Your enthusiasms for referendums does you credit. On the EU, we must have a referendum if public opinion changes? If public opinion (based on any opinion poll) switches back and forth as it may well do, that means another referendum each time, surely? Or is only until you get the result you want?
Whether the government is backing these amendments or no, as they'd be incompatible with the Withdrawal Agreement as currently worded, I suspect Mr Speaker will rule this Out of Order as a fairly meaningless self-wrecking amendment.
It'll have the support of Hoey, the DUP and the ERG. Not so much the rest of the house. Still it provides the Gov't with a good idea of the number of ultra-Brexiteers.
Effectively extends the possibility of 'No Deal' at the various cut off points throughout any transition, transition extension and backstop periods.
Weird. I'm confused as to how the government would see that as anything but a wrecking amendment. Maybe they'll try to secure something which they then claim technically meets the wording even if it doesn't obey the spirit
Worked last time they tried it!
I guess at this point since the deal as will fail and a renegotiation is labour policy and popular with the Tories too they might as well accept it. Goodness only knows what they do if they cannot get that change (The EU might like others to think again but they don't like being told it themselves) but I guess good luck to them.
Can anyone answer a puzzle about the now popular Norway or Norway + solution? Let us say that a WA is done in due course on the basis that we remain as if in EU until the end of the transition period, after which we continue in the single market and CU, either as members of EFTA or effectively shadowing its terms. That's all fine, and is my personal preferred solution. BUT how could the EU agree to any of that without repeating the Irish backstop in the WA to cover circumstances in which we might want to leave that arrangement and move on to Canada + or whatever. Doesn't Norway just repeat the problem, which is that the EU does not intend us ever ever ever to be able to decide the Irish border question unilaterally? Which would end us exactly where we are now.
I don't have an answer. Does anyone?
The EU would likely demand permanent Norway plus Customs Union as the price of any new Deal with full free movement ie permanent BINO.
It would be fractionally better for the economy than May's Deal but would infuriate most Leavers and UKIP or a new Farage and Bannon party would be on 20 to 25% of the vote within 6 months
You really are losing touch with reality if you think Farage and Bannon would achieve 20% to 25%
If free movement is left fully in place a populist anti immigration party would soon match totals for far right parties in Europe like FN, the AfD and Lega Nord
No it wouldn't we have had just about the same level of (EU & non-EU) immigration for years and are likely to have the same amount, with different compositions, for years to come. Ain't no one taking to the street about it. They haven't to date, and they aren't about to know. If they really, really hate the foreigners they have UKIP to vote for.
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration
Whether 45-55 or 55-45, the constituency split of Brexit support massively favours Leave. Remainers have made the running since the referendum because Leavers had thought they had won. Brexit supporters need to make clear Labour are trying to sabotage Brexit by economically blackmailing the country into Remaining. They want mass immigration because the British public won't vote for their far left policies without demographic change.
Leavers at some point will start asking themselves why they made no attempt to forge a consensus. But not yet, I fancy.
And we know why many remainers decided instead of trying to honour the result and be part of the process of negotiating our exit from the EU, they spent the time salting the earth and begging the EU to give us a punishment beating.
You are literally channelling Hitler with this stab in the back myth.
Next you'll be blaming international Jewry.
Oh wait some other Leavers got there before with their vile anti Soros stuff.
That escalated quickly and is entirely unwarranted. You've never seen me make either anti semitic remarks or anti soros remarks.
Remain gone back to accusing people of being Hitler. Yawn.
Leavers at some point will start asking themselves why they made no attempt to forge a consensus. But not yet, I fancy.
And we know why many remainers decided instead of trying to honour the result and be part of the process of negotiating our exit from the EU, they spent the time salting the earth and begging the EU to give us a punishment beating.
You are literally channelling Hitler with this stab in the back myth.
Next you'll be blaming international Jewry.
Oh wait some other Leavers got there before with their vile anti Soros stuff.
That escalated quickly and is entirely unwarranted. You've never seen me make either anti semitic remarks or anti soros remarks.
That’s where the stab in the back myth inevitably leads.
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration
You keep threatening us with "splitting the Tory vote" and forgetting that most of us don't consider that much of a threat.
Far from it, the Tories won a majority in 2015 with UKIP on 12% and won a number of seats due to Labour defections to UKIP like Vale of Clwyd they lost in 2017 when UKIP fell.
Merkel won in 2017 despite a high AfD vote as it also took SPD voters.
Your analysis UKIP only takes from Tories is completely wrong and the far right BNP did best in Labour seats like Burnley and Dagenham
"The backstop is even more of a constitutional, politcal and legal outrage than any of us imagined."
I listened to the legal advice yesterday. We already knew it was dependent on the EU playing nicely. The AG and Mrs May think they will, I don't. Nothing has changed at all.
Weird. I'm confused as to how the government would see that as anything but a wrecking amendment. Maybe they'll try to secure something which they then claim technically meets the wording even if it doesn't obey the spirit
Worked last time they tried it!
There's no way Bercow will select this. It's so transparently Out of Order it would make a mockery of the house if he allowed it to come to a vote.
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core support
Great let them vote for it.
Scrapping democracy is NEVER acceptable.
Hence the argument for a second referendum.
But Big G is correct. A no deal scenario would be disastrous for the DUP. Deservedly.
A second referendum before you have enacted the first is not democracy. No matter how much you might keep trying to claim otherwise.
Democracy is government implementing what the people want. If, having seen the reality of the travesty that leavers are trying to thrust upon us, people sensibly and reasonably decide "thanks, but no thanks", that would be a perfect example of democracy in practice.
And when they vote no deal? You’ll be happy then I suppose.
No Deal won't be offered. It would be a choice between Remain, and take a deal we've voted down. Rather like a magician asking you to pick a card, any card.
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core support
Great let them vote for it.
Scrapping democracy is NEVER acceptable.
Hence the argument for a second referendum.
But Big G is correct. A no deal scenario would be disastrous for the DUP. Deservedly.
A second referendum before you have enacted the first is not democracy. No matter how much you might keep trying to claim otherwise.
