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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A year after being touted as Maggie Mark 2 the coming reshu

SystemSystem Posts: 11,007
edited June 2013 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A year after being touted as Maggie Mark 2 the coming reshuffle could be a big moment for Liz Truss

For those Tory MPs elected in 2010 who aspire to high office this is a big moment and a key question will be whether any of them make it to the cabinet.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    First.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Curse of the new thread! FPT:
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. P, be fair. After the Speaker stated Romanians were much nicer than horrid British people his wife had to do *something* to regain the title of Most Obnoxious Bercow.

    In other news Microsoft decides it hasn't insulted enough those without internet connections or who have other issues with the Xbone (previous efforts include the job-endingly bad tweet "Deal with it" and "Backwards compatibility is really backwards"). Today's quotes:

    "Fortunately we have a product for people who aren't able to get some form of connectivity. It's called Xbox 360," he said.

    'Hey, I'm on a nuclear sub.' I don't even know what it means to be on a nuclear sub but I've got to imagine that it's not easy to get an internet connection," he continued. "I can empathize, if I was on a sub I'd be disappointed."

    --

    It's worth pointing out that even huge swathes of America has either no broadband or patchy broadband, and the same applies to Europe. And the console doesn't work if it loses an internet connection for 24 hours [assuming everything's always ok at Microsoft's end]. *sighs*
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    You'll provoke even more visits to betting sites from parliamentary computers, of the sort Plato and the Daily Mail were tutting about at the end of the previous thread.
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    tim said:

    She's proven herself totally incompetent over childcare ratios - could be in with a chance.

    True - she managed to bring together pretty well all stakeholders against the plans. And more significantly neither parents nor childcare providers bought the justification for the plan (which was claimed as increasing quality and reducing costs to parents - err what!?!), when parents and childrcare providers realised this was about cost cutting for government who have a scheme where a certain number of hours care are provided free to parents which a per hour level of government funding provided to the nurseries. Big problem being that is a flat rate which isn't close to the cost of providing the provision in many cases.

    So the effect would have been reduced quality for parents yet no reduction in costs to parents.

    Fortunately parents and providers are smart enough to understand when they are being sold a dud.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,289
    But she used to be a Lib Dem!

    But I do like her, she's from Yorkshire and she saw off the Turnip Taliban.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    @Morris_Dancer

    Crikey - a game console that only works with an active BBand connection for 24hrs? Well that's asking for it. My line regularly goes AWOL every day [it loses its link to the DNS server] so only P2P works.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Eagles, not only from Yorkshire but a Loiner too, it would seem.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,289

    Mr. Eagles, not only from Yorkshire but a Loiner too, it would seem.

    Well I won't hold that against her.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351

    Sorry, but I'd never heard of her before the child-minding farce. But wanting to make us comparable to Scandinavian practice seemed to bring out all the hysterics and showed modern media at its worst. All the vested interests got all the air-time they needed to claim that the world would end so I immediately concluded that it was a good idea.

    Tim will be against as it won't fit his fop meme. For that reason it would be a good political move to promote her, so Cameron probably won't.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    She's South West Norfolk n good.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Miss Plato, you need to check-in online once every 24 hours, or once every hour if you're playing a game on a console which isn't yours. It's insane.

    The Xbone will still sell millions (through Halo fans alone) but hopefully it'll get trounced in the console war.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Eagles, I wouldn't expect a Mancunian like you to approve ;)
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,289
    edited June 2013
    antifrank said:

    She's South West Norfolk n good.

    What do you make of her chances as next Tory Leader ?

    Would you say she has Norfolk n Chance?
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Plato said:

    My line regularly goes AWOL every day [it loses its link to the DNS server]

    Run your own DNS server

    I use this

    http://www.simpledns.com/

    which runs on even the crappiest hardware (15 year old Thinkpad 770) or you could probably use a Raspberry Pi as a caching name server these days

    You will be amazed at just how many DNS lookups occur
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,289

    Mr. Eagles, I wouldn't expect a Mancunian like you to approve ;)

    Don't make me go all Zama on you.

    Besides I become a resident of Yorkshire again a week on Friday.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @MattChorley
    Tories launch web assault on Labour and Lib Dems to put pressure on MPs to 'Let Britain Decide' on Europe http://dailym.ai/11eGeiI

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Eagles, I am pleased that you shall soon escape the dark realm of Mordor.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351

    "All the research"?

    Tim, what is called research nowadays is usually some teenager being told to ask the nest three people what they think. Or a politically-motivated apprentice-wannabe trying to work things out on the back of a fag-packet with a blunt pencil.

    So if the argument is that reducing the need for so many child-minders will cost money, why not use all the unemployed in that capacity?

