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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Hobson’s choice – the issues facing the Labour movement

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited March 7 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Hobson’s choice – the issues facing the Labour movement

How far does loyalty stretch? How far should it stretch? Loyalty to persons who have behaved wrongly is misplaced loyalty but is more common than it should be. Still, even in the absence of misbehaviour there is no one easy answer to this, especially for anyone who has voluntarily joined a group because they believed in its mission, in what it was trying to do.

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Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 18,648
    First!
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 7,440
    Nothing ever lasts forever. If labour is gone, then time to build something better.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 18,648
    Unhappy MPs in both parties should put up. Never has our political system been more in need of change.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 56,065
    Utah state legislature passes a bill to decriminalise sex outside of marriage but it still needs the Governor's approval

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fornication-in-utah-to-no-longer-be-illegal
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 18,648
    FPT:

    At Belvedere Forum @CER_Grant says chances of May deal passing next week 20-25%, Customs Union 25 %, No Deal 10 %, General Election 20 %, and further referendum 20 %. "Essentially we don't know what is going to happen."

    That feels like it underestimates the chances of TMay's deal failing again, and her pulling the rest of the votes to prevent anything else from passing.
    Surely that rumour has been put about to reduce the chance of it happening> Certainly the Chancellor was talking about all of next week's votes on R4 this morning. Having explicitly promised to hold the votes (and reminded us she has kept all such earlier promises) it would be the nuclear option to pull them now, surely driving a few Tories to TIG.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 11,896

    Nothing ever lasts forever. If labour is gone, then time to build something better.

    Bring the Tories down at the same time. They are two cheeks of the same arse.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 56,065
    IanB2 said:

    FPT:

    At Belvedere Forum @CER_Grant says chances of May deal passing next week 20-25%, Customs Union 25 %, No Deal 10 %, General Election 20 %, and further referendum 20 %. "Essentially we don't know what is going to happen."

    That feels like it underestimates the chances of TMay's deal failing again, and her pulling the rest of the votes to prevent anything else from passing.
    Surely that rumour has been put about to reduce the chance of it happening> Certainly the Chancellor was talking about all of next week's votes on R4 this morning. Having explicitly promised to hold the votes (and reminded us she has kept all such earlier promises) it would be the nuclear option to pull them now, surely driving a few Tories to TIG.
    The votes would still be held, the question is just whether after a 2nd or 3rd MV
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 8,603
    Blimey that Jezza photo must be the most frequently used on PB thread headers.

    Interesting header as ever from @Cyclefree - thanks!

    Sort of on topic: what happened to the the Conservative Party that used to want to, you know, conserve things (great public institutions, a way of life, etc.)?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 25,177
    "Far Left groupuscules" - I prefer to think of them as Far Left groupustules. As do Labour MPs.

    Labour MP's still feel vehemently that their Party is still their Party. Their voters are still their voters. It's their membership that is no longer their membership. And a small coterie at the top are happy enough to see that membership include some very rum coves....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 22,172
    edited March 7
    I still always laugh at that photo, and what must have been the process behind the scenes that led it to happen. (For those who don't know, it was for a TV comedy show).

    At what point in the process did his handlers think it might be a bad idea, and did they fall for old excuse that the production company had already rented the ermine coat and the Bentley so it would be poor form to cancel it at a late stage?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 2,884
    Good article Ms. Cyclefree. It is very depressing when the party one has supported for many years (Conservative in my case) gets taken over by its most extreme elements.

    My own view is that it is the natural end point of a tendency which has become prevalent in the last 20 years; the "I don't do politics" tendency. This means that the parties are taken over by those that do "do politics" and these are for the most part the extremists, the true believers; those who build their sense of being on who they are not rather than how they can reach out to their neighbour and try and understand her/him. Brexiteers are examples of this.

    I can only hope that those of a more moderate disposition wake up and realise it is time they did "do politics" before it is too late.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 8,603

    "Far Left groupuscules" - I prefer to think of them as Far Left groupustules. As do Labour MPs.

    Labour MP's still feel vehemently that their Party is still their Party. Their voters are still their voters. It's their membership that is no longer their membership. And a small coterie at the top are happy enough to see that membership include some very rum coves....

    Good point about Labour members but how in tune do you think the Conservative members are with the party leadership and Conservative voters?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 23,577
    HYUFD said:

    Utah state legislature passes a bill to decriminalise sex outside of marriage but it still needs the Governor's approval

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fornication-in-utah-to-no-longer-be-illegal

    I can imagine:

    “Mr Governor, can Julie and I have sex tonight? We’re not married but we love other very much”
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 7,440
    Jonathan said:

    Nothing ever lasts forever. If labour is gone, then time to build something better.

    Bring the Tories down at the same time. They are two cheeks of the same arse.
    Id go along with that... we need a 21st century re-formation and re-structure of politics.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 2,884

    "Far Left groupuscules" - I prefer to think of them as Far Left groupustules. As do Labour MPs.

    Labour MP's still feel vehemently that their Party is still their Party. Their voters are still their voters. It's their membership that is no longer their membership. And a small coterie at the top are happy enough to see that membership include some very rum coves....

    Good point about Labour members but how in tune do you think the Conservative members are with the party leadership and Conservative voters?
    Relatively in tune with the leadership, but an extreme caricature of conservative voters. It is a problem that will eventually have consequences.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,750
    Mr. Sandpit (FPT), is that the case? We haven't even seen the current incarnation running with all its bits.

    Mr. Charles, is adultery a criminal offence in Utah? If not, Julia could just marry someone else, and then it'd be legal.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,143
    edited March 7
    Sandpit said:

    I still always laugh at that photo, and what must have been the process behind the scenes that led it to happen. (For those who don't know, it was for a TV comedy show).

    At what point in the process did his handlers think it might be a bad idea, and did they fall for old excuse that the production company had already rented the ermine coat and the Bentley so it would be poor form to cancel it at a late stage?

