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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ladbrokes make it 6/4 that there’ll be another Brexit referend

SystemSystem Posts: 11,682
edited October 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ladbrokes make it 6/4 that there’ll be another Brexit referendum before the end of next year

Given how difficult Johnson has had in winning votes in the House of Commons this morning’s Queen’s Speech had a touch a fantasy about it. His Government is in a minority and thanks to the Fixed-Term Parliament Act he is unable to call a general election to ameliorate the situation.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,218
    First.
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    The Government is embarrassing the Queen by dragging her into the political arena.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    Hillary Clinton says she 'fears' for Britain under PM Boris Johnson, describing both him and Trump as 'blowhards' and 'authoritarians.'

    https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2019/10/14/hillary-clinton-says-she-fears-for-britain-under-boris-johnson/
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    25/1 for this year?! That's way too short. It's simply not possible in the time available
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,335
    Do we actually know for sure that the Queen's Speech will not get a majority? I don't have a feeling for how all the Tory expulsees are feeling, but perhaps some of them think the speech is fine except for the, cough, unfortunate references to Brexit and want to keep channels open to a possible return one day, so will vote for it?
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,218
    HYUFD said:

    Hillary Clinton says she 'fears' for Britain under PM Boris Johnson, describing both him and Trump as 'blowhards' and 'authoritarians.'

    https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2019/10/14/hillary-clinton-says-she-fears-for-britain-under-boris-johnson/

    Deplorable?
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited October 2019
    BBC Radio 4: Richard Burgon confirms that official Labour policy is for a general election before a referendum, and that the entire shadow cabinet agrees with this position.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,218

    Do we actually know for sure that the Queen's Speech will not get a majority? I don't have a feeling for how all the Tory expulsees are feeling, but perhaps some of them think the speech is fine except for the, cough, unfortunate references to Brexit and want to keep channels open to a possible return one day, so will vote for it?

    It is Johnson's right to try. I'm not sure why we have so much pearl clutching at this.

    If MPs don't like him having a QS, they should have given him the GE he wanted.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    I'll lay that 2019 price for as much as anyone wants to offer.
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    BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    6/4 seems ridiculously short given there is no sign of a PV on the horizon, the 6/4 and 4/1 certainly don't match up - you'd expect a Remain win to be 2/1 in that case.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,218
    AndyJS said:

    BBC Radio 4: Richard Burgon confirms that official Labour policy is for a general election before a referendum.

    Except he is from the Corbyn camp.

    The McDonnell camp is telling radio the exact opposite.
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    AndyJS said:

    BBC Radio 4: Richard Burgon confirms that official Labour policy is for a general election before a referendum, and that the entire shadow cabinet agrees with this position.

    Given the current state of labour party announcements, that position will have probably changed by teatime.
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    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,461

    Do we actually know for sure that the Queen's Speech will not get a majority? I don't have a feeling for how all the Tory expulsees are feeling, but perhaps some of them think the speech is fine except for the, cough, unfortunate references to Brexit and want to keep channels open to a possible return one day, so will vote for it?

    It is Johnson's right to try. I'm not sure why we have so much pearl clutching at this.

    If MPs don't like him having a QS, they should have given him the GE he wanted.
    MPs seem to have got themselves into such a state in the past few weeks that they will moan about anything and everything. A lot of them seem to have lost all sense of proportion.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    edited October 2019
    Noo said:

    Europe: That UK, eh? It's a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma, all swaddled in a load of Ruritanian pish.

    https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1183673365359411200?s=20

    It's a morris dancer, wrapped inside a tapestry, all swaddled in a plastic itch cone. Do you think they know they look like a bunch of tossers?
    I'm sure they know it looks ridiculous. What does that matter?

    Next step let's complaining about the US president pardoning Turkeys.

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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,218
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    Do we actually know for sure that the Queen's Speech will not get a majority? I don't have a feeling for how all the Tory expulsees are feeling, but perhaps some of them think the speech is fine except for the, cough, unfortunate references to Brexit and want to keep channels open to a possible return one day, so will vote for it?

    It's possible that they or most of them might support it. On the specific point of Brexit, Faisal Islam has pointed out that there's almost no reference to a No Deal outcome in the speech itself or the explanatory document, which would certainly make it easier for them to support it.

    Still, it's a side-show really.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kle4 said:

    Noo said:

    Europe: That UK, eh? It's a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma, all swaddled in a load of Ruritanian pish.

    https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1183673365359411200?s=20

    It's a morris dancer, wrapped inside a tapestry, all swaddled in a plastic itch cone. Do you think they know they look like a bunch of tossers?
    I'm sure they know it looks ridiculous. What does that matter?

    Next step let's complaining about the US president pardoning Turkeys.

    I don't mind Presidents pardoning Turkey (IIRC its only one). I do mind them facilitating Turkey-led genocide
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,421
    FPT:
    Noo said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/13/tories-distract-from-brexit-crime-focused-queens-speech

    Depressing read.

    Evidence based policy is needed more than ever in criminal justice, but 'Hangman' Patel shows her true ignorant reactionary colours.

    What an awful Home Secretary we have indeed.

    If you read this criticism from the piece:

    'Frances Crook, chief executive from the Howard League for Penal Reform, said the sentencing changes were not “a sensible, evidence-based policy”. She said: “It is the politics of the lynch mob … this is about making people spend more time in prison, which will affect thousands of men and will probably put staff in danger by taking hope away from people. We already know that prisoners are in appalling conditions, with a lot of violence, injury and suicides. A lot of it is directed at staff. It’s very irresponsible.”'

    What she is saying is that if we don't release these prisoners early, they will inflict violence on prison staff. Does that indicate that we should support these prisoners being released early? It is inherently contradictory.
    Sure, that's exactly what she's saying. If you want to oversimplify it to the point of gutting most of the meaning out of it. But then... of course you do.
    Not having access to her words in full, I don't know if she offers more nuance, but to me she is very clearly saying she fears a violent backlash on prison staff if 2/3 sentences are implemented, clearly implying that it would be safer for prison staff if we release these people earlier. I don't see that argument being very convincing to a member of the public. If you have a different interpretation, I'm all ears.
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    numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 5,461
    He wants to force through a meaningful vote as quickly as he can, though it might backfire if MPs say they don’t have enough time to scrutinise it.

