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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Prof John Curtice does not make a prediction – Summing up wher

SystemSystem Posts: 11,016
edited November 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Prof John Curtice does not make a prediction – Summing up where we are

Prof John Curtice “The SNP are likely to take seats in Scotland, the @LibDems will take seats but the @Conservatives are 10pts ahead. If these polls are played out as they stand, they will get a majority. This however is not a prediction”. #PSABriefing pic.twitter.com/dSSkJ3pUY8

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Comments

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    First
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    edited November 2019
    Not 1st
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561
    It's so much easier to predict the past and the present than the future.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718
    edited November 2019
    Regarding Tusk`s comments (previous thread) . I think his analysis is spot on, and nicely encapsulates the reasons why I (after much agonising) voted Remain.

    His Arendt comment echoes my view - expressed many times - that the only way that the Brexit decision can be overturned is if Leavers themselves accept that they got it wrong and want a re-think.

    .
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    Endillion said:

    Donald Tusk making a fool of himself again.

    https://twitter.com/PaulbernalUK/status/1194862348198141952
    Of all the stupid criticisms of Johnson possible, accusing him of not sufficiently quoting obscure historical figures has to be the dumbest. He literally does all the bloody time, and gets routinely criticised for it.
    Exactly. I dislike the man, but that criticism really is either knowingly phoney or truly a sign that people are letting their dislike lead them to ridiculousness.

    Either way its very lame.

    Nothing wrong with Tusks comments particularly as he is standing down. I imagine the upset is the impression he wasnt working to get a deal but to delay so we changed our minds, but if wed wanted we could have left ages ago, it's on our parliamentarians that we didnt.

  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    edited November 2019
    Gonnerrr
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    edited November 2019
    Gone
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    Endillion said:

    Donald Tusk making a fool of himself again.

    https://twitter.com/PaulbernalUK/status/1194862348198141952
    Of all the stupid criticisms of Johnson possible, accusing him of not sufficiently quoting obscure historical figures has to be the dumbest. He literally does all the bloody time, and gets routinely criticised for it.
    Exactly. I dislike the man, but that criticism really is either knowingly phoney or truly a sign that people are letting their dislike lead them to ridiculousness.

    Either way its very lame.

    Nothing wrong with Tusks comments particularly as he is standing down. I imagine the upset is the impression he wasnt working to get a deal but to delay so we changed our minds, but if wed wanted we could have left ages ago, it's on our parliamentarians that we didnt.

    Until Boris replaced May we could have only left without a deal, or with a despicably terrible deal. The EU did not negotiate with May in good faith.
  • Options

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Bollocks. The way to prevent a no deal Brexit is for Johnson not to get a majority.

    LAB has lost between a quarter and a third of its GE2017 vote because it has stuck with an unelectable leader,
  • Options
    alb1onalb1on Posts: 698
    kle4 said:

    Endillion said:

    Donald Tusk making a fool of himself again.

    https://twitter.com/PaulbernalUK/status/1194862348198141952
    Of all the stupid criticisms of Johnson possible, accusing him of not sufficiently quoting obscure historical figures has to be the dumbest. He literally does all the bloody time, and gets routinely criticised for it.
    Exactly. I dislike the man, but that criticism really is either knowingly phoney or truly a sign that people are letting their dislike lead them to ridiculousness.

    Either way its very lame.

    Nothing wrong with Tusks comments particularly as he is standing down. I imagine the upset is the impression he wasnt working to get a deal but to delay so we changed our minds, but if wed wanted we could have left ages ago, it's on our parliamentarians that we didnt.

    It is truly bizarre that we have a PM who appears to base his public image on a cartoon version of Benny Hill turned classics scholar.
  • Options

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Bollocks. The way to prevent a no deal Brexit is for Johnson not to get a majority.

    LAB has lost between a quarter and a third of its GE2017 vote because it has stuck with an unelectable leader,
    Or you could both accept democracy and accept that we voted to Leave.

    Controversial suggestion I'm sure, what am I thinking?
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    alb1onalb1on Posts: 698

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Monumentally stupid to base your vote on a straight Lab/Con choice. Your approach would gift Guildford to the Conservatives.
  • Options
    ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,819
    Lib Dems seem to be heading for an existential crisis in the middle of this campaign. Conflicting messages from various MPs, Candidates and Swinson herself.

    What is the number one priority for them?
    Stop Brexit
    Stop Johnson
    Stop Corbyn

    Unless they win a majority they can't realistically do all 3.

    Their entire messaging and the bulk of the new voters has been linked mostly to Stop Brexit. Yet Swinson is now saying she would prefer a second election to putting Corbyn in. Of course most of her target voters are ex tories but I simply struggle to see what alternative she realistically has to allowing Corbyn in, in some way. If she forces a second election when she had the chance to get ref2, she will lose all her stop brexit voters. It would be madness to force a second election if there is a hung parliament, utter madness. She will not win a majority in that second election so how can it possibly improve her position. I fear she has overdone her anti Labour pitch to the point she no longer can back down.
  • Options

    kle4 said:

    Endillion said:

    Donald Tusk making a fool of himself again.

    https://twitter.com/PaulbernalUK/status/1194862348198141952
    Of all the stupid criticisms of Johnson possible, accusing him of not sufficiently quoting obscure historical figures has to be the dumbest. He literally does all the bloody time, and gets routinely criticised for it.
    Exactly. I dislike the man, but that criticism really is either knowingly phoney or truly a sign that people are letting their dislike lead them to ridiculousness.

    Either way its very lame.

    Nothing wrong with Tusks comments particularly as he is standing down. I imagine the upset is the impression he wasnt working to get a deal but to delay so we changed our minds, but if wed wanted we could have left ages ago, it's on our parliamentarians that we didnt.

    Until Boris replaced May we could have only left without a deal, or with a despicably terrible deal. The EU did not negotiate with May in good faith.
    That they negotiated at all was a miracle. When I tore up my RAC Membership Card they didn't offer me a thing.
  • Options
    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,814

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    The Lib Dems are, apparently, actively preventing it from happening, by voting for it 17 times in the House of Commons.

    Labour will ensure it, by refusing to vote for it all those times. But now they're the reliable ones on it.

