Ok watching Judge on BBC news now it is clear no order has been made pending SC appeal. So prorogation not yet quashed and Cherry is talking out of her arse
Boris has decided to smash every record possible in his short tenure as Prime Minister. And I do now expect it to be short. Parliament seems clear to not want to discard its duties with regards to Brexit, and has a substantial number of deselected/newly moved/independent MPs who don't want a new election.
What's the point of the prorogation of parliament now, anyway? Johnson can't legally drive us over the cliff so the whole circus should be allowed back in the big top so that the useless fuckers can at least try and earn the money we give them.
Perhaps the government would actually like to have a Queen's Speech?
What's she going to say? "My government doesn't have a majority and is about as useful as tits on a fish"? Face it, Brexit and the Tories are done. Time to move on.
But we can't because the numpties on the other side won't have an election. What an utter shambles.
What's the point of the prorogation of parliament now, anyway? Johnson can't legally drive us over the cliff so the whole circus should be allowed back in the big top so that the useless fuckers can at least try and earn the money we give them.
Just for starters, Johnson was supposed to be giving evidence to a committee in Parliament today.
What's the point of the prorogation of parliament now, anyway? Johnson can't legally drive us over the cliff so the whole circus should be allowed back in the big top so that the useless fuckers can at least try and earn the money we give them.
Good point. Wasn't the original plan to give Rebel Alliance less time to get it together and run down the clock? That failed, so surely re-opening would give more time for RA to fall apart in bickering?
If it now gets overturned in the UK Supreme Court that would be very good long term for Scottish independence.
Agreed. It is a very bad look having Scottish legal decisions overturned by a court in London given they are supposed to.be separate legal systems.
It's a pyramid system, not a separate system.
It is fixed with them puting the Scottish system subject to the English Supreme Court because they did not like Scotland having any say.. It will not go down well if overturned and will be more nails in the coffin of the union
It will be a legal decision based upon legal opinion, not politics. It is the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom, not England. Nationalists will try and frame it as you have no doubt, but it would be more nationalist BS, but sure, there are gullible people who will fall for that line.
But the trouble with that and with the system as a whole is that the legal systems are different on each side of the border. It is conceivable that something that is rightly declared illegal under Scottish law could be legal under English law. If the Supreme Court then rules according to English law then justice has not been served in Scotland.
Ok watching Judge on BBC news now it is clear no order has been made pending SC appeal. So prorogation not yet quashed and Cherry is talking out of her arse
The summary judgment says an order will be made declaring prorogation null and of no effect.
As far as I can see it doesn't say anything about the Supreme Court appeal.
What's the point of the prorogation of parliament now, anyway? Johnson can't legally drive us over the cliff so the whole circus should be allowed back in the big top so that the useless fuckers can at least try and earn the money we give them.
Perhaps the government would actually like to have a Queen's Speech?
The Queens Speech would not be held until the planned date, unless the government asks the Queen to hold it on a different date. There is a reason why Johnson wanted the Queens Speech so late.
If the Scottish courts have indeed just made a ruling, the consequences of which are entirely unclear and result in lawyers arguing amongst themselves as to how it should be interpreted, can't we at least agree on one point from across the Brexit divide?
Namely that the Scottish courts are every bit as cr*p as their football team.
They seem to be basing the argument on “the central pillar of good governance principle enshrined in the constitution”.
That seems rather weak to me as a justiciable point: we don’t have a written constitution.
I’d expect the Supreme Court to overturn this.
Hard to argue that a central principle enshrined in our constitution is bad governance though...
I don’t think that’s relevant.
The PM can advise HMQ (he’s her minister) what he likes on this and shes obliged (constitutional monarch) to follow his advice.
Johnson has made a very bad decision for political reasons, poorly advised HMQ and abused the convention. It will likely result in more of our constitution being written down.
But it’s not illegal.
Isnt that for the courts to decide?
The Supreme Court, yes.
I don’t see how Scottish courts have jurisdiction over the Parliament of the whole UK. Only the Court of the whole UK does.
Similarly, I’d expect a Scottish court ruling to have supreme weight over Scottish law and the Scottish Parliament.
Surely if HMG does X across the UK and the Scottish courts find it is illegal under Scots law then something has to give. HMG can withdraw X, modify X, or of course appeal to UKSC.
The significance of this has not sunk in yet. The SC can and possibly will rule that prorogation was lawful- but has the power to say in doing so that the monarch was misled as to reason. If so the PM has to resign- there can be no greater wrong under the constitution. Boris career could be over next week whatever the Brexit outcome.