    I'm not sure they've come around to the bad idea way of thinking quite yet, more at the that went well stage.

    I don't know if older people would react negatively to that kind of thing but the last leg tends to have a younger audience (I assume anyway) or at least one more towards that way of thinking.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 25,177

    "Far Left groupuscules" - I prefer to think of them as Far Left groupustules. As do Labour MPs.

    Labour MP's still feel vehemently that their Party is still their Party. Their voters are still their voters. It's their membership that is no longer their membership. And a small coterie at the top are happy enough to see that membership include some very rum coves....

    Good point about Labour members but how in tune do you think the Conservative members are with the party leadership and Conservative voters?
    I think the difference is that the Tory membership and Tory voters are rightly appalled and frustrated that the Party's MPs are pursuing their own agenda. In Labour, the MPs and the voters are rightly appalled and frustrated that the membership are pursuing their own agenda.
  • TomsToms Posts: 1,726
    edited March 7
    The picture above shows a particularly fancy example of a modern perversion, aka an automobile, the increasing use of which is symptomatic of our doom.

    I can not disagree with one word of this George Monbiot article, 'tho I do find it a bit understated:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/07/cars-killing-us-driving-environment-phase-out
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 8,445
    " It is surely time for unhappy Labour MPs to put up or shut up."

    If by 'put up' you mean leave the party then I strongly disagree. Everyone in the party has the right to espouse their personal vision of Socialism, and to win over others through their strength of argument. That is what MPs should be doing.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 8,603
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Utah state legislature passes a bill to decriminalise sex outside of marriage but it still needs the Governor's approval

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fornication-in-utah-to-no-longer-be-illegal

    I can imagine:

    “Mr Governor, can Julie and I have sex tonight? We’re not married but we love other very much”
    :lol:
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 22,172

    Sandpit said:

    I still always laugh at that photo, and what must have been the process behind the scenes that led it to happen. (For those who don't know, it was for a TV comedy show).

    At what point in the process did his handlers think it might be a bad idea, and did they fall for old excuse that the production company had already rented the ermine coat and the Bentley so it would be poor form to cancel it at a late stage?

    I'm not sure they've come around to the bad idea way of thinking quite yet, more at the that went well stage.

    I don't know if older people would react negatively to that kind of thing but the last leg tends to have a younger audience (I assume anyway) or at least one more towards that way of thinking.
    It just seemed so far out of character for him to dress up like that, and as we see above it's not difficult for something that was funny at the time to later be taken well out of context.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 5,246
    Morning all :)

    You'd better believe it's not just Labour and Conservatives where party members have to grapple with these questions, As a Leave-voting anti-second vote LD it's not comfortable for me to see where the party I have supported financially and in other ways for many years has gone. There have been times (the Iraq War and, whisper it quietly, some aspects of the Coalition years) when I have felt proud to be a Lib Dem and knew we were doing something to benefit all the country.

    And yet, there's still that strand that keeps me with Vince for now. I look at the TIG or the Progressives and I genuinely wish them well but I need to know a lot more what they stand for beyond Brexit. Hopefully, as the 11 and others get to know each other and spend time together they realise much more unites them than divides them.

    I see the pro-Deal Henry Newman has put up a cogent and coherent argument as to why it's not such a bad Deal and we should all vote for it. I'm still not entirely convinced but it's a case of sorts - the problem I have is I can see the political consequences of the Deal passing which will be an avalanche of gushing euphoric praise for the Prime Minister and all the missteps and idiocies of the last twenty three and a half months melting like chocolate in front of a good fire.

    The poll boost will lead to calls for May to stay on to fight the GE - who cares what she said or agreed, she has saved Britain and the Union, shower her with roses and let her govern for ever. I'm a believer in accountability, don't know why but I am - the question is not that she stopped us going over the cliff, the question is why she led us to the edge in the first place.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 25,196
    Political parties evolve over time. The Conservatives are no longer riven by imperial preference or the Corn laws, and have now gone full circle from being an anti-business party to a pro-business party to an anti-business party once more.

    Individuals' political views evolve over time. Leavers who three years ago had not decided to vote Leave and who were then horrified about the idea of leaving the single market are now enthusiastically arguing for no deal.

    If you no longer identify with the consensus of core values of the party you once supported, you should leave. That applies equally to both main parties. It's not like supporting a football club. You can change your affiliation.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 12,457
    This rather overstates the horror that most people on the left feel about ex-Communists. Nowadays Communist parties barely exist and few people care whether someone used to support them - it's like previously believing in Santa, as Healey put it. There is little in the abstract concept that left-wingers would disagree with in principle (from each according to ability, to each according to need - the way one personally should try to live and treat one's family and friends, IMO), but we varied in how quickly we noticed that it doesn't work in government. I still find the Morning Star quite useful (and they are nowadays not a mouthpiece for one party but for any old left-wing faction) because they cover issues that few other newspapers care about - oppression of trade unionists around the world, etc.

    People who say they'd support a Labour government but would be highly critical friends and might vote against a particular policy are in principle fine with me (depending on the details). The position is different if someone stands on a Labour platform, gets Labour votes, but says they won't support a Labour government. I think they are deceiving the electorate, the party and themselves, and should quit.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 22,172

    Mr. Sandpit (FPT), is that the case? We haven't even seen the current incarnation running with all its bits.

    I think that turning up three days late to the first test was probably the final straw for the board, after Lowe had promised the car would be competitive. The problem they have is that Lowe was given shares in the company on his appointment (same as Toto Wolff at Mercedes) so it's not going to be to easy to sack him. Unless they score a hatful points in Australia he's not coming back.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,781

    "Far Left groupuscules" - I prefer to think of them as Far Left groupustules. As do Labour MPs.

    Labour MP's still feel vehemently that their Party is still their Party. Their voters are still their voters. It's their membership that is no longer their membership. And a small coterie at the top are happy enough to see that membership include some very rum coves....

