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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » News Scotland only poll has the Tories losing most of the gain

SystemSystem Posts: 11,682
edited October 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » News Scotland only poll has the Tories losing most of the gains made at GE2017

New Scotland only poll by Panelbase for the Sunday Times find support for independence at 50% and the Tories losing the majority of Scottish Westminster seats won at GE17 https://t.co/syj1N2Kmdr pic.twitter.com/ASOz17y6qr

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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,860
    edited October 2019
    Ist like LEXIT next Saturdaý
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,860
    So 19 LEXITEERS putting Deal before whip.

    Good on them.

    A lot of water to go under bridge before Super Ssturday mind.
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    vrrooom. wonder how ferrari can screw this up.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Interesting poll - with regards to Con/Lab close to being a wash. Incumbency factor may have an effect too.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,988
    So, the libdems get a third fewer votes than labour, but 5x the seats.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    rcs1000 said:

    So, the libdems get a third fewer votes than labour, but 5x the seats.

    FPTP, innit, eh?
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
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    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,897
    rcs1000 said:

    So, the libdems get a third fewer votes than labour, but 5x the seats.

    So the SNP get 81% of the seats with 39% of the votes.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,232
    rcs1000 said:

    So, the libdems get a third fewer votes than labour, but 5x the seats.

    Given their performance right now neither the Tories nor Labour deserve any seats whatsoever, so my sympathy is limited.

    Would be quite funny though to see the two parties that have always held out for FPTP shafted due to a freak by a party that has always opposed it.
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    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,897
    FPT
    HYUFD said:

    egg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:



    I think you're arguing for what you (and I) would like. We'd both like a free trade, centrist Democrat, who believed in NATO and the Western Alliance.

    We'd like someone like Klobachar or Buttigieg.

    But the issue with the US last time around was not really that Trump won over Democrats in the Mid-West. The issue was that Democrats didn't come out to vote.

    Take Wisconsin. President Trump unexpected won it.

    But he got fewer votes than Romney! Think about that for a second. Romney is derided by many on here as a terrible candidate. But he got more votes than Trump in Wisconsin, despite the US having actually grown its voting age population meaningfully between 2012 and 2016.

    Hillary Clinton was a truly appalling candidate. And what the Democratic candidate needs to do is to persuade their supporters to come out and vote. So maybe a bit of appeal to the base matters.

    Abso-friggin-lutely.

    People on here actually need to understand what happened in 2016 before they start making pronouncements about 2020.

    Dem voters stayed home.
    Especially Black Dem voters.
    A decent chunk of potential Republican voters voted 3rd party.

    Impeaching Trump is a popular idea.

    Trump won the rust belt on tiny increases in the Republican vote and giant decreases in the Dem vote.

    A non Trump candidate would have annihilated Clinton in the rust belt as the same Dem voters staying home effect would have happened but 3rd party voters would have voted for the generic Republican.
    Trump got more votes than Romney in Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida
    How is latest polling in key state of Florida?
    Trump leads Warren 50.1% to 49.9% in the latest Florida poll

    https://business.fau.edu/departments/economics/business-economics-polling/bepi-polls/
    A difference of 0.2 percentage points is well within the margin of error, *if the vote were held on Tuesday*, and there are still 13 months to go.

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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150

    So 19 LEXITEERS putting Deal before whip.

    Good on them.

    A lot of water to go under bridge before Super Ssturday mind.

    That's what I'd say if I was intending to wait until the details were announced before denouncing it as a betrayal / job-destroyer / job-destroying betrayal.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    When is the vote on the Queens Speech? Is it Thursday?
    Wonder if it'll be carried, despite having, as it probably will, free unicorns all round, and a clear path to the end of the rainbow.
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    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,897
    FTP
    kle4 said:

    moonshine said:

    Hard to know right now what the true game is.

    Is Bojo pursuing the finalisation of a deal he knows the DUP will reject (and therefore will fail on Super Saturday) but would give him a very clear campaigning message? (Vote for me and this deal will get approved by Parliament the following week).

    Or is Dodds just briefing objections to an italian journo to keep negotiators on their toes until the final whistle?

    I know the DUP are not averse to playing games, but given their actions at present seem the same as they have been all along, I'd think it a reasonably safe assumption he means it.
    I think the DUP have played very few games in recent months. They have voted with the government on the Benn Bill and have not been giving Johnson any grief. They could have removed the C&S agreement, on the basis that the Government under Johnson is a completely different one to the government under May.

    If anything they have been, up until now, conspicuously quiet on the No-Deal/Boris-Deal/Benn/Prorouguing debates, and only now, when the plan seems to be 'treat NI differently from GB' are they starting to comment. Comments which are completely in-line with DUP policy.
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    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,897
    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So, the libdems get a third fewer votes than labour, but 5x the seats.

    Given their performance right now neither the Tories nor Labour deserve any seats whatsoever, so my sympathy is limited.

    Would be quite funny though to see the two parties that have always held out for FPTP shafted due to a freak by a party that has always opposed it.
    That already happened in 2015, and in 2017.
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    nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    So now MPs are going to be pressured by the right wing media to vote for a deal before scrutinizing it just so Bozo can deliver his stupid pledge .

    If a technical extension is needed so be it . Instead we get more divisive nonsense peddled by the MOS.

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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Yet another good race, worth watching even with no bets on it.

    No spoilers, as I guess most haven’t watched live.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    When is the vote on the Queens Speech? Is it Thursday?
    Wonder if it'll be carried, despite having, as it probably will, free unicorns all round, and a clear path to the end of the rainbow.

    Tomorrow I think.
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    Good to see Scotland V Japan going ahead but very bad form from Scotlland threatening legal action before the typhoon hit.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Away, I have mixed feelings. Legal action in sport is generally dickish, but the cancellation would've materially affected Scotland's chances. Apparently Italy might take legal action as their match *was* cancelled.

