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  • Has Adam Boulton confused CCHQ with GCHQ?

    https://twitter.com/adamboultonSKY/status/1217372338657931265

    Perhaps they're being amalgamated. Domski's really motoring now..
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:
    I love it that the author of these polls thinks that telling us that 46 is 5 more than 41 is helpful. I first assumed that these were in fact movements from their last effort but apparently not.
    It is a bizzare peculiarity of American polling that they report like this.

    I believe it drives Shadsy mad.
  • Has Adam Boulton confused CCHQ with GCHQ?

    https://twitter.com/adamboultonSKY/status/1217372338657931265

    Yes he has but why does Dominic Cummings (aka Number 10) want to move CCHQ out of London? To stop Conservative MPs, including the Prime Minister, from dropping in?
  • speedy2 said:

    houndtang said:

    All the Democrats needed to do was find a middle of the road state governor with a vaguely presidential look and they could win easily. Instead they have managed to find a bunch of candidates all of whom will likely lose to Trump. Genius.

    There is none.

    Governors have governing records that they can never defend.
    Also because the media is so centralized around the D.C.-N.Y axis no one knows who those Governors are, but they do know about Senators and New York politicians.
    You say that but being a Governor is one of the historically most successful routes to becoming President, more successful than being a Senator. 17 former Presidents including most of the most recent Presidents were former Governors.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 23,926
    edited January 2020

    CCHQ should move to Sheffield.

    Dom considered it but found Sheffield is full of unreconstructed Cameroons.
  • Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    The investigation into the South Yorkshire plods has now been going on for over five years.

    World wars can be fought in less time.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653
    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    I agree. I`ve lost a lot of respect for the police lately. I never thought I`d be saying that.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    Given the laughable failure of basic checks and deletions of records in paedophile case after paedophile case, at what point do we stop attributing this to incompetence and start to consider deliberate cover ups by rings of powerful people? What happened to Theresa May's review of all this? Strangely silently dropped?
  • Excitement palpable.

    https://twitter.com/Jackson_Carlaw/status/1217361067204104192?s=20

    I see Jackson has been tested. I wonder if there's any recent measure of how he fared in that test?
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729
    edited January 2020
    Gabs3 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    Given the laughable failure of basic checks and deletions of records in paedophile case after paedophile case, at what point do we stop attributing this to incompetence and start to consider deliberate cover ups by rings of powerful people? What happened to Theresa May's review of all this? Strangely silently dropped?
    Maybe James O'Brien will get his teeth into this one, after his enthusiastic exposure of the fake paedophilia he thought Tories were guilty of.
  • CCHQ should move to Sheffield.

    Dom considered it but found Sheffield is full of unreconstructed Cameroons.
    I maybe becoming a Manc again so Sheffield will lose its most prominent Cameroon.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    I'm puzzled by people who are delighted when the 'right kind of people' are upset by things.

    Fools can be right sometimes. The wise can err. And doing things or being pleased that they are done because it annoys those with differing views just seems an odd motivation to me.

    The crowing, triumphalist Visigoths are at the gate, ravening for the blood and tears of the vanquished.
    Some of them are in government....

    https://twitter.com/frusciante103/status/1216491915396382720?s=20
    If you want to identify SCons and Unionists as the vanquished, I shan't stand in your way.
    It's the Scottish electorate that's standing in Ms Sturgeon's way.....
    Yep, just sickening how the Scottish electorate *checks notes* decided to stop another independence referendum by voting for Stephen Kerr.
    See you in a generation.....
  • Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    Re Flybe “rescue”. If, as is reported, this has been done by “letting them off” payment of air passenger duty, surely this is a literal misuse of taxpayer money? Air passenger duty is paid by customers as a supplement to their air fare. The airline only role is to administer collection and payment to the Government. It is at no point “their money”. Arguably it should be held in a separate ring fenced account if their is any suggestion if it being used to subsidise the business. And yet this appears to be in effect what is happening.

    If Flybe doesn’t have to hand it over, then people should get their money back!

    AIUI payment of the tax is being deferred rather than written off. But it still looks like State Aid to me. It may be as well that the jurisdiction of the CJEU ends at the end of the month. Flybe is an important provider of regional flights in Scotland. It is important that these services are still available.
    The tories are displaying the zeal of the recent convert when it comes to throwing taxpayers' money at a nonviable business.

    Corbyn won the argument.
    Thatcher said 'let lame ducks die'. It was harsh if something fulfilled a social purpose. But R4 said that the co-owners have plenty of ££ to bail this airline out. Let them do so.

    Yes, mis-use of taxpayers' ££.
    I don't believe the government is putting a penny into FlyBe is it? I believe the co-owers are bailing the airline out.

    FlyBe is deferring giving money to the government which is somewhat a different thing.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Excitement palpable.

    https://twitter.com/Jackson_Carlaw/status/1217361067204104192?s=20

    I see Jackson has been tested. I wonder if there's any recent measure of how he fared in that test?

    Is the Vision "No to IndyRef 2"?
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 926

    You say that but being a Governor is one of the historically most successful routes to becoming President, more successful than being a Senator. 17 former Presidents including most of the most recent Presidents were former Governors.

    I think I agree with what IIRC was the 538 take on why Governors aren't doing well this time round -- national name recognition has become too important a factor, and Governors don't generally make national news. The front-runners in polling are the ex-VP, the guy who came second last time, a nationally prominent senator, and the one candidate who managed to time a very well-run media blitz to get the early recognition and polling boost.
  • Gabs3Gabs3 Posts: 836
    isam said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    Given the laughable failure of basic checks and deletions of records in paedophile case after paedophile case, at what point do we stop attributing this to incompetence and start to consider deliberate cover ups by rings of powerful people? What happened to Theresa May's review of all this? Strangely silently dropped?
    Maybe James O'Brien will get his teeth into this one, after his enthusiastic exposure of the fake paedophilia he thought Tories were guilty of.
    He was blinded by partisanship rather than focused on just the most suspicious cases. Do you honestly believe the complete lack of records for Epstein's supposed attempted suicide and suicide was just a remarkable string of coincidences?
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    Re Flybe “rescue”. If, as is reported, this has been done by “letting them off” payment of air passenger duty, surely this is a literal misuse of taxpayer money? Air passenger duty is paid by customers as a supplement to their air fare. The airline only role is to administer collection and payment to the Government. It is at no point “their money”. Arguably it should be held in a separate ring fenced account if their is any suggestion if it being used to subsidise the business. And yet this appears to be in effect what is happening.

    If Flybe doesn’t have to hand it over, then people should get their money back!

    AIUI payment of the tax is being deferred rather than written off. But it still looks like State Aid to me. It may be as well that the jurisdiction of the CJEU ends at the end of the month. Flybe is an important provider of regional flights in Scotland. It is important that these services are still available.
    Flybe is one of those things where you sit in London or the midlands and go - not important. But if you live in the Highlands or Devon / Cornwall it's the only way to get to where you want without 2 additional days of travel.