    Good point about Labour members but how in tune do you think the Conservative members are with the party leadership and Conservative voters?
    Pretty representative of cutrent Conservative voters.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 8,445



    The position is different if someone stands on a Labour platform, gets Labour votes, but says they won't support a Labour government. I think they are deceiving the electorate, the party and themselves, and should quit.

    How many hundred times would an MP have to vote against the Labour whip for that to apply?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 14,149
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    You'd better believe it's not just Labour and Conservatives where party members have to grapple with these questions, As a Leave-voting anti-second vote LD it's not comfortable for me to see where the party I have supported financially and in other ways for many years has gone. There have been times (the Iraq War and, whisper it quietly, some aspects of the Coalition years) when I have felt proud to be a Lib Dem and knew we were doing something to benefit all the country.

    And yet, there's still that strand that keeps me with Vince for now. I look at the TIG or the Progressives and I genuinely wish them well but I need to know a lot more what they stand for beyond Brexit. Hopefully, as the 11 and others get to know each other and spend time together they realise much more unites them than divides them.

    I see the pro-Deal Henry Newman has put up a cogent and coherent argument as to why it's not such a bad Deal and we should all vote for it. I'm still not entirely convinced but it's a case of sorts - the problem I have is I can see the political consequences of the Deal passing which will be an avalanche of gushing euphoric praise for the Prime Minister and all the missteps and idiocies of the last twenty three and a half months melting like chocolate in front of a good fire.

    The poll boost will lead to calls for May to stay on to fight the GE - who cares what she said or agreed, she has saved Britain and the Union, shower her with roses and let her govern for ever. I'm a believer in accountability, don't know why but I am - the question is not that she stopped us going over the cliff, the question is why she led us to the edge in the first place.

    I've read here that if the Deal passes May should then resign and let a 'true believer' do future negotiations.

    But which 'true believer' is willing to do the work and take the responsibility, to do the proper preparation and give the necessary attention to detail.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 8,445
    "Greggs vegan sausage roll boosts sales"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47480247

    I always knew that mincing up vegans and turning them into sausage rolls was a good idea.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,750
    edited March 7
    ......



    Edited extra bit: at the time of writing, the tweet cited there is up on the band's Twitter feed.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 23,828

    This rather overstates the horror that most people on the left feel about ex-Communists. Nowadays Communist parties barely exist and few people care whether someone used to support them - it's like previously believing in Santa, as Healey put it. There is little in the abstract concept that left-wingers would disagree with in principle (from each according to ability, to each according to need - the way one personally should try to live and treat one's family and friends, IMO), but we varied in how quickly we noticed that it doesn't work in government. I still find the Morning Star quite useful (and they are nowadays not a mouthpiece for one party but for any old left-wing faction) because they cover issues that few other newspapers care about - oppression of trade unionists around the world, etc.

    People who say they'd support a Labour government but would be highly critical friends and might vote against a particular policy are in principle fine with me (depending on the details). The position is different if someone stands on a Labour platform, gets Labour votes, but says they won't support a Labour government. I think they are deceiving the electorate, the party and themselves, and should quit.

    A clarification: it's like believing in a Santa that has killed millions and not noticeably improved the world in any way. It's like believing in a Santa that is lying in a p*ss-laden gutter, eight cans of Tennants Extra lying by its side.

    Communism matters, because it is an evil system wrapped up in a comfort blanket that is liked by likewise evil people and idiots.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 22,172

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    You'd better believe it's not just Labour and Conservatives where party members have to grapple with these questions, As a Leave-voting anti-second vote LD it's not comfortable for me to see where the party I have supported financially and in other ways for many years has gone. There have been times (the Iraq War and, whisper it quietly, some aspects of the Coalition years) when I have felt proud to be a Lib Dem and knew we were doing something to benefit all the country.

    And yet, there's still that strand that keeps me with Vince for now. I look at the TIG or the Progressives and I genuinely wish them well but I need to know a lot more what they stand for beyond Brexit. Hopefully, as the 11 and others get to know each other and spend time together they realise much more unites them than divides them.

    I see the pro-Deal Henry Newman has put up a cogent and coherent argument as to why it's not such a bad Deal and we should all vote for it. I'm still not entirely convinced but it's a case of sorts - the problem I have is I can see the political consequences of the Deal passing which will be an avalanche of gushing euphoric praise for the Prime Minister and all the missteps and idiocies of the last twenty three and a half months melting like chocolate in front of a good fire.

    The poll boost will lead to calls for May to stay on to fight the GE - who cares what she said or agreed, she has saved Britain and the Union, shower her with roses and let her govern for ever. I'm a believer in accountability, don't know why but I am - the question is not that she stopped us going over the cliff, the question is why she led us to the edge in the first place.

    I've read here that if the Deal passes May should then resign and let a 'true believer' do future negotiations.

    But which 'true believer' is willing to do the work and take the responsibility, to do the proper preparation and give the necessary attention to detail.
    Michael Gove.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 52,472
    edited March 7


    I've read here that if the Deal passes May should then resign and let a 'true believer' do future negotiations.

    But which 'true believer' is willing to do the work and take the responsibility, to do the proper preparation and give the necessary attention to detail.

    Michael Gove.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 14,149
    Sandpit said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    You'd better believe it's not just Labour and Conservatives where party members have to grapple with these questions, As a Leave-voting anti-second vote LD it's not comfortable for me to see where the party I have supported financially and in other ways for many years has gone. There have been times (the Iraq War and, whisper it quietly, some aspects of the Coalition years) when I have felt proud to be a Lib Dem and knew we were doing something to benefit all the country.

    And yet, there's still that strand that keeps me with Vince for now. I look at the TIG or the Progressives and I genuinely wish them well but I need to know a lot more what they stand for beyond Brexit. Hopefully, as the 11 and others get to know each other and spend time together they realise much more unites them than divides them.