    Mr. Sandpit, aye, quite entertaining.
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    nico67 said:

    So now MPs are going to be pressured by the right wing media to vote for a deal before scrutinizing it just so Bozo can deliver his stupid pledge .

    If a technical extension is needed so be it . Instead we get more divisive nonsense peddled by the MOS.

    Well quite.
    We're talking of a generation-defining plan, which only a handful know in outline, hasn't been written yet, and may not fully work. Yet the intention seems to be to vote on it in less than a week, with it coming into force in less than three weeks.
    Why is that not insane?
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    DruttDrutt Posts: 1,093

    nico67 said:

    So now MPs are going to be pressured by the right wing media to vote for a deal before scrutinizing it just so Bozo can deliver his stupid pledge .

    If a technical extension is needed so be it . Instead we get more divisive nonsense peddled by the MOS.

    Well quite.
    We're talking of a generation-defining plan, which only a handful know in outline, hasn't been written yet, and may not fully work. Yet the intention seems to be to vote on it in less than a week, with it coming into force in less than three weeks.
    Why is that not insane?
    Didn't the net zero by 2050 plan go through on the nod?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Good to see Scotland V Japan going ahead but very bad form from Scotlland threatening legal action before the typhoon hit.

    I’m amazed there wasn’t a contingency plan for adverse weather, even if it involved the matches being played behind closed doors or in a different city.

    Cricket World Cup was the same, there was plenty of spare time in the schedule to deal with a few days of disruption, although luckily for that tournament the problems were earlier in the group stages and didn’t give the impression of affecting the tournament.

    Well done to F1 and the Suzuka promotors for managing to reschedule their weekend around the weather, even if everyone is now very tired after a long day.

    Obviously Mercedes won’t care, they are rightly over the moon after six consecutive Constructors’ championships, an astonishing achievement
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    Anyone know what the actual number were on the Independence poll? Throwing the don't knows and scaling up the answers is not OK, not sure whether this is the fault of Panelbase or The Times.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,232
    eristdoof said:

    ydoethur said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So, the libdems get a third fewer votes than labour, but 5x the seats.

    Given their performance right now neither the Tories nor Labour deserve any seats whatsoever, so my sympathy is limited.

    Would be quite funny though to see the two parties that have always held out for FPTP shafted due to a freak by a party that has always opposed it.
    That already happened in 2015, and in 2017.
    Only in Scotland. I was thinking of countrywide.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,973
    Only a matter of time now and it will be a landslide when it comes.
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    Drutt said:

    nico67 said:

    So now MPs are going to be pressured by the right wing media to vote for a deal before scrutinizing it just so Bozo can deliver his stupid pledge .

    If a technical extension is needed so be it . Instead we get more divisive nonsense peddled by the MOS.

    Well quite.
    We're talking of a generation-defining plan, which only a handful know in outline, hasn't been written yet, and may not fully work. Yet the intention seems to be to vote on it in less than a week, with it coming into force in less than three weeks.
    Why is that not insane?
    Didn't the net zero by 2050 plan go through on the nod?
    I don't think that's analogous. The zero carbon plan is a long-term direction, which says little about how, and nothing about things that have to happen over the next few years.
    The Withdrawal Agreement is going to be a long legal document full of very specific requirements. The talk seems to be of going from friendly talk to the WA coming into force in three weeks. It takes longer than that to buy a house.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    All ammunition to my theory that Corbyn is going to resign as leader before calling a VONC. There is no way he is going to go down to such an ignominious defeat when his party has all the cards at the moment.

    Even if he were such a megalowmaniac not to see it -which I don't think he is-his backers wouldn't put up with it. A two month Labour leadership contest followed by a VONC and an election early next year and Labour would be in with a chance.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,629
    malcolmg said:

    Only a matter of time now and it will be a landslide when it comes.

    Looks a cert now. If I were I Scot, I would be a switcher.

    Brexit is very symbolic of how the Union is broken, it has no future.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Ist like LEXIT next Saturdaý

    What happens next Saturday?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    edited October 2019
    Roger said:

    Ist like LEXIT next Saturdaý

    What happens next Saturday?
    Parliament is sitting to debate Brexit, in the aftermath of the EU conference.

    We could see anything from a deal agreed and passed, to the PM resigning to avoid signing the extension letter.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,629
    Roger said:

    Ist like LEXIT next Saturdaý

    What happens next Saturday?
    Lexiteers vote to support the destruction of workers rights and environmental protections.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,232
    Roger said:

    Ist like LEXIT next Saturdaý

    What happens next Saturday?
    Votes in Parliament while Corbyn buggers off to Liverpool to tell everyone that Labour will make them all filthy rich.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    rcs1000 said:

    So, the libdems get a third fewer votes than labour, but 5x the seats.

    Scant reward for the many elections where a quarter of the votes got them barely out of single fiures
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    Roger said:

    All ammunition to my theory that Corbyn is going to resign as leader before calling a VONC. There is no way he is going to go down to such an ignominious defeat when his party has all the cards at the moment.

    Even if he were such a megalowmaniac not to see it -which I don't think he is-his backers wouldn't put up with it. A two month Labour leadership contest followed by a VONC and an election early next year and Labour would be in with a chance.

    Corbyn’s victory is control of the Labour Party, not defeating the Tories. He is going nowhere until there is a successor from the far-left lined up who can win a leadership election. As the far left fragments, that day is a very long way off. So unless Corbyn is challenged, he will be in charge for many years yet.

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    StreeterStreeter Posts: 684
    Roger said:

    All ammunition to my theory that Corbyn is going to resign as leader before calling a VONC. There is no way he is going to go down to such an ignominious defeat when his party has all the cards at the moment.

    Even if he were such a megalowmaniac not to see it -which I don't think he is-his backers wouldn't put up with it. A two month Labour leadership contest followed by a VONC and an election early next year and Labour would be in with a chance.

    He’s not a megalowmaniac he’s a megahighmaniac.

