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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Your regular reminder that the wording and format of polling q

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited September 10 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Your regular reminder that the wording and format of polling questions can influence the outcome

This is a textbook example of acquiescence bias: we like to sound agreeable and say "yes" to things. A simple way to avoid it in surveys is to present respondents with the two statements and ask them which one is closer to your position. pic.twitter.com/fRo487uw6l

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 77,123
    edited September 10
    First? 🤣
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,004

    In any future Independence referendum the Unionists should ensure the question on the ballot paper is ‘Should Scotland remain a member of the United Kingdom?’

    Not Remain. Stay.
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 698
    I'd prefer. Should the Scots just piss off then the poor English don't have to listen to them whining any more?

  • If Leavers are so confident they are still in the majority, why are they so frit by a second referendum?

    Are they worried they may actually lose?
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 7,863
    Lots of people on the previous thread confident Boris is going to get a deal ratified in time for Oct 31st.

    Even if, by some miracle, he did get a deal, and he won the "meaningful vote" in the Commons on the first day back on 14th Oct - there'd still be a TON of legislation that would need to be passed (not least by the Lords). Would it be possible by the 31st?
  • True or false:

    "The more time Sunil spends in Scotland traversing the ScotRail network, the more Remainery he becomes."
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 15,940
    During my now long-ago working life I went on a couple of courses for writing Multiple Choice Questions. Interesting and challenging.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 30,520

    In any future Independence referendum the Unionists should ensure the question on the ballot paper is ‘Should Scotland remain a member of the United Kingdom?’

    The UK doesn’t have members. It just is.

  • Danny565 said:

    Lots of people on the previous thread confident Boris is going to get a deal ratified in time for Oct 31st.

    Even if, by some miracle, he did get a deal, and he won the "meaningful vote" in the Commons on the first day back on 14th Oct - there'd still be a TON of legislation that would need to be passed (not least by the Lords). Would it be possible by the 31st?

    No, there's not enough time to pass any of the required No Deal legislation before the 31st of October either.

    This is going to be another bonanza for the legal profession.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,626


    If Leavers are so confident they are still in the majority, why are they so frit by a second referendum?

    Are they worried they may actually lose?

    When leave won it would be “best of 5”
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 4,323
    It'd be difficult for both sides to change the 2014 wording, which was approved by the Electoral Commission and has remained a part of Scottish politics ever since. Just think of the Yes marches - but also the Roth Davidson No to Indyref2 Party.

    .
  • TGOHF said:


    If Leavers are so confident they are still in the majority, why are they so frit by a second referendum?

    Are they worried they may actually lose?

    When leave won it would be “best of 5”
    Right now it is one all on plebiscites on this topic.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 4,323

    True or false:

    "The more time Sunil spends in Scotland traversing the ScotRail network, the more Remainery he becomes."

    Like the policeman and his bicycle in Flann O'Brien's novel? Got to Georgemas and Tweedbank yet?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 30,520
    FPT
    algarkirk said:

    dixiedean said:

    "A source inside Number 10 tells me the PM & Gove have said if Yellowhammer documents are released into is the public domain “Brexit is over” in cabinet meeting.

    This would explain why MPs raised information suggesting Gov't is circumventing publishing the Yellowhammer docs"

    Extraordinary.

    There's a curious thing here. If the Yellowhammer documents really are that bad, then it's going to be an insanely brave government that lets No Deal Brexit happen. If anything goes significantly wrong, and individual politicians have been warned about it, the consequences don't bear thinking about.

    If the preparations have reached the "odd bumps in the road" stage, why not publish? It would strengthen the PM's hand, and make it more likely for things to go well.

    So apart from keeping up a bluff, because, who knows- Dominic Cummings may be able to scare the horse into singing- what's going on?
    Maybe the dimmer members of Cabinet have not yet twigged the import of the last sentence of your first paragraph? Cummings doesn't care. He'll be off before any consequences.
    The whole point about negotiation is not to show your hand, not to let others know your 'doors of the court' position, and not to waver until you have to. In this sense all negotiation is in little ways like the nuclear threat. You may think you know what you would do if....but whatever you do keep the other side wondering.

    In my opinion Jezza as PM would have no intention whatever of using retaliatory nuclear weapons to obliterate Moscow and Boris has in fact no intention of leaving without a deal under any circumstances whatever. The difference is that I am sure I am right about Jezza and nukes, and I am not sure about Boris and No Deal. Which in the latter case is how it should be. Art 50 was drafted in such a way that it is the only tactic available to the smaller power (that's the UK).

    Parliament has of course removed this only remaining tactic, which means I think that Boris will have to come back with basically TMs deal as the only option. If it can be confined to NI alone so much the better. The DUP richly deserve to lose in this battle in which they continue to play a uniformly negative, useless and self indulgent role.
    If the UK were a normal member state, without a territory with an equivalent of the Good Friday Agreement, what use would the No Deal 'tactic' be? The truth is that it's a useless negotiating ploy.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,633
    If @TSE authors the thread he should be banned from a "first" on commenting and eat pineapple pizza for a month.

    Agree 95%
    Disagree 5%

    If @TSE authors the thread he should first eat a pineapple pizza before being banned from commenting for a month :

    Agree 95%
    Disagree 5%
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 15,118

    Danny565 said:

    Lots of people on the previous thread confident Boris is going to get a deal ratified in time for Oct 31st.

    Even if, by some miracle, he did get a deal, and he won the "meaningful vote" in the Commons on the first day back on 14th Oct - there'd still be a TON of legislation that would need to be passed (not least by the Lords). Would it be possible by the 31st?

    No, there's not enough time to pass any of the required No Deal legislation before the 31st of October either.

    This is going to be another bonanza for the legal profession.
    How marvellous!!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 38,791
    JackW said:

    If @TSE authors the thread he should be banned from a "first" on commenting and eat pineapple pizza for a month.

