This latest defeat is particularly embarrassing for the government. Like Barnesian I thought it would have failed, it did seem a bit overeachy at casual glance
Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings are not generating goodwill.
This latest defeat is particularly embarrassing for the government. Like Barnesian I thought it would have failed, it did seem a bit overeachy at casual glance
I would've been in favour of the govt being forced to publish the "No Deal" document, but the stuff about making people publish their text messages seems a bit odd.
This latest defeat is particularly embarrassing for the government. Like Barnesian I thought it would have failed, it did seem a bit overeachy at casual glance
A significant number of members didn't vote - not sure whether they were abstentions or something else.
I am really not a fan of the SO24 nonsense. Emergency debates are all well and good - and have their place. But substantive motions that have real impact need time to be discussed - not rushed through.
It is Bercow who has allowed this change. And it really isn't for the better.
This is a fishing expedition - and not a healthy one.
The Grieve Humble Address is very broadly drawn and many of Gove's objections have some merit. However we are in an epochal constitutional struggle between executive and legislature. Mill's harm test is passed in my view. I've no problem with the Government coming back with with a redacted set of communications and publishing the legal advice justifying those redactions. I think the Commons got it right re putting the ball in the Government's court.
It is the obvious way through. Also let them have the option to reverse it with another referendum at any point.
The problem, from one angle, is that while you can defend a referendum on a particular aspect of the deal relating to that area without requiring a re-run of the original referendum, it is far far easier message to say 'if they get to vote, why can't the rest of us?'
The Grieve Humble Address is very broadly drawn and many of Gove's objections have some merit. However we are in an epochal constitutional struggle between executive and legislature. Mill's harm test is passed in my view. I've no problem with the Government coming back with with a redacted set of communications and publishing the legal advice justifying those redactions. I think the Commons got it right re putting the ball in the Government's court.
The Commons didn't have time to consider this question properly. SO24 debates were never intended for this sort of motion.
Something as serious as opening up advice in this way needed far more discussion with input, research and real debate. Not a 2 hour Monday afternoon wheeze on the part of Grieve.
This latest defeat is particularly embarrassing for the government. Like Barnesian I thought it would have failed, it did seem a bit overeachy at casual glance
A significant number of members didn't vote - not sure whether they were abstentions or something else.
I am really not a fan of the SO24 nonsense. Emergency debates are all well and good - and have their place. But substantive motions that have real impact need time to be discussed - not rushed through.
It is Bercow who has allowed this change. And it really isn't for the better.
This is a fishing expedition - and not a healthy one.
One does wonder what could be forced through in a rush which is not justified (not that everyone agrees the current stuff has been justified)
This latest defeat is particularly embarrassing for the government. Like Barnesian I thought it would have failed, it did seem a bit overeachy at casual glance
A significant number of members didn't vote - not sure whether they were abstentions or something else.
I am really not a fan of the SO24 nonsense. Emergency debates are all well and good - and have their place. But substantive motions that have real impact need time to be discussed - not rushed through.
It is Bercow who has allowed this change. And it really isn't for the better.
This is a fishing expedition - and not a healthy one.
1) the government draws its power from the legislature. If it has lost the legislature, that body should be given every opportunity to have its say.
2) it’s a bit more than a fishing expedition. The whole manoeuvre stinks to high heaven.
3) the government really cannot complain about rush on this occasion.
This latest defeat is particularly embarrassing for the government. Like Barnesian I thought it would have failed, it did seem a bit overeachy at casual glance
A significant number of members didn't vote - not sure whether they were abstentions or something else.
I am really not a fan of the SO24 nonsense. Emergency debates are all well and good - and have their place. But substantive motions that have real impact need time to be discussed - not rushed through.
It is Bercow who has allowed this change. And it really isn't for the better.
This is a fishing expedition - and not a healthy one.
1) the government draws its power from the legislature. If it has lost the legislature, that body should be given every opportunity to have its say.
2) it’s a bit more than a fishing expedition. The whole manoeuvre stinks to high heaven.
3) the government really cannot complain about rush on this occasion.
If it has lost the legislature it should be replaced as a government. The refusal to appoint another government or hold an election is a ridiculous situation caused by the terribly written FTPA.
