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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour to launch a decapitation strategy against Clegg?

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited February 2014 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour to launch a decapitation strategy against Clegg?

This morning reports emerged that the Labour party is briefing that it has launched a “major bid” to defeat Clegg in his Sheffield Hallam constituency at the next election, with one NEC source declaring that it is “pouring resources” into the seat.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Liberal Democrats - Spinning here!

    :)
  • Dan Hodges now has to publish the private poll he has seen under BPC rules.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Dan Hodges now has to publish the private poll he has seen under BPC rules.

    Does he?
  • Sheffield Hallam must be one of the loveliest seats in the country, the way the beautiful Yorkshire stone of west Sheffield morphs into the craggy hillsides of the glorious Peak.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,840
    5/1 ?

    I'd want 500-1 and maybe more.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    A thread about decapitation strategy, and no one bought up the LDs woeful attempt in 2005?
  • RobD said:

    A thread about decapitation strategy, and no one bought up the LDs woeful attempt in 2005?

    I mentioned it in the thread header. (The Lord Ashcroft bit about past decapitation strategies)
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371

    Dan Hodges now has to publish the private poll he has seen under BPC rules.

    How can you publish something out of his imagination?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    A thread about decapitation strategy, and no one bought up the LDs woeful attempt in 2005?

    I mentioned it in the thread header. (The Lord Ashcroft bit about past decapitation strategies)
    Ah so it is! I was looking for a 2005 ;-)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,840
    On the other hand Shadsy has priced the Liberals at 1/4 for the seat (Not 1/50...) and that 2010 poll.

    Shadsy and Lord Ashcroft are a pollster and a bookie that don't often get it wrong. Clegg could be in for a fright perhaps...
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371
    The Lib Dems are currently on a five year decapitation strategy. The bad news for them is that it is themselves they are quite successfully decapitating.
  • Mea culpa time for Dan:

    @GraceBrodie Trolling? I've been writing exactly the same thing for three and a half years.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited February 2014
    If nothing else it does highlight just how much of a liability calamity Clegg is as leader.
    He can indeed keep his seat, but at what cost to all the other lid dem MPs not nearly so confident of that? Sooner or later they are going to start weighing in. Most likely after the May EU and local elections if they are truly dire for the lib dems.
  • Pulpstar said:

    On the other hand Shadsy has priced the Liberals at 1/4 for the seat (Not 1/50...) and that 2010 poll.

    Shadsy and Lord Ashcroft are a pollster and a bookie that don't often get it wrong. Clegg could be in for a fright perhaps...

    Nah, the activist base in the seat, plus the council results, and in 2011, Labour made a big play in Sheffield Hallam council elections of using the elections to send Nick Clegg a message, well the voters did, they liked the Lib Dems/Clegg and held on comfortably.

    Plus, I wouldn't put too much value in a near 4 year old poll.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,840
    edited February 2014

    Dan Hodges now has to publish the private poll he has seen under BPC rules.

    I complained to the PCC about the 'private polling' he mentioned in his last article.

    {Redacted} (Me ;p) v The Daily Telegraph

    The complainant considered that the newspaper had breached Clause 1 (Accuracy) of the Editors’ Code of Practice, in a comment piece about the popularity of the Conservative Party. The article referenced a poll of key seats, which the Conservative Party had rerun, obtaining a different result. The complainant said the Conservative Party’s result must be inaccurate and that as the Conservative’s version of the poll was now partially in the public domain, the poll should be fully disclosed in accordance with the rules of the British Polling Council. Alternatively, the complainant suggested that the poll did not exist, and if this was the case, its inclusion in the article was misleading.

    Clause 1 (Accuracy) states “the press must take care not to publish inaccurate, misleading or distorted information” and that “a significant inaccuracy, misleading statement or distortion once recognised must be corrected, promptly and with due prominence”.

    The Commission acknowledged the complainant’s concerns for the importance of good practice in polling techniques and over the results that the Conservative Party had achieved. However, the Commission had regard for the fact that the newspaper had set out the context of the poll and clearly attributed the results to the rerun undertaken by the Conservative Party. As such, readers were aware that the results were not independent, with the poll known to be undertaken by a party with an interest in achieving a favourable result. Readers were therefore able to make their own assessment about how much reliance to place on an internal, undisclosed poll and the Commission did not find the poll’s inclusion, or its partially public status, to be misleading or inaccurate in breach of Clause 1.

    Further, whilst the Commission noted the complainant’s suggestion that the internal poll might not exist. This appeared to be speculation and in the absence of any specific information in this regard, no breach was noted.

    There was no breach of the Code of the Editors’ Code of Practice.


    Reference no. 135525
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited February 2014
    With the large reductions in Lib Dem councillors there are some large mismatches between where activists and members are and where the LDs have cllrs and MPs. This year the LD london cllr base will come under attack and in at least 2 councils half the sitting LD cllrs are not standing again. Overall London has 1/3 of the members, 12% of the MPs and 10% of the cllrs. They are likely to go into the GE with just 5% to 6% of their cllrs in London, to prop up 12% of their MPs.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753
    I seem to remember decapitation being very unsuccessful when tried against the tories, even when they were in the doldrums.

    It is a curious policy. If the debates happen Miliband surely needs to focus his fire on Cameron. Targetting Clegg too will make it much more of a 2-v-1 situation and will encourage Clegg to have a go at Miliband.

    It may be that Labour have concluded that the Lib Dems are just not going to recover and that their new support base will be less than 15 instead of in the low 20s. If that is the case there are too many opportunities for seat gains to mess about. Both the main parties will want to feed.
  • Good afternoon, everyone.

