Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The 25-1 on Danny Alexander being LD leader at GE 2015 is g

SystemSystem Posts: 11,682
edited May 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The 25-1 on Danny Alexander being LD leader at GE 2015 is good value bet

For the Lib Dems I like the 25/1 that Paddy Power is offering on Danny Alexander. He’s positioned himself well as the continuity candidate and would, I think, get the backing of party grandees.

Read the full story here


«134

Comments

  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    You're lucky to just have polls to digest - we have a primary here May 20th, and my land line voice mail is now averaging over 30 messages a day: so much so I've turned the ringer off.

    It's not enough that I get messages from candidates urging me to support them for every office from county commissioner to congressman to senator to state house or state senator, from secretary for education to who knows what - that's ignoring the "press 1 if you're going to vote in the Republican primary, 3 if you're not sure, 4 if you need transport" stuff.

    Because of my zip code , I don't get Democratic calls.

    I'm noticing a new wrinkle as the frequency of calls ramps up ever higher - now candidates are calling urging me to join them and support other candidates for office - xxx who is running for xxx office, as if their own 'vote for me' message wasn't enough.

    There is a national 'do not call' list maintained by the feds, to prevent unsolicited marketing calls, and folks can get fined if you're on the list and they call you.

    I'm on the list - but political campaigning isn't included, as it's 'free speech'.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    But will Danny Alexander win his seat?
  • Options
    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    edited May 2014
    Looks good. He should wear his glasses though - and I am talking fashion.
  • Options
    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,414
    Speedy said:

    But will Danny Alexander win his seat?

    If he doesn't the Lib Dems are in serious trouble.

  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    Tim_B said:

    You're lucky to just have polls to digest - we have a primary here May 20th, and my land line voice mail is now averaging over 30 messages a day: so much so I've turned the ringer off.

    It's not enough that I get messages from candidates urging me to support them for every office from county commissioner to congressman to senator to state house or state senator, from secretary for education to who knows what - that's ignoring the "press 1 if you're going to vote in the Republican primary, 3 if you're not sure, 4 if you need transport" stuff.

    Because of my zip code , I don't get Democratic calls.

    I'm noticing a new wrinkle as the frequency of calls ramps up ever higher - now candidates are calling urging me to join them and support other candidates for office - xxx who is running for xxx office, as if their own 'vote for me' message wasn't enough.

    There is a national 'do not call' list maintained by the feds, to prevent unsolicited marketing calls, and folks can get fined if you're on the list and they call you.

    I'm on the list - but political campaigning isn't included, as it's 'free speech'.

    Bit like solar energy calls here.
  • Options
    FPT ToryJim
    Clegg hasn't been a commissioner, so it would be Cathy Ashton ;)

    Or Neil Kinnock
  • Options
    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,414

    FPT ToryJim
    Clegg hasn't been a commissioner, so it would be Cathy Ashton ;)

    Or Neil Kinnock

    Heaven forfend
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    You're lucky to just have polls to digest - we have a primary here May 20th, and my land line voice mail is now averaging over 30 messages a day: so much so I've turned the ringer off.

    It's not enough that I get messages from candidates urging me to support them for every office from county commissioner to congressman to senator to state house or state senator, from secretary for education to who knows what - that's ignoring the "press 1 if you're going to vote in the Republican primary, 3 if you're not sure, 4 if you need transport" stuff.

    Because of my zip code , I don't get Democratic calls.

    I'm noticing a new wrinkle as the frequency of calls ramps up ever higher - now candidates are calling urging me to join them and support other candidates for office - xxx who is running for xxx office, as if their own 'vote for me' message wasn't enough.

    There is a national 'do not call' list maintained by the feds, to prevent unsolicited marketing calls, and folks can get fined if you're on the list and they call you.

    I'm on the list - but political campaigning isn't included, as it's 'free speech'.

    Bit like solar energy calls here.
    Sort of - they all think the sun shines out of their posterior...
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Tim_B said:

    You're lucky to just have polls to digest - we have a primary here May 20th, and my land line voice mail is now averaging over 30 messages a day: so much so I've turned the ringer off.

    It's not enough that I get messages from candidates urging me to support them for every office from county commissioner to congressman to senator to state house or state senator, from secretary for education to who knows what - that's ignoring the "press 1 if you're going to vote in the Republican primary, 3 if you're not sure, 4 if you need transport" stuff.

    Because of my zip code , I don't get Democratic calls.

    I'm noticing a new wrinkle as the frequency of calls ramps up ever higher - now candidates are calling urging me to join them and support other candidates for office - xxx who is running for xxx office, as if their own 'vote for me' message wasn't enough.

    There is a national 'do not call' list maintained by the feds, to prevent unsolicited marketing calls, and folks can get fined if you're on the list and they call you.

    I'm on the list - but political campaigning isn't included, as it's 'free speech'.

    You are lucky to only listen to messages of candidates of a primary, I'm running for district councillor on Sunday, they do allow foreigners to run as councillors in my country of residence and canvassing in a district with 70000 voters is a tiresome thing to do.
  • Options
    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,435
    Fpt

    The ONS have recently issued their election statistics for the 2013 registration.
    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pop-estimate/electoral-statistics-for-uk/2013/stb---2013-electoral-statistics.html

    Looking at the difference between general election voters and local election voters this gives a difference of about 1.5m. In the main these would be registered EU voters (plus peers etc.)
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    SeanT said:

    Marine le Pen leads in French euro-polls.

    electionista ‏@electionista 27s
    France - CSA #EP2014 poll:

    FN 25%
    UMP 21%
    PS 18%
    UDI-MoDem 9%
    EELV 8%
    FdG 6.5%

    The populist right is on the march.

    But here's a thing, I find myself becoming more europhile as these elections go by. It's rather fun speculating on who is going to win in Bavaria, or Calabria, or Galicia, rather than just Nuneaton West.

    Same goes for eurovision. There are the faint signs of a European demos emerging. Very faint - but discernible.

    You can enjoy electoral speculation without being fond of the country or institution, like american presidencial elections.

  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Indeed, Mr. Speedy.
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Assuming Scotland is still on board, assuming he holds his seat, assuming the LDs think a nerdy Scotsman is the best way to hold the bulk of their seats, which are in England...

    Not impressed by either him or the 25/1, sorry...
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    FPT:

    Daemon barber has it nailed.
    To take the example of Christianity (for so I was raised), and to review the conversation in the pub the other night. Am I truly expected accept that I have free will, which I never asked for and existence I never craved which must be spent in a world full of injustice, disease and destruction with a personal fight against mental illness and watching those I love, friends, family and acquaintances fight their own battles, with the associated trauma and tragedy of life, only at the end of it to be expected to bow my knee in front of the creator of this chaos, sacrifice my free will, apologise for my 'sins' and spend eternity in slavery to a psychopath?
    No thanks.

    Couldn't reply earlier but the New Testament has a lot to answer for.

    The idea that God is a reasonable, Guardian-reading sort of chap, presiding benignly over some sort of celestial welfare state seems an absurdity, not least because it flies in the face of so much evidence.

    "Why does God let so many bad things happen?" Because he (or they) can. Hence the arrogance that God/s can be argued with as equals and demanded apologies from. Truly men raise themselves thus to be gods - and lo, the world shook about them.

    I'm not terribly inclined towards religion but if I was, I think the old-fashioned pagan / Greek / Roman / Norse gods would have a lot more going for them conceptually; ones who exist on their own plane and who interfere in the world for their own amusement or ends, though who can, as the mood takes them, reward acts of charity, justice and nobility.
  • Options
    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,414
    SeanT said:

    Marine le Pen leads in French euro-polls.

    electionista ‏@electionista 27s
    France - CSA #EP2014 poll:

    FN 25%
    UMP 21%
    PS 18%
    UDI-MoDem 9%
    EELV 8%
    FdG 6.5%

    The populist right is on the march.