    And if you have to subsidise it to keep it going I don't think any Government would have any choice but to do so.
    Yep. Its a price you pay for having a truly crap rail service. Dundee has been casting about trying to get another airline to take on direct flights to London. Even with very cheap landing fees here its proven very difficult to make a go of this and previous efforts have not lasted long. The landing fees at City are killing for a marginal service.
    Aren’t we meant to be cutting carbon emissions? Aviation kerosene is exempt from tax, unlike petrol and diesel. Airlines are therefore already subsidised. If they can’t make money on the current basis I don’t see why they should be subsidised even more. And shareholders in FlyBe - like Virgin- have plenty of money to keep FlyBe going instead of putting a hand out to taxpayers.
    Take you home in the Lakes, move to Inverness or Cornwall and think about how you get to London without losing a day each side for travelling.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    Re Flybe “rescue”. If, as is reported, this has been done by “letting them off” payment of air passenger duty, surely this is a literal misuse of taxpayer money? Air passenger duty is paid by customers as a supplement to their air fare. The airline only role is to administer collection and payment to the Government. It is at no point “their money”. Arguably it should be held in a separate ring fenced account if their is any suggestion if it being used to subsidise the business. And yet this appears to be in effect what is happening.

    If Flybe doesn’t have to hand it over, then people should get their money back!

    AIUI payment of the tax is being deferred rather than written off. But it still looks like State Aid to me. It may be as well that the jurisdiction of the CJEU ends at the end of the month. Flybe is an important provider of regional flights in Scotland. It is important that these services are still available.
    The tories are displaying the zeal of the recent convert when it comes to throwing taxpayers' money at a nonviable business.

    Corbyn won the argument.
    Thatcher said 'let lame ducks die'. It was harsh if something fulfilled a social purpose. But R4 said that the co-owners have plenty of ££ to bail this airline out. Let them do so.

    Yes, mis-use of taxpayers' ££.
    I don't believe the government is putting a penny into FlyBe is it? I believe the co-owers are bailing the airline out.

    FlyBe is deferring giving money to the government which is somewhat a different thing.
    That depends on how long it is deferring paying the tax.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    CCHQ should move to Sheffield.

    No. Barrow-in-Furness. Seriously. Boris’s PPS lives in the next constituency (where there is a small village called Bootle, which the Tories have indeed gained!). There are 2 new Tory MPs - in Barrow and Workington - and it is far closer to the new Tory constituencies in the North. Plus it really will show Dominic Cummings and others what life is really like outside the metropolitan bubble, whether that is London or Sheffield.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    I agree. I`ve lost a lot of respect for the police lately. I never thought I`d be saying that.
    I have had several run ins with them due to my 'spirited' driving history. They are pathological liars and almost always rely on people being stupid enough to incriminate themselves rather than doing any work.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    eek said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    Re Flybe “rescue”. If, as is reported, this has been done by “letting them off” payment of air passenger duty, surely this is a literal misuse of taxpayer money? Air passenger duty is paid by customers as a supplement to their air fare. The airline only role is to administer collection and payment to the Government. It is at no point “their money”. Arguably it should be held in a separate ring fenced account if their is any suggestion if it being used to subsidise the business.

    AIUI payment of the tax is being deferred rather than written off. But it still looks like State Aid to me. It may be as well that the jurisdiction of the CJEU ends at the end of the month. Flybe is an important provider of regional flights in Scotland. It is important that these services are still available.
    Flybe is one of those things where you sit in London or the midlands and go - not important. But if you live in the Highlands or Devon / Cornwall it's the only way to get to where you want without 2 additional days of travel.

    And if you have to subsidise it to keep it going I don't think any Government would have any choice but to do so.
    Yep. Its a price you pay for having a truly crap rail service. Dundee has been casting about trying to get another airline to take on direct flights to London. Even with very cheap landing fees here its proven very difficult to make a go of this and previous efforts have not lasted long. The landing fees at City are killing for a marginal service.
    Aren’t we meant to be cutting carbon emissions? Aviation kerosene is exempt from tax, unlike petrol and diesel. Airlines are therefore already subsidised. If they can’t make money on the current basis I don’t see why they should be subsidised even more. And shareholders in FlyBe - like Virgin- have plenty of money to keep FlyBe going instead of putting a hand out to taxpayers.
    Take you home in the Lakes, move to Inverness or Cornwall and think about how you get to London without losing a day each side for travelling.
    The first question to ask is why you need to get to London? If it’s a meeting will Skype or a conference call do instead?

    The real cost of the travel needs to be paid. Why should airlines - which produce carbon emissions - not be taxed in the same way as other modes of transport? Why should they be further subsidised? Maybe alternative types of fast transport need to be invested in? @DavidL mentioned below that the train service from Dundee was rubbish so maybe improving that should be the answer rather than propping up a failed airline.

    There may be a case for subsidising individual routes but not for subsidising a whole airline.
  • Sheffield is in the Midlands?

    Ferfuxakes how can Yorkshire be in the Midlands? We’re the most Northern county you can find!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    Cyclefree said:

    CCHQ should move to Sheffield.

    No. Barrow-in-Furness. Seriously. Boris’s PPS lives in the next constituency (where there is a small village called Bootle, which the Tories have indeed gained!). There are 2 new Tory MPs - in Barrow and Workington - and it is far closer to the new Tory constituencies in the North. Plus it really will show Dominic Cummings and others what life is really like outside the metropolitan bubble, whether that is London or Sheffield.
    You have no idea how much you will just have made Ave It's day!

    Barrow will also be handy for driving to Belfast under the new tunnels from Whitehaven via the Isle of Man.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    edited January 2020

    Sheffield is in the Midlands?

    Ferfuxakes how can Yorkshire be in the Midlands? We’re the most Northern county you can find!
    Looks South and waves....

    Remember Yorkshire is the southern part of the Kingdom of Northumbria
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729
    Gabs3 said:

    isam said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    Given the laughable failure of basic checks and deletions of records in paedophile case after paedophile case, at what point do we stop attributing this to incompetence and start to consider deliberate cover ups by rings of powerful people? What happened to Theresa May's review of all this? Strangely silently dropped?
    Maybe James O'Brien will get his teeth into this one, after his enthusiastic exposure of the fake paedophilia he thought Tories were guilty of.
    He was blinded by partisanship rather than focused on just the most suspicious cases. Do you honestly believe the complete lack of records for Epstein's supposed attempted suicide and suicide was just a remarkable string of coincidences?
    "He was blinded by partisanship"

    Ain't that a change?
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Cyclefree said:

    CCHQ should move to Sheffield.