    (I suspect there will be a deal now, though it won’t be anything like what the ERG and the DUP hope for).

    Someone mentioned on here that the EU might say “here’s the deal, no more extensions except to implement it.” I think that could well happen. It will force the Commons into deal or revoke (we all know it will not back no deal).
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    "Bring 'em on! I'd prefer a straight fight to all this sneaking around!"
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,817
    edited October 2019
    LOL! Basically the doors are going to be locked and they're not being let out until something is agreed! :D
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    AFAIK there isn't enough time for a referendum this year.
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    Ladbrokes: Second referendum by end of 2020: 6/4
    Ladbrokes: Man Utd home win at Old Trafford this weekend: 18/5

    Does this mean Ladbrokes are rating a second referendum as roughly three times as likely as Manchester United to win at home?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Do we actually know for sure that the Queen's Speech will not get a majority? I don't have a feeling for how all the Tory expulsees are feeling, but perhaps some of them think the speech is fine except for the, cough, unfortunate references to Brexit and want to keep channels open to a possible return one day, so will vote for it?

    Surely anyone who doesn't want the government to resign tomorrow, would be in favour of it?
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    The Government is embarrassing the Queen by dragging her into the political arena.

    Its her job. If she doesn't want to do her job she should abdicate and we can have politicians doing politics and a political head of state.
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    AndyJS said:

    BBC Radio 4: Richard Burgon confirms that official Labour policy is for a general election before a referendum.

    Except he is from the Corbyn camp.

    The McDonnell camp is telling radio the exact opposite.
    They want to try and get out of this with 200 seats rather than 100
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    Do we actually know for sure that the Queen's Speech will not get a majority? I don't have a feeling for how all the Tory expulsees are feeling, but perhaps some of them think the speech is fine except for the, cough, unfortunate references to Brexit and want to keep channels open to a possible return one day, so will vote for it?

    It's possible that they or most of them might support it. On the specific point of Brexit, Faisal Islam has pointed out that there's almost no reference to a No Deal outcome in the speech itself or the explanatory document, which would certainly make it easier for them to support it.

    Still, it's a side-show really.
    I’m not sure. If (yes, not a trivial “if”) a deal passes on Saturday, then a Queen’s Speech win would feed a “comeback” narrative the media would love. Especially if it was said to have been impossible.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,421
    edited October 2019

    The Government is embarrassing the Queen by dragging her into the political arena.

    If she can bear reading out Tony Blair's split infinitives, this is a walk in the park.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    AndyJS said:

    AFAIK there isn't enough time for a referendum this year.

    And the longer we wait, the fewer public halls etc for counts will be available.
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    GIN1138 said:

    LOL! Basically the doors are going to be locked and they're not being let out until something is agreed! :D
    FFS they have talked and talked and talked about this. We have had more bloviating MPs rattling on about their entrenched positions on this than on any other subject in our history.

    The time for talking is over. None of them have anything new to say.
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    Do we actually know for sure that the Queen's Speech will not get a majority? I don't have a feeling for how all the Tory expulsees are feeling, but perhaps some of them think the speech is fine except for the, cough, unfortunate references to Brexit and want to keep channels open to a possible return one day, so will vote for it?

    It's possible that they or most of them might support it. On the specific point of Brexit, Faisal Islam has pointed out that there's almost no reference to a No Deal outcome in the speech itself or the explanatory document, which would certainly make it easier for them to support it.

    Still, it's a side-show really.
    I’m not sure. If (yes, not a trivial “if”) a deal passes on Saturday, then a Queen’s Speech win would feed a “comeback” narrative the media would love. Especially if it was said to have been impossible.
    When will the Queen's Speech be voted on? Surely before Saturday?
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Do we actually know for sure that the Queen's Speech will not get a majority? I don't have a feeling for how all the Tory expulsees are feeling, but perhaps some of them think the speech is fine except for the, cough, unfortunate references to Brexit and want to keep channels open to a possible return one day, so will vote for it?

    The rebels seem to be in 2 camps. Those that might return are the majority, maybe 12 to 15, the rest seem to have the fire of zealots and are 'neverweres'. Hammond, Grieve, Greening, perhaps Gauke, Rudd'........
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    AndyJS said:

    AFAIK there isn't enough time for a referendum this year.

    And the longer we wait, the fewer public halls etc for counts will be available.
    As I just said on the previous thread:

    "That's not really an issue. Hall bookings are cancelled all the time - I have had a number of rehearsals cancelled/moved because of bookings for elections. A way is always found - venues will always put the needs of an election ahead of regular hall users."

    Given in the pre-FTPA era, elections were called at much shorter notice than we get now, this was never an issue then and won't be an issue now.
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Do we actually know for sure that the Queen's Speech will not get a majority? I don't have a feeling for how all the Tory expulsees are feeling, but perhaps some of them think the speech is fine except for the, cough, unfortunate references to Brexit and want to keep channels open to a possible return one day, so will vote for it?

    It's possible that they or most of them might support it. On the specific point of Brexit, Faisal Islam has pointed out that there's almost no reference to a No Deal outcome in the speech itself or the explanatory document, which would certainly make it easier for them to support it.

    Still, it's a side-show really.
    I’m not sure. If (yes, not a trivial “if”) a deal passes on Saturday, then a Queen’s Speech win would feed a “comeback” narrative the media would love. Especially if it was said to have been impossible.
    When will the Queen's Speech be voted on? Surely before Saturday?
    I think next Monday.......
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    AndyJS said:

    AFAIK there isn't enough time for a referendum this year.

    And the longer we wait, the fewer public halls etc for counts will be available.
    As I just said on the previous thread:

    "That's not really an issue. Hall bookings are cancelled all the time - I have had a number of rehearsals cancelled/moved because of bookings for elections. A way is always found - venues will always put the needs of an election ahead of regular hall users."