    But here's a thing, I find myself becoming more europhile as these elections go by. It's rather fun speculating on who is going to win in Bavaria, or Calabria, or Galicia, rather than just Nuneaton West.

    Same goes for eurovision. There are the faint signs of a European demos emerging. Very faint - but discernible.

    Le Pen winning in France would be terrible, because let's face it she is an utterly vile individual.
  • Options
    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited May 2014
    Today's Survation poll had the LDs on 5% for (scottish) Westminster VI, losing 75% of their scottish 2010 vote. Is it certain that Mr Alexander will be re-elected in 2015?

  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Jim, I said much the same (I think) a few weeks before your reappearance. Most blokes, if given supreme power, would be far more like Zeus than God.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    If the French economy continues to slide I imagine LePen being able to win the 2017 elections in France, last poll had her losing 54-46 to Hollande. French nationalism is an ancient and powerfull force.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Is there any sentient human being who isn't at least slightly annoyed by Danny Alexander?
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @david_herdson

    It's always possible that there's an extremely powerful God who has a lot to look after in the universe. We're just one of a billion billion worlds.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Speedy, didn't a 'reasonable' French candidate get knocked out once, with the resulting two candidates being Chirac and the elder le Pen, leading to an easy Chirac win?

    I'd guess much the same thing would recur.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Socrates, the god of classical theism is omniscient and omnipotent. A well-filled in-tray is no excuse.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    I'd certainly go for Danny A if I had a vote, which probably means he can be ruled out.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    ToryJim said:

    Speedy said:

    But will Danny Alexander win his seat?

    If he doesn't the Lib Dems are in serious trouble.

    Today's Survation poll had the LDs on 5% for (scottish) Westminster VI, losing 75% of their scottish 2010 vote. Is it certain that Mr Alexander will be re-elected in 2015?

    I've backed the Nats in wee Danny's seat.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. T, have you been drinking?
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    RodCrosby said:

    Assuming Scotland is still on board, assuming he holds his seat, assuming the LDs think a nerdy Scotsman is the best way to hold the bulk of their seats, which are in England...

    Not impressed by either him or the 25/1, sorry...

    Can't have someone else who read PPE either.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Today's Survation poll had the LDs on 5% for (scottish) Westminster VI, losing 75% of their scottish 2010 vote. Is it certain that Mr Alexander will be re-elected in 2015?

    Not likely for him to keep his seat, he loses with a 10 point swing to Labour or a 13 to SNP, could easily happen in anti-tory Scotland.
  • Options
    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    AndyJS said:

    Is there any sentient human being who isn't at least slightly annoyed by Danny Alexander?

    I'm sure he's a decent bloke (although he made an ass of himself over Rennard) but someone who wears glasses, and can only do two expressions - stumped or startled - does not strike me as obvious leadership material...
    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=danny+alexander&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=fO50U_mZOYbgOMS9gKAH&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1280&bih=678
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    FPT:

    Whining about death seems to be the modern malaise.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    SeanT said:

    Speedy said:

    SeanT said:

    Marine le Pen leads in French euro-polls.

    electionista ‏@electionista 27s
    France - CSA #EP2014 poll:

    FN 25%
    UMP 21%
    PS 18%
    UDI-MoDem 9%
    EELV 8%
    FdG 6.5%

    The populist right is on the march.

    But here's a thing, I find myself becoming more europhile as these elections go by. It's rather fun speculating on who is going to win in Bavaria, or Calabria, or Galicia, rather than just Nuneaton West.

    Same goes for eurovision. There are the faint signs of a European demos emerging. Very faint - but discernible.

    You can enjoy electoral speculation without being fond of the country or institution, like american presidencial elections.

    Take your point - but it is more than that. Of late I do feel more connected to Europe than I did (perhaps because I travel so much). I am a European. I'm an Englishman first, then a Brit, then a Cornishman.... but I am also European, and the last is not entirely insignificant.

    Let's face it, we Europeans are all facing the same fate together: we used to rule the world, but now we live in much more hostile planet: we share a crowded, ageing, enfeebled continent menaced by lunatic ageing superpowers - America - and untrustworthy rising superpowers - China - who all want to duff us up (at least ecomomically) so we are forced to hang together or we will hang apart.

    It does make sense that we unite (much as I would have preferred an Anglospherical union, but the chance has gone).

    And a united Europe is quite a thing. A dazzling, beautiful thing with the best of landscapes, peoples, cuisines, cities. Incomparable. And not to be sniffed at. If only it could be realised in the best possible way: i.e. run by the English not the French.

    Crikey, Sean has started early today. I'll think I'll take myself off up to the New Inn and test out his theory. "Now then, Albert, what do you think of the chances of that Le Pen woman getting 25% of the vote for the Front National?" "Could right take Bavaria in the elections, d'you think?"

    I shall report back as to how I got on.
  • Options
    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,414

    Mr. Speedy, didn't a 'reasonable' French candidate get knocked out once, with the resulting two candidates being Chirac and the elder le Pen, leading to an easy Chirac win?

    I'd guess much the same thing would recur.

    Yes and let's face it if Le Pen gets to R2 it will be because Hollande hasn't. So it will be UMP v Le Pen
  • Options
    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    FPT

    MrJones said:

    http://healthland.time.com/2012/05/07/why-up-to-90-of-asian-schoolchildren-are-nearsighted/

    Up to 90% of east asian school kids short-sighted. Lack of sunlight apparently.

    Computers and video games rather than staying in to do homework would be my guess. It would be interesting to see how far these high rates go back.
    ditto
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited May 2014
    Miliband intervenes - Prescott style.

    twitter.com/Independent/status/466982217567465472/photo/1
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    On topic, I'm not persuaded (but then I have a habit of not being persuaded by Mike's long-odds bets which turn out to be better than I thought, so buyer beware and all that).

    Firstly, Scotland needs to vote No, which it probably will but it's still an uncertainty. Similarly, any vacancy in the Lib Dem leadership pre-September is going to be very difficult for a Scot to fill if the referendum looks tight (or Yes), which is likely to remain the case.

    Secondly, Alexander is surely too much on the Cleggite wing to win back the Red Liberals that they so desperately need to. I agree with Mike that Farron would stand a better chance after the election but he'd still be better placed to my mind beforehand.

    However, Cable would be better placed still to stand in as a temporary leader to see them through the election. Cable hasn't set the world alight at his department but nor has he done badly. Against a tough electoral backdrop, he'd be a safe pair of hands, which isn't necessarily the case for the younger generation. Young cardinals can happily vote for old popes. Were there to be a vacancy, would the Lib Dems want a potentially divisive leadership election a few months before the election, pitting coalitionistas against oppositionists? Or is it better to defer the thing until afterwards and unify round the elder statesman in the meantime?

    And then there's Alexander's own abilities. As a minister, he's been very effective; one of the Lib Dems' best. As a media performer, he's still a bit lightweight.

    25/1? I don't think so. As Mike says, the chances of a vacancy aren't high and if there is one, Alexander just has too many negatives. I wouldn't be backing south of 66/1.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    @SeanT I reckon Koreans are the smartest cookies personally, they dominate "Go" and Starcraft at the top levels. The hand-eye coordination required for top level Starcraft play dwarfs any other computer game or simulation out there. And a game of Go is a thing of beauty.
  • Options
    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    edited May 2014
    FPT
    ToryJim said:

    MrJones said:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100027284/eu-officials-plotted-imf-attack-to-bring-rebellious-italy-to-its-knees/

    The EU's coups in Greece and Italy are starting to unravel.

    Seeing as where possible the EU seem to prefer installing ex commissioners as the new governors after a coup if they did it here we might one day end up with Proconsul Clegg running the country. Wouldn't that be good.

    Clegg hasn't been a commissioner, so it would be Cathy Ashton ;)
    Hmm, I need another title that alliterates with Ashton.

    Grand Moff Mandelson was first choice but I forget what age he is.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Speedy said:

    If the French economy continues to slide I imagine LePen being able to win the 2017 elections in France, last poll had her losing 54-46 to Hollande. French nationalism is an ancient and powerfull force.

