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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What might the Tories learn from Labour

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited March 8 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What might the Tories learn from Labour

The Tories might well look at Labour’s current travails over anti-Semitism and sigh with relief. “At least we’re not as bad as that.” They would be wise not to be so complacent.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 75,321
    Another top thread Ms Cyclefree.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 75,321
    In Corbyn's defence he started an entire meme with the 'I was present....' line.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 18,648
    Third like Boris
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 26,870
    How long would Brexit have to be delayed in order for the UK to take part in the European Election?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 2,935
    Of course, Boris Johnson, coming as he does from a prominent Turkish Muslim family, should be a living advertisement for integration. Being a self-serving and unscrupulous politician, of course it doesn't work like that.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 26,870
    edited March 8
    HYUFD said:
    Have you seen her other recent Tweet quoting George Orwell? It's not exactly designed to build bridges between Remainers and Leavers, to put it mildly.

    Thanks to Cyclefree for the header.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 18,459
    edited March 8
    AndyJS said:

    How long would Brexit have to be delayed in order for the UK to take part in the European Election?

    The elections are at the end of May but the new Parliament doesn't sit until 2nd July. So any delay with a definite end date earlier than 2nd July would be okay I would assume. Anything after that would mean the UK taking part in the elections... again I assume.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 6,595
    HYUFD said:

    None should listen to/nor ever have listened to Gordon Brown
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 2,782
    edited March 8



    I should ignore your ravings but South Ossetia, Crimea, east Ukraine and Transnistria all say hi, not to mention the continuing attempts at destabilising the Baltic states, Poland and Serbia to name but a few. I haven’t even mentioned the Middle East or the repeated poisoning of people on British soil. So crawl back under the rock you came from.

    For every South Ossetia, there is a Northern Ireland. For every Transnistria, there are the Chagos Islands or Cyprus.

    Maybe Russians will just smile at Meeksian hypocrisy. They have had plenty of it.

    The eastern Ukraine and the Crimea are all ethnically majority Russian. They belong to Russia. The Crimea was transferred to the Ukraine in 1954 during de-Stalinisation, despite being overwhelmingly Russian.

    The Ukraine, as presently conceived by the West, is like Yugoslavia.

    The West could not put the house that Tito build back together. It won't be able to hold the Ukraine together.

    I have Russian friends (not as you sourly put it, Putin's idiots) who are frightened to travel to the US because of the prevailing Russo-phobia that bigoted people have caused.

    Once again, if the American electors mistakenly chose Trump, the blame lies with the American people.

    If Remainers don't like it that we voted Leave, the blame lies with the Remain campaign (And what did you do for Remain, other than posture on pb.com?)

    The blame doesn't lie with Russia or Russians.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 26,870

    AndyJS said:

    How long would Brexit have to be delayed in order for the UK to take part in the European Election?

    The elections are at the end of May but the new Parliament doesn't sit until 2nd July. So any delay with a definite end date earlier than 2nd July would be okay I would assume. Anything after that would mean the UK taking part in the elections... again I assume.
    Thanks. I'm guessing plans are being made by local authorities to prepare for holding the elections in case there is a delay beyond that time.
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 759

    AndyJS said:

    How long would Brexit have to be delayed in order for the UK to take part in the European Election?

    The elections are at the end of May but the new Parliament doesn't sit until 2nd July. So any delay with a definite end date earlier than 2nd July would be okay I would assume. Anything after that would mean the UK taking part in the elections... again I assume.
    Which is a PITA but I'd imagine not insurmountable, logistically.

    The bigger consequential issue is that the seats which were ours will literally have people from other nations sitting in them after the reallocation of UK places. I'm not sure how that would be resolved!
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 18,459

    AndyJS said:

    How long would Brexit have to be delayed in order for the UK to take part in the European Election?

    The elections are at the end of May but the new Parliament doesn't sit until 2nd July. So any delay with a definite end date earlier than 2nd July would be okay I would assume. Anything after that would mean the UK taking part in the elections... again I assume.
    Which is a PITA but I'd imagine not insurmountable, logistically.

    The bigger consequential issue is that the seats which were ours will literally have people from other nations sitting in them after the reallocation of UK places. I'm not sure how that would be resolved!
    What does PITA mean? Its not an acronym I have come across before.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 75,321

    AndyJS said:

    How long would Brexit have to be delayed in order for the UK to take part in the European Election?

    The elections are at the end of May but the new Parliament doesn't sit until 2nd July. So any delay with a definite end date earlier than 2nd July would be okay I would assume. Anything after that would mean the UK taking part in the elections... again I assume.
    Which is a PITA but I'd imagine not insurmountable, logistically.

    The bigger consequential issue is that the seats which were ours will literally have people from other nations sitting in them after the reallocation of UK places. I'm not sure how that would be resolved!
    What does PITA mean? Its not an acronym I have come across before.
    Pain in the arse.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 18,459
    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:

    How long would Brexit have to be delayed in order for the UK to take part in the European Election?

    The elections are at the end of May but the new Parliament doesn't sit until 2nd July. So any delay with a definite end date earlier than 2nd July would be okay I would assume. Anything after that would mean the UK taking part in the elections... again I assume.
    Thanks. I'm guessing plans are being made by local authorities to prepare for holding the elections in case there is a delay beyond that time.
    Actually I would be surprised if they are yet. Even at the planning stage that would involve committing money they probably haven't budgeted. And with the local elections currently scheduled for 2nd May it may well cause a lot of problems for them.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 18,459


    AndyJS said:

    How long would Brexit have to be delayed in order for the UK to take part in the European Election?

    The elections are at the end of May but the new Parliament doesn't sit until 2nd July. So any delay with a definite end date earlier than 2nd July would be okay I would assume. Anything after that would mean the UK taking part in the elections... again I assume.
    Which is a PITA but I'd imagine not insurmountable, logistically.

    The bigger consequential issue is that the seats which were ours will literally have people from other nations sitting in them after the reallocation of UK places. I'm not sure how that would be resolved!
    What does PITA mean? Its not an acronym I have come across before.
    Pain in the arse.
    Ah thanks. Assuming that was an explanation not an accusation :)
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    edited March 8
    You do post bollocks sometimes ,the real backlash of minorities are the white minorities in majority asian/ black areas.

    I have experienced it with my family and friends but we keep getting told white- flight isn't happening.

    Another white middle-class idiot without a clue.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,750
    FPT:
    Mr. kle4, a London Grand Prix is a ridiculous idea.

    Why the fools think endlessly adding city circuits is smart is beyond me. The racing's far worse (ok, Azerbaijan is so badly designed it's comedically amusing) and they're now hiding coverage of fewer good races behind a pay wall. It's dumb.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,781
    This is a good header. A problem is always easier to sort out, when it gets nipped in the bud.

    FPT Amber Rudd, I agree that it is good manners to address people in the way the way they wish to be addressed, but it's also good manners to take a comment in the spirit in which it is meant. Rudd was offering support to Abbottt, not disrespecting her.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 3,525


    I have Russian friends (not as you sourly put it, Putin's idiots) who are frightened to travel to the US because of the prevailing Russo-phobia that bigoted people have caused.

    They are fucking idiots if not Putin's then as they have completely swallowed Putin's propaganda about how everywhere is a dysfunctional shit hole except the Rodina. Russian language media relentlessly exaggerates and sometimes fabricates the dangers faced by Russians abroad. This campaign is designed to stop Russians having any ideas about leaving the failing and decaying chirocracy and thus worsening its already appalling demographics.
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 759


    AndyJS said:

    How long would Brexit have to be delayed in order for the UK to take part in the European Election?

    The elections are at the end of May but the new Parliament doesn't sit until 2nd July. So any delay with a definite end date earlier than 2nd July would be okay I would assume. Anything after that would mean the UK taking part in the elections... again I assume.
    Which is a PITA but I'd imagine not insurmountable, logistically.

    The bigger consequential issue is that the seats which were ours will literally have people from other nations sitting in them after the reallocation of UK places. I'm not sure how that would be resolved!
    What does PITA mean? Its not an acronym I have come across before.
    Pain in the arse.
    Ah thanks. Assuming that was an explanation not an accusation :)
    Mais bien sur :)
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 11,584
    Cyclefree's OP can be read alongside the last one, because we know that trolls and bots, some no doubt at the instigation of the Kremlin, are stirring up antisemitism, islamophobia and discord in general.