The Grieve Humble Address is very broadly drawn and many of Gove's objections have some merit. However we are in an epochal constitutional struggle between executive and legislature. Mill's harm test is passed in my view. I've no problem with the Government coming back with with a redacted set of communications and publishing the legal advice justifying those redactions. I think the Commons got it right re putting the ball in the Government's court.
The Commons didn't have time to consider this question properly. SO24 debates were never intended for this sort of motion.
Something as serious as opening up advice in this way needed far more discussion with input, research and real debate. Not a 2 hour Monday afternoon wheeze on the part of Grieve.
Indeed. But parliament is being prorouged tonight for the longest period since WW2. If one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter then one man's abuse of proceedure is another man's check and balance.
Considering his ancestor led the Tory Party to the worst defeat and lowest voteshare in its history in 1832 not sure that is too bad news
Losing Churchill's and Wellington's descendants in one week is not a good tory look. I imagine the current D of Marl is not a working peer, so he won't be getting the full set.
The government claimed the prorogation was for a queens speech, if there have been discussions that show that this was not true then they should be in the public domain. If anything shines some light on the impact of no deal brexit is available it should be for everybody to see.
This latest defeat is particularly embarrassing for the government. Like Barnesian I thought it would have failed, it did seem a bit overeachy at casual glance
A significant number of members didn't vote - not sure whether they were abstentions or something else.
I am really not a fan of the SO24 nonsense. Emergency debates are all well and good - and have their place. But substantive motions that have real impact need time to be discussed - not rushed through.
It is Bercow who has allowed this change. And it really isn't for the better.
This is a fishing expedition - and not a healthy one.
1) the government draws its power from the legislature. If it has lost the legislature, that body should be given every opportunity to have its say.
2) it’s a bit more than a fishing expedition. The whole manoeuvre stinks to high heaven.
3) the government really cannot complain about rush on this occasion.
If it has lost the legislature it should be replaced as a government. The refusal to appoint another government or hold an election is a ridiculous situation caused by the terribly written FTPA.
I completely disagree. Eventually even the dimmest politicians will appreciate that they need to build stable majorities before forming governments. If that means they have to compromise more, well that’s not the worst thing in the world.
A a legal and post legislative referendum on a NI backstop will take some time. It would be Spring at the earliest. So much for Boris' Do or Die 31/10 deadline.
A a legal and post legislative referendum on a NI backstop will take some time. It would be Spring at the earliest. So much for Boris' Do or Die 31/10 deadline.
It won't happen unless Boris wins a majority anyway, the DUP would vote against it as would diehard Remainer Tory MPs even if all the ERG voted for it and not enough Labour MPs would support it
This latest defeat is particularly embarrassing for the government. Like Barnesian I thought it would have failed, it did seem a bit overeachy at casual glance
A significant number of members didn't vote - not sure whether they were abstentions or something else.
I am really not a fan of the SO24 nonsense. Emergency debates are all well and good - and have their place. But substantive motions that have real impact need time to be discussed - not rushed through.
It is Bercow who has allowed this change. And it really isn't for the better.
This is a fishing expedition - and not a healthy one.
1) the government draws its power from the legislature. If it has lost the legislature, that body should be given every opportunity to have its say.
2) it’s a bit more than a fishing expedition. The whole manoeuvre stinks to high heaven.
3) the government really cannot complain about rush on this occasion.
If it has lost the legislature it should be replaced as a government. The refusal to appoint another government or hold an election is a ridiculous situation caused by the terribly written FTPA.
I completely disagree. Eventually even the dimmest politicians will appreciate that they need to build stable majorities before forming governments. If that means they have to compromise more, well that’s not the worst thing in the world.
I completely support the concept of compromise and we need a lot more of it. But it is a ridiculous situation when we are in a situation where the public can not tell who is running the show. It clearly is not either the PM or the LotO. Who is writing these bills and determining the direction of the country? How can the public vote them out if they don't know who they are? It is very undemocratic this situation.
Grieve's target is the Supreme Court hearing penciled in to begin on 17/9/19. Whether you agree with him or not everything he is asking for is relevent to that case.
Good - time for the cabinet to act and if necessary take Boris down
Boris was literally only just democratically elected.