    Um.... okay....
  • Options
    If Farage sticks with his promise to stand candidates in Labour held marginals then I think the 62% is a bit high. I would put it at more like 50/50 at best.
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Re the discussions on the iht/lifetime gift tax. Once we start getting into discussion of the mechanics we forget the simple 'dementia tax' aspect of it. Labour are coming for your childhood home once mum and dad pass away. That's how it will be framed, and that's how it will be despised.
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    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718
    Mike Smithson: what`s the latest in Bedford consitituency? Are you betting?
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    DavidL said:

    Tories drifting in Brecon & Radnorshire:

    Con 4/5
    LD 11/10
    Bxp 50/1
    Lab 50/1

    Presumably these movements in individual constituencies are being driven in large part by money being bet. Whilst the national trends can be analysed and even regional trends in the case of Yougov no one has actual hard information about individual constituencies. Even if they did after Ashcroft's attempts the last time who would take it seriously?
    - “... no one has actual hard information about individual constituencies.”
    -
    No-one? Huh? Are you sure about that?

    Yes, many punters are daft and take blind punts, or, much worse, bet with their hearts not their heads. But no-one? No way! *Some* folk out there know exactly how it is going on the ground in their local patch. And some of them will place money based on their uncommon knowledge.

    If nobody knew anything then political markets would just be simple lotteries. They are not.
  • Options

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Bollocks. The way to prevent a no deal Brexit is for Johnson not to get a majority.

    LAB has lost between a quarter and a third of its GE2017 vote because it has stuck with an unelectable leader,
    Or you could both accept democracy and accept that we voted to Leave.

    Controversial suggestion I'm sure, what am I thinking?
    May we be pedantically correct on this please - accept *direct* democracy.

    Parliamentary democracy is a different gether altothing.
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    alb1on said:

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Monumentally stupid to base your vote on a straight Lab/Con choice. Your approach would gift Guildford to the Conservatives.
    The choice is a Labour PM or a Conservative PM. Nobody is gifting anyone anything voting with that knowledge. The reason there was a Tory MP in Guildford previously is not because of somebodies "gift" but because over 30k Guildford voters voted for a Tory MP. Do those voters want Corbyn as Prime Minister or Johnson?
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    The Lib Dems are, apparently, actively preventing it from happening, by voting for it 17 times in the House of Commons.

    Labour will ensure it, by refusing to vote for it all those times. But now they're the reliable ones on it.

    Um.... okay....
    Lab.voted for it stop lying
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,532
    Endillion said:

    Donald Tusk making a fool of himself again.

    https://twitter.com/PaulbernalUK/status/1194862348198141952
    Of all the stupid criticisms of Johnson possible, accusing him of not sufficiently quoting obscure historical figures has to be the dumbest. He literally does all the bloody time, and gets routinely criticised for it.
    Surely the criticism is that his literary or historical references tend to be meretricious attention seeking, rather than in any way illuminative ?
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    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718
    edited November 2019
    Philip_Thompson said: "Or you could both accept democracy and accept that we voted to Leave.

    Controversial suggestion I'm sure, what am I thinking?"

    You, like others, adhere to the belief that leaving the EU is justified by dint of the majority wanting it. Direct democracy trumps rep democracy. I wonder whether you will entertain the notion that less than 50% now want to leave, thus defeating your argument?
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    kle4 said:

    Endillion said:

    Donald Tusk making a fool of himself again.

    https://twitter.com/PaulbernalUK/status/1194862348198141952
    Of all the stupid criticisms of Johnson possible, accusing him of not sufficiently quoting obscure historical figures has to be the dumbest. He literally does all the bloody time, and gets routinely criticised for it.
    Exactly. I dislike the man, but that criticism really is either knowingly phoney or truly a sign that people are letting their dislike lead them to ridiculousness.

    Either way its very lame.

    Nothing wrong with Tusks comments particularly as he is standing down. I imagine the upset is the impression he wasnt working to get a deal but to delay so we changed our minds, but if wed wanted we could have left ages ago, it's on our parliamentarians that we didnt.

    Until Boris replaced May we could have only left without a deal, or with a despicably terrible deal. The EU did not negotiate with May in good faith.
    The EU gave a lot in negotiations with May. Your problem is that she wasn't asking for what you wanted because she had different priorities (such as preserving the Union and her deal with the DUP).

    Perhaps if Parliament had been able to provide her with a negotiating mandate we would have had those arguments in 2017, rather than not having them at all except between Johnson and the ERG this autumn.
  • Options

    alb1on said:

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Monumentally stupid to base your vote on a straight Lab/Con choice. Your approach would gift Guildford to the Conservatives.
    The choice is a Labour PM or a Conservative PM. Nobody is gifting anyone anything voting with that knowledge. The reason there was a Tory MP in Guildford previously is not because of somebodies "gift" but because over 30k Guildford voters voted for a Tory MP. Do those voters want Corbyn as Prime Minister or Johnson?
    Neither, if they have any sense. But they're stuck with FPTP. Wtf they supposed to do, riot?

    It's Guildford for heaven's sake. They'll just quietly vote LD and hope for the best.
  • Options
    ozymandiasozymandias Posts: 1,503

    kle4 said:

    Endillion said:

    Donald Tusk making a fool of himself again.

    https://twitter.com/PaulbernalUK/status/1194862348198141952
    Of all the stupid criticisms of Johnson possible, accusing him of not sufficiently quoting obscure historical figures has to be the dumbest. He literally does all the bloody time, and gets routinely criticised for it.
    Exactly. I dislike the man, but that criticism really is either knowingly phoney or truly a sign that people are letting their dislike lead them to ridiculousness.

    Either way its very lame.

    Nothing wrong with Tusks comments particularly as he is standing down. I imagine the upset is the impression he wasnt working to get a deal but to delay so we changed our minds, but if wed wanted we could have left ages ago, it's on our parliamentarians that we didnt.