    Facebook has just removed another such network
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/mar/07/facebook-fake-account-network-spread-hate-speech

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 3,977



    I should ignore your ravings but South Ossetia, Crimea, east Ukraine and Transnistria all say hi, not to mention the continuing attempts at destabilising the Baltic states, Poland and Serbia to name but a few. I haven’t even mentioned the Middle East or the repeated poisoning of people on British soil. So crawl back under the rock you came from.

    For every South Ossetia, there is a Northern Ireland. For every Transnistria, there are the Chagos Islands or Cyprus.

    Maybe Russians will just smile at Meeksian hypocrisy. They have had plenty of it.

    The eastern Ukraine and the Crimea are all ethnically majority Russian. They belong to Russia. The Crimea was transferred to the Ukraine in 1954 during de-Stalinisation, despite being overwhelmingly Russian.

    The Ukraine, as presently conceived by the West, is like Yugoslavia.

    The West could not put the house that Tito build back together. It won't be able to hold the Ukraine together.

    I have Russian friends (not as you sourly put it, Putin's idiots) who are frightened to travel to the US because of the prevailing Russo-phobia that bigoted people have caused.

    Once again, if the American electors mistakenly chose Trump, the blame lies with the American people.

    If Remainers don't like it that we voted Leave, the blame lies with the Remain campaign (And what did you do for Remain, other than posture on pb.com?)

    It doesn't like with Russia or Russians.
    Simply amazing stuff.
    The U.K. is on a par with the Russian regime.

    There’s an important strand of Brexitism which is has a pretty dark world view.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 19,459
    edited March 8
    Sean_F said:

    This is a good header. A problem is always easier to sort out, when it gets nipped in the bud.

    FPT Amber Rudd, I agree that it is good manners to address people in the way the way they wish to be addressed, but it's also good manners to take a comment in the spirit in which it is meant. Rudd was offering support to Abbottt, not disrespecting her.

    Mr F in the course of buiness I have oftern heard my sides lawyers call the other sides lawyers incompetent pricks. Is this how I should now address people on the legal fraternity so as not to disrespect them ? :-)

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 56,065
    edited March 8

    You do post bollocks sometimes ,the real backlash of minorities are the white minorities in majority asian/ black areas.

    I have experienced it with my family and friends but we keep getting told white- flight isn't happening.

    Another white middle-class idiot without a clue.

    Anyone who has seen much of the East London white population move to Essex and the South London white population move to Kent knows that 'white-flight' is real, as London has become more Labour Essex and Kent have become more Tory
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 19,459



    I should ignore your ravings but South Ossetia, Crimea, east Ukraine and Transnistria all say hi, not to mention the continuing attempts at destabilising the Baltic states, Poland and Serbia to name but a few. I haven’t even mentioned the Middle East or the repeated poisoning of people on British soil. So crawl back under the rock you came from.

    For every South Ossetia, there is a Northern Ireland. For every Transnistria, there are the Chagos Islands or Cyprus.

    Maybe Russians will just smile at Meeksian hypocrisy. They have had plenty of it.

    The eastern Ukraine and the Crimea are all ethnically majority Russian. They belong to Russia. The Crimea was transferred to the Ukraine in 1954 during de-Stalinisation, despite being overwhelmingly Russian.

    The Ukraine, as presently conceived by the West, is like Yugoslavia.

    The West could not put the house that Tito build back together. It won't be able to hold the Ukraine together.

    I have Russian friends (not as you sourly put it, Putin's idiots) who are frightened to travel to the US because of the prevailing Russo-phobia that bigoted people have caused.

    Once again, if the American electors mistakenly chose Trump, the blame lies with the American people.

    If Remainers don't like it that we voted Leave, the blame lies with the Remain campaign (And what did you do for Remain, other than posture on pb.com?)

    It doesn't like with Russia or Russians.
    Simply amazing stuff.
    The U.K. is on a par with the Russian regime.

    There’s an important strand of Brexitism which is has a pretty dark world view.
    lol

    given some of the things youve called the UK and its inhabitants over the last two years, thats quite amusing
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 5,154
    The thread header doesn't mention the London mayoral campaign which seems quite an omission.

    From a narrow PR perspective, it's hard to see why the Tories should be looking to learn from Labour. Labour's PR on the antisemitism issue has been a complete disaster. The Tories meanwhile have largely avoided bad headlines.

    An independent investigation into the Tory party is going to find plenty of problems. It will be mistrusted from the start, and any penalties/actions seen through the prism of Remainer vs. Leaver.
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 392
    Sean_F said:

    This is a good header. A problem is always easier to sort out, when it gets nipped in the bud.

    FPT Amber Rudd, I agree that it is good manners to address people in the way the way they wish to be addressed, but it's also good manners to take a comment in the spirit in which it is meant. Rudd was offering support to Abbottt, not disrespecting her.

    I was pleased to hear John Barnes talking some sense re Rudd
    https://t.co/4CK3MC0qkE
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 23,828
    An excellent thread. Thanks, Ms Free.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 23,828

    Cyclefree's OP can be read alongside the last one, because we know that trolls and bots, some no doubt at the instigation of the Kremlin, are stirring up antisemitism, islamophobia and discord in general.

    Facebook has just removed another such network
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/mar/07/facebook-fake-account-network-spread-hate-speech

    Unfortunately, when it comes to anti-Semitism Labour's leadership and its followers are doing its job for it...
  • kingbongokingbongo Posts: 220



    I should ignore your ravings but South Ossetia, Crimea, east Ukraine and Transnistria all say hi

    For every South Ossetia, there is a Northern Ireland. For every Transnistria, there are the Chagos Islands or Cyprus.

    Maybe Russians will just smile at Meeksian hypocrisy. They have had plenty of it.

    The eastern Ukraine and the Crimea are all ethnically majority Russian. They belong to Russia. The Crimea was transferred to the Ukraine in 1954 during de-Stalinisation, despite being overwhelmingly Russian.

    The Ukraine, as presently conceived by the West, is like Yugoslavia.

    The West could not put the house that Tito build back together. It won't be able to hold the Ukraine together.

    I have Russian friends (not as you sourly put it, Putin's idiots) who are frightened to travel to the US because of the prevailing Russo-phobia that bigoted people have caused.

    Once again, if the American electors mistakenly chose Trump, the blame lies with the American people.

    If Remainers don't like it that we voted Leave, the blame lies with the Remain campaign (And what did you do for Remain, other than posture on pb.com?)

    The blame doesn't lie with Russia or Russians.
    Hmm - you clearly don't know much about Ukraine: Of course I'm only married to a Russian speaking Odessian with family and friends all across Eastern Ukraine so not an expert - but one thing almost all Ukrainians agree on is that just because you don't like the Kiev government doesn't mean you are longing for Putin or want your countrymen being shot and blown up by the country next door. You don't seem to understand either the status the DNR and LNR claim for themselves - they don't want to lose their gangster profits by becoming part of Russia, they still claim allegiance to Ukraine. As for your comments about the US, that's nothing more than a comment straight out of the Russian Foreign Service playbook.

    You are hunchman and I claim my 5 quid
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 29,650
    Good article. Thanks Cyclefree.

    Labour anti-Semitism has become institutionalised because those who run Labour are anti-Semitic. It has been a top down exercise, which has attracted anti-Semites to the party. The real lesson that Labour can teach is do not put racists in charge.

    I don't think Mrs May is a racist. But she is undoubtedly a xenophobe. Johnson gives every impression of being a racist. Many other Tories seem to believe the way to get on is to pander to the worst instincts of their party's right-wing members.

    It's all a bloody mess.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 18,459

    You do post bollocks sometimes ,the real backlash of minorities are the white minorities in majority asian/ black areas.

    I have experienced it with my family and friends but we keep getting told white- flight isn't happening.

    Another white middle-class idiot without a clue.

    Just because one form of racism exists doesn't mean another does not. Just because you have experienced anti-white prejudice in no way negates what Cyclefree is saying.

    I do think there is a problem with accusations of racism sometimes being used to close down genuine debate but again that in no way undermines what is being said in this piece.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 29,650
    HYUFD said:

    You do post bollocks sometimes ,the real backlash of minorities are the white minorities in majority asian/ black areas.

    I have experienced it with my family and friends but we keep getting told white- flight isn't happening.

    Another white middle-class idiot without a clue.