    Given in the pre-FTPA era, elections were called at much shorter notice than we get now, this was never an issue then and won't be an issue now.
    There'll be more anger if Christmas performances get cancelled than routine rehearsals.
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    ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503
    148grss said:
    Guardian doesn’t like Tory Queen’s Speech shocker.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,981

    Do we actually know for sure that the Queen's Speech will not get a majority? I don't have a feeling for how all the Tory expulsees are feeling, but perhaps some of them think the speech is fine except for the, cough, unfortunate references to Brexit and want to keep channels open to a possible return one day, so will vote for it?

    It's possible that they or most of them might support it. On the specific point of Brexit, Faisal Islam has pointed out that there's almost no reference to a No Deal outcome in the speech itself or the explanatory document, which would certainly make it easier for them to support it.

    Still, it's a side-show really.
    I’m not sure. If (yes, not a trivial “if”) a deal passes on Saturday, then a Queen’s Speech win would feed a “comeback” narrative the media would love. Especially if it was said to have been impossible.
    When will the Queen's Speech be voted on? Surely before Saturday?
    I think next Monday.......
    I think it has to be Thursday as (from dim and distance o' level politics memory) Parliament can't vote on anything until the Queen's speech has been voted on.
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    148grss148grss Posts: 3,679
    kle4 said:

    Noo said:

    Europe: That UK, eh? It's a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma, all swaddled in a load of Ruritanian pish.

    https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1183673365359411200?s=20

    It's a morris dancer, wrapped inside a tapestry, all swaddled in a plastic itch cone. Do you think they know they look like a bunch of tossers?
    I'm sure they know it looks ridiculous. What does that matter?

    Next step let's complaining about the US president pardoning Turkeys.

    The issue is pardoning Turkeys is fine for Thanksgiving and Xmas. Pomp and circumstance when we're apparently on the constitutional knife edge just seems like fiddling whilst Rome burns.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    edited October 2019

    GIN1138 said:

    LOL! Basically the doors are going to be locked and they're not being let out until something is agreed! :D
    FFS they have talked and talked and talked about this. We have had more bloviating MPs rattling on about their entrenched positions on this than on any other subject in our history.

    The time for talking is over. None of them have anything new to say.
    This is a silly talking point. Their job isn't to talk about *brexit* overall, it's to scrutinize the specific proposal the government is proposing. This is important because governments will often fail to take account of important issues, and will sometimes deliberately conceal problems in a way that's hard to reveal without detailed questioning. A lot of this work happens in committees not the floor of the House, which in high-profile debates does indeed tend to attract a lot of repetitive bloviating.

    They haven't yet spent a single day talking about what the government is proposing, because nobody knows WTF the government is proposing. It's ridiculous to say that the government needs three and a half years to work out an acceptable proposal, but then they can't even spare a few weeks for parliament to ask them what it'll mean in practice.
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    148grss said:
    Guardian doesn’t like Tory Queen’s Speech shocker.
    And The 'My political persuasion is not so Secret Barrister' retweets it double shocker
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    148grss148grss Posts: 3,679
    edited October 2019

    148grss said:
    Guardian doesn’t like Tory Queen’s Speech shocker.
    And a barrister that has a long history of talking about the failings of this government in spending regarding criminal justice is what, just another expert to be ignored? Just because they're writing in the Guardian, doesn't mean one shouldn't look at what they have to say.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    148grss said:
    Guardian doesn’t like Tory Queen’s Speech shocker.
    And The 'My political persuasion is not so Secret Barrister' retweets it double shocker
    To be fair to him, he did write the piece.
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Sandpit said:

    148grss said:
    Guardian doesn’t like Tory Queen’s Speech shocker.
    And The 'My political persuasion is not so Secret Barrister' retweets it double shocker
    To be fair to him, he did write the piece.
    Oh pish , I'm not letting facts get in the way of my ranting
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Sandpit said:

    148grss said:
    Guardian doesn’t like Tory Queen’s Speech shocker.
    And The 'My political persuasion is not so Secret Barrister' retweets it double shocker
    To be fair to him, he did write the piece.
    The remainer barrister. Is it Jolyan Maugham ?
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    148grss said:
    Guardian doesn’t like Tory Queen’s Speech shocker.
    And The 'My political persuasion is not so Secret Barrister' retweets it double shocker
    To be fair to him, he did write the piece.
    The remainer barrister. Is it Jolyan Maugham ?
    Cant be, he absolutely hates the sound of his own voice. Very reserved and humble man
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited October 2019
    There was a sharp *pop*, and the duplicate comment was gone.
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    AndyJS said:

    AFAIK there isn't enough time for a referendum this year.

    And the longer we wait, the fewer public halls etc for counts will be available.
    As I just said on the previous thread:

    "That's not really an issue. Hall bookings are cancelled all the time - I have had a number of rehearsals cancelled/moved because of bookings for elections. A way is always found - venues will always put the needs of an election ahead of regular hall users."

    Given in the pre-FTPA era, elections were called at much shorter notice than we get now, this was never an issue then and won't be an issue now.
    There'll be more anger if Christmas performances get cancelled than routine rehearsals.
    I don't know of many polling stations that take place in theatres. And they are the locations that are known and fixed. If an election is called, polling stations will be opened where they usually are. Schools will be closed for the day where necessary. Bookings will be cancelled.

    Counts can take place in a wide range of spaces. Councils will find large enough venues. If really isn't a big job
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Anorak said:

    148grss said:
    Guardian doesn’t like Tory Queen’s Speech shocker.
    And The 'My political persuasion is not so Secret Barrister' retweets it double shocker
    He (assume it's a he) wrote that article.
    I see that now.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150

    Do we actually know for sure that the Queen's Speech will not get a majority? I don't have a feeling for how all the Tory expulsees are feeling, but perhaps some of them think the speech is fine except for the, cough, unfortunate references to Brexit and want to keep channels open to a possible return one day, so will vote for it?

    The rebels seem to be in 2 camps. Those that might return are the majority, maybe 12 to 15, the rest seem to have the fire of zealots and are 'neverweres'. Hammond, Grieve, Greening, perhaps Gauke, Rudd'........
    That doesn't seem like enough to pass, but are any of the TIGs / ex-Labour independents potentially amenable?
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    CatManCatMan Posts: 2,770

    148grss said:
    Guardian doesn’t like Tory Queen’s Speech shocker.
    What in the article is wrong?
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    TabmanTabman Posts: 1,046
    If the odds on a Remain victory are 4/1 (25%), surely that means Leave is 1/4 (75%) in a second referendum?

