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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Conservative party then and now – the need to connect w

SystemSystem Posts: 11,017
edited February 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Conservative party then and now – the need to connect with a wider public

Over the past half century just three Tory leaders have led their party to victory with overall majorities at general elections. They were Heath in 1970, Thatcher in 1979, 1983 and 1987 and the last, John Major, 22 years ago in 1992. What they have in common is that they came from modest backgrounds and were all state school educated.

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    One man does not a party make. Sadly one school does.
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    An interesting piece, Mike: and of course of the other two leaders to have secured a majority in the last 50 years, Wilson and Blair, one was state-educated and one was privately-educated. It's a very small sample, but it does seem to substantiate the basic point that you stand a much better chance of getting into No 10 with a majority if you went to a state school.

    It's a strong poster, but I don't like the way it's worded. In a democracy, isn't it ultimately "the people" that make a Prime Minister? Do the Conservative Party really think that the office of Prime Minister is something that it is within their gift to bestow on whomsoever they choose? Just a thought.
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    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    edited February 2014
    edit error in posting
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    Mike - not sure the figures given in this post are too relevant. If the point is to suggest that state-school educated leaders have a better chance of winning than public-school figures, it is not demonstrated by this. After all the Conservative Party have had plenty of state-school educated leaders who also failed to win majorities in this period - Hague and Howard for instance.

    I agree that the Tory Party have a perennial problem about making sure that they seem "in touch". However I am less convinced that the correlation with school background is as obvious as many would assume. It is more to do with personality, rhetoric and the shape of policy direction which make people think that a leader is worth taking a punt on. Boris is the obvious counterpoint - very few would not know he is a PST; but at the same time it does not deter enough people to stop his political career (thus far). He has not been tested at the national level but still I think the point stands.

    One benefit which people never credit enough is that natural 'relaxed demeanour" which public school backgrounds tend to cultivate (much more so than an Oxbridge background). Witness not just Cameron but also Boris, Blair and others. This is something which I think is pretty positive in most circumstances other than armed national conflict.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Why do people on the left get so obsessed about Eton? It's a decent school, which gives (mainly) brightish kids a good education. Most of them go on to middle ranking jobs in the professions. Nothing more, nothing less.

    I frankly doubt that Cameron's school had the smallest impact on the vote in Wythenshawe. Labour would most likely still have won even with Major in charge. (And, by the way, I wish the Tories had a 12.1% majority in Wythenshawe!)
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Lucy Kellaway wrote a recent, characteristically perceptive, article about OE aged in their 50s:

    ...The second was how relatively undistinguished their careers had turned out to be. Apart from one senior politician and one former newspaper editor, they were a middling group of lawyers, property investors and fund managers, rich by national standards, but disappointing if you consider their start in life. They arrived at that school at 13, clever and mostly from wealthy families, to spend five years wearing tailcoats and becoming members of one of the world’s most elite networks. Yet there they were, in their prime, and it had amounted to not very much at all.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b8dc242c-8e83-11e3-98c6-00144feab7de.html#axzz2tN4qHEOX

    [Paywall, but you can get several articles a month free]
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,974
    Surely the point is that an Etonian background means some at least privilege, or contacts. "Not what you know but who you know" always helps. Rising to the top of an organisation without that sort of support means that the riser has ability, competence a degree of low cunning and the natural ability to impress.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Surely the point is that an Etonian background means some at least privilege, or contacts. "Not what you know but who you know" always helps. Rising to the top of an organisation without that sort of support means that the riser has ability, competence a degree of low cunning and the natural ability to impress.

    Nah - it means that your parents have money and, perhaps, contacts. Even in my day the best that could get you was an interview (which is a big thing, I admit). But these days even that wouldn't make a difference. I wouldn't give an OE an interview over someone from another school. That said, I probably would give a preference to someone from Oxford (my other alma mater) but only because I see it as a signal that someone is pretty smart
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    woody662woody662 Posts: 255
    If the party is feeling bold and Osborne feels it can't be him, Sajid Javid is the one to watch IMO. None of the urgent cabinet alternatives would really change the game.
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    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-26178223

    Money no object? There is no new money. Read the Update at the foot of this BBC article.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited February 2014
    It's an interesting article that demonstrates how far the Tory party has retreated. It's a shadow of its former self. Both Thatcher and Major would not have made it to the top today.

    On the Eton thing, all parties suffer from nepotism and narrow cliques.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Charles said:

    Why do people on the left get so obsessed about Eton? It's a decent school, which gives (mainly) brightish kids a good education. Most of them go on to middle ranking jobs in the professions. Nothing more, nothing less.

    I frankly doubt that Cameron's school had the smallest impact on the vote in Wythenshawe. Labour would most likely still have won even with Major in charge. (And, by the way, I wish the Tories had a 12.1% majority in Wythenshawe!)

    As I've posted before, the school is irrelevant, it's university that counts.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Does any party connect with the wider public anymore? Both Labour and Conservatives struggle outside their comfort zones. The LDs do not even have a comfort zone, and the kippers are topping out in terms percentage, with modest support everywhere but not enough to win a single seat.

    I agree that the next leader of the Tories will probably be from a more modest background, which is what state educated really means. Cameron does remain popular within his own party, and has the lead over Ed Miliband in popularity. Class isn't everything.
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    If the article is to be believed then bringing back grammar schools to give bright working class kids a chance would be a good start, but none of the political classes want to do that. I have heard all the arguments against, including OGH, and frankly they are rubbish.

    Maybe the Tories would have done better with David Davies in charge, is that what the post is implying?

    As for the Old Etonian bit, it's inverted snobbery and a very poor trait.

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    Jonathan said:

    On the Eton thing, all parties suffer from nepotism and narrow cliques.

    That's the basic problem, right there. Both the Labour party and the Conservative party are dominated by small inward-looking circles who have next to no experience of life lived outside politics. None of them have any real understanding of the practical effects of the policies that they propound.

    Ed Miliband speaks at length about the ills of British business, but he has absolutely no experience of working in one, understanding the dynamics of a business or the pressures that they face. Nor for that matter has Nick Clegg. David Cameron's experience of working in a business is pretty limited too.

    Similar observations could be made about living on benefits and many other aspects of daily life that millions live daily and which our masters casually legislate about.

    The problem is not what school the Prime Minister has been to, it's the strong impression that politics is now for a small caste of gilded and remote talking heads. This will not change any time soon, because those at the top don't see that they're the problem. But until it changes, the public's alienation will grow.
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    EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Why is it that in relation to Tory politicians, attending a public school or coming from a wealthy background is somehow seen as "wicked" and "detached" but its ok if one happens to be a Labour or LibDem politician?

    My MP is a Viscount (and distant cousin) grandson of a Baronet who was made a Viscount. Another Scottish LibDem is a Baronet, also grandson of as it happens a Tory MP who was made a Baronet.

    We all know Harrriet Harman attended the same school, St Paul's as George Osborne. He is berated for being heir to a Baronet (which Kevin Maguire goes on about ad nauseam) but she is 1st cousin of an Earl and daughter of a Harley St practitioner, hardly your ordinary GP. She sent both her sons to selective schools rather than the local comprehensive.

    Chucka is the grandson of a High Court judge and known to make off the cuff remarks about the working class. The Labour front bench is stuffed with Honourables but that doesn't seem to stop the left referring to privilege as though it is some sort of Tory disease.
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    If the article is to be believed then bringing back grammar schools to give bright working class kids a chance would be a good start, but none of the political classes want to do that. I have heard all the arguments against, including OGH, and frankly they are rubbish.

    Maybe the Tories would have done better with David Davies in charge, is that what the post is implying?

    As for the Old Etonian bit, it's inverted snobbery and a very poor trait.

    Have you seen this FT article which demolishes the case for grammar schools about as comprehensively as you could imagine?

    http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    "You can see that poor children do dramatically worse in selective areas.

    There is an narrower idea out there in the ether that grammar schools are better for propelling poor children to the very top of the tree. But, again, that is not true. Poor children are less likely to score very highly at GCSE in grammar areas than the rest."
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    What's OGH doing serving up an old red herring for breakfast.

    Personality and policies trump the Prime Ministers education by a trawler load of fish. Take Mike's dateline back another few years and you can add Churchill, Eden, MacMillan and almost the most fishy of them all Alec Douglas-Home.

    Were the punters and especially Labour voters concerned about Blair's attending Fettes or LibDems about Clegg ? Answer - No.

    Politicians have precious little say about their secondary education and clearly aren't punished by the voters because the latter understand their educational aspirations as parents.

    Should the Conservatives find an outstanding candidate for leader then the sum total of their education at Eton, Harrow, Rugby, Uppingham or a score of other private schools that will have any effect on the punters will be close to zero.
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    antifrank said:

    If the article is to be believed then bringing back grammar schools to give bright working class kids a chance would be a good start, but none of the political classes want to do that. I have heard all the arguments against, including OGH, and frankly they are rubbish.

    Maybe the Tories would have done better with David Davies in charge, is that what the post is implying?

    As for the Old Etonian bit, it's inverted snobbery and a very poor trait.