    This failed woefully when the Lib Dems tried it. I suspect the main reason why was advertising what they were doing. It's the modern equivalent of handing over your battleplans to the enemy the night before. Even the Queen of Bithynia could beat a completely predictable opponent (cf Pharsalus).
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371

    Mea culpa time for Dan:

    @GraceBrodie Trolling? I've been writing exactly the same thing for three and a half years.

    It would be quite funny if Dan could not quite remember where he had seen the "Hodges Poll" or remember the figures, and no one else could either.

    "Dan Hodges humiliation is a disaster for Ed Miliband" would be the header of his next bile filled rant.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530

    Mea culpa time for Dan:

    @GraceBrodie Trolling? I've been writing exactly the same thing for three and a half years.

    LOL

    And so the inevitable Hodges twitter spat begins. Textbook. ;)
  • RobD said:

    A thread about decapitation strategy, and no one bought up the LDs woeful attempt in 2005?

    But they got Tim Collins! Though considering who it was that got him, perhaps Clegg is ruing even that small success?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,840

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    This failed woefully when the Lib Dems tried it. I suspect the main reason why was advertising what they were doing. It's the modern equivalent of handing over your battleplans to the enemy the night before. Even the Queen of Bithynia could beat a completely predictable opponent (cf Pharsalus).

    OTOH Balls was closish in Morley and Outwood - beyond the national swing to CON iirc.
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    A thread about decapitation strategy, and no one bought up the LDs woeful attempt in 2005?

    I mentioned it in the thread header. (The Lord Ashcroft bit about past decapitation strategies)
    Ah so it is! I was looking for a 2005 ;-)
    I've changed the thread header just for you, it now reads

    As Lord Ashcroft also noted on the Lib Dem decapitation strategy of 2005 (see page 304 of this report)
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    FPT :

    @Danny565 wrote :

    "But the problem is, there AREN'T many Lib Dem activists left in Sheffield (or anywhere in the general region for that matter) after their shellackings in local elections in recent years. By contrast, there's going to be a whole army of Labour activists from all over the Socialist Republic of South Yorkshire, who won't have to worry about any of the other Sheffield seats since they're in the bag for Labour and so will be able to campaign hard in Hallam."

    ................................................................................

    Frankly any serious PBer who thinks Clegg is in any danger of losing in Sheffield Hallam requires medical attention of the padded cell variety.

    On the flip side you and likeminded fellow travellers are providing hours of rib tickling chortleness for the rest of us and on that basis perhaps we might encourage your clinicians to allow you to post such humour from the secure facilities on a daily basis ?!?
  • Mea culpa time for Dan:

    @GraceBrodie Trolling? I've been writing exactly the same thing for three and a half years.

    It would be quite funny if Dan could not quite remember where he had seen the "Hodges Poll" or remember the figures, and no one else could either.

    "Dan Hodges humiliation is a disaster for Ed Miliband" would be the header of his next bile filled rant.
    I have a feeling that if Ed wins with an 80 seat majority Hodges will find a reason why it is not good for him...
  • Good afternoon, everyone.

    This failed woefully when the Lib Dems tried it. I suspect the main reason why was advertising what they were doing. It's the modern equivalent of handing over your battleplans to the enemy the night before. Even the Queen of Bithynia could beat a completely predictable opponent (cf Pharsalus).

    behave you, in the original draft, it said "Targeting Sheffield Hallam when Dewsbury, Elmet & Rothwell, Calder Valley, Keighley, Pudsey & Bradford East are seats which are more likely to fall to Labour than Sheffield Hallam, could be a strategic and tactical blunder on a par with when Hitler thought invading Russia during the winter seems like a good idea, or when Hannibal thought he was well equipped to give Scipio a good hiding"

    At least I got in a Godfather reference.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited February 2014
    JackW said:

    perhaps we might encourage your clinicians

    Bit rich coming from the proctologists friend. How was it Ave_it put it when he laughed at your ancient arse and it's 2010 lib dem predictions? ;)

  • Presumably this is about cheering up the troops. It may not be tactically advisable on psephological grounds, but every party's supporters need something to keep them amused.

    At the last election, quite a few Tories assisted Nigel Farage against John Bercow. Now that really was a completely unjustifiable self-indulgence.
  • Hodges is a genius - he freely admits he has recycled the same column for three and a half years yet the Telegraph keeps paying him. One thing he is expert in: work/life balance.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,721
    Euro Elections Bet

    Looking at the markets on offer, if you fancied Lab to win and the Conservatives to do badly, you could have £60 on UKIP to beat The Cons in a match bet at 4/6 with Lads, and £47 on Labour to win at 11/10 with Hills

    win £93 if it finished Lab/UKIP/Con
    lose £7 if it were Lab/Con/UKIP
    lose £7 if it were UKIP/Lab/Con
    lose £7 if it were UKIP/Con/Lab
    lose £107 if Con win
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,755

    Pulpstar said:

    On the other hand Shadsy has priced the Liberals at 1/4 for the seat (Not 1/50...) and that 2010 poll.

    Shadsy and Lord Ashcroft are a pollster and a bookie that don't often get it wrong. Clegg could be in for a fright perhaps...

    Nah, the activist base in the seat, plus the council results, and in 2011, Labour made a big play in Sheffield Hallam council elections of using the elections to send Nick Clegg a message, well the voters did, they liked the Lib Dems/Clegg and held on comfortably.

    Plus, I wouldn't put too much value in a near 4 year old poll.
    That's a very good post TSE. Labour would be wasting resources that could be used better elsewhere if they spend much time campaigning in Sheffield Hallam. If nothing else, there remains a sizeable Conservative vote for the Lib Dems to squeeze.

  • The data tables for that Populus poll in Sheffield Hallam suggest to me that had the inItial question mentioned Nick Clegg's name, the LDS would have been WAY further ahead.

