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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A joyless recovery doesn’t necessarily mean a voteless reco

SystemSystem Posts: 11,006
edited June 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A joyless recovery doesn’t necessarily mean a voteless recovery

Since speculation of a triple-dip recession was put onto the backburner with the modest growth recorded in the first quarter of the year, the preponderance of the economic stats have pointed to the embedding of a steady, if unspectacular, recovery.  The employment figures this last week were as good an example as any:

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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    http://labourlist.org/2013/06/labour-must-not-let-ukip-win-working-class-votes/

    "To be absolutely clear: this isn’t an issue of image or PR. Rather, it’s essential to Labour’s re-invigoration that talented and passionate people from all walks of life can rise to the top of the party. Consider the architect of our treasured NHS, Nye Bevan. Bevan, from the South Wales valleys, left school at thirteen with no qualifications to work in a colliery. Today the only way he would be allowed into the House of Commons would be to empty the bins and scrub the floors."

    People who have no idea about grammar and have to guess where the apostrophes go aren't going to put themselves forward cos they know they'll make a tw*t of themselves.

    The schools people like Bevan went to taught all that basic stuff.
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    JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    (OT) I came across this news report from 1984, and I was struck by how much information is unstated, and is assumed to be known by the viewer:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5ffAx8SVJQ

    "Mrs Gandhi (who?) is assassinated. Her son (who?) takes over (takes over as what?). Good evening. Indira Gandhi, ruler of the world's largest democracy (where?), died today, shot down by two of her own bodyguards. They were Sikhs, taking revenge for the invasion of their temple in June, and tonight mobs of Hindus have been attacking Sikhs in cities throughout the sub-continent (what sub-continent?). Within hours of the assassination, the country (what country?) had a new prime minister, Mrs Gandhi's son Rajiv. This was how India (at last, we are told.) first heard the news of the murder...:"
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    JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    Plato (OT) (FPT) "Right - that's it, Inception has been zapped with 45 mins to go, I started skipping through the scenes that looked like From Russia With Love and the ones with his kids and it struck me that I didn't give a toss about any of the characters or the plot or how it ended.

    Each to his (or her) own, I suppose. But I really liked "Inception". I was surprised at how I was able to follow it closely at all levels without being confused, and without losing track of which was which. It has an amazing ending, which made the whole audience in the cinema do a big "oh!" at the last moment before the credits. But if you didn't like it, no need to bother watching it again just for that bit.
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    JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    In Tariq Ali's book "The Nehrus and The Gandhis: An Indian Dynasty" he ponders the ebb and flow of the Indian nationalist and non-cooperation movement at one particular point in the 1920s.

    "After [Nehru's] release from prison, he plied [his father] Motilal with question after question and then, exhausted, sat back to ponder the grim realities. He was fully convinced that the movement was finished. He now understood the iron law that determines the rise and fall of large mass movements. On the upswing, people are prepared to accomplish miracles. They learn things very rapidly, assimilate new ideas quickly and can even politically overtake a leadership which appears to them cautious and conservative. Once the movement is past its peak without achieving success, then a lot depends on the political organisation. If, like Congress, it is incapable of holding things together, then people get demoralised, feel leaderless, and slip back into apathy."

    Perhaps a warning for UKIP or Beppe Grillo or whoever.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,890
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Morning!

    Quick technical question - apart from files being twice the size, what does Blue Ray formatting do that HD doesn't? I haven't seen many BR movies, but the quality does seem a bit richer/better depth when it comes to CGI.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,319
    Lucid piece by David as always, but whistling in the dark IMO. The Tory deifict is made up of three elements, none of which are readily suscpetible to change because of a recovery, because they aren't primarily driven by the economy (and often not inclined to think any of the parties much good at it):

    1) The 29% who preferred Gordon to Dave

    2) The 7% or so who were on the left of the LibDems (and prefer Balls to Osborne by a large margin)

    3) The fed-up Kippers

    It's possible to imagine 3) collapsing, which would disproportionately help the Tories. The first two groups are largely impervious to Tory persuasion. So the Tories need to GAIN votes over last time in significant numbers. Where are they going to come from?
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    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited June 2013

    Lucid piece by David as always, but whistling in the dark IMO. The Tory deifict is made up of three elements, none of which are readily suscpetible to change because of a recovery, because they aren't primarily driven by the economy (and often not inclined to think any of the parties much good at it):

    1) The 29% who preferred Gordon to Dave

    2) The 7% or so who were on the left of the LibDems (and prefer Balls to Osborne by a large margin)

    3) The fed-up Kippers

    It's possible to imagine 3) collapsing, which would disproportionately help the Tories. The first two groups are largely impervious to Tory persuasion. So the Tories need to GAIN votes over last time in significant numbers. Where are they going to come from?

    With reference to point 1 , it's presumptious to assume that EdM is more appealing to voters than Gordon Brown.

    I doubt that an upper middle class southerner like Ed will perform as well as Brown did in Scotland and Northern England.

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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    edited June 2013
    Plato said:

    Morning!

    Quick technical question - apart from files being twice the size, what does Blue Ray formatting do that HD doesn't? I haven't seen many BR movies, but the quality does seem a bit richer/better depth when it comes to CGI.

    [edit] ah I see you are talking about comparison between BluRay and HD.. sorry ;)
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Lucid piece by David as always, but whistling in the dark IMO. The Tory deifict is made up of three elements, none of which are readily suscpetible to change because of a recovery, because they aren't primarily driven by the economy (and often not inclined to think any of the parties much good at it):

    1) The 29% who preferred Gordon to Dave

    2) The 7% or so who were on the left of the LibDems (and prefer Balls to Osborne by a large margin)

    3) The fed-up Kippers

    It's possible to imagine 3) collapsing, which would disproportionately help the Tories. The first two groups are largely impervious to Tory persuasion. So the Tories need to GAIN votes over last time in significant numbers. Where are they going to come from?

    I agree a characteristically thoughtful piece by DH.

    But I think that NPXMP is being a little complacent.

    Some of Gordons 29% and the left leaning 7% of LDs will have died, some will have moved, some will have changed their minds and some will have gone kipper, and some will not bother to vote next time. Some will have gone SNP, PC, Green or Respect.

    If 10-15% of the 36% fall into one or other of these then Labours vote would be around 32%, leaving a lot of others up for grabs.

    The Tories are showing similar attrition themselves and showing little sign of hoovering these up.

    The volatility of the polls over the years shows that it is not yet game over. All parties need to play to the whistle.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,890
    Plato said:

    Morning!

    Quick technical question - apart from files being twice the size, what does Blue Ray formatting do that HD doesn't? I haven't seen many BR movies, but the quality does seem a bit richer/better depth when it comes to CGI.

    You've answered your own question. The larger the file size, the more data that can be put on for the same scene. As long as it is not extraneous information (e.g. subtitles, audio channels), then you *should* get a better image quality.

    Often the image quality will not be noticeable, but when it is: wow. At company Y we used to play the first half hour of 'Saving Private Ryan' on an endless loop on our test benches as it was a fairly good test of the decoding - data rich, and the explosions show up compression artifacting well.