    Agree 95%
    Disagree 5%

    If @TSE authors the thread he should first eat a pineapple pizza before being banned from commenting for a month :

    Agree 95%
    Disagree 5%

    A policy I can get behind. Cancel that judge-led inquiry.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Danny565 said:

    Lots of people on the previous thread confident Boris is going to get a deal ratified in time for Oct 31st.

    Even if, by some miracle, he did get a deal, and he won the "meaningful vote" in the Commons on the first day back on 14th Oct - there'd still be a TON of legislation that would need to be passed (not least by the Lords). Would it be possible by the 31st?

    No, there's not enough time to pass any of the required No Deal legislation before the 31st of October either.

    This is going to be another bonanza for the legal profession.
    How marvellous!!
    I know, I'm a man in even more demand following the failure of the Financial Services (Implementation of Legislation) Bill to become law due to prorogation.

    Hurrah for Boris.
  • Carnyx said:

    True or false:

    "The more time Sunil spends in Scotland traversing the ScotRail network, the more Remainery he becomes."

    Like the policeman and his bicycle in Flann O'Brien's novel? Got to Georgemas and Tweedbank yet?
    Tweedbank about a year ago in fact :)

    Still got to do Kyle of Lochalsh, Thurso/Georgemas/Wick, and Inverness to Aberdeen.
  • In any future Independence referendum the Unionists should ensure the question on the ballot paper is ‘Should Scotland remain a member of the United Kingdom?’

    The UK doesn’t have members. It just is.

    It does have "members" - the ERG :lol:
  • NooNoo Posts: 788
    This is, without a doubt, the stupidest suggestion I've heard in weeks.
    It's a recipe for confusion for both sides, and would lead to incredible bitterness from whichever side lost.

    Yes, you're right that questions influence answers. But reversing the meaning of answers, or reusing words from different contexts like "Remain" and "Leave" would be a catastrophe.

    Either reuse the Yes/No from 2014, or find a totally new formulation.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 4,323

    Carnyx said:

    True or false:

    "The more time Sunil spends in Scotland traversing the ScotRail network, the more Remainery he becomes."

    Like the policeman and his bicycle in Flann O'Brien's novel? Got to Georgemas and Tweedbank yet?
    Tweedbank about a year ago in fact :)

    Still got to do Kyle of Lochalsh, Thurso/Georgemas/Wick, and Inverness to Aberdeen.
    Ooh, real treats in store! Have a walk over to the Skye Bridge if you have time at Kyle (but it can be very midgy).
  • DruttDrutt Posts: 648

    TGOHF said:


    If Leavers are so confident they are still in the majority, why are they so frit by a second referendum?

    Are they worried they may actually lose?

    When leave won it would be “best of 5”
    Right now it is one all on plebiscites on this topic.
    The first plebiscite predated the creation of the EU by sixteen years, so it's not quite as instructive as the second.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 15,940

    Cyclefree said:

    Danny565 said:

    Lots of people on the previous thread confident Boris is going to get a deal ratified in time for Oct 31st.

    Even if, by some miracle, he did get a deal, and he won the "meaningful vote" in the Commons on the first day back on 14th Oct - there'd still be a TON of legislation that would need to be passed (not least by the Lords). Would it be possible by the 31st?

    No, there's not enough time to pass any of the required No Deal legislation before the 31st of October either.

    This is going to be another bonanza for the legal profession.
    How marvellous!!
    I know, I'm a man in even more demand following the failure of the Financial Services (Implementation of Legislation) Bill to become law due to prorogation.

    Hurrah for Boris.
    Isn't the failure of that legislation exactly what was wanted by, in the words of very old song, 'The Very Fat Man, who Waters the Workers Beer'?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,496

    True or false:

    "The more time Sunil spends in Scotland traversing the ScotRail network, the more Remainery he becomes."

    I don't know about that, but I feel a lot more remainy when I am visiting London than when I am outside it. Not sure why.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 50,988
    Mr. Recidivist, isn't it natural to be affected by the views of those around one?

    I wonder if that effect is naturally helpful to remain as the support is clustered in big cities rather than more dispersed.
  • Danny565 said:

    Lots of people on the previous thread confident Boris is going to get a deal ratified in time for Oct 31st.

    Even if, by some miracle, he did get a deal, and he won the "meaningful vote" in the Commons on the first day back on 14th Oct - there'd still be a TON of legislation that would need to be passed (not least by the Lords). Would it be possible by the 31st?

    The 31st is a symbolic date chosen by the French. If he has a deal that passes the EU and the Commons before then he has succeeded whether it comes into effect 31st Oct or 30 Nov etc. It seems extremely unlikely that he can get something that passes both, when the Commons has him trapped.
  • ByronicByronic Posts: 1,952
    Final thought: the juxtaposition of the weird yet touching Black Rod Shenanigans with the awful list of unelected losers now staffing the crypto-Federalist EuroPolitbureau makes me realise, in a strange way, how much we would lose if we subsumed ourselves into the EU forever (which is what it would be, if we went back, a failed Brexit would mean no more exits, ever)

    We cannot allow this. We have a remarkably precious and ancient democracy, and Black Rod's pinchbeck shoes have made me see this.

    I might be just be a transitioning ex male model, but I officially regret my Remain vote. We need to Leave.

    End.
  • Byronic said:

    Final thought: the juxtaposition of the weird yet touching Black Rod Shenanigans with the awful list of unelected losers now staffing the crypto-Federalist EuroPolitbureau makes me realise, in a strange way, how much we would lose if we subsumed ourselves into the EU forever (which is what it would be, if we went back, a failed Brexit would mean no more exits, ever)

    We cannot allow this. We have a remarkably precious and ancient democracy, and Black Rod's pinchbeck shoes have made me see this.

    I might be just be a transitioning ex male model, but I officially regret my Remain vote. We need to Leave.

    End.

    Unelected losers? Are you talking about the House of Lords?
  • isamisam Posts: 27,683
    Cyclefree said:

    Danny565 said:

    Lots of people on the previous thread confident Boris is going to get a deal ratified in time for Oct 31st.