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    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited October 2019

    So 19 LEXITEERS putting Deal before whip.

    Good on them.

    I've just taken up the Ladbrokes 4/1 that we will Brexit with a deal by 31/10. This is a good example of a head-over-heart bet as I'm a passionate Remainer.

    However, I do think that's the last I'll see of my money. Even with Labour rebels I can't really see how this deal would pass. There are supposedly 25 Tory rebels. Even if some of them are swung round, noises from the hard right DUP and ERG are not at all promising.

    Do we really think an unholy alliance will see this through? I don't. Still, 4/1 is possibly worth the shot so I've taken it.
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    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Only a matter of time now and it will be a landslide when it comes.

    Looks a cert now. If I were I Scot, I would be a switcher.

    Brexit is very symbolic of how the Union is broken, it has no future.

    The resilience of the pro-Union vote is remarkable. But the flow is all one way. I see that Billy Connolly - who used to be utterly scathing about the nationalists - has backed independence now.

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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Corbyn needs to be assured of his successor before he goes,
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,629

    Roger said:

    All ammunition to my theory that Corbyn is going to resign as leader before calling a VONC. There is no way he is going to go down to such an ignominious defeat when his party has all the cards at the moment.

    Even if he were such a megalowmaniac not to see it -which I don't think he is-his backers wouldn't put up with it. A two month Labour leadership contest followed by a VONC and an election early next year and Labour would be in with a chance.

    Corbyn’s victory is control of the Labour Party, not defeating the Tories. He is going nowhere until there is a successor from the far-left lined up who can win a leadership election. As the far left fragments, that day is a very long way off. So unless Corbyn is challenged, he will be in charge for many years yet.

    He knows that no far left candidate can win such a leadership contest.

    There is no candidate with the ability and charisma to be a British @AOC.

    The other reason is that parties change leaders when they want a change in direction. That change is not going to be to the left.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    eristdoof said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So, the libdems get a third fewer votes than labour, but 5x the seats.

    So the SNP get 81% of the seats with 39% of the votes.
    Or the DUP gets 100% of all the Northern Ireland MPs who actually sit at Westminster on 36% of the vote
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Roger said:

    All ammunition to my theory that Corbyn is going to resign as leader before calling a VONC. There is no way he is going to go down to such an ignominious defeat when his party has all the cards at the moment.

    Even if he were such a megalowmaniac not to see it -which I don't think he is-his backers wouldn't put up with it. A two month Labour leadership contest followed by a VONC and an election early next year and Labour would be in with a chance.

    I thought a challenge to the leadership had to be done at conference, so it would have to be a resignation. That in my view is less likely than in your view. If Corbyn resigns isn't it the case that the deputy takes over? He wouldn't let Tom Watson in. Or can a leader set up a contest to replace themselves with the new leader taking post and the old leader leaving on the same day after the contest?

    I'm not familiar with the labour rule book , but I doubt a 2 month selection process and election is feasible.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Only a matter of time now and it will be a landslide when it comes.

    Looks a cert now. If I were I Scot, I would be a switcher.

    Brexit is very symbolic of how the Union is broken, it has no future.

    The resilience of the pro-Union vote is remarkable. But the flow is all one way. I see that Billy Connolly - who used to be utterly scathing about the nationalists - has backed independence now.

    The UK is far less attractive than it was 5 years ago. Brexit has seriously undermined our USPs like stability, pragmatism and tolerance. Why be a a member of Boris’ Brexit Bedlam Britain?
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,715
    Independent Scotland in the EU is attractive right now. Brexit is poison.

    Johnson's plan, such as it it is, is unworkable. While NI gets its FTZ, which might boost the economy, it's a constitutional mess and the absence of any agreed arrangements for the rUK make it close to No Deal there.

    A deal may be signed because both sides want it, and something better may come along later, I suppose.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    eristdoof said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So, the libdems get a third fewer votes than labour, but 5x the seats.

    So the SNP get 81% of the seats with 39% of the votes.
    Or the DUP gets 100% of all the Northern Ireland MPs who actually sit at Westminster on 36% of the vote
    Should have changed FPTP has the price of coalition. No half baked AV referendum.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990

    eristdoof said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So, the libdems get a third fewer votes than labour, but 5x the seats.

    So the SNP get 81% of the seats with 39% of the votes.
    Or the DUP gets 100% of all the Northern Ireland MPs who actually sit at Westminster on 36% of the vote
    What about Lady Hermon?

    And is the Queens Speech vote immediately after it? Thought there were a few days debate.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    edited October 2019
    So say Boris comes back with a deal and tells everybody how great it is. Corbyn responds with VONC, which he wins, and supports a new election with no intervening GNU or GoNAfaE.

    Does Boris run for election on "leave with my deal" against BXP who are denouncing it as a sell-out?

    Or does he try to return to his previous position so he can ride both horses, tell everyone to disregard what he just said and announce that his new deal was actually kind of shitty after all, and promise to renegotiate a third deal, which will be better than the first two because he's taken those off the table again and put No Deal back on it???
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    Jonathan said:

    eristdoof said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So, the libdems get a third fewer votes than labour, but 5x the seats.

    So the SNP get 81% of the seats with 39% of the votes.
    Or the DUP gets 100% of all the Northern Ireland MPs who actually sit at Westminster on 36% of the vote
    Should have changed FPTP has the price of coalition. No half baked AV referendum.
    Indeed. However, IIRC, AV was all Cameron and the Tories would agree to.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,715

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Only a matter of time now and it will be a landslide when it comes.

    Looks a cert now. If I were I Scot, I would be a switcher.

    Brexit is very symbolic of how the Union is broken, it has no future.

    The resilience of the pro-Union vote is remarkable. But the flow is all one way. I see that Billy Connolly - who used to be utterly scathing about the nationalists - has backed independence now.