    I see the pro-Deal Henry Newman has put up a cogent and coherent argument as to why it's not such a bad Deal and we should all vote for it. I'm still not entirely convinced but it's a case of sorts - the problem I have is I can see the political consequences of the Deal passing which will be an avalanche of gushing euphoric praise for the Prime Minister and all the missteps and idiocies of the last twenty three and a half months melting like chocolate in front of a good fire.

    The poll boost will lead to calls for May to stay on to fight the GE - who cares what she said or agreed, she has saved Britain and the Union, shower her with roses and let her govern for ever. I'm a believer in accountability, don't know why but I am - the question is not that she stopped us going over the cliff, the question is why she led us to the edge in the first place.

    I've read here that if the Deal passes May should then resign and let a 'true believer' do future negotiations.

    But which 'true believer' is willing to do the work and take the responsibility, to do the proper preparation and give the necessary attention to detail.
    Michael Gove.
    Its the only name I could think of as well.

    Although there are some here who would disagree.

    But would anyone trust any of the ERG gang to negotiate competently ?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 25,177

    "Greggs vegan sausage roll boosts sales"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47480247

    I always knew that mincing up vegans and turning them into sausage rolls was a good idea.

    Tut tut. You'll never work on the BBC again!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 25,177
    Sean_F said:

    "Far Left groupuscules" - I prefer to think of them as Far Left groupustules. As do Labour MPs.

    Labour MP's still feel vehemently that their Party is still their Party. Their voters are still their voters. It's their membership that is no longer their membership. And a small coterie at the top are happy enough to see that membership include some very rum coves....

    Good point about Labour members but how in tune do you think the Conservative members are with the party leadership and Conservative voters?
    Pretty representative of cutrent Conservative voters.
    How much do rents have to be cut before the Tories have low-rent voters?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 52,472
    edited March 7


    Its the only name I could think of as well.
    Although there are some here who would disagree.
    But would anyone trust any of the ERG gang to negotiate competently ?

    John Redwood has the intelligence to do it. But none of the other attributes.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 5,246


    I've read here that if the Deal passes May should then resign and let a 'true believer' do future negotiations.

    But which 'true believer' is willing to do the work and take the responsibility, to do the proper preparation and give the necessary attention to detail.

    I don't believe that. I think if the WA passes, May will be lauded as the new incarnation of the Blessed Margaret and the ERG, having tasted the public mood of relief and adulation, will come crawling for her forgiveness and mercy.

    All talk of her walking away will disappear like the morning mist on a summer's day and she will bask in the glow of the affection of the Mail, Express, Sun and (apparently) all right-thinking British people everywhere.

  • ChrisChris Posts: 2,935

    "Greggs vegan sausage roll boosts sales"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47480247

    I always knew that mincing up vegans and turning them into sausage rolls was a good idea.

    Careful. There's a test case before an employment tribunal which may result in veganism becoming a protected characteristic under the Equality Act.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46385597
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,609
    Pulpstar said:


    I've read here that if the Deal passes May should then resign and let a 'true believer' do future negotiations.

    But which 'true believer' is willing to do the work and take the responsibility, to do the proper preparation and give the necessary attention to detail.

    Michael Gove.
    ^^^^^ This.

    Needs to be PM or CoTE when we finally move on from the disastrous May/Hammond era of terrible leadership.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 2,935
    edited March 7
    Pulpstar said:


    Its the only name I could think of as well.
    Although there are some here who would disagree.
    But would anyone trust any of the ERG gang to negotiate competently ?

    John Redwood has the intelligence to do it. But none of the other attributes.
    It's funny how some reputations can survive even the most damning counter-evidence.
    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GzBq0n8dxFQ/hqdefault.jpg
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 14,149
    FPT

    https://mobile.twitter.com/HenryNewman/status/1103404253786370059

    It makes a far better case for May's Deal than May or anyone in government is willing or capable of.

    But I find the comparison between the comments there to the the standard PB discussion we have interesting.

    We seem a rather more civilised and thoughtful bunch.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,609
    edited March 7
    Toms said:

    The picture above shows a particularly fancy example of a modern perversion, aka an automobile, the increasing use of which is symptomatic of our doom.

    I can not disagree with one word of this George Monbiot article, 'tho I do find it a bit understated:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/07/cars-killing-us-driving-environment-phase-out

    Of course the same handwringing MPs will bemoan the Honda factory shutting down whilst supporting climate strikes by kids whilst not investing in cycle lanes and taking the cars to work.

    Meanwhile incentives to switch to electric cars are zero.

    Meanwhile a new political party is set up with the sole policy aim of ensuring Irish trucks can barrel across England , chugging out fumes with no benefit to the Uk.

    Paucity of our politicians is the problem.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 8,802
    stodge said:


    I've read here that if the Deal passes May should then resign and let a 'true believer' do future negotiations.

    But which 'true believer' is willing to do the work and take the responsibility, to do the proper preparation and give the necessary attention to detail.

    I don't believe that. I think if the WA passes, May will be lauded as the new incarnation of the Blessed Margaret and the ERG, having tasted the public mood of relief and adulation, will come crawling for her forgiveness and mercy.

    All talk of her walking away will disappear like the morning mist on a summer's day and she will bask in the glow of the affection of the Mail, Express, Sun and (apparently) all right-thinking British people everywhere.

    I think the relevant Conservative MPs suspect that as well, hence the briefings about getting a commitment from her to step down in order to win their vote for the MV (MV3, by the sounds of it).
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 30,432

    "Greggs vegan sausage roll boosts sales"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47480247

    I always knew that mincing up vegans and turning them into sausage rolls was a good idea.

    Vegan? I happen to be a vegetarian :p
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 30,432
    edited March 7
    Pulpstar said:


    I've read here that if the Deal passes May should then resign and let a 'true believer' do future negotiations.