    True, but those same polls have Hollande floating at or below 20% in the first round so it's highly likely he wouldn't make it through. Against serious centre-right presidential candidates, Le Pen gets a trouncing in the same manner as her father did against Chirac.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    This is going to be one of those 25-1s where noone except Mike is on and then... STUFF happens and everyone is scrabbling to get on at 4s and 5s...
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Socrates said:

    @david_herdson

    It's always possible that there's an extremely powerful God who has a lot to look after in the universe. We're just one of a billion billion worlds.

    The Rama series of books has an interesting conjecture on how you could have a benevolent God, interested in the welfare of his creations, who does not intervene on a day to day basis.
  • Options
    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,288
    Telegraph and Guardian are proposing online GE debate between Cameron, Miliband and Clegg. No Farage.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/10833885/Party-leaders-urged-to-take-part-in-historic-online-debate.html
  • Options
    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    edited May 2014

    FPT:

    Daemon barber has it nailed.
    To take the example of Christianity (for so I was raised), and to review the conversation in the pub the other night. Am I truly expected accept that I have free will, which I never asked for and existence I never craved which must be spent in a world full of injustice, disease and destruction with a personal fight against mental illness and watching those I love, friends, family and acquaintances fight their own battles, with the associated trauma and tragedy of life, only at the end of it to be expected to bow my knee in front of the creator of this chaos, sacrifice my free will, apologise for my 'sins' and spend eternity in slavery to a psychopath?
    No thanks.

    Couldn't reply earlier but the New Testament has a lot to answer for.

    The idea that God is a reasonable, Guardian-reading sort of chap, presiding benignly over some sort of celestial welfare state seems an absurdity, not least because it flies in the face of so much evidence.

    "Why does God let so many bad things happen?" Because he (or they) can. Hence the arrogance that God/s can be argued with as equals and demanded apologies from. Truly men raise themselves thus to be gods - and lo, the world shook about them.

    I'm not terribly inclined towards religion but if I was, I think the old-fashioned pagan / Greek / Roman / Norse gods would have a lot more going for them conceptually; ones who exist on their own plane and who interfere in the world for their own amusement or ends, though who can, as the mood takes them, reward acts of charity, justice and nobility.
    "Why does God let so many bad things happen?"

    The irony is evolution provides an explanation. For evolution to work God would have to hang back the same way a parent has to hang back after taking the learner wheels off their kid's bike.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited May 2014
    SeanT said:

    Speedy said:

    SeanT said:

    Marine le Pen leads in French euro-polls.

    electionista ‏@electionista 27s
    France - CSA #EP2014 poll:

    FN 25%
    UMP 21%
    PS 18%
    UDI-MoDem 9%
    EELV 8%
    FdG 6.5%

    The populist right is on the march.

    But here's a thing, I find myself becoming more europhile as these elections go by. It's rather fun speculating on who is going to win in Bavaria, or Calabria, or Galicia, rather than just Nuneaton West.

    Same goes for eurovision. There are the faint signs of a European demos emerging. Very faint - but discernible.

    You can enjoy electoral speculation without being fond of the country or institution, like american presidencial elections.

    Take your point - but it is more than that. Of late I do feel more connected to Europe than I did (perhaps because I travel so much). I am a European. I'm an Englishman first, then a Brit, then a Cornishman.... but I am also European, and the last is not entirely insignificant.

    Let's face it, we Europeans are all facing the same fate together: we used to rule the world, but now we live in much more hostile planet: we share a crowded, ageing, enfeebled continent menaced by lunatic ageing superpowers - America - and untrustworthy rising superpowers - China - who all want to duff us up (at least ecomomically) so we are forced to hang together or we will hang apart.

    It does make sense that we unite (much as I would have preferred an Anglospherical union, but the chance has gone).

    And a united Europe is quite a thing. A dazzling, beautiful thing with the best of landscapes, peoples, cuisines, cities. Incomparable. And not to be sniffed at. If only it could be realised in the best possible way: i.e. run by the English not the French.

    Every time europe has united it became incredibly weak on all counts, socially, politically and technologically. Like Rome from a dynamic republic to an unstable empire that ultimately fell to a bunch of barbarians. Europe's strength is its national competition on who is going to have the best political system, the best social one, the most territory, the best army and the most advanced technology, a united europe has no national competition and simply decays. Case in point as things stand the whole of the eurozone will be the same size economically in the world as Japan in 1990 by the end of this decade and much worse politically and socially that the old EEC in 1990, while a divided europe conquered most of the world in 500 years and created parliament, social security and the steam engine.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,302
    Slightly bizarre if illuminating and entertaining thread this afternoon. From this I gleaned:

    (1) God probably does not exist except in Universes where he does.

    (2) Whether this is one of those Universes probably depends on whether we observe/worship him or not under quantum theory (especially if he or she is a cat?)

    (3) A Universe where God does exist is inherently more plausible than either a charismatic Ed or a credible Nick.

    (4) The tories are probably going to hold Newark in this Universe and pretty much every conceivable one.

    Did I miss anything?
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Socrates said:

    @david_herdson

    It's always possible that there's an extremely powerful God who has a lot to look after in the universe. We're just one of a billion billion worlds.

    The Rama series of books has an interesting conjecture on how you could have a benevolent God, interested in the welfare of his creations, who does not intervene on a day to day basis.
    I remember Lobsang Rampa books - they were popular among the way out folks in the 60s and early to mid 70s.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    No Farage.

    Maybe that might be better for Farage. He has become a proxy for all kinds of people whose only common trait is they don't like the liblabcon.

    Nail him down to views on common-or-garden policy, and perhaps a few followers might be disappointed.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    SeanT said:

    The speculations of PB atheists as to the nature of God are intriguingly similar to the speculations of pb English Tories about Scottish politics.

    A sort of arrogant loftiness, hiding deep existential anxiety, masked with flailing certitude.

    No, we know far more about the nature of God. Malcolm's said so.
  • Options
    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Speedy said:

    SeanT said:

    Speedy said:

    SeanT said:

    Marine le Pen leads in French euro-polls.

    electionista ‏@electionista 27s
    France - CSA #EP2014 poll:

    FN 25%
    UMP 21%
    PS 18%
    UDI-MoDem 9%
    EELV 8%
    FdG 6.5%

    The populist right is on the march.

    But here's a thing, I find myself becoming more europhile as these elections go by. It's rather fun speculating on who is going to win in Bavaria, or Calabria, or Galicia, rather than just Nuneaton West.

    Same goes for eurovision. There are the faint signs of a European demos emerging. Very faint - but discernible.

    You can enjoy electoral speculation without being fond of the country or institution, like american presidencial elections.

    Take your point - but it is more than that. Of late I do feel more connected to Europe than I did (perhaps because I travel so much). I am a European. I'm an Englishman first, then a Brit, then a Cornishman.... but I am also European, and the last is not entirely insignificant.

    Let's face it, we Europeans are all facing the same fate together: we used to rule the world, but now we live in much more hostile planet: we share a crowded, ageing, enfeebled continent menaced by lunatic ageing superpowers - America - and untrustworthy rising superpowers - China - who all want to duff us up (at least ecomomically) so we are forced to hang together or we will hang apart.

    It does make sense that we unite (much as I would have preferred an Anglospherical union, but the chance has gone).

    And a united Europe is quite a thing. A dazzling, beautiful thing with the best of landscapes, peoples, cuisines, cities. Incomparable. And not to be sniffed at. If only it could be realised in the best possible way: i.e. run by the English not the French.