If it now gets overturned in the UK Supreme Court that would be very good long term for Scottish independence.
Agreed. It is a very bad look having Scottish legal decisions overturned by a court in London given they are supposed to.be separate legal systems.
It's a pyramid system, not a separate system.
It is fixed with them puting the Scottish system subject to the English Supreme Court because they did not like Scotland having any say.. It will not go down well if overturned and will be more nails in the coffin of the union
It will be a legal decision based upon legal opinion, not politics. It is the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom, not England. Nationalists will try and frame it as you have no doubt, but it would be more nationalist BS, but sure, there are gullible people who will fall for that line.
But the trouble with that and with the system as a whole is that the legal systems are different on each side of the border. It is conceivable that something that is rightly declared illegal under Scottish law could be legal under English law. If the Supreme Court then rules according to English law then justice has not been served in Scotland.
It seems like a good principle that the government's actions should be lawful in all the UK's legal jurisdictions.
Ok watching Judge on BBC news now it is clear no order has been made pending SC appeal. So prorogation not yet quashed and Cherry is talking out of her arse
The summary judgment says an order will be made declaring prorogation null and of no effect.
As far as I can see it doesn't say anything about the Supreme Court appeal.
A video clip of the lead judge was played at 11am on BBC News said the court made no order today. I'm just going off that
In all seriousness, probably. Judges are enemies of the people like parliament, give Boris a majority so he can get Brexit done.
I'm biased against it but I think the rank incompetence of the government and, if upheld, lack of care about the law, will cost the Tories a few points at least
Ignorance of the law is not a good look for a government.
They seem to be basing the argument on “the central pillar of good governance principle enshrined in the constitution”.
That seems rather weak to me as a justiciable point: we don’t have a written constitution.
I’d expect the Supreme Court to overturn this.
Hard to argue that a central principle enshrined in our constitution is bad governance though...
I don’t think that’s relevant.
The PM can advise HMQ (he’s her minister) what he likes on this and shes obliged (constitutional monarch) to follow his advice.
Johnson has made a very bad decision for political reasons, poorly advised HMQ and abused the convention. It will likely result in more of our constitution being written down.
But it’s not illegal.
I disagree with you on the merits of that political decision, but let's put that to one side.
The bad political decision that Johnson made was a different one. It was to allow the bill to prevent no deal to go forward to Royal Assent, rather than delaying for a few days in order to allow it to get Royal Assent by default only as an automatic result of prorogation (as all bills which have completed their parliamentary stages do). Were prorogation to be ruled illegal, it would follow that there would still have been no granting of Royal Assent for the bill, and Johnson would technically still be free of his obligations under it.
What's the point of the prorogation of parliament now, anyway? Johnson can't legally drive us over the cliff so the whole circus should be allowed back in the big top so that the useless fuckers can at least try and earn the money we give them.
Perhaps the government would actually like to have a Queen's Speech?
The Queens Speech would not be held until the planned date, unless the government asks the Queen to hold it on a different date. There is a reason why Johnson wanted the Queens Speech so late.
I'm sure the Queen will be ever so accomodating to Boris at the moment..
As a born and bred Englishman could I just say to our Scottish neighbours:
Please don't ever leave us - think of the mess we'd be in without you!
I would concur with the thought, the Scots have been a great influence on our politics, but also if they do want to leave they should be able to. Reflections on how difficult Brexit is to actually deliver will hopefully make a difference.
If it now gets overturned in the UK Supreme Court that would be very good long term for Scottish independence.
Agreed. It is a very bad look having Scottish legal decisions overturned by a court in London given they are supposed to.be separate legal systems.
It's a pyramid system, not a separate system.
It is fixed with them puting the Scottish system subject to the English Supreme Court because they did not like Scotland having any say.. It will not go down well if overturned and will be more nails in the coffin of the union
It will be a legal decision based upon legal opinion, not politics. It is the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom, not England. Nationalists will try and frame it as you have no doubt, but it would be more nationalist BS, but sure, there are gullible people who will fall for that line.
But the trouble with that and with the system as a whole is that the legal systems are different on each side of the border. It is conceivable that something that is rightly declared illegal under Scottish law could be legal under English law. If the Supreme Court then rules according to English law then justice has not been served in Scotland.
It seems like a good principle that the government's actions should be lawful in all the UK's legal jurisdictions.
More 'the situation has developed not necessarily to the Union's advantage' news.