    Given the polls show a small but consistent Remain majority, why is this?
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    148grss148grss Posts: 3,679
    Anorak said:

    148grss said:
    Guardian doesn’t like Tory Queen’s Speech shocker.
    And The 'My political persuasion is not so Secret Barrister' retweets it double shocker
    He (assume it's a he) wrote that article.
    I thought Secret Barrister was a she, but I try to use the grammatically correct singular "they" as they are obviously aiming for anonymity.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Anorak said:

    148grss said:
    Guardian doesn’t like Tory Queen’s Speech shocker.
    And The 'My political persuasion is not so Secret Barrister' retweets it double shocker
    He (assume it's a he) wrote that article.
    I see that now.
    Whatever you think of his politics, his portrait of Patel as a reactionary, populist half-wit is spot on.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Tabman said:

    If the odds on a Remain victory are 4/1 (25%), surely that means Leave is 1/4 (75%) in a second referendum?

    Given the polls show a small but consistent Remain majority, why is this?

    It includes the risk that there's no referendum, and the risk that remain is not on the ballot. A lot of things need to happen for us to remain by year-end.
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    edited October 2019

    Do we actually know for sure that the Queen's Speech will not get a majority? I don't have a feeling for how all the Tory expulsees are feeling, but perhaps some of them think the speech is fine except for the, cough, unfortunate references to Brexit and want to keep channels open to a possible return one day, so will vote for it?

    The rebels seem to be in 2 camps. Those that might return are the majority, maybe 12 to 15, the rest seem to have the fire of zealots and are 'neverweres'. Hammond, Grieve, Greening, perhaps Gauke, Rudd'........
    That doesn't seem like enough to pass, but are any of the TIGs / ex-Labour independents potentially amenable?
    I think the rebel rebels will abstain. Some indies will be amenable, possibly enough. It will be very very tight. Kate Hoey is a possible yes vote, omara and mann will be effective abstentions. Hermon 'might' vote in favour or abstain. Austin, Lewis might abstain but will likely vote against. If the majority of rebels vote yes and a few abstain I think it squeezes through. If hammond and co vote against its going down.......
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    Tabman said:

    If the odds on a Remain victory are 4/1 (25%), surely that means Leave is 1/4 (75%) in a second referendum?

    Given the polls show a small but consistent Remain majority, why is this?

    I think the bet is for a referendum to happen in 2020 AND Remain to win.

    (BTW 4/1 corresponds to a 20% chance).
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,124

    He wants to force through a meaningful vote as quickly as he can, though it might backfire if MPs say they don’t have enough time to scrutinise it.

    (I suspect there will be a deal now, though it won’t be anything like what the ERG and the DUP hope for).

    Someone mentioned on here that the EU might say “here’s the deal, no more extensions except to implement it.” I think that could well happen. It will force the Commons into deal or revoke (we all know it will not back no deal).
    I think it's unbelievable now that there can be a deal fit to be voted on by Saturday - let alone to be passed into law by the end of the month.

    Maybe there can be some kind of deal in principle, but the indications don't look promising.

    Surely there is going to be an extension now.
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    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870
    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    148grss said:
    Guardian doesn’t like Tory Queen’s Speech shocker.
    And The 'My political persuasion is not so Secret Barrister' retweets it double shocker
    He (assume it's a he) wrote that article.
    I see that now.
    Whatever you think of his politics, his portrait of Patel as a reactionary, populist half-wit is spot on.
    "Half" is probably overstating it.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,775
    edited October 2019
    Tabman said:

    If the odds on a Remain victory are 4/1 (25%), surely that means Leave is 1/4 (75%) in a second referendum?

    Given the polls show a small but consistent Remain majority, why is this?

    4/1 is 20%. It's d/(n+d), so 1/(4+1) = 1/5 = 0.2
    1/4 is 80%. It's d/(n+d), so 4/(1+4) = 4/5 = 0.8
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Anorak said:

    Anorak said:

    148grss said:
    Guardian doesn’t like Tory Queen’s Speech shocker.
    And The 'My political persuasion is not so Secret Barrister' retweets it double shocker
    He (assume it's a he) wrote that article.
    I see that now.
    Whatever you think of his politics, his portrait of Patel as a reactionary, populist half-wit is spot on.
    When the alternative is Diane 'mince' Abbott she can afford to be a bit shit
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited October 2019
    Is the EU going to condemn these sentences for Catalan leaders?

    https://twitter.com/josepgoded/status/1183647496226164736
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Interesting odds.

    It should be even shorter. But that does require MPs to actually act coherently. So far they've been much better at opposing everything.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,775
    Anorak said:

    There was a sharp *pop*, and the duplicate comment was gone.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9TQFEFDMUI
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    edited October 2019
    AndyJS said:
    That's really not good.

    Sadly, nothing will come of it of course, until possibly a new government pardons them in future. The EU should act but won't, long sentences like this for sedition are not compatible with basic human rights given that we're not talking about people trying to overthrow the government by physical force.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    viewcode said:

    Tabman said:

    If the odds on a Remain victory are 4/1 (25%), surely that means Leave is 1/4 (75%) in a second referendum?

    Given the polls show a small but consistent Remain majority, why is this?

    4/1 is 20%. It's d/(n+d), so 1/(4+1) = 1/5 = 0.2
    1/4 is 80%. It's d/(n+d), so 4/(1+4) = 4/5 = 0.8
    Maybe the opposite of Remain includes supporting a Deal as well as Leave.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205

    GIN1138 said:

    LOL! Basically the doors are going to be locked and they're not being let out until something is agreed! :D
    FFS they have talked and talked and talked about this. We have had more bloviating MPs rattling on about their entrenched positions on this than on any other subject in our history.

    The time for talking is over. None of them have anything new to say.
    This is a silly talking point. Their job isn't to talk about *brexit* overall, it's to scrutinize the specific proposal the government is proposing. This is important because governments will often fail to take account of important issues, and will sometimes deliberately conceal problems in a way that's hard to reveal without detailed questioning. A lot of this work happens in committees not the floor of the House, which in high-profile debates does indeed tend to attract a lot of repetitive bloviating.