    And yes, I know I'm in a stroppy mood this morning.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    My creepy stalker tim off the banned list. Oh joy.
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    BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    Scott_P said:

    @MattChorley
    Tories launch web assault on Labour and Lib Dems to put pressure on MPs to 'Let Britain Decide' on Europe http://dailym.ai/11eGeiI

    Not sure Labour or Lib Dems will be bothered too much.
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    Liz Truss came into Govt with one big idea. Which Cameron let Clegg kill. Truss may get a promotion but that will be viewed by many in the party as selling out her principles for a promotion. She also had an affair with a married MP. More of a 1000/1 chance with members.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,289
    Oh dear, oh dear

    Australian opener David Warner has been stood down for a game after being involved in a physical altercation with an England player.

    The player is understood to be England batsman Joe Root and it's believed he was not injured in the altercation.

    Australia is playing New Zealand in Birmingham in Champions Trophy match on Wednesday night. It's believed alcohol was a factor.


    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/warner-stood-down-over-altercation-with-england-player-20130612-2o431.html#ixzz2VzCzqhzL
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924
    Scott_P said:

    @MattChorley
    Tories launch web assault on Labour and Lib Dems to put pressure on MPs to 'Let Britain Decide' on Europe http://dailym.ai/11eGeiI

    I note the following from the piece "particularly in areas where the Tories’ pro-referendum policy could prove deceive in a tight general election in 2015."

    Indeed, as usual, the Tories set out to decieve, especially on Europe.

  • Options
    FPT Plato and Nick Palmer, the dust from those paper strips would be regarded as an environmental hazard these days.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Plato said:

    @Morris_Dancer

    Crikey - a game console that only works with an active BBand connection for 24hrs? Well that's asking for it. My line regularly goes AWOL every day [it loses its link to the DNS server] so only P2P works.

    Try using Google's free, public DNS servers at 8.8.8.8
    https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/

    (although I wonder if there is not actually a fault in your "box" which probably includes a caching DNS server -- you might ask your ISP about a replacement, since it seems unlikely their own DNS servers would go down so often)
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    #France Q1 2013 employment: -21,600 jobs, payroll employment -0.1% q/q, temporary work +2.6% (+13,300 jobs)

    UK figs at 0930.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    All very amusing - talk about FOI backfiring

    "Spending on Mr Balls’ office credit card has been released covering the period when he was Schools secretary from 28 June 2007 to 11 May 2010.

    The lavish spending has echoes of the credit card bill run by the private office of Lord Prescott when he was deputy Prime Minister.

    The details of the spending on the government procurement card were released following a Freedom of Information request from Tom Watson MP, the Labour party’s deputy chairman.

    Mr Watson had asked for the spending for the past two years – covering Michael Gove’s time as education secretary – however the Coalition decided to release credit card spending figures going back to April 2006.

    In all the disclosures showed that Mr Balls’ office spent around £9,000 during his three years in office, with most of the cash going on travel receipts..." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10113562/Ed-Ballss-office-passed-fine-dining-bills-to-taxpayers.html
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    FPT Plato and Nick Palmer, the dust from those paper strips would be regarded as an environmental hazard these days.

    You're probably right - I used to find little dots of paper everywhere as a kid. My dad also made his own circuit boards and we had all sort of chemicals knocking around the kitchen which no doubt would get me put in care these days...!
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,289
    Whinging Aussies part 9,141

    Australia's stand-in captain George Bailey wants England's methods for gaining reverse-swing monitored, hinting one of the home side's bowling trump cards for the Ashes may be pushing the rules boundaries.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jun/12/george-bailey-england-australia-reverse-swing
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    OT TV question. I'm thinking of getting X-Files and Ally McBeal - the two series that were very popular and I never watched bar the odd clip.

    I've heard both went downhill in later series - but were very strong otherwise. Any thoughts?
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903

    Whinging Aussies part 9,141

    Australia's stand-in captain George Bailey wants England's methods for gaining reverse-swing monitored, hinting one of the home side's bowling trump cards for the Ashes may be pushing the rules boundaries.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jun/12/george-bailey-england-australia-reverse-swing

    They want to find Jimmy A's aussie grandparents ?
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Plato said:

    All very amusing - talk about FOI backfiring

    In all the disclosures showed that Mr Balls’ office spent around £9,000 during his three years in office, with most of the cash going on travel receipts..." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10113562/Ed-Ballss-office-passed-fine-dining-bills-to-taxpayers.html

    Not much of a scandal, if most of the money went on travel, as the report says, and the rest on feeding civil servants, as it implies.

    Is someone attempting to bury bad news with this drivel?
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Mr Fink has some thoughts on Ed Squared speeches

    "The list of cuts Mr Balls proffered up were almost hilariously inadequate. In 2015, when Labour hopes to take office, it would inherit a tax base of 38 per cent of national income and a spending bill representing 43 per cent. This is a vast gap. You could take out all defence spending and all of the police and still not be half way there. Or you try closing all schools and still fall short. Britain wants a US level of taxation with European levels of spending and this is not sustainable.