    But which 'true believer' is willing to do the work and take the responsibility, to do the proper preparation and give the necessary attention to detail.

    Michael Gove.
    With apols to Simply Red:

    It's only Gove doing its thing baby
    It's only Gove that you're feeling
    It's only Gove doing its thing baby
    It's only Gove that you're giving
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 14,149
    edited March 7
    FPT
    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:
    Yes, it’s a fair deal.

    Just reinforces my point that many Leavers either haven’t read it or don’t understand it.
    There is a meaningful minority of leavers (cough, Nadine Dorries, cough) who believe that if the EU is willing to agree to it, then it must be bad for the UK.

    The latest one is that Geoffrey Cox has gone to the EU to propose an independent body to verify that treaty obligations (in particular vis-a-vis Ireland and the EU actually attempting to implement a technical solution) are being fulfilled.

    But he's got his legs completely cut out from under him by the ERG demanding that there cannot be EU representation on the body. Wait: if there are 12 members of this body, of which one is from the UK and one from the EU, then that's unacceptable because there's an EU representative???

    It's insane.
    I suspect that for some in the ERG if there ISN'T chaos after Brexit then it hasn't been carried out properly.

    And if nothing much changes initially, business carries on as previously etc then it means that May has conceded too much in the negotiation.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,074
    edited March 7
    I see Mr Bolsonaro has a question for the Twitter Brains Trust.



    Socially Conservative Populists should know their roses better!

    https://www.davidaustinroses.co.uk/golden-showers
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,074

    Pulpstar said:


    I've read here that if the Deal passes May should then resign and let a 'true believer' do future negotiations.

    But which 'true believer' is willing to do the work and take the responsibility, to do the proper preparation and give the necessary attention to detail.

    Michael Gove.
    With apols to Simply Red:

    It's only Gove doing its thing baby
    It's only Gove that you're feeling
    It's only Gove doing its thing baby
    It's only Gove that you're giving
    What's Gove got to do with it?
    Just a second hand politician...
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 14,149

    stodge said:


    I've read here that if the Deal passes May should then resign and let a 'true believer' do future negotiations.

    But which 'true believer' is willing to do the work and take the responsibility, to do the proper preparation and give the necessary attention to detail.

    I don't believe that. I think if the WA passes, May will be lauded as the new incarnation of the Blessed Margaret and the ERG, having tasted the public mood of relief and adulation, will come crawling for her forgiveness and mercy.

    All talk of her walking away will disappear like the morning mist on a summer's day and she will bask in the glow of the affection of the Mail, Express, Sun and (apparently) all right-thinking British people everywhere.

    I think the relevant Conservative MPs suspect that as well, hence the briefings about getting a commitment from her to step down in order to win their vote for the MV (MV3, by the sounds of it).
    But who do they to replace May with ?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 14,827
    Foxy said:

    I see Mr Bolsonaro has a question for the Twitter Brains Trust.



    Socially Conservative Populists should know their roses better!

    https://www.davidaustinroses.co.uk/golden-showers

    #askDonald
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 30,432
    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:


    I've read here that if the Deal passes May should then resign and let a 'true believer' do future negotiations.

    But which 'true believer' is willing to do the work and take the responsibility, to do the proper preparation and give the necessary attention to detail.

    Michael Gove.
    With apols to Simply Red:

    It's only Gove doing its thing baby
    It's only Gove that you're feeling
    It's only Gove doing its thing baby
    It's only Gove that you're giving
    What's Gove got to do with it?
    Just a second hand politician...
    That's the look
    That's the look
    The Look of Gove
  • Paul Waugh @paulwaugh
    1m
    Breaking: EHRC on anti-semitism in Labour: "We believe Labour may have unlawfully discriminated against people because of their ethnicity and religious beliefs." Enforcement powers could be used.

    ---

    All going well.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 8,802
    edited March 7

    stodge said:


    I've read here that if the Deal passes May should then resign and let a 'true believer' do future negotiations.

    But which 'true believer' is willing to do the work and take the responsibility, to do the proper preparation and give the necessary attention to detail.

    I don't believe that. I think if the WA passes, May will be lauded as the new incarnation of the Blessed Margaret and the ERG, having tasted the public mood of relief and adulation, will come crawling for her forgiveness and mercy.

    All talk of her walking away will disappear like the morning mist on a summer's day and she will bask in the glow of the affection of the Mail, Express, Sun and (apparently) all right-thinking British people everywhere.

    I think the relevant Conservative MPs suspect that as well, hence the briefings about getting a commitment from her to step down in order to win their vote for the MV (MV3, by the sounds of it).
    But who do they to replace May with ?
    I don't think they know, which is because I don't think the desire to replace her is that much to do with Brexit either.

    EDIT: plus of course that wing doesn't necessarily have enough votes to get whichever candidate onto the ballot paper anyway.

    And I don't think the membership are blindly going to vote for the "most Brexit" candidate - though there are certain Remainer candidates whom I believe would almost certainly lose regardless of opponent (a la Ken Clarke).
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 30,432
    Foxy said:

    I see Mr Bolsonaro has a question for the Twitter Brains Trust.



    Socially Conservative Populists should know their roses better!

    https://www.davidaustinroses.co.uk/golden-showers

    Honest to god, there's a bush of golden shower roses right outside the loos at Regent's Park (um, the ones outside the Rose Garden section)!
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,609
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8578442/johnny-mercer-call-theresa-may-make-way/

    "A RISING star MP will call on Theresa May and her ageing Government to make way for a new generation of Tories to take over.

    Outspoken Johnny Mercer will issue the direct challenge on the embattled PM by insisting ordinary Brits are “crying out” for fresh leadership to match the fast changing times."
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 816
    edited March 7

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:


    I've read here that if the Deal passes May should then resign and let a 'true believer' do future negotiations.

    But which 'true believer' is willing to do the work and take the responsibility, to do the proper preparation and give the necessary attention to detail.