    Have you seen this FT article which demolishes the case for grammar schools about as comprehensively as you could imagine?

    http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    "You can see that poor children do dramatically worse in selective areas.

    There is an narrower idea out there in the ether that grammar schools are better for propelling poor children to the very top of the tree. But, again, that is not true. Poor children are less likely to score very highly at GCSE in grammar areas than the rest."
    Like I said I have seen all the arguments against and they are rubbish.

    And I was a poor child in a selective area and I did OK
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    If the article is to be believed then bringing back grammar schools to give bright working class kids a chance would be a good start, but none of the political classes want to do that. I have heard all the arguments against, including OGH, and frankly they are rubbish.

    Maybe the Tories would have done better with David Davies in charge, is that what the post is implying?

    As for the Old Etonian bit, it's inverted snobbery and a very poor trait.

    Nigel, I think OGH is saying what he says he's saying...

    On grammar schools, no one doubts that they were the best system yet devised for educating bright working-class and lower-middle class kids. The objection is not to grammar schools, but to secondary moderns. The objection to comprehensives is of course that too many of them are just secondary moderns by another name. Why so? Because the English (this discussion does not apply to Wales or Scotland) don't appreciate education. If UKIP want another popular policy, a promise to hold a referendum on closing down Oxbridge would probably do better than most...
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    antifrank said:

    If the article is to be believed then bringing back grammar schools to give bright working class kids a chance would be a good start, but none of the political classes want to do that. I have heard all the arguments against, including OGH, and frankly they are rubbish.

    Maybe the Tories would have done better with David Davies in charge, is that what the post is implying?

    As for the Old Etonian bit, it's inverted snobbery and a very poor trait.

    Have you seen this FT article which demolishes the case for grammar schools about as comprehensively as you could imagine?

    http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    "You can see that poor children do dramatically worse in selective areas.

    There is an narrower idea out there in the ether that grammar schools are better for propelling poor children to the very top of the tree. But, again, that is not true. Poor children are less likely to score very highly at GCSE in grammar areas than the rest."
    Like I said I have seen all the arguments against and they are rubbish.

    And I was a poor child in a selective area and I did OK
    OK, if you're just going to ignore a comprehensive analysis of results, you're beyond reach.
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    As for the Old Etonian bit, it's inverted snobbery and a very poor trait.

    Actually the reason why Eton gets the focus isn't snobbery against one school, its the snobbery displayed by its alumni towards everyone else.

    I honestly don't care about people's background, what school they went to, who their father was, its what they do that matters. Cameron coming from Eton wouldn't be an issue is he spoke human and didn't have a policy platform which was so utterly disconnected from most people's reality. As it is he and his fellow travellers sneer down their noses at people, hectoring and abusing anyone who dares disagree (especially women in the HoC) and are seen to favour their own with policies that smash the poor and middle yet fine cash to give their own.

    Were I Eton I would be horrified at what Cameron has done to a proud old school. He has destroyed its reputation so that to so many now "Eton" is synonymous with "cretin".
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    Good morning, everyone.

    What school did the Mogg go to? I'd vote for him.

    It's rather unfair to judge people by the school they went to. I fail to see why snobbery is acceptable when you're sneering at those who, when 11, were sent to a fee-paying school by their parents.

    Mr. Anatole, welcome to pb.com. Did you used to post here, some time ago, or am I misremembering?

    Mr. Antifrank, you make a very good point. Schooling and university matter less than life experience. Politicians seems to go from university to a party role, SPAD-ship and then get catapulted into a safe constituency.
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    antifrank said:

    antifrank said:

    If the article is to be believed then bringing back grammar schools to give bright working class kids a chance would be a good start, but none of the political classes want to do that. I have heard all the arguments against, including OGH, and frankly they are rubbish.

    Maybe the Tories would have done better with David Davies in charge, is that what the post is implying?

    As for the Old Etonian bit, it's inverted snobbery and a very poor trait.

    Have you seen this FT article which demolishes the case for grammar schools about as comprehensively as you could imagine?

    http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    "You can see that poor children do dramatically worse in selective areas.

    There is an narrower idea out there in the ether that grammar schools are better for propelling poor children to the very top of the tree. But, again, that is not true. Poor children are less likely to score very highly at GCSE in grammar areas than the rest."
    Like I said I have seen all the arguments against and they are rubbish.

    And I was a poor child in a selective area and I did OK
    OK, if you're just going to ignore a comprehensive analysis of results, you're beyond reach.
    Instead of a so called comprehensive analysis of results why don't you give us the actual results? Why not tell us how far education in this country has fallen down the ladder since grammar schools were abolished?
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    I_B,

    "Because the English (this discussion does not apply to Wales or Scotland) don't appreciate education."

    A generalisation, but sadly true. Labour's view that education of deprived kids would benefit a lot by more money falls down where the parents have no interest anyway. And probably why some deprived communities with parents from from overseas do very well.

    Very few of our class went to grammar school but the two or three that did had parents with aspiration for heir children.

    And when my children went to the local comprehensive school, to be called a "swot" was a badge of shame.

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    If the article is to be believed then bringing back grammar schools to give bright working class kids a chance would be a good start, but none of the political classes want to do that. I have heard all the arguments against, including OGH, and frankly they are rubbish.

    Maybe the Tories would have done better with David Davies in charge, is that what the post is implying?

    As for the Old Etonian bit, it's inverted snobbery and a very poor trait.

    Nigel, I think OGH is saying what he says he's saying...

    On grammar schools, no one doubts that they were the best system yet devised for educating bright working-class and lower-middle class kids. The objection is not to grammar schools, but to secondary moderns. The objection to comprehensives is of course that too many of them are just secondary moderns by another name. Why so? Because the English (this discussion does not apply to Wales or Scotland) don't appreciate education. If UKIP want another popular policy, a promise to hold a referendum on closing down Oxbridge would probably do better than most...
    I live in an area where we still have grammar schools, my youngest two passed the 11 plus and did well, but my eldest granddaughter did not and went to the local comprehensive.

    She did much better than expected, so while I appreciate your argument about the old secondary moderns the reality in my area is that if you don't pass and go to grammar school then you will still get a good education. Maybe having a grammar school system drags the whole education system in the area up?
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    Mr. CD13, a friend of mine went to a comprehensive and said much the same. Thankfully, he was sensible as well as clever and didn't throw away any prospect of good results to be 'cool'.
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    Maybe we should ban PPE graduates and Oxford graduates from political office. There'd be no-one left!
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    A child who did not pass the 11+ is not going to a comprehensive. They are going to a secondary modern. A comprehensive school includes the brightest as well as the bottom end.

    Antifranks link to a mathematical analysis cannot be dismissed with anecdote. It explains why it is the richer classes rather than the poorer ones that call for a return to selection.

    Schooling for politicians matters, but more important is to have life experience outside the bubble.

    If the article is to be believed then bringing back grammar schools to give bright working class kids a chance would be a good start, but none of the political classes want to do that. I have heard all the arguments against, including OGH, and frankly they are rubbish.

    Maybe the Tories would have done better with David Davies in charge, is that what the post is implying?

    As for the Old Etonian bit, it's inverted snobbery and a very poor trait.

    Nigel, I think OGH is saying what he says he's saying...

    On grammar schools, no one doubts that they were the best system yet devised for educating bright working-class and lower-middle class kids. The objection is not to grammar schools, but to secondary moderns. The objection to comprehensives is of course that too many of them are just secondary moderns by another name. Why so? Because the English (this discussion does not apply to Wales or Scotland) don't appreciate education. If UKIP want another popular policy, a promise to hold a referendum on closing down Oxbridge would probably do better than most...
    I live in an area where we still have grammar schools, my youngest two passed the 11 plus and did well, but my eldest granddaughter did not and went to the local comprehensive.

    She did much better than expected, so while I appreciate your argument about the old secondary moderns the reality in my area is that if you don't pass and go to grammar school then you will still get a good education. Maybe having a grammar school system drags the whole education system in the area up?
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    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    This country's (and OGH's) preoccupation with class is one reason why the country does not maximise its potential. It underpins the politics of envy which ironically is Milliband's motivating political story alongside a so-called One Nation story.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Dr Fox,

    "A comprehensive school includes the brightest as well as the bottom end."