    Until Boris replaced May we could have only left without a deal, or with a despicably terrible deal. The EU did not negotiate with May in good faith.
    That they negotiated at all was a miracle. When I tore up my RAC Membership Card they didn't offer me a thing.
    If you had provided 7% of the RAC's income they would have tried to keep you.
  • Options

    kle4 said:

    Endillion said:

    Donald Tusk making a fool of himself again.

    https://twitter.com/PaulbernalUK/status/1194862348198141952
    Of all the stupid criticisms of Johnson possible, accusing him of not sufficiently quoting obscure historical figures has to be the dumbest. He literally does all the bloody time, and gets routinely criticised for it.
    Exactly. I dislike the man, but that criticism really is either knowingly phoney or truly a sign that people are letting their dislike lead them to ridiculousness.

    Either way its very lame.

    Nothing wrong with Tusks comments particularly as he is standing down. I imagine the upset is the impression he wasnt working to get a deal but to delay so we changed our minds, but if wed wanted we could have left ages ago, it's on our parliamentarians that we didnt.

    Until Boris replaced May we could have only left without a deal, or with a despicably terrible deal. The EU did not negotiate with May in good faith.
    That they negotiated at all was a miracle. When I tore up my RAC Membership Card they didn't offer me a thing.
    If you had provided 7% of the RAC's income they would have tried to keep you.
    It feels like I did.
  • Options
    Fishing said:

    It's so much easier to predict the past and the present than the future.

    Profound
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    edited November 2019

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Bollocks. The way to prevent a no deal Brexit is for Johnson not to get a majority.

    LAB has lost between a quarter and a third of its GE2017 vote because it has stuck with an unelectable leader,
    The one who increased the Lab. vote share by the most since WW2

    What is it about Bollocks with you LDs

    Tory Swinson has lost between a quarter and a third of its vote share in the last 3 weeks because she is a hypocrite and a lightweight.
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    Stocky said:

    Mike Smithson: what`s the latest in Bedford consitituency? Are you betting?

    1. LDs Winning Here

    2. Is the Pope Catholic?
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    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718
    dyedwoolie said: "Re the discussions on the iht/lifetime gift tax. Once we start getting into discussion of the mechanics we forget the simple 'dementia tax' aspect of it. Labour are coming for your childhood home once mum and dad pass away. That's how it will be framed, and that's how it will be despised."

    Yes - and, to be fair, a Labour attack on entrenched wealth is perfectly consistent with collectivist ideology. As a liberal I don`t agree with them but I respect their position.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited November 2019
    SNP the only party retaining both their Remain voters and their Leave voters. Surely due to SNP voters being far more motivated by Scottish independence than by attitudes to the EU.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,993
    Stocky said:

    Regarding Tusk`s comments (previous thread) . I think his analysis is spot on, and nicely encapsulates the reasons why I (after much agonising) voted Remain.

    His Arendt comment echoes my view - expressed many times - that the only way that the Brexit decision can be overturned is if Leavers themselves accept that they got it wrong and want a re-think.

    .

    "Morality is the choices you make so that you can be friends with yourself," as Arendt also said. Boris is transparently somebody who is not friends with himself.
  • Options

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Mendacious piffle.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,078

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Bollocks. The way to prevent a no deal Brexit is for Johnson not to get a majority.

    LAB has lost between a quarter and a third of its GE2017 vote because it has stuck with an unelectable leader,
    The one who increased the Lab. vote share by the most since WW2

    What is it about Bollocks with you LDs

    Tory Swinson has lost between a quarter and a third of its vote share in the last 3 weeks!
    Everyone knows Corbyn is useless. He’s the most unpopular LOTO in history.

    And yet the Labour brand hangs on.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,532

    alb1on said:

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Monumentally stupid to base your vote on a straight Lab/Con choice. Your approach would gift Guildford to the Conservatives.
    The choice is a Labour PM or a Conservative PM. Nobody is gifting anyone anything voting with that knowledge. The reason there was a Tory MP in Guildford previously is not because of somebodies "gift" but because over 30k Guildford voters voted for a Tory MP. Do those voters want Corbyn as Prime Minister or Johnson?
    Neither, if they have any sense. But they're stuck with FPTP. Wtf they supposed to do, riot?

    It's Guildford for heaven's sake. They'll just quietly vote LD and hope for the best.
    Curious coincidence that those who insist that FPTP is the best system also insist there's no possible choice other than Corbyn/Johnson.

    The twin representatives of entrenched privilege.
  • Options

    Lib Dems seem to be heading for an existential crisis in the middle of this campaign. Conflicting messages from various MPs, Candidates and Swinson herself.

    What is the number one priority for them?
    Stop Brexit
    Stop Johnson
    Stop Corbyn

    Unless they win a majority they can't realistically do all 3.

    Their entire messaging and the bulk of the new voters has been linked mostly to Stop Brexit. Yet Swinson is now saying she would prefer a second election to putting Corbyn in. Of course most of her target voters are ex tories but I simply struggle to see what alternative she realistically has to allowing Corbyn in, in some way. If she forces a second election when she had the chance to get ref2, she will lose all her stop brexit voters. It would be madness to force a second election if there is a hung parliament, utter madness. She will not win a majority in that second election so how can it possibly improve her position. I fear she has overdone her anti Labour pitch to the point she no longer can back down.

    On the other hand what you are ultimately saying here.

    On the basis the Tories aren't going away, you're effectively saying there should only be two parties. Tories and 'Not Tories' (i.e labour).

    If the Lib Dems accept that then they should just disband tomorrow, if stopping Brexit is the only thing which matters.

    This is why tactical voting (apart from very special circumstances, and on a 'nod and wink' level) is extremely limited and dangerous.

    The lib Dem position should be clear. Maximum influence and maxmium votes for the lib dems. Vote for us, because we're the best choice.
  • Options

    Re the discussions on the iht/lifetime gift tax. Once we start getting into discussion of the mechanics we forget the simple 'dementia tax' aspect of it. Labour are coming for your childhood home once mum and dad pass away. That's how it will be framed, and that's how it will be despised.

    Unless they couple the change with an increase in the allowance rather than a decrease. Then they can genuinely claim to be going after the large estates that currently dodge IHT and save everyone's childhood home while still collecting more tax revenue.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,532
    Dura_Ace said:

    Stocky said:

    Regarding Tusk`s comments (previous thread) . I think his analysis is spot on, and nicely encapsulates the reasons why I (after much agonising) voted Remain.

