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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Will the next Tory leader be elected unopposed?

SystemSystem Posts: 11,020
edited June 2013 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Will the next Tory leader be elected unopposed?

With all the recent weeks discussions about David Cameron’s leadership ending this parliament, the one thing that has crossed my mind is that if David Cameron is replaced as Tory Leader during this parliament, can the party, the coalition and the country cope with a long drawn out leadership contest?

Read the full story here


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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,426
    edited June 2013
    Why the eff is it I spend an hour writing and proof checking a thread, but the moment I publish it, I spot a typo.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    I hope not. The public are sick of coronations.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Will the next Tory leader be elected unopposed.

    Nah.....the tories love a good family scrap...
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited June 2013
    As a general point, under the UK parliamentary system and with parties now expected to listen to their members - with formal procedures for choosing a new leader - it is incredibly difficult to switch leader when you are in power. That was one of the obstacles to ditching Brown. In the old days, it was less of a problem: the men in grey suits could sidle in to the PM's office, put the pearl-handled revolver on the table, and have it all sorted in a matter of hours, without the inconvenience of consulting thousands of party members or even hundreds of MPs. Those days are long gone, and the hurdles for deposing a sitting PM are now very considerable. One should bet accordingly.
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    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019

    Why the eff is it I spend an hour writing and proof checking a thread, but the moment I publish it, I spot a typo.

    Don't worry TSE, it happens to me al the thyme :-)
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413

    Why the eff is it I spend an hour writing and proof checking a thread, but the moment I publish it, I spot a typo.

    That is a universal law of nature.

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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215

    As a general point, under the UK parliamentary system and with parties now expected to listen to their members - with formal procedures for choosing a new leader - it is incredibly difficult to switch leader when you are in power. That was one of the obstacles to ditching Brown. In the old days, it was less of a problem: the men in grey suits could sidle in to the PM's office, put the pearl-handled revolver on the table, and have it all sorted in a matter of hours, without the inconvenience of consulting thousands of party members or even hundreds of MPs. Those days are long gone, and the hurdles for deposing a sitting PM are now very considerable. One should bet accordingly.

    Except it never happened in the old days either: I can't recall any PM in the twentieth century who was so deposed.

    Anyway, as all acute observers of the political scene will attest, assuredly there will be a vigorous contest when PM Cameron decides to retire a year after being re-elected for a second time in 2021.
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    FPT: Wow, Polly has got the hornets buzzing. 819 comments and counting.

    The most amusing thing is that a lot of the incensed CIFers are shouting 'Betrayal!' at Balls for his tentative, grudging and so far minimal acceptance of the laws of arithmetic, and demanding he be replaced by.. Alistair Darling. Well, yes, Darling would certainly be a better choice, but not for the reason the CIFers think. Quite the opposite, in fact; he'd embrace reality more vigorously.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,426
    JohnO said:

    As a general point, under the UK parliamentary system and with parties now expected to listen to their members - with formal procedures for choosing a new leader - it is incredibly difficult to switch leader when you are in power. That was one of the obstacles to ditching Brown. In the old days, it was less of a problem: the men in grey suits could sidle in to the PM's office, put the pearl-handled revolver on the table, and have it all sorted in a matter of hours, without the inconvenience of consulting thousands of party members or even hundreds of MPs. Those days are long gone, and the hurdles for deposing a sitting PM are now very considerable. One should bet accordingly.

    Except it never happened in the old days either: I can't recall any PM in the twentieth century who was so deposed.

    Anyway, as all acute observers of the political scene will attest, assuredly there will be a vigorous contest when PM Cameron decides to retire a year after being re-elected for a second time in 2021.
    Neville Chamberlain?

  • Options
    pbr2013pbr2013 Posts: 649
    FPT re ugliness, and from memory, "many's the man with a head like Solomon and a brain like a turnip". Brendan Berhan, Borstal Boy.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Shale gas resources ten times bigger than we thought, says IGas
    Britain's hopes of a shale gas boom received a major boost on Monday after fracking firm IGas dramatically increased its estimate of the amount of gas trapped within the rocks of north-west England."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/10097133/Shale-gas-resources-ten-times-bigger-than-we-thought-says-IGas.html
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    pbr2013pbr2013 Posts: 649
    Still can't find the edit function on a BB. Behan.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,426

    FPT: Wow, Polly has got the hornets buzzing. 819 comments and counting.

    The most amusing thing is that a lot of the incensed CIFers are shouting 'Betrayal!' at Balls for his tentative, grudging and so far minimal acceptance of the laws of arithmetic, and demanding he be replaced by.. Alistair Darling. Well, yes, Darling would certainly be a better choice, but not for the reason the CIFers think. Quite the opposite, in fact; he'd embrace reality more vigorously.

    That's nothing, SeanT had nearly 2000 comments on his telegraph piece last week.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    edited June 2013
    @TSE - Possibly the closest, but his fate was sealed after the humiliation of the Norway debate. It was the Commons, in perhaps their finest hour, that did him in (and then the Labour Party which refused to serve under him)
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    FPT:

    Logically speaking, if it's illegal to discriminate against someone because of their race, gender or sexuality, it should also be illegal to discriminate against someone based on how attractive or unattractive they are, since a person cannot choose what they look like any more than they can choose their race, gender, etc.

    I suspect the reason for the current illogical position is that people are able to feel sympathetic towards, say, a black, female or gay person being treated unfairly in a way they don't towards unattractive people.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    FPT: Wow, Polly has got the hornets buzzing. 819 comments and counting.