    But there is a law of diminishing returns; eventually you reach a state where most people cannot see a difference (especially as few people seem to calibrate their TVs).
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918
    edited June 2013
    OK, so one can try and draw parallels with 1983 and 1987, but there are major differences.
    To start with the governments previous to those elections were one-party, rather than coalitions. We now have a coalition and for one partner it would appear that roughly half it's voters, and more in some areas, have taken what appears to be terminal umbrage at the party's participation in that coalition. At the same time the other partner has split, over what appear to be fairly basic issues.
    Further, in 1983 there wasn't much, if any, of a "sleaze" issue. The big argument was over the competence or otherwise, both of the government party, resolved to a large extent by the Falklands War, and of the major opposition party, and in this case especially of it's leader.
    In 1997 the government party was on the defensive on both sleaze and competence.
    Thirdly there are the party leaders. As far as 1983 is concerned, people may not have liked Mrs T, but she was respected. David Steeel was widely seen as a decent man. Michael Foot was seen, as I recall, as a bit of a bumbler, with some friends whose loyalty to the State was questionable (...... and the Cold War was still in progress, remember). Three of the Gang of Four were also widely respected, especially Roy Jenkins.
    Forward to 1997, and Major was seen as a nice man well out of his depth. Blair was a clean, fresh face, with no baggage, and the time Labour had spent out of office had meant that he was, to a considerable degree, surrounded by people untarnished by the Winter of Discontent. Paddy Ashdown, too, although he'd a problem or two was seen as a likeable, competent man, whose training had prepared him to cope with leadership. In England at any rate there wasn't another option, except perhaps Sir James Goldsmith, a weirdo!
    Now what have we got? Cameron is seen as wildly out-of-touch with his own party members, let alone the person in the street, and to rely very largely on a close circle of the similarly out-of-touch. Clegg is perceived as someone whose touch on anything is fatal and moreover is fundamentally dishonest and Milliband as somewhat weird, although by no means in the same league as Goldsmith.
    In neither 1983 nor 1997 did we have what appears at the moment at any rate to be a significnt fourth party, in England anyway, unashamedly on the right, whose leader is either very popular as "in touch with the inner Englishman" or regarded with deep suspicion.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Plato said:

    Morning!

    Quick technical question - apart from files being twice the size, what does Blue Ray formatting do that HD doesn't? I haven't seen many BR movies, but the quality does seem a bit richer/better depth when it comes to CGI.

    You've answered your own question. The larger the file size, the more data that can be put on for the same scene. As long as it is not extraneous information (e.g. subtitles, audio channels), then you *should* get a better image quality.

    Often the image quality will not be noticeable, but when it is: wow. At company Y we used to play the first half hour of 'Saving Private Ryan' on an endless loop on our test benches as it was a fairly good test of the decoding - data rich, and the explosions show up compression artifacting well.

    But there is a law of diminishing returns; eventually you reach a state where most people cannot see a difference (especially as few people seem to calibrate their TVs).
    Thanks - I just wondered if there was something particularly clever about BR encoding.

    The Avengers in BR is awesome - the field of depth is so good, I could almost touch the characters/sets, it looks crisper and sharper than reality if that makes any sense. Very impressive if you're a connoisseur of this stuff.
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    EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Morning all, I assume OGH hasn't got his peerage today? Are we really going to see insipid growth this year? It was +0.3% in Q1, every figure since April shows stronger performances so Q2 is likely to be +0.5% which gives us +0.8% in the 1st 6 months. The Q3 might be slower because North Sea Oil output will fall due to high maintenance programmes being planned in the summer but surely if growth is to be <1% then we will have to see a contraction in either Q3 of Q4?

    In the past month or so we have had the announcement of no fewer than a dozen large infrastructural civil engineering projects in the Highlands and North-east starting and I assume we are not the only part of the country to see this. Growth estimates have already been revised up by the so called experts from 0.5 to 0.8 or 1.0. Are we not likely to see 2013 growth nearer 1.5% by the end of the year, barring any major disaster of course!

    Projects I can think of
    Dualling A9
    Dualling A96
    Aberdeen by-pass
    Inverness by-pass
    A82 upgrades
    Nigg port expansion
    Cromarty Firth port expansion
    Inverness College construction
    Re-opening of one Speyside distillery 14 years after being closed
    Major warehousing expansion at Glenmorangie Distillery
    Upgrading at 5 other ports
    Go ahead given for construction of several new health centres and schools

    The creation of 80 miles of dual carriageway on both the A9 and A96 will take 12 years for the A9 and 17 years for the A96. Both projects are in the £2-3 billion range and will create/secure hundreds of construction jobs.

    The by-passes will create hundreds of jobs in the short term as will the college construction and the Nigg and Croamrty Firth projects are set to create several thousand jobs between them of which the majority are long-term jobs not simply construction ones.

    Aberdeen is booming. The oil and gas industry cannot find enough qualified engineering workers and colleges are expanding courses as fast as they can to train the next generation.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,890
    Plato said:

    Plato said:

    Morning!

    Quick technical question - apart from files being twice the size, what does Blue Ray formatting do that HD doesn't? I haven't seen many BR movies, but the quality does seem a bit richer/better depth when it comes to CGI.

    You've answered your own question. The larger the file size, the more data that can be put on for the same scene. As long as it is not extraneous information (e.g. subtitles, audio channels), then you *should* get a better image quality.

    Often the image quality will not be noticeable, but when it is: wow. At company Y we used to play the first half hour of 'Saving Private Ryan' on an endless loop on our test benches as it was a fairly good test of the decoding - data rich, and the explosions show up compression artifacting well.

    But there is a law of diminishing returns; eventually you reach a state where most people cannot see a difference (especially as few people seem to calibrate their TVs).
    Thanks - I just wondered if there was something particularly clever about BR encoding.

    The Avengers in BR is awesome - the field of depth is so good, I could almost touch the characters/sets, it looks crisper and sharper than reality if that makes any sense. Very impressive if you're a connoisseur of this stuff.
    Nothing special about the encoding from memory: mostly it's just bog-standard MPEG AFAICR. MPEG-2, MPEG-4 and a weird MS format are also supported as standard. Although that may have changed whist I've been out of that part of the industry - specs had a tendency to creep.

    More data helps in scenes that are fast-moving: in these, there is less similarity between frames and groups of frames, and so more data needs to be stored. It is why you often get artifacting in flames on a standard-definition broadcast - it's hard to encode the flames within the frame rate.

    But as I've said, most people don't calibrate their TV's video and audio to get the best performance. I've been to friend's houses where they're showing off their new wonderful blu-ray player on a TV that is out of alignment and fuzzy.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    Morning all, I assume OGH hasn't got his peerage today?

    It ought to be hereditary, when he gets it, so Robert isn't left out ;)
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    A joyless recovery doesn't have to be a voteless recovery. But both the Conservatives and the Lib Dems need to establish their narrative for such a recovery in the voters' minds, and explain why it's important to vote for them in 2015. That means, among other things, talking with the electorate about the economy.