    They haven't yet spent a single day talking about what the government is proposing, because nobody knows WTF the government is proposing. It's ridiculous to say that the government needs three and a half years to work out an acceptable proposal, but then they can't even spare a few weeks for parliament to ask them what it'll mean in practice.
    Well said. If - a big if - there is a deal, it will affect the lives of everyone for years to come. The very least we have the right to expect is that it be properly scrutinised notrushed through after a 5 hour debate.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150

    Do we actually know for sure that the Queen's Speech will not get a majority? I don't have a feeling for how all the Tory expulsees are feeling, but perhaps some of them think the speech is fine except for the, cough, unfortunate references to Brexit and want to keep channels open to a possible return one day, so will vote for it?

    The rebels seem to be in 2 camps. Those that might return are the majority, maybe 12 to 15, the rest seem to have the fire of zealots and are 'neverweres'. Hammond, Grieve, Greening, perhaps Gauke, Rudd'........
    That doesn't seem like enough to pass, but are any of the TIGs / ex-Labour independents potentially amenable?
    I think the rebel rebels will abstain. Some indies will be amenable, possibly enough. It will be very very tight. Kate Hoey is a possible yes vote, omara and mann will be effective abstentions. Hermon 'might' vote in favour or abstain. Austin, Lewis might abstain but will likely vote against. If the majority of rebels vote yes and a few abstain I think it squeezes through. If hammond and co vote against its going down.......
    I wonder how much solidarity the ex-Cons have. If they can stick together it seems like a decent opportunity for them to say, sure we'll vote for you, but only if you restore the whip. If you don't want our support, you won't get it.
  • Options
    When even a Scottish Tory thinks you're fcuking up, you're really fcuking up

    https://twitter.com/murdo_fraser/status/1183712603803136000?s=20.

    Some of the replies from the Unionist fraternity are a joy to behold.

  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    edited October 2019
    Edit : @Theuniondivvie Madrid does however have a veto on new EU entrants

    The line the SNP take on Scotland being "automatically" an EU state isn't sound. Madrid could potentially push back on it, pour encourager les Catalans.

    Independent Scotland might well end up an independent EU state but it's not guaranteed. It also gives London a tremendous amount of power, no Section 30 => UDI = No EU membership for Scotland for sure.
  • Options
    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Do we actually know for sure that the Queen's Speech will not get a majority? I don't have a feeling for how all the Tory expulsees are feeling, but perhaps some of them think the speech is fine except for the, cough, unfortunate references to Brexit and want to keep channels open to a possible return one day, so will vote for it?

    The rebels seem to be in 2 camps. Those that might return are the majority, maybe 12 to 15, the rest seem to have the fire of zealots and are 'neverweres'. Hammond, Grieve, Greening, perhaps Gauke, Rudd'........
    That doesn't seem like enough to pass, but are any of the TIGs / ex-Labour independents potentially amenable?
    I think the rebel rebels will abstain. Some indies will be amenable, possibly enough. It will be very very tight. Kate Hoey is a possible yes vote, omara and mann will be effective abstentions. Hermon 'might' vote in favour or abstain. Austin, Lewis might abstain but will likely vote against. If the majority of rebels vote yes and a few abstain I think it squeezes through. If hammond and co vote against its going down.......
    I wonder how much solidarity the ex-Cons have. If they can stick together it seems like a decent opportunity for them to say, sure we'll vote for you, but only if you restore the whip. If you don't want our support, you won't get it.
    Get back the reluctant rebels and cut out the cancer. Win win
  • Options

    Do we actually know for sure that the Queen's Speech will not get a majority? I don't have a feeling for how all the Tory expulsees are feeling, but perhaps some of them think the speech is fine except for the, cough, unfortunate references to Brexit and want to keep channels open to a possible return one day, so will vote for it?

    The rebels seem to be in 2 camps. Those that might return are the majority, maybe 12 to 15, the rest seem to have the fire of zealots and are 'neverweres'. Hammond, Grieve, Greening, perhaps Gauke, Rudd'........
    That doesn't seem like enough to pass, but are any of the TIGs / ex-Labour independents potentially amenable?
    I think the rebel rebels will abstain. Some indies will be amenable, possibly enough. It will be very very tight. Kate Hoey is a possible yes vote, omara and mann will be effective abstentions. Hermon 'might' vote in favour or abstain. Austin, Lewis might abstain but will likely vote against. If the majority of rebels vote yes and a few abstain I think it squeezes through. If hammond and co vote against its going down.......
    I wonder how much solidarity the ex-Cons have. If they can stick together it seems like a decent opportunity for them to say, sure we'll vote for you, but only if you restore the whip. If you don't want our support, you won't get it.
    I expect any vote on Brexit and/or the QS will be precisely that.

    Vote for it and you are reinstated and the official conservative candidate at the GE
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067
    Pulpstar said:

    Edit : @Theuniondivvie Madrid does however have a veto on new EU entrants

    The line the SNP take on Scotland being "automatically" an EU state isn't sound. Madrid could potentially push back on it, pour encourager les Catalans.

    Independent Scotland might well end up an independent EU state but it's not guaranteed. It also gives London a tremendous amount of power, no Section 30 => UDI = No EU membership for Scotland for sure.

    Spain has already said they have no issue with Scotland joining the EU as long as independence is achieved constitutionally.
  • Options
    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Do we actually know for sure that the Queen's Speech will not get a majority? I don't have a feeling for how all the Tory expulsees are feeling, but perhaps some of them think the speech is fine except for the, cough, unfortunate references to Brexit and want to keep channels open to a possible return one day, so will vote for it?