'My Northern Ireland survey finds the Union on a knife-edge
Last month my polling in Scotland found a small lead for independence. My latest research, a survey in Northern Ireland, brings equally gloomy news for unionists: a slender lead for Irish unification in the event of a referendum on whether or not Northern Ireland should remain part of the United Kingdom.'
If it now gets overturned in the UK Supreme Court that would be very good long term for Scottish independence.
Agreed. It is a very bad look having Scottish legal decisions overturned by a court in London given they are supposed to.be separate legal systems.
It's a pyramid system, not a separate system.
It is fixed with them puting the Scottish system subject to the English Supreme Court because they did not like Scotland having any say.. It will not go down well if overturned and will be more nails in the coffin of the union
It will be a legal decision based upon legal opinion, not politics. It is the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom, not England. Nationalists will try and frame it as you have no doubt, but it would be more nationalist BS, but sure, there are gullible people who will fall for that line.
But the trouble with that and with the system as a whole is that the legal systems are different on each side of the border. It is conceivable that something that is rightly declared illegal under Scottish law could be legal under English law. If the Supreme Court then rules according to English law then justice has not been served in Scotland.
It has as long as Scotland remains part of the United Kingdom. Them's the rules. Of course this will give a boost to Scottish independence and we will see how that plays out but in the interim the Supreme Court is, er, supreme.
If the Scottish courts have indeed just made a ruling, the consequences of which are entirely unclear and result in lawyers arguing amongst themselves as to how it should be interpreted, can't we at least agree on one point from across the Brexit divide?
Namely that the Scottish courts are every bit as cr*p as their football team.
While Prorogation does now seem more inconvenient for the Tories compared with the opposition, its repeal may not look good for the government. LD conference this week, but Lab and Con may bite the dust if a recall happens.
I suspect HM is a bit annoyed with BoZo and JRM for being dragged into this.
They seem to be basing the argument on “the central pillar of good governance principle enshrined in the constitution”.
That seems rather weak to me as a justiciable point: we don’t have a written constitution.
I’d expect the Supreme Court to overturn this.
Hard to argue that a central principle enshrined in our constitution is bad governance though...
I don’t think that’s relevant.
The PM can advise HMQ (he’s her minister) what he likes on this and shes obliged (constitutional monarch) to follow his advice.
Johnson has made a very bad decision for political reasons, poorly advised HMQ and abused the convention. It will likely result in more of our constitution being written down.
But it’s not illegal.
Isnt that for the courts to decide?
The Supreme Court, yes.
I don’t see how Scottish courts have jurisdiction over the Parliament of the whole UK. Only the Court of the whole UK does.
Similarly, I’d expect a Scottish court ruling to have supreme weight over Scottish law and the Scottish Parliament.
The act of prorogation was an act which carried consequences for Scots law, the issue is justiciable in Scotland.
It is appealable in the usual way to the Supreme Court, but they will still be applying Scots law.
Any government act which is unlawful as a matter of Scots law cannot be allowed to proceed, as it infringes the Acts of Union.
If the Supreme court rules HMQ was mislead I would think the entire government will resign on Tuesday and Boris will stand down as Con leader at the same time?
If the Scottish courts have indeed just made a ruling, the consequences of which are entirely unclear and result in lawyers arguing amongst themselves as to how it should be interpreted, can't we at least agree on one point from across the Brexit divide?
Namely that the Scottish courts are every bit as cr*p as their football team.
The significance of this has not sunk in yet. The SC can and possibly will rule that prorogation was lawful- but has the power to say in doing so that the monarch was misled as to reason. If so the PM has to resign- there can be no greater wrong under the constitution. Boris career could be over next week whatever the Brexit outcome.
Yes that makes sense (IANAL obvs). Proroguing parliament is lawful. But the Queen was fooled/deceived into doing it.
Even if the SC overturns this, that is another stain that JRM in particular will have to bear.
Ok watching Judge on BBC news now it is clear no order has been made pending SC appeal. So prorogation not yet quashed and Cherry is talking out of her arse
The summary judgment says an order will be made declaring prorogation null and of no effect.
As far as I can see it doesn't say anything about the Supreme Court appeal.
A video clip of the lead judge was played at 11am on BBC News said the court made no order today. I'm just going off that
He says the court will make no ancillary orders.
But the summary judgment does say an order will be made declaring prorogation null and of no effect.
If the Supreme court rules HMQ was mislead I would think the entire government will resign on Tuesday and Boris will stand down as Con leader at the same time?