    Michael Gove.
    With apols to Simply Red:

    It's only Gove doing its thing baby
    It's only Gove that you're feeling
    It's only Gove doing its thing baby
    It's only Gove that you're giving
    What's Gove got to do with it?
    Just a second hand politician...
    That's the look
    That's the look
    The Look of Gove
    Duplicate - deleted
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 816
    edited March 7

    Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:


    I've read here that if the Deal passes May should then resign and let a 'true believer' do future negotiations.

    But which 'true believer' is willing to do the work and take the responsibility, to do the proper preparation and give the necessary attention to detail.

    Michael Gove.
    With apols to Simply Red:

    It's only Gove doing its thing baby
    It's only Gove that you're feeling
    It's only Gove doing its thing baby
    It's only Gove that you're giving
    What's Gove got to do with it?
    Just a second hand politician...
    That's the look
    That's the look
    The Look of Gove
    It's actually a shame he wasn't in charge of negotiating the Withdrawal Agreement, as it's prevented me from saying:

    The Book of Gove is long and boring
    No-one has read the damn thing

    Well, not actually prevented, as such, but it makes considerably less sense.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 30,432
    edited March 7

    stodge said:


    I've read here that if the Deal passes May should then resign and let a 'true believer' do future negotiations.

    But which 'true believer' is willing to do the work and take the responsibility, to do the proper preparation and give the necessary attention to detail.

    I don't believe that. I think if the WA passes, May will be lauded as the new incarnation of the Blessed Margaret and the ERG, having tasted the public mood of relief and adulation, will come crawling for her forgiveness and mercy.

    All talk of her walking away will disappear like the morning mist on a summer's day and she will bask in the glow of the affection of the Mail, Express, Sun and (apparently) all right-thinking British people everywhere.

    I think the relevant Conservative MPs suspect that as well, hence the briefings about getting a commitment from her to step down in order to win their vote for the MV (MV3, by the sounds of it).
    But who do they to replace May with ?
    I don't think they know, which is because I don't think the desire to replace her is that much to do with Brexit either.

    EDIT: plus of course that wing doesn't necessarily have enough votes to get whichever candidate onto the ballot paper anyway.

    And I don't think the membership are blindly going to vote for the "most Brexit" candidate - though there are certain Remainer candidates whom I believe would almost certainly lose regardless of opponent (a la Ken Clarke).
    The Leave victory at EUref may have led to an early "Brexit" for England in Euro2016, but it inspired Wales to reach the semis, and perhaps even more importantly, it inspired Team GB at both the 2016 Olympics and the Paralympics to unparalleled gold medal glory!

    And let's not forget England's semi-final appearance at World Cup 2018!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 30,432
    edited March 7
    .
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 23,828

    Paul Waugh @paulwaugh
    1m
    Breaking: EHRC on anti-semitism in Labour: "We believe Labour may have unlawfully discriminated against people because of their ethnicity and religious beliefs." Enforcement powers could be used.

    ---

    All going well.

    Well, that's potentially a big story.

    If I were the Conservatives, I'd be looking very carefully at the processes they use to ensure they don't suffer similar headlines. However they don't appear to have descended so far into the mire - yet ...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 34,434

    ......



    Edited extra bit: at the time of writing, the tweet cited there is up on the band's Twitter feed.

    They sound like a right bunch of charmers.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 34,434
    The EHRC will now write to the party to give it an opportunity to respond.
    Labour could agree to work voluntarily with the watchdog to come up with an action plan to improve their processes. If the party does not sign up to that, then there could be be a formal investigation.
  • The EHRC will now write to the party to give it an opportunity to respond.
    Labour could agree to work voluntarily with the watchdog to come up with an action plan to improve their processes. If the party does not sign up to that, then there could be be a formal investigation.

    If there are more examples like this, then they're in a world of shit (quoted in The Guardian):|

    Stephane Savary, who stood as a council candidate in Altrincham in Trafford last year, said he was pleased at the outcome. “We definitely want to fight to get the antisemites out of the party,” he said.

    Last year, a Labour member made a 50-minute antisemitic video about him, calling him a “fucking Jew”. He said he reported the video to the Labour party nine times but the party refused to accept the antisemite was a party member until a police investigation proved it.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 3,977
    Cox fiddles while London burns.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 3,525
    Sandpit said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    You'd better believe it's not just Labour and Conservatives where party members have to grapple with these questions, As a Leave-voting anti-second vote LD it's not comfortable for me to see where the party I have supported financially and in other ways for many years has gone. There have been times (the Iraq War and, whisper it quietly, some aspects of the Coalition years) when I have felt proud to be a Lib Dem and knew we were doing something to benefit all the country.

    And yet, there's still that strand that keeps me with Vince for now. I look at the TIG or the Progressives and I genuinely wish them well but I need to know a lot more what they stand for beyond Brexit. Hopefully, as the 11 and others get to know each other and spend time together they realise much more unites them than divides them.

    I see the pro-Deal Henry Newman has put up a cogent and coherent argument as to why it's not such a bad Deal and we should all vote for it. I'm still not entirely convinced but it's a case of sorts - the problem I have is I can see the political consequences of the Deal passing which will be an avalanche of gushing euphoric praise for the Prime Minister and all the missteps and idiocies of the last twenty three and a half months melting like chocolate in front of a good fire.

    The poll boost will lead to calls for May to stay on to fight the GE - who cares what she said or agreed, she has saved Britain and the Union, shower her with roses and let her govern for ever. I'm a believer in accountability, don't know why but I am - the question is not that she stopped us going over the cliff, the question is why she led us to the edge in the first place.

    I've read here that if the Deal passes May should then resign and let a 'true believer' do future negotiations.

    But which 'true believer' is willing to do the work and take the responsibility, to do the proper preparation and give the necessary attention to detail.
    Michael Gove.
    The Steerpike of the tory party.