    I went to a grammar and the ethos was much more on aspiration. My son went to a comprehensive where the ethos was to avoid being seen as brainy. We both ended up with PhDs but parental aspiration was important. Many kids on our estate never even got to the start line. There's only so much a school can do.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Class Warfare: Part I
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Liberal [Democrat] Party Leaders
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    1945-56 Clement Davies Llanfyllin CS Cambridge Barrister
    1956-67 Jo Grimond Eton Oxford Barrister
    1967-76 Jeremy Thorpe Eton Oxford Barrister
    1976-88 David Steele Dumbarton GS Edinburgh Lawyer
    1988-99 Paddy Ashdown Bedford Royal Marines
    1999-06 Charles Kennedy Lochaber HS Glasgow BBC
    2006-07 Menzies Campbell Hillhead GS Glasgow Lawyer
    2007- Nick Clegg Westminster Cambridge Eurocrat
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Labour Party Leaders
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    1945-55 Clement Attlee Haileybury Oxford Barrister
    1955-63 Hugh Gaitskell Winchester Oxford Eoonomist
    1963-76 Harold Wilson Royds Hall GS Oxford Economist
    1976-80 James Callaghan Portsmouth SS RN, IR
    1980-83 Michael Foot Leighton Park Oxford Journalist
    1983-92 Neil Kinnock Lewis GS S. Wales Teacher
    1992-94 John Smith Dunoon GS Glasgow Barrister
    1994-07 Tony Blair Fettes Oxford Barrister
    2007-10 Gordon Brown Kirkcaldy HS Edinburgh Lecturer
    2010- Ed Miliband Haverstock CS Oxford SpAd
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    Conservative Party Leaders
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
    1945-55 Winston Churchill Harrow Journalist
    1955-57 Anthony Eden Eton Oxford Army
    1957-63 Harold Macmillan Eton Oxford Publisher
    1963-65 Alec Douglas-Home Eton Oxford Cricketer
    1965-74 Edward Heath Chatham H. GS Oxford Civil Ser.
    1975-90 Margaret Thatcher Kesteven GS Oxford Barrister
    1990-97 John Major Rutlish GS Banker
    1997-01 William Hague Ripon GS Oxford McKinsey
    2001-03 Iain Duncan-Smith HMS Conway Army
    2003-05 Michael Howard Llanelli GS Cambridge Barrister
    2005- David Cameron Eton Oxford PR & SpAd
    -----------------------------------------------------------------
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited February 2014
    Class Warfare: Part II
    Summary                          Lib    Lab    Con    Total
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Public School 4 4 5 13
    Eton 2 - 4 6
    Grammar School 2 4 5 11
    Other Independent 1 1
    State & Services 1 2 1 4
    --- --- --- ---
    8 10 11 29

    Oxford 2 6 7 15
    Cambridge 2 1 3
    Glasgow 2 1 3
    Edinburgh 1 1 2
    Other 1 1

    Military 1 1 2
    No University 3 3
    --- --- --- ---
    8 10 11 29

    Barrister 3 3 2 8
    Other Lawyer 2 2
    Military (excl. War) 1 1 2 4
    Politics (Non elected) 1 1 2
    University Academic 3 3
    Other Teaching 1 1 2
    Media 1 1 2
    Business (incl. PR & Cons.) 4 4
    Civil Service 1 1
    Sport 1 1
    --- --- --- ---
    8 10 11 2
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited February 2014
    Class Warfare: Part III

    Conclusion.

    If you want to become PM, get your parents to sent you to a public school (the grammar school route is now only available to very few); get into Oxford; then qualify as a barrister.

    There is very little to distinguish between the parties in the backgrounds of their post war leaders. Conservatives have a bias towards Eton but all parties have draw a similar proportion of their leaders from independent schools. Labour have a bias towards academic and media experience; Tories fowards business and military. 23 out of 24 who had a university degree went to just four universities, with Oxford dominating.

    There is nothing to suggest that leaders who do not fit the obvious pattern achieve greater electoral success. The non-public school boys are Davies, Steele, Kennedy and Campbell for the Lib Dems; Wilson, Callaghan, Kinnock, Smith and Brown for Labour; and Thatcher, Major, Hague, IDS and Howard for the Tories. As mixed a bunch of elecoral success and failure as you can get. Most benefitted from going to Grammar Schools (those schools which have subsequently changed to full comprehensive status were selective when the leaders attended).

    It does look like OGH has allowed his prejudices to get the better of him. Perhaps Charles can arrange for Robert S's children to go to Eton. The Smithson's need a PM in the line!
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,951
    antifrank said:

    If the article is to be believed then bringing back grammar schools to give bright working class kids a chance would be a good start, but none of the political classes want to do that. I have heard all the arguments against, including OGH, and frankly they are rubbish.

    Maybe the Tories would have done better with David Davies in charge, is that what the post is implying?

    As for the Old Etonian bit, it's inverted snobbery and a very poor trait.

    Have you seen this FT article which demolishes the case for grammar schools about as comprehensively as you could imagine?

    http://blogs.ft.com/ftdata/2013/01/28/grammar-school-myths/

    "You can see that poor children do dramatically worse in selective areas.

    There is an narrower idea out there in the ether that grammar schools are better for propelling poor children to the very top of the tree. But, again, that is not true. Poor children are less likely to score very highly at GCSE in grammar areas than the rest."
    I get very nervous about the screams of 'bring back the grammar schools' for this very reason. The very nature of the calls concentrates on the grammar schools and the brighter pupils, when the focus needs also to be on giving less bright pupils the skills they need for everyday life.

    The current education system is broken, but concentrating on the top-end would be a disaster.

    (( know some on here, when pressed, call for grammar schools and brilliant schools for kids who do not make it into grammars. But this still gets distilled down into 'bring back grammars!' and concentration on the top end)
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    perdix said:

    This country's (and OGH's) preoccupation with class is one reason why the country does not maximise its potential. It underpins the politics of envy which ironically is Milliband's motivating political story alongside a so-called One Nation story.

    Far better to live in a country pre-occupied with class than in one pre-occupied with race (or clan, e.g. Syria). Perhaps you'd like to live in a country pre-occupied with greed?

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    It's not the school that matters - its the perception. You can go to Eton and come out normal. You can go to some northern nameless school and turn up like Eric Pickles. Cameron being an Old Etonian wouldn't matter if he wasn't seen to be a sneering snob smashing the lives of those beneath him.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,231
    I agree with Mike on this one. It shouldn't matter and it is irrational but it does. Here's why.

    Tories believe in a small state and low tax. They believe in this not because they are greedy or selfish but because they genuinely believe that an economy ordered in that way will produce the most wealth for the country and that, on average, the people will be better off.

    They are right of course but it is so, so easy to portray this as indifference to those who do not get better off, to those left behind and to the inequalities of wealth that result.

    So it is much more important for a tory to look connected to ordinary people and to be aware of their concerns. Blair did not have this problem because he was supposedly leading a party for the left behind. Tories do.

    I think Cameron is extremely smart and able. His tutor at Oxford said he was one of the brightest he had ever taught. He could have been succesful in a range of careers but chose politics because he is committed to public service and cares about people. It is just that coming from his background it will never look that way.
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    A child who did not pass the 11+ is not going to a comprehensive. They are going to a secondary modern. A comprehensive school includes the brightest as well as the bottom end.

    Actually this may not be true - many of the surviving grammar schools recruit from quite far afield. So it is quite possible for the choice to be between a local comp and a grammar, rather than a "secondary modern" and a grammar. (The latter description is more adequate if the non-grammar school is in the same borough as the grammar.)

    Of course this does mean that many, theoretically "comprehensive", schools actually have some of the brightest students (or those whose parents have worked hardest to tutor them through the selection tests) "creamed off". I read a very thorough study of this last year, which alas I can't track down offhand, which suggested about 90% of schools in England are affected by academic selection to some extent (i.e. either the school is selective, or the school is competing forstudents with other schools which are selective). The effect may not be very strong: for many schools it may be only 1%-2% of students they are "losing" in this manner. For a secondary modern in a borough full of selective schools, that might rise above 20%.

    The 90% figure is believable when you bear in mind that some non-grammar schools use academic selection for students outside a certain catchment area, and grammar schools are a magnet for children from surprisingly far away. (If you know how to recognise the school uniforms, there are quite a few schoolkids in Tower Hamlets who attend grammar school in Southend-on-Sea...) When you throw in the number of kids taking full scholarship exams for private schools, academic selection is clearly not dead. The commentariat tend to write as if it were.
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    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,890

    It's a very small sample, but it does seem to substantiate the basic point that you stand a much better chance of getting into No 10 with a majority if you went to a state school.

    Classic probability fail!

    The probability you win a GE given you went to state school is NOT THE SAME as the probability you went to state school given you won a GE.
    The first is very roughly on in 10 million, the latter roughly a half.

    To make your claim you need to compare the ratio of state schooled PMs to number of state schooled citizens against the ratio of private schooled PMs to private schooled citizens. I don't have the numbers but I would be amazed if the latter is not substantially larger.


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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited February 2014
    DavidL said:

    I agree with Mike on this one. It shouldn't matter and it is irrational but it does. Here's why.



    So it is much more important for a tory to look connected to ordinary people and to be aware of their concerns. Blair did not have this problem because he was supposedly leading a party for the left behind. Tories do.

    I think Cameron is extremely smart and able. His tutor at Oxford said he was one of the brightest he had ever taught. He could have been succesful in a range of careers but chose politics because he is committed to public service and cares about people. It is just that coming from his background it will never look that way.

    Spot on. That's the issue facing the Tories which having the current leadership makes much more difficult.

    Nadine Dorries got this right: "Posh boys not knowing the price of bread"


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    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,814
    Danny565 said:

    My first thought was that it's encouraging for the Lib Dems.

    Given that they're undoubtedly going to be all-but-abandoning any seat where they're third or otherwise out of contention and pouring their resources into their held seats and a handful of carefully chosen targets, they need for those latter seats to have their vote decrease by less than the average around the country (the national swing).

    This mathematically requires that the abandoned seats decrease by more than the average, in order for the numbers to balance.