    The most amusing thing is that a lot of the incensed CIFers are shouting 'Betrayal!' at Balls for his tentative, grudging and so far minimal acceptance of the laws of arithmetic, and demanding he be replaced by.. Alistair Darling. Well, yes, Darling would certainly be a better choice, but not for the reason the CIFers think. Quite the opposite, in fact; he'd embrace reality more vigorously.

    That's nothing, SeanT had nearly 2000 comments on his telegraph piece last week.
    Sean is more beautiful than Polly.

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    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    FPT: Wow, Polly has got the hornets buzzing. 819 comments and counting.

    The most amusing thing is that a lot of the incensed CIFers are shouting 'Betrayal!' at Balls for his tentative, grudging and so far minimal acceptance of the laws of arithmetic, and demanding he be replaced by.. Alistair Darling. Well, yes, Darling would certainly be a better choice, but not for the reason the CIFers think. Quite the opposite, in fact; he'd embrace reality more vigorously.

    Alistair Darling , the man who promised cuts " tougher and deeper " than those of Thatcher in the 80's.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8587877.stm
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,653

    FPT: Wow, Polly has got the hornets buzzing. 819 comments and counting.
    .

    It seems to be "upset your readers day" as Dan Hodges has an excellent piece in the Telegraph on racist Tory Traditionalists - the comments so far are pretty mild by usual standards....

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    FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    FPT:

    [Cornwall's finest Telegraph geezer.]
    Beauty has a purpose. It indicates healthy genes. And symmetry is crucial to beauty.
    A standard plate is symmetrical (as far as the human-brain can measure). Most vinyl records were stamped similarly.

    The added-value is in the exceptions; a gene-pool that shows adaptability and demonstrates God's gift that is evolution. A broken nose may signify strength whilst a - ahem - skin-parting toward one thigh may show receiptability.

    Symmetry does not exist in nature: Only in the minds of fools. Show me a Zebra with a rule-measure and I'll identify to you a cartoon....
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    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited June 2013
    tim said:

    FPT: Wow, Polly has got the hornets buzzing. 819 comments and counting.

    The most amusing thing is that a lot of the incensed CIFers are shouting 'Betrayal!' at Balls for his tentative, grudging and so far minimal acceptance of the laws of arithmetic, and demanding he be replaced by.. Alistair Darling. Well, yes, Darling would certainly be a better choice, but not for the reason the CIFers think. Quite the opposite, in fact; he'd embrace reality more vigorously.

    Alistair Darling , the man who promised cuts " tougher and deeper " than those of Thatcher in the 80's.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8587877.stm

    Not difficult, Thatcher hardly made any cuts, she was busy increasing benefit dependency.
    It's interesting that Polly christens Ed Balls " Labour's Iron Man ". Shows , probably subconsciously , respect for the Iron Lady.

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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351

    Great news about the shale gas reserves. Let's get fracking ... bye bye Blackpool and the polar bears. And let's get rid of the badgers while we're at it. But bring back the Badger, Labour.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Meanwhile, the diehards in the House of Lords are moving beyond parody:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10097771/Lord-Dannatt-Gay-marriage-Bill-goes-against-what-Ive-fought-for-as-a-soldier.html

    I burst out laughing at the url, but even better was to come in the article:

    "Hereditary peer Lord Hylton has hit out at the way the "delightful" word "gay" had been taken over by homosexuals.

    The 80-year-old independent crossbench peer made his comments as he spoke out against same-sex marriage.

    He also argued that "medical opinion" was against gay marriage."

    Lord Dannatt might also reflect on the idea that an unelected peer should be using his status to complain about the abuse of "the democratic process".
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,653
    18 reasons for voting against gay marriage from Planet Tharg the House of Lords:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/06/18-arguments-made-against-gay-marriage-house-lords

    The wisest words: " Do I want to vote against this Bill? Yes. Should I? No."
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    MarchesMarches Posts: 51
    antifrank said:

    Meanwhile, the diehards in the House of Lords are moving beyond parody:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10097771/Lord-Dannatt-Gay-marriage-Bill-goes-against-what-Ive-fought-for-as-a-soldier.html

    I burst out laughing at the url, but even better was to come in the article:

    "Hereditary peer Lord Hylton has hit out at the way the "delightful" word "gay" had been taken over by homosexuals.

    The 80-year-old independent crossbench peer made his comments as he spoke out against same-sex marriage.

    He also argued that "medical opinion" was against gay marriage."

    Lord Dannatt might also reflect on the idea that an unelected peer should be using his status to complain about the abuse of "the democratic process".

    To be fair to Dannat, the DT headline is some way distinct from his actual words which are looking to process. Hasn't stopped the phobes various appearing, though.
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Thus spoke the poker of Telegraph nests
    Beauty has a purpose. It indicates healthy genes.
    This may have once been the case, but can it be said to be true in an age of cosmetic surgery?
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2013
    Yup - and Dan Hodges grasped a very uncomfortable nettle for the Big Three. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100220130/most-tory-traditionalists-arent-racist-but-most-tory-racists-are-traditionalists-what-is-the-right-going-to-do-about-its-patrick-mercers/

    "But it’s equally true that the Tory party still has a problem with easy prejudice, and those that harbour such views invariably find their home amongst the traditionalists. Or, to put it another way, whilst most Tory traditionalists aren’t racist, the vast majority of Tory racists are traditionalists.

    The response of the traditionalist wing of the Tory party to this charge is invariably indignation, followed by deflection. “All political parties have a problem with racism,” they claim. And they’re right. Labour has a serious and growing problem with anti-Semitism, as do elements of the Liberal Democrats. And I’ve regularly written about it, and condemned it. But shouting “look over there!” doesn’t help you deal with what’s standing behind you.