    Every time europe has united it became incredibly weak on all counts, socially, politically and technologically. Like Rome from a dynamic republic to an unstable empire that ultimately fell to a bunch of barbarians. Europe's strength is its national competition on who is going to have the best political system, the best social one, the most territory, the best army and the most advanced technology, a united europe has no national competition and simply decays. Case in point as things stand the whole of the eurozone will be the same size economically in the world as Japan in 1990 by the end of this decade and much worse politically and socially that the old EEC in 1990, while a divided europe conquered most of the world in 500 years and created parliament, social security and the steam engine.
    Spot on. It's why China stagnated after their early lead imo.
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    MikeL said:

    Telegraph and Guardian are proposing online GE debate between Cameron, Miliband and Clegg. No Farage.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/10833885/Party-leaders-urged-to-take-part-in-historic-online-debate.html

    Pathetic, pathetic, pathetic. I'll be cancelling my Telegraph subscription if they do this. UKIP are far higher than the Lib Dems in the polls. The media are supposed to be there to report on events, not fix them themselves.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    First up what is the chance of Clegg being leader at GE2015. That is the first question that must be answered before the others.

    Is it over 80% ? If so then Clegg at 1-4 is the value.

    But this is a tricky thing to measure.
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    Mr. Socrates, the god of classical theism is omniscient and omnipotent. A well-filled in-tray is no excuse.

    Why should I limit myself to "classical" (whatever that means) theism?
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    SeanT said:

    Take your point - but it is more than that. Of late I do feel more connected to Europe than I did (perhaps because I travel so much). I am a European. I'm an Englishman first, then a Brit, then a Cornishman.... but I am also European, and the last is not entirely insignificant.

    Let's face it, we Europeans are all facing the same fate together: we used to rule the world, but now we live in much more hostile planet: we share a crowded, ageing, enfeebled continent menaced by lunatic ageing superpowers - America - and untrustworthy rising superpowers - China - who all want to duff us up (at least ecomomically) so we are forced to hang together or we will hang apart.

    It does make sense that we unite (much as I would have preferred an Anglospherical union, but the chance has gone).

    And a united Europe is quite a thing. A dazzling, beautiful thing with the best of landscapes, peoples, cuisines, cities. Incomparable. And not to be sniffed at. If only it could be realised in the best possible way: i.e. run by the English not the French.

    Europe needs a few things in order to become a Nation.

    It needs an enemy - The Hundred Years' War was massively important in creating national identity in both England and France. Hopefully we could avoid a war, but perhaps having Russia as an enemy would do wonders for European unity.

    It needs to have a clear idea of what it has in common that makes it different to the rest of the world - Hopefully this would be things like the rule of law, the welfare state and multi-party democracy, but, well. I've heard historians argue that for England the things that mattered in the early modern era were: not being Irish, not being Catholic and possessing English liberty.

    It needs a creation myth - Lord knows we have enough history in which to find one, but it needs to be something that everyone can unite round, just as in England there are stories like Arthur and the Knight's of the Round Table, or Robin Hood, or Alfred and his burnt cakes.

    It needs a leader - Most of all Europe needs a leader who leads for all of Europe. At the moment, when politicians go to Brussels they do so to extract the best deal for their own country, rather than having an ideological conflict over the best policy for Europe as a whole. If ideology ever becomes more important than the perceived national interest in European politics it will mark an important step on the road to creating a European nation.

    I tend to think that if it is going to happen it isn't going to be this time. Too many mistakes have been made and too much goodwill has been lost. A period of disunity struggling in a world dominated by China and the US may concentrate minds on taking the endeavour more seriously next time.
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Danny is far to fiscally sane, too pragmatic and too realpolitik for the LD leadership.

    The snake Farron is a shoe in.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,335
    There's something deliciously PB about SeanT, sitting in Thailand, expressing mildly pro-Europe views and getting approving nods from me, sitting in Vietnam. It's the cosmopolitan conspiracy, y'know.
    Speedy said:



    You are lucky to only listen to messages of candidates of a primary, I'm running for district councillor on Sunday, they do allow foreigners to run as councillors in my country of residence and canvassing in a district with 70000 voters is a tiresome thing to do.

    Canvassing an area with 70,000 voters sounds very familiar! Where are you standing, and for whom, or as an independent?

    On topic, it needs Clegg to go but the consensus to be that the party still needs a strong pro-Coalition person. 25-1 does sound a good price, but Cable would fit the bill better - he's always been about as differentiated as the party currently wants to be (i.e. votes with the Government, sits as a senior Minister, but is disdainful about it), and a natural caretaker who could easily resign without disgrace if the election goes badly.

  • Options
    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    Meme Alert

    *Cosmopolitan Conspiracy*
  • Options
    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,414
    Socrates said:

    MikeL said:

    Telegraph and Guardian are proposing online GE debate between Cameron, Miliband and Clegg. No Farage.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/10833885/Party-leaders-urged-to-take-part-in-historic-online-debate.html

    Pathetic, pathetic, pathetic. I'll be cancelling my Telegraph subscription if they do this. UKIP are far higher than the Lib Dems in the polls. The media are supposed to be there to report on events, not fix them themselves.
    The Lib Dems have more seats and after the next election will still have more seats than UKIP.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Speedy said:

    SeanT said:

    Speedy said:



    You can enjoy electoral speculation without being fond of the country or institution, like american presidencial elections.

    Take your point - but it is more than that. Of late I do feel more connected to Europe than I did (perhaps because I travel so much). I am a European. I'm an Englishman first, then a Brit, then a Cornishman.... but I am also European, and the last is not entirely insignificant.

    Let's face it, we Europeans are all facing the same fate together: we used to rule the world, but now we live in much more hostile planet: we share a crowded, ageing, enfeebled continent menaced by lunatic ageing superpowers - America - and untrustworthy rising superpowers - China - who all want to duff us up (at least ecomomically) so we are forced to hang together or we will hang apart.

    It does make sense that we unite (much as I would have preferred an Anglospherical union, but the chance has gone).

    And a united Europe is quite a thing. A dazzling, beautiful thing with the best of landscapes, peoples, cuisines, cities. Incomparable. And not to be sniffed at. If only it could be realised in the best possible way: i.e. run by the English not the French.

    Every time europe has united it became incredibly weak on all counts, socially, politically and technologically. Like Rome from a dynamic republic to an unstable empire that ultimately fell to a bunch of barbarians. Europe's strength is its national competition on who is going to have the best political system, the best social one, the most territory, the best army and the most advanced technology, a united europe has no national competition and simply decays. Case in point as things stand the whole of the eurozone will be the same size economically in the world as Japan in 1990 by the end of this decade and much worse politically and socially that the old EEC in 1990, while a divided europe conquered most of the world in 500 years and created parliament, social security and the steam engine.
    Que? Rome went from being an unstable republic *to* a stable empire, which was good for 200 years before slowly declining (about the same time as Europe's global hegemony, also destroyed from within.

    In any case, both periods were marked by massive technological advantages over 'the rest'; something no longer possible in a globalised world:

    Whatever happens, we have got
    The Maxim gun, and they have not.

    Sean's right. There are two types of state in the world: powers of the first rank and everyone else. We're currently everyone else. A united EU wouldn't be.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Speedy said:

    If the French economy continues to slide I imagine LePen being able to win the 2017 elections in France, last poll had her losing 54-46 to Hollande. French nationalism is an ancient and powerfull force.

    True, but those same polls have Hollande floating at or below 20% in the first round so it's highly likely he wouldn't make it through. Against serious centre-right presidential candidates, Le Pen gets a trouncing in the same manner as her father did against Chirac.
    But the center right is split, Cope and Fillion both want to run against each other, and Sarkozy assuming no scandals resurface from his failed presidency (a big if) only beats LePen by 67-33 instead of 83-17 that Chirac managed, with a split center right Hollande can get through to the second round.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Socrates said:

    @david_herdson

    It's always possible that there's an extremely powerful God who has a lot to look after in the universe. We're just one of a billion billion worlds.

    1,000,000,000,000 (10 to the 12) worlds may well be something of an underestimate. NASA currently projects there are perhaps 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars (10 to the 27) in the universe. If by "world" you mean planet, then we seem to be confirming that many other stars have a planetary system. This is still subject to the limitation of how to spot planets of Earth size - most of the planets discovered so far have been gas giants, but recently a few Earth-like planets are being claimed. So the number of worlds could be a multiple of that.