    Nick Palmer is being too complacent. Voting for Labour as an opposition party is a different proposition to voting for Labour as a party of government. While 2010 Lib Dem voters now seem to have the zeal of the convert for Labour, there's no particular reason why 2010 Labour voters might not change their minds. Or simply not vote. It's hardly as if they're overwhelmed with enthusiasm for the current Labour leadership.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125
    I have mentioned the idea of a voteless recovery several times recently. My main reason for doing so is that although the economy is now recovering the economic circumstances of the voters are not. These charts are a little out of date now (its got worse) but the numbers are still staggering: http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2013/jun/12/workers-deepest-cuts-real-wages-ifs

    It now seems unlikely that real wages will even be holding their own by the next election. The small upward blip we saw last week seemed to be almost entirely driven by deferred bonuses and government policy is going to drive cuts in public sector earnings (something the government has found extremely difficult so far).

    As the article said this is already completely unprecedented. By 2015 we will be in a situation that has not been recorded since the industrial revolution. How will voters respond?

    Firstly, I think it is very unlikely that the government will get credit for the upturn. People will simply not feel better off because they are not. They will be worse off.

    Secondly, the number still blaming the last Labour government remains important. This has remained surprisingly steady over time. Will it remain at current levels in 2 years time?

    Thirdly, and most hopefully for the tories, will people think they are being offered a meaningful choice? This turns on the competency question that David discusses but I think it also goes to credibility. If Labour fail to reposition themselves to a point of accepting cuts to reduce the deficit and stop promising more goodies that the majority know we cannot afford they will not get the votes.

    1983 is indeed the model for the last point. 1997 is when Labour did appear to offer such a choice. Labour need to get their thinking hats on. There is a narrative being established which is not favourable to them and it is their own fault.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2013
    @JosiasJessop

    " It is why you often get artifacting in flames on a standard-definition broadcast - it's hard to encode the flames within the frame rate"

    Indeed - there aren't many films where they don't look like CGI, and pretty poor at that. That's why I still think Backdraft is the best flames movie as they're real...

    I've noticed a certain video game quality CGI creeping into rather a lot of movies - it was obvious in Inception too, there's something about it that just feels wrong particularly during high-speed action. I find it really distracting.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125

    Morning all, I assume OGH hasn't got his peerage today? Are we really going to see insipid growth this year? It was +0.3% in Q1, every figure since April shows stronger performances so Q2 is likely to be +0.5% which gives us +0.8% in the 1st 6 months. The Q3 might be slower because North Sea Oil output will fall due to high maintenance programmes being planned in the summer but surely if growth is to be <1% then we will have to see a contraction in either Q3 of Q4?

    In the past month or so we have had the announcement of no fewer than a dozen large infrastructural civil engineering projects in the Highlands and North-east starting and I assume we are not the only part of the country to see this. Growth estimates have already been revised up by the so called experts from 0.5 to 0.8 or 1.0. Are we not likely to see 2013 growth nearer 1.5% by the end of the year, barring any major disaster of course!

    Projects I can think of
    Dualling A9
    Dualling A96
    Aberdeen by-pass
    Inverness by-pass
    A82 upgrades
    Nigg port expansion
    Cromarty Firth port expansion
    Inverness College construction
    Re-opening of one Speyside distillery 14 years after being closed
    Major warehousing expansion at Glenmorangie Distillery
    Upgrading at 5 other ports
    Go ahead given for construction of several new health centres and schools

    The creation of 80 miles of dual carriageway on both the A9 and A96 will take 12 years for the A9 and 17 years for the A96. Both projects are in the £2-3 billion range and will create/secure hundreds of construction jobs.

    The by-passes will create hundreds of jobs in the short term as will the college construction and the Nigg and Croamrty Firth projects are set to create several thousand jobs between them of which the majority are long-term jobs not simply construction ones.

    Aberdeen is booming. The oil and gas industry cannot find enough qualified engineering workers and colleges are expanding courses as fast as they can to train the next generation. </p>

    Nice to see you back Easterross. I agree with your growth figures but Aberdeen is the only part of Scotland that I see any evidence of growth in. Both Dundee and Edinburgh are struggling, the latter with wave after wave of well paid banking jobs being lost.

    Of course the tories have nothing to lose up here. In England London is growing very strongly and there seems to be continued strength in the east around Cambridge. But real wages have fallen everywhere as they had to. London may be back in positive territory by the next election but the midlands etc where most of the battle seats are will not be.

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    @DavidL

    I think there is a bigger narrative that politicians of all persuasions seem unable to articulate and are certainly unabe to address: Our whole model is bust.

    What happens when societies used to freebies have to go cold turkey? What happens when economies grown dependent on borrowed money or the printing presses have to balance their budgets? What happens when people find out there are limits to what the state can do?

    All the devleoped nations are pushing deeper into the 'extend and pray' zone and seem quite incapable of accepting what is becoming obvious. A major fallout and rebalancing is coming along.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Am I alone with Andrea in being utterly disgusted that Rutlands finest - Hunky Dinky Dunky has again been passed over for an honour - he deserves at least a MBE - Miniature of the British Empire.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Good morning, everyone.

    Miss Plato, I think that sort of thing is one of the largest problems with Indiana Jones and the Annoying Son. 'Real' effects (such as in the A-team) hold up better than dated or just obvious CGI.

    In F1 news, Lotus has criticised Pirelli for taking conservative tyre choices to several of the next races: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22905355
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    Morning all, interesting piece by John Le Carre on secret courts
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/14/spies-influence-john-le-carre
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Final TV question - are the Stargates worth watching? I see there's SG, SG Atlantis and SG Universe...
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125
    @Patrick

    That is a little too apocalyptic for me. I do not think our economy is bust but it is seriously out of synch.

    I would like this government, and the tories in particular, to do as David suggests and spend more time talking about these issues. Not only is it necessary to eliminate the current deficit but it is also necessary to run surpluses for very considerable periods of time to reduce the absolute level of debt.

    The implications of that in both the level of services the state can provide and the level of taxation it is going to require are profound and not adequately discussed. I find this strange because almost by default the tories seem to be winning this argument and it is key to them being re-elected. I suspect that they look at the way their lead fell in the run up to the election when they started hinting at these things and find silence the better option. I think they are wrong to do that.

    As things stand there is a risk that someone like Balls may seek to steal a march on them by seeking to reduce benefits for better off pensioners. We have already seen a tiny example of that but that is an area where Labour have little to lose. Thankfully, the absurd determination to keep a blank sheet of paper means this risk is relatively low.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Plato said:

    Final TV question - are the Stargates worth watching? I see there's SG, SG Atlantis and SG Universe...

    I'd say yes (not so much Universe), but I'm a bit of a nerd.

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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    Labour hit 35% with ICM the month after the GE - basically as soon as the LDs went into coalition with the Tories - and have been at or above that level pretty much ever since. It would be interesting to know if there have been any similar upward ticks for losing governments in polls so soon after an election defeat.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Good morning, everyone.