    The decrease was by 17.4%, compared to 10-14% for the average according to the polls. Which implies that in other seats, the damage to the Lib Dems is less than the average.

    As an example, if the Lib Dems drop by 14% on average (from 24% to 10%) and in the 500 worst seats for them, they drop by an average of 17.4% (which, of course, is difficult in seats where they hold under 17.4% of the vote to start with, but this is as an example for the maths), the drop in the remaining 132 mainland seats would have to be an average of only 0.9%.

    The problem with this theory is that, in a lot of seats, the Lib Dems dropping 17% is impossible because they didn't get 17% in 2010 to start off with - so that bumps up the average fall in their vote in seats they hold in order to square the national fall in their vote.
    .
    Yeah - so I went and had a look at the numbers of seats involved at the different levels of support.
    At the 0.5%, there were none. At 5-10%, 10. At 10-15%, 83. At 15-20%, 179. At 20-25%, 132. At 25-30%, 83. At 30-35%, 48. At 35-40%, 35. At 40%+, 61.
    The 5-10%-ers can realistically lose only an average of 5%; the 10-15%-ers about 10%, the 15-20%-ers an average of 14%. If those between 20-35% lose an average of 17.5% each, then the 61 seats at 40%+ would lose an average of about 3.8% each, considerably better than the polls suggest.

    Basically, the post was in reaction to surprise at people reacting by stating that a big loss of votes in a no-hope lower-middle (20-25% support) Lib Dem seat was bad for them. It's exactly the sort of pattern they should be hoping for if they want to hold support in their top-end seats. The numbers given are just to illustrate the point. Hell, if they'd lost 20% of their support (and that was indicative of all the 20-35% range, with meltdown to deposit levels in the sub-20% range), that could imply minimal loss in all 96 of their top seats! (assuming that they poll around 10% in total; I'd personally expect some recovery by then anyway)

    Basically, the real summary here is that more variance in the Lib Dem vote, especially concentrated in bigger falls in their no-hope seats, is the best crumb of comfort they could see right now.
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    A child who did not pass the 11+ is not going to a comprehensive. They are going to a secondary modern. A comprehensive school includes the brightest as well as the bottom end.

    Antifranks link to a mathematical analysis cannot be dismissed with anecdote. It explains why it is the richer classes rather than the poorer ones that call for a return to selection.

    Schooling for politicians matters, but more important is to have life experience outside the bubble.


    If the article is to be believed then bringing back grammar schools to give bright working class kids a chance would be a good start, but none of the political classes want to do that. I have heard all the arguments against, including OGH, and frankly they are rubbish.

    Maybe the Tories would have done better with David Davies in charge, is that what the post is implying?

    As for the Old Etonian bit, it's inverted snobbery and a very poor trait.

    Nigel, I think OGH is saying what he says he's saying...

    On grammar schools, no one doubts that they were the best system yet devised for educating bright working-class and lower-middle class kids. The objection is not to grammar schools, but to secondary moderns. The objection to comprehensives is of course that too many of them are just secondary moderns by another name. Why so? Because the English (this discussion does not apply to Wales or Scotland) don't appreciate education. If UKIP want another popular policy, a promise to hold a referendum on closing down Oxbridge would probably do better than most...
    I live in an area where we still have grammar schools, my youngest two passed the 11 plus and did well, but my eldest granddaughter did not and went to the local comprehensive.

    She did much better than expected, so while I appreciate your argument about the old secondary moderns the reality in my area is that if you don't pass and go to grammar school then you will still get a good education. Maybe having a grammar school system drags the whole education system in the area up?
    That just makes my point stronger. My granddaughter went to a dreaded secondary modern and did much better than we expected.
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    eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,890

    Why so? Because the English (this discussion does not apply to Wales or Scotland) don't appreciate education.

    As a generalisation I agree. In most counties teaching is held as a highly respected career, in England it's "what you do if you can't do anything else".
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited February 2014
    What an unpleasant class obsessed thread. Thank goodness some people still don't care what school a person went to and prefer not to prejudge a character.

    Depressing stuff.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,331
    antifrank said:

    Jonathan said:

    On the Eton thing, all parties suffer from nepotism and narrow cliques.

    That's the basic problem, right there. Both the Labour party and the Conservative party are dominated by small inward-looking circles who have next to no experience of life lived outside politics. None of them have any real understanding of the practical effects of the policies that they propound.

    Ed Miliband speaks at length about the ills of British business, but he has absolutely no experience of working in one, understanding the dynamics of a business or the pressures that they face. Nor for that matter has Nick Clegg. David Cameron's experience of working in a business is pretty limited too.

    Similar observations could be made about living on benefits and many other aspects of daily life that millions live daily and which our masters casually legislate about.

    The problem is not what school the Prime Minister has been to, it's the strong impression that politics is now for a small caste of gilded and remote talking heads. This will not change any time soon, because those at the top don't see that they're the problem. But until it changes, the public's alienation will grow.
    Really good thread, and having been rather nasty about an antifrank contribution the other day (to which he responded civilly), I'd like to single this interesting one out for discussion.

    There isn't any doubt that politics favours people who focus on it from teenage and network fiercely from then on. The selection process is simultaneously tough (only maybe 1% of those who seriously want to be MPs make it) and at the whim of a small group of people preoccupied with politics and likely to know several of the contenders personally. And one way of focusing and networking is to go to Eton and Cambridge

    The electorate is pretty used to this and willing to look past it if they like someone and an effort has been made by the politician to look at other backgrounds. Opprtunities arise naturally and should be grabbed - I went on benefit after losing my seat not because it would produce much money but because I wanted to understand the process. Tory MPs have more to prove in this area (just as Labour MPs have more to prove that they aren't merely a sppokesman for a trade union), which I think is why Ed does (relatively) better in the "in touch" ratings - people assume he's got some sort of interest in them because of his choice of party, and he isn't arrogant. There are plenty of ways to show interest and concern, and I think Cameron does make a bit of an effort (which is a reason he's still quite liked), whereas Osborne really does not.
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    TGOHF said:

    What an unpleasant class obsessed thread. Thank goodness some people still don't care what school a person went to and prefer not to prejudge a charachter.

    Depressing stuff.

    As I said inverted snobbery is a very poor trait.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,951
    AveryLP said:

    Class Warfare: Part II

    Summary                          Lib    Lab    Con    Total
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Public School 4 4 5 13
    Eton 2 - 4 6
    Grammar School 2 4 5 11
    Other Independent 1 1
    State & Services 1 2 1 4
    --- --- --- ---
    8 10 11 29

    Oxford 2 6 7 15
    Cambridge 2 1 3
    Glasgow 2 1 3
    Edinburgh 1 1 2
    Other 1 1

    Military 1 1 2
    No University 3 3
    --- --- --- ---
    8 10 11 29

    Barrister 3 3 2 8
    Other Lawyer 2 2
    Military (excl. War) 1 1 2 4
    Politics (Non elected) 1 1 2
    University Academic 3 3
    Other Teaching 1 1 2
    Media 1 1 2
    Business (incl. PR & Cons.) 4 4
    Civil Service 1 1
    Sport 1 1
    --- --- --- ---
    8 10 11 2
    I'm annoyed that three party leaders have attended Cambridge University. I thought Cambridge was above all the politics malarkey, leaving that and theology to the lesser university on the Thames. Mind you, I suppose there must be one or two people who slip over to the darker side. It's a sure sign that Cambridge needs to institute stronger interviews to weed out anyone who might just become a politician ...
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Charles said:

    Lucy Kellaway wrote a recent, characteristically perceptive, article about OE aged in their 50s:

    ...The second was how relatively undistinguished their careers had turned out to be. Apart from one senior politician and one former newspaper editor, they were a middling group of lawyers, property investors and fund managers, rich by national standards, but disappointing if you consider their start in life. They arrived at that school at 13, clever and mostly from wealthy families, to spend five years wearing tailcoats and becoming members of one of the world’s most elite networks. Yet there they were, in their prime, and it had amounted to not very much at all.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b8dc242c-8e83-11e3-98c6-00144feab7de.html#axzz2tN4qHEOX

    [Paywall, but you can get several articles a month free]

    Willpower is alleged to be the key trait for success.

    http://reason.com/reasontv/2014/02/10/self-control-is-the-key-to-a-success-joh
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    DavidL said:

    I agree with Mike on this one. It shouldn't matter and it is irrational but it does. Here's why.



    So it is much more important for a tory to look connected to ordinary people and to be aware of their concerns. Blair did not have this problem because he was supposedly leading a party for the left behind. Tories do.

    I think Cameron is extremely smart and able. His tutor at Oxford said he was one of the brightest he had ever taught. He could have been succesful in a range of careers but chose politics because he is committed to public service and cares about people. It is just that coming from his background it will never look that way.

    Spot on. That's the issue facing the Tories which having the current leadership makes much more difficult.

    Nadine Dorries got this right: "Posh boys not knowing the price of bread"


    Oh Mike !!! .... Quoting "Mad Nad" in your support definitely deserves the naughty step and also take one hundred lines :

    "I must not drink the hair restorative tonic before writng PB threads."

    .....................................