    No. Barrow-in-Furness. Seriously. Boris’s PPS lives in the next constituency (where there is a small village called Bootle, which the Tories have indeed gained!). There are 2 new Tory MPs - in Barrow and Workington - and it is far closer to the new Tory constituencies in the North. Plus it really will show Dominic Cummings and others what life is really like outside the metropolitan bubble, whether that is London or Sheffield.
    You have no idea how much you will just have made Ave It's day!

    Barrow will also be handy for driving to Belfast under the new tunnels from Whitehaven via the Isle of Man.
    You could equally argue Teesside as that features a whole host of new Tory councils and seats.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2020

    Discuss, comma.

    twitter.com/adamboultonSKY/status/1217387270514401281?s=20

    Was that chart produced by the same people who did the Labour Party internal polling / seat targeting?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,569
    Gabs3 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    Given the laughable failure of basic checks and deletions of records in paedophile case after paedophile case, at what point do we stop attributing this to incompetence and start to consider deliberate cover ups by rings of powerful people? What happened to Theresa May's review of all this? Strangely silently dropped?
    Manchester gives all indications of being a cover up.
    Not only have they managed to lose all records of the crucial meeting which decided to abandon the investigation into the clear ongoing abuse, those in charge have all 'forgotten' who was present at the meeting and what took place...
    Those decisions could only have been taken by the most senior officers, and it beggars belief that they are unable to recall what took place.

    And there doesn't seem to be any great determination by their successors to investigate, as opposed to "learn lessons"...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,569

    Sheffield is in the Midlands?

    Ferfuxakes how can Yorkshire be in the Midlands? We’re the most Northern county you can find!
    In all fairness, that red line ought to run straight through the centre of Sheffield.
  • Sheffield is in the Midlands?

    Ferfuxakes how can Yorkshire be in the Midlands? We’re the most Northern county you can find!
    Since when was Chester in the Midlands too?

    Going south of Chester and Sheffield are in the Midlands sure but Chester is in the North West and Yorkshire is North.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    edited January 2020
    Alistair said:

    Excitement palpable.

    https://twitter.com/Jackson_Carlaw/status/1217361067204104192?s=20

    I see Jackson has been tested. I wonder if there's any recent measure of how he fared in that test?

    Is the Vision "No to IndyRef 2"?
    Why change a winning..er..losing formula that at best keeps you a distant second in Scotland?

    #jacksonnotforfm
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,996
    On US Governors, two things. First, Obama in 2008 showed that being a lawmaker was a legitimate path to victory for the first time since the 1960s. Before 2008, many pundits thought senators had indefensible records. Second, Trump in 2016 showed that government experience and even business success do not matter.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    Cheshire is start of the North on the western side, North Staffordshire is a border region twixt Midlands and North but counts as Midlands if we are being binary. Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire are the north end of the Midlands. Straight lines won't do, the old county boundaries are what signify.
  • Sheffield is in the Midlands?

    Ferfuxakes how can Yorkshire be in the Midlands? We’re the most Northern county you can find!
    Er, ever been to Northumberland?
  • It's an oddity of the Dem nomination race that the field has weakened as it has narrowed down.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    Sheffield is in the Midlands?

    Ferfuxakes how can Yorkshire be in the Midlands? We’re the most Northern county you can find!
    You have to love that map.

    No "towns" between Oxford and Liverpool.

    Sorry, Coventry, Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Stoke....
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    Re Flybe “rescue”. If, as is reported, this has been done by “letting them off” payment of air passenger duty, surely this is a literal misuse of taxpayer money? Air passenger duty is paid by customers as a supplement to their air fare. The airline only role is to administer collection and payment to the Government. It is at no point “their money”. Arguably it should be held in a separate ring fenced account if their is any suggestion if it being used to subsidise the business. And yet this appears to be in effect what is happening.

    If Flybe doesn’t have to hand it over, then people should get their money back!

    AIUI payment of the tax is being deferred rather than written off. But it still looks like State Aid to me. It may be as well that the jurisdiction of the CJEU ends at the end of the month. Flybe is an important provider of regional flights in Scotland. It is important that these services are still available.
    The tories are displaying the zeal of the recent convert when it comes to throwing taxpayers' money at a nonviable business.

    Corbyn won the argument.
    Thatcher said 'let lame ducks die'. It was harsh if something fulfilled a social purpose. But R4 said that the co-owners have plenty of ££ to bail this airline out. Let them do so.

    Yes, mis-use of taxpayers' ££.
    I don't believe the government is putting a penny into FlyBe is it? I believe the co-owers are bailing the airline out.

    FlyBe is deferring giving money to the government which is somewhat a different thing.
    That depends on how long it is deferring paying the tax.
    It's highly abnormal to do this. One would at least expect the government to charge interest on debts.

    Private Eye reported that HMRC gave a Tory party official longer for his company to pay a tax bill. Do other businesses get longer to pay if the boss becomes a donor or party official?
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797

    Cheshire is start of the North on the western side, North Staffordshire is a border region twixt Midlands and North but counts as Midlands if we are being binary. Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire are the north end of the Midlands. Straight lines won't do, the old county boundaries are what signify.

    Yorkshire is not the North - OK North Yorkshire is but the rest of it really isn't.
  • pm215 said:

    You say that but being a Governor is one of the historically most successful routes to becoming President, more successful than being a Senator. 17 former Presidents including most of the most recent Presidents were former Governors.

    I think I agree with what IIRC was the 538 take on why Governors aren't doing well this time round -- national name recognition has become too important a factor, and Governors don't generally make national news. The front-runners in polling are the ex-VP, the guy who came second last time, a nationally prominent senator, and the one candidate who managed to time a very well-run media blitz to get the early recognition and polling boost.
    Which I think is post hoc, ergo propter hoc bullshit.

    When the Mayor of a small town can run a media blitz, a Governor certainly can. Just because there are no successful Governor candidates running this time doesn't mean that Governors can't win going forwards. If there was a candidate of the calibre of Bill Clinton they could win just as he did.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    Sheffield is in the Midlands?

    Ferfuxakes how can Yorkshire be in the Midlands? We’re the most Northern county you can find!
    Since when was Chester in the Midlands too?

    Going south of Chester and Sheffield are in the Midlands sure but Chester is in the North West and Yorkshire is North.
    There is no North-Midlands-South.

    We're all Tories now, mi duck.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    Given the laughable failure of basic checks and deletions of records in paedophile case after paedophile case, at what point do we stop attributing this to incompetence and start to consider deliberate cover ups by rings of powerful people? What happened to Theresa May's review of all this? Strangely silently dropped?
    Manchester gives all indications of being a cover up.
    Not only have they managed to lose all records of the crucial meeting which decided to abandon the investigation into the clear ongoing abuse, those in charge have all 'forgotten' who was present at the meeting and what took place...
    Those decisions could only have been taken by the most senior officers, and it beggars belief that they are unable to recall what took place.