    If only we'd had a slightly different selection of right wing middle class white men in charge we could have had such a nice Brexit.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 3,977
    edited March 7
    The Hon Member for Batshit-in-the-Marches.


    Serious point: May’s unwillingness to slap down this nonsense is why no Remainer can trust her.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 5,850
    edited March 7
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:


    Michael Gove.

    The Steerpike of the tory party.
    *That* is fucking brilliant.

    And I can imagine Theresa going mad and thinking she's an owl.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 52,472

    The Hon Member for Batshit-in-the-Marches.


    Serious point: May’s unwillingness to slap down this nonsense is why no Remainer can trust her.

    The EU I feel will give us the first extension relatively easily. It's going to be the second that'll be the issue.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 3,525
    eBay Netenyahu is such a porky twat he can't have seen the contents of his codpiece without the aid of a mirror since Nevermind came out.

  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,022
    Whether or not you agree with their politics, this makes a very powerful point:
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 25,196
    Fitting. The chances of a successful renegotiation look as small as a eunuch's prospects.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 25,177

    Paul Waugh @paulwaugh
    1m
    Breaking: EHRC on anti-semitism in Labour: "We believe Labour may have unlawfully discriminated against people because of their ethnicity and religious beliefs." Enforcement powers could be used.

    ---

    All going well.

    Well, that's potentially a big story.

    If I were the Conservatives, I'd be looking very carefully at the processes they use to ensure they don't suffer similar headlines. However they don't appear to have descended so far into the mire - yet ...
    The Tories have a demonstrably working system for dealing with those who are beyond the pale. As they showed a couple of days ago.

    Labour? Not so much....
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 2,884
    Talk your way out of this Corbyn apologists

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47482048
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 3,332
    edited March 7
    Foxy said:

    I see Mr Bolsonaro has a question for the Twitter Brains Trust.



    Socially Conservative Populists should know their roses better!

    https://www.davidaustinroses.co.uk/golden-showers

    Correct, I know my roses better than most.
    We stopped Golden Showers a few years ago, a hangover from the early 1960s, prone to disease and not as good as many newer offerings for density and length of flowering. Try this one, a much better rose, but I have no idea or experience of the other non rose type of a Golden Shower.
    https://www.roses.co.uk/climbing-roses-bare-root/gardeners-gold-bare-root
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 2,884
    It is good, but it should have Corbyn's scruffy mug on it too
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 759
    Pulpstar said:

    The Hon Member for Batshit-in-the-Marches.


    Serious point: May’s unwillingness to slap down this nonsense is why no Remainer can trust her.

    The EU I feel will give us the first extension relatively easily. It's going to be the second that'll be the issue.
    Presumably we all feel the same about the Hon Mem for Batshit in the Marches talking to Poland as we do Dominic Grieve talking to the French?
  • BromBrom Posts: 1,494
    Good to see the EU and Barnier getting a battering on the BBC comments. It does feel like the tide is turning and people realise they are in no way being constructive in these negotiations and are even making Mrs May look flexible.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 25,196

    Pulpstar said:

    The Hon Member for Batshit-in-the-Marches.


    Serious point: May’s unwillingness to slap down this nonsense is why no Remainer can trust her.

    The EU I feel will give us the first extension relatively easily. It's going to be the second that'll be the issue.
    Presumably we all feel the same about the Hon Mem for Batshit in the Marches talking to Poland as we do Dominic Grieve talking to the French?
    There's a bit of a difference between exploring with another country what might be acceptable to them at a time when no consensus has been reached and preparing actively to sabotage the hypothetical settled policy of the United Kingdom.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,728

    Sandpit said:

    I still always laugh at that photo, and what must have been the process behind the scenes that led it to happen. (For those who don't know, it was for a TV comedy show).

    At what point in the process did his handlers think it might be a bad idea, and did they fall for old excuse that the production company had already rented the ermine coat and the Bentley so it would be poor form to cancel it at a late stage?

    I'm not sure they've come around to the bad idea way of thinking quite yet, more at the that went well stage.

    I don't know if older people would react negatively to that kind of thing but the last leg tends to have a younger audience (I assume anyway) or at least one more towards that way of thinking.
    Agreed. I think it worked very well. Sure, it went down poorly with Tories with a sense of humour bypass, but as you imply, play to your audience!
  • GarethoftheVale2GarethoftheVale2 Posts: 1,014

    stodge said:


    I've read here that if the Deal passes May should then resign and let a 'true believer' do future negotiations.

    But which 'true believer' is willing to do the work and take the responsibility, to do the proper preparation and give the necessary attention to detail.

    I don't believe that. I think if the WA passes, May will be lauded as the new incarnation of the Blessed Margaret and the ERG, having tasted the public mood of relief and adulation, will come crawling for her forgiveness and mercy.

    All talk of her walking away will disappear like the morning mist on a summer's day and she will bask in the glow of the affection of the Mail, Express, Sun and (apparently) all right-thinking British people everywhere.

    I think the relevant Conservative MPs suspect that as well, hence the briefings about getting a commitment from her to step down in order to win their vote for the MV (MV3, by the sounds of it).
    But who do they to replace May with ?
    I don't think they know, which is because I don't think the desire to replace her is that much to do with Brexit either.

    EDIT: plus of course that wing doesn't necessarily have enough votes to get whichever candidate onto the ballot paper anyway.

    And I don't think the membership are blindly going to vote for the "most Brexit" candidate - though there are certain Remainer candidates whom I believe would almost certainly lose regardless of opponent (a la Ken Clarke).
    The Leave victory at EUref may have led to an early "Brexit" for England in Euro2016, but it inspired Wales to reach the semis, and perhaps even more importantly, it inspired Team GB at both the 2016 Olympics and the Paralympics to unparalleled gold medal glory!