    Miss Plato, I think that sort of thing is one of the largest problems with Indiana Jones and the Annoying Son. 'Real' effects (such as in the A-team) hold up better than dated or just obvious CGI.

    In F1 news, Lotus has criticised Pirelli for taking conservative tyre choices to several of the next races: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22905355

    I'd forgotten about the A Team, - but you're right. If you haven't seen them, the Hooper/Burt Reynolds films have some superb car stunts that were record breakers in their time.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLokDBOb7-U - the jet powered car is at 4.25 secs but its well worth watching from the start as they pack in every car stunt you can imagine.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    Interesting piece. I confess, the fact of the joyles recovery is why even when things were more optimistic back in 2010 I thought Labour would definitely get back in anyway.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    Plato said:

    Final TV question - are the Stargates worth watching? I see there's SG, SG Atlantis and SG Universe...

    Yes on SG-1 certainly. Atlantis was more hit and miss, not seen Universe.

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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    Plato said:

    @JosiasJessop
    I've noticed a certain video game quality CGI creeping into rather a lot of movies - it was obvious in Inception too, there's something about it that just feels wrong particularly during high-speed action. I find it really distracting.

    I've heard this is why 2012 was not as impactful as, say, Independence Day - the destruction of a city looked like a video game cutscene. A good cutscene, but it's not the same.

    I read a comedy article which had a piece on physical effects in movies, and the 'creeping horizontal flames' in Independence Day, done by building a model city, putting it on its side and lighting it on fire and slowing the footage down. It was amusingly pointed out that that is how you did it back in the day, spending weeks on making it, doing it in one and then hoping you didn't mess it up in case the model designer found you in the parking lot later and beat the crap out of you for making him do it again.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Its wise comments like this that make me miss the "like" button.

    I know it became a bit abused in personal spats, but we lost the baby with the bathwater.
    DavidL said:

    @Patrick

    That is a little too apocalyptic for me. I do not think our economy is bust but it is seriously out of synch.

    I would like this government, and the tories in particular, to do as David suggests and spend more time talking about these issues. Not only is it necessary to eliminate the current deficit but it is also necessary to run surpluses for very considerable periods of time to reduce the absolute level of debt.

    The implications of that in both the level of services the state can provide and the level of taxation it is going to require are profound and not adequately discussed. I find this strange because almost by default the tories seem to be winning this argument and it is key to them being re-elected. I suspect that they look at the way their lead fell in the run up to the election when they started hinting at these things and find silence the better option. I think they are wrong to do that.

    As things stand there is a risk that someone like Balls may seek to steal a march on them by seeking to reduce benefits for better off pensioners. We have already seen a tiny example of that but that is an area where Labour have little to lose. Thankfully, the absurd determination to keep a blank sheet of paper means this risk is relatively low.

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    boulayboulay Posts: 3,860
    JackW said:

    Am I alone with Andrea in being utterly disgusted that Rutlands finest - Hunky Dinky Dunky has again been passed over for an honour - he deserves at least a MBE - Miniature of the British Empire.

    Re honours, I am more surprised by the life imitating art aspect of baldrick being knighted before blackadder where the undeserving fool lucks into ermine due to political patronage rather than the more intelligent and deserving anti-hero....

    Blackadder the third - dish and dishonesty - as valid a criticism of politics today as the time in which it is set....
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Miss Plato, SG-1 definitely is. Not seen Atlantis.

    Universe is a bit hit and miss, I think.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Lucid piece by David as always, but whistling in the dark IMO. The Tory deifict is made up of three elements, none of which are readily suscpetible to change because of a recovery, because they aren't primarily driven by the economy (and often not inclined to think any of the parties much good at it):

    1) The 29% who preferred Gordon to Dave

    2) The 7% or so who were on the left of the LibDems (and prefer Balls to Osborne by a large margin)

    3) The fed-up Kippers

    It's possible to imagine 3) collapsing, which would disproportionately help the Tories. The first two groups are largely impervious to Tory persuasion. So the Tories need to GAIN votes over last time in significant numbers. Where are they going to come from?

    You may be right, but the tone sounds very self-entitled. And dare I say it complacent.

    NOTA is a big pool to fish in, as are some of the right of the LibDems who may not like the idea of a coalition with Miliband.
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    PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,274
    1987 is perhaps a better comparison than 1983. By 1986 government fortunes were at a low ebb. However, a combination of a successful Tory conference, a determined follow-through, an improving economic background and a Labour leader who was demonstrably unfit to be Prime Minister saw the government's poll ratings improve steadily right through to the election in June 1987.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    kle4 said:

    Plato said:

    @JosiasJessop
    I've noticed a certain video game quality CGI creeping into rather a lot of movies - it was obvious in Inception too, there's something about it that just feels wrong particularly during high-speed action. I find it really distracting.

    I've heard this is why 2012 was not as impactful as, say, Independence Day - the destruction of a city looked like a video game cutscene. A good cutscene, but it's not the same.

    I read a comedy article which had a piece on physical effects in movies, and the 'creeping horizontal flames' in Independence Day, done by building a model city, putting it on its side and lighting it on fire and slowing the footage down. It was amusingly pointed out that that is how you did it back in the day, spending weeks on making it, doing it in one and then hoping you didn't mess it up in case the model designer found you in the parking lot later and beat the crap out of you for making him do it again.
    Ha! That's what I loved about 70s and early 80s action movies - the stunts were real and things had to be done in one take.

    When I think about a film like the Blues Bros where they wrecked 103 cars in a single chase [and broke the record for doing so] or the spiral jump in Live & Let Die or Hooper et al and compare that to CGI - it just doesn't compare.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMagP52BWG8 - check out the sweetie papers rolling around on the dashboard as Dan Ackroyd drives through the parking lot...
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited June 2013
    boulay said:

    JackW said:

    Am I alone with Andrea in being utterly disgusted that Rutlands finest - Hunky Dinky Dunky has again been passed over for an honour - he deserves at least a MBE - Miniature of the British Empire.

    Re honours, I am more surprised by the life imitating art aspect of baldrick being knighted before blackadder where the undeserving fool lucks into ermine due to political patronage rather than the more intelligent and deserving anti-hero....

    Blackadder the third - dish and dishonesty - as valid a criticism of politics today as the time in which it is set....
    May be someone on the Honours Committee has a sense of humour...

    As an aside, I am seriously pleased that Michael Hintze has been knighted. He is a simply fantastic guy and unbelievably generous.

    Charlie Mayfield I know less well, but by reputation he is a very decent guy (just don't talk about Ewhurst)
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125
    @foxinsoxuk

    Thank you, that was a very kind comment.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Can anyone recommend a few good war movies? I was fed on a diet of them as a kid [BBC2 when Grandstand was on] and can't really remember the good from the bad from the propaganda flick.