    There's a hard core of about 25% that are British first and foremost. They won't win the next referendum.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited October 2019
    SNP only projected to get 48 seats then ie still well down on the 56 seats they got at their peak in 2015 while the Scottish Tories on 5 seats projected still well up on the number they got at every general election from 1997 to 2017, so that is encouraging for Boris and his chances of an overall Tory majority. The LDs will also be pleased they are forecast to gain a seat in Scotland.

    Disaster for Scottish Labour though as they slump back to just the 1 seat they got in 2015, losing 6 current Labour seats
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    Ist like LEXIT next Saturdaý

    What happens next Saturday?
    Lexiteers vote to support the destruction of workers rights and environmental protections.
    Of course! Bringing ignominy to the once great name of Kinnock. I suppose the good news is there will be another 19 partyless MP's looking for a home.
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    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,601
    edited October 2019

    Anyone know what the actual number were on the Independence poll? Throwing the don't knows and scaling up the answers is not OK, not sure whether this is the fault of Panelbase or The Times.

    I would also like to know the question. An assumption that a referendum question would refer to the vaguely aspirational goal of "independence" rather than the precise constitutional issue is questionable, given that a future UK Government might not be prepared to roll over on the wording in the same way as Cameron did. If YES/NO options are still deemed permissible then:

    "Should Scotland continue to be part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?"
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    eristdoof said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So, the libdems get a third fewer votes than labour, but 5x the seats.

    So the SNP get 81% of the seats with 39% of the votes.
    Or the DUP gets 100% of all the Northern Ireland MPs who actually sit at Westminster on 36% of the vote
    Should have changed FPTP has the price of coalition. No half baked AV referendum.
    Indeed. However, IIRC, AV was all Cameron and the Tories would agree to.
    Bless. We have subsequently learned that Dave is a push over. The LDs could have held out for a lot more.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited October 2019
    50% still oppose independence too despite Brexit and including Don't Knows only 45% think it would be best for Scotland to stay in the EU as an Independent nation ie no higher than the 45% Yes got in 2014.

    Though with No Deal though support for independence rises to 54%, albeit excluding Don't Knows

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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    eristdoof said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So, the libdems get a third fewer votes than labour, but 5x the seats.

    So the SNP get 81% of the seats with 39% of the votes.
    Or the DUP gets 100% of all the Northern Ireland MPs who actually sit at Westminster on 36% of the vote
    Sinn Fein is perfectly entitled to take its seats whenever it complies with Commons practice
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Only a matter of time now and it will be a landslide when it comes.

    Looks a cert now. If I were I Scot, I would be a switcher.

    Brexit is very symbolic of how the Union is broken, it has no future.

    The resilience of the pro-Union vote is remarkable. But the flow is all one way. I see that Billy Connolly - who used to be utterly scathing about the nationalists - has backed independence now.

    The UK is far less attractive than it was 5 years ago. Brexit has seriously undermined our USPs like stability, pragmatism and tolerance. Why be a a member of Boris’ Brexit Bedlam Britain?
    'B's a great letter
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    So say Boris comes back with a deal and tells everybody how great it is. Corbyn responds with VONC, which he wins, and supports a new election with no intervening GNU or GoNAfaE.

    Does Boris run for election on "leave with my deal" against BXP who are denouncing it as a sell-out?

    Or does he try to return to his previous position so he can ride both horses, tell everyone to disregard what he just said and announce that his new deal was actually kind of shitty after all, and promise to renegotiate a third deal, which will be better than the first two because he's taken those off the table again and put No Deal back on it???

    If there is a deal the EU would be wise to say no more extensions
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    So support for independence isn't 50% when you remove all the caveats....
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    philiph said:

    Roger said:

    All ammunition to my theory that Corbyn is going to resign as leader before calling a VONC. There is no way he is going to go down to such an ignominious defeat when his party has all the cards at the moment.

    Even if he were such a megalowmaniac not to see it -which I don't think he is-his backers wouldn't put up with it. A two month Labour leadership contest followed by a VONC and an election early next year and Labour would be in with a chance.

    I thought a challenge to the leadership had to be done at conference, so it would have to be a resignation. That in my view is less likely than in your view. If Corbyn resigns isn't it the case that the deputy takes over? He wouldn't let Tom Watson in. Or can a leader set up a contest to replace themselves with the new leader taking post and the old leader leaving on the same day after the contest?

    I'm not familiar with the labour rule book , but I doubt a 2 month selection process and election is feasible.
    Corbyn’s going nowhere until there’s a successor lined up. The problem he has is that the far left MPs are all either in their seventies or their thirties - neither of which are attractive as the next leader, let alone as a credible candidate to immediately stand in an election to be Prime Minister.

    I think he’ll probably resign after the election (assuming he doesn’t end up as PM of course), and give one of the younger MPs four or five years as LotO to develop.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Jonathan said:

    Corbyn needs to be assured of his successor before he goes,

    Corbyn will say..... Et tu Brute...
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,973

    Anyone know what the actual number were on the Independence poll? Throwing the don't knows and scaling up the answers is not OK, not sure whether this is the fault of Panelbase or The Times.

    I would also like to know the question. An assumption that a referendum question would refer to the vaguely aspirational goal of "independence" rather than the precise constitutional issue is questionable, given that a future UK Government might not be prepared to roll over on the wording in the same way as Cameron did. If YES/NO options are still deemed permissible then:

    "Should Scotland continue to be part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?"
    Question will be the same one that was asked last time.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    eristdoof said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So, the libdems get a third fewer votes than labour, but 5x the seats.

    So the SNP get 81% of the seats with 39% of the votes.
    Or the DUP gets 100% of all the Northern Ireland MPs who actually sit at Westminster on 36% of the vote
    Should have changed FPTP has the price of coalition. No half baked AV referendum.
    Indeed. However, IIRC, AV was all Cameron and the Tories would agree to.
    Bless. We have subsequently learned that Dave is a push over. The LDs could have held out for a lot more.
    Being wise after the event is not helpful!
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,629
    Sandpit said:

    philiph said:

    Roger said:

    All ammunition to my theory that Corbyn is going to resign as leader before calling a VONC. There is no way he is going to go down to such an ignominious defeat when his party has all the cards at the moment.