    His Arendt comment echoes my view - expressed many times - that the only way that the Brexit decision can be overturned is if Leavers themselves accept that they got it wrong and want a re-think.

    .

    "Morality is the choices you make so that you can be friends with yourself," as Arendt also said. Boris is transparently somebody who is not friends with himself.
    Though he is his own biggest fan.

    (With the possible exception of HYUFD.)
  • Options

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Bollocks. The way to prevent a no deal Brexit is for Johnson not to get a majority.

    LAB has lost between a quarter and a third of its GE2017 vote because it has stuck with an unelectable leader,
    The one who increased the Lab. vote share by the most since WW2

    What is it about Bollocks with you LDs

    Tory Swinson has lost between a quarter and a third of its vote share in the last 3 weeks!
    Plaid Swinson seems a fairer description to me.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    DavidL said:

    Tories drifting in Brecon & Radnorshire:

    Con 4/5
    LD 11/10
    Bxp 50/1
    Lab 50/1

    Presumably these movements in individual constituencies are being driven in large part by money being bet. Whilst the national trends can be analysed and even regional trends in the case of Yougov no one has actual hard information about individual constituencies. Even if they did after Ashcroft's attempts the last time who would take it seriously?
    - “... no one has actual hard information about individual constituencies.”
    -
    No-one? Huh? Are you sure about that?

    Yes, many punters are daft and take blind punts, or, much worse, bet with their hearts not their heads. But no-one? No way! *Some* folk out there know exactly how it is going on the ground in their local patch. And some of them will place money based on their uncommon knowledge.

    If nobody knew anything then political markets would just be simple lotteries. They are not.
    I made a lovely bet on Illford North in 2015 due to getting info from a Labour bod on the ground. Everyone was predicting an easy hold for Con but my Lab bod said it was 50/50 leaning Labour.

    A value bet was made.
  • Options
    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Re the discussions on the iht/lifetime gift tax. Once we start getting into discussion of the mechanics we forget the simple 'dementia tax' aspect of it. Labour are coming for your childhood home once mum and dad pass away. That's how it will be framed, and that's how it will be despised.

    Unless they couple the change with an increase in the allowance rather than a decrease. Then they can genuinely claim to be going after the large estates that currently dodge IHT and save everyone's childhood home while still collecting more tax revenue.
    Oh quite, an increase in the allowance and they are sitting pretty. It wont be though ;)
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718
    bigjohnowls said: "The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side"


    GE is not all about one issue. That`s why it should have been a confirmatory referendum rather than a GE.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    SNP the only party retaining both their Remain voters and their Leave voters. Surely due to SNP voters being far more motivated by Scottish independence than by attitudes to the EU.
    Mostly because the SNP lost the Leave voters it was going to lose in 2017.

    The unambiguous Pro-EU stance the SNP took lost it votes in 2017. But tat makes it resilient to losing further votes now.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    Stocky said:

    bigjohnowls said: "The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side"


    GE is not all about one issue. That`s why it should have been a confirmatory referendum rather than a GE.

    Agreed
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,816

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Bollocks. The way to prevent a no deal Brexit is for Johnson not to get a majority.

    LAB has lost between a quarter and a third of its GE2017 vote because it has stuck with an unelectable leader,
    The one who increased the Lab. vote share by the most since WW2

    What is it about Bollocks with you LDs

    Tory Swinson has lost between a quarter and a third of its vote share in the last 3 weeks because she is a hypocrite and a lightweight.
    What is there about Corbyn that a Lib Dem voter should find appealing?
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    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,889
    It is what Nate Silver calls a "nowcast"
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    Lib Dems seem to be heading for an existential crisis in the middle of this campaign. Conflicting messages from various MPs, Candidates and Swinson herself.

    What is the number one priority for them?
    Stop Brexit
    Stop Johnson
    Stop Corbyn

    Unless they win a majority they can't realistically do all 3.

    Their entire messaging and the bulk of the new voters has been linked mostly to Stop Brexit. Yet Swinson is now saying she would prefer a second election to putting Corbyn in. Of course most of her target voters are ex tories but I simply struggle to see what alternative she realistically has to allowing Corbyn in, in some way. If she forces a second election when she had the chance to get ref2, she will lose all her stop brexit voters. It would be madness to force a second election if there is a hung parliament, utter madness. She will not win a majority in that second election so how can it possibly improve her position. I fear she has overdone her anti Labour pitch to the point she no longer can back down.

    I understand exactly why she is conflicted and in the midst of an existential crisis. She is too parochial. Her mind has been formed by the very specific local conditions in her seat, East Dunbartonshire, and she lacks the capacity to make the mental leap to a coherent national strategy.

    In East Dunbartonshire, she is entirely dependent upon local Tories voting SLD purely tactically. Her initial “Bollocks To Brexit” stance was catastrophic for her personal interests. She was pissing off exactly the people she needed to cling on to her seat.

    If the Tories want to have fun, and boy would it be funny, they ought to pour resources into East Dunbartonshire and fight Swinson tooth and nail on the Brexit issue. OK, they won’t cos they don’t want a stunning SNP gain, but boy, it would be the Portillo-moment of the night. Times two.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Bollocks. The way to prevent a no deal Brexit is for Johnson not to get a majority.

    LAB has lost between a quarter and a third of its GE2017 vote because it has stuck with an unelectable leader,
    The one who increased the Lab. vote share by the most since WW2

    What is it about Bollocks with you LDs

    Tory Swinson has lost between a quarter and a third of its vote share in the last 3 weeks!
    Everyone knows Corbyn is useless. He’s the most unpopular LOTO in history.

    And yet the Labour brand hangs on.
    Everyone knows Swinson is useless and will hand Johnson a hard Brexit by standing in Lab/ Con marginals like Canterbury, High Peak even though local LDs think they shouldnt
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    dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Ave it will be pleased, Victoria Pendleton is on the Currys Christmas Ad. I remember he had something of a fondness for her
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    Sean_F said:

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Bollocks. The way to prevent a no deal Brexit is for Johnson not to get a majority.