And what a sad and ingnominious end to his career that would be!
There’s very little legal or constitutional basis for their judgement that I can see.
Obviously you disagree because you like the decision but it’s a downright weird judgement.
There will be a legal principle that will have been applied, which will become apparent to whomever takes time to read the full judgement. I suspect it will be something similar to the Clean Hands Doctrine, suggesting that the government has prorogued for reasons that are disingenuous and therefore unethical, thereby inequitable to their opponents
If the Supreme court rules HMQ was mislead I would think the entire government will resign on Tuesday and Boris will stand down as Con leader at the same time?
Why exactly is this so sensitive, please? Is it just lying in critical business? Or does the Royal bit add extra iniquity? (Would be interested to know why this is such a big thing, not being a royalist.)
If it now gets overturned in the UK Supreme Court that would be very good long term for Scottish independence.
Agreed. It is a very bad look having Scottish legal decisions overturned by a court in London given they are supposed to.be separate legal systems.
It's a pyramid system, not a separate system.
It is fixed with them puting the Scottish system subject to the English Supreme Court because they did not like Scotland having any say.. It will not go down well if overturned and will be more nails in the coffin of the union
It will be a legal decision based upon legal opinion, not politics. It is the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom, not England. Nationalists will try and frame it as you have no doubt, but it would be more nationalist BS, but sure, there are gullible people who will fall for that line.
But the trouble with that and with the system as a whole is that the legal systems are different on each side of the border. It is conceivable that something that is rightly declared illegal under Scottish law could be legal under English law. If the Supreme Court then rules according to English law then justice has not been served in Scotland.
It seems like a good principle that the government's actions should be lawful in all the UK's legal jurisdictions.
That is because Scots law is different to English law and takes a different approach to its interpretation of constitutional law.
Christ, why can't No 10 talk to its Attorney-General or Solicitor-General before coming out with rubbish like this.
Scottish courts and judges should stick to their jurisdiction - Scotland.
Perhaps this Scottish Court has unintentionally (or, perhaps, intentionally) made Scottish independence inevitable.
By the same argument, Enbglish courts should stick to England and have nothing to do with pan-UK organizations such as the Westminster Parliament. (I do know Mr Johnson called it the English Parliament recently, but legallfy it hasn't regressed that far, EVEL notwithstanding). That would leave UKSC the only court dealing with Parliament, would it not?
Who would the PCP make leader in Opposition (I assume we'd be looking at a coronation and no membership ballot given the fact an election could be days away?)
Does that mean we can get a GE after all! It could be good for dear leader Boris!
Yes. The proroguation is near-irrelevant now. Canceling it might even help Boris.
Those LD numbers should TERRIFY Labour. Swinson is charming and plausible. Labour are about to adopt several insane commie policies. Labour’s position on Brexit is calamitously incoherent.
In a volatile election it’s easy to see the Libs charging through and beating Labour on votes, and maybe even MPs.
LibDems face a dilemma.
Would they prefer 100 seats and a majority Tory government and leave the EU. or 30 seats and a minority Lab government and a chance to remain in the EU?
I definitely prefer the latter.
Can you be sure that it isn't also possible for 100 Lib Dem seats and a minority Lab government and a greater chance to remain in the EU?
It is possible but not if the Tories get 30%+ of the vote.
A) Con/Lab/LD of 35/15/30 gives 392/95/105 Con/Lab/LD of 30/20/30 gives 293/160/133
(I know the caveats of using Baxter for these sort of shares but it illustrates the shape)
Basically the LibDems need to get the same or more than the Tory vote share (which seems very unlikely) in order to get 100+ seats PLUS a minority Labour government.
Scenario A) is not very likely but it is much more likely than scenario .
Interestingly, this is the first brexit issue to get brought up by multiple people in my office for a long time. Anecdotal of course, but here at least more cut through.
If the Scottish courts have indeed just made a ruling, the consequences of which are entirely unclear and result in lawyers arguing amongst themselves as to how it should be interpreted, can't we at least agree on one point from across the Brexit divide?
Namely that the Scottish courts are every bit as cr*p as their football team.
I note people saying Scottish court should only have jurisdiction over Scottish matters (eg representation of the Scottish electorate at Westminster). Hence I make the following modest proposal: Westminster should be reconvened for the next 5 weeks but only with Scottish MPs. I would expect they could get a lot of good stuff done during that period, including a VONC followed by an SNP government in London...