    Even if he were such a megalowmaniac not to see it -which I don't think he is-his backers wouldn't put up with it. A two month Labour leadership contest followed by a VONC and an election early next year and Labour would be in with a chance.

    I thought a challenge to the leadership had to be done at conference, so it would have to be a resignation. That in my view is less likely than in your view. If Corbyn resigns isn't it the case that the deputy takes over? He wouldn't let Tom Watson in. Or can a leader set up a contest to replace themselves with the new leader taking post and the old leader leaving on the same day after the contest?

    I'm not familiar with the labour rule book , but I doubt a 2 month selection process and election is feasible.
    Corbyn’s going nowhere until there’s a successor lined up. The problem he has is that the far left MPs are all either in their seventies or their thirties - neither of which are attractive as the next leader, let alone as a credible candidate to immediately stand in an election to be Prime Minister.

    I think he’ll probably resign after the election (assuming he doesn’t end up as PM of course), and give one of the younger MPs four or five years as LotO to develop.
    The leadership is not in his gift.

    Outgoing leaders rarely have the ability or influence to appoint their successors. They are outgoing because they have failed, and what influence they had is diminished.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    Charles said:

    eristdoof said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So, the libdems get a third fewer votes than labour, but 5x the seats.

    So the SNP get 81% of the seats with 39% of the votes.
    Or the DUP gets 100% of all the Northern Ireland MPs who actually sit at Westminster on 36% of the vote
    Sinn Fein is perfectly entitled to take its seats whenever it complies with Commons practice

    I'm sure you, or one of your relatives has read the oath they have to swear.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Only a matter of time now and it will be a landslide when it comes.

    Looks a cert now. If I were I Scot, I would be a switcher.

    Brexit is very symbolic of how the Union is broken, it has no future.
    Says a diehard Remainer for whom EU membership is more important than keeping the UK together!
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,122

    So say Boris comes back with a deal and tells everybody how great it is. Corbyn responds with VONC, which he wins, and supports a new election with no intervening GNU or GoNAfaE.

    Does Boris run for election on "leave with my deal" against BXP who are denouncing it as a sell-out?

    Or does he try to return to his previous position so he can ride both horses, tell everyone to disregard what he just said and announce that his new deal was actually kind of shitty after all, and promise to renegotiate a third deal, which will be better than the first two because he's taken those off the table again and put No Deal back on it???

    Surely not even he would have the brass neck to pretend he's going to negotiate a different deal if elected?

    But I'm interested in whether he is really going to expel Tory Brexiteers who vote against the deal, and what happens then. Farage's parties haven't shown much success in winning new seats, but they have been better at holding the seats of defectors.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Charles said:

    eristdoof said:

    rcs1000 said:

    So, the libdems get a third fewer votes than labour, but 5x the seats.

    So the SNP get 81% of the seats with 39% of the votes.
    Or the DUP gets 100% of all the Northern Ireland MPs who actually sit at Westminster on 36% of the vote
    Sinn Fein is perfectly entitled to take its seats whenever it complies with Commons practice
    Or Leave's expectation to take 100% of the Brexit spoils on 51.9% of the vote
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    philiph said:

    Roger said:

    All ammunition to my theory that Corbyn is going to resign as leader before calling a VONC. There is no way he is going to go down to such an ignominious defeat when his party has all the cards at the moment.

    Even if he were such a megalowmaniac not to see it -which I don't think he is-his backers wouldn't put up with it. A two month Labour leadership contest followed by a VONC and an election early next year and Labour would be in with a chance.

    I thought a challenge to the leadership had to be done at conference, so it would have to be a resignation. That in my view is less likely than in your view. If Corbyn resigns isn't it the case that the deputy takes over? He wouldn't let Tom Watson in. Or can a leader set up a contest to replace themselves with the new leader taking post and the old leader leaving on the same day after the contest?

    I'm not familiar with the labour rule book , but I doubt a 2 month selection process and election is feasible.
    Corbyn’s going nowhere until there’s a successor lined up. The problem he has is that the far left MPs are all either in their seventies or their thirties - neither of which are attractive as the next leader, let alone as a credible candidate to immediately stand in an election to be Prime Minister.

    I think he’ll probably resign after the election (assuming he doesn’t end up as PM of course), and give one of the younger MPs four or five years as LotO to develop.
    The leadership is not in his gift.

    Outgoing leaders rarely have the ability or influence to appoint their successors. They are outgoing because they have failed, and what influence they had is diminished.
    Indeed, but he won’t want a situation where the party gets handed back to an evil Blairite, so he’ll want to endorse someone specific, playing the mad party games that seem to be constantly engaged in by the far left.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Only a matter of time now and it will be a landslide when it comes.

    Looks a cert now. If I were I Scot, I would be a switcher.

    Brexit is very symbolic of how the Union is broken, it has no future.

    The resilience of the pro-Union vote is remarkable. But the flow is all one way. I see that Billy Connolly - who used to be utterly scathing about the nationalists - has backed independence now.

    Billy Connolly has always been left of centre and he was a Remainer so not that surprising, he is very much SNP demographic, great comedian though he is.



  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited October 2019
    The 5 seats the Tories are projected to win in Scotland would be 5 times the number of Tory MPs from Scotland in 2015 when the Tories still won a majority across the UK so still some encouragement for Boris there, he is clearly more popular in Scotland than Cameron was even if he is not as popular in Scotland as May was
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    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Only a matter of time now and it will be a landslide when it comes.

    Looks a cert now. If I were I Scot, I would be a switcher.

    Brexit is very symbolic of how the Union is broken, it has no future.