    It may be that there is a God required for each galaxy. That would still be a management headache....
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Pulpstar said:

    First up what is the chance of Clegg being leader at GE2015. That is the first question that must be answered before the others.

    Is it over 80% ? If so then Clegg at 1-4 is the value.

    But this is a tricky thing to measure.

    I think 1/4 is about right. But that makes the rest of the field shockingly poor value unless there's a pearl in there ('the rest' should be 4/1; in fact, *two* alternatives are priced lower than that, never mind the others).
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    There's something deliciously PB about SeanT, sitting in Thailand, expressing mildly pro-Europe views and getting approving nods from me, sitting in Vietnam. It's the cosmopolitan conspiracy, y'know.

    Speedy said:



    You are lucky to only listen to messages of candidates of a primary, I'm running for district councillor on Sunday, they do allow foreigners to run as councillors in my country of residence and canvassing in a district with 70000 voters is a tiresome thing to do.

    ...

    On topic, it needs Clegg to go but the consensus to be that the party still needs a strong pro-Coalition person. ...

    But that's the inherent contradiction. If the Lib Dems still need a strong pro-Coalition person, why would they dump Clegg? Alternatively, if they want to differentiate themselves from their time in coalition, why would they pick Alexander?
  • Options
    johnstevensjohnstevens Posts: 51
    david_herdson and Sean Quite right on a united Europe. As to DA as LD leader, surely either way the Scottish referendum makes this very unlikely?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    @David_Herdson You're right. Farron/Cable are the most appaling bets here.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,927
    SeanT said:

    The speculations of PB atheists as to the nature of God are intriguingly similar to the speculations of pb English Tories about Scottish politics.

    A sort of arrogant loftiness, hiding deep existential anxiety, masked with flailing certitude.

    Sean, I have written a blog.. would you be so kind as to have a look and give me some pointers before I publish it please?
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    edited May 2014

    Speedy said:

    SeanT said:

    Speedy said:



    You can enjoy electoral speculation without being fond of the country or institution, like american presidencial elections.

    Take your point - but it is more than that. Of late I do feel more connected to Europe than I did (perhaps because I travel so much). I am a European. I'm an Englishman first, then a Brit, then a Cornishman.... but I am also European, and the last is not entirely insignificant.

    Let's face it, we Europeans are all facing the same fate together: we used to rule the world, but now we live in much more hostile planet: we share a crowded, ageing, enfeebled continent menaced by lunatic ageing superpowers - America - and untrustworthy rising superpowers - China - who all want to duff us up (at least ecomomically) so we are forced to hang together or we will hang apart.

    It does make sense that we unite (much as I would have preferred an Anglospherical union, but the chance has gone).

    And a united Europe is quite a thing. A dazzling, beautiful thing with the best of landscapes, peoples, cuisines, cities. Incomparable. And not to be sniffed at. If only it could be realised in the best possible way: i.e. run by the English not the French.

    Every time europe has united it became incredibly weak on all counts, socially, politically and technologically. Like Rome from a dynamic republic to an unstable empire that ultimately fell to a bunch of barbarians. Europe's strength is its national competition on who is going to have the best political system, the best social one, the most territory, the best army and the most advanced technology, a united europe has no national competition and simply decays. Case in point as things stand the whole of the eurozone will be the same size economically in the world as Japan in 1990 by the end of this decade and much worse politically and socially that the old EEC in 1990, while a divided europe conquered most of the world in 500 years and created parliament, social security and the steam engine.
    Que? Rome went from being an unstable republic *to* a stable empire, which was good for 200 years before slowly declining (about the same time as Europe's global hegemony, also destroyed from within.

    In any case, both periods were marked by massive technological advantages over 'the rest'; something no longer possible in a globalised world:

    Whatever happens, we have got
    The Maxim gun, and they have not.

    Sean's right. There are two types of state in the world: powers of the first rank and everyone else. We're currently everyone else. A united EU wouldn't be.
    A united EU would never be possible on foreign policy. When was the last time the UK, France and Germany all agreed on a contentious foreign policy issue?
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    edited May 2014
    Talking to someone when in Hong Kong, I was told that there are possibly more indigenous languages in everyday use in China than there are in Europe. And they are more or less mutually unintelligible. Even someone with no idea - ie, me - can tell that Cantonese and Mandarin are very different, for example. What unites all of them is the written language. Because written Chinese is based not on letters that make up words, but symbols that define concepts people that speak completely different languages can read something and get the same meaning from it - it's just that in their heads they hear different words. Without that common thread it is very possible that China would not be a single country today. And even now the central government has to work very hard to keep things together. There is a reason why there are no time zones in China and it is completely political.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,973

    On topic, I'm not persuaded (but then I have a habit of not being persuaded by Mike's long-odds bets which turn out to be better than I thought, so buyer beware and all that).

    Firstly, Scotland needs to vote No, which it probably will but it's still an uncertainty. Similarly, any vacancy in the Lib Dem leadership pre-September is going to be very difficult for a Scot to fill if the referendum looks tight (or Yes), which is likely to remain the case.

    Secondly, Alexander is surely too much on the Cleggite wing to win back the Red Liberals that they so desperately need to. I agree with Mike that Farron would stand a better chance after the election but he'd still be better placed to my mind beforehand.

    However, Cable would be better placed still to stand in as a temporary leader to see them through the election. Cable hasn't set the world alight at his department but nor has he done badly. Against a tough electoral backdrop, he'd be a safe pair of hands, which isn't necessarily the case for the younger generation. Young cardinals can happily vote for old popes. Were there to be a vacancy, would the Lib Dems want a potentially divisive leadership election a few months before the election, pitting coalitionistas against oppositionists? Or is it better to defer the thing until afterwards and unify round the elder statesman in the meantime?

    And then there's Alexander's own abilities. As a minister, he's been very effective; one of the Lib Dems' best. As a media performer, he's still a bit lightweight.

    25/1? I don't think so. As Mike says, the chances of a vacancy aren't high and if there is one, Alexander just has too many negatives. I wouldn't be backing south of 66/1.

    He is a fanny and hopefully will be dumped by a large margin , has more faces than the town clock.
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @SeanT

    "Economies of scale" describe something happening at the firm level. What are the economies of scale that exist at the international level? This is the same old high level guff that europhiles come out all the time. We need "clout" and "openness", but they're never practically defined.
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Incidentally, if we really wanted to override our sovereignty to have influence in a super power, we'd be better off joining the United States. We'd have the largest vote in the electoral college and be part of a country that is actually growing economically and demographically, as well as having the balls to stand up in the world.
  • Options
    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    SeanT said:

    Speedy said:



    Every time europe has united it became incredibly weak on all counts, socially, politically and technologically. Like Rome from a dynamic republic to an unstable empire that ultimately fell to a bunch of barbarians. Europe's strength is its national competition on who is going to have the best political system, the best social one, the most territory, the best army and the most advanced technology, a united europe has no national competition and simply decays. Case in point as things stand the whole of the eurozone will be the same size economically in the world as Japan in 1990 by the end of this decade and much worse politically and socially that the old EEC in 1990, while a divided europe conquered most of the world in 500 years and created parliament, social security and the steam engine.

    This is nonsense twice over.


    1. Europe was united under the Romans, during which time humanity made more advances than ever before or since - until the Renaissance.

    2. Europe's division into competitive nations made sense when Europe was basically the only part of the world on the march. We were all divvying up the world and industrialising, no one else was in the tournament, we all shared the spoils.

    But now Europe faces fierce and menacing competition from continent-sized rivals: USA, China. India, and, in time, Brazil and Indonesia. Now we need economies of scale to fend off the competition.

    Put it another way, I don't see many Americans trying to divide the nation into 50 competing states, so they can all take on China individually. Do you?