    Labour would also inherit the responsibility for the serious review of future public spending that the coalition has made impossible, the Liberal Democrats being unwilling to agree plans beyond the first year of the next Parliament.

    If, therefore, the Labour leadership is serious in any way about agreeing to George Osborne’s spending path it has committed itself to a fundamental reshaping of the State. That is what the figures mean. It is what they will require. Abandoning the argument against the spending plans means abandoning much of the Left’s argument against the Centre Right’s view of the size and shape of government..." http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/columnists/danielfinkelstein/article3788806.ece
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351

    tim,

    My son lives in Copenhagen where the child care arrangements would supposedly make our hysterical media-luvvies (and you) cringe.

    I didn't notice too many ragged urchins roaming the streets.

    Lets be totally honest now, Labour sometimes have good ideas, the Tories sometimes do, and the LDs sometimes do, and often the opposition is based totally on self-interest or politics. I suspect this is the case here.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Plato said:

    All very amusing - talk about FOI backfiring

    In all the disclosures showed that Mr Balls’ office spent around £9,000 during his three years in office, with most of the cash going on travel receipts..." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10113562/Ed-Ballss-office-passed-fine-dining-bills-to-taxpayers.html

    Not much of a scandal, if most of the money went on travel, as the report says, and the rest on feeding civil servants, as it implies.

    Is someone attempting to bury bad news with this drivel?
    I think the story is the ineptness of Watson - trying to pretend 2010 was "year zero"

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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    Which Labour rent controls would they be, do tell.

    .

    These ones

    "Earlier this week, the London Assembly’s housing and regeneration committee, a Labour and left-wing dominated sub-group, called on Boris Johnson to adopt a pilot scheme for “rent stabilisation” – in other words, rent controls.

    The Tory members of the committee rightly put out a dissenting report, cogently arguing that such a policy would chase away the investment in extra rental properties – especially by large institutions seeking to professionalise the market – that is so desperately required to bring rents down and improve security of tenure."

  • Options
    BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    Plato said:

    All very amusing - talk about FOI backfiring

    "Spending on Mr Balls’ office credit card has been released covering the period when he was Schools secretary from 28 June 2007 to 11 May 2010.

    The lavish spending has echoes of the credit card bill run by the private office of Lord Prescott when he was deputy Prime Minister.

    The details of the spending on the government procurement card were released following a Freedom of Information request from Tom Watson MP, the Labour party’s deputy chairman.

    Mr Watson had asked for the spending for the past two years – covering Michael Gove’s time as education secretary – however the Coalition decided to release credit card spending figures going back to April 2006.

    In all the disclosures showed that Mr Balls’ office spent around £9,000 during his three years in office, with most of the cash going on travel receipts..." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10113562/Ed-Ballss-office-passed-fine-dining-bills-to-taxpayers.html

    Jesus Plato are you for real? We run up that sort of spending in a few months never mind three years at our place. I would like to see the expenses of the journalist that wrote this turd.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    A London Assembly sub group?
    Top work, detective

    London Labour don't count ? Someone tell Eddie Izzard he's wasting his time..
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    tim,

    I usually find when I read the original research papers that the press people quoting them didn't understand the conclusions and give their own warped interpretation or extrapolate them on to something inappropriate.

    I read the original Wakefield paper at the time and guess what happened?

    Although the Lancet got a well-deserved kick up the wotsit.

    As for social "sciences" ... it's MMR with knobs on.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    More women from more ordinary backgrounds is good in principle but brains are good too, even if encased in so called fops. I really don't know about Liz Truss one way or another to see if she qualifies.


    I really think Cameron wants to do this once more so this reshuffle should be his election line up subject to a stray Routemaster/ sting. That should focus his mind on the priorities.
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    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited June 2013

    Curse of the new thread! FPT:
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. P, be fair. After the Speaker stated Romanians were much nicer than horrid British people his wife had to do *something* to regain the title of Most Obnoxious Bercow.

    In other news Microsoft decides it hasn't insulted enough those without internet connections or who have other issues with the Xbone (previous efforts include the job-endingly bad tweet "Deal with it" and "Backwards compatibility is really backwards"). Today's quotes:

    "Fortunately we have a product for people who aren't able to get some form of connectivity. It's called Xbox 360," he said.

    'Hey, I'm on a nuclear sub.' I don't even know what it means to be on a nuclear sub but I've got to imagine that it's not easy to get an internet connection," he continued. "I can empathize, if I was on a sub I'd be disappointed."