    LAB has lost between a quarter and a third of its GE2017 vote because it has stuck with an unelectable leader,
    The one who increased the Lab. vote share by the most since WW2

    What is it about Bollocks with you LDs

    Tory Swinson has lost between a quarter and a third of its vote share in the last 3 weeks because she is a hypocrite and a lightweight.
    What is there about Corbyn that a Lib Dem voter should find appealing?
    His 2nd Referendum promise.

    Thanks for asking.
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    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Bollocks. The way to prevent a no deal Brexit is for Johnson not to get a majority.

    LAB has lost between a quarter and a third of its GE2017 vote because it has stuck with an unelectable leader,
    The one who increased the Lab. vote share by the most since WW2

    What is it about Bollocks with you LDs

    Tory Swinson has lost between a quarter and a third of its vote share in the last 3 weeks!
    Everyone knows Corbyn is useless. He’s the most unpopular LOTO in history.

    And yet the Labour brand hangs on.
    Everyone knows Swinson is useless and will hand Johnson a hard Brexit by standing in Lab/ Con marginals like Canterbury, High Peak even though local LDs think they shouldnt
    You're either a national political party or you aren't. If you are, you stand and represent the people which want to vote for you.
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    At the start of the campaign, Curtice was signalling the size of the number of mp's not Labour or Conservative implying the likelihood of a hung Parliament. Sounds like a change of tack from The Master
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    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,814
    Stocky said:

    Philip_Thompson said: "Or you could both accept democracy and accept that we voted to Leave.

    Controversial suggestion I'm sure, what am I thinking?"

    You, like others, adhere to the belief that leaving the EU is justified by dint of the majority wanting it. Direct democracy trumps rep democracy. I wonder whether you will entertain the notion that less than 50% now want to leave, thus defeating your argument?

    No, no, but if something takes a prolonged period to carry out and you change your mind halfway through, you HAVE to go through with it before you can reverse your decision.
    Like when someone gets engaged and changes their mind: they have to complete getting married and then they can divorce, otherwise its somehow undemocratic. Or if you decide to quit your job but change your mind - you have to leave and reapply.

    You know. Common sense.
    (Is that right? Ed.)
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    That suggests that Swinson hasn't made enough of the Revoke policy. It's the only way to rapidly bring this to an end - at least in terms of government/parliament time if not in wider politics. Effective campaigning for the Tories to have sold their lie though.
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    StockyStocky Posts: 9,718
    dyedwoolie said: "Ave it will be pleased, Victoria Pendleton is on the Currys Christmas Ad. I remember he had something of a fondness for her"

    She`s a bit fit for my liking - I reckon she`d do me in a fight - I prefer my women to be a bit more vulnerable.
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    kle4 said:

    Endillion said:

    Donald Tusk making a fool of himself again.

    https://twitter.com/PaulbernalUK/status/1194862348198141952
    Of all the stupid criticisms of Johnson possible, accusing him of not sufficiently quoting obscure historical figures has to be the dumbest. He literally does all the bloody time, and gets routinely criticised for it.
    Exactly. I dislike the man, but that criticism really is either knowingly phoney or truly a sign that people are letting their dislike lead them to ridiculousness.

    Either way its very lame.

    Nothing wrong with Tusks comments particularly as he is standing down. I imagine the upset is the impression he wasnt working to get a deal but to delay so we changed our minds, but if wed wanted we could have left ages ago, it's on our parliamentarians that we didnt.

    Until Boris replaced May we could have only left without a deal, or with a despicably terrible deal. The EU did not negotiate with May in good faith.
    That they negotiated at all was a miracle. When I tore up my RAC Membership Card they didn't offer me a thing.
    When we leave we will be one of the EU's most important trading partners, on some measures we will be their number one export partner.

    Is that the case with you and the RAC? Are you their number one trading partner? Oh and every year when I tell Sky I am leaving they are more than happy to offer me plenty.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,416

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Many Remainers - I would say most, but am prepared to be persuaded otherwise - are Remainers primarily because they view Remain as the low-risk option with regard to the economy. Persuading people keen on low-risk economic decision-making to pur Jeremy Corbyn in 10 Downing Street - with or without the help of the SNP - might be challenging.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Bollocks. The way to prevent a no deal Brexit is for Johnson not to get a majority.

    LAB has lost between a quarter and a third of its GE2017 vote because it has stuck with an unelectable leader,
    The one who increased the Lab. vote share by the most since WW2

    What is it about Bollocks with you LDs

    Tory Swinson has lost between a quarter and a third of its vote share in the last 3 weeks!
    Everyone knows Corbyn is useless. He’s the most unpopular LOTO in history.

    And yet the Labour brand hangs on.
    Everyone knows Swinson is useless and will hand Johnson a hard Brexit by standing in Lab/ Con marginals like Canterbury, High Peak even though local LDs think they shouldnt
    You're either a national political party or you aren't. If you are, you stand and represent the people which want to vote for you.
    Apart from in 60 seats where you agree with PC and Greens who stands aside.
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    alb1onalb1on Posts: 698

    alb1on said:

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Monumentally stupid to base your vote on a straight Lab/Con choice. Your approach would gift Guildford to the Conservatives.
    The choice is a Labour PM or a Conservative PM. Nobody is gifting anyone anything voting with that knowledge. The reason there was a Tory MP in Guildford previously is not because of somebodies "gift" but because over 30k Guildford voters voted for a Tory MP. Do those voters want Corbyn as Prime Minister or Johnson?
    The response was to a Labour voter whose only chance of a Labour PM (Corbyn or otherwise) is to deprive the Conservatives of seats like Guildford (and Wimbledon, Eastleigh etc etc). Therefore it is irrational for someone wanting to see a Labour PM to vote Labour in such seats.
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    Re the discussions on the iht/lifetime gift tax. Once we start getting into discussion of the mechanics we forget the simple 'dementia tax' aspect of it. Labour are coming for your childhood home once mum and dad pass away. That's how it will be framed, and that's how it will be despised.