    Table 5 says it all: At the last general election, Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrat candidate, was elected as MP in this constituency. Had you known on the day of the election that the Liberal Democrats would enter a coalition government with the Conservative Pa
    rty how would you have voted?

    If you make THOSE figures into % you get:

    LD 43%
    LAB 27%
    CON 20%
    AP 11%

    Prob was not the answer the sponsor was hoping for...


  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Funny old world where Blairites like Hodges wind up Milibandites more than Norman Tebbit would.

  • Mr. Pulpstar, different year and different party. Balls has a 1,000 vote majority. I expect the BNP vote here to collapse, and UKIP to take chunks from both red and blue parties. I'd be surprised, alas, if Balls were lopped off. Nevertheless, I shall do my part.

    Mr. Eagles, as always your historical knowledge is weaker than Softy Walter. For a start, Hannibal beat one Scipio in battle (and his brother killed two of them), but (even more importantly) Hannibal was recalled to Rome.

    I prefer to rely on the wisdom of Scipio Africanus (a better general than Caesar) who said that Hannibal had the better battle plan at Zama. Of course, if you think Scipio was an idiot not worth listening to...
  • In Scotland the LD situation is even bleaker with 3% of their cllrs base (71) supporting 19% of their (11) MPs. If all the cllrs were in just an LD constituency, that would average 6 per MP. The reality is far fewer. Their base has dissappeared in parts leaving an MP standing almost alone.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited February 2014
    So Gordon Brown has finally emerged from a 4 year self imposed internal exile to weigh in on the issue of state pensions in the event of Scottish independence:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10646056/Gordon-Brown-warns-Scots-independence-means-losing-British-state-pension.html

    There's alot of confusion about state pensions. Nobody has paid anything in. Even OGH made this mistake recently. Governments make promises to people and they pay the cashflow of pensions by borrowing. It is a 'pay as you go' system, not a funded one.

    Salmond can promise old Scots what he likes. The issue is will he be able to finance the cashflow? (and this applies to all putative Scottish public spending not just pensions). Would he either run a surplus or succesfully tap the government debt markets? If he tries to flounce away from a share of the UK's debt then he won't be borrowing much.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Zac Goldsmith ‏@ZacGoldsmith 4h

    Clegg promised “the biggest democratic shake up since 1832”, "nothing less than a “revolution” #timewasters http://www.leftfootforward.org/2014/02/now-the-new-politics-is-dead-what-is-the-point-of-the-lib-dems/
    All but destroying his own party might indeed shake things up a bit but 1832?
    Calm down Clegg.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Mick_Pork said:

    JackW said:

    perhaps we might encourage your clinicians

    Bit rich coming from the proctologists friend. How was it Ave_it put it when he laughed at your ancient arse and it's 2010 lib dem predictions? ;)

    Sadly @Ave_it memory is as defective as his judgement of future US Presidents.

  • antifrank said:

    Presumably this is about cheering up the troops. It may not be tactically advisable on psephological grounds, but every party's supporters need something to keep them amused.

    At the last election, quite a few Tories assisted Nigel Farage against John Bercow. Now that really was a completely unjustifiable self-indulgence.

    Quite right. It just gives Labour's foot soldiers something to do in what is otherwise a solid as a rock Red city. I don't think anyone would seriously expect to take the seat. The 1/4 on Clegg looks like free money.
  • compouter2compouter2 Posts: 2,371

    Mea culpa time for Dan:

    @GraceBrodie Trolling? I've been writing exactly the same thing for three and a half years.

    It would be quite funny if Dan could not quite remember where he had seen the "Hodges Poll" or remember the figures, and no one else could either.

    "Dan Hodges humiliation is a disaster for Ed Miliband" would be the header of his next bile filled rant.
    I have a feeling that if Ed wins with an 80 seat majority Hodges will find a reason why it is not good for him...
    I could quite imagine he would say a 200 seat majority would be a disaster for Ed Miliband. Amazing how the loss of a job because David didn't win the leadership election could make someone so slanted in their opinion. From being in the inner sanctum of the Labour leadership to out of the party and right wing readership hero, and all because of a small percentage in a leadership election. Strange how things go, eh.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    LDs reminding Labour about its employment record.

    http://www.libdems.org.uk/30m_people_in_work
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited February 2014

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    This failed woefully when the Lib Dems tried it. I suspect the main reason why was advertising what they were doing. It's the modern equivalent of handing over your battleplans to the enemy the night before. Even the Queen of Bithynia could beat a completely predictable opponent (cf Pharsalus).

    If it gets the yellows to commit scarce resources to defending a bastion of strength while depleting the [already-minimal] resources of weaker locations, then it Job Done for the reds.

    I'll leave you to supply an appropriate reference to an ancient campaign!

    [EDIT: I see Sean_F has already made this point]
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited February 2014

    In Scotland the LD situation is even bleaker with 3% of their cllrs base (71) supporting 19% of their (11) MPs. If all the cllrs were in just an LD constituency, that would average 6 per MP. The reality is far fewer. Their base has dissappeared in parts leaving an MP standing almost alone.

    Things can of course get even worse for Clegg because there's no way to explain Wythenshawe and the lib dems worst by-election slump since 1945 other than that virulent toxicity spreading and not lessening one bit. Clegg's ostrich faction won't be able to keep a lid on things after May.
  • The data tables for that Populus poll in Sheffield Hallam suggest to me that had the inItial question mentioned Nick Clegg's name, the LDS would have been WAY further ahead.

    Table 5 says it all: At the last general election, Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrat candidate, was elected as MP in this constituency. Had you known on the day of the election that the Liberal Democrats would enter a coalition government with the Conservative Pa
    rty how would you have voted?