    Anyone who has seen much of the East London white population move to Essex and the South London white population move to Kent knows that 'white-flight' is real, as London has become more Labour Essex and Kent have become more Tory

    Are they fleeing immigrants or moving to nicer parts of the world? Was it white flight when hundreds of thousands located to new towns before mass immigration existed?

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 498



    I should ignore your ravings but South Ossetia, Crimea, east Ukraine and Transnistria all say hi, not to mention the continuing attempts at destabilising the Baltic states, Poland and Serbia to name but a few. I haven’t even mentioned the Middle East or the repeated poisoning of people on British soil. So crawl back under the rock you came from.

    For every South Ossetia, there is a Northern Ireland. For every Transnistria, there are the Chagos Islands or Cyprus.

    Maybe Russians will just smile at Meeksian hypocrisy. They have had plenty of it.

    The eastern Ukraine and the Crimea are all ethnically majority Russian. They belong to Russia. The Crimea was transferred to the Ukraine in 1954 during de-Stalinisation, despite being overwhelmingly Russian.

    The Ukraine, as presently conceived by the West, is like Yugoslavia.

    The West could not put the house that Tito build back together. It won't be able to hold the Ukraine together.

    I have Russian friends (not as you sourly put it, Putin's idiots) who are frightened to travel to the US because of the prevailing Russo-phobia that bigoted people have caused.

    Once again, if the American electors mistakenly chose Trump, the blame lies with the American people.

    If Remainers don't like it that we voted Leave, the blame lies with the Remain campaign (And what did you do for Remain, other than posture on pb.com?)

    The blame doesn't lie with Russia or Russians.

    Remain had 45 years to build a popular consensus behind a great project, supported by every government and parliament since the 1970s and every significant political party at virtually all times (losing and hopeless Labour manifestos in the 1980s excepted). To this day it commands a majority in both houses of Parliament. Remainers seem to have no idea how monumental and cataclysmic its political failure to do so is. The Russians are a diversion from this central issue.

  • nico67nico67 Posts: 1,771
    I see the last desperate attempt by May is to blame the EU for a deal she signed , a backstop she wanted and her red lines which meant a backstop was needed .
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 759

    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:

    How long would Brexit have to be delayed in order for the UK to take part in the European Election?

    The elections are at the end of May but the new Parliament doesn't sit until 2nd July. So any delay with a definite end date earlier than 2nd July would be okay I would assume. Anything after that would mean the UK taking part in the elections... again I assume.
    Thanks. I'm guessing plans are being made by local authorities to prepare for holding the elections in case there is a delay beyond that time.
    Actually I would be surprised if they are yet. Even at the planning stage that would involve committing money they probably haven't budgeted. And with the local elections currently scheduled for 2nd May it may well cause a lot of problems for them.
    The 2014 timetable, for an EU election on the equivalent weekend, is here:

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/word_doc/0019/163018/EPE-election-timetable-standalone.doc

    Of course, you'd need some lead time even up to the first dates on there, but it's probably doable - certainly if we got dispensation to poll a month later or something.

    My guess is that the government won't have let any formal guidance go out to LAs. But if I was a clued-up returning officer, I might have picked up the phone to the Electoral Commission to chew the cud over what might happen in various scenarios.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 2,782
    Dura_Ace said:


    I have Russian friends (not as you sourly put it, Putin's idiots) who are frightened to travel to the US because of the prevailing Russo-phobia that bigoted people have caused.

    They are fucking idiots if not Putin's then as they have completely swallowed Putin's propaganda about how everywhere is a dysfunctional shit hole except the Rodina. Russian language media relentlessly exaggerates and sometimes fabricates the dangers faced by Russians abroad. This campaign is designed to stop Russians having any ideas about leaving the failing and decaying chirocracy and thus worsening its already appalling demographics.
    They are actually distinguished University professors, but I'll pass on your observation that they're fucking idiots to them.

    Like, who is best placed to judge whether Russians feel uncomfortable travelling in the neo-McCarthyist US ?

    Russians or ... err, Dura Ace
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,609

    Good article. Thanks Cyclefree.

    Labour anti-Semitism has become institutionalised because those who run Labour are anti-Semitic. It has been a top down exercise, which has attracted anti-Semites to the party. The real lesson that Labour can teach is do not put racists in charge.

    Yes - in Labour the rot is at the head. In Conservatives it's at the tail.

    Of course the Labour fish is shrinking fast - soon there will only be a rotten head left.


  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 816
    rkrkrk said:

    The thread header doesn't mention the London mayoral campaign which seems quite an omission.

    From a narrow PR perspective, it's hard to see why the Tories should be looking to learn from Labour. Labour's PR on the antisemitism issue has been a complete disaster. The Tories meanwhile have largely avoided bad headlines.

    An independent investigation into the Tory party is going to find plenty of problems. It will be mistrusted from the start, and any penalties/actions seen through the prism of Remainer vs. Leaver.

    You just wait and see what the Labour membership start throwing at the Tory candidate during the next London Mayoral election...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 25,177
    algarkirk said:



    I should ignore your ravings but South Ossetia, Crimea, east Ukraine and Transnistria all say hi, not to mention the continuing attempts at destabilising the Baltic states, Poland and Serbia to name but a few. I haven’t even mentioned the Middle East or the repeated poisoning of people on British soil. So crawl back under the rock you came from.

    For every South Ossetia, there is a Northern Ireland. For every Transnistria, there are the Chagos Islands or Cyprus.

    Maybe Russians will just smile at Meeksian hypocrisy. They have had plenty of it.

    The eastern Ukraine and the Crimea are all ethnically majority Russian. They belong to Russia. The Crimea was transferred to the Ukraine in 1954 during de-Stalinisation, despite being overwhelmingly Russian.

    The Ukraine, as presently conceived by the West, is like Yugoslavia.

    The West could not put the house that Tito build back together. It won't be able to hold the Ukraine together.

    I have Russian friends (not as you sourly put it, Putin's idiots) who are frightened to travel to the US because of the prevailing Russo-phobia that bigoted people have caused.

    Once again, if the American electors mistakenly chose Trump, the blame lies with the American people.

    If Remainers don't like it that we voted Leave, the blame lies with the Remain campaign (And what did you do for Remain, other than posture on pb.com?)

    The blame doesn't lie with Russia or Russians.

    Remain had 45 years to build a popular consensus behind a great project, supported by every government and parliament since the 1970s and every significant political party at virtually all times (losing and hopeless Labour manifestos in the 1980s excepted). To this day it commands a majority in both houses of Parliament. Remainers seem to have no idea how monumental and cataclysmic its political failure to do so is. The Russians are a diversion from this central issue.

    +1
  • stodgestodge Posts: 5,246
    HYUFD said:


    Anyone who has seen much of the East London white population move to Essex and the South London white population move to Kent knows that 'white-flight' is real, as London has become more Labour Essex and Kent have become more Tory

    First, East Ham hasn't been Conservative since 1923 so I imagine it was solid Labour even if it was predominantly white. As others have observed, people come in, work, make money and move to the suburbs or beyond - it happens in every city, in every nation from Lake Geneva to the Finland Station (!).

    I can't remember Sevenoaks or Tunbridge Wells ever voting Labour though I do think Labour have had local areas of strength in both areas and don't forget the Kent coalfields when they existed.

    Second, and more serious point, the 2021 Census will be hugely enlightening - I think as areas of London improve there is a return of white British (especially young) to these areas. The ripples of Stratford's redevelopment have started to reach other parts of Newham and new developments such as Barking Riverside and Bow may encourage more younger aspiring individuals, couples and families to come back to the inner urban areas.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 2,782



    Hmm - you clearly don't know much about Ukraine: Of course I'm only married to a Russian speaking Odessian with family and friends all across Eastern Ukraine so not an expert - but one thing almost all Ukrainians agree on is that just because you don't like the Kiev government doesn't mean you are longing for Putin or want your countrymen being shot and blown up by the country next door. You don't seem to understand either the status the DNR and LNR claim for themselves - they don't want to lose their gangster profits by becoming part of Russia, they still claim allegiance to Ukraine. As for your comments about the US, that's nothing more than a comment straight out of the Russian Foreign Service playbook.

    You are hunchman and I claim my 5 quid

    A plebiscite in Crimea would demonstrate that the territory is Russian.

    That doesn't mean the residents of the Crimea long for Putin (I never said that). I said that the territory is ethnically overwhelmingly Russian. It joined the Ukraine at the whim of a Soviet era politician.

    You lose you 5 quid, because I am not hunchman. (In fact, my partner is also an Odessian).