    Even if, by some miracle, he did get a deal, and he won the "meaningful vote" in the Commons on the first day back on 14th Oct - there'd still be a TON of legislation that would need to be passed (not least by the Lords). Would it be possible by the 31st?

    No, there's not enough time to pass any of the required No Deal legislation before the 31st of October either.

    This is going to be another bonanza for the legal profession.
    How marvellous!!
    Coincidentally, almost every thread header is written by someone in that profession extolling the virtues of more delay
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 7,863
    Huh? I thought SeanT voted Leave (albeit with a lot of wobbling back and forth).
  • TSE is 100pc nailed on correct, RE: indyref2.

    That it was the Electoral Commission itself that allowed the blatant cheating question in indyref1 just goes to show that independent bodies, such as the BBC, can be responsible for some real gross incompetence/bias.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 20,385

    TSE is 100pc nailed on correct, RE: indyref2.

    That it was the Electoral Commission itself that allowed the blatant cheating question in indyref1 just goes to show that independent bodies, such as the BBC, can be responsible for some real gross incompetence/bias.

    They drink Stella, bound to happen.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 15,118

    Cyclefree said:

    Danny565 said:

    Lots of people on the previous thread confident Boris is going to get a deal ratified in time for Oct 31st.

    Even if, by some miracle, he did get a deal, and he won the "meaningful vote" in the Commons on the first day back on 14th Oct - there'd still be a TON of legislation that would need to be passed (not least by the Lords). Would it be possible by the 31st?

    No, there's not enough time to pass any of the required No Deal legislation before the 31st of October either.

    This is going to be another bonanza for the legal profession.
    How marvellous!!
    I know, I'm a man in even more demand following the failure of the Financial Services (Implementation of Legislation) Bill to become law due to prorogation.

    Hurrah for Boris.
    You must be overwhelmed with work and surely in need of experienced help ......😜
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 4,377
    The wording of the question does count for a lot.

    Re the SINDY2 question, I would suggest something along the lines of -

    "Wanna be ruled forever more by entitled tory poshboys?"

    This would counter (at least to some extent) the inbuilt advantage for the YES campaign.
  • kinabalu said:

    The wording of the question does count for a lot.

    Re the SINDY2 question, I would suggest something along the lines of -

    "Wanna be ruled forever more by entitled tory poshboys?"

    This would counter (at least to some extent) the inbuilt advantage for the YES campaign.

    Don't give them ideas
  • RobDRobD Posts: 38,791

    Byronic said:

    Final thought: the juxtaposition of the weird yet touching Black Rod Shenanigans with the awful list of unelected losers now staffing the crypto-Federalist EuroPolitbureau makes me realise, in a strange way, how much we would lose if we subsumed ourselves into the EU forever (which is what it would be, if we went back, a failed Brexit would mean no more exits, ever)

    We cannot allow this. We have a remarkably precious and ancient democracy, and Black Rod's pinchbeck shoes have made me see this.

    I might be just be a transitioning ex male model, but I officially regret my Remain vote. We need to Leave.

    End.

    Unelected losers? Are you talking about the House of Lords?
    Yes, let's get rid of all the unelected lords, and keep the elected hereditaries. :)
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 2,013

    True or false:

    "The more time Sunil spends in Scotland traversing the ScotRail network, the more Remainery he becomes."

    Because ScotRail is run by Dutch national railways?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 4,377

    Not Remain. Stay.

    Stay IS much stronger than Remain.

    "Remain with me baby"
    "C'mon c'mon let's remain together"
    "Should I remain or should I go now?"

    No. No. No.
  • Danny565 said:

    Huh? I thought SeanT voted Leave (albeit with a lot of wobbling back and forth).

    Byronic 'claims' he isn't SeanT. Whether anybody is convinced by that is another story.
  • True or false:

    "The more time Sunil spends in Scotland traversing the ScotRail network, the more Remainery he becomes."

    Is that because Scotland 'feels' more Scandinavian? Perhaps just stick to Tennents when travelling in Scotland for you Sunil.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 30,520
    kinabalu said:

    Not Remain. Stay.

    Stay IS much stronger than Remain.

    "Remain with me baby"
    "C'mon c'mon let's remain together"
    "Should I remain or should I go now?"

    No. No. No.
    Go is also stronger than Leave though.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,236

    True or false:

    "The more time Sunil spends in Scotland traversing the ScotRail network, the more Remainery he becomes."

    I don't know about that, but I feel a lot more remainy when I am visiting London than when I am outside it. Not sure why.
    It's the Diesel fumes !
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 77,123
    edited September 10
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Danny565 said:

    Lots of people on the previous thread confident Boris is going to get a deal ratified in time for Oct 31st.

    Even if, by some miracle, he did get a deal, and he won the "meaningful vote" in the Commons on the first day back on 14th Oct - there'd still be a TON of legislation that would need to be passed (not least by the Lords). Would it be possible by the 31st?

    No, there's not enough time to pass any of the required No Deal legislation before the 31st of October either.

    This is going to be another bonanza for the legal profession.
    How marvellous!!
    I know, I'm a man in even more demand following the failure of the Financial Services (Implementation of Legislation) Bill to become law due to prorogation.

    Hurrah for Boris.
    You must be overwhelmed with work and surely in need of experienced help ......😜
    I was about to call for you last week, we thought there was something massively dodgy going on in one division, turns out the case of multi million pounds going missing was caused by someone using a full stop instead of a comma as a number separator.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 35,345
    edited September 10
    Labour manifesto unlikely to commit to Leave or Remain

    Its manifesto will promise to reach a better Brexit deal, but is not expected to commit to either Leave or Remain.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49646544

    Arrh, the mythical better deal, which they will then recommend we vote against.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 4,377

    Go is also stronger than Leave though.

    "Since you gotta leave you'd better leave now ... leave now ... leave now"

    :smile:
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 1,971
    edited September 10

    TSE is 100pc nailed on correct, RE: indyref2.