    Anyway .... toodles .... I'm orf to accompany Mrs JackW and to prevent bankruptcy in Bond Street ....

    Wish me well !!!!

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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    AveryLP said:

    Class Warfare: Part II

    Summary                          Lib    Lab    Con    Total
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Public School 4 4 5 13
    Eton 2 - 4 6
    Grammar School 2 4 5 11
    Other Independent 1 1
    State & Services 1 2 1 4
    --- --- --- ---
    8 10 11 29

    Oxford 2 6 7 15
    Cambridge 2 1 3
    Glasgow 2 1 3
    Edinburgh 1 1 2
    Other 1 1

    Military 1 1 2
    No University 3 3
    --- --- --- ---
    8 10 11 29

    Barrister 3 3 2 8
    Other Lawyer 2 2
    Military (excl. War) 1 1 2 4
    Politics (Non elected) 1 1 2
    University Academic 3 3
    Other Teaching 1 1 2
    Media 1 1 2
    Business (incl. PR & Cons.) 4 4
    Civil Service 1 1
    Sport 1 1
    --- --- --- ---
    8 10 11 2
    I'm annoyed that three party leaders have attended Cambridge University. I thought Cambridge was above all the politics malarkey, leaving that and theology to the lesser university on the Thames. Mind you, I suppose there must be one or two people who slip over to the darker side. It's a sure sign that Cambridge needs to institute stronger interviews to weed out anyone who might just become a politician ...
    JJ

    Cambridge educates traitors.

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    DavidL said:

    I think Cameron is extremely smart and able. His tutor at Oxford said he was one of the brightest he had ever taught. He could have been succesful in a range of careers but chose politics because he is committed to public service and cares about people. It is just that coming from his background it will never look that way.

    Whatever makes you think that? He is exactly the kind of only-done-politics drone that people are utterly sick of because they preach about things they have never experienced.

    That Cameron non-politics CV in full.
    Gap year working for his Tory MP godfather
    PPE at Oxford
    Conservative Research department operative
    Special Advisor to Chancellor Lamont on Black Wednesday
    Special Advisor to Home Secretary Michael Howard
    Director of Corporate Affairs for Carlton after his mother in law got him a job where he launched the highly successful onDigital.

    Put him out in the real world without the family connection and you're saying he could have been a success? Evidence? And its not just Cameron, all three main parties are fuill of similar drones who have done nothing.


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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,951

    DavidL said:

    I agree with Mike on this one. It shouldn't matter and it is irrational but it does. Here's why.



    So it is much more important for a tory to look connected to ordinary people and to be aware of their concerns. Blair did not have this problem because he was supposedly leading a party for the left behind. Tories do.

    I think Cameron is extremely smart and able. His tutor at Oxford said he was one of the brightest he had ever taught. He could have been succesful in a range of careers but chose politics because he is committed to public service and cares about people. It is just that coming from his background it will never look that way.

    Spot on. That's the issue facing the Tories which having the current leadership makes much more difficult.

    Nadine Dorries got this right: "Posh boys not knowing the price of bread"
    This is a stupid argument. I do most of my own shopping and bake bread to supplement the stuff we buy in the shops. Yet I've no real idea how much bread costs. Does that make posh, stupid, or just lucky enough that I do not have to worry about whether the bread is 50 pence or £1.50?

    For instance, I've no idea if baking my own bread is cheaper than buying an equivalent loaf from the shop, once ingredients and energy are taken into account, yet alone the time taken (which I don't as I find baking relaxing).

    I've got enough going on in my head without keeping such (for me) useless information in there. What's more, I'd like politicians to have their heads filled with more useful information as well, especially as bread is just one of the essentials of daily life.
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    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    The Tories need a new leader who can confront the perception they are the party of the rich and privileged.This is a massive weakness with tax cuts for millionaires and Bullingdon Boys at the heart of government only re-confirms.
    The other problem is their obsession with Europe,leading them to bang on about it incessantly,when polls show voters have more important concerns.Banging on about Europe could tear the Tory party apart.It is very hard to see a pro-EU leader succeeding Cameron.
    The only candidate to deal with both problems is Michael Gove,son of toil and an outer,is very much in the game.
    Gove is best priced at 9-1 and is 3rd fav..As well as a possible winning bet,he could lead the Tory party over a cliff into oblivion,which is,of course,only a secondary factor.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I'll never forget watching footage of Maggie being shown around a council house that some voter had bought after she brought the scheme in.

    She noted with admiration how the place had changed, how he'd put in new cupboards and changed the windows, new bathroom suite etc, all without prompting.

    Cameron would have been utterly lost.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,231

    DavidL said:

    I think Cameron is extremely smart and able. His tutor at Oxford said he was one of the brightest he had ever taught. He could have been succesful in a range of careers but chose politics because he is committed to public service and cares about people. It is just that coming from his background it will never look that way.

    Whatever makes you think that? He is exactly the kind of only-done-politics drone that people are utterly sick of because they preach about things they have never experienced.

    That Cameron non-politics CV in full.
    Gap year working for his Tory MP godfather
    PPE at Oxford
    Conservative Research department operative
    Special Advisor to Chancellor Lamont on Black Wednesday
    Special Advisor to Home Secretary Michael Howard
    Director of Corporate Affairs for Carlton after his mother in law got him a job where he launched the highly successful onDigital.

    Put him out in the real world without the family connection and you're saying he could have been a success? Evidence? And its not just Cameron, all three main parties are fuill of similar drones who have done nothing.


    The man got a first at Oxford. In his early 20s he is thought bright and useful enough to be a SPAD to the Chancellor. He has made PM at a young age. You are letting your hostility blind you into being foolish.

    FWIW I would say the same things about Miliband, except he has not yet made PM. Just because our politicians are drones with insufficient real world experience (on which I agree with you) does not make them stupid or less than able. They have reached the pinnicle of their chosen profession and few do that in any walk of life.

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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,951
    AveryLP said:



    I'm annoyed that three party leaders have attended Cambridge University. I thought Cambridge was above all the politics malarkey, leaving that and theology to the lesser university on the Thames. Mind you, I suppose there must be one or two people who slip over to the darker side. It's a sure sign that Cambridge needs to institute stronger interviews to weed out anyone who might just become a politician ...

    JJ

    Cambridge educates traitors.

    But they were excellent traitors, which is why we remember them. The best traitors that England could produce ;-)

    Just as Cambridge is the best in Britain at winning Nobel prizes (with Oxford in a lacklustre third behind Cambridge and the combined LU and ICL).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_university_affiliation
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    taffys said:

    I'll never forget watching footage of Maggie being shown around a council house that some voter had bought after she brought the scheme in.

    She noted with admiration how the place had changed, how he'd put in new cupboards and changed the windows, new bathroom suite etc, all without prompting.

    Cameron would have been utterly lost.

    Real men don't make comments about cupboards and curtains, taffys.

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    As for the grammar school debate, I think it's pretty intractable. Even within comprehensive schools there has been much debate about whether children should be streamed by ability or not, but very few schools now operate all classes as mixed ability. Labour put a lot of work into "Gifted and Talented" programmes which theoretically aid the case that bright kids can get an appropriate level of challenge at non-selective schools. But I was uncomfortable with the label they chose - "G&T" suggested that it all came down to the inherent brilliance of the child. In practice, hard work matters as much as natural aptitude, and in general there were parents (insert "supportive" or "pushy" at your own discretion) behind such success too.

    The evidence that a "system containing grammar schools" (rather than grammars themselves) currently fail to provide a good education for poorer families is very strong. Anybody who dismisses it out of hand on the back of anecdotal evidence is being intellectually lazy. Anybody who thinks it's just about what happens in the four walls of the grammar itself (which may well provide an excellent and stimulating education to the bright and poor) is missing the point. But it's unclear to me how much of this is an inherent problem with selective education, and how much of this is a flaw in the current arrangement of the system in particular.

    Years back when I was a grammar school lad and the campaign for the 11+ to be given the chop was being organised (by some bods in the local Labour Party as it happened, but the Tories can hardly claim a record as "protectors of the grammar schools") one of my more easily diverted teachers got drawn into a debate on the merits of the selective system which I think stands up pretty well. He thought in practice it was not working very well, because it had in effect become a cosy way for the middle class to get a private-style education on the cheap. The figures bore him out - most of the pupils came from a handful of state primaries in middle class areas that were well known (a Key Selling Point to prospective parents) for their extensive 11+ preparation, or a network of local prep schools. A lot of parents considered it cheaper to send a kid to prep school where they would do two years of 11+ practice, than to send them to a state primary then private secondary. I suspect none of the kids from the prep schools went on to the local secondary moderns as the local private secondaries had good custom, though some may have got shipped off to nearby (religious) comprehensives. By all accounts a very large proportion went on to grammar schools, though. I doubt it was all due to their genetic superiority manifesting itself in better 11+ scores - the preparation they received, at a price, clearly helped. Lots of the people I met at grammar school had had a coach or tutor on top, even the ones who'd gone to a state primary.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,231

    DavidL said:

    I agree with Mike on this one. It shouldn't matter and it is irrational but it does. Here's why.



    So it is much more important for a tory to look connected to ordinary people and to be aware of their concerns. Blair did not have this problem because he was supposedly leading a party for the left behind. Tories do.

