This is just fucking embarrassing. But is it not equally embarrassing that so many in this country take the other side of the argument so instinctively, are so willing to assume that the EU is right and that their own country is wrong? That there is something so immoral in wanting to have democratic control of those making our laws?
I can’t defend this embarrassing rubbish but maybe remainers should think about what they are willing to support too.
Maybe it is slightly questionable, to avoid saying immoral, to insist on keeping complete control over the small part of the laws pertaining customs and trade regulations within NI in London, if the people in NI would be quite consenting to share that part of their laws with their southern neighbours to protect their livelihoods.
Ok. How about we put a customs border between Hamburg and Schleswig Holstein and customs are collected and regulated by London without the say of people in Schleswig Holstein? Forever. Despite what 82 million people in Germany decide by a vote. All ok?
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
So as I return from our 24 day trans Atlantic cruise having enjoyed clear blue skies at all our ports, dined on the open deck as we slipped moorings in Manhattan and sailed away in the early evening experiencing NewYork in all it's
Thanks Ben and what amazes me is how Boris is still leading the polls
Not just leading but extending.
Indeed
LOL The 20th Century was Conservative Century because their conservativism was business friendly, and through that pro EU. It wouldn’t do the dirty on, the police, the queen, the Kurd allies, nor expel and repel its own moderate members, instead fiercely proud of being a broad church and a conservative family. The Boris Premiership is currently ripping up the roots of the trees in the Conservative forest. all thanks to the genius of Cummings crouched in a broom cupboard copying the strategy out of Mein Kampf like the amateur he is.
Yeah. This will end well If you can’t see what’s coming just trust what I’m saying 😁
But every time an argument is made like that the response is Jeremy Corbyn
If Labour get a sensible leader they would walk into power
No deal brexit v Jeremy corbyn.
No deal, destruction of manufacturing industry, destruction of farming industry, doubling of debt and trashing of economy
Corbyn, all the investment borrowing the Tories are promising plus everyone gets vote on whether to proceed with a deal brexit or remain.
If anyone thinks the voters of this country will choose no deal over Corbyn they are, to borrow Richard Tyndall's phrase, deranged.
The problem is that the election will be Boris wanting a deal and no deal if all else fails while Corbyn repulses so many and will be in a battle for remain vote with the Lib Dems
Welcome back. I suggest you need to do a little reading up on the master plan. 🙂
After a decade causing a mess in health, education and policing, housing, they now trump Labour, in Labour heartlands, promising the same level of spending and same policies as Labour, all thanks to the genius of Cummings crouched in a broom cupboard copying the strategy out of Mein Kampf like the amateur he is.
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
It still remains the fact that the only thing that guarantee No Deal for the next 25-30 years is a DEAL!
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
It is also inaccurate. The UK did not win two world wars. It was on the winning side twice.
The UK had help both times. (Also just reinforcing the fact that it was not England wot won it)
Good heavens - we clearly had little help from the republic of Ireland but yes we had many allies from former colonies. The ad is very unpleasant - it's a symptom of the polarised nation we are. However, your take is pretty pathetic.
So the USA is still viewed as a former colony?
Didn't Russia chip in at some point?
The first time, yes, but they gave up after three years. The second time, not really, sort of? It was everyone’s favourite country, the Soviet Union, albeit the RFSFR was a key member.
So as I return from our 24 day trans Atlantic cruise having enjoyed clear blue skies at all our ports, dined on the open deck as we slipped moorings in Manhattan and sailed away in the early evening experiencing NewYork in all it's
Thanks Ben and what amazes me is how Boris is still leading the polls
Not just leading but extending.
Indeed
LOL The 20th Century was Conservative Century because their conservativism was business friendly, and through that pro EU. It wouldn’t do the dirty on, the police, the queen, the Kurd allies, nor expel and repel its own moderate members, instead fiercely proud of being a broad church and a conservative family. The Boris Premiership is currently ripping up the roots of the trees in the Conservative forest. all thanks to the genius of Cummings crouched in a broom cupboard copying the strategy out of Mein Kampf like the amateur he is.
Yeah. This will end well If you can’t see what’s coming just trust what I’m saying 😁
But every time an argument is made like that the response is Jeremy Corbyn
If Labour get a sensible leader they would walk into power
No deal brexit v Jeremy corbyn.
No deal, destruction of manufacturing industry, destruction of farming industry, doubling of debt and trashing of economy
Corbyn, all the investment borrowing the Tories are promising plus everyone gets vote on whether to proceed with a deal brexit or remain.
If anyone thinks the voters of this country will choose no deal over Corbyn they are, to borrow Richard Tyndall's phrase, deranged.
The problem is that the election will be Boris wanting a deal and no deal if all else fails while Corbyn repulses so many and will be in a battle for remain vote with the Lib Dems
Welcome back. I suggest you need to do a little reading up on the master plan. 🙂
After a decade causing a mess in health, education and policing, housing, they now trump Labour, in Labour heartlands, promising the same level of spending and same policies as Labour, all thanks to the genius of Cummings crouched in a broom cupboard copying the strategy out of Mein Kampf like the amateur he is.
Yeah. This will work LOL
Thank you but I do not share your opinion on Boris v Corbyn's policies.
This is just fucking embarrassing. But is it not equally embarrassing that so many in this country take the other side of the argument so instinctively, are so willing to assume that the EU is right and that their own country is wrong? That there is something so immoral in wanting to have democratic control of those making our laws?
I can’t defend this embarrassing rubbish but maybe remainers should think about what they are willing to support too.
Maybe it is slightly questionable, to avoid saying immoral, to insist on keeping complete control over the small part of the laws pertaining customs and trade regulations within NI in London, if the people in NI would be quite consenting to share that part of their laws with their southern neighbours to protect their livelihoods.
You don't get a say, nor should you have a say. Butt out. You'll end up starting a war.
So as I return from our 24 day trans Atlantic cruise having enjoyed clear blue skies at all our ports, dined on the open deck as we slipped moorings in Manhattan and sailed away in the early evening experiencing NewYork in all it's
Thanks Ben and what amazes me is how Boris is still leading the polls
Not just leading but extending.
Indeed
LOL The 20th Century was Conservative Century because their conservativism was business friendly, and through that pro EU. It wouldn’t do the dirty on, the police, the queen, the Kurd allies, nor expel and repel its own moderate members, instead fiercely proud of being a broad church and a conservative family. The Boris Premiership is currently ripping up the roots of the trees in the Conservative forest. all thanks to the genius of Cummings crouched in a broom cupboard copying the strategy out of Mein Kampf like the amateur he is.
Yeah. This will end well If you can’t see what’s coming just trust what I’m saying 😁
But every time an argument is made like that the response is Jeremy Corbyn
If Labour get a sensible leader they would walk into power
No deal brexit v Jeremy corbyn.
No deal, destruction of manufacturing industry, destruction of farming industry, doubling of debt and trashing of economy
Corbyn, all the investment borrowing the Tories are promising plus everyone gets vote on whether to proceed with a deal brexit or remain.
If anyone thinks the voters of this country will choose no deal over Corbyn they are, to borrow Richard Tyndall's phrase, deranged.
The problem is that the election will be Boris wanting a deal and no deal if all else fails while Corbyn repulses so many and will be in a battle for remain vote with the Lib Dems
Boris will have an interesting decsion to make on how to frame the Tory manifesto.
Does he go for No Deal to pull the rug from TBP? If so how do the moderate Tory MPs stand on that platform?
Does he go for Deal preferred with No Deal if necessary? In other words, the platform that has just become a Titanic faliure.
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
It still remains the fact that the only thing that guarantee No Deal for the next 25-30 years is a DEAL!
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
It still remains the fact that the only thing that guarantee No Deal for the next 25-30 years is a DEAL!
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
How does a Deal guarantee that No Deal will never happen?
A deal only means a transition period, of barely more than a year; even if a deal were to pass tomorrow, we end up at this exact same cliff-edge by the end of 2020, except with even less leverage than we do now.
"We don't want to fight but by jingo if we do, We've got the ships, we've got the men, and got the money too!"
Starship Troopers?
Part of the Chorus from McDermott's War Song and the only bit I can remember.
I did read Heinlein's Starship Troopers. The movie version was a travesty of the novel. The novel was bad enough in its own way, but the movie.....
Hollywood can really mess up any book.
Starship Troopers is a brilliant movie, made from a very dull book. Paul Verhoeven was right to tear up the script, which was a wordy hymn to facism beloved by the American military, and to make an over the top satire of Facism with gratuitous nudity and gore. He is a top director.
People love Starship Troopers BECAUSE it is Fascist. Its supposed allegorical status means we are free to like the Fascism, despite the movie being clearly Fascist.
For a Fascist movie, it is very clever.
It is a SATIRE of Fascism!
I think Verhoeven's attitude is more ambiguous. He's on record as saying that despite living through WWII, the Nazi occupation and his parents almost being killed by Allied bombing due to living beside V1 & V2 bases, he found the whole thing marvellously exciting.
This is just fucking embarrassing. But is it not equally embarrassing that so many in this country take the other side of the argument so instinctively, are so willing to assume that the EU is right and that their own country is wrong? That there is something so immoral in wanting to have democratic control of those making our laws?
I can’t defend this embarrassing rubbish but maybe remainers should think about what they are willing to support too.
Maybe it is slightly questionable, to avoid saying immoral, to insist on keeping complete control over the small part of the laws pertaining customs and trade regulations within NI in London, if the people in NI would be quite consenting to share that part of their laws with their southern neighbours to protect their livelihoods.