    The resilience of the pro-Union vote is remarkable. But the flow is all one way. I see that Billy Connolly - who used to be utterly scathing about the nationalists - has backed independence now.

    Billy Connolly has always been left of centre and he was a Remainer so not that surprising, he is very much SNP demographic, great comedian though he is.

    But he was vocally opposed you independence. Now he supports it. That’s rather the point.

  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,973
    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Only a matter of time now and it will be a landslide when it comes.

    Looks a cert now. If I were I Scot, I would be a switcher.

    Brexit is very symbolic of how the Union is broken, it has no future.

    The resilience of the pro-Union vote is remarkable. But the flow is all one way. I see that Billy Connolly - who used to be utterly scathing about the nationalists - has backed independence now.

    Billy Connolly has always been left of centre and he was a Remainer so not that surprising, he is very much SNP demographic, great comedian though he is.



    Garbage , he was dead against independence in 2014 but has come to his senses and realised that democracy should prevail against colonialism.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Only a matter of time now and it will be a landslide when it comes.

    Looks a cert now. If I were I Scot, I would be a switcher.

    Brexit is very symbolic of how the Union is broken, it has no future.

    The resilience of the pro-Union vote is remarkable. But the flow is all one way. I see that Billy Connolly - who used to be utterly scathing about the nationalists - has backed independence now.

    So in one fit of ambition Johnson could end up losing Scotland Northern Ireland Gibraltar and our permanent seat on the security council....

    As Bruce Forsyth might have said 'Didn't he do well!'
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    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    All ammunition to my theory that Corbyn is going to resign as leader before calling a VONC. There is no way he is going to go down to such an ignominious defeat when his party has all the cards at the moment.

    Even if he were such a megalowmaniac not to see it -which I don't think he is-his backers wouldn't put up with it. A two month Labour leadership contest followed by a VONC and an election early next year and Labour would be in with a chance.

    Corbyn’s victory is control of the Labour Party, not defeating the Tories. He is going nowhere until there is a successor from the far-left lined up who can win a leadership election. As the far left fragments, that day is a very long way off. So unless Corbyn is challenged, he will be in charge for many years yet.

    He knows that no far left candidate can win such a leadership contest.

    There is no candidate with the ability and charisma to be a British @AOC.
    Diane Abbott!

    As to a leadership contest and how they would rig it I find the Tees Valley mayoral candidate selection to be instructive. The anointed candidate is backed by Momentum and Unite. Her supporters advised CLPs to only nominate her in contravention of the rules. Sadly some CLPs clarified the rules with the party who confirmed they could nominate more than 1 candidate. So at the last minute her challenger was disqualified because before he joined the Labour Party he tweeted nice things about (then independent Tees Mayoral candidate) Andy Preston.

    To celebrate her appointment how does Jessie Joe Jacobs act? That's right, she tweets her support for the independent mayor of Middlesbrough Andy Preston.

    Activists have been told they will now back the candidate. In Stockton where activists were already few on the ground a mass washing of hair is now planned. For the national leadership surely the Corbynite NEC would do the same, simply disqualifying other candidates on the grounds that they are not Laura Pidcock
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    Charles said:

    So say Boris comes back with a deal and tells everybody how great it is. Corbyn responds with VONC, which he wins, and supports a new election with no intervening GNU or GoNAfaE.

    Does Boris run for election on "leave with my deal" against BXP who are denouncing it as a sell-out?

    Or does he try to return to his previous position so he can ride both horses, tell everyone to disregard what he just said and announce that his new deal was actually kind of shitty after all, and promise to renegotiate a third deal, which will be better than the first two because he's taken those off the table again and put No Deal back on it???

    If there is a deal the EU would be wise to say no more extensions
    If their only goal is to be helpful to Boris Johnson then they would, but I don't think it is.
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    It seems as if MPs will be asked to vote on a Johnson Deal without actually being able to scrutinise it. If they approve it, the Benn Act becomes redundant. At which point Johnson can repudiate the Deal and take the UK out with no deal on 31st October.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    The last five years have not been a good advert for the UK. Not surprised many Scots seek stability, decency and prosperity elsewhere.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,302
    edited October 2019
    I keep coming back to that bloke on Week in Westminster. He put it thus: there are 26 so called Northern Labour leave seats of which 13 have no chance of turning blue. Which leaves 13 possible Cons gains on the whole brexit more important than party loyalty thing. This is balanced by the 13 possible Cons losses in Scotland.

    So net net a wash and Cons need to look elsewhere for their OM.
  • Options


    As to a leadership contest and how they would rig it I find the Tees Valley mayoral candidate selection to be instructive. The anointed candidate is backed by Momentum and Unite. Her supporters advised CLPs to only nominate her in contravention of the rules. Sadly some CLPs clarified the rules with the party who confirmed they could nominate more than 1 candidate. So at the last minute her challenger was disqualified because before he joined the Labour Party he tweeted nice things about (then independent Tees Mayoral candidate) Andy Preston.

    To celebrate her appointment how does Jessie Joe Jacobs act? That's right, she tweets her support for the independent mayor of Middlesbrough Andy Preston.

    Activists have been told they will now back the candidate. In Stockton where activists were already few on the ground a mass washing of hair is now planned. For the national leadership surely the Corbynite NEC would do the same, simply disqualifying other candidates on the grounds that they are not Laura Pidcock

    Just to reassure mods that I am not making this up

    More information has come my way on Tees Valley Mayor Labour selection. I understand tweets in the past like these by Dan Smith championing someone standing against Labour were not helpful when it came to deciding whether he should be shortlisted. pic.twitter.com/lYouZTnt4h

    — Richard Moss (@BBCRichardMoss) October 9, 2019

    This is fantastic and exactly the type of scheme we need for Middlesbrough and for Tees Valley. I know the plans have been in development for some time but congratulations to @Tees_Issues on taking to the next level. Really hope we see this one fly. https://t.co/iBTzhf5ZEV

    — Jessie Joe Jacobs (@JesJoeJac) October 10, 2019
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    Corbyn just now on Sky

    'I will not countenance a Scots Independence referendum in the early years of a labour government'

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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    TOPPING said:

    I keep coming back to that bloke on Week in Westminster. He put it thus: there are 26 so called Northern Labour leave seats of which 13 have no chance of turning blue. Which leaves 13 possible Cons gains on the whole brexit more important than party loyalty thing. This is balanced by the 13 possible Cons losses in Scotland.