    I think Cameron is extremely smart and able. His tutor at Oxford said he was one of the brightest he had ever taught. He could have been succesful in a range of careers but chose politics because he is committed to public service and cares about people. It is just that coming from his background it will never look that way.

    Spot on. That's the issue facing the Tories which having the current leadership makes much more difficult.

    Nadine Dorries got this right: "Posh boys not knowing the price of bread"
    This is a stupid argument. I do most of my own shopping and bake bread to supplement the stuff we buy in the shops. Yet I've no real idea how much bread costs. Does that make posh, stupid, or just lucky enough that I do not have to worry about whether the bread is 50 pence or £1.50?

    For instance, I've no idea if baking my own bread is cheaper than buying an equivalent loaf from the shop, once ingredients and energy are taken into account, yet alone the time taken (which I don't as I find baking relaxing).

    I've got enough going on in my head without keeping such (for me) useless information in there. What's more, I'd like politicians to have their heads filled with more useful information as well, especially as bread is just one of the essentials of daily life.
    The bread thing is what I understand these Oxbridge people call a metaphor. What is needed is the breadth of vision to be able to envisage the lives of those less fortunate and relate to their aspirations and dreams in a way which allows you to explain how your policies are going to help. It is a rare skill but Maggie had it and so did Blair.

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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Oh, dear. Another healthy dose of reality for Saint Alex the rest of the Kool Aid cult.
    Alex Salmond's claim that British business leaders want Scotland to keep the pound was categorically rejected by an executive who represents more than 30,000 UK companies on Friday.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10640499/UK-firms-reject-Alex-Salmonds-claims-over-keeping-the-pound..html
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited February 2014
    (Overspew) I could smugly state I did it all on talent, and indeed there were other kids I met who hadn't had formal tuition. But I went to a primary school where grammar entry was encouraged, and the deputy head gave up a couple of mornings so we could practise - I think we did about 3 papers, so nothing like the prep schools or more intensive state schools, but far better than taking the test "blind". Bear in mind some state primaries refused to cooperate with the 11+ system at all. My mother was a teacher who invested significant time out of school hours in my education, including on verbal reasoning tests that were of no educational value bar the 11+. If my mother had not been an educationalist by background, that service would have cost good money. A middle class privilege.

    What I found interesting about my teacher's argument was that he felt the system needed serious practical reform. Make the 11+ uncoachable. (Not sure how easy this would be, I fear this was the point in "verbal reasoning" instead of English and arithmetic, yet even that was being gamed.) Perhaps allow more input from primary teachers (not sure how that would have broken the stranglehold of the prep schools, where all the little darlings were treated as "talented" and would get pushed for grammar entry, but it's how Germany runs a selective school system without an 11+). Grammar school school cohorts should grow over time, adding students whose talents are identified later at non-selective secondaries (makes a lot of sense, crazy to think you can spot all the bright kids at the age of 10). "Let" students who are underperforming at grammar drop down into other secondaries (at this point, the argument sounded more like one for streaming rather than for running a separate school system for the bright). More investment in the non-selective schools, including technical schools as a rivalto more academically-oriented secondary schools (also rather German, but I later learned that Southampton had run a "tripartite" grammar-secondary-technical system).

    As the parentheses suggest I remain skeptical about many of those suggestions. It's hard to see who could make the case for such reforms apart from the headteachers of the grammar schools themselves. The people who might otherwise apply political pressure to make the system work better for poorer students, were too busy campaigning to shut the whole thing down in favour of comprehensives for all. But it'd be wrong to judge the idea of selective education purely on the historic (or current dregs of) sytem in Britain. International comparison to central Europe (not just Germany has the Gymnasium) would surely be instructive. I can't see any prospect of a return for grammar schools in their tradional form, but I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of "magnet schools for the gifted and talented" make a limited appearance. You don't get many Labour politicians calling for the BRIT School to shut, for instance.
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    hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758
    I can't really say how much I dislike Cameron without offending people. He is a PR man with delusions of being a leader and he is failing. He does not have a grip of the Tory party and cannot offer the leadership the UK requires. I don't blame Cameron for his background, but he should never have surrounded himself with ministers who don't have anything in common with most people in the country. There are plenty of Tory MP's on the backbenches who are far more capable than some ministers, but they are not Camerons mates.
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    ...

    It's a strong poster, but I don't like the way it's worded. In a democracy, isn't it ultimately "the people" that make a Prime Minister? Do the Conservative Party really think that the office of Prime Minister is something that it is within their gift to bestow on whomsoever they choose? Just a thought.

    The poster was from the 1992 general election. At the time, the British public hadn't made John Major PM (other than by giving the then Thatcher-led Conservatives a majority in 1987). It was via the Conservative leadership election of 1990 that Major became PM and as such the poster was well-worded.

    I think it would have been seen as strange if in 2010, Labour had claimed that the country had made Gordon Brown PM (even though he'd have had more validity to that claim given that the country knew in 2005 that Blair was likely to stand down during the course of the parliament, and that Brown was likely to succeed him).
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    On topic, it's only those on the left who obsess about class and background. The Tory Party chooses its leaders on merit (usually - when it doesn't mess up its negative voting).

    If the best option for the next Conservative leader happens to be an Old Etonian - and I believe that at the moment, that's likely - expect him to be elected. His background will prompt much criticism from The Guardian and hardly anyone else will care. What matters is being seen to be on the side of the electorate. Where you come from is irrelevant; what matters is where you are going.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited February 2014

    On topic, it's only those on the left who obsess about class and background. The Tory Party chooses its leaders on merit (usually - when it doesn't mess up its negative voting).

    If the best option for the next Conservative leader happens to be an Old Etonian - and I believe that at the moment, that's likely - expect him to be elected. His background will prompt much criticism from The Guardian and hardly anyone else will care. What matters is being seen to be on the side of the electorate. Where you come from is irrelevant; what matters is where you are going.

    But David, we need to understand the ordinary voter.

    Prejudice may be all that is left when there are no persuasive arguments to be had against policy and performance.

    It is like opening the cupboard door and finding there is no food on the shelves.

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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105
    AveryLP said:

    Real men don't make comments about cupboards and curtains, taffys.

    I get the impression that Ed Miliband could talk at length about the merits of scatter cushions....
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited February 2014


    Spot on. That's the issue facing the Tories which having the current leadership makes much more difficult.

    Nadine Dorries got this right: "Posh boys not knowing the price of bread"

    I am loathe to agree with Dorries on anything, and the "price of bread" has always struck me as similar to those hideous "sports pop quiz" that journalists dish out at the first opportunity to unprepared sports ministers.

    But it is difficult for the Tories to score well on being "in touch", and part of that is due to the background of their current leadership. Perhaps unfair, given the backgrounds of those in the senior positions in all parties, but nonetheless true.

    I think that part of the problem is that the Tory front bench "looks and feels" very homogeneous. I think the party would be forgiven the occasional Old Etonian, actually. As has been noted downthread, the public schools are very good at producing "smooth", self-assured operators - the kind of person who may shine now in politics better than before the 24/7 media etc. Better to have a likeable ex public schoolboy than an angry or chip-on-shouldered or plain weird state school lad. But you can have too much of a good thing. There's a fine line between smooth and smarmy, self-assured and cocky.

    Issues matter more, but if you can't "connect" with people then you can't convey your stance on those issues effectively. There are some demographics that the Tories are not connecting well with, and a more heterogeneous leadership would help them.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    He is my bet for next Tory Leader for much the same reasons. He is state schooled, from Scotland, modest parental background, eurosceptic and not afraid of tackling his opponents in their den. He is not popular with teachers, but may strike more of a chord with parents. He would recognise the new cupboards in a council house, but also get the support of the posher set. I got on at 10:1.

    I went to comprehensives myself, as did my sibling with a PHD from Cambridge, and my other sibling who went to LSE and is an economist in London with an international organisation. He failed his 11+ but was saved from a secondary modern by Mrs Thatcher (who was education minister at the time) abolishing selective education in our county the same year, so he went to a comp instead. I do not believe that he would have got where he has if he had gone to the secondary modern. Inevitably our own experiences make us all feel we have expertise, but it seems to me that 11 is the wrong age for selection. No-one that I know opposes selection at 18 for university, but the question is where in this band of 11-18 should selection occur? Personally I think that public schools have it about right at 14 with their Common Entrance exam.

    The Tories need a new leader who can confront the perception they are the party of the rich and privileged.This is a massive weakness with tax cuts for millionaires and Bullingdon Boys at the heart of government only re-confirms.
    The other problem is their obsession with Europe,leading them to bang on about it incessantly,when polls show voters have more important concerns.Banging on about Europe could tear the Tory party apart.It is very hard to see a pro-EU leader succeeding Cameron.
    The only candidate to deal with both problems is Michael Gove,son of toil and an outer,is very much in the game.
    Gove is best priced at 9-1 and is 3rd fav..As well as a possible winning bet,he could lead the Tory party over a cliff into oblivion,which is,of course,only a secondary factor.