    That it was the Electoral Commission itself that allowed the blatant cheating question in indyref1 just goes to show that independent bodies, such as the BBC, can be responsible for some real gross incompetence/bias.

    It was also Cameron who allowed it, much to his shame.

    Independence is a very loaded, aspirational and subjective term. The UK is on the verge of becoming an independent nation, yet the Scots nationalists want to subsume Scotland back within the constraints of the corporate EU state. So if we are going to retain reference to independence, something along the following lines would be needed post Brexit:

    "Should Scots continue to live in an independent country?"

    Yes, biased I know, but no more so than the first referendum.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 4,489
    edited September 10

    Labour manifesto unlikely to commit to Leave or Remain

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49646544

    Labour manifesto may as well say:
    V O T E
    L I B E R A L
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,626
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,236
    My number of Tweets I have received today has fallen drastically. I know Parliament has been shut down but surely the rumour mills are working. Right ?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 15,940

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Danny565 said:

    Lots of people on the previous thread confident Boris is going to get a deal ratified in time for Oct 31st.

    Even if, by some miracle, he did get a deal, and he won the "meaningful vote" in the Commons on the first day back on 14th Oct - there'd still be a TON of legislation that would need to be passed (not least by the Lords). Would it be possible by the 31st?

    No, there's not enough time to pass any of the required No Deal legislation before the 31st of October either.

    This is going to be another bonanza for the legal profession.
    How marvellous!!
    I know, I'm a man in even more demand following the failure of the Financial Services (Implementation of Legislation) Bill to become law due to prorogation.

    Hurrah for Boris.
    You must be overwhelmed with work and surely in need of experienced help ......😜
    I was about to call for you last week, we thought there was something massively dodgy going on in one division, turns out the case of multi million pounds going missing was caused by someone using a full stop instead of a comma as a number separator.
    I used to see similar things with doses. Could be nasty if we weren't alert.
  • Maybe this would be fairer:

    Should Scotland become an independent country and leave the United Kingdom’ Yes or No.

    Prefer this though

    Should Scotland become a vassal of the European Union (if they'll have us), hand over our fish and daughters to the perfidious Eurocrats, and have to resort to smuggling IrnBru over Carter Bar in order to have something to drink when visiting our interned relatives south of the border? Yah or Nein
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 4,489
    edited September 10
    Looks like @HYUFD ’s mate Netanyahu is annexing the Jordan Valley. That’ll help.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,236

    Labour manifesto unlikely to commit to Leave or Remain

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49646544

    Labour manifesto may as well say:
    V O T E
    L I B E R A L
    Whenever Corbyn is let loose, he comes up with these weird algorithms. Let's face it, the only viable and winning setup is Remain. OK we cannot revoke straightaway but we can after a 2nd referendum. Anything else is a waste of space. #StopBrexit #RevokeArticle50 #FBPE #brexit

  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 500

    Looks like @HYUFD ’s mate Netanyahu is annexing the Jordan Valley. That’ll help.

    That is insane. Can you link?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 4,489
    Gabs2 said:

    Looks like @HYUFD ’s mate Netanyahu is annexing the Jordan Valley. That’ll help.

    That is insane. Can you link?
    Just Twitter stuff at the mo



  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Danny565 said:

    Lots of people on the previous thread confident Boris is going to get a deal ratified in time for Oct 31st.

    Even if, by some miracle, he did get a deal, and he won the "meaningful vote" in the Commons on the first day back on 14th Oct - there'd still be a TON of legislation that would need to be passed (not least by the Lords). Would it be possible by the 31st?

    No, there's not enough time to pass any of the required No Deal legislation before the 31st of October either.

    This is going to be another bonanza for the legal profession.
    How marvellous!!
    I know, I'm a man in even more demand following the failure of the Financial Services (Implementation of Legislation) Bill to become law due to prorogation.

    Hurrah for Boris.
    You must be overwhelmed with work and surely in need of experienced help ......😜
    I was about to call for you last week, we thought there was something massively dodgy going on in one division, turns out the case of multi million pounds going missing was caused by someone using a full stop instead of a comma as a number separator.
    I used to see similar things with doses. Could be nasty if we weren't alert.
    A colleague of my father had such bad handwriting the nurses insisted he wrote the doses in letters as well.

    His 4s looked like 7s and his 2s looked like 5s.
  • As some of you know my wife and I leave on a round trip cruise from Southampton to Nova Scotia, New England and New York on Saturday and return on Tuesday 8th October. This is my dear wife's 80th birthday present fulfilling a dream we have both shared since the the early 1960's. When I booked it as a surprise present 18 months ago little did we think we would be leaving our shores only to return approx 4 weeks later to a UK that has totally lost it's way.

    I have decided to prorogued myself from this wonderful forum (unless something earth shattering happens) but before I go I would just like to make one or two comments.

    I utterly reject Boris nee Cummings prorogation of the HOC which acted as a catalyst for the opposition and I have no idea why anyone thinks Cummings is any good and certainly he has been a disaster so far.

    I also condemn Boris nee Cummings sacking of 21 good conservative mps prompting my resignation from the party and demonstrating just how clueless they both are

    I also condemn Corbyn and others for running scared of a GE

    I accept there are strong feelings from leavers and remainers and there must be a considerable number like me seeking a compromise. I have always wanted that to happen hence why I backed TM deal. Listening again to Stephen Kinnock this lunchtime he seems confident that, with moderate conservative and many of his labour colleagues the 'Kinnock' amendment may well go through in Mid October

    Now I have no idea if this is the case and plenty will say that is 'for the birds', but as we cruise across the Atlantic and back I just want to say that I hope everyone continues their vigorous debate, which is the strength of this forum, but those who feel their case is strengthened with rather colourful and hyperbolic descriptions, it really is not

    I look forward to contributing as and when I can and wish all sides and none an interesting continuing political debate
  • "Should Scotland become an independent country and leave the United Kingdom’ Yes or No."

    There was absolutely nothing stopping the Electoral Commission using this question the first time round.

    It's time for hardball now.