    Once again, my main point is that the responsibility for Trump lies with the AMERICANS. the responsibility for Brexit lies with the BRITISH.

    It is racist scapegoating to blame the Russians.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,781

    Sean_F said:

    This is a good header. A problem is always easier to sort out, when it gets nipped in the bud.

    FPT Amber Rudd, I agree that it is good manners to address people in the way the way they wish to be addressed, but it's also good manners to take a comment in the spirit in which it is meant. Rudd was offering support to Abbottt, not disrespecting her.

    Mr F in the course of buiness I have oftern heard my sides lawyers call the other sides lawyers incompetent pricks. Is this how I should now address people on the legal fraternity so as not to disrespect them ? :-)

    It's more common to use polite insults.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,781
    rkrkrk said:

    The thread header doesn't mention the London mayoral campaign which seems quite an omission.

    From a narrow PR perspective, it's hard to see why the Tories should be looking to learn from Labour. Labour's PR on the antisemitism issue has been a complete disaster. The Tories meanwhile have largely avoided bad headlines.

    An independent investigation into the Tory party is going to find plenty of problems. It will be mistrusted from the start, and any penalties/actions seen through the prism of Remainer vs. Leaver.

    One should at least learn what not to do.
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 759

    HYUFD said:

    You do post bollocks sometimes ,the real backlash of minorities are the white minorities in majority asian/ black areas.

    I have experienced it with my family and friends but we keep getting told white- flight isn't happening.

    Another white middle-class idiot without a clue.

    Anyone who has seen much of the East London white population move to Essex and the South London white population move to Kent knows that 'white-flight' is real, as London has become more Labour Essex and Kent have become more Tory

    Are they fleeing immigrants or moving to nicer parts of the world? Was it white flight when hundreds of thousands located to new towns before mass immigration existed?

    Quite. Surely a sign of the growing middle class? I have a family in mind who've scattered across East Anglia since the 70s, are from a WWC background where moaning about immigrants certainly wouldn't have been frowned upon, and I've never suspected, even less heard it stated, that immigration was a reason. I suppose "nicer area" may be a proxy for such unspoken thoughts, but I think it's far broader.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,039

    HYUFD said:

    You do post bollocks sometimes ,the real backlash of minorities are the white minorities in majority asian/ black areas.

    I have experienced it with my family and friends but we keep getting told white- flight isn't happening.

    Another white middle-class idiot without a clue.

    Anyone who has seen much of the East London white population move to Essex and the South London white population move to Kent knows that 'white-flight' is real, as London has become more Labour Essex and Kent have become more Tory

    Are they fleeing immigrants or moving to nicer parts of the world? Was it white flight when hundreds of thousands located to new towns before mass immigration existed?

    Exactly.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,781
    Endillion said:

    rkrkrk said:

    The thread header doesn't mention the London mayoral campaign which seems quite an omission.

    From a narrow PR perspective, it's hard to see why the Tories should be looking to learn from Labour. Labour's PR on the antisemitism issue has been a complete disaster. The Tories meanwhile have largely avoided bad headlines.

    An independent investigation into the Tory party is going to find plenty of problems. It will be mistrusted from the start, and any penalties/actions seen through the prism of Remainer vs. Leaver.

    You just wait and see what the Labour membership start throwing at the Tory candidate during the next London Mayoral election...
    I expect that the expressions "coconut" and "Uncle Tom" will be heard at some point.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 9,074


    Dura_Ace said:


    I have Russian friends (not as you sourly put it, Putin's idiots) who are frightened to travel to the US because of the prevailing Russo-phobia that bigoted people have caused.

    They are fucking idiots if not Putin's then as they have completely swallowed Putin's propaganda about how everywhere is a dysfunctional shit hole except the Rodina. Russian language media relentlessly exaggerates and sometimes fabricates the dangers faced by Russians abroad. This campaign is designed to stop Russians having any ideas about leaving the failing and decaying chirocracy and thus worsening its already appalling demographics.
    They are actually distinguished University professors, but I'll pass on your observation that they're fucking idiots to them.

    Like, who is best placed to judge whether Russians feel uncomfortable travelling in the neo-McCarthyist US ?

    Russians or ... err, Dura Ace
    Quite obviously Russians are not afraid of travelling in the UK or USA.

    Just 12 months ago a couple of ordinary Russians did a 2 day trip to Salisbury to see the Cathedral spire, and were completely unmolested. I believe there was some difficulty with snow, but not from the local people.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 22,172
    edited March 8

    FPT:
    Mr. kle4, a London Grand Prix is a ridiculous idea.

    Why the fools think endlessly adding city circuits is smart is beyond me. The racing's far worse (ok, Azerbaijan is so badly designed it's comedically amusing) and they're now hiding coverage of fewer good races behind a pay wall. It's dumb.

    This quite amazing (if annoyingly jittery) video just got posted to Youtube. Lewis Hamilton onboard for the whole race at Silverstone last year, after he got taken out on the first lap and recovered from last to second place. Fascinating especially to listen to the team radio.
    youtube.com/watch?v=_oW0Pa7laAU

    The British GP will almost certainly happen at Silverstone. It's in everyone's interest for it to happen, and the sides will eventually come to an agreement. Silverstone is pretty much unique in the F1 calendar for running the event on a purely commercial basis with no government support.

    The London GP will be a complete non-starter due to the disruption caused and the evironmental lobby.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,609
    Endillion said:

    rkrkrk said:

    The thread header doesn't mention the London mayoral campaign which seems quite an omission.

    From a narrow PR perspective, it's hard to see why the Tories should be looking to learn from Labour. Labour's PR on the antisemitism issue has been a complete disaster. The Tories meanwhile have largely avoided bad headlines.

    An independent investigation into the Tory party is going to find plenty of problems. It will be mistrusted from the start, and any penalties/actions seen through the prism of Remainer vs. Leaver.

    You just wait and see what the Labour membership start throwing at the Tory candidate during the next London Mayoral election...
    Cons should have selected a lesbian Jewish woman - for maximum Labour implosion.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 14,827
    Sean_F said:

    Endillion said:

    rkrkrk said:

    The thread header doesn't mention the London mayoral campaign which seems quite an omission.

    From a narrow PR perspective, it's hard to see why the Tories should be looking to learn from Labour. Labour's PR on the antisemitism issue has been a complete disaster. The Tories meanwhile have largely avoided bad headlines.

    An independent investigation into the Tory party is going to find plenty of problems. It will be mistrusted from the start, and any penalties/actions seen through the prism of Remainer vs. Leaver.

    You just wait and see what the Labour membership start throwing at the Tory candidate during the next London Mayoral election...
    I expect that the expressions "coconut" and "Uncle Tom" will be heard at some point.
    Maybe, but I think 'a bit rubbish' will the overwhelming favourite.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 18,648
    Pick someone sensible and moderate is the answer to the question posed by the lead.

    Which is of course the last thing that Tory members are wanting to do.

    Hence the MPs will do their best to force the choice themselves.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 14,061
    rkrkrk said:

    The thread header doesn't mention the London mayoral campaign which seems quite an omission.

    From a narrow PR perspective, it's hard to see why the Tories should be looking to learn from Labour. Labour's PR on the antisemitism issue has been a complete disaster. The Tories meanwhile have largely avoided bad headlines.

    An independent investigation into the Tory party is going to find plenty of problems. It will be mistrusted from the start, and any penalties/actions seen through the prism of Remainer vs. Leaver.

    If I had listed all the examples that are out there the header, quite long enough, would have become unwieldy. Yes - that campaign was a real low by the Tories. Hence the need for the action I am suggesting.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 52,472
    TGOHF said:

    Endillion said:

    rkrkrk said:

    The thread header doesn't mention the London mayoral campaign which seems quite an omission.

    From a narrow PR perspective, it's hard to see why the Tories should be looking to learn from Labour. Labour's PR on the antisemitism issue has been a complete disaster. The Tories meanwhile have largely avoided bad headlines.

    An independent investigation into the Tory party is going to find plenty of problems. It will be mistrusted from the start, and any penalties/actions seen through the prism of Remainer vs. Leaver.

    You just wait and see what the Labour membership start throwing at the Tory candidate during the next London Mayoral election...
    Cons should have selected a lesbian Jewish woman - for maximum Labour implosion.
    They've picked Shaun Bailey, which makes Khan's retention of his job trivial.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 26,870
    HYUFD said:

    You do post bollocks sometimes ,the real backlash of minorities are the white minorities in majority asian/ black areas.