    The rebels seem to be in 2 camps. Those that might return are the majority, maybe 12 to 15, the rest seem to have the fire of zealots and are 'neverweres'. Hammond, Grieve, Greening, perhaps Gauke, Rudd'........
    That doesn't seem like enough to pass, but are any of the TIGs / ex-Labour independents potentially amenable?
    I think the rebel rebels will abstain. Some indies will be amenable, possibly enough. It will be very very tight. Kate Hoey is a possible yes vote, omara and mann will be effective abstentions. Hermon 'might' vote in favour or abstain. Austin, Lewis might abstain but will likely vote against. If the majority of rebels vote yes and a few abstain I think it squeezes through. If hammond and co vote against its going down.......
    I wonder how much solidarity the ex-Cons have. If they can stick together it seems like a decent opportunity for them to say, sure we'll vote for you, but only if you restore the whip. If you don't want our support, you won't get it.
    I expect any vote on Brexit and/or the QS will be precisely that.

    Vote for it and you are reinstated and the official conservative candidate at the GE
    Except Grieve and Hammond and maybe Worzel Gummidge/Letwin
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Anorak said:
    Enlighten me please
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Cyclefree said:

    GIN1138 said:

    LOL! Basically the doors are going to be locked and they're not being let out until something is agreed! :D
    FFS they have talked and talked and talked about this. We have had more bloviating MPs rattling on about their entrenched positions on this than on any other subject in our history.

    The time for talking is over. None of them have anything new to say.
    This is a silly talking point. Their job isn't to talk about *brexit* overall, it's to scrutinize the specific proposal the government is proposing. This is important because governments will often fail to take account of important issues, and will sometimes deliberately conceal problems in a way that's hard to reveal without detailed questioning. A lot of this work happens in committees not the floor of the House, which in high-profile debates does indeed tend to attract a lot of repetitive bloviating.

    They haven't yet spent a single day talking about what the government is proposing, because nobody knows WTF the government is proposing. It's ridiculous to say that the government needs three and a half years to work out an acceptable proposal, but then they can't even spare a few weeks for parliament to ask them what it'll mean in practice.
    Well said. If - a big if - there is a deal, it will affect the lives of everyone for years to come. The very least we have the right to expect is that it be properly scrutinised notrushed through after a 5 hour debate.
    Theyve had 3+ years and decided nothing

    maybe a bit of pressure is what they need.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,332

    When even a Scottish Tory thinks you're fcuking up, you're really fcuking up

    https://twitter.com/murdo_fraser/status/1183712603803136000?s=20.

    Some of the replies from the Unionist fraternity are a joy to behold.

    Even I think the sentences handed down by Madrid are draconian and grossly disproportionate. I commented as much this morning.

    Does that make me an honorary Nit?
  • Options

    Do we actually know for sure that the Queen's Speech will not get a majority? I don't have a feeling for how all the Tory expulsees are feeling, but perhaps some of them think the speech is fine except for the, cough, unfortunate references to Brexit and want to keep channels open to a possible return one day, so will vote for it?

    The rebels seem to be in 2 camps. Those that might return are the majority, maybe 12 to 15, the rest seem to have the fire of zealots and are 'neverweres'. Hammond, Grieve, Greening, perhaps Gauke, Rudd'........
    That doesn't seem like enough to pass, but are any of the TIGs / ex-Labour independents potentially amenable?
    I think the rebel rebels will abstain. Some indies will be amenable, possibly enough. It will be very very tight. Kate Hoey is a possible yes vote, omara and mann will be effective abstentions. Hermon 'might' vote in favour or abstain. Austin, Lewis might abstain but will likely vote against. If the majority of rebels vote yes and a few abstain I think it squeezes through. If hammond and co vote against its going down.......
    I wonder how much solidarity the ex-Cons have. If they can stick together it seems like a decent opportunity for them to say, sure we'll vote for you, but only if you restore the whip. If you don't want our support, you won't get it.
    I expect any vote on Brexit and/or the QS will be precisely that.

    Vote for it and you are reinstated and the official conservative candidate at the GE
    Except Grieve and Hammond and maybe Worzel Gummidge/Letwin
    I expect it to apply to them all to be honest. If they vote for brexit and the QS they should be the candidate at the next election

    Hard thinking for Hammond and Grieve but Letwin is standing down anyway
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    Do we actually know for sure that the Queen's Speech will not get a majority? I don't have a feeling for how all the Tory expulsees are feeling, but perhaps some of them think the speech is fine except for the, cough, unfortunate references to Brexit and want to keep channels open to a possible return one day, so will vote for it?

    The rebels seem to be in 2 camps. Those that might return are the majority, maybe 12 to 15, the rest seem to have the fire of zealots and are 'neverweres'. Hammond, Grieve, Greening, perhaps Gauke, Rudd'........
    That doesn't seem like enough to pass, but are any of the TIGs / ex-Labour independents potentially amenable?
    I think the rebel rebels will abstain. Some indies will be amenable, possibly enough. It will be very very tight. Kate Hoey is a possible yes vote, omara and mann will be effective abstentions. Hermon 'might' vote in favour or abstain. Austin, Lewis might abstain but will likely vote against. If the majority of rebels vote yes and a few abstain I think it squeezes through. If hammond and co vote against its going down.......
    I wonder how much solidarity the ex-Cons have. If they can stick together it seems like a decent opportunity for them to say, sure we'll vote for you, but only if you restore the whip. If you don't want our support, you won't get it.
    I think the level of personal contempt for BJ and his Government is being underestimated in reference to those who had the whip withdrawn. Brexit is so fundamental to the economy, I cannot see MP's who have had the whip withdrawn suddenly thinking it is a good idea to support BJ and his Government. If BJ does not ask for an extension then surley BJ will just removed anyway, so what would be the point in helping him get a QS through? Better to keep him week, so you can force him to enact the will of Parliament i.e.Benn act! :smiley:
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    Pulpstar said:

    Edit : @Theuniondivvie Madrid does however have a veto on new EU entrants

    The line the SNP take on Scotland being "automatically" an EU state isn't sound. Madrid could potentially push back on it, pour encourager les Catalans.

    Independent Scotland might well end up an independent EU state but it's not guaranteed. It also gives London a tremendous amount of power, no Section 30 => UDI = No EU membership for Scotland for sure.