The significance of this has not sunk in yet. The SC can and possibly will rule that prorogation was lawful- but has the power to say in doing so that the monarch was misled as to reason. If so the PM has to resign- there can be no greater wrong under the constitution. Boris career could be over next week whatever the Brexit outcome.
Yes that makes sense (IANAL obvs). Proroguing parliament is lawful. But the Queen was fooled/deceived into doing it.
Even if the SC overturns this, that is another stain that JRM in particular will have to bear.
But particularly egregious to question the integrity of the Scottish judges.
All No.10 had to do was say 'we note the decision and await the judgment of the Supreme Court', or something along those lines. They just can't help themselves.
Who would the PCP make leader in Opposition (I assume we'd be looking at a coronation and no membership ballot given the fact an election could be days away?)
There could be a political party formed which supports the rule of law, judges and convention. As it would seek to build steadily on the status quo, why not call it the conservative party?
The significance of this has not sunk in yet. The SC can and possibly will rule that prorogation was lawful- but has the power to say in doing so that the monarch was misled as to reason. If so the PM has to resign- there can be no greater wrong under the constitution. Boris career could be over next week whatever the Brexit outcome.
Yes that makes sense (IANAL obvs). Proroguing parliament is lawful. But the Queen was fooled/deceived into doing it.
Even if the SC overturns this, that is another stain that JRM in particular will have to bear.
But particularly egregious to question the integrity of the Scottish judges.
All No.10 had to do was say 'we note the decision and await the judgment of the Supreme Court', or something along those lines. They just can't help themselves.
No 10's statement is an absolubte rocket booster for Scottish Independence. A further point - Electoral geography gets much much easier for the Tories without Scotland...
Comments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Manitoba_general_election
The Canadian federal election is expected to be announced today.
Someone will end up in Prison, the only question is which Conservative that might be.
Who will decide whether parliament actually sits?
I dont understand your point, is it that you think the court is wrong to rule it illegal? Or that the court doesnt have the power to rule it illegal?
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1171717556257906688
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1171726506772631553?s=20
That'll be popular, but as they have already binned off NornIron we shouldn't be surprised that they are happy to bin off Scotland
As far as I can see it doesn't say anything about the Supreme Court appeal.
Namely that the Scottish courts are every bit as cr*p as their football team.
Please don't ever leave us - think of the mess we'd be in without you!
There’s very little legal or constitutional basis for their judgement that I can see.
Obviously you disagree because you like the decision but it’s a downright weird judgement.
Christ, why can't No 10 talk to its Attorney-General or Solicitor-General before coming out with rubbish like this.
The Inner Court ought to have made the absence of an implementing order or interdict explicitly clear in its summary.
'My Northern Ireland survey finds the Union on a knife-edge
Last month my polling in Scotland found a small lead for independence. My latest research, a survey in Northern Ireland, brings equally gloomy news for unionists: a slender lead for Irish unification in the event of a referendum on whether or not Northern Ireland should remain part of the United Kingdom.'
https://tinyurl.com/y68tuv7m
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1171728144912519168
Indeed.
While Prorogation does now seem more inconvenient for the Tories compared with the opposition, its repeal may not look good for the government. LD conference this week, but Lab and Con may bite the dust if a recall happens.
I suspect HM is a bit annoyed with BoZo and JRM for being dragged into this.
It is appealable in the usual way to the Supreme Court, but they will still be applying Scots law.
Any government act which is unlawful as a matter of Scots law cannot be allowed to proceed, as it infringes the Acts of Union.
Perhaps this Scottish Court has unintentionally (or, perhaps, intentionally) made Scottish independence inevitable.
If the Supreme court rules HMQ was mislead I would think the entire government will resign on Tuesday and Boris will stand down as Con leader at the same time?
Even if the SC overturns this, that is another stain that JRM in particular will have to bear.
But the summary judgment does say an order will be made declaring prorogation null and of no effect.
Hunt?
A) Con/Lab/LD of 35/15/30 gives 392/95/105
(I know the caveats of using Baxter for these sort of shares but it illustrates the shape)
Basically the LibDems need to get the same or more than the Tory vote share (which seems very unlikely) in order to get 100+ seats PLUS a minority Labour government.
Scenario A) is not very likely but it is much more likely than scenario
https://twitter.com/RhodieOld/status/1171727881413824512?s=20
All No.10 had to do was say 'we note the decision and await the judgment of the Supreme Court', or something along those lines.
They just can't help themselves.