    1. There was very little advance under the Romans. There was much more during the time of the competing Greek city-states. Just look at the names: Archimedes, Plato, Aristotle etc.

    2. China was well ahead for most of early history and then it stagnated.
  • Options
    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    A united EU would never be possible on foreign policy. When was the last time the UK, France and Germany all agreed on a contentious foreign policy issue?

    Unless I'm very much mistaken they agree far, far more than they used to....

    That's the spectre that haunts me a bit with getting out. Some generation down the line marching off to fight Germans or French.

    Or both.

    Never again.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,973

    SeanT said:

    The speculations of PB atheists as to the nature of God are intriguingly similar to the speculations of pb English Tories about Scottish politics.

    A sort of arrogant loftiness, hiding deep existential anxiety, masked with flailing certitude.

    No, we know far more about the nature of God. Malcolm's said so.
    David, One hopes that pb Tories know more about God than they do Scottish politics , be hard not to.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,335
    And now David Herdson joins the conspiracy - and I believe he's even currently in Britain. We're on a croissant, as we Europhiles like to put it.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Socrates said:

    Incidentally, if we really wanted to override our sovereignty to have influence in a super power, we'd be better off joining the United States. We'd have the largest vote in the electoral college and be part of a country that is actually growing economically and demographically, as well as having the balls to stand up in the world.

    A properly united Europe would have a government that could take decisions without worrying about having to balance competing national interests. It would certainly make it harder for people like Putin to play people off against each other.
  • Options
    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,414
    taffys said:

    A united EU would never be possible on foreign policy. When was the last time the UK, France and Germany all agreed on a contentious foreign policy issue?

    Unless I'm very much mistaken they agree far, far more than they used to....

    That's the spectre that haunts me a bit with getting out. Some generation down the line marching off to fight Germans or French.

    Or both.

    Never again.

    Even with the EU I'd never say never.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    malcolmg said:

    On topic, I'm not persuaded (but then I have a habit of not being persuaded by Mike's long-odds bets which turn out to be better than I thought, so buyer beware and all that).

    Firstly, Scotland needs to vote No, which it probably will but it's still an uncertainty. Similarly, any vacancy in the Lib Dem leadership pre-September is going to be very difficult for a Scot to fill if the referendum looks tight (or Yes), which is likely to remain the case.

    Secondly, Alexander is surely too much on the Cleggite wing to win back the Red Liberals that they so desperately need to. I agree with Mike that Farron would stand a better chance after the election but he'd still be better placed to my mind beforehand.

    However, Cable would be better placed still to stand in as a temporary leader to see them through the election. Cable hasn't set the world alight at his department but nor has he done badly. Against a tough electoral backdrop, he'd be a safe pair of hands, which isn't necessarily the case for the younger generation. Young cardinals can happily vote for old popes. Were there to be a vacancy, would the Lib Dems want a potentially divisive leadership election a few months before the election, pitting coalitionistas against oppositionists? Or is it better to defer the thing until afterwards and unify round the elder statesman in the meantime?

    And then there's Alexander's own abilities. As a minister, he's been very effective; one of the Lib Dems' best. As a media performer, he's still a bit lightweight.

    25/1? I don't think so. As Mike says, the chances of a vacancy aren't high and if there is one, Alexander just has too many negatives. I wouldn't be backing south of 66/1.

    He is a fanny and hopefully will be dumped by a large margin , has more faces than the town clock.
    David - I still remember when you rubbished my 33/1 tip on George Galloway.

    Anybody can tip odds on favourites. I go for long-shots, announce it advance and my record is pretty good. You can have a lot of losers if a 25/1 shot comes in.
  • Options
    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited May 2014
    malcolmg said:

    On topic, I'm not persuaded (but then I have a habit of not being persuaded by Mike's long-odds bets which turn out to be better than I thought, so buyer beware and all that).

    Firstly, Scotland needs to vote No, which it probably will but it's still an uncertainty. Similarly, any vacancy in the Lib Dem leadership pre-September is going to be very difficult for a Scot to fill if the referendum looks tight (or Yes), which is likely to remain the case.

    Secondly, Alexander is surely too much on the Cleggite wing to win back the Red Liberals that they so desperately need to. I agree with Mike that Farron would stand a better chance after the election but he'd still be better placed to my mind beforehand.

    However, Cable would be better placed still to stand in as a temporary leader to see them through the election. Cable hasn't set the world alight at his department but nor has he done badly. Against a tough electoral backdrop, he'd be a safe pair of hands, which isn't necessarily the case for the younger generation. Young cardinals can happily vote for old popes. Were there to be a vacancy, would the Lib Dems want a potentially divisive leadership election a few months before the election, pitting coalitionistas against oppositionists? Or is it better to defer the thing until afterwards and unify round the elder statesman in the meantime?

    And then there's Alexander's own abilities. As a minister, he's been very effective; one of the Lib Dems' best. As a media performer, he's still a bit lightweight.

    25/1? I don't think so. As Mike says, the chances of a vacancy aren't high and if there is one, Alexander just has too many negatives. I wouldn't be backing south of 66/1.

    He is a fanny and hopefully will be dumped by a large margin , has more faces than the town clock.
    With such insight and analysis, surely malcolmg is now a dead cert for poster of the year?

  • Options
    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523



    Que? Rome went from being an unstable republic *to* a stable empire, which was good for 200 years before slowly declining (about the same time as Europe's global hegemony, also destroyed from within.

    In any case, both periods were marked by massive technological advantages over 'the rest'; something no longer possible in a globalised world:

    Whatever happens, we have got
    The Maxim gun, and they have not.

    Sean's right. There are two types of state in the world: powers of the first rank and everyone else. We're currently everyone else. A united EU wouldn't be.

    There were far more technological advances during the Greek period.
  • Options
    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    edited May 2014
    Mandarin and Cantonese are pretty similar.

    [What are the economies of scale that exist at the international level?]

    I admittedly had to Google it - it's Comparative Advantage -

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ricardo

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ricardo#Comparative_advantage
  • Options
    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    edited May 2014
    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    Incidentally, if we really wanted to override our sovereignty to have influence in a super power, we'd be better off joining the United States. We'd have the largest vote in the electoral college and be part of a country that is actually growing economically and demographically, as well as having the balls to stand up in the world.

    The USA is in secular decline. And I mean DECLINE. They've lost their mojo. Look at this graph:

    twitter.com/EconEconomics/status/465036219492356097/photo/1

    America is in decline because their 1% off-shored the US economy.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    The Roman Empire had many civil wars compared with the period before the transition to Empire and it went downhill after Nero on all areas.
    A united europe will be historically as strong as the Holy Roman Empire besieged by Vikings, Muslims and Mongols. In the history of mankind everytime europe was united it was weak and everytime it was divided it was strong. Another case in point that national competition trumps size: Netherlands vs Habsburgs during the 16th and 17th centuries, the mighty Habsburg Empire was defeated by the Amsterdam traders, stockbrokers and republicans (A model for Britain vs EU).
  • Options
    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    Socrates said:

    Incidentally, if we really wanted to override our sovereignty to have influence in a super power, we'd be better off joining the United States. We'd have the largest vote in the electoral college and be part of a country that is actually growing economically and demographically, as well as having the balls to stand up in the world.

    A properly united Europe would have a government that could take decisions without worrying about having to balance competing national interests. It would certainly make it harder for people like Putin to play people off against each other.
    A "properly" united Europe would be able to take decisions without worrying about national democracies.

    It's good to see the LibLabCon Europhiles flying their united colours.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    JBriskin said:

    Mandarin and Cantonese are pretty similar.

    [What are the economies of scale that exist at the international level?]

    I admittedly had to Google it - it's Comparative Advantage -

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ricardo

    They are mutually unintelligible - at least that is what the Cantonese-speaking members of staff in our HK office told me. I can't understand either of them.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I like this bet for all the reasons that our host gives. I'm on. Though Paddy Power allowed me all of £1.63 on this bet. (That's not my record low limit of the week: Paddy Power restricted me to 40p earlier in the week and Stan James allowed me 20p on a bet yesterday.)