    I'm not really aware of anyone saying it would happen automatically, just that it would be easier than if we'd gone indy in 2014. I think the Spanish veto would only really be in play if there was an 'illegal' referendum, hence BJ and chums' desperation to avoid a section 30.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Pulpstar said:

    Edit : @Theuniondivvie Madrid does however have a veto on new EU entrants

    The line the SNP take on Scotland being "automatically" an EU state isn't sound. Madrid could potentially push back on it, pour encourager les Catalans.

    Independent Scotland might well end up an independent EU state but it's not guaranteed. It also gives London a tremendous amount of power, no Section 30 => UDI = No EU membership for Scotland for sure.

    Spain has already said they have no issue with Scotland joining the EU as long as independence is achieved constitutionally.
    "is achieved constitutionally." Hence the necessity for a section 30 from London and why Sturgeon is leaning so heavily on Corbyn for this as the price of supporting his Gov't.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,332

    148grss said:
    Guardian doesn’t like Tory Queen’s Speech shocker.
    The Secret Barrister is so Left-wing he makes Jeremy Corbyn look like Jacob Rees-Mogg.
  • Options
    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Do we actually know for sure that the Queen's Speech will not get a majority? I don't have a feeling for how all the Tory expulsees are feeling, but perhaps some of them think the speech is fine except for the, cough, unfortunate references to Brexit and want to keep channels open to a possible return one day, so will vote for it?

    The rebels seem to be in 2 camps. Those that might return are the majority, maybe 12 to 15, the rest seem to have the fire of zealots and are 'neverweres'. Hammond, Grieve, Greening, perhaps Gauke, Rudd'........
    That doesn't seem like enough to pass, but are any of the TIGs / ex-Labour independents potentially amenable?
    I think the rebel rebels will abstain. Some indies will be amenable, possibly enough. It will be very very tight. Kate Hoey is a possible yes vote, omara and mann will be effective abstentions. Hermon 'might' vote in favour or abstain. Austin, Lewis might abstain but will likely vote against. If the majority of rebels vote yes and a few abstain I think it squeezes through. If hammond and co vote against its going down.......
    I wonder how much solidarity the ex-Cons have. If they can stick together it seems like a decent opportunity for them to say, sure we'll vote for you, but only if you restore the whip. If you don't want our support, you won't get it.
    I expect any vote on Brexit and/or the QS will be precisely that.

    Vote for it and you are reinstated and the official conservative candidate at the GE
    Except Grieve and Hammond and maybe Worzel Gummidge/Letwin
    I expect it to apply to them all to be honest. If they vote for brexit and the QS they should be the candidate at the next election

    Hard thinking for Hammond and Grieve but Letwin is standing down anyway
    I think Hammond and Grieve have burned their bridges. Having said that they wint vote for Brexit anyway so its not I guess
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,297
    edited October 2019

    When even a Scottish Tory thinks you're fcuking up, you're really fcuking up

    https://twitter.com/murdo_fraser/status/1183712603803136000?s=20.

    Some of the replies from the Unionist fraternity are a joy to behold.

    Even I think the sentences handed down by Madrid are draconian and grossly disproportionate. I commented as much this morning.

    Does that make me an honorary Nit?
    I agree.

    The sentences are extraordinary. I would comment that I have voted SNP when I lived in Scotland, but did not and do not support independence
  • Options
    ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    148grss said:
    Guardian doesn’t like Tory Queen’s Speech shocker.
    The Secret Barrister is so Left-wing he makes Jeremy Corbyn look like Jacob Rees-Mogg.
    Quite. It’s just an anti-tory rant. Nothing “expert” about it.
  • Options

    When even a Scottish Tory thinks you're fcuking up, you're really fcuking up

    https://twitter.com/murdo_fraser/status/1183712603803136000?s=20.

    Some of the replies from the Unionist fraternity are a joy to behold.

    Even I think the sentences handed down by Madrid are draconian and grossly disproportionate. I commented as much this morning.

    Does that make me an honorary Nit?
    It's okay, it washes off after a couple of days :)
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Pulpstar said:

    Edit : @Theuniondivvie Madrid does however have a veto on new EU entrants

    The line the SNP take on Scotland being "automatically" an EU state isn't sound. Madrid could potentially push back on it, pour encourager les Catalans.

    Independent Scotland might well end up an independent EU state but it's not guaranteed. It also gives London a tremendous amount of power, no Section 30 => UDI = No EU membership for Scotland for sure.

    Spain has already said they have no issue with Scotland joining the EU as long as independence is achieved constitutionally.
    I look forward to the scottish backstop discussions
  • Options
    148grss148grss Posts: 3,679

    148grss said:
    Guardian doesn’t like Tory Queen’s Speech shocker.
    The Secret Barrister is so Left-wing he makes Jeremy Corbyn look like Jacob Rees-Mogg.
    Have you followed them for any length of time? The stories they share from other lawyers and barristers give a pretty dim light of the current criminal justice system.
  • Options
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    Pulpstar said:

    Edit : @Theuniondivvie Madrid does however have a veto on new EU entrants

    The line the SNP take on Scotland being "automatically" an EU state isn't sound. Madrid could potentially push back on it, pour encourager les Catalans.

    Independent Scotland might well end up an independent EU state but it's not guaranteed. It also gives London a tremendous amount of power, no Section 30 => UDI = No EU membership for Scotland for sure.

    I'm not really aware of anyone saying it would happen automatically, just that it would be easier than if we'd gone indy in 2014. I think the Spanish veto would only really be in play if there was an 'illegal' referendum, hence BJ and chums' desperation to avoid a section 30.
    Jo Swinson rejected it yesterday so all three Westminster leaders reject Section 30 and will do so at the next GE no doubt
  • Options
    TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,708

    Do we actually know for sure that the Queen's Speech will not get a majority? I don't have a feeling for how all the Tory expulsees are feeling, but perhaps some of them think the speech is fine except for the, cough, unfortunate references to Brexit and want to keep channels open to a possible return one day, so will vote for it?