    So net net a wash and Cons need to look elsewhere for their OM.

    It would be rather delicious if Boris got his constructed election and the House didn’t change.
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,122

    It seems as if MPs will be asked to vote on a Johnson Deal without actually being able to scrutinise it. If they approve it, the Benn Act becomes redundant. At which point Johnson can repudiate the Deal and take the UK out with no deal on 31st October.

    Why would he want to do that, if the deal passes?
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,973
    edited October 2019

    Corbyn just now on Sky

    'I will not countenance a Scots Independence referendum in the early years of a labour government'

    Hello G, these losers pontificating that they will not allow a democratic vote is very helpful. Can you imagine that this absolute loser could try to dictate what a country can do or not do.
    Just surprised he did not say "Scotch"
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Chris said:

    It seems as if MPs will be asked to vote on a Johnson Deal without actually being able to scrutinise it. If they approve it, the Benn Act becomes redundant. At which point Johnson can repudiate the Deal and take the UK out with no deal on 31st October.

    Why would he want to do that, if the deal passes?
    The theory is that he can be in favour of no deal, and be presenting a deal purely to overcome the Benn Act.

    The Benn Act means that here has to be what we used to call a ‘Meaningful Vote’ on the deal, and if that passes then the PM isn’t required to ask for an extension.

    The potential loophole is that, if the single meaningful vote passes, there then needs to be legislation to implement the agreement, which could be withdrawn by government (maybe following an amendment for a referendum) and we leave on 31st with no deal if that legislation is not passed.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Only a matter of time now and it will be a landslide when it comes.

    Looks a cert now. If I were I Scot, I would be a switcher.

    Brexit is very symbolic of how the Union is broken, it has no future.

    The resilience of the pro-Union vote is remarkable. But the flow is all one way. I see that Billy Connolly - who used to be utterly scathing about the nationalists - has backed independence now.

    Billy Connolly has always been left of centre and he was a Remainer so not that surprising, he is very much SNP demographic, great comedian though he is.



    Garbage , he was dead against independence in 2014 but has come to his senses and realised that democracy should prevail against colonialism.
    The perception has changed . Whereas before Brexit it looked like the SNP were a nationalist movement now it looks like they are the internationalists leaving the petty English Nationalists behind
  • Options
    malcolmg said:

    Corbyn just now on Sky

    'I will not countenance a Scots Independence referendum in the early years of a labour government'

    Hello G, these losers pontificating that they will not allow a democratic vote is very helpful. Can you imagine that this absolute loser could try to dictate what a country can do or not do.
    Just surprised he did not say "Scotch"
    Morning Malc. I love your 'Scotch' comment.

    Today's poll gives labour one seat, maybe that should be zero
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,629
    Sandpit said:

    Chris said:

    It seems as if MPs will be asked to vote on a Johnson Deal without actually being able to scrutinise it. If they approve it, the Benn Act becomes redundant. At which point Johnson can repudiate the Deal and take the UK out with no deal on 31st October.

    Why would he want to do that, if the deal passes?
    The theory is that he can be in favour of no deal, and be presenting a deal purely to overcome the Benn Act.

    The Benn Act means that here has to be what we used to call a ‘Meaningful Vote’ on the deal, and if that passes then the PM isn’t required to ask for an extension.

    The potential loophole is that, if the single meaningful vote passes, there then needs to be legislation to implement the agreement, which could be withdrawn by government (maybe following an amendment for a referendum) and we leave on 31st with no deal if that legislation is not passed.
    No Deal in 2019 now 7.6 on BFx, starting to look value again imo.

    Incidentally the BFX minimal deal is the one to pick surely?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited October 2019
    TOPPING said:

    I keep coming back to that bloke on Week in Westminster. He put it thus: there are 26 so called Northern Labour leave seats of which 13 have no chance of turning blue. Which leaves 13 possible Cons gains on the whole brexit more important than party loyalty thing. This is balanced by the 13 possible Cons losses in Scotland.

    So net net a wash and Cons need to look elsewhere for their OM.

    Except we now know there will only be 8 Tory losses in Scotland not 13 with the new Panelbase today.

    So still a net Tory gain of 5 seats in the North and Scotland combined and that is ignoring Tory gains from Labour in the Midlands, Wales and London current polls project
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,999

    Corbyn just now on Sky

    'I will not countenance a Scots Independence referendum in the early years of a labour government'

    However, a Labour/SNP coalition government might be a different matter...
  • Options
    Chris said:

    It seems as if MPs will be asked to vote on a Johnson Deal without actually being able to scrutinise it. If they approve it, the Benn Act becomes redundant. At which point Johnson can repudiate the Deal and take the UK out with no deal on 31st October.

    Why would he want to do that, if the deal passes?

    Because the deal is a sham being used as nothing more than a means to get us out on 31st October. Would you trust Johnson not to do something like that? If it’s a deal worth doing it’s a deal worth scrutinising properly and extending for.

  • Options
    What's going to be entertaining about Bozza's deal is that it will repulse all of the voters he has gaslit. The only form of Brexit acceptable to these angry radicalised idiots is no deal. So they aren't going to reward him if he manages to find enough of a climbdown to get a redecorate WA agreed. They are already screaming betrayal. And they will vote Brexit to express their outrage
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    Dura_Ace said:

    Corbyn just now on Sky

    'I will not countenance a Scots Independence referendum in the early years of a labour government'

    However, a Labour/SNP coalition government might be a different matter...
    No - He was asked that specific question
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,629
    Roger said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Only a matter of time now and it will be a landslide when it comes.