You don't get a say, nor should you have a say. Butt out. You'll end up starting a war.
YET AGAIN.
You're an embarrassment when drunk - please just log off.
"We don't want to fight but by jingo if we do, We've got the ships, we've got the men, and got the money too!"
Starship Troopers?
Part of the Chorus from McDermott's War Song and the only bit I can remember.
I did read Heinlein's Starship Troopers. The movie version was a travesty of the novel. The novel was bad enough in its own way, but the movie.....
Hollywood can really mess up any book.
Starship Troopers is a brilliant movie, made from a very dull book. Paul Verhoeven was right to tear up the script, which was a wordy hymn to facism beloved by the American military, and to make an over the top satire of Facism with gratuitous nudity and gore. He is a top director.
People love Starship Troopers BECAUSE it is Fascist. Its supposed allegorical status means we are free to like the Fascism, despite the movie being clearly Fascist.
For a Fascist movie, it is very clever.
That is why it is such a rich and subtley subversive satire. We cheer on the Fascists as they wage a war of extermination and conquest. As dangerous in it's own way as Triumph of the Will.
It has been very influential. Many subsequent Hollywood films have the same fascistic themography, without Verhoeven's knowing satire.
So as I return from our 24 day trans Atlantic cruise having enjoyed clear blue skies at all our ports, dined on the open deck as we slipped moorings in Manhattan and sailed away in the early evening experiencing NewYork in all it's
Thanks Ben and what amazes me is how Boris is still leading the polls
Not just leading but extending.
Indeed
LOL The 20th Century was Conservative Century because their conservativism was business friendly, and through that pro EU. It wouldn’t do the dirty on, the police, the queen, the Kurd allies, nor expel and repel its own moderate members, instead fiercely proud of being a broad church and a conservative family. The Boris Premiership is currently ripping up the roots of the trees in the Conservative forest. all thanks to the genius of Cummings crouched in a broom cupboard copying the strategy out of Mein Kampf like the amateur he is.
Yeah. This will end well If you can’t see what’s coming just trust what I’m saying 😁
But every time an argument is made like that the response is Jeremy Corbyn
If Labour get a sensible leader they would walk into power
No deal brexit v Jeremy corbyn.
No deal, destruction of manufacturing industry, destruction of farming industry, doubling of debt and trashing of economy
Corbyn, all the investment borrowing the Tories are promising plus everyone gets vote on whether to proceed with a deal brexit or remain.
If anyone thinks the voters of this country will choose no deal over Corbyn they are, to borrow Richard Tyndall's phrase, deranged.
The problem is that the election will be Boris wanting a deal and no deal if all else fails while Corbyn repulses so many and will be in a battle for remain vote with the Lib Dems
Boris will have an interesting decsion to make on how to frame the Tory manifesto.
Does he go for No Deal to pull the rug from TBP? If so how do the moderate Tory MPs stand on that platform?
Does he go for Deal preferred with No Deal if necessary? In other words, the platform that has just become a Titanic faliure.
Neither of these are going to campaign well imo.
I suspect that the 21 will be replaced with brexiteer mps but in the end Corbyn will lose labour any chance of power
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
It still remains the fact that the only thing that guarantee No Deal for the next 25-30 years is a DEAL!
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
How does a Deal guarantee that No Deal will never happen?
A deal only means a transition period, of barely more than a year; even if the deal passes tomorrow, we end up at this exact same cliff-edge by the end of 2020, except with even less leverage than we do now.
I didn't say it will never happen but clearly if we pass a deal, moved to a new settlement that honours the leave vote and but leaves in an orderly way a lot of the current anxiety (on both sides) will simmer down.
I then imagine the conversation will turn to other events and our new relationship will bed in.
I can't see ther being much desire to revisit things for a generation - And I guess Remainers like Blair agree which is why they are so obsessed about stopping Brexit before it happens as Remain/Leave is a very different conversation to Keep Out/Rejoin,
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
It still remains the fact that the only thing that guarantee No Deal for the next 25-30 years is a DEAL!
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
At the risk of repeating myself a 2nd referendum: No Deal v Deal v Remain, decided via STV would settle the issue for a generation.
Not as many toys out of the pram tonight as last time either!
Last time turns out to have been a strop over nothing, because those throwing the toys out of the pram chose to do nothing with the extra time they were granted.
OK - going TOTALLY off-topic (more so than normal) I will leave you all with Donald Trump playing Boogie-woggie on the St Pancras public piano (if your foot is not tapping by about a minute in, make an appointment with a specialist to get it checked)
Good morning, good afternoon and Goodnight (one for Sunil there)
Boris will have an interesting decsion to make on how to frame the Tory manifesto.
Does he go for No Deal to pull the rug from TBP? If so how do the moderate Tory MPs stand on that platform?
Does he go for Deal preferred with No Deal if necessary? In other words, the platform that has just become a Titanic faliure.
Neither of these are going to campaign well imo.
I think he still runs on Deal but No Deal If Necessary.
He gets to ride both horses, because the people who want No Deal think it'll be necessary, while the people who want a deal will tend to think they'll work something out. He can blame the current car crash on parliament taking No Deal off the table. The voters have swallowed more obviously bogus renegotiation stories than that before.
To answer the Thread Question - I really don't like the tweet/poster. However it really doesn't matter what we think - it's how it plays to the masses. I suspect it will slot into people's confirmation bias and not change any views. The FBPEs will rant and the Brexit Party supporters will quietly approve of it.
Boris will have an interesting decsion to make on how to frame the Tory manifesto.
Does he go for No Deal to pull the rug from TBP? If so how do the moderate Tory MPs stand on that platform?
Does he go for Deal preferred with No Deal if necessary? In other words, the platform that has just become a Titanic faliure.
Neither of these are going to campaign well imo.
I think he still runs on Deal but No Deal If Necessary.
He gets to ride both horses, because the people who want No Deal think it'll be necessary, while the people who want a deal will tend to think they'll work something out. He can blame the current car crash on parliament taking No Deal off the table. The voters have swallowed more obviously bogus renegotiation stories than that before.
This is just fucking embarrassing. But is it not equally embarrassing that so many in this country take the other side of the argument so instinctively, are so willing to assume that the EU is right and that their own country is wrong? That there is something so immoral in wanting to have democratic control of those making our laws?
I can’t defend this embarrassing rubbish but maybe remainers should think about what they are willing to support too.
Maybe it is slightly questionable, to avoid saying immoral, to insist on keeping complete control over the small part of the laws pertaining customs and trade regulations within NI in London, if the people in NI would be quite consenting to share that part of their laws with their southern neighbours to protect their livelihoods.
You don't get a say, nor should you have a say. Butt out. You'll end up starting a war.
YET AGAIN.
I think this comment should be deleted, and the poster should be blacklisted.
This is just fucking embarrassing. But is it not equally embarrassing that so many in this country take the other side of the argument so instinctively, are so willing to assume that the EU is right and that their own country is wrong? That there is something so immoral in wanting to have democratic control of those making our laws?
I can’t defend this embarrassing rubbish but maybe remainers should think about what they are willing to support too.
Maybe it is slightly questionable, to avoid saying immoral, to insist on keeping complete control over the small part of the laws pertaining customs and trade regulations within NI in London, if the people in NI would be quite consenting to share that part of their laws with their southern neighbours to protect their livelihoods.
You don't get a say, nor should you have a say. Butt out. You'll end up starting a war.
YET AGAIN.
I (we) don't want to get a say.
It is being proposed to give the people of NI the final, decisive say.
LOL The 20th Century was Conservative Century because their conservativism was business friendly, and through that pro EU. It wouldn’t do the dirty on, the police, the queen, the Kurd allies, nor expel and repel its own moderate members, instead fiercely proud of being a broad church and a conservative family. The Boris Premiership is currently ripping up the roots of the trees in the Conservative forest. all thanks to the genius of Cummings crouched in a broom cupboard copying the strategy out of Mein Kampf like the amateur he is.
Yeah. This will end well If you can’t see what’s coming just trust what I’m saying 😁
But every time an argument is made like that the response is Jeremy Corbyn
If Labour get a sensible leader they would walk into power
No deal brexit v Jeremy corbyn.
No deal, destruction of manufacturing industry, destruction of farming industry, doubling of debt and trashing of economy
Corbyn, all the investment borrowing the Tories are promising plus everyone gets vote on whether to proceed with a deal brexit or remain.
If anyone thinks the voters of this country will choose no deal over Corbyn they are, to borrow Richard Tyndall's phrase, deranged.
The problem is that the election will be Boris wanting a deal and no deal if all else fails while Corbyn repulses so many and will be in a battle for remain vote with the Lib Dems
Boris will have an interesting decsion to make on how to frame the Tory manifesto.
Does he go for No Deal to pull the rug from TBP? If so how do the moderate Tory MPs stand on that platform?
Does he go for Deal preferred with No Deal if necessary? In other words, the platform that has just become a Titanic faliure.
Neither of these are going to campaign well imo.
I suspect that the 21 will be replaced with brexiteer mps but in the end Corbyn will lose labour any chance of power
I agree about the 21 (although some of those will retain their seats). I was thinking more about the many other Tory MPs who see No Deal as unacceptable...
My MP in North Dorset is one example - he signed Philip Hammond's 'No Deal' letter to Boris but wasn't brave enough to join the Rebel Alliance for the Benn Act vote. As far as I know he is still set against No Deal
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
It still remains the fact that the only thing that guarantee No Deal for the next 25-30 years is a DEAL!