    If you make THOSE figures into % you get:

    LD 43%
    LAB 27%
    CON 20%
    AP 11%

    Prob was not the answer the sponsor was hoping for...


    Any chance survation could do a poll

    1) In Sheffield Hallam

    2) On the indyref, and a question asking did Osborne's intervention make you more likely to vote yes or no

    We need an IndyRef poll before we all go mad.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    I agree that, if Labour openly call it a "decapitation strategy", it would probably backfire. People don't like the sight of politicians being personal and petty, even if it's against a politician they dislike.

    That said: huge public-sector workforce, northern, suburban, lots of liberal academics who work at the university. All demographics swinging heavily away from the Lib Dems to Labour.... *whistles*
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941



    I've changed the thread header just for you, it now reads

    As Lord Ashcroft also noted on the Lib Dem decapitation strategy of 2005 (see page 304 of this report)

    Thanks, now even a simpleton like me can see it ;-)!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753
    This is a list of Lib Dem seats with the % majority:http://www.ukpolitical.info/Lib.htm

    On present polling everything under 10% is gone. It is what our American cousins would call a target rich environment for both major parties.

    There are some names on that list that I would like to hold on because I think they really contribute but they are testing the theory of incumbency to its limits.
  • Mick_Pork said:

    In Scotland the LD situation is even bleaker with 3% of their cllrs base (71) supporting 19% of their (11) MPs. If all the cllrs were in just an LD constituency, that would average 6 per MP. The reality is far fewer. Their base has dissappeared in parts leaving an MP standing almost alone.

    Things can of course get even worse for Clegg because there's no way to explain Wythenshawe and the lib dems worst by-election slump since 1945 other than that virulent toxicity spreading and not lessening one bit. Clegg's ostrich faction won't be able to keep a lid on things after May.
    The question is, what is the tipping point in terms of LD MEPs left after May, for a crisis to sweep Clegg Away? 3 MEPs, 2 MEPs, 1 MEP or 0 MEPs? My guess is it would have to be 0.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,952
    Well done Labour, coming up with about the only strategy that could give any LibDem waverers a reason to vote for Clegg again.

    I also look forward to the English Democrats announcing their decapitation strategy against Ed Miliband in their Doncaster heartland.

    With similar comical results.

    Those who know the constituency - is the vote there largely a personal one for Nick Clegg, or is it now a rock-solid LibDem enclave? Is there any chance that if Clegg leaves politics, it returns to the Tories?
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "... Hitler thought invading Russia during the winter seems like a good idea..."

    Point of order Mr. Chairman, I don't think there is an evidence to suggest that Hitler thought invading Russia in the winter was a good idea.

    Your point about Hannibal thinking he could give Scipio a right good hiding, is well made, totally justified and once again exposes Mr. Dancer's inexplicable blind spot.
  • Well done Labour, coming up with about the only strategy that could give any LibDem waverers a reason to vote for Clegg again.

    I also look forward to the English Democrats announcing their decapitation strategy against Ed Miliband in their Doncaster heartland.

    With similar comical results.

    Those who know the constituency - is the vote there largely a personal one for Nick Clegg, or is it now a rock-solid LibDem enclave? Is there any chance that if Clegg leaves politics, it returns to the Tories?

    Both, the Lib Dems have been very good in Sheffield, they used to control the council,

    Nick Clegg has a good personal vote, some of it is down to the fact the natives like having as their MP the Deputy PM, some also think he's been hardly done by the media and the Tories.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    The latest ARSE prediction, published on 4 Feb, for the LibDems is 35 seats.
  • "... Hitler thought invading Russia during the winter seems like a good idea..."

    Point of order Mr. Chairman, I don't think there is an evidence to suggest that Hitler thought invading Russia in the winter was a good idea.

    Your point about Hannibal thinking he could give Scipio a right good hiding, is well made, totally justified and once again exposes Mr. Dancer's inexplicable blind spot.

    It should have read, attacking Moscow during the winter was a good idea.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530

    Mick_Pork said:

    In Scotland the LD situation is even bleaker with 3% of their cllrs base (71) supporting 19% of their (11) MPs. If all the cllrs were in just an LD constituency, that would average 6 per MP. The reality is far fewer. Their base has dissappeared in parts leaving an MP standing almost alone.

    Things can of course get even worse for Clegg because there's no way to explain Wythenshawe and the lib dems worst by-election slump since 1945 other than that virulent toxicity spreading and not lessening one bit. Clegg's ostrich faction won't be able to keep a lid on things after May.
    The question is, what is the tipping point in terms of LD MEPs left after May, for a crisis to sweep Clegg Away? 3 MEPs, 2 MEPs, 1 MEP or 0 MEPs? My guess is it would have to be 0.
    I would also guess 0 would make some kind of leadership crisis inevitable. Though I certainly don't rule out calamitous local elections results having just as big an impact as that directly affects the lib dem base. (which has already been smashed year on year so is in no shape to take another hammering) Whereas the EU election effects are somewhat more nebulous but will be high profile in the media.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,952
    dr_spyn said:

    LDs reminding Labour about its employment record.

    http://www.libdems.org.uk/30m_people_in_work

    The Coalition has to bang on endlessly about how it has done a fabulous job with keeping the workers in work*. And how every Labour Govt. leaves office with unemployment higher than it inherited. A statistic that makes members of the ironically-named Labour Party choke and splutter when I confront them with it....


    *"Keeping the Workers in Work!" What a wonderfully Soviet slogan. Jaw-jutting silhouettes of Cameron and Clegg under vast billowing Red - er Blue and Yellow - flags.....