If any of the cabinet don't like it they should go.
He needs a deal, take this or resign
It will not get through now, the DUP would vote against it, as would Grieve, Gyimah, Greening etc even if every other elected Tory MP did and not enough Labour MPs would vote for it either.
As I said only a Tory majority would make it possible
He is not boris he is Johnson unless you use Jeremy Jo Ian etc stop giving him an image of cuddly that he’s just doesn’t deserve.
No matter how many times people tell me that calling him Boris gives him a cuddly image, or someone benefits him, it never stops sounding preposterous to me. Is there any basis to this assumption that because people are familiar with him as 'Boris' that he derives a benefit from that? He seems to have no problem drawing outright hatred from political opponents and derision from many on his own side. The repeated complaints about the name issue comes across as a bit paranoid to me.
2017 Tory voters though give Boris huge +43% rating
How much lower by the end of the month though?
The longer it goes the worse Tory ratings will get. It’s like the German tactics from WW1 get victory in a month or we are in trouble.
Makes a welcome change from the WWII references....
The game plan had to be strong and stable in one hand, love bombs in the other, secure early election win or else the fires now started will burn them. Boris government didn’t drip feed magicmoneytree spending announcements hard to imagine what was hold any back for a manifesto.
Is the window for an election receding? Can we realistically have GE in December or January (when this terrible weather bomb predicted?). Or even later November or early Feb?
In which case like the fluid first month of WW1 when Germany had to reach Paris, what follows for Boris is months without an election. And following the trench warfare?
The being made to look powerless by parliament isn’t helping his leadership image at all. Also, for all the talk of the Labour Party taken over by extremists who will deselect moderate MPs to replace with one of their own, it’s the conservatives actually doing this, on a scale worthy of mention in history books.
All opinion poll is distorted by a brexit prism, onefact we know failure to deliver or any sniff of a compromise deal transfers votes from con column to brexitparty.
Good - time for the cabinet to act and if necessary take Boris down
Boris was literally only just democratically elected.
If any of the cabinet don't like it they should go.
He needs a deal, take this or resign
It will not get through now, the DUP would vote against it, as would Grieve, Gyimah, Greening etc even if every other elected Tory MP did and not enough Labour MPs would vote for it either.
As I said only a Tory majority would make it possible
2017 Tory voters though give Boris huge +43% rating
How much lower by the end of the month though?
The longer it goes the worse Tory ratings will get. It’s like the German tactics from WW1 get victory in a month or we are in trouble.
Makes a welcome change from the WWII references....
The game plan had to be strong and stable in one hand, love bombs in the other, secure early election win or else the fires now started will burn them. Boris government didn’t drip feed magicmoneytree spending announcements hard to imagine what was hold any back for a manifesto.
Is the window for an election receding? Can we realistically have GE in December or January (when this terrible weather bomb predicted?). Or even later November or early Feb?
In which case like the fluid first month of WW1 when Germany had to reach Paris, what follows for Boris is months without an election. And following the trench warfare?
The being made to look powerless by parliament isn’t helping his leadership image at all. Also, for all the talk of the Labour Party taken over by extremists who will deselect moderate MPs to replace with one of their own, it’s the conservatives actually doing this, on a scale worthy of mention in history books.
All opinion poll is distorted by a brexit prism, onefact we know failure to deliver or any sniff of a compromise deal transfers votes from con column to brexitparty.
Time to start betting on a change of government.
That’s bollocks. All the evidence says the public really don’t want no deal, and will happily accept a compromise.
He is not boris he is Johnson unless you use Jeremy Jo Ian etc stop giving him an image of cuddly that he’s just doesn’t deserve.
No matter how many times people tell me that calling him Boris gives him a cuddly image, or someone benefits him, it never stops sounding preposterous to me. Is there any basis to this assumption that because people are familiar with him as 'Boris' that he derives a benefit from that? He seems to have no problem drawing outright hatred from political opponents and derision from many on his own side. The repeated complaints about the name issue comes across as a bit paranoid to me.
Yeah, I mean Hillary Clinton was often referred to even by Republican politicians as "Hillary", but I'm not sure she was seen as a cuddly figure...