    It's TSE's question or they don't get they're factor 30 (or whatever it is)
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 4,489
    I hope you and your wife have a lovely time @Big_G_NorthWales!
  • I hope you and your wife have a lovely time @Big_G_NorthWales!

    Thank you so much. It has come round so quickly but then time flies by very quickly at our age
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 20,385

    As some of you know my wife and I leave on a round trip cruise from Southampton to Nova Scotia, New England and New York on Saturday and return on Tuesday 8th October. This is my dear wife's 80th birthday present fulfilling a dream we have both shared since the the early 1960's. When I booked it as a surprise present 18 months ago little did we think we would be leaving our shores only to return approx 4 weeks later to a UK that has totally lost it's way.

    I have decided to prorogued myself from this wonderful forum (unless something earth shattering happens) but before I go I would just like to make one or two comments.

    I utterly reject Boris nee Cummings prorogation of the HOC which acted as a catalyst for the opposition and I have no idea why anyone thinks Cummings is any good and certainly he has been a disaster so far.

    I also condemn Boris nee Cummings sacking of 21 good conservative mps prompting my resignation from the party and demonstrating just how clueless they both are

    I also condemn Corbyn and others for running scared of a GE

    I accept there are strong feelings from leavers and remainers and there must be a considerable number like me seeking a compromise. I have always wanted that to happen hence why I backed TM deal. Listening again to Stephen Kinnock this lunchtime he seems confident that, with moderate conservative and many of his labour colleagues the 'Kinnock' amendment may well go through in Mid October

    Now I have no idea if this is the case and plenty will say that is 'for the birds', but as we cruise across the Atlantic and back I just want to say that I hope everyone continues their vigorous debate, which is the strength of this forum, but those who feel their case is strengthened with rather colourful and hyperbolic descriptions, it really is not

    I look forward to contributing as and when I can and wish all sides and none an interesting continuing political debate

    Just go, avoid the news, treat your wife and have a great time.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 2,470
    Bozo could bring back any deal and the fawning right wing press would call it a victory.

    For this reason I’m much more positive about a deal than for many months . The right wing anti EU press need him to succeed .

    He was their chosen one !

    And I think there would be massive pressure on MPs to support that .
  • As some of you know my wife and I leave on a round trip cruise from Southampton to Nova Scotia, New England and New York on Saturday and return on Tuesday 8th October. This is my dear wife's 80th birthday present fulfilling a dream we have both shared since the the early 1960's. When I booked it as a surprise present 18 months ago little did we think we would be leaving our shores only to return approx 4 weeks later to a UK that has totally lost it's way.

    I have decided to prorogued myself from this wonderful forum (unless something earth shattering happens) but before I go I would just like to make one or two comments.

    I utterly reject Boris nee Cummings prorogation of the HOC which acted as a catalyst for the opposition and I have no idea why anyone thinks Cummings is any good and certainly he has been a disaster so far.

    I also condemn Boris nee Cummings sacking of 21 good conservative mps prompting my resignation from the party and demonstrating just how clueless they both are

    I also condemn Corbyn and others for running scared of a GE

    I accept there are strong feelings from leavers and remainers and there must be a considerable number like me seeking a compromise. I have always wanted that to happen hence why I backed TM deal. Listening again to Stephen Kinnock this lunchtime he seems confident that, with moderate conservative and many of his labour colleagues the 'Kinnock' amendment may well go through in Mid October

    Now I have no idea if this is the case and plenty will say that is 'for the birds', but as we cruise across the Atlantic and back I just want to say that I hope everyone continues their vigorous debate, which is the strength of this forum, but those who feel their case is strengthened with rather colourful and hyperbolic descriptions, it really is not

    I look forward to contributing as and when I can and wish all sides and none an interesting continuing political debate

    Just go, avoid the news, treat your wife and have a great time.
    Thanks.

    In the words of TM slightly amended

    'Nothing will change'
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 9,171

    As some of you know my wife and I leave on a round trip cruise from Southampton to Nova Scotia, New England and New York on Saturday and return on Tuesday 8th October. This is my dear wife's 80th birthday present fulfilling a dream we have both shared since the the early 1960's. When I booked it as a surprise present 18 months ago little did we think we would be leaving our shores only to return approx 4 weeks later to a UK that has totally lost it's way.

    I have decided to prorogued myself from this wonderful forum (unless something earth shattering happens) but before I go I would just like to make one or two comments.

    I utterly reject Boris nee Cummings prorogation of the HOC which acted as a catalyst for the opposition and I have no idea why anyone thinks Cummings is any good and certainly he has been a disaster so far.

    I also condemn Boris nee Cummings sacking of 21 good conservative mps prompting my resignation from the party and demonstrating just how clueless they both are

    I also condemn Corbyn and others for running scared of a GE

    I accept there are strong feelings from leavers and remainers and there must be a considerable number like me seeking a compromise. I have always wanted that to happen hence why I backed TM deal. Listening again to Stephen Kinnock this lunchtime he seems confident that, with moderate conservative and many of his labour colleagues the 'Kinnock' amendment may well go through in Mid October

    Now I have no idea if this is the case and plenty will say that is 'for the birds', but as we cruise across the Atlantic and back I just want to say that I hope everyone continues their vigorous debate, which is the strength of this forum, but those who feel their case is strengthened with rather colourful and hyperbolic descriptions, it really is not

    I look forward to contributing as and when I can and wish all sides and none an interesting continuing political debate

    Enjoy the trip Mr G.

    Do we get to track your progress, like we did with Greta?
  • Also, the Unionists should change their slogan from-

    No thanks

    to

    UK OK
  • Labour manifesto unlikely to commit to Leave or Remain

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49646544

    Labour manifesto may as well say:
    V O T E
    L I B E R A L
    Whenever Corbyn is let loose, he comes up with these weird algorithms. Let's face it, the only viable and winning setup is Remain. OK we cannot revoke straightaway but we can after a 2nd referendum. Anything else is a waste of space. #StopBrexit #RevokeArticle50 #FBPE #brexit

    How about leave? Would mess up the Conservatives and keep all those lovely leave seats.
    Happy to help

  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 7,863
    Because that's not going to make things even more unstable AT ALL...
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 9,931
    Danny565 said:

    Huh? I thought SeanT voted Leave (albeit with a lot of wobbling back and forth).