    Unless they couple the change with an increase in the allowance rather than a decrease. Then they can genuinely claim to be going after the large estates that currently dodge IHT and save everyone's childhood home while still collecting more tax revenue.
    Oh quite, an increase in the allowance and they are sitting pretty. It wont be though ;)
    Part of the Corbynist mindset seems to be that if it isn't pissing off Tory voters who would have been tempted to vote for Blair then it's a sellout. They're locked in some insane internal bidding war.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,658
    Average Tory lead (last 6 polls) 28 days ahead of GE19 = 10.3%
    Average Tory lead 28 days ahead of GE17 = 17%
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,816
    edited November 2019

    Sean_F said:

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Bollocks. The way to prevent a no deal Brexit is for Johnson not to get a majority.

    LAB has lost between a quarter and a third of its GE2017 vote because it has stuck with an unelectable leader,
    The one who increased the Lab. vote share by the most since WW2

    What is it about Bollocks with you LDs

    Tory Swinson has lost between a quarter and a third of its vote share in the last 3 weeks because she is a hypocrite and a lightweight.
    What is there about Corbyn that a Lib Dem voter should find appealing?
    His 2nd Referendum promise.

    Thanks for asking.
    I expect that they want rather more than that, to outweigh the negatives.
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    Morning all and interesting to note that on John Curtice's numbers, part of the Tory remain fall has been replaced by an increase in Leave voters. I still think the final result will be something like Tory 40 Labour 25 Liberal 15 Brexit 5 and Green 5. In Scotland I expect the SNP to win 40 seats a net increase of 5.
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,807

    Lib Dems seem to be heading for an existential crisis in the middle of this campaign. Conflicting messages from various MPs, Candidates and Swinson herself.

    What is the number one priority for them?
    Stop Brexit
    Stop Johnson
    Stop Corbyn

    Unless they win a majority they can't realistically do all 3.

    Their entire messaging and the bulk of the new voters has been linked mostly to Stop Brexit. Yet Swinson is now saying she would prefer a second election to putting Corbyn in. Of course most of her target voters are ex tories but I simply struggle to see what alternative she realistically has to allowing Corbyn in, in some way. If she forces a second election when she had the chance to get ref2, she will lose all her stop brexit voters. It would be madness to force a second election if there is a hung parliament, utter madness. She will not win a majority in that second election so how can it possibly improve her position. I fear she has overdone her anti Labour pitch to the point she no longer can back down.

    I understand exactly why she is conflicted and in the midst of an existential crisis. She is too parochial. Her mind has been formed by the very specific local conditions in her seat, East Dunbartonshire, and she lacks the capacity to make the mental leap to a coherent national strategy.

    In East Dunbartonshire, she is entirely dependent upon local Tories voting SLD purely tactically. Her initial “Bollocks To Brexit” stance was catastrophic for her personal interests. She was pissing off exactly the people she needed to cling on to her seat.

    If the Tories want to have fun, and boy would it be funny, they ought to pour resources into East Dunbartonshire and fight Swinson tooth and nail on the Brexit issue. OK, they won’t cos they don’t want a stunning SNP gain, but boy, it would be the Portillo-moment of the night. Times two.
    I see you have gargled well this morning from the tank of Bitrex you keep in your back garden to projectile vomit on any unionist that crosses your path. Must be costing you a fortune with how much Jo Swinson is on the telly.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited November 2019
    Stocky said:

    Philip_Thompson said: "Or you could both accept democracy and accept that we voted to Leave.

    Controversial suggestion I'm sure, what am I thinking?"

    You, like others, adhere to the belief that leaving the EU is justified by dint of the majority wanting it. Direct democracy trumps rep democracy. I wonder whether you will entertain the notion that less than 50% now want to leave, thus defeating your argument?

    No I do not entertain that notion, at the last ballot which measured this an absolute majority voted Leave. Unless or until a new ballot changes that, there is no difference.

    Opinion polls gave Ed Miliband's Labour Party a lead in the polls from late 2010 to early 2015. Should David Cameron have vacated Downing Street and invited Ed Miliband to take his place as Prime Minister on the basis of opinion polls or is it votes that matter?

    image
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    At least by this time tomorrow we will know which candidates are standing where.
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    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1194917892527022080

    Labour...the party of the 'working classes' no longer.
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    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,889

    Those 2017 figures are presumably from the GE. The comparison would be better if the 2017 figures were from opinion polls four to six weeks before the GE as we have for 2019.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,532
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Bollocks. The way to prevent a no deal Brexit is for Johnson not to get a majority.

    LAB has lost between a quarter and a third of its GE2017 vote because it has stuck with an unelectable leader,
    The one who increased the Lab. vote share by the most since WW2

    What is it about Bollocks with you LDs

    Tory Swinson has lost between a quarter and a third of its vote share in the last 3 weeks because she is a hypocrite and a lightweight.
    What is there about Corbyn that a Lib Dem voter should find appealing?
    His 2nd Referendum promise.

    Thanks for asking.
    I expect that they want rather more than that, to outweigh the negatives.
    Not to mention that outside the circle of true believers, trust in Corbyn is not massively higher than that in Johnson.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,658
    edited November 2019
    Stocky said:

    dyedwoolie said: "Ave it will be pleased, Victoria Pendleton is on the Currys Christmas Ad. I remember he had something of a fondness for her"

    She`s a bit fit for my liking - I reckon she`d do me in a fight - I prefer my women to be a bit more vulnerable.

    Hmmm - slightly creepy comment.
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    alb1onalb1on Posts: 698

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Bollocks. The way to prevent a no deal Brexit is for Johnson not to get a majority.

    LAB has lost between a quarter and a third of its GE2017 vote because it has stuck with an unelectable leader,
    The one who increased the Lab. vote share by the most since WW2

    What is it about Bollocks with you LDs

    Tory Swinson has lost between a quarter and a third of its vote share in the last 3 weeks!
    Everyone knows Corbyn is useless. He’s the most unpopular LOTO in history.

    And yet the Labour brand hangs on.
    Everyone knows Swinson is useless and will hand Johnson a hard Brexit by standing in Lab/ Con marginals like Canterbury, High Peak even though local LDs think they shouldnt
    It is Labour that has rejected any trades to stand down in seats. It would make complete sense for Labour to stand down in Guildford in return for the LDs standing down in, say, the Reading seats (to deal locally). But Labour have rejected the wider picture for the purity of the party line - which is why they have no chance.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Morning all and interesting to note that on John Curtice's numbers, part of the Tory remain fall has been replaced by an increase in Leave voters. I still think the final result will be something like Tory 40 Labour 25 Liberal 15 Brexit 5 and Green 5. In Scotland I expect the SNP to win 40 seats a net increase of 5.