    Nick Clegg is unlikely to stand down. I expect he's good value at 1/4, actually, but I don't like betting on something that is largely dependent on the thoughts of one man. And that 1/4 is likely to lengthen at the end of the month.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,332
    I see SeanT is going through one of his europhiles phases again. I sympathise with the plight of Ukraine , love holidaying in France, enjoy Eurovision and have a Bulgarian wife.

    None of that means I want political union with the EU. If there are countries that share our interests in international affairs - great. We can ally with them in accordance with other interests on a case-by-case basis. I see no need to farm that out to an EU superstate. Nor would I want to.

    I also don't think the UK is 'someone else'. We are likely to be the most populous nation in Europe in 30 years time,we're in the top 10 countries for population (or thereabouts) and easily a top 5-7 economy. Plus we have the worlds language, and immense cultural heritage and contemporary soft power.

    I'm more than comfortable with Britain being a sustainable independent country on those figures, even in the very long-term.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    MrJones said:

    Socrates said:

    Incidentally, if we really wanted to override our sovereignty to have influence in a super power, we'd be better off joining the United States. We'd have the largest vote in the electoral college and be part of a country that is actually growing economically and demographically, as well as having the balls to stand up in the world.

    A properly united Europe would have a government that could take decisions without worrying about having to balance competing national interests. It would certainly make it harder for people like Putin to play people off against each other.
    A "properly" united Europe would be able to take decisions without worrying about national democracies.

    It's good to see the LibLabCon Europhiles flying their united colours.

    Who said I agreed with the idea? Were there to be a US of Europe, the "national democracies" would no longer exist - they would presumably have the same status as US states.

    I'd have thought one of the really big barriers to a USE is language. There'd need to be a common one. And there isn't. And there won't be. Despite the dominance of English.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,332
    I see SeanT is going through one of his europhiles phases again. I sympathise with the plight of Ukraine , love holidaying in France, enjoy Eurovision and have a Bulgarian wife.

    None of that means I want political union with the EU. If there are countries that share our interests in international affairs - great. We can ally with them in accordance with other interests on a case-by-case basis. I see no need to farm that out to an EU superstate. Nor would I want to.

    I also don't think the UK is 'someone else'. We are likely to be the most populous nation in Europe in 30 years time,we're in the top 10 countries for population (or thereabouts) and easily a top 5-7 economy. Plus we have the worlds language, and immense cultural heritage and contemporary soft power.

    I'm more than comfortable with Britain being a sustainable independent country on those figures, even in the very long-term.
  • Options
    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    edited May 2014

    "Mandarin and Cantonese are pretty similar."

    They are mutually unintelligible - at least that is what the Cantonese-speaking members of staff in our HK office told me. I can't understand either of them.

    Yes - but they're clearly both chinese, I doubt you could tell the difference if someone started speaking to you in either language.

  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    JBriskin said:

    Mandarin and Cantonese are pretty similar.

    [What are the economies of scale that exist at the international level?]

    I admittedly had to Google it - it's Comparative Advantage -

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ricardo

    They are mutually unintelligible - at least that is what the Cantonese-speaking members of staff in our HK office told me. I can't understand either of them.
    As different as European languages are to each other. Chinese is a character based language where everyone understands what the character means but would pronounce it differently.

    The best example is a brit, an italian and a russian are presented with the character

    5

    they all know what it means but now ask them to pronounce it. If they say it they can't understand each other, if they write it they can.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    edited May 2014
    JBriskin said:

    "Mandarin and Cantonese are pretty similar."

    They are mutually unintelligible - at least that is what the Cantonese-speaking members of staff in our HK office told me. I can't understand either of them.

    Yes - but they're clearly both chinese, I doubt you could tell the difference if someone started speaking to you in either language.

    I can tell the difference. Cantonese is like people with marbles in their mouths. Mandarin is much crisper. I can even tell a Beijing accent - lots of r noises. I believe there are more tones in Cantonese.

    Italian, Spanish, French, Catalan etc are all similar, but they are separate languages.



  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990

    SeanT said:

    Take your point - but it is more than that. Of late I do feel more connected to Europe than I did (perhaps because I travel so much). I am a European. I'm an Englishman first, then a Brit, then a Cornishman.... but I am also European, and the last is not entirely insignificant.

    Let's face it, we Europeans are all facing the same fate together: we used to rule the world, but now we live in much more hostile planet: we share a crowded, ageing, enfeebled continent menaced by lunatic ageing superpowers - America - and untrustworthy rising superpowers - China - who all want to duff us up (at least ecomomically) so we are forced to hang together or we will hang apart.

    It does make sense that we unite (much as I would have preferred an Anglospherical union, but the chance has gone).

    And a united Europe is quite a thing. A dazzling, beautiful thing with the best of landscapes, peoples, cuisines, cities. Incomparable. And not to be sniffed at. If only it could be realised in the best possible way: i.e. run by the English not the French.

    Europe needs a few things in order to become a Nation.

    It needs an enemy - The Hundred Years' War was massively important in creating national identity in both England and France. Hopefully we could avoid a war, but perhaps having Russia as an enemy would do wonders for European unity.

    It needs to have a clear idea of what it has in common that makes it different to the rest of the world - Hopefully this would be things like the rule of law, the welfare state and multi-party democracy, but, well. I've heard historians argue that for England the things that mattered in the early modern era were: not being Irish, not being Catholic and possessing English liberty.

    It needs a creation myth - Lord knows we have enough history in which to find one, but it needs to be something that everyone can unite round, just as in England there are stories like Arthur and the Knight's of the Round Table, or Robin Hood, or Alfred and his burnt cakes.

    It needs a leader - Most of all Europe needs a leader who leads for all of Europe. At the moment, when politicians go to Brussels they do so to extract the best deal for their own country, rather than having an ideological conflict over the best policy for Europe as a whole. If ideology ever becomes more important than the perceived national interest in European politics it will mark an important step on the road to creating a European nation.

    I tend to think that if it is going to happen it isn't going to be this time. Too many mistakes have been made and too much goodwill has been lost. A period of disunity struggling in a world dominated by China and the US may concentrate minds on taking the endeavour more seriously next time.
    Bring back to Holy Roman Empire?
  • Options
    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    I must say - I find that example quite poor Alanbrooke-

    Mandarin and Cantonese share the same written language.

    That's all one needs to know.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited May 2014
    MrJones said:

    Socrates said:

    Incidentally, if we really wanted to override our sovereignty to have influence in a super power, we'd be better off joining the United States. We'd have the largest vote in the electoral college and be part of a country that is actually growing economically and demographically, as well as having the balls to stand up in the world.

    A properly united Europe would have a government that could take decisions without worrying about having to balance competing national interests. It would certainly make it harder for people like Putin to play people off against each other.
    A "properly" united Europe would be able to take decisions without worrying about national democracies.

    It's good to see the LibLabCon Europhiles flying their united colours.
    A united europe will degenerate into despotism and economic stagnation as people would not be able to pressure their governments about living conditions in better european countries (as there will be none) and centralisation will lead to something like soviet levels of efficiency, even now the eurozone's economic performance is worse than that of the USSR in its dying last years.
  • Options
    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    edited May 2014
    "Europe needs a few things in order to become a Nation.

    It needs an enemy"

    Ironically the most likely way for Europe to become a demos is through opposition to the EU.

    edit: which is why SeanT is right imo that there are hints of one forming but it's the opposite one the europhiles want
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,973

    malcolmg said:

    On topic, I'm not persuaded (but then I have a habit of not being persuaded by Mike's long-odds bets which turn out to be better than I thought, so buyer beware and all that).

    Firstly, Scotland needs to vote No, which it probably will but it's still an uncertainty. Similarly, any vacancy in the Lib Dem leadership pre-September is going to be very difficult for a Scot to fill if the referendum looks tight (or Yes), which is likely to remain the case.