    And there doesn't seem to be any great determination by their successors to investigate, as opposed to "learn lessons"...
    If the government provided the funding and gave me the necessary powers I could pull together a team of really tough no nonsense investigators that would really find out what was going on and not take any shit from these people. Not that any government would do this because they don’t really want to know and all pay obeisance to the law’n’order / sun shines out of the police’s arses nonsense.

    More seriously, in the story on Manchester there is reference to one of the girls being seen in a car which was traced to someone in the police and when this was noted the person finding this out being told not to go there. It would not surprise me one bit to find out there was more active involvement by some in the police and local councillors and other worthies in what was being done to the girls and not just in the doing nothing. It wasn’t just Asian taxi drivers who were abusing the girls, I suspect.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Eek, one disputes that claim with vigour.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038

    It's an oddity of the Dem nomination race that the field has weakened as it has narrowed down.

    I am pretty gloomy at moment. Can't see any of this lot beating Trump.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    Given the laughable failure of basic checks and deletions of records in paedophile case after paedophile case, at what point do we stop attributing this to incompetence and start to consider deliberate cover ups by rings of powerful people? What happened to Theresa May's review of all this? Strangely silently dropped?
    Manchester gives all indications of being a cover up.
    Not only have they managed to lose all records of the crucial meeting which decided to abandon the investigation into the clear ongoing abuse, those in charge have all 'forgotten' who was present at the meeting and what took place...
    Those decisions could only have been taken by the most senior officers, and it beggars belief that they are unable to recall what took place.

    And there doesn't seem to be any great determination by their successors to investigate, as opposed to "learn lessons"...
    If the government provided the funding and gave me the necessary powers I could pull together a team of really tough no nonsense investigators that would really find out what was going on and not take any shit from these people. Not that any government would do this because they don’t really want to know and all pay obeisance to the law’n’order / sun shines out of the police’s arses nonsense.

    More seriously, in the story on Manchester there is reference to one of the girls being seen in a car which was traced to someone in the police and when this was noted the person finding this out being told not to go there. It would not surprise me one bit to find out there was more active involvement by some in the police and local councillors and other worthies in what was being done to the girls and not just in the doing nothing. It wasn’t just Asian taxi drivers who were abusing the girls, I suspect.
    I suspect there was a very murky interface between police, their informants and some of these groomers. "Leave them be with their white-trash drugged-up slags, as long as they give us the odd tid-bit we can use to take villains off the street....".

    Er.....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,569
    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    Given the laughable failure of basic checks and deletions of records in paedophile case after paedophile case, at what point do we stop attributing this to incompetence and start to consider deliberate cover ups by rings of powerful people? What happened to Theresa May's review of all this? Strangely silently dropped?
    Manchester gives all indications of being a cover up.
    Not only have they managed to lose all records of the crucial meeting which decided to abandon the investigation into the clear ongoing abuse, those in charge have all 'forgotten' who was present at the meeting and what took place...
    Those decisions could only have been taken by the most senior officers, and it beggars belief that they are unable to recall what took place.

    And there doesn't seem to be any great determination by their successors to investigate, as opposed to "learn lessons"...
    If the government provided the funding and gave me the necessary powers I could pull together a team of really tough no nonsense investigators that would really find out what was going on and not take any shit from these people. Not that any government would do this because they don’t really want to know and all pay obeisance to the law’n’order / sun shines out of the police’s arses nonsense.

    More seriously, in the story on Manchester there is reference to one of the girls being seen in a car which was traced to someone in the police and when this was noted the person finding this out being told not to go there. It would not surprise me one bit to find out there was more active involvement by some in the police and local councillors and other worthies in what was being done to the girls and not just in the doing nothing. It wasn’t just Asian taxi drivers who were abusing the girls, I suspect.
    The entire story stinks.
    Are there not Police and Crime Commissioner elections this year ? Independent reformers running on the kind of platform you suggest might be interesting...
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 926

    When the Mayor of a small town can run a media blitz, a Governor certainly can. Just because there are no successful Governor candidates running this time doesn't mean that Governors can't win going forwards. If there was a candidate of the calibre of Bill Clinton they could win just as he did.

    Sure, they can. But then they're succeeding because of their media savvy to get recognised and on their merits, charisma, etc thereafter. The point is that merely being a Governor is (perhaps) no longer a reliable ticket to being a serious contender.

    Agreed that we shouldn't put too much weight on this theory until we see if it plays out in future election cycles, though.
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 431

    FPT - I think Lisa Nandy is the best candidate because she’s the best candidate. I didn’t even know her heritage.

    However, some Labour MP has mentioned she’s a great BAME candidate.

    Given the obsession the Left have with intersectionality and labelling, maybe that’s a better way for her to get votes in that bubble?

    Nandy is a serious good value bet at best odds of 7/1 (Paddy Power). Apart from the GMB rumours, there is also talk that McCluskey had a meeting to sound her out, so it is not inconceivable that Unite could also back her over Long-Bailey. Remember that McCluskey is seriously pissed off that there was no alternative to Long-Bailey from the far left, and that Nandy was always seen as being on the left of the PLP. In addition Nandy's more equivocal stance on Brexit is closer to McCluskey's position than is that of Long-Bailey.
    Would be nice, though probably more relevant to her chances to be preferred to Starmer by Long-Bailey supporters than to be preferred to Long-Bailey by Starmer supporters.

    Long-Bailey didn't want another referendum, but went along with it as a member of the shadow cabinet. I doubt it's Brexit that's driving Lexit supporters away from her.

    On Casino-Royale's original point, "vote for me because of my gender/heritage" sounds like a vote loser in almost any electorate (though it can help get on the ballot), but it certainly does no harm if other people mention it in passing when there is discussion on those topics.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008
    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    In my experience the police are only interested in pursuing easy convictions along the path of least resistance, rather than doing the right thing.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    https://twitter.com/jrmaidment/status/1217383513516904448

    Translations:

    Nandy: We win together = All ferrets to stop fighting in the sack and go and visit a small town

    Phillips: Speak truth. Win power = We were crap. Tell the voters that and we win.

    Thornberry: Fighting back together = All ferrets to stop fighting in the sack and take the fight to the Tories

    Long-Bailey: Our path to power = The Left keep power within a shrunken Labour party

    Starmer: Another future is possible = White, middle aged men have hope
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2020

    twitter.com/REWearmouth/status/1217218317347323905

    Says a member of the press pack who when the Andrew Norfolk first reported the scandal of Asian grooming gangs overwhelming down played the issue and smeared him as some sort of far right racist Islamophobe.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,849

    I am pretty gloomy at moment. Can't see any of this lot beating Trump.

    Three months ago Trump was 2.52 for WH2020. He is now 1.86. Quite a move.