    And let's not forget England's semi-final appearance at World Cup 2018!
    Regarding the next Con leader, I would divide the contenders into 4 categories:

    Hardline remainers e.g. Greening, Rudd
    Pragmatic remainers e.g. Javed, Hunt
    Pragmatic leavers e.g. Gove, Leadsom
    Hardline leavers e.g. Boris, Raab

    In my view, the MPs will block a hardline leaver and the members will never vote for a hardline remainer sio we are left with the middle 2 categories.

    I think Gove is a good bet.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 2,884
    TGOHF said:

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8578442/johnny-mercer-call-theresa-may-make-way/

    "A RISING star MP will call on Theresa May and her ageing Government to make way for a new generation of Tories to take over.

    Outspoken Johnny Mercer will issue the direct challenge on the embattled PM by insisting ordinary Brits are “crying out” for fresh leadership to match the fast changing times."

    I'd vote for him, assuming I still have a membership card by the time a vote comes. As the Conservatives become more and more UKIP-lite that is less and less likely, and possibly less likely that anyone with a sane moderate view has a chance of becoming leader
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 3,332
    Brom said:

    Good to see the EU and Barnier getting a battering on the BBC comments. It does feel like the tide is turning and people realise they are in no way being constructive in these negotiations and are even making Mrs May look flexible.

    I thought the (to paraphrase)

    'Report back to us within 48 hours with new and acceptable solutions'

    comment that was splashed about yesterday was presented in a way that made the EU look arrogant and inflexible.
    Not what they should be doing if they have any interest in public perception of the EU, even if they are exasperated.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,728

    This rather overstates the horror that most people on the left feel about ex-Communists. Nowadays Communist parties barely exist and few people care whether someone used to support them - it's like previously believing in Santa, as Healey put it. There is little in the abstract concept that left-wingers would disagree with in principle (from each according to ability, to each according to need - the way one personally should try to live and treat one's family and friends, IMO), but we varied in how quickly we noticed that it doesn't work in government. I still find the Morning Star quite useful (and they are nowadays not a mouthpiece for one party but for any old left-wing faction) because they cover issues that few other newspapers care about - oppression of trade unionists around the world, etc.

    People who say they'd support a Labour government but would be highly critical friends and might vote against a particular policy are in principle fine with me (depending on the details). The position is different if someone stands on a Labour platform, gets Labour votes, but says they won't support a Labour government. I think they are deceiving the electorate, the party and themselves, and should quit.

    A clarification: it's like believing in a Santa that has killed millions and not noticeably improved the world in any way. It's like believing in a Santa that is lying in a p*ss-laden gutter, eight cans of Tennants Extra lying by its side.

    Communism matters, because it is an evil system wrapped up in a comfort blanket that is liked by likewise evil people and idiots.
    Nope. That's ludicrous pearl-clutching hyperbole.

    I much prefer (I think) Sir John Major's definition: "It's a noble idea. It just doesn't work."
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 9,502
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 14,827
    Brom said:

    Good to see the EU and Barnier getting a battering on the BBC comments. It does feel like the tide is turning and people realise they are in no way being constructive in these negotiations and are even making Mrs May look flexible.

    The tide is turning? When were btl comments on the BBC & everywhere else not infested by EUSSR loonballs?
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 759

    Pulpstar said:

    The Hon Member for Batshit-in-the-Marches.


    Serious point: May’s unwillingness to slap down this nonsense is why no Remainer can trust her.

    The EU I feel will give us the first extension relatively easily. It's going to be the second that'll be the issue.
    Presumably we all feel the same about the Hon Mem for Batshit in the Marches talking to Poland as we do Dominic Grieve talking to the French?
    There's a bit of a difference between exploring with another country what might be acceptable to them at a time when no consensus has been reached and preparing actively to sabotage the hypothetical settled policy of the United Kingdom.
    Quite. Seeing as some wanted Grieve boiled in oil, I should imagine the good folk of Montford Bridge and Uffington will be agitating for him to be pulled limb-from-limb by a team of wild bears.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 22,042
    Pulpstar said:


    I've read here that if the Deal passes May should then resign and let a 'true believer' do future negotiations.

    But which 'true believer' is willing to do the work and take the responsibility, to do the proper preparation and give the necessary attention to detail.

    Michael Gove.
    For all our sakes hopefully not that lying snake oil salesman
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 14,061
    _Anazina_ said:

    This rather overstates the horror that most people on the left feel about ex-Communists. Nowadays Communist parties barely exist and few people care whether someone used to support them - it's like previously believing in Santa, as Healey put it. There is little in the abstract concept that left-wingers would disagree with in principle (from each according to ability, to each according to need - the way one personally should try to live and treat one's family and friends, IMO), but we varied in how quickly we noticed that it doesn't work in government. I still find the Morning Star quite useful (and they are nowadays not a mouthpiece for one party but for any old left-wing faction) because they cover issues that few other newspapers care about - oppression of trade unionists around the world, etc.

    People who say they'd support a Labour government but would be highly critical friends and might vote against a particular policy are in principle fine with me (depending on the details). The position is different if someone stands on a Labour platform, gets Labour votes, but says they won't support a Labour government. I think they are deceiving the electorate, the party and themselves, and should quit.

    A clarification: it's like believing in a Santa that has killed millions and not noticeably improved the world in any way. It's like believing in a Santa that is lying in a p*ss-laden gutter, eight cans of Tennants Extra lying by its side.

    Communism matters, because it is an evil system wrapped up in a comfort blanket that is liked by likewise evil people and idiots.
    Nope. That's ludicrous pearl-clutching hyperbole.

    I much prefer (I think) Sir John Major's definition: "It's a noble idea. It just doesn't work."
    The problem with Communism is not merely that it does not work. It's that it inevitably - everywhere it has ever been tried - leads to deliberate killing and destruction and the abolition of freedom. And its leaders know this and glory in it. Violence is inherent in it. There is nothing noble about it.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 14,854
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 3,332
    edited March 7
    deleted
This discussion has been closed.