    --

    It's worth pointing out that even huge swathes of America has either no broadband or patchy broadband, and the same applies to Europe. And the console doesn't work if it loses an internet connection for 24 hours [assuming everything's always ok at Microsoft's end]. *sighs*

    Theoretically there may have been an even less propitious time for Don Mattrick to run face first into a wall with yet another P.R. blunder, but those in the industry are struggling to think of it.

    Redmond now has a scant few months to start turning their Microsoft supertanker away from the rocks and some of those near the top may have far less time than that.

    Either way, Microsoft's dreams of becoming an Apple like gatekeeper for digital content delivery spanning software, games, TV, movies and other media, look to have been completely shattered. Rightly so. They have proven themselves to be ill-suited and comically unprepared to take on such a role.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2013
    Tory Treasury @ToryTreasury
    In 2010 Lab said private sector couldn't make up 4 public sector job losses. Over last 3 years 3 new private jobs for every public job lost

    Employment up 24,000 to reach a new record high. Over the last 3 years: 1.37m more private sector jobs, 453k fewer public sector jobs

    Job vacancies up 19,000 to highest level since 2008

    norman smith @BBCNormanS
    Private sector employment up by 40,000 say ONS

    UK unemployment fell by 5,000 between February and April to 2.51 million - PA

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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    A London Assembly sub group?
    Top work, detective

    London Labour don't count ? Someone tell Eddie Izzard he's wasting his time..
    It's chaired by a Green Assembly member.
    .
    The Greens say jump and Labour say "how high" ?


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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2013
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    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    A London Assembly sub group?
    Top work, detective

    London Labour don't count ? Someone tell Eddie Izzard he's wasting his time..
    It's chaired by a Green Assembly member.
    .
    The Greens say jump and Labour say "how high" ?


    Is that not Green singular in the case of that particular committee? Clearly nothing at all to do with Labour then!

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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Plato said:

    Tory Treasury @ToryTreasury
    In 2010 Lab said private sector couldn't make up 4 public sector job losses. Over last 3 years 3 new private jobs for every public job lost

    Employment up 24,000 to reach a new record high. Over the last 3 years: 1.37m more private sector jobs, 453k fewer public sector jobs

    Job vacancies up 19,000 to highest level since 2008

    norman smith @BBCNormanS
    Private sector employment up by 40,000 say ONS

    UK unemployment fell by 5,000 between February and April to 2.51 million - PA

    Then the Conservatives are heading for an overwhelming victory at the next general election.

    Unless the figures are misleading, of course. Which way will you be betting?
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Plato said:

    Tory Treasury @ToryTreasury
    In 2010 Lab said private sector couldn't make up 4 public sector job losses. Over last 3 years 3 new private jobs for every public job lost

    Employment up 24,000 to reach a new record high. Over the last 3 years: 1.37m more private sector jobs, 453k fewer public sector jobs

    Job vacancies up 19,000 to highest level since 2008

    norman smith @BBCNormanS
    Private sector employment up by 40,000 say ONS

    UK unemployment fell by 5,000 between February and April to 2.51 million - PA

    Then the Conservatives are heading for an overwhelming victory at the next general election.

    Unless the figures are misleading, of course. Which way will you be betting?
    Oh dear - PB Labour disputing the figures now ? Desperate stuff....

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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Dry your eyes tim - look at the wonderful jobs figures and rejoice.

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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    TGOHF said:


    Oh dear - PB Labour disputing the figures now ? Desperate stuff....

    I didnt check - did they allow for the recategorisation of HE jobs? Because if they didnt the claim will indeed be false.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    Slight improvement in wage growth in the latest figures but the trend is still extraordinary: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/lms/labour-market-statistics/june-2013/sty-average-weekly-earnings.html

    That graph is really remarkable. Hard to imagine anything like that in the last 50 years.

    There must be a limit to the extent to which even the heroic British consumer can come riding to the rescue on these figures. Plan A is still exports and import substitution.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    Dry your eyes tim - look at the wonderful jobs figures and rejoice.

    Sun Politics ‏@Sun_Politics 8m
    Squeeze on wages continues - pay rose by only 1.3% compared to Feb-Apr 2012

    Ramp up the rents and house prices at a much faster rate, keep on injecting the taxpayer subsidy into the vein Harry.
    Epic Flail and Fail - Labour supports the 1% pay rise for public sector workers.


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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Hugh Pym @BBCHughPym
    Public sector employment in the first three months of this year fell by 22,000. But private sector jobs up 46,000 over same period.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924
    How many of these new "private sector" jobs are former public sectors ones, now outsourced?

    And, agree, £3k pa for travel with a few meals doesn't sound unreasonable in the circumstances.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    How many of these new "private sector" jobs are former public sectors ones, now outsourced?

    .