    Looks a cert now. If I were I Scot, I would be a switcher.

    Brexit is very symbolic of how the Union is broken, it has no future.

    The resilience of the pro-Union vote is remarkable. But the flow is all one way. I see that Billy Connolly - who used to be utterly scathing about the nationalists - has backed independence now.

    Billy Connolly has always been left of centre and he was a Remainer so not that surprising, he is very much SNP demographic, great comedian though he is.



    Garbage , he was dead against independence in 2014 but has come to his senses and realised that democracy should prevail against colonialism.
    The perception has changed . Whereas before Brexit it looked like the SNP were a nationalist movement now it looks like they are the internationalists leaving the petty English Nationalists behind
    Yes, the credibility of Unionists is destroyed by Brexit. It is not just the issue of membership itself, but also the contempt of the Brexiteers for Scottish opinion.
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,122
    Sandpit said:

    Chris said:

    It seems as if MPs will be asked to vote on a Johnson Deal without actually being able to scrutinise it. If they approve it, the Benn Act becomes redundant. At which point Johnson can repudiate the Deal and take the UK out with no deal on 31st October.

    Why would he want to do that, if the deal passes?
    The theory is that he can be in favour of no deal, and be presenting a deal purely to overcome the Benn Act.

    The Benn Act means that here has to be what we used to call a ‘Meaningful Vote’ on the deal, and if that passes then the PM isn’t required to ask for an extension.

    The potential loophole is that, if the single meaningful vote passes, there then needs to be legislation to implement the agreement, which could be withdrawn by government (maybe following an amendment for a referendum) and we leave on 31st with no deal if that legislation is not passed.
    But I'm asking why he would want to do that.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited October 2019

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Only a matter of time now and it will be a landslide when it comes.

    Looks a cert now. If I were I Scot, I would be a switcher.

    Brexit is very symbolic of how the Union is broken, it has no future.

    The resilience of the pro-Union vote is remarkable. But the flow is all one way. I see that Billy Connolly - who used to be utterly scathing about the nationalists - has backed independence now.

    Billy Connolly has always been left of centre and he was a Remainer so not that surprising, he is very much SNP demographic, great comedian though he is.

    But he was vocally opposed you independence. Now he supports it. That’s rather the point.

    Given 50% of Scots still oppose independence even today with Panelbase and Yes got 45% in 2014 before Brexit, we can say Billy Connolly just falls within the 5% of Scottish voters who put Scotland remaining in the EU above staying in the UK on a forced choice.

    Even if they would prefer Scotland to stay in the UK and EU they prefer Scottish independence if English and Welsh voters want to Leave the EU.
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    Jo Swinson thinks it is entirely possible that the Lib Dems could be a majority government with 'me' as Prime Minister

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    eekeek Posts: 24,980
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    I keep coming back to that bloke on Week in Westminster. He put it thus: there are 26 so called Northern Labour leave seats of which 13 have no chance of turning blue. Which leaves 13 possible Cons gains on the whole brexit more important than party loyalty thing. This is balanced by the 13 possible Cons losses in Scotland.

    So net net a wash and Cons need to look elsewhere for their OM.

    Except we now know there will only be 8 Tory losses in Scotland not 13 with the new Panelbase today.

    So still a net Tory gain of 5 seats in the North and Scotland combined and that is ignoring Tory gains from Labour in the Midlands, Wales and London current polls project
    Only because you miss out Remain South East seats that will go yellow from Blue.

    I suspect the Tories have to find 18-20 seats just to stand still and that assumes they win all the seats of the 22 Boris has kicked out.
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    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,601
    I wonder whether we are all familiar with the well documented fact that presidential challengers generally underperform in head to head polls with a sitting president during the period when they are actively competing with other challengers for the nomination, by comparison with their performance once their nomination has been secured. Two reasons are normally cited. Firstly that the candidate can switch their appeal towards issues which appeal to the country as a whole rather than to their activist base. Secondly, the party machinery and supporters are able to rally behind and promote a single candidate in contrast to the infighting between rivals in primaries.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,302
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    I keep coming back to that bloke on Week in Westminster. He put it thus: there are 26 so called Northern Labour leave seats of which 13 have no chance of turning blue. Which leaves 13 possible Cons gains on the whole brexit more important than party loyalty thing. This is balanced by the 13 possible Cons losses in Scotland.

    So net net a wash and Cons need to look elsewhere for their OM.

    Except we now know there will only be 8 Tory losses in Scotland not 13 with the new Panelbase today.

    So still a net Tory gain of 5 seats in the North and Scotland combined and that is ignoring Tory gains from Labour in the Midlands, Wales and London current polls project
    We don't know anything. We have a pre-election poll.
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    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    malcolmg said:

    Only a matter of time now and it will be a landslide when it comes.

    Looks a cert now. If I were I Scot, I would be a switcher.

    Brexit is very symbolic of how the Union is broken, it has no future.

    The resilience of the pro-Union vote is remarkable. But the flow is all one way. I see that Billy Connolly - who used to be utterly scathing about the nationalists - has backed independence now.

    Billy Connolly has always been left of centre and he was a Remainer so not that surprising, he is very much SNP demographic, great comedian though he is.

    But he was vocally opposed you independence. Now he supports it. That’s rather the point.

    Given 50% of Scots still oppose independence even today with Panelbase and Yes got 45% in 2014 before Brexit, we can say Billy Connolly just falls within the 5% of Scottish voters who put Scotland remaining in the EU above staying in the UK on a forced choice.

    Even if they would prefer Scotland to stay in the UK and EU they prefer Scottish independence if English and Welsh voters want to Leave the EU.

    As I said, the direction of travel is all one way. If you do not wish to accept that, so be it.

This discussion has been closed.