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
At the risk of repeating myself a 2nd referendum: No Deal v Deal v Remain, decided via STV would settle the issue for a generation.
Nope.
Remain lost the referendum and in this country (unlike what they do elsewhere) we don't "revisit" demorcratic decisions until the first one has been implemented.
This is just fucking embarrassing. But is it not equally embarrassing that so many in this country take the other side of the argument so instinctively, are so willing to assume that the EU is right and that their own country is wrong? That there is something so immoral in wanting to have democratic control of those making our laws?
I can’t defend this embarrassing rubbish but maybe remainers should think about what they are willing to support too.
Maybe it is slightly questionable, to avoid saying immoral, to insist on keeping complete control over the small part of the laws pertaining customs and trade regulations within NI in London, if the people in NI would be quite consenting to share that part of their laws with their southern neighbours to protect their livelihoods.
You don't get a say, nor should you have a say. Butt out. You'll end up starting a war.
YET AGAIN.
I (we) don't want to get a say.
It is being proposed to give the people of NI the final, decisive say.
So as I return from our 24 day trans Atlantic cruise having enjoyed clear blue skies at all our ports, dined on the open deck as we slipped moorings in Manhattan and sailed away in the early evening experiencing NewYork in all it's splendour and then in contrast as we sailed to Newport, Boston, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, the most glorious 'fall colours', I see that Boris is confounding his critics and is causing those who want to remain a real nervous breakdown.
The 11 sea days we had rather reflected brexit with calm seas giving way to storm force and ever deepening lows, fierce thunder storms with lightning shooting down the side of the dining room windows and then, to cap it all, and so in tune with Brexit, we entered the deepest impenetrable fog as we entered the English channel with the constant ship's fog horn making it difficult to catch sleep
All in all 8,500 miles of fun and enjoyment on a ship with virtually 95% British passengers (unusual in itself) and no one talked of Brexit at all
And for those who like trivia the head chef informed us yesterday they prepare over 22,000 meals every day, year after year, with no exceptions, for the 4,000 plus passengers and crew
Pleased to be back and hope to contribute from time to time
Welcome back Big_G! I'm afraid nothing has improved much while you've been away, it's all just got sillier.
Thanks Ben and what amazes me is how Boris is still leading the polls
An amazement which should dissipate on the mention of two words - Jeremy and Corbyn.
Welcome back, and good night.
It looks increasingly likely that Johnson will win a November Brexit GE.
Only if, facing that prospect, Labour voters do not run back to the comforting arms of the Jezziah like they did last time.
A lot of people saying they won't, but then it is easy to say that until a campaign starts and you stare into the possibility of a 100 seat Tory majority led by Boris 'no deal' Johnson. The LDs may be in for a rude awakening about how practical the British electorate can be in these situations.
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
It still remains the fact that the only thing that guarantee No Deal for the next 25-30 years is a DEAL!
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
At the risk of repeating myself a 2nd referendum: No Deal v Deal v Remain, decided via STV would settle the issue for a generation.
Nope.
Remain lost the referendum and in this country (unlike what they do elsewhere) we don't "revisit" demorcratic decisions until the first one has been implemented.
I appreciate you expect Remain to win the 2nd Ref and that must be hard for you, but trust me it's coming.
Thanks Ben and what amazes me is how Boris is still leading the polls
Not just leading but extending.
Indeed
LOL The 20th Century was Conservative Century because their conservativism was business friendly, and through that pro EU. It wouldn’t do the dirty on, the police, the queen, the Kurd allies, nor expel and repel its own moderate members, instead fiercely proud of being a broad church and a conservative family. The Boris Premiership is currently ripping up the roots of the trees in the Conservative forest. all thanks to the genius of Cummings crouched in a broom cupboard copying the strategy out of Mein Kampf like the amateur he is. 😁
But every time an argument is made like that the response is Jeremy Corbyn
No deal brexit v Jeremy corbyn.
No deal, destruction of manufacturing industry, destruction of farming industry, doubling of debt and trashing of economy
Corbyn, all the investment borrowing the Tories are promising plus everyone gets vote on whether to proceed with a deal brexit or remain.
If anyone thinks the voters of this country will choose no deal over Corbyn they are, to borrow Richard Tyndall's phrase, deranged.
The problem is that the election will be Boris wanting a deal and no deal if all else fails while Corbyn repulses so many and will be in a battle for remain vote with the Lib Dems
I suggest you need to do a little reading up on the master plan. 🙂
After a decade causing a mess in health, education and policing, housing, they now trump Labour, in Labour heartlands, promising the same level of spending and same policies as Labour,
Thank you but I do not share your opinion on Boris v Corbyn's policies.
They are as directly opposite as you can get
The campaigns and promises will be as directly opposite as you can get? 😆
They are identical on insane spending commitments of money the country won’t have.
"We don't want to fight but by jingo if we do, We've got the ships, we've got the men, and got the money too!"
Starship Troopers?
Part of the Chorus from McDermott's War Song and the only bit I can remember.
I did read Heinlein's Starship Troopers. The movie version was a travesty of the novel. The novel was bad enough in its own way, but the movie.....
Hollywood can really mess up any book.
Starship Troopers is a brilliant movie, made from a very dull book. Paul Verhoeven was right to tear up the script, which was a wordy hymn to facism beloved by the American military, and to make an over the top satire of Facism with gratuitous nudity and gore. He is a top director.
People love Starship Troopers BECAUSE it is Fascist. Its supposed allegorical status means we are free to like the Fascism, despite the movie being clearly Fascist.
For a Fascist movie, it is very clever.
It is a SATIRE of Fascism!
I think Verhoeven's attitude is more ambiguous. He's on record as saying that despite living through WWII, the Nazi occupation and his parents almost being killed by Allied bombing due to living beside V1 & V2 bases, he found the whole thing marvellously exciting.
I don't think so!
//Verhoeven understands this dynamic all too well; in 1943, when he was five, his family moved to the Hague, then the base for Nazi operations in The Netherlands during World War II. When the war ended, Verhoeven believed he’d never again experience life under totalitarianism. Now, he thinks it’s beginning to reappear in America. He intended Starship Troopers to be fantasy with a subversive edge. Twenty years on, it just seems like a depressing and accurate portrayal of a world where normal things have been replaced by absurd caricatures, like the one currently occupying the White House. Verhoeven’s campy vision captured the way fascism turns reality into reality TV. https://www.interviewmagazine.com/film/starship-troopers-fascist-satire-coming-true
Thanks Ben and what amazes me is how Boris is still leading the polls
Not just leading but extending.
Indeed
LOL The 20th Century was Conservative Century because their conservativism was business friendly, and through that pro EU. It wouldn’t do the dirty on, the police, the queen, the Kurd allies, nor expel and repel its own moderate members, instead fiercely proud of being a broad church and a conservative family. The Boris Premiership is currently ripping up the roots of the trees in the Conservative forest. all thanks to the genius of Cummings crouched in a broom cupboard copying the strategy out of Mein Kampf like the amateur he is. 😁
But every time an argument is made like that the response is Jeremy Corbyn
No deal brexit v Jeremy corbyn.
No deal, destruction of manufacturing industry, destruction of farming industry, doubling of debt and trashing of economy
Corbyn, all the investment borrowing the Tories are promising plus everyone gets vote on whether to proceed with a deal brexit or remain.
If anyone thinks the voters of this country will choose no deal over Corbyn they are, to borrow Richard Tyndall's phrase, deranged.
The problem is that the election will be Boris wanting a deal and no deal if all else fails while Corbyn repulses so many and will be in a battle for remain vote with the Lib Dems
I suggest you need to do a little reading up on the master plan. 🙂
After a decade causing a mess in health, education and policing, housing, they now trump Labour, in Labour heartlands, promising the same level of spending and same policies as Labour,
Thank you but I do not share your opinion on Boris v Corbyn's policies.
They are as directly opposite as you can get
The campaigns and promises will be as directly opposite as you can get? 😆
They are identical on insane spending commitments of money the country won’t have.
This is just fucking embarrassing. But is it not equally embarrassing that so many in this country take the other side of the argument so instinctively, are so willing to assume that the EU is right and that their own country is wrong? That there is something so immoral in wanting to have democratic control of those making our laws?
I can’t defend this embarrassing rubbish but maybe remainers should think about what they are willing to support too.
Maybe it is slightly questionable, to avoid saying immoral, to insist on keeping complete control over the small part of the laws pertaining customs and trade regulations within NI in London, if the people in NI would be quite consenting to share that part of their laws with their southern neighbours to protect their livelihoods.
Ok. How about we put a customs border between Hamburg and Schleswig Holstein and customs are collected and regulated by London without the say of people in Schleswig Holstein? Forever. Despite what 82 million people in Germany decide by a vote. All ok?
I'm struggling to follow your argument.
My proposal was to give the people of NI, the people who are affected by the decision to be made, the say.
My proposal is to not give the people or the politicians in in the EU, and not the people or the politicians in Great Britain, the say.
I argue that the decision should be made by the people in NI, in an act of direct democracy, a plebiscite.
Again, disingenuous. It means Boris Brexit deal. We have one deal available (May's), and many others are possible.
Your response is disingenuous. A deal that can pass this parliament is essentially impossible, obviously there are many theoretically possible deals, but issue is around what things are on the table, or can be in the next week, which will see a deal done.
None of which matters, since BoJo the incredible doofus wants an election, not a deal, the Jezziah and the Libdemites don't want Boris to get a deal and won't back it if he did, and the EU doesn't want a new deal either, they want the old one or a change in government. It's just that simple - having done some admirably hard work to get an initial deal, no one cares enough to get a new one.