Democracy is government implementing what the people want. If, having seen the reality of the travesty that leavers are trying to thrust upon us, people sensibly and reasonably decide "thanks, but no thanks", that would be a perfect example of democracy in practice.
We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration
If net European migration continues to trend towards zero it will lose all salience and no-one will be bothered by the principle. It was only in the context of high immigration overall that it became a political football.
Your enthusiasms for referendums does you credit. On the EU, we must have a referendum if public opinion changes? If public opinion (based on any opinion poll) switches back and forth as it may well do, that means another referendum each time, surely? Or is only until you get the result you want?
If we escape from this train of horrors, I very much doubt people will want to go through it all over again. If they do, so be it.
Weird. I'm confused as to how the government would see that as anything but a wrecking amendment. Maybe they'll try to secure something which they then claim technically meets the wording even if it doesn't obey the spirit
Worked last time they tried it!
There's no way Bercow will select this. It's so transparently Out of Order it would make a mockery of the house if he allowed it to come to a vote.
We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.
You popped up on here last month and have done nothing but push lies to sell it, against the grain of almost every strand of political opinion in this country.
We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core support
Great let them vote for it.
Scrapping democracy is NEVER acceptable.
Hence the argument for a second referendum.
But Big G is correct. A no deal scenario would be disastrous for the DUP. Deservedly.
A second referendum before you have enacted the first is not democracy. No matter how much you might keep trying to claim otherwise.
Democracy is government implementing what the people want. If, having seen the reality of the travesty that leavers are trying to thrust upon us, people sensibly and reasonably decide "thanks, but no thanks", that would be a perfect example of democracy in practice.
We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration
If net European migration continues to trend towards zero it will lose all salience and no-one will be bothered by the principle. It was only in the context of high immigration overall that it became a political football.
It won't and North African and Middle Eastern migration to Europe and hence potentially to the UK remains as big an issue as ever
Your enthusiasms for referendums does you credit. On the EU, we must have a referendum if public opinion changes? If public opinion (based on any opinion poll) switches back and forth as it may well do, that means another referendum each time, surely? Or is only until you get the result you want?
If we escape from this train of horrors, I very much doubt people will want to go through it all over again. If they do, so be it.
Most likely, we continue to be increasingly unhappy members of the EU, continually complaining about the direction of travel.
We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.
You popped up on here last month and have done nothing but push lies to sell it, against the grain of almost every strand of political opinion in this country.
He is right, the Deal comfortably beats Remain or No Deal with Deltapoll
Weird. I'm confused as to how the government would see that as anything but a wrecking amendment. Maybe they'll try to secure something which they then claim technically meets the wording even if it doesn't obey the spirit
Worked last time they tried it!
There's no way Bercow will select this. It's so transparently Out of Order it would make a mockery of the house if he allowed it to come to a vote.
He might accept it, so as to cause trouble.
He does like mischief. But I cannot see the House supporting it. But imagine the chaos if it did. Crikey.
Mrs May commanded to go back and renegotiate the backstop away with the EU, having cajoled them all into publicly saying that this deal was final.
Surely not enough humble pie in the universe for that?
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core support
Great let them vote for it.
Scrapping democracy is NEVER acceptable.
Hence the argument for a second referendum.
But Big G is correct. A no deal scenario would be disastrous for the DUP. Deservedly.
A second referendum before you have enacted the first is not democracy. No matter how much you might keep trying to claim otherwise.
Democracy is government implementing what the people want. If, having seen the reality of the travesty that leavers are trying to thrust upon us, people sensibly and reasonably decide "thanks, but no thanks", that would be a perfect example of democracy in practice.
We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.
If the prominent leavers are making speeches praising the deal as a sensible and prudent first step toward the goal of independence from the EU (insofar as that is ever achievable given that it sits just across the Channel) then, with the honourable exception of Mr Gove, I must have missed them?
We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.
You popped up on here last month and have done nothing but push lies to sell it, against the grain of almost every strand of political opinion in this country.
He is right, the Deal comfortably beats Remain or No Deal with Deltapoll
Deltapoll is an outlier. Look at the YouGov poll above - there's been a marked swing against Brexit since the deal was published.
We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.
You popped up on here last month and have done nothing but push lies to sell it, against the grain of almost every strand of political opinion in this country.
He is right, the Deal comfortably beats Remain or No Deal with Deltapoll
Which is another reason the House won't allow it on any referendum paper.
Can anyone answer a puzzle about the now popular Norway or Norway + solution?
I don't have an answer. Does anyone?
The EU would likely demand permanent Norway plus Customs Union as the price of any new Deal with full free movement ie permanent BINO.
It would be fractionally better for the economy than May's Deal but would infuriate most Leavers and UKIP or a new Farage and Bannon party would be on 20 to 25% of the vote within 6 months
You really are losing touch with reality if you think Farage and Bannon would achieve 20% to 25%
If free movement is left fully in place a populist anti immigration party would soon match totals for far right parties in Europe like FN, the AfD and Lega Nord
No it wouldn't we have had just about the same level of (EU & non-EU) immigration for years and are likely to have the same amount, with different compositions, for years to come. Ain't no one taking to the street about it. They haven't to date, and they aren't about to know. If they really, really hate the foreigners they have UKIP to vote for.
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration
Whether 45-55 or 55-45, the constituency split of Brexit support massively favours Leave. Remainers have made the running since the referendum because Leavers had thought they had won. Brexit supporters need to make clear Labour are trying to sabotage Brexit by economically blackmailing the country into Remaining. They want mass immigration because the British public won't vote for their far left policies without demographic change.
What are the latest immigration figures under Mrs May?
29-Nov -2018 "The number of EU citizens moving to the UK has continued to drop, but more people coming from elsewhere means the overall migration rate is unchanged.
Figures show net migration - the difference between how many people came to the UK for at least 12 months and how many left - was 273,000 last year.
EU net migration was 74,000 in the year to the end of June 2018, while non-EU net migration was 248,000.
Four in ten Brits (42%) oppose it, based on what they have seen and heard so far, compared to only 19% who are in favour. A further 39% answered “don’t know”.