  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,840
    If Clegg loses Hallam the Lib Dems are probably reduced to one seat, ten tops... Even as big a doom-monger for the Lib Dems at the next GE isn't predicting that.

    Another £10 to the GE winnings it is.
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,721

    Mick_Pork said:

    In Scotland the LD situation is even bleaker with 3% of their cllrs base (71) supporting 19% of their (11) MPs. If all the cllrs were in just an LD constituency, that would average 6 per MP. The reality is far fewer. Their base has dissappeared in parts leaving an MP standing almost alone.

    Things can of course get even worse for Clegg because there's no way to explain Wythenshawe and the lib dems worst by-election slump since 1945 other than that virulent toxicity spreading and not lessening one bit. Clegg's ostrich faction won't be able to keep a lid on things after May.
    The question is, what is the tipping point in terms of LD MEPs left after May, for a crisis to sweep Clegg Away? 3 MEPs, 2 MEPs, 1 MEP or 0 MEPs? My guess is it would have to be 0.
    0 and even that might not be enough.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,952
    Thanks for the reply TSE.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Lennon said:

    Mick_Pork said:

    In Scotland the LD situation is even bleaker with 3% of their cllrs base (71) supporting 19% of their (11) MPs. If all the cllrs were in just an LD constituency, that would average 6 per MP. The reality is far fewer. Their base has dissappeared in parts leaving an MP standing almost alone.

    Things can of course get even worse for Clegg because there's no way to explain Wythenshawe and the lib dems worst by-election slump since 1945 other than that virulent toxicity spreading and not lessening one bit. Clegg's ostrich faction won't be able to keep a lid on things after May.
    The question is, what is the tipping point in terms of LD MEPs left after May, for a crisis to sweep Clegg Away? 3 MEPs, 2 MEPs, 1 MEP or 0 MEPs? My guess is it would have to be 0.
    0 and even that might not be enough.
    Farron would be a great replacement for the Tories, though. Drive the right of the party back to the Conservatives, while wooing the left back from Labour. Alas, just a dream...
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    'Peter Bell is 63. He used to run a corporate communications consultancy but gave it up in order to concentrate on what he sees as his new job, albeit one which is unpaid, critiquing articles which, in his view, are hostile to Scottish independence. His usual routine is to rise at six in the morning, sit down in the living room of his home in Perth, at his Acer 17-inch laptop, experience “low-level despair” while browsing the morning news and then put in a good 12 to 16 hours’ commenting shift. '

    Keeps them off the streets.
  • TGOHF said:

    Funny old world where Blairites like Hodges wind up Milibandites more than Norman Tebbit would.

    Tebbit is vastly more insightful.

  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Pulpstar said:

    If Clegg loses Hallam the Lib Dems are probably reduced to one seat, ten tops... Even as big a doom-monger for the Lib Dems at the next GE isn't predicting that.

    Not necessarily, because the Lib Dems are suffering more with certain demographics than they are with others. All the evidence is pointing to their popularity being sustained quite well among poor people who live in rural areas, for example in places like Cornwall -- they feel the Lib Dems are the only party who really understands them, most will never vote Labour because it's just culturally not something you do (probably because most poor rural areas don't have much history of a trade-union movement, so they simply didn't grow up in families where voting Labour was the done thing).

    By contrast, Sheffield Hallam is almost the polar opposite of Cornwall -- public-sector workers and liberal academics are disgusted with the actions of the Lib Dems, and crucially, they have a ready-made home in Labour.

    (TheScreamingEagles points out SH is very wealthy, but I think that's something of a red herring -- even wealthy public-sector workers tend to be very angry at the Coalition, which isn't exactly surprising since they've been telling them their wastes of spaces who are holding the country back.)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,755
    Danny565 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If Clegg loses Hallam the Lib Dems are probably reduced to one seat, ten tops... Even as big a doom-monger for the Lib Dems at the next GE isn't predicting that.

    Not necessarily, because the Lib Dems are suffering more with certain demographics than they are with others. All the evidence is pointing to their popularity being sustained quite well among poor people who live in rural areas, for example in places like Cornwall -- they feel the Lib Dems are the only party who really understands them, most will never vote Labour because it's just culturally not something you do (probably because most poor rural areas don't have much history of a trade-union movement, so they simply didn't grow up in families where voting Labour was the done thing).

    By contrast, Sheffield Hallam is almost the polar opposite of Cornwall -- public-sector workers and liberal academics are disgusted with the actions of the Lib Dems, and crucially, they have a ready-made home in Labour.

    (TheScreamingEagles points out SH is very wealthy, but I think that's something of a red herring -- even wealthy public-sector workers tend to be very angry at the Coalition, which isn't exactly surprising since they've been telling them their wastes of spaces who are holding the country back.)
    Hallam isn't just public-sector workers though. It has plenty of well-off private sector workers (indeed, it's got the highest per capita income of any Northern seat). Unlike other urban areas, Lib Dem support has held up well here in local elections, since 2010.

  • "... Hitler thought invading Russia during the winter seems like a good idea..."

    Point of order Mr. Chairman, I don't think there is an evidence to suggest that Hitler thought invading Russia in the winter was a good idea.

    Your point about Hannibal thinking he could give Scipio a right good hiding, is well made, totally justified and once again exposes Mr. Dancer's inexplicable blind spot.