    Hopefully lots - as the state wont be burnded for the next 60 years with their final salary pensions.

    Outsource them all - every single one.



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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    £2 on Ms Truss.

    Rents are the new Tory women for Tim methinks.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    Central Govt employment rose, local govt employment fell.

    What about number of short people employed - or left handers ?

    There must be some niche figure or subset you can cling too ? Bearded men over 45 ?

    People called Colin from Essex ?



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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Labour's share of income is falling everywhere, from Germany to Mexico to China:

    http://conversableeconomist.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/labors-falling-share-everywhere.html
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    TGOHF said:


    Hopefully lots - as the state wont be burnded for the next 60 years with their final salary pensions.

    Outsource them all - every single one.

    Sadly for you the Tory led Government is changing the rules to allow all outsourced public sector workers to retain their defined benefit public sector pensions after leaving the public sector.

    Tories - not as bad as they're made out to be by some.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited June 2013
    tim said:

    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:


    Hopefully lots - as the state wont be burnded for the next 60 years with their final salary pensions.

    Outsource them all - every single one.

    Sadly for you the Tory led Government is changing the rules to allow all outsourced public sector workers to retain their defined benefit public sector pensions after leaving the public sector.

    Tories - not as bad as they're made out to be by some.
    Poor TGOHF, just not up to speed.
    I see these job figures have hit you hard tim - cheer up - your hero rEd will be up at PMQs later to avoid talking about the unemployment figures too.



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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,964
    edited June 2013
    Scottish unemployment down 6k, employment up by 47k (Scottish unemployment rate is 7.1%, average of 7.8% for the whole of the UK), so 'UK' improvements almost entirely down to Scotland. I wonder if the Scottish economy is finally decoupling from the UK rather than performing its usual lag?
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    BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    There's some pretty bad news in the employment numbers today.

    Monthly unemployment figure for April is horrendous after a very good March.

    Tories all over twitter celebrating zillions of McJobs and showing off their usual statistical illiteracy on the overall employment rate (went down and still way down on levels seen under Labour).
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The resemblance between Liz Truss and Martha Kearney is uncanny, although Liz Truss is obviously a lot younger...
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    David Smith on private sector pay (from last hour)

    http://www.economicsuk.com/blog/

    "Something interesting may be happening on pay. The February-April picture remained subdued, up 1.3% on a year earlier for total pay, 0.9% for regular pay. But for April alone total pay was up 3.3% on a year earlier, or 4.2% in the private sector."

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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822
    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    Central Govt employment rose, local govt employment fell.

    Indeed, and within the 400,000 public sector job "losses" widely misquoted by many from the ONS survey is the fact that nearly half these losses aren't losses at all but a re-classification of people working in higher and further education from the public to the private sector making it appear that the private sector is creating more jobs and the public sector losing more jobs than is the case.
    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:


    Hopefully lots - as the state wont be burnded for the next 60 years with their final salary pensions.

    Outsource them all - every single one.

    Sadly for you the Tory led Government is changing the rules to allow all outsourced public sector workers to retain their defined benefit public sector pensions after leaving the public sector.

    Tories - not as bad as they're made out to be by some.
    From working with local authorities, many will tell you outsourcing is no panacea at all and indeed much of what was outsourced has now been insourced by Councils on grounds of cost and efficiency. The workers brought back into the public sector are delighted at the propsect of getting into the LGPS having seen their previous pensions closed or slashed inb value.

    The situation on employment hides many truths - the man who cooks my breakfast can't make his business pay so he has another job in the evenings to survive. Two jobs but one person doing them. Counting the number of jobs, counting the number of people working, counting the number of people not working - each statistic can be used to argue a position or support a political viewpoint, none of them in isolation convey the truth.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    When do we get the earliest Q2 GDP estimate?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    BenM said:

    There's some pretty bad news in the employment numbers today.

    Monthly unemployment figure for April is horrendous after a very good March.

    Tories all over twitter celebrating zillions of McJobs and showing off their usual statistical illiteracy on the overall employment rate (went down and still way down on levels seen under Labour).

    ONS headline is that employment is up 24K on the quarter and 432K in the year.

    The latter figure does suggest that the latest quarter is somewhat below trend and a bit disappointing but given what is happening in the EZ having a positive figure is a remarkable achievement.

    Hopefully as growth and confidence pick up the figures will improve at a more rapid rate again. The continued increase in the number of vacancies is a good early indicator of this.

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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    David Smith on private sector pay (from last hour)

    http://www.economicsuk.com/blog/

    "Something interesting may be happening on pay. The February-April picture remained subdued, up 1.3% on a year earlier for total pay, 0.9% for regular pay. But for April alone total pay was up 3.3% on a year earlier, or 4.2% in the private sector."