After a brief bounce in popularity last week, May's deal has slipped -6 points.
Can anyone answer a puzzle about the now popular Norway or Norway + solution? Let us say that a WA is done in due course on the basis that we remain as if in EU until the end of the transition period, after which we continue in the single market and CU, either as members of EFTA or effectively shadowing its terms. That's all fine, and is my personal preferred solution. BUT how could the EU agree to any of that without repeating the Irish backstop in the WA to cover circumstances in which we might want to leave that arrangement and move on to Canada + or whatever. Doesn't Norway just repeat the problem, which is that the EU does not intend us.
I don't have an answer. Does anyone?
The EU would likely demand permanent Norway plus Customs Union as the price of any new Deal with full free movement ie permanent BINO.
It would be fractionally better for the economy than May's Deal but would infuriate most Leavers and UKIP or a new Farage and Bannon party would be on 20 to 25% of the vote within 6 months
You really are losing touch with reality if you think Farage and Bannon would achieve 20% to 25%
If free movement is left fully in place a populist anti immigration party would soon match totals for far right parties in Europe like FN, the AfD and Lega Nord
No it wouldn't we have had just about the same level of (EU & non-EU) immigration for years and are likely to have the same amount, with different compositions, for years to come. Ain't no one taking to the street about it. They haven't to date, and they aren't about to know. If they really, really hate the foreigners they have UKIP to vote for.
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration
Whether 45-55 or 55-45, the constituency split of Brexit support massively favours Leave. Remainers have made the running since the referendum because Leavers had thought they had won. Brexit supporters need to make clear Labour are trying to sabotage Brexit by economically blackmailing the country into Remaining. They want mass immigration because the British public won't vote for their far left policies without demographic change.
So, if I understand this correctly, you’re saying that mass immigration from countries where populist/right wing votes are generally increasing will push up the vote for left wing policies in Britain?
We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.
You popped up on here last month and have done nothing but push lies to sell it, against the grain of almost every strand of political opinion in this country.
He is right, the Deal comfortably beats Remain or No Deal with Deltapoll
Deltapoll is an outlier. Look at the YouGov poll above - there's been a marked swing against Brexit since the deal was published.
Com Res also put Leave (just) ahead and Survation had Leave back to 49%
Can anyone answer a puzzle about the now popular Norway or Norway + solution?
I don't have an answer. Does anyone?
The EU would likely demand permanent Norway plus Customs Union as the price of any new Deal with full free movement ie permanent BINO.
It would be fractionally better for the economy than May's Deal but would infuriate most Leavers and UKIP or a new Farage and Bannon party would be on 20 to 25% of the vote within 6 months
You really are losing touch with reality if you think Farage and Bannon would achieve 20% to 25%
If free movement is left fully in place a populist anti immigration party would soon match totals for far right parties in Europe like FN, the AfD and Lega Nord
No it wouldn't we have had just about the same level of (EU & non-EU) immigration for years and are likely to have the same amount, with different compositions, for years to come. Ain't no one taking to the street about it. They haven't to date, and they aren't about to know. If they really, really hate the foreigners they have UKIP to vote for.
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration
Whether 45-55 or 55-45, the constituency split of Brexit support massively favours Leave. Remainers have made the running since the referendum because Leavers had thought they had won. Brexit supporters need to make clear Labour are trying to sabotage Brexit by economically blackmailing the country into Remaining. They want mass immigration because the British public won't vote for their far left policies without demographic change.
What are the latest immigration figures under Mrs May?
29-Nov -2018 "The number of EU citizens moving to the UK has continued to drop, but more people coming from elsewhere means the overall migration rate is unchanged.
Figures show net migration - the difference between how many people came to the UK for at least 12 months and how many left - was 273,000 last year.
EU net migration was 74,000 in the year to the end of June 2018, while non-EU net migration was 248,000.
Four in ten Brits (42%) oppose it, based on what they have seen and heard so far, compared to only 19% who are in favour. A further 39% answered “don’t know”.
After a brief bounce in popularity last week, May's deal has slipped -6 points.
The 39% don't know is unsurprising. The complex nature of this is that even those in the bubble do not know
If this goes to a referendum I would expect don't knows to fall heavily to remain as easier to understand and safer
The negotiations couldn’t have been handled any worse by a cackhanded Gov with no idea of what to do next. However,just wait for the backlash if we don’t do Brexit as the economy fails to improve, immigration ramps up again, the EU contributions escalate, and fisheries continue to be dominated by overseas trawlers. Not doing Brexit might well lead to a Corbyn Gov and then the economy will be in huge trouble.
What a bunch of muppets MPs are if “taking back control” is just used to thwart the referendum and continue to allow MPs their cosy lifestyles for simply letting Brussels tell them what to do.
Corbyn asnt exactly prioritised Brexit getting through. Would the backlash not be against him. The Labour Party are at the point where riding two horses is not going to be possible
Corbyn has focussed his agenda on domestic policy whilst the Gov makes a mess of Brexit so my reading is that his support is more solid. The Tories failed on Brexit and they will feel the wrath of the electorate. The fact that Corbyn is as clueless on domestic policy as he is on Brexit doesn’t seem to matter to Labour voters.
I also think there are a large number of Labour voters who gave him the benefit of the doubt last time, and voted labour thinking he was going to get battered in the election.
My understanding is that it was actually the opposite although I can't find the surveys which said so after a quick look.
If you are trying to say that Labour broke 40% despite people not turning out to vote Labour because of Corbyn I would be very surprised. Corbyn did really well to ride the plucky underdog wagon, and avoid significant scrutiny of the fantasy manifesto. I have said this before on this forum. Elections are often a reaction to the previous election. People were surprised when Cameron got a majority and the polling had Theresa May 20 points ahead. The media reported Corbyn had no chance. As a Labour supporter, even if I didn’t like Corbyn and wanted a hard Brexit, would I personally want to vote for May when she was going to win anyway? I think that saw a swing to Labour.
But in the final week of the campaign she was not 20 points ahead - more like 5 points with a Hung Parliament being a serious possibility!
Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.
If the first result is overturned by a second vote then there is nothing undemocratic about it. If we can't change our minds in light of events then we aren't living in much of a democracy in the first place.
Four in ten Brits (42%) oppose it, based on what they have seen and heard so far, compared to only 19% who are in favour. A further 39% answered “don’t know”.
After a brief bounce in popularity last week, May's deal has slipped -6 points.
The 39% don't know is unsurprising. The complex nature of this is that even those in the bubble do not know
If this goes to a referendum I would expect don't knows to fall heavily to remain as easier to understand and safer
Isn't there a law of polling that you always assume the "don't knows" will split the same way as the ones that have made their mind up?
Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.
You can't project from a handful of fanatics to the views of millions.
I'm not. It is not a hard Brexit that people voted for, just a Brexit. Hard or soft, I doubt they are going to take kindly to being told there is no Brexit. Unlike you it seems I actually talk to people who voted Leave and know how they would feel if they were told it was all off. If you want to kill democracy in this country go right ahead. But don't say you weren't warned.
Hopefully they (we) won't be "told", but asked.
Its the same thing. The politicians telling the electorate they got it wrong and have to do it again. We can point to the same thing in plenty of other EU votes where the EU side lost and they told the electorate to do it again. If you think that is a message that will be welcomed by most people who voted Leave then you really are out of touch.
That is certainly the message all of us on the Leave side will be pushing from now on.
Parliament thinks you are too stupid so you have to vote again until you vote the way they want.
We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.
You popped up on here last month and have done nothing but push lies to sell it, against the grain of almost every strand of political opinion in this country.
He must have been taking lessons from you William.
Your enthusiasms for referendums does you credit. On the EU, we must have a referendum if public opinion changes? If public opinion (based on any opinion poll) switches back and forth as it may well do, that means another referendum each time, surely? Or is only until you get the result you want?
If we escape from this train of horrors, I very much doubt people will want to go through it all over again. If they do, so be it.
Most likely, we continue to be increasingly unhappy members of the EU, continually complaining about the direction of travel.
Yep. This is the Remainer delusion. That if we vote to cancel Brexit then everything will not just go back to the way it was but will be 'settled'. It really is amazing how they can kid themselves about this.
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core support
Great let them vote for it.
Scrapping democracy is NEVER acceptable.
Hence the argument for a second referendum.
But Big G is correct. A no deal scenario would be disastrous for the DUP. Deservedly.
A second referendum before you have enacted the first is not democracy. No matter how much you might keep trying to claim otherwise.
Democracy is government implementing what the people want. If, having seen the reality of the travesty that leavers are trying to thrust upon us, people sensibly and reasonably decide "thanks, but no thanks", that would be a perfect example of democracy in practice.
We haven't seen the reality of it because Remainers are voting down the deal before it can be implemented, with a media, free of purdah requirements, cherry picking and pushing lies to smear it.
Yes only Remainers are voting against this deal.
They aren't of course, but were always The only ones who could save it.
Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.
You can't project from a handful of fanatics to the views of millions.
I'm not. It is not a hard Brexit that people voted for, just a Brexit. Hard or soft, I doubt they are going to take kindly to being told there is no Brexit. Unlike you it seems I actually talk to people who voted Leave and know how they would feel if they were told it was all off. If you want to kill democracy in this country go right ahead. But don't say you weren't warned.
Hopefully they (we) won't be "told", but asked.
Its the same thing. The politicians telling the electorate they got it wrong and have to do it again. We can point to the same thing in plenty of other EU votes where the EU side lost and they told the electorate to do it again. If you think that is a message that will be welcomed by most people who voted Leave then you really are out of touch.
That is certainly the message all of us on the Leave side will be pushing from now on.
Parliament thinks you are too stupid so you have to vote again until you vote the way they want.
It's an understandable attitude. What both sides will need, in a future referendum is more clarity. On the Remainer side less Project Fear and on the Leaver side less dishonesty.
Any chance some enterprising film producer will package up this week / next week's Brexit debates into a box set and release on Netflix? Could be a surprise Christmas hit for all of us missing any big updates while feasting on our turkey and stuffing?
Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.
You can't project from a handful of fanatics to the views of millions.
I'm not. It is not a hard Brexit that people voted for, just a Brexit. Hard or soft, I doubt they are going to take kindly to being told there is no Brexit. Unlike you it seems I actually talk to people who voted Leave and know how they would feel if they were told it was all off. If you want to kill democracy in this country go right ahead. But don't say you weren't warned.
Hopefully they (we) won't be "told", but asked.
Its the same thing. The politicians telling the electorate they got it wrong and have to do it again. We can point to the same thing in plenty of other EU votes where the EU side lost and they told the electorate to do it again. If you think that is a message that will be welcomed by most people who voted Leave then you really are out of touch.
That is certainly the message all of us on the Leave side will be pushing from now on.
Parliament thinks you are too stupid so you have to vote again until you vote the way they want.
It’s certainly a sensible line to use to try and whip up outraged support, but ‘Parliament has tried to do what you want, but fears that any real-world way of doing that would only be supported by a minority of the electorate and so wants to check’ is probably more honest.
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration
If net European migration continues to trend towards zero it will lose all salience and no-one will be bothered by the principle. It was only in the context of high immigration overall that it became a political football.
Net European migration has been dropping because people thought we were leaving the EU. If we decide not to it will quickly reverse again.
No Deal won't be offered. It would be a choice between Remain, and take a deal we've voted down. Rather like a magician asking you to pick a card, any card.
Exactly. Plus the deal leaves the future relationship undefined and therefore is unsuitable for a referendum. Ditto No Deal, which has different meanings that can't be pinned down to a referendum suitable specific proposition, and in its extreme form is opposed by virtually the whole HoC. Leaving Remain as the only viable candidate for inclusion on the ballot. Ergo a referendum with just one option and furthermore one which has already been rejected by the public. Utter farce. Not happening.
Leavers at some point will start asking themselves why they made no attempt to forge a consensus. But not yet, I fancy.