    It should have read, attacking Moscow during the winter was a good idea.
    He delayed himself by spending too much time taking Kiev and the surrounding region.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Disappointed that 'PB Tory' didn't get a mention.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,755

    'Peter Bell is 63. He used to run a corporate communications consultancy but gave it up in order to concentrate on what he sees as his new job, albeit one which is unpaid, critiquing articles which, in his view, are hostile to Scottish independence. His usual routine is to rise at six in the morning, sit down in the living room of his home in Perth, at his Acer 17-inch laptop, experience “low-level despair” while browsing the morning news and then put in a good 12 to 16 hours’ commenting shift. '

    Keeps them off the streets.
    I suppose it's preferable to telephoning the local council about alien abductions.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''By contrast, Sheffield Hallam is almost the polar opposite of Cornwall -- public-sector workers and liberal academics are disgusted with the actions of the Lib Dems, and crucially, they have a ready-made home in Labour.''


    Does this mean Julian Huppert is vulnerable in Cambridge?? Fascinating battle in the UK's new boom town.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited February 2014
    taffys said:

    ''By contrast, Sheffield Hallam is almost the polar opposite of Cornwall -- public-sector workers and liberal academics are disgusted with the actions of the Lib Dems, and crucially, they have a ready-made home in Labour.''


    Does this mean Julian Huppert is vulnerable in Cambridge?? Fascinating battle in the UK's new boom town.

    Yes, I definitely think he is (although I think Huppert has distanced himself a bit from some of the Coalition's more controversial policies, which might help him). I actually think that's one of Labour's more promising prospects in the south, even though they're starting from third.

    By contrast, I think we could potentially see some Lib Dem MPs in the southwest with precarious majorities of <5% manage to cling on. I don't think Lib Dem MPs will be suffering anything close to a uniform swing against them.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited February 2014
    Sean_F said:

    'Peter Bell is 63. He used to run a corporate communications consultancy but gave it up in order to concentrate on what he sees as his new job, albeit one which is unpaid, critiquing articles which, in his view, are hostile to Scottish independence. His usual routine is to rise at six in the morning, sit down in the living room of his home in Perth, at his Acer 17-inch laptop, experience “low-level despair” while browsing the morning news and then put in a good 12 to 16 hours’ commenting shift. '

    Keeps them off the streets.
    I suppose it's preferable to telephoning the local council about alien abductions.
    Or shouting in public libraries, and muttering odd things about Douglas Hurd to fellow passengers on public transport.

  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,861
    Calder Valley should be a fairly easy gain for Labour. in 2010 A large chunk of the previously Labour voters there really took exception to the Labour executive foisting Cherie Booth's step-mother onto the constituency as candidate. This is Borne out by the 2005 to 2010 drop in Labour vote being almost exactly matched buy the LD increase. In this constituency it is pretty safe to assume that more than that number will shift back to Labour in 2015.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,952
    RobD said:

    Disappointed that 'PB Tory' didn't get a mention.
    *chortle*
  • I'm out this evening, so there'll be no nighthawks.

    But there will be a thread on Scotland autopublishing around 8pm and it's a thread that will need your contributions on it.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 4,861
    Danny565 said:


    By contrast, I think we could potentially see some Lib Dem MPs in the southwest with precarious majorities of <5% manage to cling on. I don't think Lib Dem MPs will be suffering anything close to a uniform swing against them.</p>

    Of course. Centre and centre-left voters People in the south west (outside of Plymouth and Exeter) know only too well that their only chance to prevent a tory from winning the constituency is to vote LD. They'll hate doing it, but With FPTP they have no realistic choice.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    @Sean_F

    Stop Sean, Stop !!!

    @Danny565 is keeping me in stitches and you posting rational analysis will chase him away !!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,840
    edited February 2014
    Danny565 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If Clegg loses Hallam the Lib Dems are probably reduced to one seat, ten tops... Even as big a doom-monger for the Lib Dems at the next GE isn't predicting that.

    Not necessarily, because the Lib Dems are suffering more with certain demographics than they are with others. All the evidence is pointing to their popularity being sustained quite well among poor people who live in rural areas, for example in places like Cornwall -- they feel the Lib Dems are the only party who really understands them, most will never vote Labour because it's just culturally not something you do (probably because most poor rural areas don't have much history of a trade-union movement, so they simply didn't grow up in families where voting Labour was the done thing).

    By contrast, Sheffield Hallam is almost the polar opposite of Cornwall -- public-sector workers and liberal academics are disgusted with the actions of the Lib Dems, and crucially, they have a ready-made home in Labour.

    (TheScreamingEagles points out SH is very wealthy, but I think that's something of a red herring -- even wealthy public-sector workers tend to be very angry at the Coalition, which isn't exactly surprising since they've been telling them their wastes of spaces who are holding the country back.)
    Clegg's majority is enourmous though. 15000. And 19000 more than Labour.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    JackW said:

    @Sean_F

    Stop Sean, Stop !!!

    @Danny565 is keeping me in stitches and you posting rational analysis will chase him away !!

    Sadly, we can't all produce something as elegant as your ARSE can.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    I'm out this evening, so there'll be no nighthawks.

    But there will be a thread on Scotland autopublishing around 8pm and it's a thread that will need your contributions on it.

    Incoming from @Horetense .....

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,755

    Sean_F said:

    'Peter Bell is 63. He used to run a corporate communications consultancy but gave it up in order to concentrate on what he sees as his new job, albeit one which is unpaid, critiquing articles which, in his view, are hostile to Scottish independence. His usual routine is to rise at six in the morning, sit down in the living room of his home in Perth, at his Acer 17-inch laptop, experience “low-level despair” while browsing the morning news and then put in a good 12 to 16 hours’ commenting shift. '

    Keeps them off the streets.
    I suppose it's preferable to telephoning the local council about alien abductions.
    Or shouting in public libraries, and muttering odd things about Douglas Hurd to fellow passengers on public transport.

    I couldn't really understand his grievance about the lack of detail on maps of Scotland. Every map of the UK I've ever seen shows the same degree of detail for Scotland as everywhere else. It's not as if they just show a blank space with the words "here be dragons."