    I still think he loses but my confidence in this is becoming rather ethereal.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729
    edited January 2020
    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.

    And there doesn't seem to be any great determination by their successors to investigate, as opposed to "learn lessons"...
    If the government provided the funding and gave me the necessary powers I could pull together a team of really tough no nonsense investigators that would really find out what was going on and not take any shit from these people. Not that any government would do this because they don’t really want to know and all pay obeisance to the law’n’order / sun shines out of the police’s arses nonsense.

    More seriously, in the story on Manchester there is reference to one of the girls being seen in a car which was traced to someone in the police and when this was noted the person finding this out being told not to go there. It would not surprise me one bit to find out there was more active involvement by some in the police and local councillors and other worthies in what was being done to the girls and not just in the doing nothing. It wasn’t just Asian taxi drivers who were abusing the girls, I suspect.
    It was take away owners as well?

    "Operation Augusta, was set up to see if there was a wider problem of child sexual exploitation in south Manchester. Officers managed to quickly identify a network of nearly 100 Asian men potentially involved in the abuse of scores of girls via takeaways in and around Rusholme, but the operation was shut down shortly afterwards due to resources, ‘rather than a sound understanding’ of whether lines of inquiry had been exhausted."
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2020
  • Inflation is 1.3% which is well below target and getting dangerously low.

    Funny all the people who constantly argue with me claiming that we should ignore inflation and that a falling pound sterling means prices are going up. Errr . . . no, that's not the case.
  • DavidL said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    Re Flybe “rescue”. If, as is reported, this has been done by “letting them off” payment of air passenger duty, surely this is a literal misuse of taxpayer money? Air passenger duty is paid by customers as a supplement to their air fare. The airline only role is to administer collection and payment to the Government. It is at no point “their money”. Arguably it should be held in a separate ring fenced account if their is any suggestion if it being used to subsidise the business. And yet this appears to be in effect what is happening.

    If Flybe doesn’t have to hand it over, then people should get their money back!

    AIUI payment of the tax is being deferred rather than written off. But it still looks like State Aid to me. It may be as well that the jurisdiction of the CJEU ends at the end of the month. Flybe is an important provider of regional flights in Scotland. It is important that these services are still available.
    Flybe is one of those things where you sit in London or the midlands and go - not important. But if you live in the Highlands or Devon / Cornwall it's the only way to get to where you want without 2 additional days of travel.

    And if you have to subsidise it to keep it going I don't think any Government would have any choice but to do so.
    Yep. Its a price you pay for having a truly crap rail service. Dundee has been casting about trying to get another airline to take on direct flights to London. Even with very cheap landing fees here its proven very difficult to make a go of this and previous efforts have not lasted long. The landing fees at City are killing for a marginal service.
    Loganair fly Dundee to Stansted
  • Nigel there, radically misunderstanding what the world sees as a joke.

    https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1217356349505527811?s=20
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729
    Keir and Nandy's efforts are the best to me. The word "power" doesn't sit right
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited January 2020
    Dura_Ace said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    I agree. I`ve lost a lot of respect for the police lately. I never thought I`d be saying that.
    I have had several run ins with them due to my 'spirited' driving history. They are pathological liars and almost always rely on people being stupid enough to incriminate themselves rather than doing any work.
    Driving at oh fuck hundred one quiet morning to RMAS in a shiny new sports car, many years ago, thinking I was on top of the world I was amazed, when pulled over by plod just by Twickenham, that despite production with some panache of my MOD 90, they proceeded to give me a ticket anyway.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited January 2020
    CCHQ should move to Oakham Castle. Now that Rutland is about to have its first Mickey Ds, staff will feel right at home there.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,729
    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    I agree. I`ve lost a lot of respect for the police lately. I never thought I`d be saying that.
    I have had several run ins with them due to my 'spirited' driving history. They are pathological liars and almost always rely on people being stupid enough to incriminate themselves rather than doing any work.
    Driving at oh fuck hundred one quiet morning to RMAS in a shiny new sports car, many years ago, thinking I was on top of the world I was amazed, when pulled over by plod just by Twickenham, that despite production with some panache of my MOD 90, they proceeded to give me a ticket anyway.
    "Got a bit of a Granada 2.9 ghia saloon...."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjaMs_ioJPA
  • Nigel there, radically misunderstanding what the world sees as a joke.

    https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1217356349505527811?s=20

    Of all the issues in this country whether Big Ben bongs or not ranks about nowhere whatsoever. Seriously, its a ridiculous non-issue.

    Though the idea it will cost half a million to make it bong is patently absurd. I don't believe for a second it cost that to make it bong for Armistice Day. But either way, who gives a flying fu....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    I agree. I`ve lost a lot of respect for the police lately. I never thought I`d be saying that.
    I have had several run ins with them due to my 'spirited' driving history. They are pathological liars and almost always rely on people being stupid enough to incriminate themselves rather than doing any work.
    Driving at oh fuck hundred one quiet morning to RMAS in a shiny new sports car, many years ago, thinking I was on top of the world I was amazed, when pulled over by plod just by Twickenham, that despite production with some panache of my MOD 90, they proceeded to give me a ticket anyway.
    "Got a bit of a Granada 2.9 ghia saloon...."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjaMs_ioJPA
    The fastest I've ever driven in a car was not in any sports car (I've had a couple) but, a few months after that incident, when one of them was off the road, in an insurance company courtesy Vauxhall Senator on the A303, again first thing in the morning I went at XXX mph. Interesting what happens to pressure inside a car at that speed.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880



    Starmer: Another future is possible = White, middle aged men have hope

    Just the right level of Chomsky.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    JohnO said:

    I'm puzzled by people who are delighted when the 'right kind of people' are upset by things.

    Fools can be right sometimes. The wise can err. And doing things or being pleased that they are done because it annoys those with differing views just seems an odd motivation to me.

    I regret to inform you that there are folk among us less high minded than your good self. The crowing, triumphalist Visigoths are at the gate, ravening for the blood and tears of the vanquished.
    I thought Nicola's exuberance at Jo Swinson's defeat was a tad excessive but even I would resile at the description of her as a crowing, triumphalist Visgoth. But you have a magnificent, much envied way with words.
    Why shouldnt she celebratesuch an event?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    Given the laughable failure of basic checks and deletions of records in paedophile case after paedophile case, at what point do we stop attributing this to incompetence and start to consider deliberate cover ups by rings of powerful people? What happened to Theresa May's review of all this? Strangely silently dropped?
    Manchester gives all indications of being a cover up.
    Not only have they managed to lose all records of the crucial meeting which decided to abandon the investigation into the clear ongoing abuse, those in charge have all 'forgotten' who was present at the meeting and what took place...
    Those decisions could only have been taken by the most senior officers, and it beggars belief that they are unable to recall what took place.