    I have experienced it with my family and friends but we keep getting told white- flight isn't happening.

    Another white middle-class idiot without a clue.

    Anyone who has seen much of the East London white population move to Essex and the South London white population move to Kent knows that 'white-flight' is real, as London has become more Labour Essex and Kent have become more Tory
    The census data shows it's real. Barking and Dagenham for instance was 95% white British 25 years ago, now it's about 35 to 40%.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 18,172
    edited March 8
    algarkirk said:



    I should ignore your ravings but South Ossetia, Crimea, east Ukraine and Transnistria all say hi, not to mention the continuing attempts at destabilising the Baltic states, Poland and Serbia to name but a few. I haven’t even mentioned the Middle East or the repeated poisoning of people on British soil. So crawl back under the rock you came from.

    For every South Ossetia, there is a Northern Ireland. For every Transnistria, there are the Chagos Islands or Cyprus.

    Maybe Russians will just smile at Meeksian hypocrisy. They have had plenty of it.

    The eastern Ukraine and the Crimea are all ethnically majority Russian. They belong to Russia. The Crimea was transferred to the Ukraine in 1954 during de-Stalinisation, despite being overwhelmingly Russian.

    The Ukraine, as presently conceived by the West, is like Yugoslavia.

    The West could not put the house that Tito build back together. It won't be able to hold the Ukraine together.

    I have Russian friends (not as you sourly put it, Putin's idiots) who are frightened to travel to the US because of the prevailing Russo-phobia that bigoted people have caused.

    Once again, if the American electors mistakenly chose Trump, the blame lies with the American people.

    If Remainers don't like it that we voted Leave, the blame lies with the Remain campaign (And what did you do for Remain, other than posture on pb.com?)

    The blame doesn't lie with Russia or Russians.

    Remain had 45 years to build a popular consensus behind a great project, supported by every government and parliament since the 1970s and every significant political party at virtually all times (losing and hopeless Labour manifestos in the 1980s excepted). To this day it commands a majority in both houses of Parliament. Remainers seem to have no idea how monumental and cataclysmic its political failure to do so is. The Russians are a diversion from this central issue.

    Nah. You and your fellow Leaver travellers misunderstood what the EU was supposed to be about, or the UK's relation to it. It was always a club which made things better for the UK in very many respects. Did it put a brand spanking new Range Rover Evoque on every driveway? No. Did it want to move to ever closer union? Yes but the UK got an opt out of that bit. It was an on balance better thing to be a part of than not. And now that we are going to leave we will on balance be worse off than we would have been.

    So there was no crash bang wallop slam dunk for the Remain campaign - you would have been pushed to find anyone who didn't acknowledge the EU's failings. But on the whole we did very well out of our membership.

    Which leaves you with sovereignty article which, as #FBPE Anna Soubry David Davis correctly identified, we always were.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 26,870

    Good article. Thanks Cyclefree.

    Labour anti-Semitism has become institutionalised because those who run Labour are anti-Semitic. It has been a top down exercise, which has attracted anti-Semites to the party. The real lesson that Labour can teach is do not put racists in charge.

    I don't think Mrs May is a racist. But she is undoubtedly a xenophobe. Johnson gives every impression of being a racist. Many other Tories seem to believe the way to get on is to pander to the worst instincts of their party's right-wing members.

    It's all a bloody mess.

    Why is Theresa May a xenophobe?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 20,218
    TOPPING said:

    Nah. You and your fellow Leaver travellers misunderstood what the EU was supposed to be about, or the UK's relation to it. It was always a club which made things better for the UK in very many respects. Did it put a brand spanking new Range Rover Evoque on every driveway? No. Did it want to move to ever closer union? Yes but the UK got an opt out of that bit. It was an on balance better thing to be a part of than not. And now that we are going to leave we will on balance be worse off than we would have been. So there was no crash bang wallop slam dunk for the Remain campaign - you would have been pushed to find anyone who didn't acknowledge the EU's failings. But on the whole we did very well out of our membership.

    Which leaves you with sovereignty article which, as #FBPE Anna Soubry David Davis correctly identified, we always were.

    We were only sovereign in the theoretical sense that we could choose to leave. Which we did.

    Under the backstop which you are so 100% adamant we must sign and that there is no alternative we lose even that shred of theoretical sovereignty. We won't be able to choose to leave anymore.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 1,771
    edited March 8
    Some rumours that May will pull the no deal and extension votes and just ask for one herself after she likely loses the meaningful vote .

    This way she avoids having to whip for or against and avoids some drama it also means she doesn’t have to vote.

    It does make more sense , it still comes with risks but would seem the least worst option.

    Although May has never looked like resigning herself one wonders whether she could stomach the humiliation of being forced to adopt different negotiations around a softer Brexit.

    A long shot might be she says she’s going to resign , but a new leader needs time to reset the negotiations so before doing that she asks the EU for a longer extension . The ERG knowing they’ll get a hard Brexiter in charge might accept that .

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 14,827
    edited March 8
    TGOHF said:

    Endillion said:

    rkrkrk said:

    The thread header doesn't mention the London mayoral campaign which seems quite an omission.

    From a narrow PR perspective, it's hard to see why the Tories should be looking to learn from Labour. Labour's PR on the antisemitism issue has been a complete disaster. The Tories meanwhile have largely avoided bad headlines.

    An independent investigation into the Tory party is going to find plenty of problems. It will be mistrusted from the start, and any penalties/actions seen through the prism of Remainer vs. Leaver.

    You just wait and see what the Labour membership start throwing at the Tory candidate during the next London Mayoral election...
    Cons should have selected a lesbian Jewish woman - for maximum Labour implosion.
    Poor, old Tories, always one reaction behind. They fcuked up with milky white Zac & his 'brown men are terrorists' schtick so lurched towards a mediocre black candidate to prove they aren't really like that. Now it's all about the AS.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 20,218
    AndyJS said:

    Good article. Thanks Cyclefree.

    Labour anti-Semitism has become institutionalised because those who run Labour are anti-Semitic. It has been a top down exercise, which has attracted anti-Semites to the party. The real lesson that Labour can teach is do not put racists in charge.

    I don't think Mrs May is a racist. But she is undoubtedly a xenophobe. Johnson gives every impression of being a racist. Many other Tories seem to believe the way to get on is to pander to the worst instincts of their party's right-wing members.

    It's all a bloody mess.

    Why is Theresa May a xenophobe?
    Why is the Pope Catholic?

    I don't know why May is a xenophobe, I just regret we have a xenophobe as PM.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 2,883
    Cyclefree said:

    rkrkrk said:

    The thread header doesn't mention the London mayoral campaign which seems quite an omission.

    From a narrow PR perspective, it's hard to see why the Tories should be looking to learn from Labour. Labour's PR on the antisemitism issue has been a complete disaster. The Tories meanwhile have largely avoided bad headlines.

    An independent investigation into the Tory party is going to find plenty of problems. It will be mistrusted from the start, and any penalties/actions seen through the prism of Remainer vs. Leaver.

    If I had listed all the examples that are out there the header, quite long enough, would have become unwieldy. Yes - that campaign was a real low by the Tories. Hence the need for the action I am suggesting.
    Not just the Tories, but the Tory leadership.

    And on antisemitism, the campaign against Ed Miliband was pretty awful too
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 28,798



    Hmm - you clearly don't know much about Ukraine: Of course I'm only married to a Russian speaking Odessian with family and friends all across Eastern Ukraine so not an expert - but one thing almost all Ukrainians agree on is that just because you don't like the Kiev government doesn't mean you are longing for Putin or want your countrymen being shot and blown up by the country next door. You don't seem to understand either the status the DNR and LNR claim for themselves - they don't want to lose their gangster profits by becoming part of Russia, they still claim allegiance to Ukraine. As for your comments about the US, that's nothing more than a comment straight out of the Russian Foreign Service playbook.

    You are hunchman and I claim my 5 quid

    A plebiscite in Crimea would demonstrate that the territory is Russian.

    That doesn't mean the residents of the Crimea long for Putin (I never said that). I said that the territory is ethnically overwhelmingly Russian. It joined the Ukraine at the whim of a Soviet era politician.

    You lose you 5 quid, because I am not hunchman. (In fact, my partner is also an Odessian).

    Once again, my main point is that the responsibility for Trump lies with the AMERICANS. the responsibility for Brexit lies with the BRITISH.