    Top rate pay rises delayed until the 45p rate came in.
    Another bonus for George's mates.
    Should be a welcome boost for borrowing figures then - is there no good news that cannot make you whine ?


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    BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    To back up what Tim is saying:

    LEAP ‏@LEAPeconomics
    Real evidence of bonus pay being deferred until 45% rate kicked-in, from #ONS pay stats today #taxavoidance
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    SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    TGOHF said:
    I don't always agree with Alistair Heath but he is absolutely right. Rent controls have proved disastrous everywhere they've been tried. The fundamental problem is rising demand with limited supply. The Tories are willing to tackle half the rising demand issue with non-EU immigration, but won't do anything on EU immigration and give only lip service to supply. Labour, on the other hand, refuse to talk about demand, talk a good game on supply, but likely won't do anything more about it than they did in the 13 years they were in power.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Nothing like some positive economic news to get the pb lefties frothing, calling foul and claiming good news is bad.

    They are like David Warner in a wine bar.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    stodge said:

    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    Central Govt employment rose, local govt employment fell.

    Indeed, and within the 400,000 public sector job "losses" widely misquoted by many from the ONS survey is the fact that nearly half these losses aren't losses at all but a re-classification of people working in higher and further education from the public to the private sector making it appear that the private sector is creating more jobs and the public sector losing more jobs than is the case.
    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:


    Hopefully lots - as the state wont be burnded for the next 60 years with their final salary pensions.

    Outsource them all - every single one.

    Sadly for you the Tory led Government is changing the rules to allow all outsourced public sector workers to retain their defined benefit public sector pensions after leaving the public sector.

    Tories - not as bad as they're made out to be by some.

    The situation on employment hides many truths - the man who cooks my breakfast can't make his business pay so he has another job in the evenings to survive. Two jobs but one person doing them.

    Individuals with second jobs has been on a downward trend since 2011 and had a substantial 4.5% fall in the last quarter.
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    BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    TGOHF said:

    Nothing like some positive economic news to get the pb lefties frothing, calling foul and claiming good news is bad.

    They are like David Warner in a wine bar.

    Couldn't answer Tim's question then?

    No surprise there.
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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    "Tories all over twitter celebrating zillions of McJobs and showing off their usual statistical illiteracy on the overall employment rate (went down and still way down on levels seen under Labour)."

    It is not "way down" on levels seen by Labour. It is current 69.6%.

    When Labour came to power, it was at 67.5, and took until 2002 to hit 69.6% (save for one month in 2000), spent 2002-2006 hovering around 70%, dipped under 69.6% in 2007, rose to a peak of 70.5% in 2008, then fell to 69% in time for the election.

    Overall, the current figure is higher than typical for 1997-2001, typical for 2001-2005, lower than 2005-8 (by about 0.6-8%) and mid range for 2008-2010.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    BenM said:

    TGOHF said:

    Nothing like some positive economic news to get the pb lefties frothing, calling foul and claiming good news is bad.

    They are like David Warner in a wine bar.

    Couldn't answer Tim's question then?

    No surprise there.

    Wait - you think as yet uncollected tax on large bonuses will be bad news ? Oh dear.

    Borrowing dropping despite delayed bonuses - more revenue to come.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Why on earth wouldn't you delay your bonus payments until they're more tax efficient? It's hardly as though the Treasury isn't getting a decent wodge at 45%, and given this is the state-sanctioned top tax rate for the future, it's entirely in keeping with the state's expectations for tax recovery from the very highest earners. Employers would need to be clinically insane not to consider this.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2013
    @Grandiose

    I wonder why anyone would use the term McJobs. Having gainful employment is surely better than no job. I'm sure many Labour voters are quite happy to be employed in the service industries, in clean/safe conditions with prospects/training and a uniform. It's no different to working in a biscuit factory like Carol in the Liverbirds - but I guess that doesn't count...
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:



    BenM said:

    TGOHF said:

    Nothing like some positive economic news to get the pb lefties frothing, calling foul and claiming good news is bad.

    They are like David Warner in a wine bar.

    Couldn't answer Tim's question then?

    No surprise there.

    Wait - you think as yet uncollected tax on large bonuses will be bad news ? Oh dear.

    Borrowing dropping despite delayed bonuses - more revenue to come.

    Collecting a lot less tax is good?


    "How does delaying public sector bonuses so they'll be taxed at 45p rather than 50p raise more money?"

    Try and answer
    Where did I say "less" ?

    There is no evidence it will be less by dropping the rate. I'm sure a Laffer denier like you will never agree - however if 50% raises more tax why did Labour wait 13 years to introduce it ? And will Labour revert to 50% if they win in 2015 ?

    Some serious revenue has been delayed - and yet to be counted in the figures - whether it is more or less than some fictional number which can never be proved is only important to those with a serious chip on their shoulder.