    And there doesn't seem to be any great determination by their successors to investigate, as opposed to "learn lessons"...
    If the government provided the funding and gave me the necessary powers I could pull together a team of really tough no nonsense investigators that would really find out what was going on and not take any shit from these people. Not that any government would do this because they don’t really want to know and all pay obeisance to the law’n’order / sun shines out of the police’s arses nonsense.

    More seriously, in the story on Manchester there is reference to one of the girls being seen in a car which was traced to someone in the police and when this was noted the person finding this out being told not to go there. It would not surprise me one bit to find out there was more active involvement by some in the police and local councillors and other worthies in what was being done to the girls and not just in the doing nothing. It wasn’t just Asian taxi drivers who were abusing the girls, I suspect.
    I suspect there was a very murky interface between police, their informants and some of these groomers. "Leave them be with their white-trash drugged-up slags, as long as they give us the odd tid-bit we can use to take villains off the street....".

    Er.....
    Or, worse, that some of the girls were seen as perks of the job and that money was being made out of them.

    It does stink to high heaven.

  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 431
    kinabalu said:

    I am pretty gloomy at moment. Can't see any of this lot beating Trump.

    Three months ago Trump was 2.52 for WH2020. He is now 1.86. Quite a move.

    I still think he loses but my confidence in this is becoming rather ethereal.
    I've been expecting him to win for a while now, and it's not so much about the individual candidates. The Democrats as a whole have doubled down on everything that was driving voters away in 2016.

    If they could have calmly talked about health and how America is losing the trade-war with China, they should be walking it. They didn't even need to talk much about what a vile human being Trump is. It's self-evident.
  • kle4 said:

    JohnO said:

    I'm puzzled by people who are delighted when the 'right kind of people' are upset by things.

    Fools can be right sometimes. The wise can err. And doing things or being pleased that they are done because it annoys those with differing views just seems an odd motivation to me.

    I regret to inform you that there are folk among us less high minded than your good self. The crowing, triumphalist Visigoths are at the gate, ravening for the blood and tears of the vanquished.
    I thought Nicola's exuberance at Jo Swinson's defeat was a tad excessive but even I would resile at the description of her as a crowing, triumphalist Visgoth. But you have a magnificent, much envied way with words.
    Why shouldnt she celebratesuch an event?
    Party Leaders should celebrate gaining seats. Nothing wrong in that whatsoever!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    I like Thornberry's except, it is aimed at those who voted not Cons. Which is not enough to win a GE, although is good for the matter at hand, namely the Lab leadership.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    TOPPING said:

    MOD 90.

    I once saw an RM Captain produce one to try and get a discount from an Uzbek pro in Bahrain. He had as much luck as you did with plod.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited January 2020
    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    MOD 90.

    I once saw an RM Captain produce one to try and get a discount from an Uzbek pro in Bahrain. He had as much luck as you did with plod.
    I hope they're happily married now. We from time to time would come close to losing a subaltern to true love at the local lap dancing club.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Its Bristol channel to the wash.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Not just that. There is a much more fundamental problem. All the slogans are about them and/or Labour. They are not about the voters or the country - though Starmer’s gets closest.
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 431
    Cyclefree said:

    Not just that. There is a much more fundamental problem. All the slogans are about them and/or Labour. They are not about the voters or the country - though Starmer’s gets closest.
    In fairness, it is an internal contest which is not being watched closely by others (political nerds aside). I don't think anyone's proposing to use their slogan in a general election.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    kicorse said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Not just that. There is a much more fundamental problem. All the slogans are about them and/or Labour. They are not about the voters or the country - though Starmer’s gets closest.
    In fairness, it is an internal contest which is not being watched closely by others (political nerds aside). I don't think anyone's proposing to use their slogan in a general election.
    Yep which is why I like Thornberry's. There's fight in the gal. Plus of course I'm large green on her (did I mention that?).
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    Given the laughable failure of basic checks and deletions of records in paedophile case after paedophile case, at what point do we stop attributing this to incompetence and start to consider deliberate cover ups by rings of powerful people? What happened to Theresa May's review of all this? Strangely silently dropped?

    And there doesn't seem to be any great determination by their successors to investigate, as opposed to "learn lessons"...
    If the government provided the funding and gave me the necessary powers I could pull together a team of really tough no nonsense investigators that would really find out what was going on and not take any shit from these people. Not that any government would do this because they don’t really want to know and all pay obeisance to the law’n’order / sun shines out of the police’s arses nonsense.

    More seriously, in the story on Manchester there is reference to one of the girls being seen in a car which was traced to someone in the police and when this was noted the person finding this out being told not to go there. It would not surprise me one bit to find out there was more active involvement by some in the police and local councillors and other worthies in what was being done to the girls and not just in the doing nothing. It wasn’t just Asian taxi drivers who were abusing the girls, I suspect.
    I suspect there was a very murky interface between police, their informants and some of these groomers. "Leave them be with their white-trash drugged-up slags, as long as they give us the odd tid-bit we can use to take villains off the street....".

    Er.....
    Or, worse, that some of the girls were seen as perks of the job and that money was being made out of them.

    It does stink to high heaven.

    The Guardian interview with Sophie Cookson, the actor currently playing Christine Keeler, is apposite.
    'Rarely, if ever, has it been seen for what it was: a sex scandal in which predatory men in late middle age procured teenage girls, then derided them as sex-crazed liars and schemers.'
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,849

    Of all the issues in this country whether Big Ben bongs or not ranks about nowhere whatsoever. Seriously, its a ridiculous non-issue.

    Though the idea it will cost half a million to make it bong is patently absurd. I don't believe for a second it cost that to make it bong for Armistice Day. But either way, who gives a flying fu....

    But Farage DOES give a fuck - very much so - and as the spiritual leader of Brexit his view should surely count for something.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,393

    Sheffield is in the Midlands?

    Ferfuxakes how can Yorkshire be in the Midlands? We’re the most Northern county you can find!
    The station is called Sheffield Midland. It is on the Midland Mainline.

    Must be in the Midlands then.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715

    Sheffield is in the Midlands?

    Ferfuxakes how can Yorkshire be in the Midlands? We’re the most Northern county you can find!
    The station is called Sheffield Midland. It is on the Midland Mainline.

    Must be in the Midlands then.
    When I lived in Sunderland the South was regarded as starting somewhere not far South of Middlesborough.
  • The Guardian interview with Sophie Cookson, the actor currently playing Christine Keeler, is apposite.
    'Rarely, if ever, has it been seen for what it was: a sex scandal in which predatory men in late middle age procured teenage girls, then derided them as sex-crazed liars and schemers.'

    Not disputing that but is it just me who is also disturbed by the infantilisation of adult women? Or even the implication that women cannot enjoy sex and have to be conned, compelled or coerced?
  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653
    kinabalu said:

    Of all the issues in this country whether Big Ben bongs or not ranks about nowhere whatsoever. Seriously, its a ridiculous non-issue.