    All Quiet on the Western Front springs to mind - any others? No Vietnam ones though - Full Apocalypse Platoon Hamburger July just remind me of being a teenager.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125
    Charles said:

    Lucid piece by David as always, but whistling in the dark IMO. The Tory deifict is made up of three elements, none of which are readily suscpetible to change because of a recovery, because they aren't primarily driven by the economy (and often not inclined to think any of the parties much good at it):

    1) The 29% who preferred Gordon to Dave

    2) The 7% or so who were on the left of the LibDems (and prefer Balls to Osborne by a large margin)

    3) The fed-up Kippers

    It's possible to imagine 3) collapsing, which would disproportionately help the Tories. The first two groups are largely impervious to Tory persuasion. So the Tories need to GAIN votes over last time in significant numbers. Where are they going to come from?

    You may be right, but the tone sounds very self-entitled. And dare I say it complacent.

    NOTA is a big pool to fish in, as are some of the right of the LibDems who may not like the idea of a coalition with Miliband.
    I agree Charles. At the last election Lord Mandelson ran an extremely effective scare campaign claiming the tories were going to do many evil things such as cut health spending (the fact that Labour were willing to do that themselves was inevitably overlooked). All that hysteria and hyperbole meant that the Labour vote held up much better than it should have done but it also meant that they were lied to.

    What I think the rise and partial fall of UKIP has shown is that politics in this country is more volatile and less tribal than we generally assume. The idea that Labour's 29% was a core vote that is never going to move is based on old assumptions I am not sure are valid anymore.

    Volatility does not mean the tories will win of course, they may lose even more badly, but the next election is more up for grabs than the 29% + 7%'s think.
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    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Charles said:

    boulay said:

    JackW said:

    Am I alone with Andrea in being utterly disgusted that Rutlands finest - Hunky Dinky Dunky has again been passed over for an honour - he deserves at least a MBE - Miniature of the British Empire.

    Re honours, I am more surprised by the life imitating art aspect of baldrick being knighted before blackadder where the undeserving fool lucks into ermine due to political patronage rather than the more intelligent and deserving anti-hero....

    Blackadder the third - dish and dishonesty - as valid a criticism of politics today as the time in which it is set....
    May be someone on the Honours Committee has a sense of humour...

    As an aside, I am seriously pleased that Michael Hintze has been knighted. He is a simply fantastic guy and unbelievably generous.
    Clearly they are chuckling away as we speak.

    Ask Liam Fox or Adam Werritty about his generosity and they will be even more fulsome in their praise.

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    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    Plato said:

    Can anyone recommend a few good war movies? I was fed on a diet of them as a kid [BBC2 when Grandstand was on] and can't really remember the good from the bad from the propaganda flick.

    All Quiet on the Western Front springs to mind - any others? No Vietnam ones though - Full Apocalypse Platoon Hamburger July just remind me of being a teenager.


    The Paths of Glory.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    The Guns of Navarone, Miss Plato.
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    PBModeratorPBModerator Posts: 661
    @Mick Pork

    Please provide a link to what you are alluding to.
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    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    "If that’s so, you might say, why then does George Osborne lag Ed Balls in the ratings?"

    Because Osbrowne is a toxic liability who comes up with master strategies like banging on about Europe and immigration to kill the kipper vote. It's certainly not because Ed Balls is impressive.
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    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    LOL
    Tory donor Michael Hintze knighted in Queen's Birthday Honours


    One of the Conservative Party's biggest donors has been given a knighthood in the Queen's birthday honours list.

    Michael Hintze, who has handed more than £1.5 million to the Tories, will be given the honour for services to the arts and philanthropy.

    The millionaire hedge fund manager has a relatively low-profile as a Conservative supporter, but two years ago, he was dragged into the controversy that led Dr Liam Fox to resign as Defence Secretary in 2011.

    It emerged Mr Hintze had helped bankroll the travel and office space of Dr Fox's friend and self-styled adviser Adam Werritty, who unofficially accompanied the Government minister around the world.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10121772/Tory-donor-Michael-Hintze-knighted-in-Queens-Birthday-Honours.html
    And for good measure.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKvENIKa8pc
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    @MorrisDancer @MonikerDiCanio

    Thanks - haven't seen GoN in years and don't know Paths at all - if any more spring to mind...
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Mick_Pork said:

    Charles said:

    boulay said:

    JackW said:

    Am I alone with Andrea in being utterly disgusted that Rutlands finest - Hunky Dinky Dunky has again been passed over for an honour - he deserves at least a MBE - Miniature of the British Empire.

    Re honours, I am more surprised by the life imitating art aspect of baldrick being knighted before blackadder where the undeserving fool lucks into ermine due to political patronage rather than the more intelligent and deserving anti-hero....

    Blackadder the third - dish and dishonesty - as valid a criticism of politics today as the time in which it is set....
    May be someone on the Honours Committee has a sense of humour...

    As an aside, I am seriously pleased that Michael Hintze has been knighted. He is a simply fantastic guy and unbelievably generous.
    Clearly they are chuckling away as we speak.

    Ask Liam Fox or Adam Werritty about his generosity and they will be even more fulsome in their praise.

    Before you make any snide comments, just have a quick look at how much his foundation has given away. (My cousin Alex got him involved in philanthropy originally, so we do keep an eye on his activities)
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Charles said:

    Mick_Pork said:

    Charles said:

    boulay said:

    JackW said:

    Am I alone with Andrea in being utterly disgusted that Rutlands finest - Hunky Dinky Dunky has again been passed over for an honour - he deserves at least a MBE - Miniature of the British Empire.

    Re honours, I am more surprised by the life imitating art aspect of baldrick being knighted before blackadder where the undeserving fool lucks into ermine due to political patronage rather than the more intelligent and deserving anti-hero....

    Blackadder the third - dish and dishonesty - as valid a criticism of politics today as the time in which it is set....
    May be someone on the Honours Committee has a sense of humour...

    As an aside, I am seriously pleased that Michael Hintze has been knighted. He is a simply fantastic guy and unbelievably generous.
    Clearly they are chuckling away as we speak.

    Ask Liam Fox or Adam Werritty about his generosity and they will be even more fulsome in their praise.

    Before you make any snide comments, just have a quick look at how much his foundation has given away. (My cousin Alex got him involved in philanthropy originally, so we do keep an eye on his activities)
    [edit: Mr Moderator, I believe that Hintze made some private donations to Fox's office and P0rk believes this counteracts all his good works]
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Plato... Letters from Iwo Jimo...The Thin Red Line ....
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    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Charles said:

    Mick_Pork said:

    Charles said:

    boulay said:

    JackW said:

    Am I alone with Andrea in being utterly disgusted that Rutlands finest - Hunky Dinky Dunky has again been passed over for an honour - he deserves at least a MBE - Miniature of the British Empire.

    Re honours, I am more surprised by the life imitating art aspect of baldrick being knighted before blackadder where the undeserving fool lucks into ermine due to political patronage rather than the more intelligent and deserving anti-hero....

    Blackadder the third - dish and dishonesty - as valid a criticism of politics today as the time in which it is set....
    May be someone on the Honours Committee has a sense of humour...