    I’ve never met Patrick Mercer. But, given the way in which he was happy to share his unacceptable views on race with journalists and lobbyists, I can’t believe he kept them hidden from his colleagues. And yet he was tolerated, and welcome, within the traditionalist fold.

    When it was reported that Cameron loyalist Andrew Feldman had described Tory activists as, “swivel-eyed loons” (comments he denies), the Tory Right was fighting to get to the airwaves to denounce him. With Patrick Mercer and his “Jew” comment there has been tumbleweed.

    Indeed, those who have commented have tended to try to defend him by pointing to his military service in Northern Ireland. Sorry, it doesn’t work like that. Yes, Mercer’s service should be respected. But tours of Northern Ireland don’t earn you Jewish joke credits..."
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    AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    The Hospice of Lords should provide enough entertainment with the gay marriage debate
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Thus spoke the poker of Telegraph nests

    Beauty has a purpose. It indicates healthy genes.
    This may have once been the case, but can it be said to be true in an age of cosmetic surgery?

    Perhaps to a very teeny degree - but how many of us either male or female are fooled by fake breasts or face-lifts et al? Not many. Some may not care what their mate looked like before the *enhancements* - I certainly would if I wanted attractive offspring.

    Test your instincts in spotting fake boobs here - http://earthli.com/quizzes/view_quiz.php?id=2 NSFW but appeared in Playboy.
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    PBModeratorPBModerator Posts: 661
    edited June 2013
    @ TIM
    FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBT, YOU MAY NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOEVER SPECULATE ABOUT ANYTHING TO DO WITH NEWS CORP, NEWS INTERNATIONAL OR ANYTHING TO DO WITH ANY POLICE INVESTIGATION INTO THE AFOREMENTIONED
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    Tories crowning a leader just like Labour and Brown ought to bang that proposal on its head.



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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    Alistair Darling: we will cut deeper than Margaret Thatcher.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/mar/25/alistair-darling-cut-deeper-margaret-thatcher
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Darling will be flavour of the month with Labour activists...
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    OT, first there was that thing where Ed Balls tweeted "Ed Balls" and everyone retweeted it, now this:
    http://usvsth3m.com/post/52129842503/all-work-and-no-play-makes-jack-a-dull-boy

    What does it mean for a political career when you become a slightly surreal meme?
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    If beauty is all that matters someone like Penny Mordaunt ought to be the next Tory leader.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2013
    AndyJS said:

    If beauty is all that matters someone like Penny Mordaunt ought to be the next Tory leader.

    That reminds of the Hot or Not variant for MPs http://www.sexymp.co.uk/ - Owen Paterson is currently #1 male with Sarah Teather as #1 female - WTF? Sarah Teather?

    Holy Hell - I've just been asked which I'd prefer Chris Williamson for Labour or James Gray for the Tories - I'd require roofies just to keep my sanity intact....
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    tim said:

    @MattChorley: Tory MP and his wife accused of groping lesbian housekeeper as they asked her for a threesome http://t.co/eQT8BSSHKP

    Bi Bi By-Election?

    They wouldn't have a by-election over that, would they? It's sounds like her word against theirs, and even if it happened it was probably just the result of an innocent mix-up at the temp agency or something.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    @Tim

    Once again the powers that be assume no one will be able to work out who the Tory MP in question is. Just by implying it's a male MP with a wife the number of possibilities are narrowed down quite considerably.
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    JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    'Yes Scotland urges No campaign to suspend 'lesson plan' packs for teachers'

    Yes Scotland today urged the No campaign to suspend its plans to send campaign materials - including 'lesson plans' for teachers - to schools.

    Chief Executive Blair Jenkins has written to Alistair Darling asking him to await guidance from the Electoral Commission and Education Scotland before proceeding with his campaign's schools initiative.

    The move comes after Yes Scotland was contacted by parents and teachers concerned about the No campaign plan.


    http://www.yesscotland.net/yes_scotland_urges_no_campaign_to_suspend_lesson_plan_packs_for_teachers
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    AndyJS said:

    @Tim

    Once again the powers that be assume no one will be able to work out who the Tory MP in question is. Just by implying it's a male MP with a wife the number of possibilities are narrowed down quite considerably.

    This reminds me of Mr & Mrs Hamilton's case that was proven to be entirely made-up by an attention seeker. Maybe I'm a bit relaxed here, but I really don't give a fig what MPs or their spouses or employees do or don't do with their reproductive organs provided its legal.

    The splurge of MP sex stories seems a bit weird to me - is there about to be some judgement on Leveson or libel or whatever that's prompting the outing or it it coincidence? I gather one is an employment tribunal.

    We've had the unknown two from the Mail this Sunday, now this story and of course the Deputy Speaker and Mr Hancock has just resigned the whip too if my RSS feed is correct.

    That's quite a haul for less than a week.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    Plato said:

    AndyJS said:

    @Tim

    Once again the powers that be assume no one will be able to work out who the Tory MP in question is. Just by implying it's a male MP with a wife the number of possibilities are narrowed down quite considerably.

    This reminds me of Mr & Mrs Hamilton's case that was proven to be entirely made-up by an attention seeker. Maybe I'm a bit relaxed here, but I really don't give a fig what MPs or their spouses or employees do or don't do with their reproductive organs provided its legal.

    The splurge of MP sex stories seems a bit weird to me - is there about to be some judgement on Leveson or libel or whatever that's prompting the outing or it it coincidence? I gather one is an employment tribunal.

    We've had the unknown two from the Mail this Sunday, now this story and of course the Deputy Speaker and Mr Hancock has just resigned the whip too if my RSS feed is correct.