    Though the idea it will cost half a million to make it bong is patently absurd. I don't believe for a second it cost that to make it bong for Armistice Day. But either way, who gives a flying fu....

    But Farage DOES give a fuck - very much so - and as the spiritual leader of Brexit his view should surely count for something.
    Farage is being deliberately antagonistic. They`ll be flag-waving celebrations outside of parliament on 31/1 whether or not Farage has a hand in organising it.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653
    TOPPING said:

    kicorse said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Not just that. There is a much more fundamental problem. All the slogans are about them and/or Labour. They are not about the voters or the country - though Starmer’s gets closest.
    In fairness, it is an internal contest which is not being watched closely by others (political nerds aside). I don't think anyone's proposing to use their slogan in a general election.
    Yep which is why I like Thornberry's. There's fight in the gal. Plus of course I'm large green on her (did I mention that?).
    I`m large green on her two. I think she`s fab.
  • kinabalu said:

    Of all the issues in this country whether Big Ben bongs or not ranks about nowhere whatsoever. Seriously, its a ridiculous non-issue.

    Though the idea it will cost half a million to make it bong is patently absurd. I don't believe for a second it cost that to make it bong for Armistice Day. But either way, who gives a flying fu....

    But Farage DOES give a fuck - very much so - and as the spiritual leader of Brexit his view should surely count for something.
    QTWAIN.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715

    The Guardian interview with Sophie Cookson, the actor currently playing Christine Keeler, is apposite.
    'Rarely, if ever, has it been seen for what it was: a sex scandal in which predatory men in late middle age procured teenage girls, then derided them as sex-crazed liars and schemers.'

    Not disputing that but is it just me who is also disturbed by the infantilisation of adult women? Or even the implication that women cannot enjoy sex and have to be conned, compelled or coerced?
    No, you are not.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,393
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    I agree. I`ve lost a lot of respect for the police lately. I never thought I`d be saying that.
    I have had several run ins with them due to my 'spirited' driving history. They are pathological liars and almost always rely on people being stupid enough to incriminate themselves rather than doing any work.
    Driving at oh fuck hundred one quiet morning to RMAS in a shiny new sports car, many years ago, thinking I was on top of the world I was amazed, when pulled over by plod just by Twickenham, that despite production with some panache of my MOD 90, they proceeded to give me a ticket anyway.
    "Got a bit of a Granada 2.9 ghia saloon...."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjaMs_ioJPA
    The fastest I've ever driven in a car was not in any sports car (I've had a couple) but, a few months after that incident, when one of them was off the road, in an insurance company courtesy Vauxhall Senator on the A303, again first thing in the morning I went at XXX mph. Interesting what happens to pressure inside a car at that speed.
    Negative pressure in the car, resulting in instant emptying of the bowels?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    Given the laughable failure of basic checks and deletions of records in paedophile case after paedophile case, at what point do we stop attributing this to incompetence and start to consider deliberate cover ups by rings of powerful people? What happened to Theresa May's review of all this? Strangely silently dropped?
    Manchester gives all indications of being a cover up.
    Not only have they managed to lose all records of the crucial meeting which decided to abandon the investigation into the clear ongoing abuse, those in charge have all 'forgotten' who was present at the meeting and what took place...
    Those decisions could only have been taken by the most senior officers, and it beggars belief that they are unable to recall what took place.

    And there doesn't seem to be any great determination by their successors to investigate, as opposed to "learn lessons"...
    I come from the next area down to where this gang was concentrated. A few thoughts,

    1. This was almost certainly one of those cases where the Police turned a blind eye to what was going on for fear of being called racist / laziness / happy to blame it on young white trash (depressingly like many of these cases);

    2. It would not surprise me if certain local Police and / or councillors were involved.

    3. The Asian community is important to Labour in that stretch of Manchester (Rusholme / Longsight / Levenshulme) - Labour's WWC base in Manchester is either North of the City Centre (ex-Cheetham Hill) or Wythenshawe. At the time, the LDs were making inroads into some of these seats so another reason for the politicians not to push it BUT

    4. This area is also right in the heartland or right next door to Manchester's gang scene (Moss Side is next door). At the time, the gangs were seen as a huge problem (remember "Gunchester"?) and the division running this area would also have the gang problem to deal with as well. Given the gang issue was seen as more pressing, I can see why (but still deplorable) why the grooming issue was pushed aside
  • StockyStocky Posts: 9,653

    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    In my experience the police are only interested in pursuing easy convictions along the path of least resistance, rather than doing the right thing.
    Yes, that`s why they nick, by camera, drivers at 35 in a 30 limit but ignore motorway tail-gaters (who are a dangerous menace).
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 431

    The Guardian interview with Sophie Cookson, the actor currently playing Christine Keeler, is apposite.
    'Rarely, if ever, has it been seen for what it was: a sex scandal in which predatory men in late middle age procured teenage girls, then derided them as sex-crazed liars and schemers.'

    Not disputing that but is it just me who is also disturbed by the infantilisation of adult women? Or even the implication that women cannot enjoy sex and have to be conned, compelled or coerced?
    I agree (the "women lack agency and need protecting" narrative is extremely anti-feminist), though it's a terrible context to bring it up in. These girls were children and did need protecting.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited January 2020
    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    Given the laughable failure of basic checks and deletions of records in paedophile case after paedophile case, at what point do we stop attributing this to incompetence and start to consider deliberate cover ups by rings of powerful people? What happened to Theresa May's review of all this? Strangely silently dropped?
    Manchester gives all indications of being a cover up.
    Not only have they managed to lose all records of the crucial meeting which decided to abandon the investigation into the clear ongoing abuse, those in charge have all 'forgotten' who was present at the meeting and what took place...
    Those decisions could only have been taken by the most senior officers, and it beggars belief that they are unable to recall what took place.

    And there doesn't seem to be any great determination by their successors to investigate, as opposed to "learn lessons"...
    If the government provided the funding and gave me the necessary powers I could pull together a team of really tough no nonsense investigators that would really find out what was going on and not take any shit from these people. Not that any government would do this because they don’t really want to know and all pay obeisance to the law’n’order / sun shines out of the police’s arses nonsense.