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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,672
    edited February 2014
    AveryLP said:

    taffys said:

    I'll never forget watching footage of Maggie being shown around a council house that some voter had bought after she brought the scheme in.

    She noted with admiration how the place had changed, how he'd put in new cupboards and changed the windows, new bathroom suite etc, all without prompting.

    Cameron would have been utterly lost.

    Real men don't make comments about cupboards and curtains, taffys.

    One does rather wonder how Mrs T knew they were different - was she familiar with the normal council house on that estate? Or were the toilet seats leopard fur covered?

    If not, I rather suspect a canny briefer.

    BTW surely curtains were never council house issue, were they? And windows, kitchen suite, etc., qualify as man stuff (DIY and all that).



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    Jonathan said:

    It's an interesting article that demonstrates how far the Tory party has retreated. It's a shadow of its former self. Both Thatcher and Major would not have made it to the top today.

    On the Eton thing, all parties suffer from nepotism and narrow cliques.

    No, both would stand a good chance in the right circumstances, as evidenced by the prominence of Theresa May and Philip Hammond in the leadership stakes. (Hammond's background is of course different from Major's - it's the personality I'm comparing there. To look for a similar background, David Davis would be a better bet, and but for an excellent campaign by Cameron, Davis would have won in 2005).

    You are of course right about all parties suffering from connections mattering far too much. This is at least as much true of Labour, where Prescott and Johnson were very likely the last of their breed: the working-class lad who rose to the top via the union route. With the unions themselves becoming increasingly professional, as well as the fast-tracking of SpAds (who invariably need family connections themselves), it's doubtful whether that route's now viable for someone of that background.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105
    O/T we lost four big trees over the past week (but none of the might oaks or beech), so the spring air will be full of the sound of chainsaws, but otherwise survived intact - bar one mystery roof tile that has so far refused to divulge where it came from....

    I have never heard a wind like it. It was primal screaming...
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,040
    edited February 2014
    Here's a first, the Daily Mail calling for positivity. Pretty rich from an organ that's injected so much bile into the debate itself.

    'DAILY MAIL COMMENT: Is Union sleepwalking towards poll disaster?

    Alex Salmond’s Scottish Nationalists – who are gaining in the polls – ruthlessly exploit Westminster’s weaknesses and miscalculations, of which there have been far too many.
    Forget David Cameron’s gimmicky decision to deliver a major speech on the referendum from London’s Olympic Park, rather than in Scotland, which will have gone down like a lead haggis in the bars of Edinburgh and Glasgow.
    No, what worries this paper is that the negative, threatening approach by the pro-Unionists is proving counter-productive.
    On Thursday, for instance, George Osborne (who at least travelled north of the border to make his speech) struck a worryingly arrogant tone by declaring: ‘If Scotland walks away from the UK, it walks away from the UK pound"....
    The truth is that negative campaigning seldom works. The tragedy is that there is a gloriously positive message to be delivered, but the pro-Union politicians are utterly failing to articulate it.'

    http://tinyurl.com/qjqr4dp
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746


    The other problem is their obsession with Europe,leading them to bang on about it incessantly,when polls show voters have more important concerns.Banging on about Europe could tear the Tory party apart.It is very hard to see a pro-EU leader succeeding Cameron.
    The only candidate to deal with both problems is Michael Gove,son of toil and an outer,is very much in the game.

    The only time this parliament when the Conservatives have challenged Labour in the polls was during the 'veto-gasm', when Mr Cameron appeared to be standing up for the UK against the EU.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#2011

    Wanting a referendum on our EU membership is the majority view in the UK. Those opposing it are the extremists.
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    RIP Sir Tom Finney, the Preston Plumber.

    A football great from another time and another country.

    My dad and grandad saw him play. One standing on the Shelf, the other one on the North Bank. They've all gone too. A sad day.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    It was easy to spot the council houses that were sold under right to buy. The first thing the owners did was to spend on home improvements, even if this was as minor as painting the front door. Councils were notorious for failing to individualise houses, or to update them. When I was last in Scotland it was quite noticeable how uniform the council estates looked, as I understand that there was much fewer sales. They reminded me of England in the Seventies in their grim, grey monotony.
    Carnyx said:

    AveryLP said:

    taffys said:

    I'll never forget watching footage of Maggie being shown around a council house that some voter had bought after she brought the scheme in.

    She noted with admiration how the place had changed, how he'd put in new cupboards and changed the windows, new bathroom suite etc, all without prompting.

    Cameron would have been utterly lost.

    Real men don't make comments about cupboards and curtains, taffys.

    One does rather wonder how Mrs T knew they were different - was she familiar with the normal council house on that estate? Or were the toilet seats leopard fur covered?

    If not, I rather suspect a canny briefer.

    BTW surely curtains were never council house issue, were they? And windows, kitchen suite, etc., qualify as man stuff (DIY and all that).



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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Carnyx said:

    AveryLP said:

    taffys said:

    I'll never forget watching footage of Maggie being shown around a council house that some voter had bought after she brought the scheme in.

    She noted with admiration how the place had changed, how he'd put in new cupboards and changed the windows, new bathroom suite etc, all without prompting.

    Cameron would have been utterly lost.

    Real men don't make comments about cupboards and curtains, taffys.

    One does rather wonder how Mrs T knew they were different - was she familiar with the normal council house on that estate? Or were the toilet seats leopard fur covered?

    If not, I rather suspect a canny briefer.

    BTW surely curtains were never council house issue, were they? And windows, kitchen suite, etc., qualify as man stuff (DIY and all that).

    Maggie was a famous flirt.

    She spent her time adjusting ties and picking imaginary specks of dust off the collars of her male subordinates.

    Every proper Tory likes a nanny.

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    Mr. Mark, whilst Yorkshire hasn't had the worst of the weather (this time) the wind last night kept me awake rather a lot. Thankfully, no trees here have blown over, though a few sizeable branches/limbs have been snapped off.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Liz Truss. Grammar school educated, presentable, solves the Tory "women" issues and is a fearsomely good speaker from what I have seen. Not sure where she stands on policy terms though. She would need to be right of centre to succeed in the current climate.
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    PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,274
    Cameron is not perfect: he has made mistakes and misjudgments and his lack of natural empathy outside his own circle is all too plain to see. However he is a sane and decent man in whose hands the country is far more secure than with any other plausible contender at this time. This is what will tell in the end.
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    @David Herson "On topic, it's only those on the left who obsess about class and background."

    That is compete rubbish. Ask John Prescott. What was it Nicholas Soames used to taunt him about?

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    Mr. Observer, was it being too skinny?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105

    Ask John Prescott. What was it Nicholas Soames used to taunt him about?

    His poor effort at being a lardy-arse?

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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,672
    edited February 2014
    Oh, I agree about the front door - it's just the interior that puzzled me a little, but maybe she'd been in one or two before on the same estate.

    Actually quite a few council houses were sold in Scotland too - certainly in the decent areas - as is instantly evident from your 'front door metric'. I wonder if you are perhaps thinkng of the universality of unpainted harling as a weather shield [I think the English call it rendering or pebbledashing]. It's not required to paint harled houses, whether privately or publicly owned, any more than it would be to paint brick terrace houses (but it does happen quite a bit, of course).

    It was easy to spot the council houses that were sold under right to buy. The first thing the owners did was to spend on home improvements, even if this was as minor as painting the front door. Councils were notorious for failing to individualise houses, or to update them. When I was last in Scotland it was quite noticeable how uniform the council estates looked, as I understand that there was much fewer sales. They reminded me of England in the Seventies in their grim, grey monotony.

    Carnyx said:

    AveryLP said:

    taffys said:

    I'll never forget watching footage of Maggie being shown around a council house that some voter had bought after she brought the scheme in.

    She noted with admiration how the place had changed, how he'd put in new cupboards and changed the windows, new bathroom suite etc, all without prompting.

    Cameron would have been utterly lost.

    Real men don't make comments about cupboards and curtains, taffys.

    One does rather wonder how Mrs T knew they were different - was she familiar with the normal council house on that estate? Or were the toilet seats leopard fur covered?

    If not, I rather suspect a canny briefer.

    BTW surely curtains were never council house issue, were they? And windows, kitchen suite, etc., qualify as man stuff (DIY and all that).



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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    "My long-term bets Cameron’s successor are on Theresa May and Phillip Hammond." OGH.

    Theresa May? Maybe, although having renamed the Tories as 'the nasty party', even if she never meant to, means a black mark against her.

    Phillip Hammond? Never, if the party knows whats good for it! His voice grates on the ears; it's a continuous whine. He cannot deal with ordinary people at close quarters, (see floods), and he has mangled the countries armed forces with malevolence.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited February 2014

    @David Herson "On topic, it's only those on the left who obsess about class and background."

    That is compete rubbish. Ask John Prescott. What was it Nicholas Soames used to taunt him about?

    Cock tales?

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    Scott_P said:

    Oh, dear. Another healthy dose of reality for Saint Alex the rest of the Kool Aid cult.

    Alex Salmond's claim that British business leaders want Scotland to keep the pound was categorically rejected by an executive who represents more than 30,000 UK companies on Friday.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10640499/UK-firms-reject-Alex-Salmonds-claims-over-keeping-the-pound..html

    Another dose of reality for the PB Britvolk - and it's from the Telegraph!