    That's quite a haul for less than a week.
    Life is ALWAYS better under the Conservatives.
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    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    'Yes Scotland urges No campaign to suspend 'lesson plan' packs for teachers'

    Yes Scotland today urged the No campaign to suspend its plans to send campaign materials - including 'lesson plans' for teachers - to schools.

    Chief Executive Blair Jenkins has written to Alistair Darling asking him to await guidance from the Electoral Commission and Education Scotland before proceeding with his campaign's schools initiative.

    The move comes after Yes Scotland was contacted by parents and teachers concerned about the No campaign plan.


    http://www.yesscotland.net/yes_scotland_urges_no_campaign_to_suspend_lesson_plan_packs_for_teachers

    Salmond wanted to give children the vote. Now he's complaining about children being involved in political debate.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    JohnO said:

    Plato said:

    AndyJS said:

    @Tim

    Once again the powers that be assume no one will be able to work out who the Tory MP in question is. Just by implying it's a male MP with a wife the number of possibilities are narrowed down quite considerably.

    This reminds me of Mr & Mrs Hamilton's case that was proven to be entirely made-up by an attention seeker. Maybe I'm a bit relaxed here, but I really don't give a fig what MPs or their spouses or employees do or don't do with their reproductive organs provided its legal.

    The splurge of MP sex stories seems a bit weird to me - is there about to be some judgement on Leveson or libel or whatever that's prompting the outing or it it coincidence? I gather one is an employment tribunal.

    We've had the unknown two from the Mail this Sunday, now this story and of course the Deputy Speaker and Mr Hancock has just resigned the whip too if my RSS feed is correct.

    That's quite a haul for less than a week.
    Life is ALWAYS better under the Conservatives.
    I'm always reminded of the truism - Tories are caught in sex scandals, Labour ones over money and LDs over the more colourful end of the scale.

    I wonder what the SNP will become known for :^ )
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    JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Salmond wanted to give children the vote. Now he's complaining about children being involved in political debate."

    So you'd be relaxed about Yes Scotland propaganda being taught in schools by teachers, and would regard that simply as "children being involved in political debate"? Excellent, that's useful to know. When the complaints come in, I'll look forward to you sending a supportive letter from your villa in Lombardia.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,927
    edited June 2013

    OT, first there was that thing where Ed Balls tweeted "Ed Balls" and everyone retweeted it, now this:
    http://usvsth3m.com/post/52129842503/all-work-and-no-play-makes-jack-a-dull-boy

    What does it mean for a political career when you become a slightly surreal meme?

    Malkovich
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    edited June 2013
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2013
    OT The Mail really does great stories - this is bizarre and much more extreme than cutting off your husband's suit sleeves

    A father-of-six is facing jail for demolishing his family home with a sledgehammer after falling out with his brother over their inheritance.

    Furious Tony McGuire battered the £300,000 semi-detached home into pieces while his neighbours looked on.

    McGuire, 49, later posed for pictures in the rubble of the house which is at the centre of an ownership dispute with his brother and sister.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2335687/Father-49-told-faces-prison-sentence-demolishing-family-home-sledgehammer-inheritance-row-brother.html#ixzz2VFrGyZtc

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    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited June 2013

    "Salmond wanted to give children the vote. Now he's complaining about children being involved in political debate."

    So you'd be relaxed about Yes Scotland propaganda being taught in schools by teachers, and would regard that simply as "children being involved in political debate"? Excellent, that's useful to know. When the complaints come in, I'll look forward to you sending a supportive letter from your villa in Lombardia.

    The children are so bored by the SNP garbage they're force fed that they're overwhelmingly pro-UK ;

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2146719/Anger-SNP-rewrite-history-New-school-curriculum-downplays-role-British-Empire.html
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    PBModeratorPBModerator Posts: 661
    NO SPECUALTION ABOUT THE TORY MP'S COURT CASE PLEASE
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    JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "The children are so bored by the SNP garbage they're force fed that they're overwhelming pro-UK"

    Hmmm. That's if you believe the pollster that had Labour well in the lead in the 2007 Holyrood election. Are MRUK even members of the British Polling Council?
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    JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "I'm always reminded of the truism - Tories are caught in sex scandals, Labour ones over money and LDs over the more colourful end of the scale.

    I wonder what the SNP will become known for :^ )"


    National self-determination would be my guess.
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    JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    Chris Ward ‏@christopherward
    Unelected Lord Dannatt says #equalmarriage Bill is "an abuse of the democratic process". Not as much as your seat in that House is, m'Lord.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    Plato said:

    OT The Mail really does great stories - this is bizarre and much more extreme than cutting off your husband's suit sleeves

    A father-of-six is facing jail for demolishing his family home with a sledgehammer after falling out with his brother over their inheritance.

    Furious Tony McGuire battered the £300,000 semi-detached home into pieces while his neighbours looked on.

    McGuire, 49, later posed for pictures in the rubble of the house which is at the centre of an ownership dispute with his brother and sister.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2335687/Father-49-told-faces-prison-sentence-demolishing-family-home-sledgehammer-inheritance-row-brother.html#ixzz2VFrGyZtc

    not for nothing is it the most popular media website in the world....
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    isamisam Posts: 40,927
    Wonder what Rotherham social services would make of this bloke...

    http://news.sky.com/story/1099172/dad-wears-nazi-uniform-for-child-custody-case
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    JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "not for nothing is it the most popular media website in the world...."