    Noone knows how accurate tgd polls are.. the could be miles out.
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    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Stocky said:

    Regarding Tusk`s comments (previous thread) . I think his analysis is spot on, and nicely encapsulates the reasons why I (after much agonising) voted Remain.

    His Arendt comment echoes my view - expressed many times - that the only way that the Brexit decision can be overturned is if Leavers themselves accept that they got it wrong and want a re-think.

    .

    "Morality is the choices you make so that you can be friends with yourself," as Arendt also said. Boris is transparently somebody who is not friends with himself.
    Though he is his own biggest fan.

    (With the possible exception of HYUFD.)
    Possible?! I think even BJ might feel a little queasy at at such relentless puffery.
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    Swinson's problem is that in a hung parliament situation she has to choose between Corbyn and Johnson. If no coalition is formed then Corbyn will put down a VNOC. If the LDs don't back it then Boris would continue with a minority government. If the LDs back it then Johnson would resign and the Queen would send for Corbyn.
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    alb1on said:

    alb1on said:

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Monumentally stupid to base your vote on a straight Lab/Con choice. Your approach would gift Guildford to the Conservatives.
    The choice is a Labour PM or a Conservative PM. Nobody is gifting anyone anything voting with that knowledge. The reason there was a Tory MP in Guildford previously is not because of somebodies "gift" but because over 30k Guildford voters voted for a Tory MP. Do those voters want Corbyn as Prime Minister or Johnson?
    The response was to a Labour voter whose only chance of a Labour PM (Corbyn or otherwise) is to deprive the Conservatives of seats like Guildford (and Wimbledon, Eastleigh etc etc). Therefore it is irrational for someone wanting to see a Labour PM to vote Labour in such seats.
    So what you're suggesting is that if someone in Guildford votes for the Lib Dems they are voting for Prime Minister Corbyn?
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,658

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1194917892527022080

    Labour...the party of the 'working classes' no longer.

    "Class" - almost as hard to define as the mythical Laffer curve :smile:
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    Those numbers may prove to be very decisive.
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    I don't know but presumably an inanimate object didn't take the photo? Couldn't that be the photographer's own seat and the red box has been placed in the seat while the photographer takes the picture?
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,187
    I agree that as, with the "Dementia Tax", Labour's IHT reform, if it appears, will be ruthlessly misrepresented in the campaign and as a consequence perhaps cost votes out there amongst the ignorami. However, let's not do that here. We're better than that.

    Mum dies, leaves house worth £1m to 4 children.

    The net of tax inheritance will be HIGHER under the new system.

    The extra money for each child will not in any way lessen their grief, of course, they will think about Mum every day of their lives until they themselves pass away, but it is certainly not to be sneezed at.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,658

    Stocky said:

    Philip_Thompson said: "Or you could both accept democracy and accept that we voted to Leave.

    Controversial suggestion I'm sure, what am I thinking?"

    You, like others, adhere to the belief that leaving the EU is justified by dint of the majority wanting it. Direct democracy trumps rep democracy. I wonder whether you will entertain the notion that less than 50% now want to leave, thus defeating your argument?

    No I do not entertain that notion, at the last ballot which measured this an absolute majority voted Leave. Unless or until a new ballot changes that, there is no difference.

    Opinion polls gave Ed Miliband's Labour Party a lead in the polls from late 2010 to early 2015. Should David Cameron have vacated Downing Street and invited Ed Miliband to take his place as Prime Minister on the basis of opinion polls or is it votes that matter?

    image
    Yet you won't countenance another ballot.
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    Tim Walker exposing divisions within Liberal party about opposing remoaner candidates in Labour party on SKY News
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    alb1onalb1on Posts: 698

    alb1on said:

    alb1on said:

    #FBPE @LibDems
    The only way to prevent a No Deal Brexit is to kick the Tories OUT. The only way to do this is to elect a LAB government.

    LAB will ensure a People's Vote.
    The Lib Dems are actively preventing this from happening.

    Pick a side. https://t.co/u99v3QvGdu

    Monumentally stupid to base your vote on a straight Lab/Con choice. Your approach would gift Guildford to the Conservatives.
    The choice is a Labour PM or a Conservative PM. Nobody is gifting anyone anything voting with that knowledge. The reason there was a Tory MP in Guildford previously is not because of somebodies "gift" but because over 30k Guildford voters voted for a Tory MP. Do those voters want Corbyn as Prime Minister or Johnson?
    The response was to a Labour voter whose only chance of a Labour PM (Corbyn or otherwise) is to deprive the Conservatives of seats like Guildford (and Wimbledon, Eastleigh etc etc). Therefore it is irrational for someone wanting to see a Labour PM to vote Labour in such seats.
    So what you're suggesting is that if someone in Guildford votes for the Lib Dems they are voting for Prime Minister Corbyn?
    More like they are stopping an unfettered PM Johnson - but at least that is better than Johnson over Corbyn.
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    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Stocky said:

    Regarding Tusk`s comments (previous thread) . I think his analysis is spot on, and nicely encapsulates the reasons why I (after much agonising) voted Remain.

    His Arendt comment echoes my view - expressed many times - that the only way that the Brexit decision can be overturned is if Leavers themselves accept that they got it wrong and want a re-think.

    .

    "Morality is the choices you make so that you can be friends with yourself," as Arendt also said. Boris is transparently somebody who is not friends with himself.
    Though he is his own biggest fan.

    (With the possible exception of HYUFD.)
    Possible?! I think even BJ might feel a little queasy at at such relentless puffery.
    I don’t know, those Nats who think Alex Salmond is being framed by the BritNat establishment are in a league of their own.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited November 2019

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1194917892527022080

    Labour...the party of the 'working classes' no longer.

    The Brexit Party and to a lesser extent the Tories now the true party of the working class on those numbers percentage of vote wise.