And we know why many remainers decided instead of trying to honour the result and be part of the process of negotiating our exit from the EU, they spent the time salting the earth and begging the EU to give us a punishment beating.
Honour the result? Why? It was obvious from day 1 that Leaving was a worse outcome than Remaining. How exactly am I (or other Remainers) supposed to get enthusiastic about that?
If any group has been begging for punishment beatings and salting the Earth it is the more extreme Leavers. As an extreme Remainer I view Brexit as a punishment beating.
And thankfully karma is finally delivering the hard Brexiters their just desserts. So often they seem to be the type who starts talking to you on the bus and makes you unusually eager to catch up on your emails and pray that every traffic light turns green.
I just use my Get-out-of-jail-free card and say "I'm Irish. I'm not bothered" which usually gets me a glare
Your enthusiasms for referendums does you credit. On the EU, we must have a referendum if public opinion changes? If public opinion (based on any opinion poll) switches back and forth as it may well do, that means another referendum each time, surely? Or is only until you get the result you want?
If we escape from this train of horrors, I very much doubt people will want to go through it all over again. If they do, so be it.
Most likely, we continue to be increasingly unhappy members of the EU, continually complaining about the direction of travel.
Yep. This is the Remainer delusion. That if we vote to cancel Brexit then everything will not just go back to the way it was but will be 'settled'. It really is amazing how they can kid themselves about this.
Agreed. Remaining might be least worst outcome, that's a view many might take, but they are behaving like those they condemn In selling a vague overly optimistic scenario. It's why although he is brighter than his counterparts in leave I'm not a fan of grieve - he's a fanatic who will do anything to get what he wants no matter the cost because he sees it as a moral mission.
Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.
You can't project from a handful of fanatics to the views of millions.
I'm not. It is not a hard Brexit that people voted for, just a Brexit. Hard or soft, I doubt they are going to take kindly to being told there is no Brexit. Unlike you it seems I actually talk to people who voted Leave and know how they would feel if they were told it was all off. If you want to kill democracy in this country go right ahead. But don't say you weren't warned.
Hopefully they (we) won't be "told", but asked.
Its the same thing. The politicians telling the electorate they got it wrong and have to do it again. We can point to the same thing in plenty of other EU votes where the EU side lost and they told the electorate to do it again. If you think that is a message that will be welcomed by most people who voted Leave then you really are out of touch.
That is certainly the message all of us on the Leave side will be pushing from now on.
Parliament thinks you are too stupid so you have to vote again until you vote the way they want.
It’s certainly a sensible line to use to try and whip up outraged support, but ‘Parliament has tried to do what you want, but fears that any real-world way of doing that would only be supported by a minority of the electorate and so wants to check’ is probably more honest.
No it really isn't. Parliament has a large inbuilt Remain majority and always has had. I am afraid that argument is neither honest nor likely to gain any traction with the public. Even those on the Remain side will recognise what has happened whether they agree with it or not./
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration
If net European migration continues to trend towards zero it will lose all salience and no-one will be bothered by the principle. It was only in the context of high immigration overall that it became a political football.
Net European migration has been dropping because people thought we were leaving the EU. If we decide not to it will quickly reverse again.
OTOH, the meme that the UK is a nasty intolerant place for EU citizens may continue to have an effect for years to come. It does not matter if it is true or not, so long as it exists and is believed.
And not asking on the legal advice. Way beyond him
Wait for the question from Gregory Campbell of the DUP.
Not the point really
Yes it is given your beloved TM has no majority without them.
I really am past caring about the DUP. If they want a GE so be it
Why should those pesky Ulster folk have the outrageous belief they should be able to elect the people who shape their laws?
This is the 21st century. Why should Northern Ireland have democracy? Colonies with no representatives are all the rage these days.
Northern Ireland business, farmers, and the political community all endorse TM deal as a fantastic opportunity for Ireland leaving the DUP on their own and losing their core support
Great let them vote for it.
Scrapping democracy is NEVER acceptable.
Hence the argument for a second referendum.
But Big G is correct. A no deal scenario would be disastrous for the DUP. Deservedly.
A second referendum before you have enacted the first is not democracy. No matter how much you might keep trying to claim otherwise.
What a load of Horlicks, no matter how much you might keep trying to claim otherwise.
A second referendum would be about how we implement the (extremely vague) instruction from the first - or if finding both options available (May and no deal) utterly unpalatable, change our minds.
Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.
You can't project from a handful of fanatics to the views of millions.
I'm not. It is not a hard Brexit that people voted for, just a Brexit. Hard or soft, I doubt they are going to take kindly to being told there is no Brexit. Unlike you it seems I actually talk to people who voted Leave and know how they would feel if they were told it was all off. If you want to kill democracy in this country go right ahead. But don't say you weren't warned.
Hopefully they (we) won't be "told", but asked.
Its the same thing. The politicians telling the electorate they got it wrong and have to do it again. We can point to the same thing in plenty of other EU votes where the EU side lost and they told the electorate to do it again. If you think that is a message that will be welcomed by most people who voted Leave then you really are out of touch.
That is certainly the message all of us on the Leave side will be pushing from now on.
Parliament thinks you are too stupid so you have to vote again until you vote the way they want.
If you think that choosing a door and then having to eat whatever happens to be behind it without any further chance to decide makes any kind of sense, then you really are stupid.
Your enthusiasms for referendums does you credit. On the EU, we must have a referendum if public opinion changes? If public opinion (based on any opinion poll) switches back and forth as it may well do, that means another referendum each time, surely? Or is only until you get the result you want?
If we escape from this train of horrors, I very much doubt people will want to go through it all over again. If they do, so be it.
Most likely, we continue to be increasingly unhappy members of the EU, continually complaining about the direction of travel.
Yep. This is the Remainer delusion. That if we vote to cancel Brexit then everything will not just go back to the way it was but will be 'settled'. It really is amazing how they can kid themselves about this.
Well Brexit has proved a career-ending disaster for just about every senior politician who got involved with it so if it is reversed I think it will be many years before it reappears as a serious idea. No sensible politician will go near it.