  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Some here may get a kick out of this -
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25915468
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    'Peter Bell is 63. He used to run a corporate communications consultancy but gave it up in order to concentrate on what he sees as his new job, albeit one which is unpaid, critiquing articles which, in his view, are hostile to Scottish independence. His usual routine is to rise at six in the morning, sit down in the living room of his home in Perth, at his Acer 17-inch laptop, experience “low-level despair” while browsing the morning news and then put in a good 12 to 16 hours’ commenting shift. '

    Keeps them off the streets.
    I suppose it's preferable to telephoning the local council about alien abductions.
    Or shouting in public libraries, and muttering odd things about Douglas Hurd to fellow passengers on public transport.

    I couldn't really understand his grievance about the lack of detail on maps of Scotland. Every map of the UK I've ever seen shows the same degree of detail for Scotland as everywhere else. It's not as if they just show a blank space with the words "here be dragons."

    He's crackers - basing 63 years of anger on a load of 'baws'.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Danny565 said:

    JackW said:

    @Sean_F

    Stop Sean, Stop !!!

    @Danny565 is keeping me in stitches and you posting rational analysis will chase him away !!

    Sadly, we can't all produce something as elegant as your ARSE can.
    I feel awful now ....

    But that's the most erudite comment you've ever made on PB .... and I can only wish it inspires you to better things but obviously not to the detriment of your comedic Hallam interventions.

    Just try and find an elegant equilibrium as my ARSE is wont to do.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Sean_F said:



    I couldn't really understand his grievance about the lack of detail on maps of Scotland. Every map of the UK I've ever seen shows the same degree of detail for Scotland as everywhere else. It's not as if they just show a blank space with the words "here be dragons."

    Sounds a bit like rationalisation. Scotland is sparser than the rest of the UK, so it would naturally show fewer settlements per unit area, if a population criteria was used.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    'Peter Bell is 63. He used to run a corporate communications consultancy but gave it up in order to concentrate on what he sees as his new job, albeit one which is unpaid, critiquing articles which, in his view, are hostile to Scottish independence. His usual routine is to rise at six in the morning, sit down in the living room of his home in Perth, at his Acer 17-inch laptop, experience “low-level despair” while browsing the morning news and then put in a good 12 to 16 hours’ commenting shift. '

    Keeps them off the streets.
    What a saddo.

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited February 2014
    eristdoof said:

    Danny565 said:


    By contrast, I think we could potentially see some Lib Dem MPs in the southwest with precarious majorities of <5% manage to cling on. I don't think Lib Dem MPs will be suffering anything close to a uniform swing against them.</p>

    Of course. Centre and centre-left voters People in the south west (outside of Plymouth and Exeter) know only too well that their only chance to prevent a tory from winning the constituency is to vote LD. They'll hate doing it, but With FPTP they have no realistic choice.
    @SeanT will tell you in Cornwall they take off their hair shirts and flagellate themselves before voting LibDem.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    boo hoo ...

    "norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 4m
    "Yob-time" #pmqs "Needs to be looked at" says @ed_miliband"
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,840
    If you honestly think Clegg is going to lose his seat then the Lib Dems are reduced to 7 seats by my calculations and a vote share of a smidgen under 5%.

    0-10 seats for the Lib Dems is 14-1 with Ladbrokes.
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,721
    Danny565 said:

    taffys said:

    ''By contrast, Sheffield Hallam is almost the polar opposite of Cornwall -- public-sector workers and liberal academics are disgusted with the actions of the Lib Dems, and crucially, they have a ready-made home in Labour.''


    Does this mean Julian Huppert is vulnerable in Cambridge?? Fascinating battle in the UK's new boom town.

    Yes, I definitely think he is (although I think Huppert has distanced himself a bit from some of the Coalition's more controversial policies, which might help him). I actually think that's one of Labour's more promising prospects in the south, even though they're starting from third.

    By contrast, I think we could potentially see some Lib Dem MPs in the southwest with precarious majorities of <5% manage to cling on. I don't think Lib Dem MPs will be suffering anything close to a uniform swing against them.</p>
    I think that I pretty much exactly disagree with you. Cambridge is safe for Huppert, and Hallam is safe for Clegg. By contrast in the South-West, I expect the LD's to lose Wells, 50/50 to lose each of Somerton and Taunton Deane, and potentially one of Devon North or Yeovil.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,840
    For all their woes the Lib Dems are bottoming out at ~ 8% in the polls.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,755

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    'Peter Bell is 63. He used to run a corporate communications consultancy but gave it up in order to concentrate on what he sees as his new job, albeit one which is unpaid, critiquing articles which, in his view, are hostile to Scottish independence. His usual routine is to rise at six in the morning, sit down in the living room of his home in Perth, at his Acer 17-inch laptop, experience “low-level despair” while browsing the morning news and then put in a good 12 to 16 hours’ commenting shift. '

    Keeps them off the streets.
    I suppose it's preferable to telephoning the local council about alien abductions.
    Or shouting in public libraries, and muttering odd things about Douglas Hurd to fellow passengers on public transport.

    I couldn't really understand his grievance about the lack of detail on maps of Scotland. Every map of the UK I've ever seen shows the same degree of detail for Scotland as everywhere else. It's not as if they just show a blank space with the words "here be dragons."

    He's crackers - basing 63 years of anger on a load of 'baws'.
    Imagine his reaction if Yes loses.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Lennon said:

    Danny565 said:

    taffys said:

    ''By contrast, Sheffield Hallam is almost the polar opposite of Cornwall -- public-sector workers and liberal academics are disgusted with the actions of the Lib Dems, and crucially, they have a ready-made home in Labour.''