So assuming there is no GE voted for tonight, the Queens Speech on 14th Oct is certain to be voted down. Will HMQ turn up in such circumstances? I remember after the 2017 GE there was some doubt until it was clear the DUP has agreed to C&S
Good - time for the cabinet to act and if necessary take Boris down
I think this is where we’ll get to. But I still think an MV on that deal would be defeated. The ERG nutters will still vote against (because whatever they say they’ll vote against any deal), Corbyn will whip against (because this is not about doing anything other than causing maximum chaos in government) as will the LDs and SNP who are opposed to anything Brexit flavoured. Then there’s the Tory MPs who will say it’s doing the thing “no prime minister could ever do” to quote Boris’ illustrious predecessor, and creating a border in the Irish Sea. Oh and the DUP won’t like it either...
And how does that get through the Commons? It's not about a deal anymore, it's about whether Labour or the Tories think they can win an election after an extension, there's no incentive to pass anything as it would let the other off the hook.
Next GE - Wimbledon (Con Maj 5,622, Stephen Hammond MP)
Con 4/7 LD 5/4 Lab 25/1
(Shadsy)
My model gives
Con 18072 Lab 13558 LD 11207 BXP 6582
Lab could win if LDs lend them their votes in large numbers but it's a big stretch.
Lab at 25/1 might be worth a punt. Nah on second thoughts.
More likely labour vote goes to the Lib Dem
In 2017, Labour got 18324 votes and LibDems got 7472. That's one hell of a squeeze for the LibDems to pull off. Having said that, LibDems did just come 2nd in Wimbledon back in 2010.
And how does that get through the Commons? It's not about a deal anymore, it's about whether Labour or the Tories think they can win an election after an extension, there's no incentive to pass anything as it would let the other off the hook.
Exactly. Nothing will pass now. Both sides think they are about to win an election.
Considering his ancestor led the Tory Party to the worst defeat and lowest voteshare in its history in 1832 not sure that is too bad news
Bit harsh to hold that against him!
Well he is only in the Lords mainly because of who his ancestor was anyway, Wellington was a brilliant general but a crap politician.
The Tories got an even worse voteshare than 1997 under his leadership in 1832
And good to see you dissing the hereditary principle.
I trust this extends to the Head of State.
I did not say he could not be in the Lords along with the few remaining hereditary peers, just that like the royals he holds his family history on his shoulders as a hereditary peer.
He is there by ancestry not by personal merit as such
He is not boris he is Johnson unless you use Jeremy Jo Ian etc stop giving him an image of cuddly that he’s just doesn’t deserve.
No matter how many times people tell me that calling him Boris gives him a cuddly image, or someone benefits him, it never stops sounding preposterous to me. Is there any basis to this assumption that because people are familiar with him as 'Boris' that he derives a benefit from that? He seems to have no problem drawing outright hatred from political opponents and derision from many on his own side. The repeated complaints about the name issue comes across as a bit paranoid to me.
Yeah, I mean Hillary Clinton was often referred to even by Republican politicians as "Hillary", but I'm not sure she was seen as a cuddly figure...
And how does that get through the Commons? It's not about a deal anymore, it's about whether Labour or the Tories think they can win an election after an extension, there's no incentive to pass anything as it would let the other off the hook.
Its 'Kinnocks' deal sponsored by Stephen Kinnock, Rory Stewart, Norman Lamb and others plus the NI issue.
Many say this will not work but there are upwards of 30 plus labour mps supporting this, add in moderate conservative and independent conservatives and others and you may be surprised how close this could come to passing
And under the no deal act it has to come back to the house
Considering his ancestor led the Tory Party to the worst defeat and lowest voteshare in its history in 1832 not sure that is too bad news
Bit harsh to hold that against him!
Well he is only in the Lords mainly because of who his ancestor was anyway, Wellington was a brilliant general but a crap politician.
The Tories got an even worse voteshare than 1997 under his leadership in 1832
Did one of your ancestors advise him to bugger off and join the Whigs?
The 1832 Wellington was a proper Tory not a fake Tory liberal Whig like Peel but other proper Tory leaders in the 19th century like Pitt, Disraeli and Salisbury were far more successful Tory leaders than he was
Considering his ancestor led the Tory Party to the worst defeat and lowest voteshare in its history in 1832 not sure that is too bad news
Bit harsh to hold that against him!