    It is racist scapegoating to blame the Russians.
    When you start talking about ethnicity in respect of Russia and Ukraine it shows that you've wholly bought into the way the Kremlin wants you to see it.

    Russia is a multinational state, and the fact that another place might have a majority 'ethnically Russian' population does not mean that it belongs to the Russian state. The same logic could be used to say that Australia is British.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 25,196
    First, party supporters need to care. Right now they don't.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 29,650
    AndyJS said:

    Good article. Thanks Cyclefree.

    Labour anti-Semitism has become institutionalised because those who run Labour are anti-Semitic. It has been a top down exercise, which has attracted anti-Semites to the party. The real lesson that Labour can teach is do not put racists in charge.

    I don't think Mrs May is a racist. But she is undoubtedly a xenophobe. Johnson gives every impression of being a racist. Many other Tories seem to believe the way to get on is to pander to the worst instincts of their party's right-wing members.

    It's all a bloody mess.

    Why is Theresa May a xenophobe?

    God knows.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 20,218



    Hmm - you clearly don't know much about Ukraine: Of course I'm only married to a Russian speaking Odessian with family and friends all across Eastern Ukraine so not an expert - but one thing almost all Ukrainians agree on is that just because you don't like the Kiev government doesn't mean you are longing for Putin or want your countrymen being shot and blown up by the country next door. You don't seem to understand either the status the DNR and LNR claim for themselves - they don't want to lose their gangster profits by becoming part of Russia, they still claim allegiance to Ukraine. As for your comments about the US, that's nothing more than a comment straight out of the Russian Foreign Service playbook.

    You are hunchman and I claim my 5 quid

    A plebiscite in Crimea would demonstrate that the territory is Russian.

    That doesn't mean the residents of the Crimea long for Putin (I never said that). I said that the territory is ethnically overwhelmingly Russian. It joined the Ukraine at the whim of a Soviet era politician.

    You lose you 5 quid, because I am not hunchman. (In fact, my partner is also an Odessian).

    Once again, my main point is that the responsibility for Trump lies with the AMERICANS. the responsibility for Brexit lies with the BRITISH.

    It is racist scapegoating to blame the Russians.
    When you start talking about ethnicity in respect of Russia and Ukraine it shows that you've wholly bought into the way the Kremlin wants you to see it.

    Russia is a multinational state, and the fact that another place might have a majority 'ethnically Russian' population does not mean that it belongs to the Russian state. The same logic could be used to say that Australia is British.
    It is. They even have our flag on their flag and voted to remain tied to us in 1999 ;)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 14,061

    You do post bollocks sometimes ,the real backlash of minorities are the white minorities in majority asian/ black areas.

    I have experienced it with my family and friends but we keep getting told white- flight isn't happening.

    Another white middle-class idiot without a clue.

    I am the child of immigrants on both sides, both of whom had nasty things said about them, individually and as part of a group, in the past. So I do know something about what you are saying. And the behaviour of minorities to others is something that I do touch on in this - but that subject is for another header. Or perhaps you might want to write one.
  • Another good thread from Cyclefree
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 14,061

    First, party supporters need to care. Right now they don't.

    They ought to. That’s my point.

    Anyway, am off to give a talk to a law firm for International Women’s Day, what with me being an international woman and all ...... :)

    Will check in later.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 3,525


    Dura_Ace said:


    I have Russian friends (not as you sourly put it, Putin's idiots) who are frightened to travel to the US because of the prevailing Russo-phobia that bigoted people have caused.

    They are fucking idiots if not Putin's then as they have completely swallowed Putin's propaganda about how everywhere is a dysfunctional shit hole except the Rodina. Russian language media relentlessly exaggerates and sometimes fabricates the dangers faced by Russians abroad. This campaign is designed to stop Russians having any ideas about leaving the failing and decaying chirocracy and thus worsening its already appalling demographics.
    They are actually distinguished University professors, but I'll pass on your observation that they're fucking idiots to them.

    Like, who is best placed to judge whether Russians feel uncomfortable travelling in the neo-McCarthyist US ?

    Russians or ... err, Dura Ace
    Hundreds of thousands of Russians visit the US every year. What exactly are these "distinguished University professors" afraid of? What do they think is going to happen?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 12,182

    Another good thread from Cyclefree

    More than good.

    Her point 2) - establish, publicly, the scale of the problem is a sine qua non.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    edited March 8
    AndyJS said:

    Good article. Thanks Cyclefree.

    Labour anti-Semitism has become institutionalised because those who run Labour are anti-Semitic. It has been a top down exercise, which has attracted anti-Semites to the party. The real lesson that Labour can teach is do not put racists in charge.

    I don't think Mrs May is a racist. But she is undoubtedly a xenophobe. Johnson gives every impression of being a racist. Many other Tories seem to believe the way to get on is to pander to the worst instincts of their party's right-wing members.

    It's all a bloody mess.

    Why is Theresa May a xenophobe?
    On southern -

    Someone posting on racism of others living in the whitish part of the country,experience of poor immigration nil.

    You couldn't make it up.
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 392
    I worry about the high rates of conversion to Islam in our prisons, and the susceptibility of these converts to radicalisation. Is this a form of Islamophobia?
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 2,883

    AndyJS said:

    Good article. Thanks Cyclefree.

    Labour anti-Semitism has become institutionalised because those who run Labour are anti-Semitic. It has been a top down exercise, which has attracted anti-Semites to the party. The real lesson that Labour can teach is do not put racists in charge.

    I don't think Mrs May is a racist. But she is undoubtedly a xenophobe. Johnson gives every impression of being a racist. Many other Tories seem to believe the way to get on is to pander to the worst instincts of their party's right-wing members.

    It's all a bloody mess.

    Why is Theresa May a xenophobe?
    On southern -

    Someone posting on racism of others living in the whitish part of the country,experience of poor immigration nil.

    You couldn't make it up.
    Tbh you seem to be having difficulty making up a coherent thought
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 22,172
    edited March 8

    AndyJS said:


    The elections are at the end of May but the new Parliament doesn't sit until 2nd July. So any delay with a definite end date earlier than 2nd July would be okay I would assume. Anything after that would mean the UK taking part in the elections... again I assume.

    Thanks. I'm guessing plans are being made by local authorities to prepare for holding the elections in case there is a delay beyond that time.
    Actually I would be surprised if they are yet. Even at the planning stage that would involve committing money they probably haven't budgeted. And with the local elections currently scheduled for 2nd May it may well cause a lot of problems for them.
    The 2014 timetable, for an EU election on the equivalent weekend, is here:

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/word_doc/0019/163018/EPE-election-timetable-standalone.doc

    Of course, you'd need some lead time even up to the first dates on there, but it's probably doable - certainly if we got dispensation to poll a month later or something.

    My guess is that the government won't have let any formal guidance go out to LAs. But if I was a clued-up returning officer, I might have picked up the phone to the Electoral Commission to chew the cud over what might happen in various scenarios.
    Very useful doc, thanks for posting.

    So working back from a delayed EU election held at the end of June (Thursday 27th) in time for the elected MEPs to take their seats on 2nd July, publication of notice of election needs to be no later that Wed 22nd May (25 working days back, taking into account the bank holiday on Monday 27th May).

    The notice of election cannot be given until the legislation authorising it has been passed, which is going to take 3-4 weeks to go through the various motions even for a rush-job. So we are at the beginning of May already.

    I can't see the EU allowing any A50 extention where we move into the election period with any uncertainty about whether or not we will be EU members on 2nd July, it would be chaos for them with half the UK seats already allocated to other countries and the possibility of an incorrectly constituted EU Parliament unable to do anything when they reconvene.

    It needs to be either clear that we will be members (a long extention) or a short extension on the basis of the Treaty already being formally ratified and extra time needed to pass resulting legislation. The ratification requires legislation in both the UK and EU Parliaments, the latter being dissolved on 23rd April.

    So, if the Treaty isn't ratified by the EU Parliament before it is dissolved, we must definitely take part in the EU elections.
  • TrèsDifficileTrèsDifficile Posts: 392

    I worry about the high rates of conversion to Islam in our prisons, and the susceptibility of these converts to radicalisation. Is this a form of Islamophobia?