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
It still remains the fact that the only thing that guarantee No Deal for the next 25-30 years is a DEAL!
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
At the risk of repeating myself a 2nd referendum: No Deal v Deal v Remain, decided via STV would settle the issue for a generation.
Nope.
Remain lost the referendum and in this country (unlike what they do elsewhere) we don't "revisit" demorcratic decisions until the first one has been implemented.
Which is a problem when the only way to implement the first referendum result is to set alight everything we've spent 40 years working on.
This is just fucking embarrassing. But is it not equally embarrassing that so many in this country take the other side of the argument so instinctively, are so willing to assume that the EU is right and that their own country is wrong? That there is something so immoral in wanting to have democratic control of those making our laws?
I can’t defend this embarrassing rubbish but maybe remainers should think about what they are willing to support too.
Maybe it is slightly questionable, to avoid saying immoral, to insist on keeping complete control over the small part of the laws pertaining customs and trade regulations within NI in London, if the people in NI would be quite consenting to share that part of their laws with their southern neighbours to protect their livelihoods.
You don't get a say, nor should you have a say. Butt out. You'll end up starting a war.
YET AGAIN.
I (we) don't want to get a say.
It is being proposed to give the people of NI the final, decisive say.
But what referenda take place in Northern Ireland is a matter of British domestic politics. Other EU members are entitled to their opinion, and, if they wish, to pursue their opinion in negotiations pertaining to the future relationship between the UK and the EU. But they must understand that if no agreement is reached, the UK is perfectly entitled to leave without a withdrawal agreement in place.
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
It still remains the fact that the only thing that guarantee No Deal for the next 25-30 years is a DEAL!
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
At the risk of repeating myself a 2nd referendum: No Deal v Deal v Remain, decided via STV would settle the issue for a generation.
Nope.
Remain lost the referendum and in this country (unlike what they do elsewhere) we don't "revisit" demorcratic decisions until the first one has been implemented.
"We don't "revisit" democratic decisions until the first one has been implemented."
Where did that come from? It's a made up recent creation by individuals who deny people the right to change to change their mind. It is profoundly undemocratic.
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
It still remains the fact that the only thing that guarantee No Deal for the next 25-30 years is a DEAL!
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
How does a Deal guarantee that No Deal will never happen?
A deal only means a transition period, of barely more than a year; even if the deal passes tomorrow, we end up at this exact same cliff-edge by the end of 2020, except with even less leverage than we do now.
I didn't say it will never happen but clearly if we pass a deal, moved to a new settlement that honours the leave vote and but leaves in an orderly way a lot of the current anxiety (on both sides) will simmer down.
I then imagine the conversation will turn to other events and our new relationship will bed in.
I can't see ther being much desire to revisit things for a generation - And I guess Remainers like Blair agree which is why they are so obsessed about stopping Brexit before it happens as Remain/Leave is a very different conversation to Keep Out/Rejoin,
Maybe, with a deal, there won't be a huge clamour to Rejoin - but there WILL be a huge clamour to keep extending the transition period, if no permanent deal can be negotiated. Again, the cliff-edge of leaving the Transition without a deal would be just as severe as leaving the EU itself without a deal.
"We don't want to fight but by jingo if we do, We've got the ships, we've got the men, and got the money too!"
Starship Troopers?
Part of the Chorus from McDermott's War Song and the only bit I can remember.
I did read Heinlein's Starship Troopers. The movie version was a travesty of the novel. The novel was bad enough in its own way, but the movie.....
Hollywood can really mess up any book.
Starship Troopers is a brilliant movie, made from a very dull book. Paul Verhoeven was right to tear up the script, which was a wordy hymn to facism beloved by the American military, and to make an over the top satire of Facism with gratuitous nudity and gore. He is a top director.
People love Starship Troopers BECAUSE it is Fascist. Its supposed allegorical status means we are free to like the Fascism, despite the movie being clearly Fascist.
For a Fascist movie, it is very clever.
That is why it is such a rich and subtley subversive satire. We cheer on the Fascists as they wage a war of extermination and conquest. As dangerous in it's own way as Triumph of the Will.
It has been very influential. Many subsequent Hollywood films have the same fascistic themography, without Verhoeven's knowing satire.
One of the best 'bad' movies of all time. I won't post the musical number from the direct to dvd third movie again, but its worth seeing it every time.
This is just fucking embarrassing. But is it not equally embarrassing that so many in this country take the other side of the argument so instinctively, are so willing to assume that the EU is right and that their own country is wrong? That there is something so immoral in wanting to have democratic control of those making our laws?
I can’t defend this embarrassing rubbish but maybe remainers should think about what they are willing to support too.
Maybe it is slightly questionable, to avoid saying immoral, to insist on keeping complete control over the small part of the laws pertaining customs and trade regulations within NI in London, if the people in NI would be quite consenting to share that part of their laws with their southern neighbours to protect their livelihoods.
Ok. How about we put a customs border between Hamburg and Schleswig Holstein and customs are collected and regulated by London without the say of people in Schleswig Holstein? Forever. Despite what 82 million people in Germany decide by a vote. All ok?
I'm struggling to follow your argument.
My proposal was to give the people of NI, the people who are affected by the decision to be made, the say.
My proposal is to not give the people or the politicians in in the EU, and not the people or the politicians in Great Britain, the say.
I argue that the decision should be made by the people in NI, in an act of direct democracy, a plebiscite.
Indeed, the only way to eliminate customs barriers is to have a Customs Union. As having no barriers and frictionless trade has been government policy, Customs Union seems the most accurate description of government policy.
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
It still remains the fact that the only thing that guarantee No Deal for the next 25-30 years is a DEAL!
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
At the risk of repeating myself a 2nd referendum: No Deal v Deal v Remain, decided via STV would settle the issue for a generation.
Nope.
Remain lost the referendum and in this country (unlike what they do elsewhere) we don't "revisit" demorcratic decisions until the first one has been implemented.
Nope
In this country, an advisory referendum is advisory. And the Benn Act is law
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
It still remains the fact that the only thing that guarantee No Deal for the next 25-30 years is a DEAL!
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
At the risk of repeating myself a 2nd referendum: No Deal v Deal v Remain, decided via STV would settle the issue for a generation.
Nope.
Remain lost the referendum and in this country (unlike what they do elsewhere) we don't "revisit" demorcratic decisions until the first one has been implemented.
"We don't "revisit" democratic decisions until the first one has been implemented."
Where did that come from? It's a made up recent creation by individuals who deny people the right to change to change their mind. It is profoundly undemocratic.
We had a referendum in Wales on an assembly- the losers accepted the result.
That was different to the Scottish and EU referendums where the politicians representing the losers refused to accept the democratic vote.
What for? What really would be the point? Are they proposing an extension for extensions sake? Eight more months of paralysis and indecision?
Give us three months, and a strongly worded request to just hold a GE in November. It might not sort anything, but it just might. And its got to be better than the current storm engulfing all sides with no end in sight.
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
It still remains the fact that the only thing that guarantee No Deal for the next 25-30 years is a DEAL!
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
At the risk of repeating myself a 2nd referendum: No Deal v Deal v Remain, decided via STV would settle the issue for a generation.
Nope.
Remain lost the referendum and in this country (unlike what they do elsewhere) we don't "revisit" demorcratic decisions until the first one has been implemented.
"We don't "revisit" democratic decisions until the first one has been implemented."
Where did that come from? It's a made up recent creation by individuals who deny people the right to change to change their mind. It is profoundly undemocratic.
You know full well this is nonsense. If this principle is not upheld, any verdict delivered by the people but unpopular with those who hold power can simply be delayed until the political weather changes, or (worse) until the people who were against it in the first place have used every tactic available to them to prove the 'impossibility' of the task.
Not as many toys out of the pram tonight as last time either!
Last time turns out to have been a strop over nothing, because those throwing the toys out of the pram chose to do nothing with the extra time they were granted.
Well, that was partly because they'd already achieved the one thing they were able to agree on at the time, delaying (not stopping) no deal through the Benn Act. Ok there was (and probably remains even now) concern Boris would wriggle out of it somehow, but given they desperately don't want to have to compromise themselves by backing Corbyn/caretaker PM unless they have zero choices left, there was not much for them to focus on having already gotten the Benn Act.
"We don't want to fight but by jingo if we do, We've got the ships, we've got the men, and got the money too!"
Starship Troopers?
Part of the Chorus from McDermott's War Song and the only bit I can remember.
I did read Heinlein's Starship Troopers. The movie version was a travesty of the novel. The novel was bad enough in its own way, but the movie.....
Hollywood can really mess up any book.
Starship Troopers is a brilliant movie, made from a very dull book. Paul Verhoeven was right to tear up the script, which was a wordy hymn to facism beloved by the American military, and to make an over the top satire of Facism with gratuitous nudity and gore. He is a top director.
People love Starship Troopers BECAUSE it is Fascist. Its supposed allegorical status means we are free to like the Fascism, despite the movie being clearly Fascist.
For a Fascist movie, it is very clever.
That is why it is such a rich and subtley subversive satire. We cheer on the Fascists as they wage a war of extermination and conquest. As dangerous in it's own way as Triumph of the Will.
It has been very influential. Many subsequent Hollywood films have the same fascistic themography, without Verhoeven's knowing satire.
One of the best 'bad' movies of all time. I won't post the musical number from the direct to dvd third movie again, but its worth seeing it every time.