    True. Cellulite is not nothing.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    It's so much easier on the continent as far as inheritance is concerned. Put simply, in most European countries you cannot disinherit your heirs. So everything is divided up equally even if you hate your children.
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    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited June 2013

    "The children are so bored by the SNP garbage they're force fed that they're overwhelming pro-UK"

    Hmmm. That's if you believe the pollster that had Labour well in the lead in the 2007 Holyrood election. Are MRUK even members of the British Polling Council?

    " Research conducted by Edinburgh University found 21 per cent of youngsters aged between 14 and 17 back independence. However 60 per cent are opposed and the remaining 19 per cent are yet to make up their minds.
    When the undecided voters are excluded, support for separation increases to 26 per cent and backing for remaining part of the UK stands at 74 per cent.
    In a huge embarrassment to Mr Salmond, this would mean support for independence is lower among the young than adults, about a third of which backs separation. "

    I'm surprised that you choose to denigrate Edinburgh University.
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    JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "I'm surprised that you choose to denigrate Edinburgh University."

    The only denigration I'm doing is of your reading and comprehension skills. If you really can't tell the difference between Market Research UK and Edinburgh University, that's something you'll have to resolve for yourself. But I dare say your Lombardia villa is ideal for such reflection.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Young voters in Scotland will probably vote more heavily in favour of independence than older voters IMO.
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    JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "Young voters in Scotland will probably vote more heavily in favour of independence than older voters IMO."

    I'm inclined to agree, but the truth is that the polling evidence at the moment is inconclusive and contradictory.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    "The children are so bored by the SNP garbage they're force fed that they're overwhelming pro-UK"

    Hmmm. That's if you believe the pollster that had Labour well in the lead in the 2007 Holyrood election. Are MRUK even members of the British Polling Council?

    " Research conducted by Edinburgh University found 21 per cent of youngsters aged between 14 and 17 back independence. However 60 per cent are opposed and the remaining 19 per cent are yet to make up their minds.
    When the undecided voters are excluded, support for separation increases to 26 per cent and backing for remaining part of the UK stands at 74 per cent.
    In a huge embarrassment to Mr Salmond, this would mean support for independence is lower among the young than adults, about a third of which backs separation. "

    I'm surprised that you choose to denigrate Edinburgh University.
    It's just so funny. The great pudding forces a change in the law and finds out that he's shot himself in the foot by enfranchising a more hostile demographic.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    edited June 2013
    O/T

    why is PB so fixated on a Tory leadership crisis? It is the most arcanely geeky of political topics. There is no leadership crisis or challenge or issue whatsoever that has any realistic chance of success or even of transpiring.

    Of course there are moronic swivel-eyed backbench Tory MPs who are disgruntled (of which some I appreciate aren't even millionaire solipsistic dickheads). But so what? In a perverse way I prefer that they show their hand rather than labourite rebels who in their May Day Kremlin Red Square march past disappeared way dare not breathe a word of dissent.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    edited June 2013
    @PB Moderator

    Can we speculate when the writ for the by election might be moved?


    NO
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    JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "It's just so funny. The great pudding forces a change in the law and finds out that he's shot himself in the foot by enfranchising a more hostile demographic."

    What I find amusing is imagining the shock you're going to get when you realise that MRUK polls can't be treated as gospel. Jack McConnell was there before you, mate.

    By the way, well done for escaping moderation in spite of calling me a member of the Ku Klux Klan. I dare say you deserved the indulgence, even if it's not immediately apparent why.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    AndyJS said:

    Young voters in Scotland will probably vote more heavily in favour of independence than older voters IMO.

    given the average age of an SNP activist is 63 - similar to a UKIP ? - Salmond should have raised the voting age. It's for old farts only.

    http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/politics/study-reveals-average-snp-member-is-over-60-and-male-1-2112762
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    AndyJS said:

    It's so much easier on the continent as far as inheritance is concerned. Put simply, in most European countries you cannot disinherit your heirs. So everything is divided up equally even if you hate your children.

    Which is absurd. Why should the state decide who anyone should leave their estate to? Such a system almost certainly means the sale (or increasingly complex joint ownership) of family homes, as well as being a pretty hefty breach on the freedom to act.

    Besides, there are almost certainly ways round it with good lawyers.

    I've no problem with the state providing rules for those who die intestate, and death duties are a legitimate tax, but beyond that, why should the state have a say in who gets what?
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    JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "given the average age of an SNP activist is 63 - similar to a UKIP ? - Salmond should have raised the voting age."

    What is the average age of a Tory activist, Alan? What is the average age of a UUP activist? (Are there any UUP activists left?)
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    AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited June 2013
    It doesn't look as they are
    http://www.britishpollingcouncil.org/officers.html

    MRUK didn't always show pro Labour figures. They had a Labour 4% lead followed by a 4% SNP lead in April 2007. I think their problem was that their figures were too much erratic. Wasn't the Herald accused of not publishing a MRUK poll because it showed a too big SNP lead?
    http://iaindale.blogspot.it/2007/04/scottish-media-establishment-hiding-bad.html

    "The children are so bored by the SNP garbage they're force fed that they're overwhelming pro-UK"

    Hmmm. That's if you believe the pollster that had Labour well in the lead in the 2007 Holyrood election. Are MRUK even members of the British Polling Council?

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    TOPPING said:

    O/T

    why is PB so fixated on a Tory leadership crisis? It is the most arcanely geeky of political topics. There is no leadership crisis or challenge or issue whatsoever that has any realistic chance of success or even of transpiring.

    Of course there are moronic swivel-eyed backbench Tory MPs who are disgruntled (of which some I appreciate aren't even millionaire solipsistic dickheads). But so what? In a perverse way I prefer that they show their hand rather than labourite rebels who in their May Day march past Kremlin disappeared way dare not breathe a word of dissent.