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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    tim said:


    How does delaying public sector bonuses so they'll be taxed at 45p rather than 50p raise more money?

    There's no real evidence that happened, tim. The number of public sector workers affected by the reduction in the additional rate is minimal. Bonuses in the public sector are generally tiny anyway. I find it very difficult to believe that behaviour was driven by tax avoidance. There are loads of other potential explanations for the data that make more sense.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    tim said:

    @TGOHF


    David Smith ‏@dsmitheconomics 21s
    @AllisterHeath Everybody seems to have been at it. Construction bonuses in April up 59% on year earlier, public sector (ex finance) up 32%.


    I'm not sure how many builders on £150k plus there are although looking at the figures, both regular pay and bonuses in the construction industry seems to be up substantially from previous months for both March (50% rate) and April (45% rate) so not much evidence it is a tax related spike but perhaps indicative of renewed growth in construction.

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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    TGOHF said:

    whether it is more or less than some fictional number which can never be proved is only important to those with a serious chip on their shoulder

    I would have thought it was of interest to anyone concerned about the size of the fiscal deficit. There is no evidence but that independent judge of these matters, the OBR, thinks it will cost hundreds of millions. Even after making heroic assumptions about the behavioural effect.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    TGOHF said:


    Oh dear - PB Labour disputing the figures now ? Desperate stuff....

    I'm not pb Labour and I'm not disputing the figures because I do not have time -- rather, I'm pointing out their obvious corollary (and suggesting that in the absence of a press release from shadsy, perhaps the figures are not what they seem).

    It is what I call the Bottomley fallacy, after the former SoS for Health who trumpeted spending figures over ward closures (and lost the election) -- the concentration by politicians on skewed statistics which do not reflect real world conditions.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    antifrank said:

    Why on earth wouldn't you delay your bonus payments until they're more tax efficient?


    And of course there was a rise in the personal allowance for basic rate tax payers so perhaps alot of those delaying bonuses were basic rate payers.
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    "Total UK Public Sector Employment

    Total UK PSE reached its highest level of 6.365 million in Q3 2009. When the effects of the reclassification of the English further education colleges and sixth form college corporations have been removed, the total UK PSE headcount fell by 463,000 between Q3 2009 and Q1 2013."

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/pse/public-sector-employment/q1-2013/stb-pse-2013q1.html#tab-Public-Sector-Employment-by-Sector-Classification

    From the data tables the bonuses aren't a simple tax-avoidance by deferral, more a tax-avoidance due to a resumption of payouts that weren't made previously. For example here are the bonus payments from Feb 12 to April 13 for the hated financiers:

    65
    74
    87 - April 12
    69
    71
    80
    81
    70
    68
    66
    70
    69
    66
    69
    143 - April 13

    As you can see rather than March falling, it is simply April increasing much more than it did last year.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:

    whether it is more or less than some fictional number which can never be proved is only important to those with a serious chip on their shoulder

    I would have thought it was of interest to anyone concerned about the size of the fiscal deficit. There is no evidence but that independent judge of these matters, the OBR, thinks it will cost hundreds of millions. Even after making heroic assumptions about the behavioural effect.
    Yes there can be some rough estimate of whether more or less money was collected in a certain period of time due to this measure - but it will be an estimate not a fact.


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    redcliffe62redcliffe62 Posts: 342
    Plato said:

    OT TV question. I'm thinking of getting X-Files and Ally McBeal - the two series that were very popular and I never watched bar the odd clip.

    I've heard both went downhill in later series - but were very strong otherwise. Any thoughts?

    Avoid both sycophantic programmes, better to watch paint drying.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    TGOHF said:


    Yes there can be some rough estimate of whether more or less money was collected in a certain period of time due to this measure - but it will be an estimate not a fact.

    Indeed but the issue is an important one of genuine interest and not just something for people to get chippy about.
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    Jonathon

    I think Heath/Smith are right, but in the wrong way. All sectors of the economy (bar nationalised banks) saw a spike in bonuses in April. But this doesn't seem to be a deferral from March, rather a longer deferral.

    So maybe your theoretical construction boss hasn't had a bonus for 2-3 years and is now getting a biggie. But yes if they have that money then things can't be as bad as made out.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:


    Yes there can be some rough estimate of whether more or less money was collected in a certain period of time due to this measure - but it will be an estimate not a fact.

    Indeed but the issue is an important one of genuine interest and not just something for people to get chippy about.
    From ASOD's figures it looks like the growing economy is a bigger factor in bonuses - how much of that is down to the 45% rate ? Another imponderable.

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    The PB commentariat sems to be having a bit of a blarney about employment numbers this morning. Bottom line on this and on the economy overall is: Things are getting better - but only slowly. We're still in deep doodoo and working out the hangover of 13 years of Gordon is going to require alot more pain in the years ahead. But...the direction of travel is good.