    ' To deny Scots the pound is therefore to deny them independence. Once this fact sinks in, the bravado of last week’s threats could easily backfire. If Scots vote for independence, they have to be accommodated. London cannot honourably or constitutionally take any other course.
    It was for very good reason that Holyrood’s Fiscal Commission Working Group rejected all the other options in attempting to flesh out likely monetary arrangements for an independent Scotland; none of them would work, or rather, they couldn’t be made to work in an acceptable manner.
    Scotland cannot realistically form its own currency while accepting its rightful share of the national debt, for this would be tantamount to default on that debt, throwing both Scottish and British debt management into chaos.'

    http://archive.is/XAa1c#selection-853.1-865.227



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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105
    "Oh my man - you call THAT a foie gras butty? No - THIS is a foie gras butty..."
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    @Foxinsox - "It was easy to spot the council houses that were sold under right to buy. The first thing the owners did was to spend on home improvements, even if this was as minor as painting the front door. Councils were notorious for failing to individualise houses, or to update them."

    Council housing used to come in all shapes and forms. Many council houses in the part of London where I grew up were Victorian and Edwardian. Friends of my Mum bought their three storey Victorian place from Camden council in the late 80s for about £50,000 and are now sitting in a place worth well over £1 million. A lot of the nice old houses that you see as you wander around Camden, Islington and Hackney were council places 35 years ago.
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    Ask John Prescott. What was it Nicholas Soames used to taunt him about?

    His poor effort at being a lardy-arse?

    Something about mine's a gin Giovanni.

    Use of "Fatcha" is another Tory sneer at the lower orders, as is 'Elf and Safety, and "innit". The plebs cannot even pronounce words properly. Aren't they ridiculous?

    Everyone does it. Not just those on the left. The UK is the most class ridden, class conscious, class obsessed country on earth.

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    Mr. Divvie, calling Englishmen (and Welsh/Northern Irish) 'Britvolk' is not necessarily in keeping with Salmond's prediction that, post-independence, Scotland and England will be 'best pals'.

    Independence is a matter for Scots. The British pound, however, is not something you can claim as of right and nor is it a matter only for Scots.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,672

    @Foxinsox - "It was easy to spot the council houses that were sold under right to buy. The first thing the owners did was to spend on home improvements, even if this was as minor as painting the front door. Councils were notorious for failing to individualise houses, or to update them."

    Council housing used to come in all shapes and forms. Many council houses in the part of London where I grew up were Victorian and Edwardian. Friends of my Mum bought their three storey Victorian place from Camden council in the late 80s for about £50,000 and are now sitting in a place worth well over £1 million. A lot of the nice old houses that you see as you wander around Camden, Islington and Hackney were council places 35 years ago.

    Quite so. One of the nicest middleclass sandstone villas where I live used to be the primary school headmaster's house, and he bought it under right to buy as a sitting tenant in a council house!

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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    Ask John Prescott. What was it Nicholas Soames used to taunt him about?

    His poor effort at being a lardy-arse?

    Something about mine's a gin Giovanni.

    Use of "Fatcha" is another Tory sneer at the lower orders, as is 'Elf and Safety, and "innit". The plebs cannot even pronounce words properly. Aren't they ridiculous?

    Everyone does it. Not just those on the left. The UK is the most class ridden, class conscious, class obsessed country on earth.

    It appears you never visited Russia under communist rule, SO.

    Class is an exclusively Marxist concept.

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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,040
    edited February 2014

    Mr. Divvie, calling Englishmen (and Welsh/Northern Irish) 'Britvolk'* is not necessarily in keeping with Salmond's prediction that, post-independence, Scotland and England will be 'best pals'.

    When you start handing out strictures to those whose views you approve of ('the Kool Aid cult'), I'll start listening to you.

    *PB is not representative of Englishmen (and Welsh/Northern Irish)
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105
    edited February 2014

    The UK is the most class ridden, class conscious, class obsessed country on earth.

    Some of the worst snobs I have met were the old money in Colombia. Or the beef barons of Forth Worth, looking down their noses at the new oil money of Dallas. The worst treatment of serving folks I've ever witnessed has been at the hands of Indians on fellow Indians - the caste system far more effective at putting someone in their supposed place than class.

    I had a friend who was New England old money. Just before he was about to marry, a group of his WASP friends took him out, sat him down - and told him that his bride to be was outside his class. He was letting the side down. Even though she was a) gorgeous and b) the daughter of a Greek shipping gazilionaire.

    But most countries don't need class divisions. They have tribal divisions, far far more vicious in pitting one section of society against another.
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    Inevitably our own experiences make us all feel we have expertise, but it seems to me that 11 is the wrong age for selection. No-one that I know opposes selection at 18 for university, but the question is where in this band of 11-18 should selection occur? Personally I think that public schools have it about right at 14 with their Common Entrance exam.

    As I mentioned, one of my old teachers reckoned the grammars should start with small yeargroups and widen them up as the years go by, all the way up to sixth form, with talent "spotted" at the local secondaries. Not sure the secondaries would have been keen on that! But if you were going to have a selective system, that would make far more sense than picking everyone at 11 (which in practice means selecting them aged 10).

    Funnily enough, the Germans seem to reverse around the way we do it. Selective education at secondary level (with Gymnasium very similar to a British grammar) but then uniformitarianism at the university level (though they are moving now towards having "elite" universities again, and I presume that will come with greater selectivity).
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Any New suite or kitchen would be recogniseable, and Mrs T was always a housewife as well, even when she was PM.

    As well as front doors: new windows, extensions and garden improvements are signs that a council house is no longer in public hands. People take much better care of things that they own, than things that they rent. It is not just the uniform carling that made me see Scotland as resembling the England of my youth in the Seventies.

    Not that the Seventies were all bad, the atomisation of lives in a more materialistic culture has losses as well as gains, and a lot of England has lost the social solidarity evident in parts of Scotland. It does show how far our two countries have seemed to diverge socially over the decades. Even under Mrs T and John Major the Tories had significant support in Scotland, it was from the mid 90's onwards that this evaporated, with the Conservative party becoming less and less interested in social conservatism and kitchen table politics. UKIP have picked up on this social conservatism, as have the Labour party. The "Cost of Living Crisis" is just inflation under another name, a core concern abround the kitchen table, and one that was a core concern of Mrs T and seventies Conservatives. The Tories are more concerned with dinner party conversations than kitchen table ones nowadays. All about Europe, and not about the price of bread.
    Carnyx said:

    Oh, I agree about the front door - it's just the interior that puzzled me a little, but maybe she'd been in one or two before on the same estate.

    Actually quite a few council houses were sold in Scotland too - certainly in the decent areas - as is instantly evident from your 'front door metric'. I wonder if you are perhaps thinkng of the universality of unpainted harling as a weather shield [I think the English call it rendering or pebbledashing]. It's not that common to paint harled houses, whether privately or publicly owned, any more than it would be to paint brick terrace houses (but it does happen, of course).

    It was easy to spot the council houses that were sold under right to buy. The first thing the owners did was to spend on home improvements, even if this was as minor as painting the front door. Councils were notorious for failing to individualise houses, or to update them. When I was last in Scotland it was quite noticeable how uniform the council estates looked, as I understand that there was much fewer sales. They reminded me of England in the Seventies in their grim, grey monotony.

    Carnyx said:

    AveryLP said:

    <


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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    The UK is the most class ridden, class conscious, class obsessed country on earth.

    Some of the worst snobs I have met were the old money in Colombia. Or the beef barons of Forth Worth, looking down their noses at the new oil money of Dallas. The worst treatment of serving folks I've ever witnessed has been at the hands of Indians on fellow Indians - the caste system far more effective at putting someone in their supposed place than class.

    I had a friend who was New England old money. Just before he was about to marry, a group of his WASP friends took him out, sat him down - and told him that his bride to be was outside his class. He was letting the side down. Even though she was a) gorgeous and b) the daughter of a Greek shipping gazilionaire.

    But most countries don't need class divisions. They have tribal divisions, far far more vicious in pitting one section of society against another.
    There is no "old money" in "New England", MM.

    That is why they are such dreadful snobs.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607


    Something about mine's a gin Giovanni.

    Use of "Fatcha" is another Tory sneer at the lower orders, as is 'Elf and Safety, and "innit". The plebs cannot even pronounce words properly. Aren't they ridiculous?

    Everyone does it. Not just those on the left. The UK is the most class ridden, class conscious, class obsessed country on earth.

    You've clearly never been to India...
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,870
    edited February 2014
    Scott_P said:

    Oh, dear. Another healthy dose of reality for Saint Alex the rest of the Kool Aid cult.

    Alex Salmond's claim that British business leaders want Scotland to keep the pound was categorically rejected by an executive who represents more than 30,000 UK companies on Friday.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10640499/UK-firms-reject-Alex-Salmonds-claims-over-keeping-the-pound..html

    Turnip head finds more unionist drivel. How many hours does Superman work representing 30,000 companies. If he works 365 days a year and 24 hours a day he can spend less than 17.5 minutes per company.
    Another patsy pushing self interest.
This discussion has been closed.