Surely we can all agree that Starship Troopers is a better movie than Die Hard?
"We don't want to fight but by jingo if we do, We've got the ships, we've got the men, and got the money too!"
Starship Troopers?
Part of the Chorus from McDermott's War Song and the only bit I can remember.
I did read Heinlein's Starship Troopers. The movie version was a travesty of the novel. The novel was bad enough in its own way, but the movie.....
Hollywood can really mess up any book.
Starship Troopers is a brilliant movie, made from a very dull book. Paul Verhoeven was right to tear up the script, which was a wordy hymn to facism beloved by the American military, and to make an over the top satire of Facism with gratuitous nudity and gore. He is a top director.
People love Starship Troopers BECAUSE it is Fascist. Its supposed allegorical status means we are free to like the Fascism, despite the movie being clearly Fascist.
For a Fascist movie, it is very clever.
It is a SATIRE of Fascism!
I think Verhoeven's attitude is more ambiguous. He's on record as saying that despite living through WWII, the Nazi occupation and his parents almost being killed by Allied bombing due to living beside V1 & V2 bases, he found the whole thing marvellously exciting.
I don't think so!
//Verhoeven understands this dynamic all too well; in 1943, when he was five, his family moved to the Hague, then the base for Nazi operations in The Netherlands during World War II. When the war ended, Verhoeven believed he’d never again experience life under totalitarianism. Now, he thinks it’s beginning to reappear in America. He intended Starship Troopers to be fantasy with a subversive edge. Twenty years on, it just seems like a depressing and accurate portrayal of a world where normal things have been replaced by absurd caricatures, like the one currently occupying the White House. Verhoeven’s campy vision captured the way fascism turns reality into reality TV. https://www.interviewmagazine.com/film/starship-troopers-fascist-satire-coming-true
Sounds like 20 years after making a fantasy with a subversive edge, Verhoeven has decided it was a satire.
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
It still remains the fact that the only thing that guarantee No Deal for the next 25-30 years is a DEAL!
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
At the risk of repeating myself a 2nd referendum: No Deal v Deal v Remain, decided via STV would settle the issue for a generation.
Nope.
Remain lost the referendum and in this country (unlike what they do elsewhere) we don't "revisit" demorcratic decisions until the first one has been implemented.
"We don't "revisit" democratic decisions until the first one has been implemented."
Where did that come from? It's a made up recent creation by individuals who deny people the right to change to change their mind. It is profoundly undemocratic.
We had a referendum in Wales on an assembly- the losers accepted the result.
That was different to the Scottish and EU referendums where the politicians representing the losers refused to accept the democratic vote.
That in no way answers the point. It's the essence of whataboutery.
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
It still remains the fact that the only thing that guarantee No Deal for the next 25-30 years is a DEAL!
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
At the risk of repeating myself a 2nd referendum: No Deal v Deal v Remain, decided via STV would settle the issue for a generation.
Nope.
Remain lost the referendum and in this country (unlike what they do elsewhere) we don't "revisit" demorcratic decisions until the first one has been implemented.
Nope
In this country, an advisory referendum is advisory. And the Benn Act is law
Tick tock
We had another member who used to say tick tock a lot during the Indyref campaign.
This is just fucking embarrassing. But is it not equally embarrassing that so many in this country take the other side of the argument so instinctively, are so willing to assume that the EU is right and that their own country is wrong? That there is something so immoral in wanting to have democratic control of those making our laws?
I can’t defend this embarrassing rubbish but maybe remainers should think about what they are willing to support too.
Maybe it is slightly questionable, to avoid saying immoral, to insist on keeping complete control over the small part of the laws pertaining customs and trade regulations within NI in London, if the people in NI would be quite consenting to share that part of their laws with their southern neighbours to protect their livelihoods.
You don't get a say, nor should you have a say. Butt out. You'll end up starting a war.
YET AGAIN.
I think this comment should be deleted, and the poster should be blacklisted.
What for? What really would be the point? Are they proposing an extension for extensions sake? Eight more months of paralysis and indecision?
Give us three months, and a strongly worded request to just hold a GE in November. It might not sort anything, but it just might. And its got to be better than the current storm engulfing all sides with no end in sight.
They don't want to appear to be forcing us into any particular option I suspect, even though it would be good for them as well as us. Until June gives time for theoretically any option, even a snap GE followed by swift renegotition and then a referendum if needed. As well as their budgeting decisions coming up next year, it therefore means they can step back and say it is nothing to do with them what we do. This parliament won't pass allow a no deal, so if it remains in place the assumption is at some point it will end Brexit or pass the WA (or something like it), and if there's a GE either there's no deal, which they don't care about, or it's back to the WA/remain. Either way they can play the waiting game.
If they wanted us to make a decision, and if they believe the WA is the foundation of any deal even if it can be tweaked, then they'd not extend at all, not make it contingent on passing something first, with extension for the wrap up stuff.
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
It still remains the fact that the only thing that guarantee No Deal for the next 25-30 years is a DEAL!
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
At the risk of repeating myself a 2nd referendum: No Deal v Deal v Remain, decided via STV would settle the issue for a generation.
Nope.
Remain lost the referendum and in this country (unlike what they do elsewhere) we don't "revisit" demorcratic decisions until the first one has been implemented.
"We don't "revisit" democratic decisions until the first one has been implemented."
Where did that come from? It's a made up recent creation by individuals who deny people the right to change to change their mind. It is profoundly undemocratic.
You know full well this is nonsense. If this principle is not upheld, any verdict delivered by the people but unpopular with those who hold power can simply be delayed until the political weather changes, or (worse) until the people who were against it in the first place have used every tactic available to them to prove the 'impossibility' of the task.
"Until the political weather changes" - you mean until people have changed their mind. You don't want to allow them to do that. Profoundly undemocratic.
This is just fucking embarrassing. But is it not equally embarrassing that so many in this country take the other side of the argument so instinctively, are so willing to assume that the EU is right and that their own country is wrong? That there is something so immoral in wanting to have democratic control of those making our laws?
I can’t defend this embarrassing rubbish but maybe remainers should think about what they are willing to support too.
Maybe it is slightly questionable, to avoid saying immoral, to insist on keeping complete control over the small part of the laws pertaining customs and trade regulations within NI in London, if the people in NI would be quite consenting to share that part of their laws with their southern neighbours to protect their livelihoods.
Ok. How about we put a customs border between Hamburg and Schleswig Holstein and customs are collected and regulated by London without the say of people in Schleswig Holstein? Forever. Despite what 82 million people in Germany decide by a vote. All ok?
But there is a part of Germany (the town of Büsingen) that is in the Swiss customs area, and the people of the town have no say in it whatsoever.
Simply, it was too much bother to implement customs posts around the town, and the German government thought it would be easier for Büsingen to be part of the Swiss customs area.
I think you're being a bit disiningenous here. If the British proposal was that the Northern Irish should vote in a referendum about joining the backstop, and that they could leave it via future referendum, and then the EU said "non", then that would be utterly unacceptable.
But the UK is not offering the people of Northern Ireland any choice in the matter.
Now, that's not a crazy situation (we don't offer the people of Streatham a say), but we have signed up to various accords around the Good Friday Agreement that allow the people of Northern Ireland an unprecedented level of control over their destiny.
This is just fucking embarrassing. But is it not equally embarrassing that so many in this country take the other side of the argument so instinctively, are so willing to assume that the EU is right and that their own country is wrong? That there is something so immoral in wanting to have democratic control of those making our laws?
I can’t defend this embarrassing rubbish but maybe remainers should think about what they are willing to support too.
Maybe it is slightly questionable, to avoid saying immoral, to insist on keeping complete control over the small part of the laws pertaining customs and trade regulations within NI in London, if the people in NI would be quite consenting to share that part of their laws with their southern neighbours to protect their livelihoods.
You don't get a say, nor should you have a say. Butt out. You'll end up starting a war.
YET AGAIN.
I (we) don't want to get a say.
It is being proposed to give the people of NI the final, decisive say.
But what referenda take place in Northern Ireland is a matter of British domestic politics. Other EU members are entitled to their opinion, and, if they wish, to pursue their opinion in negotiations pertaining to the future relationship between the UK and the EU. But they must understand that if no agreement is reached, the UK is perfectly entitled to leave without a withdrawal agreement in place.
What referenda take place in NI is, of course, a matter of British domestic politics.
The EU has no means to enforce such a referendum, it can only propose one.
But what has democracy ever done to you that you hate it so much? Why don't you want the people of NI to engage in an act of direct democracy? Or do you hate the people of NI so much that you don't want to grant them the opportunity to democratically shape an important part of their future?
"We don't want to fight but by jingo if we do, We've got the ships, we've got the men, and got the money too!"
Starship Troopers?
Part of the Chorus from McDermott's War Song and the only bit I can remember.
I did read Heinlein's Starship Troopers. The movie version was a travesty of the novel. The novel was bad enough in its own way, but the movie.....
Hollywood can really mess up any book.
Starship Troopers is a brilliant movie, made from a very dull book. Paul Verhoeven was right to tear up the script, which was a wordy hymn to facism beloved by the American military, and to make an over the top satire of Facism with gratuitous nudity and gore. He is a top director.
People love Starship Troopers BECAUSE it is Fascist. Its supposed allegorical status means we are free to like the Fascism, despite the movie being clearly Fascist.
For a Fascist movie, it is very clever.
That is why it is such a rich and subtley subversive satire. We cheer on the Fascists as they wage a war of extermination and conquest. As dangerous in it's own way as Triumph of the Will.