    As an aside, I am seriously pleased that Michael Hintze has been knighted. He is a simply fantastic guy and unbelievably generous.
    Clearly they are chuckling away as we speak.

    Ask Liam Fox or Adam Werritty about his generosity and they will be even more fulsome in their praise.

    Before you make any snide comments, just have a quick look at how much his foundation has given away
    To the tory party?

    Sorry but I could have sworn you and others were making snide comments about 'Baldrick' getting a knighthood due to party affiliation. Still one rule for PB tories and one rule for everyone else is it Charles?


  • Options
    CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    Very interesting announcement yesterday. The staff room split (80/20) between people like me, dancing gleefully on the grave of levels, and folk in fear of stabliser-free chaos akimbo. Me, I like that kind of chaos. It can't be worse than the pointless skills-not-knowledge based subjective, skewable stew that levels are.

    Obviously, I'm expecting this to be a move in a longer game that will make some people very rich at the expense of the taxpayer. But for now, hurrah!

    http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/teachingandlearning/curriculum/nationalcurriculum2014/a00225864/assessing-without-levels
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    The major reasons that UKIP is likely to under-perform at the next GE are technical rather than due to parties' respective popularity.

    UKIP is run on a shoe-string, with very little organisation and few 'feet on the ground'. This will really hurt when it is understood that postal votes will be 25-30% at the next GE. The other 3 parties are well organized in handling that: UKIP is not. That this has a negative effective on democracy is conveniently forgotten. Either the tories or the LDs could have righted that wrong. The latter preferred to work on other constitutional reforms, neither of which was well thought through.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2013
    @RichardDodd - thanks - don't remember either of those

    Watching The Prestige - it's rather good so far...
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141
    edited June 2013
    antifrank said:

    Voting for Labour as an opposition party is a different proposition to voting for Labour as a party of government. While 2010 Lib Dem voters now seem to have the zeal of the convert for Labour, there's no particular reason why 2010 Labour voters might not change their minds. Or simply not vote. It's hardly as if they're overwhelmed with enthusiasm for the current Labour leadership.

    This is true, but against that the Tory decontamination strategy - which was delivering in 2010 at least to some extent - seems to have fallen apart. Part of the point of decontamination was to prevent people who were underwhelmed with Labour from turning out to vote for them just to keep out the Tories. But they've killed that, partly because the leadership tried to get clever and veered off-message and partly because the party decided they weren't going to let them do it.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Plato..both are set in the Pacific WW2.."Letters " is directed by Clint Eastwood and is from the Japanese perspective..
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Mick_Pork said:

    Charles said:

    Mick_Pork said:

    Charles said:

    boulay said:

    JackW said:

    Am I alone with Andrea in being utterly disgusted that Rutlands finest - Hunky Dinky Dunky has again been passed over for an honour - he deserves at least a MBE - Miniature of the British Empire.

    Re honours, I am more surprised by the life imitating art aspect of baldrick being knighted before blackadder where the undeserving fool lucks into ermine due to political patronage rather than the more intelligent and deserving anti-hero....

    Blackadder the third - dish and dishonesty - as valid a criticism of politics today as the time in which it is set....
    May be someone on the Honours Committee has a sense of humour...

    As an aside, I am seriously pleased that Michael Hintze has been knighted. He is a simply fantastic guy and unbelievably generous.
    Clearly they are chuckling away as we speak.

    Ask Liam Fox or Adam Werritty about his generosity and they will be even more fulsome in their praise.

    Before you make any snide comments, just have a quick look at how much his foundation has given away
    To the tory party?

    Sorry but I could have sworn you and others were making snide comments about 'Baldrick' getting a knighthood due to party affiliation. Still one rule for PB tories and one rule for everyone else is it Charles?


    The only comment I made on Tony Robinson was that someone has a sense of humour - i.e. promoting Baldrick above Blackadder. I know he is a Labour activist (on the NEC?) and presents Time Team, but have no informed view on whether he deserves a knighthood or not. My assumption would be yes, as it's not easy to get through the process.

    Hintze has given away millions of pounds to the National Gallery (where he is a Trustee), to the V&A and to many other good causes. He's given some tens of thousands (from memory) to the Tories, which any private citizen is entitled to do.

    I'm proud of the fact that some of those who make a lot of money in our society choose to give it back. And I'm glad that the country recognises that through the honours system. If the prospect of a knighthood encourages just one more person to give away money then that is a great thing.

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    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited June 2013

    The major reasons that UKIP is likely to under-perform at the next GE are technical rather than due to parties' respective popularity.

    UKIP is run on a shoe-string, with very little organisation and few 'feet on the ground'. This will really hurt when it is understood that postal votes will be 25-30% at the next GE. The other 3 parties are well organized in handling that: UKIP is not. That this has a negative effective on democracy is conveniently forgotten. Either the tories or the LDs could have righted that wrong. The latter preferred to work on other constitutional reforms, neither of which was well thought through.

    FPTP in other words. You can thank Clegg for putting up a "miserable little compromise" in AV and then helpfully becoming the face of it just to make sure it died a very pitiful death.

    Postal votes are an electoral fact of life that every party has to deal with. Even the Greens and Galloway dealt with it with a minimal budget and astute targeting. The lib dems have taken massive hits on their base year on year despite having some expertise in dealing with that and a formidable on the ground GOTV organisation. So it's not quite a 'magic bullet' for any party. More of a basic requirement for any party with serious aspirations in harnessing their vote most effectively.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Plato..both are set in the Pacific WW2.."Letters " is directed by Clint Eastwood and is from the Japanese perspective..

    That's interesting re Mr Eastwood - I rather like his films. Million Dollar Baby is one of my favourites.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Plato said:

    @MorrisDancer @MonikerDiCanio

    Thanks - haven't seen GoN in years and don't know Paths at all - if any more spring to mind...

    Battle of Britain .. Reach for the Sky .. Bridge Too Far .. Longest Day .. The Eagle has Landed .. Where Eagles Dare .. Band of Brothers .. Bridge Over the River Kwai .. Battle of Midway .. U571 .. Battle of the Bulge .. Sink the Bismarck .. Enigma

    To be going on with ....

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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Plato.. It is an interesting film.. based on some letters home that were found in a cave..He did another one based in that area .. "Flags of our Fathers'..I have it here but never watched it, I will try and get round to it when the weather breaks
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    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited June 2013
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    Carola said:

    Very interesting announcement yesterday. The staff room split (80/20) between people like me, dancing gleefully on the grave of levels, and folk in fear of stabliser-free chaos akimbo. Me, I like that kind of chaos. It can't be worse than the pointless skills-not-knowledge based subjective, skewable stew that levels are.

    Obviously, I'm expecting this to be a move in a longer game that will make some people very rich at the expense of the taxpayer. But for now, hurrah!

    http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/teachingandlearning/curriculum/nationalcurriculum2014/a00225864/assessing-without-levels

    Levelling marking very top down mechanistic nonsense - akin to estimating the number of angels dancing on a pin head - is this evaluation, can this be analysis, can this be level 4 or 5. Not easy for non science subjects where 50 or more shades of grey are open to judgement.