    I agree - how many threads have we endured about this? It's Gove, no its Boris, no its May or Hammond or Liam Fox or Hague or ...

    I'd rather we had a novelty Poly Filler thread about which lobby hack could lead the Tories or Labour whoever most successfully.

    Now that'd be entertaining to see who readers think is actually most plugged into the various leaderships and the members...
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    JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "They had a Labour 4% lead followed by a 4% SNP lead in April 2007."

    Fair enough, but that four-point Labour lead was ludicrous. From memory, virtually every other pollster had the SNP several points ahead at that stage.

    The other joke pollster in that campaign was Progressive Scottish Opinion - their figures were bouncing about all over the place.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Plato said:

    TOPPING said:

    O/T

    why is PB so fixated on a Tory leadership crisis? It is the most arcanely geeky of political topics. There is no leadership crisis or challenge or issue whatsoever that has any realistic chance of success or even of transpiring.

    Of course there are moronic swivel-eyed backbench Tory MPs who are disgruntled (of which some I appreciate aren't even millionaire solipsistic dickheads). But so what? In a perverse way I prefer that they show their hand rather than labourite rebels who in their May Day march past Kremlin disappeared way dare not breathe a word of dissent.

    I agree - how many threads have we endured about this? It's Gove, no its Boris, no its May or Hammond or Liam Fox or Hague or ...

    I'd rather we had a novelty Poly Filler thread about which lobby hack could lead the Tories or Labour whoever most successfully.

    Now that'd be entertaining to see who readers think is actually most plugged into the various leaderships and the members...
    Give Mr Eagles a bit of leeway we've had numerous Ed is crap threads we ought to give the reds a bit of space to set out their wares. Even though it mostly seems to consist of the ideological debate between toff and fop.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    Plato said:

    TOPPING said:

    O/T

    why is PB so fixated on a Tory leadership crisis? It is the most arcanely geeky of political topics. There is no leadership crisis or challenge or issue whatsoever that has any realistic chance of success or even of transpiring.

    Of course there are moronic swivel-eyed backbench Tory MPs who are disgruntled (of which some I appreciate aren't even millionaire solipsistic dickheads). But so what? In a perverse way I prefer that they show their hand rather than labourite rebels who in their May Day march past Kremlin disappeared way dare not breathe a word of dissent.

    I agree - how many threads have we endured about this? It's Gove, no its Boris, no its May or Hammond or Liam Fox or Hague or ...

    I'd rather we had a novelty Poly Filler thread about which lobby hack could lead the Tories or Labour whoever most successfully.

    Now that'd be entertaining to see who readers think is actually most plugged into the various leaderships and the members...
    The way the various right/leftists quote left/rightist commentators reminds me of the aesop fable which, when asking how to choose between the only two horse-owners, a horse to be requisitioned by the army when it was known that each owner would want to make their horse be the slowest and therefor escape requisition, said:

    "have them change horses".
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2013
    I think we need a cat video ::^ ) This is just purrfect - life with a cat when you're trying to watch the telly...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s13dLaTIHSg
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,854
    AveryLP said:


    I am glad you have weighed in on the stats stodge as I wanted to comment on a post you made a couple of days ago which links into your post today.

    The particular line I had in mind was: I suspect the public broadly don't mind about what is called austerity but they do want to see their personal financial situation improve which means rising income outstripping rises in things like fares and fuel.

    The fall in standards of living is one area that the Coalition government, even on a most optimistic estimate of performance, cannot solve by 2015. But what they can do is bring the deficit down by, say, 80% by the end of this parliamentary term. Indeed we will start to see movements in forecast deficit reduction towards this kind of level when the OBR publishes its July EFO.

    At the same time underlying inflationary pressures are likely to remain very low at least in the short term, meaning that hiking up the base rate is not seen as likely before 2016 by most economic forecasters. Exiting QE, including new QE to solve the bank recapitalisation and credit supply problems will be the priority.

    Add to this the probability that the government will be able to sell substantial proportions of its shares in the intervened banking groups within the next two years and there is clear sight of a there being very much stronger fiscal position in 2015 than today.

    So we are likely to be going into an election with the deficit job nearly done, government debt substantially reduced (bank share sales) and the economy growing at a reasonable and sustained if not exciting rate.

    Where next? You have suggested that wage rises will be needed to reverse some of the falls in standards of living and to increase the feelgood factor. I am fairly certain that Osborne, at least, will not be agreeing with you.

    This is why Osborne is undertaking a 2015-16 spending review now, and closing out Ed Balls's election options, causing great anger by Ed as evidenced in his speech yesterday.

    Osborne's election proposal will be continued constraint of government spending and wage inflation, offset by stable asset prices (house prices rising with or just below inflation), continued low borrowing costs and the prospect of funded tax cuts.

    Tax cuts will be offered as a reward for austerity, with public and private sector wages increased only in so far as they are linked to productivity gains. The cuts will be balanced with investments in additional infrastructure development, but increasingly the government will be wanting to draw in private sector finance to help with the heavy lifting here.

    Labour will oppose vigorously but their main arguments that core public services will be endangered will have been answered by the ring-fencing policies to protect the NHS and Education. There will also be key private sector investment commitments which the government can use as demonstrators for future rebalancing.

    The tax cuts outlined, based on forward spending plans and 80% achieved fiscal consolidation, will be attacked as electoral bribes but the reality is that they will seen by economists as the natural next step in the recovery process. It will be time to stimulate demand to generate further growth. Balls might want to call them "bribes" but the markets, IMF and OECD and other economic commentators will back the government up on the logic.