Just look at what it has done to Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, May, and, a bit further back, Hague, Major, Clarke, IDS, all victims in one way or another of the Tories Brexit obsession.
Four in ten Brits (42%) oppose it, based on what they have seen and heard so far, compared to only 19% who are in favour. A further 39% answered “don’t know”.
After a brief bounce in popularity last week, May's deal has slipped -6 points.
The 39% don't know is unsurprising. The complex nature of this is that even those in the bubble do not know
If this goes to a referendum I would expect don't knows to fall heavily to remain as easier to understand and safer
Isn't there a law of polling that you always assume the "don't knows" will split the same way as the ones that have made their mind up?
I think it is more likely the don't knows won't vote - and turnout is likely to be way down on 2016. It is going to be hard to replicate the enthusiasm and engagement of the original vote when voters were told the Government would implement what they decide. I expect many voters may well think -what's the point because they didn't last time.
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration
If net European migration continues to trend towards zero it will lose all salience and no-one will be bothered by the principle. It was only in the context of high immigration overall that it became a political football.
Net European migration has been dropping because people thought we were leaving the EU. If we decide not to it will quickly reverse again.
OTOH, the meme that the UK is a nasty intolerant place for EU citizens may continue to have an effect for years to come. It does not matter if it is true or not, so long as it exists and is believed.
Of course it matters if it is true or not. It makes addressing the meme very different.
No Deal won't be offered. It would be a choice between Remain, and take a deal we've voted down. Rather like a magician asking you to pick a card, any card.
Exactly. Plus the deal leaves the future relationship undefined and therefore is unsuitable for a referendum. Ditto No Deal, which has different meanings that can't be pinned down to a referendum suitable specific proposition, and in its extreme form is opposed by virtually the whole HoC. Leaving Remain as the only viable candidate for inclusion on the ballot. Ergo a referendum with just one option and furthermore one which has already been rejected by the public. Utter farce. Not happening.
Not happening or you don't want it to happen? Potentially very different things.....!
Parliament has considered the recent opinion proffered by the electorate that the UK should leave the EU, and regrettably has found that opinion to be rabid, pig-ignorant and stultifyingly ill-informed.
As such, we will not be bringing forward legislation to enact this terrible opinion at this time.
Parliament thanks you for the opportunity to be involved in your poorly thought out opinions, and hopes you will consider us again next time you need somebody to point out when you're being massive idiots.
If the first result is overturned by a second vote then there is nothing undemocratic about it. If we can't change our minds in light of events then we aren't living in much of a democracy in the first place.
A pro Remain HoC refusing to implement the 1st vote does not makes the democratic case for a 2nd one.
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration
If net European migration continues to trend towards zero it will lose all salience and no-one will be bothered by the principle. It was only in the context of high immigration overall that it became a political football.
Net European migration has been dropping because people thought we were leaving the EU. If we decide not to it will quickly reverse again.
OTOH, the meme that the UK is a nasty intolerant place for EU citizens may continue to have an effect for years to come. It does not matter if it is true or not, so long as it exists and is believed.
Of course it matters if it is true or not. It makes addressing the meme very different.
Perception is more important than fact. Thus Brexit
Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.
You can't project from a handful of fanatics to the views of millions.
I'm not. It is not a hard Brexit that people voted for, just a Brexit. Hard or soft, I doubt they are going to take kindly to being told there is no Brexit. Unlike you it seems I actually talk to people who voted Leave and know how they would feel if they were told it was all off. If you want to kill democracy in this country go right ahead. But don't say you weren't warned.
Hopefully they (we) won't be "told", but asked.
Its the same thing. The politicians telling the electorate they got it wrong and have to do it again. We can point to the same thing in plenty of other EU votes where the EU side lost and they told the electorate to do it again. If you think that is a message that will be welcomed by most people who voted Leave then you really are out of touch.
That is certainly the message all of us on the Leave side will be pushing from now on.
Parliament thinks you are too stupid so you have to vote again until you vote the way they want.
It’s certainly a sensible line to use to try and whip up outraged support, but ‘Parliament has tried to do what you want, but fears that any real-world way of doing that would only be supported by a minority of the electorate and so wants to check’ is probably more honest.
No it really isn't. Parliament has a large inbuilt Remain majority and always has had. I am afraid that argument is neither honest nor likely to gain any traction with the public. Even those on the Remain side will recognise what has happened whether they agree with it or not./
I can’t think of any form of Brexit that clearly has majority support - maybe a super-Norway BINO, because it would probably get the support of a proportion of remain voters, though at the expense of being reviled by a large proportion of Brexit voters. That would seem a bit undemocratic, wouldn’t it?
" ... hopes you will consider us again next time you need somebody to point out when you're being massive idiots."
Uncomfortably close to the truth in that it exactly what Parliament would be saying. And it thinks we'll sit back and say … 'Yes'm Massa, them damn Yankees, they done burn all de cotton."
Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.
You can't project from a handful of fanatics to the views of millions.
I'm not. It is not a hard Brexit that people voted for, just a Brexit. Hard or soft, I doubt they are going to take kindly to being told there is no Brexit. Unlike you it seems I actually talk to people who voted Leave and know how they would feel if they were told it was all off. If you want to kill democracy in this country go right ahead. But don't say you weren't warned.
Hopefully they (we) won't be "told", but asked.
Its the same thing. The politicians telling the electorate they got it wrong and have to do it again. We can point to the same thing in plenty of other EU votes where the EU side lost and they told the electorate to do it again. If you think that is a message that will be welcomed by most people who voted Leave then you really are out of touch.
That is certainly the message all of us on the Leave side will be pushing from now on.
Parliament thinks you are too stupid so you have to vote again until you vote the way they want.
It's an understandable attitude. What both sides will need, in a future referendum is more clarity. On the Remainer side less Project Fear and on the Leaver side less dishonesty.
Neither side will be willing to provide it (and yes that is an explicit criticism of both campaigns).