It has been very influential. Many subsequent Hollywood films have the same fascistic themography, without Verhoeven's knowing satire.
One of the best 'bad' movies of all time. I won't post the musical number from the direct to dvd third movie again, but its worth seeing it every time.
Surely we can all agree that Starship Troopers is a better movie than Die Hard?
No. Because Starship Troopers isn't a Christmas movie.
"We don't want to fight but by jingo if we do, We've got the ships, we've got the men, and got the money too!"
Starship Troopers?
Part of the Chorus from McDermott's War Song and the only bit I can remember.
I did read Heinlein's Starship Troopers. The movie version was a travesty of the novel. The novel was bad enough in its own way, but the movie.....
Hollywood can really mess up any book.
Starship Troopers is a brilliant movie, made from a very dull book. Paul Verhoeven was right to tear up the script, which was a wordy hymn to facism beloved by the American military, and to make an over the top satire of Facism with gratuitous nudity and gore. He is a top director.
People love Starship Troopers BECAUSE it is Fascist. Its supposed allegorical status means we are free to like the Fascism, despite the movie being clearly Fascist.
For a Fascist movie, it is very clever.
That is why it is such a rich and subtley subversive satire. We cheer on the Fascists as they wage a war of extermination and conquest. As dangerous in it's own way as Triumph of the Will.
It has been very influential. Many subsequent Hollywood films have the same fascistic themography, without Verhoeven's knowing satire.
One of the best 'bad' movies of all time. I won't post the musical number from the direct to dvd third movie again, but its worth seeing it every time.
Surely we can all agree that Starship Troopers is a better movie than Die Hard?
I certainly can. Die Hard is fine, it's fun even. But Starship Troopers is a hilarious romp.
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
It still remains the fact that the only thing that guarantee No Deal for the next 25-30 years is a DEAL!
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
At the risk of repeating myself a 2nd referendum: No Deal v Deal v Remain, decided via STV would settle the issue for a generation.
Nope.
Remain lost the referendum and in this country (unlike what they do elsewhere) we don't "revisit" demorcratic decisions until the first one has been implemented.
Nope
In this country, an advisory referendum is advisory. And the Benn Act is law
Tick tock
We had another member who used to say tick tock a lot during the Indyref campaign.
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
It still remains the fact that the only thing that guarantee No Deal for the next 25-30 years is a DEAL!
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
At the risk of repeating myself a 2nd referendum: No Deal v Deal v Remain, decided via STV would settle the issue for a generation.
Nope.
Remain lost the referendum and in this country (unlike what they do elsewhere) we don't "revisit" demorcratic decisions until the first one has been implemented.
"We don't "revisit" democratic decisions until the first one has been implemented."
Where did that come from? It's a made up recent creation by individuals who deny people the right to change to change their mind. It is profoundly undemocratic.
We had a referendum in Wales on an assembly- the losers accepted the result.
That was different to the Scottish and EU referendums where the politicians representing the losers refused to accept the democratic vote.
I'm sure UKIP and the Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party are losers, but I don't think acceptance is part of their make up.
And of course 'we' (ie the people who actually live in Scotland) have our own losers.
What for? What really would be the point? Are they proposing an extension for extensions sake? Eight more months of paralysis and indecision?
Give us three months, and a strongly worded request to just hold a GE in November. It might not sort anything, but it just might. And its got to be better than the current storm engulfing all sides with no end in sight.
A three month extension will be a total shit-show for time wasting.
We'll end up pushing back the election till early new year anyway (we're heading towards last kick of November election as it is already) and coming back from the GE and still having to extend anyway because whatever the new government is still needs time to decide what's next.
If you want to get it done you've got two options basically, a hugely long extension so that basically we can have 3 elections, 2 referendums, one revolution and then 6 months for the people picking up the pieces to sit down and have a new think about how next best to try this, or a rolling set of 7 day extensions that basically keep everyone in Parliament 24/7 working out how to get out of the extension loop or crash out in a few days' time.
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
It still remains the fact that the only thing that guarantee No Deal for the next 25-30 years is a DEAL!
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
At the risk of repeating myself a 2nd referendum: No Deal v Deal v Remain, decided via STV would settle the issue for a generation.
Nope.
Remain lost the referendum and in this country (unlike what they do elsewhere) we don't "revisit" demorcratic decisions until the first one has been implemented.
"We don't "revisit" democratic decisions until the first one has been implemented."
Where did that come from? It's a made up recent creation by individuals who deny people the right to change to change their mind. It is profoundly undemocratic.
We had a referendum in Wales on an assembly- the losers accepted the result.
That was different to the Scottish and EU referendums where the politicians representing the losers refused to accept the democratic vote.
I'm sure UKIP and the Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party are losers, but I don't think acceptance is part of their make up.
And of course 'we' (ie the people who actually live in Scotland) have our own losers.
"We don't want to fight but by jingo if we do, We've got the ships, we've got the men, and got the money too!"
Starship Troopers?
Part of the Chorus from McDermott's War Song and the only bit I can remember.
I did read Heinlein's Starship Troopers. The movie version was a travesty of the novel. The novel was bad enough in its own way, but the movie.....
Hollywood can really mess up any book.
Starship Troopers is a brilliant movie, made from a very dull book. Paul Verhoeven was right to tear up the script, which was a wordy hymn to facism beloved by the American military, and to make an over the top satire of Facism with gratuitous nudity and gore. He is a top director.
People love Starship Troopers BECAUSE it is Fascist. Its supposed allegorical status means we are free to like the Fascism, despite the movie being clearly Fascist.
For a Fascist movie, it is very clever.
That is why it is such a rich and subtley subversive satire. We cheer on the Fascists as they wage a war of extermination and conquest. As dangerous in it's own way as Triumph of the Will.
It has been very influential. Many subsequent Hollywood films have the same fascistic themography, without Verhoeven's knowing satire.
One of the best 'bad' movies of all time. I won't post the musical number from the direct to dvd third movie again, but its worth seeing it every time.
Surely we can all agree that Starship Troopers is a better movie than Die Hard?
I certainly can. Die Hard is fine, it's fun even. But Starship Troopers is a hilarious romp.
True but Starship Troopers isn't a Christmas movie while Die Hard is Home Alone for adults.
"We don't want to fight but by jingo if we do, We've got the ships, we've got the men, and got the money too!"
Starship Troopers?
Part of the Chorus from McDermott's War Song and the only bit I can remember.
I did read Heinlein's Starship Troopers. The movie version was a travesty of the novel. The novel was bad enough in its own way, but the movie.....
Hollywood can really mess up any book.
Starship Troopers is a brilliant movie, made from a very dull book. Paul Verhoeven was right to tear up the script, which was a wordy hymn to facism beloved by the American military, and to make an over the top satire of Facism with gratuitous nudity and gore. He is a top director.
People love Starship Troopers BECAUSE it is Fascist. Its supposed allegorical status means we are free to like the Fascism, despite the movie being clearly Fascist.
For a Fascist movie, it is very clever.
It is a SATIRE of Fascism!
I think Verhoeven's attitude is more ambiguous. He's on record as saying that despite living through WWII, the Nazi occupation and his parents almost being killed by Allied bombing due to living beside V1 & V2 bases, he found the whole thing marvellously exciting.
I don't think so!
//Verhoeven understands this dynamic all too well; in 1943, when he was five, his family moved to the Hague, then the base for Nazi operations in The Netherlands during World War II. When the war ended, Verhoeven believed he’d never again experience life under totalitarianism. Now, he thinks it’s beginning to reappear in America. He intended Starship Troopers to be fantasy with a subversive edge. Twenty years on, it just seems like a depressing and accurate portrayal of a world where normal things have been replaced by absurd caricatures, like the one currently occupying the White House. Verhoeven’s campy vision captured the way fascism turns reality into reality TV. https://www.interviewmagazine.com/film/starship-troopers-fascist-satire-coming-true
Sounds like 20 years after making a fantasy with a subversive edge, Verhoeven has decided it was a satire.
No, he made it as a satire. He lived under German occupation, remember?
What for? What really would be the point? Are they proposing an extension for extensions sake? Eight more months of paralysis and indecision?
Give us three months, and a strongly worded request to just hold a GE in November. It might not sort anything, but it just might. And its got to be better than the current storm engulfing all sides with no end in sight.
If you want to get it done you've got two options basically, a hugely long extension so that basically we can have 3 elections, 2 referendums, one revolution and then 6 months for the people picking up the pieces to sit down and have a new think about how next best to try this, or a rolling set of 7 day extensions that basically keep everyone in Parliament 24/7 working out how to get out of the extension loop or crash out in a few days' time.
Parliament knows how to get out of the extension loop, there are several very simple ways to do so. Figuring out a way is no more the problem than a lack of time being the problem.
A lack of will to take one of the options is the problem, and unless the long extension is caveated as 'the final extension' even that won't resolve that problem, for all it gives time for elections and referenda galore.
Peter Lilley looks frothing and monomaniacal. The Labour woman looks furtive, perverse, and conflicted. Boles simply looks insane: a weird tanned tortoise electrified via his anus. Hilary Benn look like yer basic traitor.
What does the average uninvolved voter make of such a shower? My lord.
Peter Lilley looks frothing and monomaniacal. The Labour woman looks furtive, perverse, and conflicted. Boles simply looks insane: a weird tanned tortoise electrified via his anus. Hilary Benn look like yer basic traitor.
What does the average uninvolved voter make of such a shower? My lord.
Can we please have an election so the people of the UK can choose a party to implement Brexit or have a referendum or whatever.