    The rebels seem to be in 2 camps. Those that might return are the majority, maybe 12 to 15, the rest seem to have the fire of zealots and are 'neverweres'. Hammond, Grieve, Greening, perhaps Gauke, Rudd'........
    That doesn't seem like enough to pass, but are any of the TIGs / ex-Labour independents potentially amenable?
    I think the rebel rebels will abstain. Some indies will be amenable, possibly enough. It will be very very tight. Kate Hoey is a possible yes vote, omara and mann will be effective abstentions. Hermon 'might' vote in favour or abstain. Austin, Lewis might abstain but will likely vote against. If the majority of rebels vote yes and a few abstain I think it squeezes through. If hammond and co vote against its going down.......
    I wonder how much solidarity the ex-Cons have. If they can stick together it seems like a decent opportunity for them to say, sure we'll vote for you, but only if you restore the whip. If you don't want our support, you won't get it.
    I expect any vote on Brexit and/or the QS will be precisely that.

    Vote for it and you are reinstated and the official conservative candidate at the GE
    Except Grieve and Hammond and maybe Worzel Gummidge/Letwin
    I expect it to apply to them all to be honest. If they vote for brexit and the QS they should be the candidate at the next election

    Hard thinking for Hammond and Grieve but Letwin is standing down anyway
    I think Hammond and Grieve have burned their bridges. Having said that they wint vote for Brexit anyway so its not I guess
    So has Stewart and Gyimah. Though I don't like saying burnt their bridges. It was Johnson who poured petrol on the bridge and threw the lit match on it in the first place.

    Best I can see, after this mess is sorted, is that (absent a GE) the Cons might be able to convince most to return and crawl back to 303 seats or so. A mere 19 short of a majority. WINNER!
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067

    Pulpstar said:

    Edit : @Theuniondivvie Madrid does however have a veto on new EU entrants

    The line the SNP take on Scotland being "automatically" an EU state isn't sound. Madrid could potentially push back on it, pour encourager les Catalans.

    Independent Scotland might well end up an independent EU state but it's not guaranteed. It also gives London a tremendous amount of power, no Section 30 => UDI = No EU membership for Scotland for sure.

    Spain has already said they have no issue with Scotland joining the EU as long as independence is achieved constitutionally.
    I look forward to the scottish backstop discussions
    There’s no need for one. If England wants to leave the single market and customs union there can be a normal customs border.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150


    Theyve had 3+ years and decided nothing

    maybe a bit of pressure is what they need.

    Nearly all of that time has been taken up by the governing party negotiating with itself rather than by parliament considering proposals, and some of the time the government has been running down the clock deliberately.

    If you think TMay's proposed deal was a good one and MPs should have supported it then fair enough, but don't blame them for what Theresa May and Boris Johnson pissed away 3+ years on.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,927
    148grss said:

    148grss said:
    Guardian doesn’t like Tory Queen’s Speech shocker.
    And a barrister that has a long history of talking about the failings of this government in spending regarding criminal justice is what, just another expert to be ignored? Just because they're writing in the Guardian, doesn't mean one shouldn't look at what they have to say.
    Are they a barrister?
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    Scott_P said:
    Not really headlines.

    It has been the case since the Benn Act but 41% supporting no deal in today's YouGov and more blaming the EU than UK if talks fail he may well be in a better political place than many think
  • Options
    ByronicByronic Posts: 3,578

    When even a Scottish Tory thinks you're fcuking up, you're really fcuking up

    https://twitter.com/murdo_fraser/status/1183712603803136000?s=20.

    Some of the replies from the Unionist fraternity are a joy to behold.

    Even I think the sentences handed down by Madrid are draconian and grossly disproportionate. I commented as much this morning.

    Does that make me an honorary Nit?
    I agree.

    The sentences are extraordinary. I would comment that I have voted SNP when I lived in Scotland, but did not and do not support independence
    The sentences aren't just "extraordinary" they are stupid. The one way to stoke Catalan grievance, and fire up the Catindy debate once again, is to hand down brutal punishments. Amazingly, this is exactly what Madrid has done. They are still Bourbons in Castile: forgetting nothing, but learning nothing.

    There's a painful echo here of the moronic way the British punished the rebels of the 1916 Easter Rising. If they'd been treated reasonably, and cleverly, the fires of Irish nationalism might have gone out. Instead the British executed almost all of them, even the ones who were so badly wounded they had to be tied to a chair, so as to be shot.

    I get the feeling Madrid would like to shoot the Calatan rebels, if only it was permitted. This will not end well.
  • Options
    Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,601
    Britain Elects have clearly seen YouGov tables for polling conducted on 9th-10th October, which is consistent with reports on here of polling around that time.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1183682529502601216/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^embeddedtimeline|twterm^profile:britainelects&ref_url=http://britainelects.com/

    Has anyone here tracked down the full tables? Any ideas as to why the full VI has not been published? TBH I was expecting that we would see the results released as a Sunday Times poll yesterday.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205

    Cyclefree said:

    GIN1138 said:

    LOL! Basically the doors are going to be locked and they're not being let out until something is agreed! :D
    FFS they have talked and talked and talked about this. We have had more bloviating MPs rattling on about their entrenched positions on this than on any other subject in our history.

    The time for talking is over. None of them have anything new to say.
    This is a silly talking point. Their job isn't to talk about *brexit* overall, it's to scrutinize the specific proposal the government is proposing. This is important because governments will often fail to take account of important issues, and will sometimes deliberately conceal problems in a way that's hard to reveal without detailed questioning. A lot of this work happens in committees not the floor of the House, which in high-profile debates does indeed tend to attract a lot of repetitive bloviating.

    They haven't yet spent a single day talking about what the government is proposing, because nobody knows WTF the government is proposing. It's ridiculous to say that the government needs three and a half years to work out an acceptable proposal, but then they can't even spare a few weeks for parliament to ask them what it'll mean in practice.
    Well said. If - a big if - there is a deal, it will affect the lives of everyone for years to come. The very least we have the right to expect is that it be properly scrutinised notrushed through after a 5 hour debate.
    Theyve had 3+ years and decided nothing

    maybe a bit of pressure is what they need.
    I am too tired to argue but that must rank as one of the stupidest ways of deciding something so important.

    You don’t even know what the fucking deal is let alone its implications. It would probably take 5 hours to read let alone understand the legal text and any Bill implementing it. But hey let’s vote on it on the basis of total ignorance and screw those who are affected by it.

    Jesus wept.
This discussion has been closed.