UKIP or a Farage alternative will shoot up in the polls if free movement is kept, the only reason they have fallen since 2015 is both the Tories and Labour promised to leave the single market and end free movement and the Tories in particular focused higher border controls and more skills based immigration
If net European migration continues to trend towards zero it will lose all salience and no-one will be bothered by the principle. It was only in the context of high immigration overall that it became a political football.
Net European migration has been dropping because people thought we were leaving the EU. If we decide not to it will quickly reverse again.
OTOH, the meme that the UK is a nasty intolerant place for EU citizens may continue to have an effect for years to come. It does not matter if it is true or not, so long as it exists and is believed.
Of course it matters if it is true or not. It makes addressing the meme very different.
Perception is more important than fact. Thus Brexit
True. I would say that I more dislike the idea of a 2nd ref than I am confident that it will not happen. But I am pretty confident. I really don't see it.
Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.
If the first result is overturned by a second vote then there is nothing undemocratic about it. If we can't change our minds in light of events then we aren't living in much of a democracy in the first place.
Of course there is. A Remainer Parliament failing to carry out the wishes of the people and then going back and saying you got it wrong vote again is not democracy.
Norway (no plus) might, but it would require a referendum in NI to see if they're happy being jettisoned into eternal Euro-vassalage (probably)
Norway+ could (DUP would support, enough Tory and Labour support could be found even if the leadership were opposed), especially if some big beasts got on board from both sides.
Your enthusiasms for referendums does you credit. On the EU, we must have a referendum if public opinion changes? If public opinion (based on any opinion poll) switches back and forth as it may well do, that means another referendum each time, surely? Or is only until you get the result you want?
If we escape from this train of horrors, I very much doubt people will want to go through it all over again. If they do, so be it.
Most likely, we continue to be increasingly unhappy members of the EU, continually complaining about the direction of travel.
Yep. This is the Remainer delusion. That if we vote to cancel Brexit then everything will not just go back to the way it was but will be 'settled'. It really is amazing how they can kid themselves about this.
Opinions of Leave voters are I think far more hostile to the EU now than they were two years ago as a consequence of the way the EU has conducted itself. Some may have come around to the view that for now it might be better to stay, given that the UK government's abject approach to negotiation offers only a settlement that amounts to national humiliation. But they do so on sufferance and that means that nothing is settled.
There will be a fourth "Peoples' Vote" in the not too distant future (after 1975, 2016 and no doubt 2019). If the vote is then for Leave and the UK is led by a Government with a working majority and which supports that course resolutely and wholeheartedly, who the EU knows will be willing to walk away from negotiations, then the EU will be in deep trouble.
Your enthusiasms for referendums does you credit. On the EU, we must have a referendum if public opinion changes? If public opinion (based on any opinion poll) switches back and forth as it may well do, that means another referendum each time, surely? Or is only until you get the result you want?
If we escape from this train of horrors, I very much doubt people will want to go through it all over again. If they do, so be it.
Most likely, we continue to be increasingly unhappy members of the EU, continually complaining about the direction of travel.
Yep. This is the Remainer delusion. That if we vote to cancel Brexit then everything will not just go back to the way it was but will be 'settled'. It really is amazing how they can kid themselves about this.
Well Brexit has proved a career-ending disaster for just about every senior politician who got involved with it so if it is reversed I think it will be many years before it reappears as a serious idea. No sensible politician will go near it.
Just look at what it has done to Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, May, and, a bit further back, Hague, Major, Clarke, IDS, all victims in one way or another of the Tories Brexit obsession.
It will certainly be career ending for many in Parliament if they fail to deliver.
Always been a strong remainer but believed that the referendum result should be honoured.
Now we face No Deal I am changing my mind. I have come round to thinking that if we go down the No Deal route and it is an economic disaster we will still see no contrition from the Brexiteers they will simply shrug and say it isn't planned properly or some other lame excuse thereby pretending it has nothing to do with them.
I now hope we somehow get to vote again and the first result is democratically overturned. Nothing is ever going to satisfy the Brexit hardliners so we may as well stop trying.
It is not the hardliners you have to worry about. It is the 17 million or so others who will rightly feel that democracy doesn't work any more.
You can't project from a handful of fanatics to the views of millions.
I'm not. It is not a hard Brexit that people voted for, just a Brexit. Hard or soft, I doubt they are going to take kindly to being told there is no Brexit. Unlike you it seems I actually talk to people who voted Leave and know how they would feel if they were told it was all off. If you want to kill democracy in this country go right ahead. But don't say you weren't warned.
Hopefully they (we) won't be "told", but asked.
Its the same thing. The politicians telling the electorate they got it wrong and have to do it again. We can point to the same thing in plenty of other EU votes where the EU side lost and they told the electorate to do it again. If you think that is a message that will be welcomed by most people who voted Leave then you really are out of touch.
That is certainly the message all of us on the Leave side will be pushing from now on.
Parliament thinks you are too stupid so you have to vote again until you vote the way they want.
If you think that choosing a door and then having to eat whatever happens to be behind it without any further chance to decide makes any kind of sense, then you really are stupid.
We don't know what is behind it. That again is your delusion.
'Theo's ludicrous argument is obviously wrong: Commonwealth citizens can vote in General Elections but EU citizens can't.'
Apart from Irish citizens - and of course Maltese and Cypriots who are both. We do perhaps need to look at the franchise again as its quite ridiculous if such rights are not reciprocal. They are with Ireland on an unrestricted basis - but UK nationals cannot vote in general elections in almost every Commonwealth nation so why should their nationals get to vote here.
Frankly only Irish and UK nationals should get to vote in our general elections - as we have reciprocal rights - and arguably only UK nationals should have a vote in national 'constitutional' referendums such as leaving the EU (as Brits cannot vote in Irish constitutional referenda).
As for the immigration stats 'the number of EU citizens coming to the UK is continuing to drop' - yes but they are still coming and there is still a significant net increase year on year. London - or perhaps its just my area - appears to be now increasingly full of young Spaniards, French and increasingly Italians - in addition to eastern European nationals. Just anecdotal from travelling daily around London and observing languages spoken. I rarely heard Italian - now its increasingly common.