Having a government that is in office but not in power is a disaster for everyone.
Another few weeks will not matter. Once we are past 31st October...
Passing the 31st October does not stop no deal. Any extension provides both the chance to stop brexit but also leave with no deal. It depends on the result of a GE and a new HOC
It still remains the fact that the only thing that guarantee No Deal for the next 25-30 years is a DEAL!
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
At the risk of repeating myself a 2nd referendum: No Deal v Deal v Remain, decided via STV would settle the issue for a generation.
Nope.
Remain lost the referendum and in this country (unlike what they do elsewhere) we don't "revisit" demorcratic decisions until the first one has been implemented.
"We don't "revisit" democratic decisions until the first one has been implemented."
Where did that come from? It's a made up recent creation by individuals who deny people the right to change to change their mind. It is profoundly undemocratic.
We had a referendum in Wales on an assembly- the losers accepted the result.
That was different to the Scottish and EU referendums where the politicians representing the losers refused to accept the democratic vote.
I'm sure UKIP and the Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party are losers, but I don't think acceptance is part of their make up.
And of course 'we' (ie the people who actually live in Scotland) have our own losers.
"We don't want to fight but by jingo if we do, We've got the ships, we've got the men, and got the money too!"
Starship Troopers?
Part of the Chorus from McDermott's War Song and the only bit I can remember.
I did read Heinlein's Starship Troopers. The movie version was a travesty of the novel. The novel was bad enough in its own way, but the movie.....
Hollywood can really mess up any book.
Starship Troopers is a brilliant movie, made from a very dull book. Paul Verhoeven was right to tear up the script, which was a wordy hymn to facism beloved by the American military, and to make an over the top satire of Facism with gratuitous nudity and gore. He is a top director.
People love Starship Troopers BECAUSE it is Fascist. Its supposed allegorical status means we are free to like the Fascism, despite the movie being clearly Fascist.
For a Fascist movie, it is very clever.
That is why it is such a rich and subtley subversive satire. We cheer on the Fascists as they wage a war of extermination and conquest. As dangerous in it's own way as Triumph of the Will.
It has been very influential. Many subsequent Hollywood films have the same fascistic themography, without Verhoeven's knowing satire.
One of the best 'bad' movies of all time. I won't post the musical number from the direct to dvd third movie again, but its worth seeing it every time.
Surely we can all agree that Starship Troopers is a better movie than Die Hard?
No. Because Starship Troopers isn't a Christmas movie.
"They'll keep celebrating Christmas. And they'll WIN!"
"We don't want to fight but by jingo if we do, We've got the ships, we've got the men, and got the money too!"
Starship Troopers?
Part of the Chorus from McDermott's War Song and the only bit I can remember.
I did read Heinlein's Starship Troopers. The movie version was a travesty of the novel. The novel was bad enough in its own way, but the movie.....
Hollywood can really mess up any book.
Starship Troopers is a brilliant movie, made from a very dull book. Paul Verhoeven was right to tear up the script, which was a wordy hymn to facism beloved by the American military, and to make an over the top satire of Facism with gratuitous nudity and gore. He is a top director.
People love Starship Troopers BECAUSE it is Fascist. Its supposed allegorical status means we are free to like the Fascism, despite the movie being clearly Fascist.
For a Fascist movie, it is very clever.
It is a SATIRE of Fascism!
I think Verhoeven's attitude is .
I don't think so!
//Verhoeven understands this dynamic all too well; in 1943, when he was five, his family moved to the Hague, then the base for Nazi operations in The Netherlands during World War II. When the war ended, Verhoeven believed he’d never again experience life under totalitarianism. Now, he thinks it’s beginning to reappear in America. He intended Starship Troopers to be fantasy with a subversive edge. Twenty years on, it just seems like a depressing and accurate portrayal of a world where normal things have been replaced by absurd caricatures, like the one currently occupying the White House. Verhoeven’s campy vision captured the way fascism turns reality into reality TV. https://www.interviewmagazine.com/film/starship-troopers-fascist-satire-coming-true
Sounds like 20 years after making a fantasy with a subversive edge, Verhoeven has decided it was a satire.
No, he made it as a satire. He lived under German occupation, remember?
He was seven when it ended, so possibly not yet a sophisticated understanding.
His other films, particularly the American ones, do have significant satirical themes, Robo-Cop and Showgirls in particular
This is just fucking embarrassing. But is it not equally embarrassing that so many in this country take the other side of the argument so instinctively, are so willing to assume that the EU is right and that their own country is wrong? That there is something so immoral in wanting to have democratic control of those making our laws?
I can’t defend this embarrassing rubbish but maybe remainers should think about what they are willing to support too.
Maybe it is slightly questionable, to avoid saying immoral, to insist on keeping complete control over the small part of the laws pertaining customs and trade regulations within NI in London, if the people in NI would be quite consenting to share that part of their laws with their southern neighbours to protect their livelihoods.
You don't get a say, nor should you have a say. Butt out. You'll end up starting a war.
YET AGAIN.
I (we) don't want to get a say.
It is being proposed to give the people of NI the final, decisive say.
But what referenda take place in Northern Ireland is a matter of British domestic politics. Other EU members are entitled to their opinion, and, if they wish, to pursue their opinion in negotiations pertaining to the future relationship between the UK and the EU. But they must understand that if no agreement is reached, the UK is perfectly entitled to leave without a withdrawal agreement in place.
What referenda take place in NI is, of course, a matter of British domestic politics.
The EU has no means to enforce such a referendum, it can only propose one.
But what has democracy ever done to you that you hate it so much? Why don't you want the people of NI to engage in an act of direct democracy? Or do you hate the people of NI so much that you don't want to grant them the opportunity to democratically shape an important part of their future?
I haven't expressed my opinion on holding a referendum on this issue, but my question to you is, what would your plan be if the electorate of Northern Ireland rejected a customs union with the Republic? I suspect you don't have one, because you don't actually want the people to make the decision, you want the people to give democratic legitimacy to your preferred option. You regard the outcome as a foregone conclusion. That's the same deeply flawed thinking that lead Cameron to hold the EU ref in the first place (Thank the Lord).
He was seven when it ended, so possibly not yet a sophisticated understanding.
His other films, particularly the American ones, do have significant satirical themes, Robo-Cop and Showgirls in particular
"Starship Troopers was originally a hugely popular 1959 novel by Robert A Heinlein. Heinlein was well known for advocating hardline, gung-ho foreign policy, and the story, about human soldiers fighting an interstellar war with giant arachnids, was often accused of glorifying war. The liberal Verhoeven, unsurprisingly, wasn't interested in a movie adaptation that took Heinlein's politics at face value. What he and his RoboCop co-screenwriter Neumeier aimed for instead was to inflate Heinlein's overblown ideals to the max, flaunt their pomposity and then explode them like confetti.
"We don't "revisit" democratic decisions until the first one has been implemented."
Where did that come from? It's a made up recent creation by individuals who deny people the right to change to change their mind. It is profoundly undemocratic.
We have had this one before. The UK did not have a history of holding referendums until 1975, and still doesn't really do them very often. We've only had 3 UK wide ones, and a few more at the 'sub-national'(?) level (Scotland, Wales etc) and a few more at the sub-sub-national level.
In all those previous cases, the 1979 Scottish devolution referendum excepted, the winning option was implemented. The 1979 Scottish devolution set a minimum turnout, which was not met, in order for it to be implemented. This condition was known about in advance.
If the United Kingdom either does not leave the EU, or holds a second referendum to overturn the result of the 2016 one, it will be first time in its history the result of a referendum was not implemented.
Whether you agree with Brexit or not, I would like to hope you are slightly concerned about this possibility.
I posted a future hypothetical. Let's say in 2036 the UK elects a government determined to reintroduce the death penalty for certain crimes. However, it feels pressured to hold an 'advisory' referendum on this change before it does so. In 2038, the people of the UK, in their wisdom, decide that this change is too much and refuse to back it, with 52% opposing the death penalty.
In 2039, the same government decide to do it anyway, ram it through using the Parliament Act and start hanging criminals and Derek Bentley. When a lady called Mina Giller challenges them in court, they point to 2016 and say, "But that referendum was only advisory, and wasn't implemented. There is precident for our actions."
Before people come on and pick holes in my, no doubt daft hypothetical, I ask you to look at my underlying argument. Referendum results have been implemented. THEN they might ask a similar question later (1975 to 2016, Scotland 1979 to 1997) but we've always done the answer FIRST, before asking again.
EEA all the way, probably with customs union. Delivers on the question of the referendum. Solves the NI problem. If, at a later point we can also leave the CU because of technology advances, that option remains open.
But we're far to deep down the rabbit hole for any sensible options now.
Regardless of the precise legalities here, and understanding that this is about proving Boris's Brexity credentials to the Tory party faithful, does he really believe that it is a good idea to try to remain as PM despite having lost a vote of no confidence and someone else having been indicated by the Commons as having its confidence?
It sure as hell does not pass the sniff test of 'Would Party A possibly say this is ok if Party B suggested it?'
It's remarkable what hundreds of Tory MPs, who probably think of themselves as moderate people, will no doubt meekly support because Boris (or his anonymous advisers he can disavow if there is an uproar) says so.
Peter Lilley looks frothing and monomaniacal. The Labour woman looks furtive, perverse, and conflicted. Boles simply looks insane: a weird tanned tortoise electrified via his anus. Hilary Benn look like yer basic traitor.
What does the average uninvolved voter make of such a shower? My lord.