    Relative to our EU chums the picture is even better though - as they are pretty much all going backwards now. I also note that the UK to Rest of EU economic ties are weaknening. We trade less and less with them and more and more with the rest of the world.

    Extrapolate these trends. The UK is becoming more powerful and more independent of the EZ. I wonder where that might take us in a decade or so?
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    Also regular pay (ie not bonuses) increased relatively sharply (note relative, still weak) in April (yoy) when compared with Feb/Mar. This was the case in virtually all sectors of the economy, including to a smaller degree, the public sector.

    Suggests bosses were squeezing pay as much as possible either side of xmas and unleashed the taps (relatively) in April. So is that pattern in REGULAR pay because of the 50p rate? Not remotely likely. Or the personal allowance? Possible, but why would bosses care what staff personal allowances are? Or something broader? Surely the squeeze on pay, whether regular or through a bonus, can only go on so long.

    Also the April numbers will be very positive for Q2 GDP on the Income account.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    So even a public sector employer, such as a local government, might say to the employee that you can have £50K bonus now or £47K in May which will be worth more to you. What do you say, deal or no deal?
    Is this too hard to follow?

    The question of whether there should be such a bonus culture in the public sector is of course another matter. At least it is not pensionable.


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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Rod Liddle does have a talent for this stuff

    “It’s outrageous — my new book has been blackballed by the Hay-on-Wye literary festival.” ...The credit for this wonderful little cri de coeur comes from the author David Goodhart, hitherto a fixture among the self-congratulatory liberal middlebrow elite at Hay, until he wrote his new book about how immigration to this country had been, on the whole, not a terribly good thing, frankly. Now he has found the gates to this gilded world bolted shut and he has taken his complaints to the pages of our national newspapers, with great anguish...

    So: OK, fair enough. This is not necessarily the greatest crisis our country has faced, taken in isolation. But it is interesting and indicative of the absolutist mindset of those who have been appointed, or have appointed themselves, the guardians of our culture. In short, it is the absolutism of the modern, well-dressed, metropolitan liberal, and the only surprising thing is that Goodhart did not see it coming...

    They will brook no argument, these people. There is no argument to be had: immigration is a good thing and there’s an end to it. And those who argue otherwise become a sort of non-person. It is the same mindset that afflicted all our main political parties in the last decade and from which they are only now recanting, as they watch UKIP closing in..." http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/comment/columns/rodliddle/article1267745.ece
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,905
    Just to prove that BenM's wonderful, uncriticisable NHS that has never killed anyone is helping some people:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10114502/NHS-trusts-spend-2m-to-stop-staff-speaking-out.html

    The problem is that they are helping the management, not helping the patients ...

    Can anyone give a good reason why such gagging orders are a) just, b) good for patients and c) good for taxpayers?
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Also regular pay (ie not bonuses) increased relatively sharply (note relative, still weak) in April (yoy) when compared with Feb/Mar. This was the case in virtually all sectors of the economy, including to a smaller degree, the public sector.

    Suggests bosses were squeezing pay as much as possible either side of xmas and unleashed the taps (relatively) in April. So is that pattern in REGULAR pay because of the 50p rate? Not remotely likely. Or the personal allowance? Possible, but why would bosses care what staff personal allowances are? Or something broader? Surely the squeeze on pay, whether regular or through a bonus, can only go on so long.

    Also the April numbers will be very positive for Q2 GDP on the Income account.

    Thanks for the analysis ASOD.

    Falling unemployment and rising pay and bonuses - incredible that people try and spin as bad news.


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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Re prize competition on the June ICM shares

    I think that Cyclefree was the winner. If that's not correct then let me know ASAP. Mail me at Mike at politicalbetting dot com
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    DavidL said:


    The question of whether there should be such a bonus culture in the public sector is of course another matter.

    But it's just something you made up rather than related to reality in any way.
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    I thought the Labour line until 9.30am this morning was that the 50p tax rate didn't affect behaviour at all?
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    I was hoping someone would bite without researching first. bonus pay for the hated financiers from Jan 11 to March 12

    76
    72
    78
    78 - April 11
    79
    85
    96
    76
    74
    72
    72
    65
    60
    62
    67

    To you view the whole dataset, showing just how anomalous April 13 is:

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/datasets-and-tables/data-selector.html?cdid=K5CV&dataset=lms&table-id=15.1

    Why bonuses would be paid to such a large (and unprecedented) degree at 45%, but not in 2001-08 when the rate was 40%, I don't know. But I like interesting puzzles such as that which defy easy explanations.
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    RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    @tim - You'd better complain to the BBC:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22868901
This discussion has been closed.