    If you ever have time, look up the plot of "A Scanner Darkly" or "The Dark Half"

    At some point a book will appear in my local Tesco written by a moderately successful thriller author about a travel journalist trying to interview a frustrated transitioning ex male model who only communicates by email and always cancels the interview at the last minute.

    It will then be made into a film by a screenwriter who has wangled a director's gig. He will inserts a telephone conversation between the two, and the denouement will feature the increasingly-horrified gratuitous love interest realising how that conversation took place.

    ...and every bloody PBer in the audience will start screaming at that point
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 4,489
    Danny565 said:

    Because that's not going to make things even more unstable AT ALL...
    :/ I’m generally a supporter of Israel all things considered but this is all very inflammatory.

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 6,337
    Presumably Bibi told Boris when they met
  • Well that should knock all the wailing about Sir Geoff off the top of the news agenda.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 35,345
    edited September 10
    Well YouTube auto-generated subtitles of Netanyahu speech aren't doing very well! It appears our AI overlords haven't learned to translate Hebrew yet.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,236
    Danny565 said:

    Because that's not going to make things even more unstable AT ALL...
    He has a little problem with his Attorney General. But the election comes earlier.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 47,074
    Danny565 said:

    Lots of people on the previous thread confident Boris is going to get a deal ratified in time for Oct 31st.

    Even if, by some miracle, he did get a deal, and he won the "meaningful vote" in the Commons on the first day back on 14th Oct - there'd still be a TON of legislation that would need to be passed (not least by the Lords). Would it be possible by the 31st?

    Haha. No. Which is a main reason getting a deal at all did not look like a priority for the government.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 4,538

    As some of you know my wife and I leave on a round trip cruise from Southampton to Nova Scotia, New England and New York on Saturday and return on Tuesday 8th October. This is my dear wife's 80th birthday present fulfilling a dream we have both shared since the the early 1960's. When I booked it as a surprise present 18 months ago little did we think we would be leaving our shores only to return approx 4 weeks later to a UK that has totally lost it's way.

    I have decided to prorogued myself from this wonderful forum (unless something earth shattering happens) but before I go I would just like to make one or two comments.

    I utterly reject Boris nee Cummings prorogation of the HOC which acted as a catalyst for the opposition and I have no idea why anyone thinks Cummings is any good and certainly he has been a disaster so far.

    I also condemn Boris nee Cummings sacking of 21 good conservative mps prompting my resignation from the party and demonstrating just how clueless they both are

    I also condemn Corbyn and others for running scared of a GE

    I accept there are strong feelings from leavers and remainers and there must be a considerable number like me seeking a compromise. I have always wanted that to happen hence why I backed TM deal. Listening again to Stephen Kinnock this lunchtime he seems confident that, with moderate conservative and many of his labour colleagues the 'Kinnock' amendment may well go through in Mid October

    Now I have no idea if this is the case and plenty will say that is 'for the birds', but as we cruise across the Atlantic and back I just want to say that I hope everyone continues their vigorous debate, which is the strength of this forum, but those who feel their case is strengthened with rather colourful and hyperbolic descriptions, it really is not

    I look forward to contributing as and when I can and wish all sides and none an interesting continuing political debate

    Bon voyage. Have a great trip.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,236
    nico67 said:

    Bozo could bring back any deal and the fawning right wing press would call it a victory.

    For this reason I’m much more positive about a deal than for many months . The right wing anti EU press need him to succeed .

    He was their chosen one !

    And I think there would be massive pressure on MPs to support that .

    The deal is already there. Drop the current backstop. Create a NI only Backstop. Give it a new name. Watch out for Arlene ! That's it really.
  • As some of you know my wife and I leave on a round trip cruise from Southampton to Nova Scotia, New England and New York on Saturday and return on Tuesday 8th October. This is my dear wife's 80th birthday present fulfilling a dream we have both shared since the the early 1960's. When I booked it as a surprise present 18 months ago little did we think we would be leaving our shores only to return approx 4 weeks later to a UK that has totally lost it's way.

    I have decided to prorogued myself from this wonderful forum (unless something earth shattering happens) but before I go I would just like to make one or two comments.

    I utterly reject Boris nee Cummings prorogation of the HOC which acted as a catalyst for the opposition and I have no idea why anyone thinks Cummings is any good and certainly he has been a disaster so far.

    I also condemn Boris nee Cummings sacking of 21 good conservative mps prompting my resignation from the party and demonstrating just how clueless they both are

    I also condemn Corbyn and others for running scared of a GE

    I accept there are strong feelings from leavers and remainers and there must be a considerable number like me seeking a compromise. I have always wanted that to happen hence why I backed TM deal. Listening again to Stephen Kinnock this lunchtime he seems confident that, with moderate conservative and many of his labour colleagues the 'Kinnock' amendment may well go through in Mid October

    Now I have no idea if this is the case and plenty will say that is 'for the birds', but as we cruise across the Atlantic and back I just want to say that I hope everyone continues their vigorous debate, which is the strength of this forum, but those who feel their case is strengthened with rather colourful and hyperbolic descriptions, it really is not

    I look forward to contributing as and when I can and wish all sides and none an interesting continuing political debate

    Enjoy the trip Mr G.

    Do we get to track your progress, like we did with Greta?
    Thank you and yes

    Google Sapphire Princess bridge cam and it should give you the navigation as well

    Or www.cleancruising.com.au and key in Southampton, North America East Coast, September 19, and Princess cruises
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 28,335
    BGNW: hope you have a nice holiday. Probably a good idea to take a break from PB.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 15,118
    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Danny565 said:

    Lots of people on the previous thread confident Boris is going to get a deal ratified in time for Oct 31st.