Our immigration stats of course exclude short term migrants who indicate they plan to stay for less than one year and are primarily still based on the international passenger survey (i.e. people with a clipboard at airports). They may not tell the whole story - planned temporary residency for work on arrival by young EU nationals may well become permanent but the former aren't counted in the official stats.
Short term migration numbers are very high- but they aren't included in the published population stats as it is assumed they leave - but we don't know if they do as we have no exit controls.
Big turnout for the Bush Snr funeral, first time I think all living ex Presidents have been alongside Trump and a slightly awkward handshake between Trump and Obama. Also I think the first time in decades there are more living Democrat presidents, Carter, Clinton and Obama than Republicans, George W Bush and Trump.
John Major and Prince Charles leading the British contingent
Comments
Your enthusiasms for referendums does you credit. On the EU, we must have a referendum if public opinion changes? If public opinion (based on any opinion poll) switches back and forth as it may well do, that means another referendum each time, surely? Or is only until you get the result you want?
I guess at this point since the deal as will fail and a renegotiation is labour policy and popular with the Tories too they might as well accept it. Goodness only knows what they do if they cannot get that change (The EU might like others to think again but they don't like being told it themselves) but I guess good luck to them.
Cf Maria Caulfield’s tweet downthread.
Merkel won in 2017 despite a high AfD vote as it also took SPD voters.
Your analysis UKIP only takes from Tories is completely wrong and the far right BNP did best in Labour seats like Burnley and Dagenham
"The backstop is even more of a constitutional, politcal and legal outrage than any of us imagined."
I listened to the legal advice yesterday. We already knew it was dependent on the EU playing nicely. The AG and Mrs May think they will, I don't. Nothing has changed at all.
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-46453425
The government needs to act here.
Mrs May commanded to go back and renegotiate the backstop away with the EU, having cajoled them all into publicly saying that this deal was final.
Surely not enough humble pie in the universe for that?
29-Nov -2018
"The number of EU citizens moving to the UK has continued to drop, but more people coming from elsewhere means the overall migration rate is unchanged.
Figures show net migration - the difference between how many people came to the UK for at least 12 months and how many left - was 273,000 last year.
EU net migration was 74,000 in the year to the end of June 2018, while non-EU net migration was 248,000.
The ONS said more Asian citizens had been moving to the UK for work."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46384417
Pro Remain HoC refuses to implement and asks the public to vote again.
C'mon.
If that is 'democracy' we need to ask the Oxford English to get toiling on a new definition.
After a brief bounce in popularity last week, May's deal has slipped -6 points.
They spent 2 years of blood and treasure and couldn't get it done
If this goes to a referendum I would expect don't knows to fall heavily to remain as easier to understand and safer
That is certainly the message all of us on the Leave side will be pushing from now on.
Parliament thinks you are too stupid so you have to vote again until you vote the way they want.
Once you the name Andrew Rosidell then I think it's a safe bet that it'll be something stupid
THE QUEEN
something something something
UNION JACK
something something
See if you can spot Chequers and the Deal.
A second referendum would be about how we implement the (extremely vague) instruction from the first - or if finding both options available (May and no deal) utterly unpalatable, change our minds.
Just look at what it has done to Cameron, Osborne, Johnson, May, and, a bit further back, Hague, Major, Clarke, IDS, all victims in one way or another of the Tories Brexit obsession.
Parliament has considered the recent opinion proffered by the electorate that the UK should leave the EU, and regrettably has found that opinion to be rabid, pig-ignorant and stultifyingly ill-informed.
As such, we will not be bringing forward legislation to enact this terrible opinion at this time.
Parliament thanks you for the opportunity to be involved in your poorly thought out opinions, and hopes you will consider us again next time you need somebody to point out when you're being massive idiots.
Kindest Regards,
Parliament
NEW THREAD
" ... hopes you will consider us again next time you need somebody to point out when you're being massive idiots."
Uncomfortably close to the truth in that it exactly what Parliament would be saying. And it thinks we'll sit back and say … 'Yes'm Massa, them damn Yankees, they done burn all de cotton."
True. I would say that I more dislike the idea of a 2nd ref than I am confident that it will not happen. But I am pretty confident. I really don't see it.
Norway+ could (DUP would support, enough Tory and Labour support could be found even if the leadership were opposed), especially if some big beasts got on board from both sides.
There will be a fourth "Peoples' Vote" in the not too distant future (after 1975, 2016 and no doubt 2019). If the vote is then for Leave and the UK is led by a Government with a working majority and which supports that course resolutely and wholeheartedly, who the EU knows will be willing to walk away from negotiations, then the EU will be in deep trouble.
Apart from Irish citizens - and of course Maltese and Cypriots who are both. We do perhaps need to look at the franchise again as its quite ridiculous if such rights are not reciprocal. They are with Ireland on an unrestricted basis - but UK nationals cannot vote in general elections in almost every Commonwealth nation so why should their nationals get to vote here.
Frankly only Irish and UK nationals should get to vote in our general elections - as we have reciprocal rights - and arguably only UK nationals should have a vote in national 'constitutional' referendums such as leaving the EU (as Brits cannot vote in Irish constitutional referenda).
As for the immigration stats 'the number of EU citizens coming to the UK is continuing to drop' - yes but they are still coming and there is still a significant net increase year on year. London - or perhaps its just my area - appears to be now increasingly full of young Spaniards, French and increasingly Italians - in addition to eastern European nationals. Just anecdotal from travelling daily around London and observing languages spoken. I rarely heard Italian - now its increasingly common.
Our immigration stats of course exclude short term migrants who indicate they plan to stay for less than one year and are primarily still based on the international passenger survey (i.e. people with a clipboard at airports). They may not tell the whole story - planned temporary residency for work on arrival by young EU nationals may well become permanent but the former aren't counted in the official stats.
Short term migration numbers are very high- but they aren't included in the published population stats as it is assumed they leave - but we don't know if they do as we have no exit controls.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/shortterminternationalmigrationannualreport/yearendingjune2016
MPs stealing Brexit from the people ! Oh bless the poor thing is upset that someone took his toys away!
John Major and Prince Charles leading the British contingent