    I should make it clear that I do make an exception for Islam in this; I have no equivalent worry of conversions to Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism or Jainism (and apologies to those I've left out).
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 18,172

    TOPPING said:

    Nah. You and your fellow Leaver travellers misunderstood what the EU was supposed to be about, or the UK's relation to it. It was always a club which made things better for the UK in very many respects. Did it put a brand spanking new Range Rover Evoque on every driveway? No. Did it want to move to ever closer union? Yes but the UK got an opt out of that bit. It was an on balance better thing to be a part of than not. And now that we are going to leave we will on balance be worse off than we would have been. So there was no crash bang wallop slam dunk for the Remain campaign - you would have been pushed to find anyone who didn't acknowledge the EU's failings. But on the whole we did very well out of our membership.

    Which leaves you with sovereignty article which, as #FBPE Anna Soubry David Davis correctly identified, we always were.

    We were only sovereign in the theoretical sense that we could choose to leave. Which we did.

    Under the backstop which you are so 100% adamant we must sign and that there is no alternative we lose even that shred of theoretical sovereignty. We won't be able to choose to leave anymore.
    We are working with a partner together to make the backstop redundant. We would be signing of our own free, sovereign will. That's how the world works these days. North Korea aside.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 29,650

    AndyJS said:

    Good article. Thanks Cyclefree.

    Labour anti-Semitism has become institutionalised because those who run Labour are anti-Semitic. It has been a top down exercise, which has attracted anti-Semites to the party. The real lesson that Labour can teach is do not put racists in charge.

    I don't think Mrs May is a racist. But she is undoubtedly a xenophobe. Johnson gives every impression of being a racist. Many other Tories seem to believe the way to get on is to pander to the worst instincts of their party's right-wing members.

    It's all a bloody mess.

    Why is Theresa May a xenophobe?
    On southern -

    Someone posting on racism of others living in the whitish part of the country,experience of poor immigration nil.

    You couldn't make it up.

    I was born and brought up in Kentish Town, London. I lived in and around there until I was in my 40s. I grew up surrounded by immigrants from Ireland, Cyprus, the Caribbean and various other parts of the world. Unlike you, I never considered myself a victim.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 18,172
    edited March 8

    AndyJS said:

    Good article. Thanks Cyclefree.

    Labour anti-Semitism has become institutionalised because those who run Labour are anti-Semitic. It has been a top down exercise, which has attracted anti-Semites to the party. The real lesson that Labour can teach is do not put racists in charge.

    I don't think Mrs May is a racist. But she is undoubtedly a xenophobe. Johnson gives every impression of being a racist. Many other Tories seem to believe the way to get on is to pander to the worst instincts of their party's right-wing members.

    It's all a bloody mess.

    Why is Theresa May a xenophobe?
    On southern -

    Someone posting on racism of others living in the whitish part of the country,experience of poor immigration nil.

    You couldn't make it up.
    I am definitely not making light of your experiences, which I think are vile and disgusting and I am sorry that you and your family have had to endure them.

    But what on earth does that second sentence mean?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 22,172

    I worry about the high rates of conversion to Islam in our prisons, and the susceptibility of these converts to radicalisation. Is this a form of Islamophobia?

    Isn't there also an exceptionally high rate of transgenderism in prisons?

    The commonality being that those who are Muslim or Female are treated differently by the prison system, in ways that to a long-term prisoner would be seen as advantageous.

    Radicalisation is certainly a potential issue in prisons though, and one that the authorities should monitor closely both before and after release.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 498
    IanB2 said:

    Pick someone sensible and moderate is the answer to the question posed by the lead.

    Which is of course the last thing that Tory members are wanting to do.

    Hence the MPs will do their best to force the choice themselves.

    There is a big prize waiting for anyone who can work out how to get really significant numbers of ordinary, thoughtful, sane, stable, non-simplistic, moderate people to join and participate in any political party. The fact that this question isn't being discussed and acted on suggests that no-one thinks there is an answer. Are they right? Has anyone got a plan? Looking at the current state of membership of both Labour and Conservative it is not an inviting prospect to join.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 20,218

    I worry about the high rates of conversion to Islam in our prisons, and the susceptibility of these converts to radicalisation. Is this a form of Islamophobia?

    IMO no. Not at all.

    Islam is a belief system, and radical Islam is a radical belief system. We draw a distinction between religion and other belief systems like socialism, nationalism, fascism, communism etc but it is a false dichotomy.

    I see zero difference between someone converting to radical Islam and someone converting to radical fascism.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 18,459
    By the way, if you don't already, can I recommend subscribing to the Simple Politics weekly summary email put out by Tatton Spiller each Friday. It is really good precis of the planned votes in Parliament in the week ahead and also very good at running through the basics of what might happen with complex votes and what it means.

    You can subscribe at the bottom of the page at

    https://www.simplepolitics.co.uk/about
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 34,434
    Last week, the European Parliament tweeted a video about Article 13, informing the public that their memes are safe. The video was criticized for being inaccurate and this week, things got worse. It turns out that the video was created by a major media company, which lobbied extensively in favour of the EU Copyright Directive.

    https://torrentfreak.com/european-parliaments-pro-article-13-video-has-backfired-190308/
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 20,218
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nah. You and your fellow Leaver travellers misunderstood what the EU was supposed to be about, or the UK's relation to it. It was always a club which made things better for the UK in very many respects. Did it put a brand spanking new Range Rover Evoque on every driveway? No. Did it want to move to ever closer union? Yes but the UK got an opt out of that bit. It was an on balance better thing to be a part of than not. And now that we are going to leave we will on balance be worse off than we would have been. So there was no crash bang wallop slam dunk for the Remain campaign - you would have been pushed to find anyone who didn't acknowledge the EU's failings. But on the whole we did very well out of our membership.

    Which leaves you with sovereignty article which, as #FBPE Anna Soubry David Davis correctly identified, we always were.

    We were only sovereign in the theoretical sense that we could choose to leave. Which we did.

    Under the backstop which you are so 100% adamant we must sign and that there is no alternative we lose even that shred of theoretical sovereignty. We won't be able to choose to leave anymore.
    We are working with a partner together to make the backstop redundant. We would be signing of our own free, sovereign will. That's how the world works these days. North Korea aside.
    Signing freely is how the world works, but it also works by signing agreements freely that future generations or Parliaments can then revoke freely.

    We can unilaterally exit the EU. We can unilaterally exit NATO. We can unilaterally exit the WTO. We can even unilaterally exit the United Nations.

    We can't unilaterally exit the backstop. That is not how the world works these days.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 2,782
    Dura_Ace said:


    Dura_Ace said:


    I have Russian friends (not as you sourly put it, Putin's idiots) who are frightened to travel to the US because of the prevailing Russo-phobia that bigoted people have caused.

    They are fucking idiots if not Putin's then as they have completely swallowed Putin's propaganda about how everywhere is a dysfunctional shit hole except the Rodina. Russian language media relentlessly exaggerates and sometimes fabricates the dangers faced by Russians abroad. This campaign is designed to stop Russians having any ideas about leaving the failing and decaying chirocracy and thus worsening its already appalling demographics.
    They are actually distinguished University professors, but I'll pass on your observation that they're fucking idiots to them.

    Like, who is best placed to judge whether Russians feel uncomfortable travelling in the neo-McCarthyist US ?

    Russians or ... err, Dura Ace
    Hundreds of thousands of Russians visit the US every year. What exactly are these "distinguished University professors" afraid of? What do they think is going to happen?
    Maybe meeting some uncaring & unforgiving bastard who blames them for Trump.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 22,172

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nah. You and your fellow Leaver travellers misunderstood what the EU was supposed to be about, or the UK's relation to it. It was always a club which made things better for the UK in very many respects. Did it put a brand spanking new Range Rover Evoque on every driveway? No. Did it want to move to ever closer union? Yes but the UK got an opt out of that bit. It was an on balance better thing to be a part of than not. And now that we are going to leave we will on balance be worse off than we would have been. So there was no crash bang wallop slam dunk for the Remain campaign - you would have been pushed to find anyone who didn't acknowledge the EU's failings. But on the whole we did very well out of our membership.

    Which leaves you with sovereignty article which, as #FBPE Anna Soubry David Davis correctly identified, we always were.

    We were only sovereign in the theoretical sense that we could choose to leave. Which we did.

    Under the backstop which you are so 100% adamant we must sign and that there is no alternative we lose even that shred of theoretical sovereignty. We won't be able to choose to leave anymore.
    We are working with a partner together to make the backstop redundant. We would be signing of our own free, sovereign will. That's how the world works these days. North Korea aside.
    Signing freely is how the world works, but it also works by signing agreements freely that future generations or Parliaments can then revoke freely.