    Even if, by some miracle, he did get a deal, and he won the "meaningful vote" in the Commons on the first day back on 14th Oct - there'd still be a TON of legislation that would need to be passed (not least by the Lords). Would it be possible by the 31st?

    No, there's not enough time to pass any of the required No Deal legislation before the 31st of October either.

    This is going to be another bonanza for the legal profession.
    How marvellous!!
    Coincidentally, almost every thread header is written by someone in that profession extolling the virtues of more delay
    I can assure you that the amount of work resulting from a delay will be as nothing to the amount of work there will be if there is a no deal exit on 31 October.

    If it were just our wallets talking we'd be the hardest of Brexiteers. 🤑
  • RogerRoger Posts: 12,095
    edited September 10

    Labour manifesto unlikely to commit to Leave or Remain

    Its manifesto will promise to reach a better Brexit deal, but is not expected to commit to either Leave or Remain.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49646544

    Arrh, the mythical better deal, which they will then recommend we vote against.

    Labour will presumably arrive at their idea of a deal get provisional approval from the EU and then put in their manifesto a promise to call a referendum to approve their deal or Remain. No recommendation necessary
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 7,395

    True or false:

    "The more time Sunil spends in Scotland traversing the ScotRail network, the more Remainery he becomes."

    I am doing Oslo to Bergen on Sunday. Are there any political side effects I should watch out for?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 26,696
    When I went to the Jordan valley, it didn't look like Israel had any plans to alter its ownership......
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 28,335
    O/T

    "Police hunt for cyclist who ran red light and clipped City worker as he crossed the road - then got off his bike to head-butt him in front of horrified onlookers"

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7447037/Hunt-head-butting-cyclist-ran-red-light-clipped-pedestrian.html
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 15,940
    Barnesian said:

    As some of you know my wife and I leave on a round trip cruise from Southampton to Nova Scotia, New England and New York on Saturday and return on Tuesday 8th October. This is my dear wife's 80th birthday present fulfilling a dream we have both shared since the the early 1960's. When I booked it as a surprise present 18 months ago little did we think we would be leaving our shores only to return approx 4 weeks later to a UK that has totally lost it's way.

    I have decided to prorogued myself from this wonderful forum (unless something earth shattering happens) but before I go I would just like to make one or two comments.

    I utterly reject Boris nee Cummings prorogation of the HOC which acted as a catalyst for the opposition and I have no idea why anyone thinks Cummings is any good and certainly he has been a disaster so far.

    I also condemn Boris nee Cummings sacking of 21 good conservative mps prompting my resignation from the party and demonstrating just how clueless they both are

    I also condemn Corbyn and others for running scared of a GE

    I accept there are strong feelings from leavers and remainers and there must be a considerable number like me seeking a compromise. I have always wanted that to happen hence why I backed TM deal. Listening again to Stephen Kinnock this lunchtime he seems confident that, with moderate conservative and many of his labour colleagues the 'Kinnock' amendment may well go through in Mid October

    Now I have no idea if this is the case and plenty will say that is 'for the birds', but as we cruise across the Atlantic and back I just want to say that I hope everyone continues their vigorous debate, which is the strength of this forum, but those who feel their case is strengthened with rather colourful and hyperbolic descriptions, it really is not

    I look forward to contributing as and when I can and wish all sides and none an interesting continuing political debate

    Bon voyage. Have a great trip.
    Indeed Mr G. I hope you both enjoy yourselves, and find yourselves thoroughly spoiled as a result of your wife's birthday. Is it during the cruise?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 15,118

    As some of you know my wife and I leave on a round trip cruise from Southampton to Nova Scotia, New England and New York on Saturday and return on Tuesday 8th October. This is my dear wife's 80th birthday present fulfilling a dream we have both shared since the the early 1960's. When I booked it as a surprise present 18 months ago little did we think we would be leaving our shores only to return approx 4 weeks later to a UK that has totally lost it's way.

    I have decided to prorogued myself from this wonderful forum (unless something earth shattering happens) but before I go I would just like to make one or two comments.

    I utterly reject Boris nee Cummings prorogation of the HOC which acted as a catalyst for the opposition and I have no idea why anyone thinks Cummings is any good and certainly he has been a disaster so far.

    I also condemn Boris nee Cummings sacking of 21 good conservative mps prompting my resignation from the party and demonstrating just how clueless they both are

    I also condemn Corbyn and others for running scared of a GE

    I accept there are strong feelings from leavers and remainers and there must be a considerable number like me seeking a compromise. I have always wanted that to happen hence why I backed TM deal. Listening again to Stephen Kinnock this lunchtime he seems confident that, with moderate conservative and many of his labour colleagues the 'Kinnock' amendment may well go through in Mid October

    Now I have no idea if this is the case and plenty will say that is 'for the birds', but as we cruise across the Atlantic and back I just want to say that I hope everyone continues their vigorous debate, which is the strength of this forum, but those who feel their case is strengthened with rather colourful and hyperbolic descriptions, it really is not

    I look forward to contributing as and when I can and wish all sides and none an interesting continuing political debate

    Have a wonderful time!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 15,940
    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Danny565 said:

    Lots of people on the previous thread confident Boris is going to get a deal ratified in time for Oct 31st.

    Even if, by some miracle, he did get a deal, and he won the "meaningful vote" in the Commons on the first day back on 14th Oct - there'd still be a TON of legislation that would need to be passed (not least by the Lords). Would it be possible by the 31st?

    No, there's not enough time to pass any of the required No Deal legislation before the 31st of October either.

    This is going to be another bonanza for the legal profession.
    How marvellous!!
    Coincidentally, almost every thread header is written by someone in that profession extolling the virtues of more delay
    I can assure you that the amount of work resulting from a delay will be as nothing to the amount of work there will be if there is a no deal exit on 31 October.

    If it were just our wallets talking we'd be the hardest of Brexiteers. 🤑
    It's an ill wind..........
    Who was it said of a wind instrument that it was an ill wind that nobody blows good?
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,486

    nico67 said:

    Bozo could bring back any deal and the fawning right wing press would call it a victory.

