is happening.
There's a Betfair market on it - Benn Bill to get Royal Assent in 2019:
Yes 1.4 / 1.5
No 3.0 / 3.75
Parliament comes back on Mon 14 Oct. Could Parliament then pass a Bill in time to force PM to get an extension on Sat 19 Oct?
Maybe, maybe not!!!
Hence the SNP should be quite capable of voting for any bespoke government bill that sought to force a general election on a named date before 31st October and put aside the provisions of the FTPA in doing so. Whether we left would still depend on the outcome of the election. And if the Lords did reject it then there would be a Commons majority for telling the Lords to think again.
The DUP are not keen on fighting a surging Alliance.
Would it help if we obtained a large poster of a mustachioed Boris pointing at you and a "You govt needs you" slogan?
I have a memory of watching the film of the procession up the High Street, mostly in silence by a very thin crowd, and Mr Forsyth passing in solitary splendour, bekilted.
the problems are the same supermarkets pushing down prices and processors squeezing farmers. The only difference is while HmG pretends its gives a shit Varadkar doesnt.
Shame he repatriated it to the wrong bloody burgh. Twat.
What should happen is that referendums should be binding. MPs should not be able to reject the result.
Sorry my mistake, I misread it as the 14th September
Still not heard one person objecting to this confirm they'd have objected to seeing Cash or Redwood be thrown out if they'd voted against Maastricht on a confidence matter.
Suspending parliament and frustrating the will of the Commons by filibustering n the Lords are somewhat rarer.