Well he is only in the Lords mainly because of who his ancestor was anyway, Wellington was a brilliant general but a crap politician.
The Tories got an even worse voteshare than 1997 under his leadership in 1832
Did one of your ancestors advise him to bugger off and join the Whigs?
The 1832 Wellington was a proper Tory not a fake Tory liberal Whig like Peel but other proper Tory leaders in the 19th century like Pitt, Disraeli and Salisbury were far more successful Tory leaders than he was
Considering his ancestor led the Tory Party to the worst defeat and lowest voteshare in its history in 1832 not sure that is too bad news
Bit harsh to hold that against him!
Well he is only in the Lords mainly because of who his ancestor was anyway, Wellington was a brilliant general but a crap politician.
The Tories got an even worse voteshare than 1997 under his leadership in 1832
And good to see you dissing the hereditary principle.
I trust this extends to the Head of State.
I did not say he could not be in the Lords along with the few remaining hereditary peers, just that like the royals he holds his family history on his shoulders as a hereditary peer.
He is there by ancestry not by personal merit as such
So just like the queen then. No personal merit for the office they hold.
He is not boris he is Johnson unless you use Jeremy Jo Ian etc stop giving him an image of cuddly that he’s just doesn’t deserve.
Problem is he is 'Boris' to most everyone and avoiding that is pointless
Even his family call him Al he is Johnson or ****
But the public call him Boris. It does seem almost childish to try to call him somrthing else
And if you follow my posts I am no supporter of 'Boris'
That’s the problem he is Johnson alexander boris de f*** knows Johnson not some cuddly bear called boris.
You're not making any sense. Who the heck thinks he is some cuddly bear called Boris? He's an arse called Boris, why do you think people are liking him more because they call him Boris?
Next GE - Wimbledon (Con Maj 5,622, Stephen Hammond MP)
Con 4/7 LD 5/4 Lab 25/1
(Shadsy)
My model gives
Con 18072 Lab 13558 LD 11207 BXP 6582
Lab could win if LDs lend them their votes in large numbers but it's a big stretch.
Lab at 25/1 might be worth a punt. Nah on second thoughts.
More likely labour vote goes to the Lib Dem
In 2017, Labour got 18324 votes and LibDems got 7472. That's one hell of a squeeze for the LibDems to pull off. Having said that, LibDems did just come 2nd in Wimbledon back in 2010.
The seat was also Labour-held 1997 - 2005.Voters are likely to remember that.
He is not boris he is Johnson unless you use Jeremy Jo Ian etc stop giving him an image of cuddly that he’s just doesn’t deserve.
Problem is he is 'Boris' to most everyone and avoiding that is pointless
Even his family call him Al he is Johnson or ****
But the public call him Boris. It does seem almost childish to try to call him somrthing else
And if you follow my posts I am no supporter of 'Boris'
That’s the problem he is Johnson alexander boris de f*** knows Johnson not some cuddly bear called boris.
You're not making any sense. Who the heck thinks he is some cuddly bear called Boris? He's an arse called Boris, why do you think people are liking him more because they call him Boris?
Ok I’ll accept from now on that he is an arse called boris.
2017 Tory voters though give Boris huge +43% rating
How much lower by the end of the month though?
The longer it goes the worse Tory ratings will get. It’s like the German tactics from WW1 get victory in a month or we are in trouble.
Makes a welcome change from the WWII references....
The game plan had to be strong and stable in one hand, love bombs in the other, secure early election win or else the fires now started will burn them. Boris government didn’t drip feed magicmoneytree spending announcements hard to imagine what was hold any back for a manifesto.
Is the window for an election receding? Can we realistically have GE in December or January (when this terrible weather bomb predicted?). Or even later November or early Feb?
In which case like the fluid first month of WW1 when Germany had to reach Paris, what follows for Boris is months without an election. And following the trench warfare?
The being made to look powerless by parliament isn’t helping his leadership image at all. Also, for all the talk of the Labour Party taken over by extremists who will deselect moderate MPs to replace with one of their own, it’s the conservatives actually doing this, on a scale worthy of mention in history books.