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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    First of The Few - very, good example of a British wartime propaganda film - great music by Walton.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVSm_f7bO8s

    Clip with Leslie Howard - who was killed in 1943.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6bBZhbxSeE
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2013
    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BMyrnRmCMAATI1w.jpg:large

    Tony Smith @TonyNewsCamera
    If I did this in a car I'd cop a £50 fine MT “@LossieStnCdr: From the cockpit on the way into The Mall! pic.twitter.com/iWhVKQZ7dp”
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Mick_Pork said:

    The major reasons that UKIP is likely to under-perform at the next GE are technical rather than due to parties' respective popularity.

    UKIP is run on a shoe-string, with very little organisation and few 'feet on the ground'. This will really hurt when it is understood that postal votes will be 25-30% at the next GE. The other 3 parties are well organized in handling that: UKIP is not. That this has a negative effective on democracy is conveniently forgotten. Either the tories or the LDs could have righted that wrong. The latter preferred to work on other constitutional reforms, neither of which was well thought through.

    FPTP in other words. You can thank Clegg for putting up a "miserable little compromise" in AV and then helpfully becoming the face of it just to make sure it died a very pitiful death.

    Postal votes are an electoral fact of life that every party has to deal with. Even the Greens and Galloway dealt with it with a minimal budget and astute targeting. The lib dems have taken massive hits on their base year on year despite having some expertise in dealing with that and a formidable on the ground GOTV organisation. So it's not quite a 'magic bullet' for any party. More of a basic requirement for any party with serious aspirations in harnessing their vote most effectively.

    I think David is being a little too pesemistic. True that UKIP have a lot to do as regards organization but new branches are being formed and others strengthened. Postal voting is a thing that has to be tackled and it will be.
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    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited June 2013
    Daily Mail Online ‏@MailOnline

    Cameron to hold emergency talks with Obama over Syria crisis and will target Putin as U.S. plans no-fly zone and they will take military action if he doesn’t back down on Syria http://dailym.ai/12tTQf2

    THE THE ‏@thethe

    Daily Telegraph: Can David Cameron explain why he has put us on al-Qaeda’s side? http://tinyurl.com/l7jl3wp
    Doesn't seem to be the best idea in the world but it really needs a pretty straight sort of a guy to help persuade everyone of the wisdom of the move.
    Michael Savage ‏@michaelsavage

    Tony Blair tells the Times that Syria presents "exactly the same arguments we went through over Iraq".

    Like that.
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    MillsyMillsy Posts: 900

    Labour hit 35% with ICM the month after the GE - basically as soon as the LDs went into coalition with the Tories - and have been at or above that level pretty much ever since. It would be interesting to know if there have been any similar upward ticks for losing governments in polls so soon after an election defeat.

    I doubt it, as we've never had a coalition before. But does it not worry you that 3 years later Labour are no better off?
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    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    MikeK said:

    Mick_Pork said:

    The major reasons that UKIP is likely to under-perform at the next GE are technical rather than due to parties' respective popularity.

    UKIP is run on a shoe-string, with very little organisation and few 'feet on the ground'. This will really hurt when it is understood that postal votes will be 25-30% at the next GE. The other 3 parties are well organized in handling that: UKIP is not. That this has a negative effective on democracy is conveniently forgotten. Either the tories or the LDs could have righted that wrong. The latter preferred to work on other constitutional reforms, neither of which was well thought through.

    FPTP in other words. You can thank Clegg for putting up a "miserable little compromise" in AV and then helpfully becoming the face of it just to make sure it died a very pitiful death.

    Postal votes are an electoral fact of life that every party has to deal with. Even the Greens and Galloway dealt with it with a minimal budget and astute targeting. The lib dems have taken massive hits on their base year on year despite having some expertise in dealing with that and a formidable on the ground GOTV organisation. So it's not quite a 'magic bullet' for any party. More of a basic requirement for any party with serious aspirations in harnessing their vote most effectively.

    I think David is being a little too pesemistic. True that UKIP have a lot to do as regards organization but new branches are being formed and others strengthened.
    The kippers will also inevitably target certain seats and areas to best utilise their resources.
    Come the election that will be a tricky call about the total number and which to give priority but again that is no different to the other parties. There will be a media focus on where Farage stands but I would think there has to be more than just absolute priority and every resource given to one seat and expect there will be.
    MikeK said:

    Postal voting is a thing that has to be tackled and it will be.

    It's not some insurmountable barrier, more fairly dull but necessary logistics along with the activists ready to put in the footwork required.
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    There are far too many war films to list that are superb, but a few more recent(ish!) films and TV series worth mentioning, in my opinion are Blackhawk Down, The Pacific, Generation Kill, Taegukgi, The Hurt Locker.
    Even movies like The Peacemaker, Battle Los Angeles and Starship Troopers are worth a look if you fancy some no brainer helicopter shooty shooty adventure.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141
    edited June 2013
    OT - Britain: A local shop for local people, nothing for you here.

    The announcement paves the way for more work to be undertaken to enable the introduction of DB’s long-planned high speed services between Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Köln and London....

    A further significant hurdle is border and immigration control, as the UK is not a signatory to the Schengen agreement which has removed passport formalities between EU member states. The UK Border Agency has stated that no further juxtaposed border controls would be permitted beyond those facilities already provided to Eurostar passengers in Lille, Paris and Brussels, and UKBA is also unlikely to approve DB’s suggestion that checks be carried out onboard. Meanwhile, passengers using Eurostar’s trial service from Aix-en-Provence TGV to London this summer have been required to leave their train at Lille Europe to go through immigration procedures.
    Edit: Forgot the link.
    http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/igc-grants-deutsche-bahn-access-to-channel-tunnel.html
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    @A_Liberty_Rebel 10m
    Nick Clegg has been allocated a late role in #troopingthecolour. It involves a bucket and a shovel
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    There are far too many war films to list that are superb, but a few more recent(ish!) films and TV series worth mentioning, in my opinion are Blackhawk Down, The Pacific, Generation Kill, Taegukgi, The Hurt Locker.
    Even movies like The Peacemaker, Battle Los Angeles and Starship Troopers are worth a look if you fancy some no brainer helicopter shooty shooty adventure.

    I thought Hurt Locker was okay - ditto BH Down, but Starship Troopers is simply brilliant - saw it at the pictures twice years ago and the hard ass platoon leader is great

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y07I_KER5fE

    On another note - the list of those who turned down Honours is fascinating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declining_a_British_honour
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Starship Troopers is an interesting film (and has near nothing to do with the Heinlen book), as a hymn to fascism. You can see the appeal, and by the end of the film the Director has the heroes decked out in Nazi style uniforms. I am sure that this is deliberate as Paul Very oven has addressed the issue in other films. I can highly recommend his Black Book, which also covers moral ambiguity and war very thou roughly.

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0389557/

    And also in his early film Soldier of Orange.