    All this has left Ed Balls like a cornered rat. Hence his rage yesterday: the last tirade against austerity economics pitched at the only time he can call into evidence OBR's "flatlining" forecasts.

    But it also challenges Nick Clegg and the Lib Dems. Will the answer be Osborne lite? Or will they go along with the economic logic but with their cuts being more distributive than those offered by the Tories?

    Over to you. Government stimulated or licensed wage inflation will not be the answer to the standards of living conundrum.

    FPT, so apologies.

    Thank you for the erudite and considered response, Avery. I would point out that at no point did I use the term "wages" but the term "income" and an economic expert of your standing will of course recognise the nuance at work there.

    If my pay goes up 2% and my fares go up 5% I'm worse off - if my pay goes up 2% and my fares go up 1% I'm better off. The erosion of disposable income is less the activity of declining wages in real terms as it is the ongoing increase in other items of expenditure over and above the ambient inflation rate.

    This is consistent with a policy of funding improvements not through capital expenditure or general taxation but through the pockets of those effectively forced to use the product and that's true whether it's transport or water.

    One of the great achievements of the Coalition has been the orchestrated attempt through the raising of personal allowances to not only take more low-paid people out of taxation but also, in conjunction with reform of welfare, to make it increasingly attractive for people to work and more attractive for them to be employed.

    This has been witnessed by the growth in job creation primarily at the lower earning end of the job market. Of course, there will always be those who need additiuonal help from the benefits system and where the need is legitimate, that has to be recognised.

    Where I part company with Osborne is the sense in which Conservative policy is still governed by the perception that reducing the tax burden of the wealthiest is the right thing to do for the whole economy. I'm no fan of trickle-down and don't believe it happens. Targetting tax cuts at the lowest earners is for me the correct approach so we should be aiming at getting the personal allowance threshhold up to £20k by 2020 (a nice ring to it).

    We also need a different approach to public expenditure reduction which still seems to be focussed on service provision rather than internal procedures and policies. There is a growing perception in wiser Councils about the need to be more proactive so some are combining senior roles and back-office functions while others are looking to develop a commercial property portfolio from which they might derive a significant rental income at a good yield (pay £20m for a fully-tenanted office block and watch the rental income flood in).

    If you want me to sketch out Lib Dem economic policy post 2015, I'd be arguing for the onus to be on tax reductions for the lowest paid in tandem with targetted welfare reform (and here Ed Balls has a point about wealthy pensioners and tv licences/winter fuel payments). Continuing to raise the personal allowance above inflation should be the goal while keeping ALL spending under review (and that has to mean no sacred cows including NHS and the Armed Forces).
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    edited June 2013
    The IMF appear to be giving France a good going over, it's hard to see Hollande taking their advice especially on anything to do with loosening the labour market.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/10098006/France-risks-being-left-behind-by-periphery-if-it-does-not-reform.html
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    JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "I think we need a cat video"

    Quite right, Plato. This is a political betting forum after all.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205

    "I think we need a cat video"

    Quite right, Plato. This is a political betting forum after all.

    If only there was a "I laughed out loud" button!

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2013

    "I think we need a cat video"

    Quite right, Plato. This is a political betting forum after all.

    @JamesKelly

    The day you discover ironic humour and the joy that needling your ego brings re predictable responses will be a sad one < this isn't true but I felt it was important to make this explanatory point for your benefit.

    Until then, assume any post about cats is intended to make you look like a charlie if you respond to it. This is an humour warning - I made it several threads ago the last time you attempted to belittle me.

    Ignore me and show us that you can - you say my posts are *pointless* - well in that case, don't respond to them and give us all a break.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,927
    Cyclefree said:

    "I think we need a cat video"

    Quite right, Plato. This is a political betting forum after all.

    If only there was a "I laughed out loud" button!

    Surely that was deliberate James Kelly bait from Plato there?

    If so, she got a bite!

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    Unless Boris's new London busses have more interesting wiring than you might expect this really is a non topic. If there was such an unexpected bus I would expect Hague to take over pro tem and then have a further discussion about the Leadership after the election, if any one wanted it.

    Polly's article was a more interesting topic, and I haven't said that often.
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    JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    Oh dear, Plato seems to still be upset that I called her the "Queen of Pointlessness" the other day. How will I live with myself?
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    This is a good idea for a thread: What should we call Gay Marriage; would it smell as sweet by any other name?

    Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh
    Former Lord Chancellor Lord MacKay opposing #equalmarriage, cites procreation. "This is not the institution of marriage,it needs a new name"
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Exploring below the line of Polly Toynbee's article, I found a link to this blog:

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=24157

    Candidly, I don't think the blog itself is very interesting, but it has a really interesting map of youth unemployment in Europe (it claims to map the EU27, but it also includes Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, Croatia and Turkey). For those that just want to look at the map, it's here:

    http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=5bwso0&s=5

    The cross-border continuities are fascinating.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. K, prior to the debate/argument over gay marriage I was ambivalent, and would've supported equal rights but with the institution called something else (so the same legal standing but a civil partnership, for example). I'm not sure that's possible, or desirable, now though.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,983
    SeanT said:

    FPT: Wow, Polly has got the hornets buzzing. 819 comments and counting.
    .

    It seems to be "upset your readers day" as Dan Hodges has an excellent piece in the Telegraph on racist Tory Traditionalists - the comments so far are pretty mild by usual standards....

    Pah. My piece on homophobia in last week's Telegraph got..... 2045 comments.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100218989/homosexuality-is-natural-fine-but-what-if-homophobia-is-natural-too/

    The key to generating debate is, I reckon, to annoy EVERYONE.