Regardless of the precise legalities here, and understanding that this is about proving Boris's Brexity credentials to the Tory party faithful, does he really believe that it is a good idea to try to remain as PM despite having lost a vote of no confidence and someone else having been indicated by the Commons as having its confidence?
It sure as hell does not pass the sniff test of 'Would Party A possibly say this is ok if Party B suggested it?'
You never know how much of this is genuine and how much is just to keep Jolyon busy preparing lawsuits
Comments
You don't think the ad is offensive?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_GJNFweBIM
Not as many toys out of the pram tonight as last time either!
After a decade causing a mess in health, education and policing, housing, they now trump Labour, in Labour heartlands, promising the same level of spending and same policies as Labour, all thanks to the genius of Cummings crouched in a broom cupboard copying the strategy out of Mein Kampf like the amateur he is.
Yeah. This will work LOL
Even REVOKE could be usurped by a Brexit Party government within a decade.
They are as directly opposite as you can get
YET AGAIN.
Does he go for No Deal to pull the rug from TBP? If so how do the moderate Tory MPs stand on that platform?
Does he go for Deal preferred with No Deal if necessary? In other words, the platform that has just become a Titanic faliure.
Neither of these are going to campaign well imo.
A deal only means a transition period, of barely more than a year; even if a deal were to pass tomorrow, we end up at this exact same cliff-edge by the end of 2020, except with even less leverage than we do now.
It has been very influential. Many subsequent Hollywood films have the same fascistic themography, without Verhoeven's knowing satire.
I then imagine the conversation will turn to other events and our new relationship will bed in.
I can't see ther being much desire to revisit things for a generation - And I guess Remainers like Blair agree which is why they are so obsessed about stopping Brexit before it happens as Remain/Leave is a very different conversation to Keep Out/Rejoin,
Good morning, good afternoon and Goodnight (one for Sunil there)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_biA_VWVjvg
He gets to ride both horses, because the people who want No Deal think it'll be necessary, while the people who want a deal will tend to think they'll work something out. He can blame the current car crash on parliament taking No Deal off the table. The voters have swallowed more obviously bogus renegotiation stories than that before.
It is being proposed to give the people of NI the final, decisive say.
My MP in North Dorset is one example - he signed Philip Hammond's 'No Deal' letter to Boris but wasn't brave enough to join the Rebel Alliance for the Benn Act vote. As far as I know he is still set against No Deal
Remain lost the referendum and in this country (unlike what they do elsewhere) we don't "revisit" demorcratic decisions until the first one has been implemented.
A lot of people saying they won't, but then it is easy to say that until a campaign starts and you stare into the possibility of a 100 seat Tory majority led by Boris 'no deal' Johnson. The LDs may be in for a rude awakening about how practical the British electorate can be in these situations.
#newsnight
They are identical on insane spending commitments of money the country won’t have.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/10/08/tories-risk-trashing-reputation-competence-corbynesque-spending/
They divulge on brexit, where the Tory Manifesto will say No Deal, Labour everyone gets a vote on a deal v remain.
//Verhoeven understands this dynamic all too well; in 1943, when he was five, his family moved to the Hague, then the base for Nazi operations in The Netherlands during World War II. When the war ended, Verhoeven believed he’d never again experience life under totalitarianism. Now, he thinks it’s beginning to reappear in America. He intended Starship Troopers to be fantasy with a subversive edge. Twenty years on, it just seems like a depressing and accurate portrayal of a world where normal things have been replaced by absurd caricatures, like the one currently occupying the White House. Verhoeven’s campy vision captured the way fascism turns reality into reality TV.
https://www.interviewmagazine.com/film/starship-troopers-fascist-satire-coming-true
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOx8q3eGq3g
My proposal was to give the people of NI, the people who are affected by the decision to be made, the say.
My proposal is to not give the people or the politicians in in the EU, and not the people or the politicians in Great Britain, the say.
I argue that the decision should be made by the people in NI, in an act of direct democracy, a plebiscite.
None of which matters, since BoJo the incredible doofus wants an election, not a deal, the Jezziah and the Libdemites don't want Boris to get a deal and won't back it if he did, and the EU doesn't want a new deal either, they want the old one or a change in government. It's just that simple - having done some admirably hard work to get an initial deal, no one cares enough to get a new one.
Where did that come from? It's a made up recent creation by individuals who deny people the right to change to change their mind. It is profoundly undemocratic.
In this country, an advisory referendum is advisory. And the Benn Act is law
Tick tock
That was different to the Scottish and EU referendums where the politicians representing the losers refused to accept the democratic vote.
Give us three months, and a strongly worded request to just hold a GE in November. It might not sort anything, but it just might. And its got to be better than the current storm engulfing all sides with no end in sight.
If they wanted us to make a decision, and if they believe the WA is the foundation of any deal even if it can be tweaked, then they'd not extend at all, not make it contingent on passing something first, with extension for the wrap up stuff.
Simply, it was too much bother to implement customs posts around the town, and the German government thought it would be easier for Büsingen to be part of the Swiss customs area.
I think you're being a bit disiningenous here. If the British proposal was that the Northern Irish should vote in a referendum about joining the backstop, and that they could leave it via future referendum, and then the EU said "non", then that would be utterly unacceptable.
But the UK is not offering the people of Northern Ireland any choice in the matter.
Now, that's not a crazy situation (we don't offer the people of Streatham a say), but we have signed up to various accords around the Good Friday Agreement that allow the people of Northern Ireland an unprecedented level of control over their destiny.
The EU has no means to enforce such a referendum, it can only propose one.
But what has democracy ever done to you that you hate it so much?
Why don't you want the people of NI to engage in an act of direct democracy?
Or do you hate the people of NI so much that you don't want to grant them the opportunity to democratically shape an important part of their future?
And of course 'we' (ie the people who actually live in Scotland) have our own losers.
https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/191114
We'll end up pushing back the election till early new year anyway (we're heading towards last kick of November election as it is already) and coming back from the GE and still having to extend anyway because whatever the new government is still needs time to decide what's next.
If you want to get it done you've got two options basically, a hugely long extension so that basically we can have 3 elections, 2 referendums, one revolution and then 6 months for the people picking up the pieces to sit down and have a new think about how next best to try this, or a rolling set of 7 day extensions that basically keep everyone in Parliament 24/7 working out how to get out of the extension loop or crash out in a few days' time.
The only way? Odd to see such an angry petition admit they will never be able to match the popularity of the SNP and end their governance!
Weekend gross:
1. Joker: $96,202,337
2. Abominable: $11,921,855
3. Downton Abbey: $7,989,920
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/weekend/chart/
A lack of will to take one of the options is the problem, and unless the long extension is caveated as 'the final extension' even that won't resolve that problem, for all it gives time for elections and referenda galore.
They all look variously eerie.
Peter Lilley looks frothing and monomaniacal. The Labour woman looks furtive, perverse, and conflicted. Boles simply looks insane: a weird tanned tortoise electrified via his anus. Hilary Benn look like yer basic traitor.
What does the average uninvolved voter make of such a shower? My lord.
"Labour rifts deepen as Jeremy Corbyn sidelines chief of staff Karie Murphy 'he had no confidence in'"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/10/08/labour-rifts-deepen-jeremy-corbyn-sidelines-chief-staff-karie/
His other films, particularly the American ones, do have significant satirical themes, Robo-Cop and Showgirls in particular
The liberal Verhoeven, unsurprisingly, wasn't interested in a movie adaptation that took Heinlein's politics at face value. What he and his RoboCop co-screenwriter Neumeier aimed for instead was to inflate Heinlein's overblown ideals to the max, flaunt their pomposity and then explode them like confetti.
https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a823951/starship-troopers-paul-verhoeven-donald-trump-20-years-anniversary/
In all those previous cases, the 1979 Scottish devolution referendum excepted, the winning option was implemented. The 1979 Scottish devolution set a minimum turnout, which was not met, in order for it to be implemented. This condition was known about in advance.
If the United Kingdom either does not leave the EU, or holds a second referendum to overturn the result of the 2016 one, it will be first time in its history the result of a referendum was not implemented.
Whether you agree with Brexit or not, I would like to hope you are slightly concerned about this possibility.
I posted a future hypothetical. Let's say in 2036 the UK elects a government determined to reintroduce the death penalty for certain crimes. However, it feels pressured to hold an 'advisory' referendum on this change before it does so. In 2038, the people of the UK, in their wisdom, decide that this change is too much and refuse to back it, with 52% opposing the death penalty.
In 2039, the same government decide to do it anyway, ram it through using the Parliament Act and start hanging criminals and Derek Bentley. When a lady called Mina Giller challenges them in court, they point to 2016 and say, "But that referendum was only advisory, and wasn't implemented. There is precident for our actions."
Before people come on and pick holes in my, no doubt daft hypothetical, I ask you to look at my underlying argument. Referendum results have been implemented. THEN they might ask a similar question later (1975 to 2016, Scotland 1979 to 1997) but we've always done the answer FIRST, before asking again.
EEA all the way, probably with customs union. Delivers on the question of the referendum. Solves the NI problem. If, at a later point we can also leave the CU because of technology advances, that option remains open.
But we're far to deep down the rabbit hole for any sensible options now.
Classic Dom.
It sure as hell does not pass the sniff test of 'Would Party A possibly say this is ok if Party B suggested it?'
It's remarkable what hundreds of Tory MPs, who probably think of themselves as moderate people, will no doubt meekly support because Boris (or his anonymous advisers he can disavow if there is an uproar) says so.