    Secondly, Alexander is surely too much on the Cleggite wing to win back the Red Liberals that they so desperately need to. I agree with Mike that Farron would stand a better chance after the election but he'd still be better placed to my mind beforehand.

    However, Cable would be better placed still to stand in as a temporary leader to see them through the election. Cable hasn't set the world alight at his department but nor has he done badly. Against a tough electoral backdrop, he'd be a safe pair of hands, which isn't necessarily the case for the younger generation. Young cardinals can happily vote for old popes. Were there to be a vacancy, would the Lib Dems want a potentially divisive leadership election a few months before the election, pitting coalitionistas against oppositionists? Or is it better to defer the thing until afterwards and unify round the elder statesman in the meantime?

    And then there's Alexander's own abilities. As a minister, he's been very effective; one of the Lib Dems' best. As a media performer, he's still a bit lightweight.

    25/1? I don't think so. As Mike says, the chances of a vacancy aren't high and if there is one, Alexander just has too many negatives. I wouldn't be backing south of 66/1.

    He is a fanny and hopefully will be dumped by a large margin , has more faces than the town clock.
    David - I still remember when you rubbished my 33/1 tip on George Galloway.

    Anybody can tip odds on favourites. I go for long-shots, announce it advance and my record is pretty good. You can have a lot of losers if a 25/1 shot comes in.
    Very true Mike , but there is a real good chance he will not make it either via YES vote or getting dumped next year as Lib Dems are not exactly very popular in Scotland at present. Far too many hurdles to make 25/1 a good bet.
  • Options
    JBriskinJBriskin Posts: 2,380
    edited May 2014
    SouthernObeserver - I think it's quite impressive you can tell the difference, I must say I can't, but it's a Cosmopolitan Conspiracy and I'm not proud of it (not being able to tell the difference).
  • Options
    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Speedy said:


    MrJones said:

    Socrates said:

    Incidentally, if we really wanted to override our sovereignty to have influence in a super power, we'd be better off joining the United States. We'd have the largest vote in the electoral college and be part of a country that is actually growing economically and demographically, as well as having the balls to stand up in the world.

    A properly united Europe would have a government that could take decisions without worrying about having to balance competing national interests. It would certainly make it harder for people like Putin to play people off against each other.
    A "properly" united Europe would be able to take decisions without worrying about national democracies.

    It's good to see the LibLabCon Europhiles flying their united colours.
    A united europe will degenerate into despotism and economic stagnation as people would not be able to pressure their governments about living conditions in better european countries (as there will be none) and centralisation will lead to something like soviet levels of efficiency, even now the eurozone's economic performance is worse than that of the USSR in its dying last years.
    Decision by brown envelope.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,973

    malcolmg said:

    On topic, I'm not persuaded (but then I have a habit of not being persuaded by Mike's long-odds bets which turn out to be better than I thought, so buyer beware and all that).

    Firstly, Scotland needs to vote No, which it probably will but it's still an uncertainty. Similarly, any vacancy in the Lib Dem leadership pre-September is going to be very difficult for a Scot to fill if the referendum looks tight (or Yes), which is likely to remain the case.

    Secondly, Alexander is surely too much on the Cleggite wing to win back the Red Liberals that they so desperately need to. I agree with Mike that Farron would stand a better chance after the election but he'd still be better placed to my mind beforehand.

    However, Cable would be better placed still to stand in as a temporary leader to see them through the election. Cable hasn't set the world alight at his department but nor has he done badly. Against a tough electoral backdrop, he'd be a safe pair of hands, which isn't necessarily the case for the younger generation. Young cardinals can happily vote for old popes. Were there to be a vacancy, would the Lib Dems want a potentially divisive leadership election a few months before the election, pitting coalitionistas against oppositionists? Or is it better to defer the thing until afterwards and unify round the elder statesman in the meantime?

    And then there's Alexander's own abilities. As a minister, he's been very effective; one of the Lib Dems' best. As a media performer, he's still a bit lightweight.

    25/1? I don't think so. As Mike says, the chances of a vacancy aren't high and if there is one, Alexander just has too many negatives. I wouldn't be backing south of 66/1.

    He is a fanny and hopefully will be dumped by a large margin , has more faces than the town clock.
    With such insight and analysis, surely malcolmg is now a dead cert for poster of the year?

    Whilst you will be challenging Scott for bottom of the dung heap.
  • Options
    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    Incidentally, if we really wanted to override our sovereignty to have influence in a super power, we'd be better off joining the United States. We'd have the largest vote in the electoral college and be part of a country that is actually growing economically and demographically, as well as having the balls to stand up in the world.

    The USA is in secular decline. And I mean DECLINE. They've lost their mojo. Look at this graph:

    twitter.com/EconEconomics/status/465036219492356097/photo/1

    Perhaps. But if the US is in secular decline, the EU is in complete collapse. I also note the US turned a corner at the end of that graph - just after the recession - and then they've had three years of growth since.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited May 2014
    SeanT said:

    Socrates said:

    Incidentally, if we really wanted to override our sovereignty to have influence in a super power, we'd be better off joining the United States. We'd have the largest vote in the electoral college and be part of a country that is actually growing economically and demographically, as well as having the balls to stand up in the world.

    The USA is in secular decline. And I mean DECLINE. They've lost their mojo. Look at this graph:

    twitter.com/EconEconomics/status/465036219492356097/photo/1

    If America is in decline what about Europe?
    First lesson of nations: Stand by your own feet, by joining declining powers or regions you decline too.
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    edited May 2014
    Regarding the 'does God exist?' argument - no surprise that in my neck of the woods there is little or no doubt. Virtually everyone I know here has a personal relationship with Gahd / mylordandsaviorjesuschrist (delete where applicable).

    As believers that all life is sacred they are all anti-abortion yet pro-death penalty.

    My understanding of basic christianity includes being caring, compassionate, and considerate to others. There is an unwritten yet understood suffix in the south - "as long as they agree with me and have my values."

    They go to church each Sunday and praise the Lord for the birds of the sky and all the beasts of the field, then go home, change, and go out to hunt and kill a few.

    According to Gallup a year or so ago, 46% of Americans think that God made humans within the last 10,000 years.

    Which brings us to the US House Science, Space and Technology Committee, which should be a bulwark of common sense.

    The Democrats are pretty loony - they want to close all coal power plants tommorow, close all the nuclear plants asap, put wind farms everywhere, stop oil drilling and tax energy companies out of existence.

    Then there are the Republican members. US Rep Paul Broun, running for US Senate, and a physician - yes, a qualified medical doctor, said to a church audience in an off the record speech a couple of years ago that evolution, the big bang theory and embryology are lies from the pit of hell.

    He was at a meeting in my area a couple of weeks back so I went along just for fun. It wasn't too well attended so I got to ask him if he actually said that. He waffled a bit and then said it was misquoted, was an off the record, private meeting, and taken out of context.

    Fair enough - here's the context -

    God’s word is true. I’ve come to understand that. All that stuff I was taught about evolution, embryology, Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell. It’s lies to try to keep me and all the folks who are taught that from understanding that they need a savior. There’s a lot of scientific data that I found out as a scientist that actually show that this is really a young Earth. I believe that the Earth is about 9,000 years old. I believe that it was created in six days as we know them. That’s what the Bible says. And what I’ve come to learn is that it’s the manufacturer’s handbook, is what I call it. It teaches us how to run our lives individually. How to run our families, how to run our churches. But it teaches us how to run all our public policy and everything in society. And that’s the reason, as your congressman, I hold the Holy Bible as being the major directions to me of how I vote in Washington, D.C., and I’ll continue to do that.

    As a result of his comments over 5000 people in the 10th district voted for Charles Darwin as a write in candidate in the 2012 election.

    Why does he support Israel? No geo-political reasoning - it's because of a promise God made to Abraham.

This discussion has been closed.