    Does this mean Julian Huppert is vulnerable in Cambridge?? Fascinating battle in the UK's new boom town.

    Yes, I definitely think he is (although I think Huppert has distanced himself a bit from some of the Coalition's more controversial policies, which might help him). I actually think that's one of Labour's more promising prospects in the south, even though they're starting from third.

    By contrast, I think we could potentially see some Lib Dem MPs in the southwest with precarious majorities of <5% manage to cling on. I don't think Lib Dem MPs will be suffering anything close to a uniform swing against them.</p>
    I think that I pretty much exactly disagree with you. Cambridge is safe for Huppert, and Hallam is safe for Clegg. By contrast in the South-West, I expect the LD's to lose Wells, 50/50 to lose each of Somerton and Taunton Deane, and potentially one of Devon North or Yeovil.
    Labour favourites in Cambridge : 5/4 with Ladbrokes.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    edited February 2014

    dr_spyn said:

    LDs reminding Labour about its employment record.

    http://www.libdems.org.uk/30m_people_in_work

    The Coalition has to bang on endlessly about how it has done a fabulous job with keeping the workers in work*. And how every Labour Govt. leaves office with unemployment higher than it inherited. A statistic that makes members of the ironically-named Labour Party choke and splutter when I confront them with it....


    *"Keeping the Workers in Work!" What a wonderfully Soviet slogan. Jaw-jutting silhouettes of Cameron and Clegg under vast billowing Red - er Blue and Yellow - flags.....


    Not sure about this music by Eric Coates.

    http://www.
    youtube.com/watch?v=w1FIoNwfBQk&feature=kp

    Perhaps the Knightsbridge March or something more dramatic with Lancasters.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,840
    Lennon said:

    Danny565 said:

    taffys said:

    ''By contrast, Sheffield Hallam is almost the polar opposite of Cornwall -- public-sector workers and liberal academics are disgusted with the actions of the Lib Dems, and crucially, they have a ready-made home in Labour.''


    Does this mean Julian Huppert is vulnerable in Cambridge?? Fascinating battle in the UK's new boom town.

    Yes, I definitely think he is (although I think Huppert has distanced himself a bit from some of the Coalition's more controversial policies, which might help him). I actually think that's one of Labour's more promising prospects in the south, even though they're starting from third.

    By contrast, I think we could potentially see some Lib Dem MPs in the southwest with precarious majorities of <5% manage to cling on. I don't think Lib Dem MPs will be suffering anything close to a uniform swing against them.</p>
    I think that I pretty much exactly disagree with you. Cambridge is safe for Huppert, and Hallam is safe for Clegg. By contrast in the South-West, I expect the LD's to lose Wells, 50/50 to lose each of Somerton and Taunton Deane, and potentially one of Devon North or Yeovil.
    What do you make of their Scottish chances - Kennedy, Carmichael and Thurso of Thurso are safe. I can't speak for any of the others - Danny Alexander could be vulnerable...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    TGOHF said:

    'Peter Bell is 63. He used to run a corporate communications consultancy but gave it up in order to concentrate on what he sees as his new job, albeit one which is unpaid, critiquing articles which, in his view, are hostile to Scottish independence. His usual routine is to rise at six in the morning, sit down in the living room of his home in Perth, at his Acer 17-inch laptop, experience “low-level despair” while browsing the morning news and then put in a good 12 to 16 hours’ commenting shift. '

    Keeps them off the streets.
    What a saddo.

    Note his initials are PB :-)

    I was going to say this could be Porkie, but then who ever heard of a cybernat who lives in Scotland ?
  • Gordon Brown speaks;
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10646056/Gordon-Brown-warns-Scots-independence-means-losing-British-state-pension.html

    In the words of the late Tony Greig , it's goodnight Charlie for the Nats.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Sean_F said:


    Imagine his reaction if Yes loses.

    At least he will get his pension...
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    TGOHF said:

    boo hoo ...

    "norman smith ‏@BBCNormanS 4m
    "Yob-time" #pmqs "Needs to be looked at" says @ed_miliband"

    Ed, look at the man sitting next to you and tell him to calm down. It's Balls!
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    edited February 2014
    @MarqueeMark This one by Coates without the ukules.

    http://www.you
    tube.com/watch?v=6dNSKV8158o
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited February 2014
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    'Peter Bell is 63. He used to run a corporate communications consultancy but gave it up in order to concentrate on what he sees as his new job, albeit one which is unpaid, critiquing articles which, in his view, are hostile to Scottish independence. His usual routine is to rise at six in the morning, sit down in the living room of his home in Perth, at his Acer 17-inch laptop, experience “low-level despair” while browsing the morning news and then put in a good 12 to 16 hours’ commenting shift. '

    Keeps them off the streets.
    I suppose it's preferable to telephoning the local council about alien abductions.
    Or shouting in public libraries, and muttering odd things about Douglas Hurd to fellow passengers on public transport.

    I couldn't really understand his grievance about the lack of detail on maps of Scotland. Every map of the UK I've ever seen shows the same degree of detail for Scotland as everywhere else. It's not as if they just show a blank space with the words "here be dragons."

    He's crackers - basing 63 years of anger on a load of 'baws'.
    Imagine his reaction if Yes loses.

    I think we know the reaction from the Yes camp it will be how winning the Indyref will cost LibLabCon dear in the 2015 GE....

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Here's Gordon ...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10646056/Gordon-Brown-warns-Scots-independence-means-losing-British-state-pension.html

    "But the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland (ICAS) recently published a report stating the document had failed to answer a series of key questions about pensions.
    Despite the Nationalists’ claims to the contrary, the institute said funding the state pension in a separate Scotland would be "more of a challenge" because there would be fewer taxpayers for each OAP."
This discussion has been closed.