    EDIT: Ah, I see TSE already did my gloating for me. Please ignore the otiose boasting above.
    Surely the point of a coloumn like SeanT's is precisely to stimulate argument/debate. People then buy the paper to see what the "fool's said this time".

    Polly, on the other hand is trying to make people like me feel all warm and happy that we're part of a community!
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    isamisam Posts: 40,927
    edited June 2013
    MikeK said:

    This is a good idea for a thread: What should we call Gay Marriage; would it smell as sweet by any other name?

    Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh
    Former Lord Chancellor Lord MacKay opposing #equalmarriage, cites procreation. "This is not the institution of marriage,it needs a new name"

    Civil partnerships?

    I wonder if we will see any religious, married couples divorcing as a gesture on the back of the gay marriage bill?
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Given that most people call civil partnerships "marriages", it's a mixed-up, muddled-up, shook-up world.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,927
    tim said:

    @isam

    I wonder if we will see any religious, married couples divorcing as a gesture on the back of the gay marriage bill?

    I doubt if even the sad old UKIP voters who get upset easily by the 21st century are that sad.

    Just a thought, not a suggestion.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,927
    edited June 2013
    antifrank said:

    Given that most people call civil partnerships "marriages", it's a mixed-up, muddled-up, shook-up world.

    Troll.

    You do know that song isn't about gay love don't you?

    Not that I would like it less if it were, I like the "Older" album by George Michael which is all about Anselmo, and lots of Morrissey songs that are about men he fancies, but "Lola" is about a bloke who accidentally kisses a transvestite
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Perhaps we'll get some anti-gay troglodyte blow his brains out in Westminster Abbey like this chap:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/21/french-historian-kills-himself-notre-dame-gay-marriage

    I guess the biggest problem will be locating the brains to blow them out.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    It'll be a victory for Eck to be sure

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-22765102

    But one has to ask whether the First Minister and Yang Guang are somehow related?
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    antifrank said:

    Exploring below the line of Polly Toynbee's article, I found a link to this blog:

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=24157

    Candidly, I don't think the blog itself is very interesting, but it has a really interesting map of youth unemployment in Europe (it claims to map the EU27, but it also includes Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, Croatia and Turkey). For those that just want to look at the map, it's here:

    http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=5bwso0&s=5

    The cross-border continuities are fascinating.

    Interesting antifrank. I stumbled upon the same blog a few days ago.

    He was the source for the "econometrician" quote I fired back at Charles when the latter was questioning the accuracy and purpose of fifty year economic forecasts.

    He exhibits very questionable Krugmanite economics however measured. Even worse he suffers by appearing to be Australian.

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    isamisam Posts: 40,927
    antifrank said:

    Perhaps we'll get some anti-gay troglodyte blow his brains out in Westminster Abbey like this chap:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/21/french-historian-kills-himself-notre-dame-gay-marriage

    I guess the biggest problem will be locating the brains to blow them out.

    Imagine if one who was anti gay marriage talked about supporters of gay marriage in these terms?

    Some might call it "hostile"
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    isam said:

    antifrank said:

    Given that most people call civil partnerships "marriages", it's a mixed-up, muddled-up, shook-up world.

    Troll.

    You do know that song isn't about gay love don't you?

    Not that I would like it less if it were, I like the "Older" album by George Michael which is all about Anselmo, and lots of Morrissey songs that are about men he fancies, but "Lola" is about a bloke who accidentally kisses a transvestite
    In what way is that trolling? It's a statement of fact.
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    JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    "But one has to ask whether the First Minister and Yang Guang are somehow related?"

    Yes, they both look astonishingly cute in that picture.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    "Lola" is about a bloke who accidentally kisses a transvestite

    Isn't it about a man who kisses a girl he fancies who turns out to be a transvestite? (a bit like 'the crying game, except when the singer finds out Lola's a man, he still fancies her/him?)/

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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    isam said:

    antifrank said:

    Perhaps we'll get some anti-gay troglodyte blow his brains out in Westminster Abbey like this chap:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/21/french-historian-kills-himself-notre-dame-gay-marriage

    I guess the biggest problem will be locating the brains to blow them out.

    Imagine if one who was anti gay marriage talked about supporters of gay marriage in these terms?

    Some might call it "hostile"
    It's an unnatural act and all right-thinking people will be disgusted by it, especially such a public display. I'm sure that SeanT will pen 1,500 words on how it's found in the animal kingdom in many manifestations, but I can't get over my visceral distaste for it. Suicide, I mean.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking
    UK MPs reject proposal to set a carbon emissions target for energy industry by 2030.

    Oh Dear! The greens will puke and turn grey, while the L/Ds will puke and turn green.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    @jamesKelly

    Er, well, I guess this is a site that caters for all tastes. Whatever turns you on.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,927
    antifrank said:

    isam said:

    antifrank said:

    Given that most people call civil partnerships "marriages", it's a mixed-up, muddled-up, shook-up world.

    Troll.

    You do know that song isn't about gay love don't you?

    Not that I would like it less if it were, I like the "Older" album by George Michael which is all about Anselmo, and lots of Morrissey songs that are about men he fancies, but "Lola" is about a bloke who accidentally kisses a transvestite
    In what way is that trolling? It's a statement of fact.
    A while ago I asked if anyone knew of songs that were explicitly about a persons love for another of the same sex in popular music.

    You said "Lola" by The Kinks.

    This song is about a straight man who unwittingly kisses a transvestite, and I pointed this out to you.

    You then quoted the lyrics to try and back up your mistaken assertion.

    You just did so again when answering an answer about what gay marriage should be called.

    You know all of this, don't know why you would pretend not to.



This discussion has been closed.