    For this reason I’m much more positive about a deal than for many months . The right wing anti EU press need him to succeed .

    He was their chosen one !

    And I think there would be massive pressure on MPs to support that .

    The deal is already there. Drop the current backstop. Create a NI only Backstop. Give it a new name. Watch out for Arlene ! That's it really.
    You mean Lady Arlene of the thwarted backstop? And our new high representative to the Cayman Islands?

    The Government have their ways of buying people off.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 38,791
    Bon voyage @Big_G_NorthWales!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 26,696
    edited September 10
    Enjoy whales and dolphins, BigG - and learn to say "they look lovely - but no thank you...."!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 9,778
    RobD said:

    Bon voyage @Big_G_NorthWales!

    Yes indeed - have a good one!
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 3,514

    Labour manifesto unlikely to commit to Leave or Remain

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49646544

    Labour manifesto may as well say:
    V O T E
    L I B E R A L
    Whenever Corbyn is let loose, he comes up with these weird algorithms. Let's face it, the only viable and winning setup is Remain. OK we cannot revoke straightaway but we can after a 2nd referendum. Anything else is a waste of space. #StopBrexit #RevokeArticle50 #FBPE #brexit

    Whereas I see remain as one of the worst outcomes.

    Remaining on our existing terms does nothing to address the fundamentals that provoked and caused the Eurosceptics to have the power to bring about a referendum and the motivation to win a referendum.

    Remaining on the current terms is storing up trouble for the future. As a peripheral (in the sense of not in Euro and Schengen) member there will be multiple reasons for us to feel ignored and rejected as the Euro core will (quiet rightly) use QMV to further the interests of the Euro core of the EU.

    It really is a road to discontent, disruption and continued bickering and hostility between the already aggravated EU factions.

    No deal has had a myriad of disaster related predictions hung round its neck, almost to the extent that it won't be as bad as predicted and the sky won't fall in, but it isn't a sensible option.

    If we remain in the EU we have to do it in a way that our relationships in the EU are better than they were before and there isn't so much negativity about all the little stupidities that the EU loves to dabble in. To enjoy the benefits of the EU you need to be in the EU, not half in and half out. Join the Euro, Schengen and be full in to change our perception of the EU. It is also the only way to prevent a future easy exit (as the currency issue would make it almost impossible to leave.

    That leaves EFTA / EAA / Deal as the only other options, all of which I would consider to better than the idiocy of revoke and return to the mish mash of part in and part out.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 9,778

    nico67 said:

    Bozo could bring back any deal and the fawning right wing press would call it a victory.

    For this reason I’m much more positive about a deal than for many months . The right wing anti EU press need him to succeed .

    He was their chosen one !

    And I think there would be massive pressure on MPs to support that .

    The deal is already there. Drop the current backstop. Create a NI only Backstop. Give it a new name. Watch out for Arlene ! That's it really. ...and then watch it be defeated in the HoC.
    Corrected for you.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 15,940

    Enjoy whales and dolphins, BigG - and learn to say "they look lovely - but no thank you...."!

    And that's just the cakes, never mind the cocktails.

    Although you're TT aren't you?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 30,520
    philiph said:

    If we remain in the EU we have to do it in a way that our relationships in the EU are better than they were before and there isn't so much negativity about all the little stupidities that the EU loves to dabble in. To enjoy the benefits of the EU you need to be in the EU, not half in and half out. Join the Euro, Schengen and be full in to change our perception of the EU. It is also the only way to prevent a future easy exit (as the currency issue would make it almost impossible to leave.

    That leaves EFTA / EAA / Deal as the only other options, all of which I would consider to better than the idiocy of revoke and return to the mish mash of part in and part out.

    You're assuming that Revoke is a final destination. It wouldn't be, for the reasons you outline, and a good chunk of Brexiteers will adopt the same logic as you to conclude that we might as well go all the way in. People like Andrew Lilico were already making this argument when they thought Remain had won in 2016.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 9,778
    edited September 10
    Apologies for my no doubt typically dense question but...

    With the NI only backstop, does that mean that if the backstop is ever invoked we'd have border controls between NI and GB?

    I have no issues with that and would welcome it but it's surely not going to buy off Farage & co is it?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 12,095

    As some of you know my wife and I leave on a round trip cruise from Southampton to Nova Scotia, New England and New York on Saturday and return on Tuesday 8th October. This is my dear wife's 80th birthday present fulfilling a dream we have both shared since the the early 1960's. When I booked it as a surprise present 18 months ago little did we think we would be leaving our shores only to return approx 4 weeks later to a UK that has totally lost it's way.

    I have decided to prorogued myself from this wonderful forum (unless something earth shattering happens) but before I go I would just like to make one or two comments.

    I utterly reject Boris nee Cummings prorogation of the HOC which acted as a catalyst for the opposition and I have no idea why anyone thinks Cummings is any good and certainly he has been a disaster so far.

    I also condemn Boris nee Cummings sacking of 21 good conservative mps prompting my resignation from the party and demonstrating just how clueless they both are

    I also condemn Corbyn and others for running scared of a GE

    I accept there are strong feelings from leavers and remainers and there must be a considerable number like me seeking a compromise. I have always wanted that to happen hence why I backed TM deal. Listening again to Stephen Kinnock this lunchtime he seems confident that, with moderate conservative and many of his labour colleagues the 'Kinnock' amendment may well go through in Mid October

    Now I have no idea if this is the case and plenty will say that is 'for the birds', but as we cruise across the Atlantic and back I just want to say that I hope everyone continues their vigorous debate, which is the strength of this forum, but those who feel their case is strengthened with rather colourful and hyperbolic descriptions, it really is not

    I look forward to contributing as and when I can and wish all sides and none an interesting continuing political debate

    If it takes you a week to get there and a week to get back wont you only see land for four days? Buon viaggio!
This discussion has been closed.