All opinion poll is distorted by a brexit prism, onefact we know failure to deliver or any sniff of a compromise deal transfers votes from con column to brexitparty.
Time to start betting on a change of government.
That’s bollocks. All the evidence says the public really don’t want no deal, and will happily accept a compromise.
But the impact on the Conservative Party? Does anyone care? 😕
incessant spin from HY is robust denial to the true road they are on.
Conservatives are being deselected and thrown out on basis of voting remain and fearing no deal. This is their only “crime”
It’s a huge moment in looking at the slow decline of the Conservative Party over the last 30 years (no decent majority since eighty-seven) The road they are on is being disguised by the opiate of brexit that’s in the system. As your short post actually proves.
Liberal Democrats just stated they’d go straight for revocation in a deadline emergency.
Good for them. Another clear policy
Yes, but they can have a clear policy that is not so divisive. they could say, we'll accept the referendum so we think that EFTA will satisfy it. unfortunately, there is no-one willing to accept compromise on this issue anymore.
Comments
I am really not a fan of the SO24 nonsense. Emergency debates are all well and good - and have their place. But substantive motions that have real impact need time to be discussed - not rushed through.
It is Bercow who has allowed this change. And it really isn't for the better.
This is a fishing expedition - and not a healthy one.
Something as serious as opening up advice in this way needed far more discussion with input, research and real debate. Not a 2 hour Monday afternoon wheeze on the part of Grieve.
Con 22,382
BXP 8,325
LD 5,514
Lab 5,099
Not great odds but the 1/8 on the Tories looks value to me.
2) it’s a bit more than a fishing expedition. The whole manoeuvre stinks to high heaven.
3) the government really cannot complain about rush on this occasion.
https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1171103089929199619?s=21
Surely if that goes ahead then if there's no deal we just leave by revoking the 1972 Act and leave that way?
Or does Parliament not get prorogued yet now?
Con 18072
Lab 13558
LD 11207
BXP 6582
Lab could win if LDs lend them their votes in large numbers but it's a big stretch.
Lab at 25/1 might be worth a punt. Nah on second thoughts.
If any of the cabinet don't like it they should go.
Bit harsh to hold that against him!
As I said only a Tory majority would make it possible
The Tories got an even worse voteshare than 1997 under his leadership in 1832
And if you follow my posts I am no supporter of 'Boris'
The huge irony here is that, if Boris accept this coup, and the deal then passes, he will be the hero of the day. By delivering a decent Brexit.
He will then romp home to a big election win.
Is the window for an election receding? Can we realistically have GE in December or January (when this terrible weather bomb predicted?). Or even later November or early Feb?
In which case like the fluid first month of WW1 when Germany had to reach Paris, what follows for Boris is months without an election. And following the trench warfare?
The being made to look powerless by parliament isn’t helping his leadership image at all. Also, for all the talk of the Labour Party taken over by extremists who will deselect moderate MPs to replace with one of their own, it’s the conservatives actually doing this, on a scale worthy of mention in history books.
All opinion poll is distorted by a brexit prism, onefact we know failure to deliver or any sniff of a compromise deal transfers votes from con column to brexitparty.
Time to start betting on a change of government.
...by letting Corbyn's motion go through unopposed.
I'll get my coat.
https://twitter.com/whale_alert/status/1169815776733220866?s=21
I trust this extends to the Head of State.
He is there by ancestry not by personal merit as such
Many say this will not work but there are upwards of 30 plus labour mps supporting this, add in moderate conservative and independent conservatives and others and you may be surprised how close this could come to passing
And under the no deal act it has to come back to the house
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/09/09/john-bercow-resignation-statement-speaker-warns-degrade-parliament/
Sorry sweet cheeks in the eyes of the public Parliament is already degraded to such a point it can't get any lower.
If someone burned the whole place down right now I'd shed no tears for it.
incessant spin from HY is robust denial to the true road they are on.
Conservatives are being deselected and thrown out on basis of voting remain and fearing no deal. This is their only “crime”
It’s a huge moment in looking at the slow decline of the Conservative Party over the last 30 years (no decent majority since eighty-seven) The road they are on is being disguised by the opiate of brexit that’s in the system. As your short post actually proves.
You’re a self declared revolutionary anarchist.