    The LDs now the party of the middle class percentage wise even if the Tories lead with middle class voters still
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    Stocky said:

    Philip_Thompson said: "Or you could both accept democracy and accept that we voted to Leave.

    Controversial suggestion I'm sure, what am I thinking?"

    You, like others, adhere to the belief that leaving the EU is justified by dint of the majority wanting it. Direct democracy trumps rep democracy. I wonder whether you will entertain the notion that less than 50% now want to leave, thus defeating your argument?

    No I do not entertain that notion, at the last ballot which measured this an absolute majority voted Leave. Unless or until a new ballot changes that, there is no difference.

    Opinion polls gave Ed Miliband's Labour Party a lead in the polls from late 2010 to early 2015. Should David Cameron have vacated Downing Street and invited Ed Miliband to take his place as Prime Minister on the basis of opinion polls or is it votes that matter?

    image
    Yet you won't countenance another ballot.
    Yes I will. If a majority is elected at an election on a manifesto to hold another referendum then another referendum would have been voted for.

    As far as I know only the Labour Party and SNP have that as their policy - the SNP wanting to rehold two referendums next year as they lost both of them last time.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,915
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,658

    I don't know but presumably an inanimate object didn't take the photo? Couldn't that be the photographer's own seat and the red box has been placed in the seat while the photographer takes the picture?
    The photographer is very short and that's a booster cushion not a red box? :lol:
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited November 2019
    Stocky said:

    dyedwoolie said: "Re the discussions on the iht/lifetime gift tax. Once we start getting into discussion of the mechanics we forget the simple 'dementia tax' aspect of it. Labour are coming for your childhood home once mum and dad pass away. That's how it will be framed, and that's how it will be despised."

    Yes - and, to be fair, a Labour attack on entrenched wealth is perfectly consistent with collectivist ideology. As a liberal I don`t agree with them but I respect their position.

    £125 k is not entrenched wealth of the super rich, it is the net worth of the average swing voter.

    This would be Christmas come early for us Tories if Labour are stupid enough to pursue it
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    alb1onalb1on Posts: 698
    isam said:
    I am not sure anyone takes Burley seriously. Rumour has it that she used to start each day with a vigorous rendition of 'Waltzing with Rupert'.
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    Stuart Dickson talking nonsense about East Dunbartonshire. Jo Swinson won the seat back in 2017 on the basis of SNP to Liberal switchers. The Tory vote in 2017 was 6% higher than it was in 2015. So no Tory to Liberal switchers helped her win!
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    kinabalu said:

    I agree that as, with the "Dementia Tax", Labour's IHT reform, if it appears, will be ruthlessly misrepresented in the campaign and as a consequence perhaps cost votes out there amongst the ignorami. However, let's not do that here. We're better than that.

    Mum dies, leaves house worth £1m to 4 children.

    The net of tax inheritance will be HIGHER under the new system.

    The extra money for each child will not in any way lessen their grief, of course, they will think about Mum every day of their lives until they themselves pass away, but it is certainly not to be sneezed at.

    Is Mum the only person who bequeaths anything under your logic? Because isn't it a lifetime allowance?

    So if Dad, or any of their 4 Grandparents or anyone else bequeaths them anything then it would be different.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,416
    Pro_Rata said:

    Lib Dems seem to be heading for an existential crisis in the middle of this campaign. Conflicting messages from various MPs, Candidates and Swinson herself.

    What is the number one priority for them?
    Stop Brexit
    Stop Johnson
    Stop Corbyn

    Unless they win a majority they can't realistically do all 3.

    Their entire messaging and the bulk of the new voters has been linked mostly to Stop Brexit. Yet Swinson is now saying she would prefer a second election to putting Corbyn in. Of course most of her target voters are ex tories but I simply struggle to see what alternative she realistically has to allowing Corbyn in, in some way. If she forces a second election when she had the chance to get ref2, she will lose all her stop brexit voters. It would be madness to force a second election if there is a hung parliament, utter madness. She will not win a majority in that second election so how can it possibly improve her position. I fear she has overdone her anti Labour pitch to the point she no longer can back down.

    I understand exactly why she is conflicted and in the midst of an existential crisis. She is too parochial. Her mind has been formed by the very specific local conditions in her seat, East Dunbartonshire, and she lacks the capacity to make the mental leap to a coherent national strategy.

    In East Dunbartonshire, she is entirely dependent upon local Tories voting SLD purely tactically. Her initial “Bollocks To Brexit” stance was catastrophic for her personal interests. She was pissing off exactly the people she needed to cling on to her seat.

    If the Tories want to have fun, and boy would it be funny, they ought to pour resources into East Dunbartonshire and fight Swinson tooth and nail on the Brexit issue. OK, they won’t cos they don’t want a stunning SNP gain, but boy, it would be the Portillo-moment of the night. Times two.
    I see you have gargled well this morning from the tank of Bitrex you keep in your back garden to projectile vomit on any unionist that crosses your path. Must be costing you a fortune with how much Jo Swinson is on the telly.
    I think Stuart's pretty perceptive here, actually. We often talk about Jeremy Corbyn being very much in the mindest of someone from Islington North and Finsbury. But the same can be said of Jo Swinson. She goes down very well in middle class suburbia, but possibly at the expense of much of the rest of the country - she maybe hasn't achieved the breadth of appeal that Charlie or Paddy did. Now maybe she's decided that doesn't matter, and targetting the middle class suburbs is her best way to maximise LD seats. She may be right.
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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,119
    Dura_Ace said:

    Stocky said:

    Regarding Tusk`s comments (previous thread) . I think his analysis is spot on, and nicely encapsulates the reasons why I (after much agonising) voted Remain.

    His Arendt comment echoes my view - expressed many times - that the only way that the Brexit decision can be overturned is if Leavers themselves accept that they got it wrong and want a re-think.

    .

    "Morality is the choices you make so that you can be friends with yourself," as Arendt also said. Boris is transparently somebody who is not friends with himself.
    And can not then be true to any man.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited November 2019

    SNP the only party retaining both their Remain voters and their Leave voters. Surely due to SNP voters being far more motivated by Scottish independence than by attitudes to the EU.
    Labour down 6% with Remainers and 8% with Leavers on 2017
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