    We can unilaterally exit the EU. We can unilaterally exit NATO. We can unilaterally exit the WTO. We can even unilaterally exit the United Nations.

    We can't unilaterally exit the backstop. That is not how the world works these days.
    +1
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 28,798

    Dura_Ace said:


    Dura_Ace said:


    I have Russian friends (not as you sourly put it, Putin's idiots) who are frightened to travel to the US because of the prevailing Russo-phobia that bigoted people have caused.

    They are fucking idiots if not Putin's then as they have completely swallowed Putin's propaganda about how everywhere is a dysfunctional shit hole except the Rodina. Russian language media relentlessly exaggerates and sometimes fabricates the dangers faced by Russians abroad. This campaign is designed to stop Russians having any ideas about leaving the failing and decaying chirocracy and thus worsening its already appalling demographics.
    They are actually distinguished University professors, but I'll pass on your observation that they're fucking idiots to them.

    Like, who is best placed to judge whether Russians feel uncomfortable travelling in the neo-McCarthyist US ?

    Russians or ... err, Dura Ace
    Hundreds of thousands of Russians visit the US every year. What exactly are these "distinguished University professors" afraid of? What do they think is going to happen?
    Maybe meeting some uncaring & unforgiving bastard who blames them for Trump.
    Are you suggesting the Americans are not happy about Trump?
  • Harris_TweedHarris_Tweed Posts: 759
    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:


    The elections are at the end of May but the new Parliament doesn't sit until 2nd July. So any delay with a definite end date earlier than 2nd July would be okay I would assume. Anything after that would mean the UK taking part in the elections... again I assume.

    Thanks. I'm guessing plans are being made by local authorities to prepare for holding the elections in case there is a delay beyond that time.
    Actually I would be surprised if they are yet. Even at the planning stage that would involve committing money they probably haven't budgeted. And with the local elections currently scheduled for 2nd May it may well cause a lot of problems for them.
    The 2014 timetable, for an EU election on the equivalent weekend, is here:

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/word_doc/0019/163018/EPE-election-timetable-standalone.doc

    Of course, you'd need some lead time even up to the first dates on there, but it's probably doable - certainly if we got dispensation to poll a month later or something.

    My guess is that the government won't have let any formal guidance go out to LAs. But if I was a clued-up returning officer, I might have picked up the phone to the Electoral Commission to chew the cud over what might happen in various scenarios.
    Very useful doc, thanks for posting.

    (snip a load of sensible stuff to keep Vanilla happy)

    So, if the Treaty isn't ratified by the EU Parliament before it is dissolved, we must definitely take part in the EU elections.
    I think your conclusions are reasonable. But I also suspect there will be much unpicking required in those circumstances (eg over the make up of the new parliament) which will need more than a handshake over vol-au-vents.. so it's probably all up for grabs.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 8,685

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nah. You and your fellow Leaver travellers misunderstood what the EU was supposed to be about, or the UK's relation to it. It was always a club which made things better for the UK in very many respects. Did it put a brand spanking new Range Rover Evoque on every driveway? No. Did it want to move to ever closer union? Yes but the UK got an opt out of that bit. It was an on balance better thing to be a part of than not. And now that we are going to leave we will on balance be worse off than we would have been. So there was no crash bang wallop slam dunk for the Remain campaign - you would have been pushed to find anyone who didn't acknowledge the EU's failings. But on the whole we did very well out of our membership.

    Which leaves you with sovereignty article which, as #FBPE Anna Soubry David Davis correctly identified, we always were.

    We were only sovereign in the theoretical sense that we could choose to leave. Which we did.

    Under the backstop which you are so 100% adamant we must sign and that there is no alternative we lose even that shred of theoretical sovereignty. We won't be able to choose to leave anymore.
    We are working with a partner together to make the backstop redundant. We would be signing of our own free, sovereign will. That's how the world works these days. North Korea aside.
    Signing freely is how the world works, but it also works by signing agreements freely that future generations or Parliaments can then revoke freely.

    We can unilaterally exit the EU. We can unilaterally exit NATO. We can unilaterally exit the WTO. We can even unilaterally exit the United Nations.

    We can't unilaterally exit the backstop. That is not how the world works these days.
    I agree with you. Instead of perpetual backstop, the EU should poison-pill every agreement it makes with the UK: "this agreement is void should the UK leave the backstop". A massive guillotine. It comes to the same thing as perpetual backstop but gets rid of the hangup.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 22,172
    edited March 8

    Last week, the European Parliament tweeted a video about Article 13, informing the public that their memes are safe. The video was criticized for being inaccurate and this week, things got worse. It turns out that the video was created by a major media company, which lobbied extensively in favour of the EU Copyright Directive.

    https://torrentfreak.com/european-parliaments-pro-article-13-video-has-backfired-190308/

    This legislation is a proper mess, it’s a European Dangerous Dogs Act.

    What politicians are saying about it and what it means, bear little relation to what’s actually written down in the law.

    It's what happens when legislation is made by lobbying consensus-building and there's no official Opposition in the Parliament.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 25,177
    AndyJS said:

    Good article. Thanks Cyclefree.

    Labour anti-Semitism has become institutionalised because those who run Labour are anti-Semitic. It has been a top down exercise, which has attracted anti-Semites to the party. The real lesson that Labour can teach is do not put racists in charge.

    I don't think Mrs May is a racist. But she is undoubtedly a xenophobe. Johnson gives every impression of being a racist. Many other Tories seem to believe the way to get on is to pander to the worst instincts of their party's right-wing members.

    It's all a bloody mess.

    Why is Theresa May a xenophobe?
    I reckon a lengthy stint as Home Secretary would make most anybody a xenophobe, in the sense that you really are having to deal with some of the worst people imaginable. A very good friend of mine is very right on, but in her capacity as an immigration tribunal judge she occasionally wishes she had the ability to smite, such are some of the scummy people she is asked to sit in judgment on. And these aren't even the ones trying to blow us up....

    I dare say that if asked, Theresa May would say the Home Secretary is the one in possession of a much fuller data set on the risks we are exposed to by letting Johnny Foreigner live amongst us. She doesn't see much milk of human kindness, yet is expected to dispense it by those whose disposition is always to see the best in people.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 49,750
    Mr. Urquhart, thanks for posting that.

    Not like we'll see any actual reporting of Article 13 on the news...
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 816
    Pulpstar said:

    TGOHF said:

    Endillion said:

    rkrkrk said:

    The thread header doesn't mention the London mayoral campaign which seems quite an omission.

    From a narrow PR perspective, it's hard to see why the Tories should be looking to learn from Labour. Labour's PR on the antisemitism issue has been a complete disaster. The Tories meanwhile have largely avoided bad headlines.

    An independent investigation into the Tory party is going to find plenty of problems. It will be mistrusted from the start, and any penalties/actions seen through the prism of Remainer vs. Leaver.

    You just wait and see what the Labour membership start throwing at the Tory candidate during the next London Mayoral election...
    Cons should have selected a lesbian Jewish woman - for maximum Labour implosion.
    They've picked Shaun Bailey, which makes Khan's retention of his job trivial.
    It's important to demonstrate that the leadership's tolerance of abuse by its supporters towards minorities is not confined to a single group.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 2,782



    When you start talking about ethnicity in respect of Russia and Ukraine it shows that you've wholly bought into the way the Kremlin wants you to see it.

    Russia is a multinational state, and the fact that another place might have a majority 'ethnically Russian' population does not mean that it belongs to the Russian state. The same logic could be used to say that Australia is British.

    Excellent analogy ... apart from, I guess, Russia adjoins the Crimea, and Australia is the other end of the world from Britain.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 15,007
    Good morning everyone. Late start, due to gym session this morning, where, anecdote alert, no less than three people, only one of whom am I on more than nodding terms, remarked to me that the country was in a mess, and how we should never have tried to leave the EU.
    Especially interestingly, the one who m I know slightly, who is my age, remarked that her daughter.... apparently in her 50's...... wanted to go back to how it was before..... everything was all right then. A time, of course, which she doesn't remember. My acquaintance is amazed, and somewhat distressed, that her daughter takes that view.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 12,182

    First, party supporters need to care. Right now they don't.

    Not necessarily true - there is plenty of room for leadership on the issue. If such leadership existed.
This discussion has been closed.