    More seriously, in the story on Manchester there is reference to one of the girls being seen in a car which was traced to someone in the police and when this was noted the person finding this out being told not to go there. It would not surprise me one bit to find out there was more active involvement by some in the police and local councillors and other worthies in what was being done to the girls and not just in the doing nothing. It wasn’t just Asian taxi drivers who were abusing the girls, I suspect.
    The entire story stinks.
    Are there not Police and Crime Commissioner elections this year ? Independent reformers running on the kind of platform you suggest might be interesting...
    Some of the new “Metro mayors” replace the P&CC for their county, and I think Greater Manchester is one. If so it’d be Andy Burnham that the buck stops with.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    I agree. I`ve lost a lot of respect for the police lately. I never thought I`d be saying that.
    I have had several run ins with them due to my 'spirited' driving history. They are pathological liars and almost always rely on people being stupid enough to incriminate themselves rather than doing any work.
    Driving at oh fuck hundred one quiet morning to RMAS in a shiny new sports car, many years ago, thinking I was on top of the world I was amazed, when pulled over by plod just by Twickenham, that despite production with some panache of my MOD 90, they proceeded to give me a ticket anyway.
    "Got a bit of a Granada 2.9 ghia saloon...."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjaMs_ioJPA
    The fastest I've ever driven in a car was not in any sports car (I've had a couple) but, a few months after that incident, when one of them was off the road, in an insurance company courtesy Vauxhall Senator on the A303, again first thing in the morning I went at XXX mph. Interesting what happens to pressure inside a car at that speed.
    Negative pressure in the car, resulting in instant emptying of the bowels?
    ha no. But def a difference in whatever pressure does inside a car. Same as if you open one window; I think because of the speed air entered the car via some other means? No idea perhaps someone knows.
  • kicorse said:

    The Guardian interview with Sophie Cookson, the actor currently playing Christine Keeler, is apposite.
    'Rarely, if ever, has it been seen for what it was: a sex scandal in which predatory men in late middle age procured teenage girls, then derided them as sex-crazed liars and schemers.'

    Not disputing that but is it just me who is also disturbed by the infantilisation of adult women? Or even the implication that women cannot enjoy sex and have to be conned, compelled or coerced?
    I agree (the "women lack agency and need protecting" narrative is extremely anti-feminist), though it's a terrible context to bring it up in. These girls were children and did need protecting.
    I trimmed the previous quotes before replying, so am talking solely about the Profumo Affair.
  • kle4 said:

    Its Bristol channel to the wash.
    So I would have the midlands-north line from the Dee to the Wash and the south-midlands line from Bristol channel to the wash
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    edited January 2020
    united-kingdom-map-max

    That feels about right - Derby is in the Midlands, Chesterfield is in the North. Stoke is on the border.

    Not sure about Gloucester, Cheltenham and Peterborough, think that line may need to be touch flatter.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Nigelb said:

    Gabs3 said:

    Cyclefree said:
    Given the laughable failure of basic checks and deletions of records in paedophile case after paedophile case, at what point do we stop attributing this to incompetence and start to consider deliberate cover ups by rings of powerful people? What happened to Theresa May's review of all this? Strangely silently dropped?

    And there doesn't seem to be any great determination by their successors to investigate, as opposed to "learn lessons"...
    If the government provided the funding and gave me the necessary powers I could pull together a team of really tough no nonsense investigators that would really find out what was going on and not take any shit from these people. Not that any government would do this because they don’t really want to know and all pay obeisance to the law’n’order / sun shines out of the police’s arses nonsense.

    More seriously, in the story on Manchester there is reference to one of the girls being seen in a car which was traced to someone in the police and when this was noted the person finding this out being told not to go there. It would not surprise me one bit to find out there was more active involvement by some in the police and local councillors and other worthies in what was being done to the girls and not just in the doing nothing. It wasn’t just Asian taxi drivers who were abusing the girls, I suspect.
    I suspect there was a very murky interface between police, their informants and some of these groomers. "Leave them be with their white-trash drugged-up slags, as long as they give us the odd tid-bit we can use to take villains off the street....".

    Er.....
    Or, worse, that some of the girls were seen as perks of the job and that money was being made out of them.

    It does stink to high heaven.

    The Guardian interview with Sophie Cookson, the actor currently playing Christine Keeler, is apposite.
    'Rarely, if ever, has it been seen for what it was: a sex scandal in which predatory men in late middle age procured teenage girls, then derided them as sex-crazed liars and schemers.'
    I have a family connection with those involved in the Profumo case and knew some of those involved over a period of years. The reality was a bit more nuanced than this actress is claiming. Some of the women involved were not children and did indeed lie, as did the men. Stephen Ward probably suffered a miscarriage of justice.

    Very different to the abuse of vulnerable children who were in the state’s care.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 1,919

    Nigel there, radically misunderstanding what the world sees as a joke.

    https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1217356349505527811?s=20

    Of all the issues in this country whether Big Ben bongs or not ranks about nowhere whatsoever. Seriously, its a ridiculous non-issue.

    Though the idea it will cost half a million to make it bong is patently absurd. I don't believe for a second it cost that to make it bong for Armistice Day. But either way, who gives a flying fu....
    Well, they’re currently refurbishing the tower, have removed the clapper from the bell & also the floor underneath it. The two most recent times the bell was wrung were presumably before the clapper was removed & the contractor used scaffolding (since removed) to provide a temporary floor. Presumably all this was in the original contract for the refurbishment.

    If I wanted to get to a £500k bill it would mostly come out of the cost of delaying other work that is currently being done on that level in order to re-install the clapper and b) re-install the temporary floor. The work itself is cheap - a few 10ks at most. But pushing a large project back by three weeks impacts on every other moving part. £500k is probably a “Look, do you /really/ want to do this? Because it’s going to be a massive pain in the backside & we quite honestly don’t need the hassle” quote from the contractor, but the actual cost could easily be much higher than you expect - demanding changes in the middle of a large, complex project with many moving parts often is.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,287

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Stocky said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The Times covers the story in detail.

    The police, IMO, are not fit for purpose. Root and branch reform of them is needed starting with (a) teaching them the basic principles underpinning criminal law; and (b) investigative tradecraft. They don’t understand the former and are rubbish at the latter.
    I agree. I`ve lost a lot of respect for the police lately. I never thought I`d be saying that.
    I have had several run ins with them due to my 'spirited' driving history. They are pathological liars and almost always rely on people being stupid enough to incriminate themselves rather than doing any work.
    Driving at oh fuck hundred one quiet morning to RMAS in a shiny new sports car, many years ago, thinking I was on top of the world I was amazed, when pulled over by plod just by Twickenham, that despite production with some panache of my MOD 90, they proceeded to give me a ticket anyway.
    "Got a bit of a Granada 2.9 ghia saloon...."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjaMs_ioJPA
    The fastest I've ever driven in a car was not in any sports car (I've had a couple) but, a few months after that incident, when one of them was off the road, in an insurance company courtesy Vauxhall Senator on the A303, again first thing in the morning I went at XXX mph. Interesting what happens to pressure inside a car at that speed.
    Negative pressure in the car, resulting in instant emptying of the bowels?
    That only happens when the drivers sees the blues and twos in his/her rear view mirror...
  • PhilPhil Posts: 1,919
    (Actually, given all the working at height malarky going on, the work probably isn't /that/ cheap either)
This discussion has been closed.