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076734/?ref_=sr_1

    Perhaps the best war (or antiwar?) Film that I have seen recently was Come and See. It is brutal in its picture of the Russian Partisan war, and must give some indication of what life is like in parts of Syria. The reprisal massacre scene is horrific in its casual brutality, particularly the church scene.

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xWL-qyS_UOM
    Plato said:

    There are far too many war films to list that are superb, but a few more recent(ish!) films and TV series worth mentioning, in my opinion are Blackhawk Down, The Pacific, Generation Kill, Taegukgi, The Hurt Locker.
    Even movies like The Peacemaker, Battle Los Angeles and Starship Troopers are worth a look if you fancy some no brainer helicopter shooty shooty adventure.

    I thought Hurt Locker was okay - ditto BH Down, but Starship Troopers is simply brilliant - saw it at the pictures twice years ago and the hard ass platoon leader is great

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y07I_KER5fE

    On another note - the list of those who turned down Honours is fascinating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declining_a_British_honour
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Plato said:

    Can anyone recommend a few good war movies? I was fed on a diet of them as a kid [BBC2 when Grandstand was on] and can't really remember the good from the bad from the propaganda flick.

    All Quiet on the Western Front springs to mind - any others? No Vietnam ones though - Full Apocalypse Platoon Hamburger July just remind me of being a teenager.

    Not exactly a war film but feels like one is "Dog Soldiers" about some squaddies on a training exercise who stumble on a pack of werewolves. Good fun.
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Plato said:

    Final TV question - are the Stargates worth watching? I see there's SG, SG Atlantis and SG Universe...

    I'd vote for Stargate Atlantis, then the original Stargate. SG Universe was almost good, but didn't quite get there.
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    War films? basically anti-war, but great films.

    Paths of Glory
    Breaker Morant
    Das Boot
    The Dambusters
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    @foxinsoxuk

    Agree re Starship and the Nazis - it was so obvious within the first 10 mins of the film with the action set in Buenos Aires and the blue eyes/Aryan look. For a film that's pretty old - its really stood up rather well.

    I've got Witness for the Prosecution on my watch-list - I wonder if that'll be as good as I remember... it had 6 Oscar nominations http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0051201/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Plato said:

    Can anyone recommend a few good war movies? I was fed on a diet of them as a kid [BBC2 when Grandstand was on] and can't really remember the good from the bad from the propaganda flick.

    All Quiet on the Western Front springs to mind - any others? No Vietnam ones though - Full Apocalypse Platoon Hamburger July just remind me of being a teenager.


    Pork chop hill,gregory peck at his best in this Korean war movie.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited June 2013
    MrJones said:

    Plato said:

    Can anyone recommend a few good war movies? I was fed on a diet of them as a kid [BBC2 when Grandstand was on] and can't really remember the good from the bad from the propaganda flick.

    All Quiet on the Western Front springs to mind - any others? No Vietnam ones though - Full Apocalypse Platoon Hamburger July just remind me of being a teenager.

    Not exactly a war film but feels like one is "Dog Soldiers" about some squaddies on a training exercise who stumble on a pack of werewolves. Good fun.
    That sounds perfect for a Saturday night with a box of Maltesers - thanks

    @RodCrosby

    "Paths of Glory
    Breaker Morant"

    Don't know them - will look them up, but agree re Das Boot and Dambusters - both super films.
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited June 2013
    Plato said:

    Can anyone recommend a few good war movies? I was fed on a diet of them as a kid [BBC2 when Grandstand was on] and can't really remember the good from the bad from the propaganda flick.

    All Quiet on the Western Front springs to mind - any others? No Vietnam ones though - Full Apocalypse Platoon Hamburger July just remind me of being a teenager.

    This Happy Breed? Master and Commander. The Eagle has Landed. Ice Cold in Alex. Zulu. The Sea Wolves. Where Eagles Dare. Father Goose.

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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    OT,

    The recovery is better than our European peers, but will be slow. It is certainly heartening that unemployment is now better than at the election. Despite the public sector attrition there has been job creation.

    A slow and steady recovery would be a good thing, rather than a return to Labour boom and bust. It does expose Balls as yesterdays man, not least as a "stimulus" package would be obsolete by 2015.

    I went to a very interesting speech by Andy Burnham on Wednesday at the national NHS commissioning show. He clearly envisages NHS cuts to fund Social care, and says there will be service closures. He also rather contradicted himself, promising to work within existing CCG structures while making them accountable to local elected councilors.

    I liked his realistic approach and expect him to be a good Health Minister next time round, and he would have been a better choice than either Milliband as leader.

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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited June 2013
    Black Book is a superb film, one out of the very top drawer. Sea of Sand is another very good film. The Wooden Horse, Ill met by Moonlight, I was Monty's double, The Cruel Sea.. the list is endless.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    Millsy said:

    Labour hit 35% with ICM the month after the GE - basically as soon as the LDs went into coalition with the Tories - and have been at or above that level pretty much ever since. It would be interesting to know if there have been any similar upward ticks for losing governments in polls so soon after an election defeat.

    I doubt it, as we've never had a coalition before. But does it not worry you that 3 years later Labour are no better off?

    If I had a shedload invested in the outcome in 2015 I would be concerned to an extent, but I don't so I'm not. The best I have always thought that Labour could realistically hope for in 2015 is to be the biggest party in another hung Parliament. I have held that view sionce June 2010 and I am not going to change now. As I have said on here many times before, my hope is for a Labour/LD coalition. I do not want Labour to govern alone. I don't thnk the party has enough energy, vision or talent to do that.

    The point about us having a coalition govertnment is an important one, though. We just do not know how polls *should* be performing, as we have not really been in this position before. My sense is that the Labour mid-level 30s score is a pretty firm base. If that is close to being the case, the Tories really do have a mountain to climb to win outright next time and a tough task to remain the largest party.

    I believe that anything other than an outright victory would make it almost certain the Tories would descend very quickly into civil war. Cameron has said that if he leads the government after the next election there will be a referendum on EU membership in 2017. But he can only be sure he can deliver on that promise if he wins outright. If he is dependent on others, that 2017 date, the quetion to be asked and even whether the vote happens are out of his control. And that will be a red rag to the right-wing fundamentalists, who will already be apoplectic that once again the Tories have failed to win power on their own.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Breaker Morant and Paths of Glory are excellent films, but like the Caine Mutiny, really trial films about moral issues in war.

    Breaker Morant is interesting in its depiction of the perpetrators of a extra judicial killing of suspects as the heroes. This may have been because murder of Boers would have been acceptable to some liberal minds 30 years ago. The British are depicted as the villains, for punishing the Australians for the killings.

    Old films do show how attitudes have moved on.

    Another recommendation would be Peckinpah's Cross of Iron:

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074695/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
    Plato said:

    MrJones said:

    Plato said:

    Can anyone recommend a few good war movies? I was fed on a diet of them as a kid [BBC2 when Grandstand was on] and can't really remember the good from the bad from the propaganda flick.

    All Quiet on the Western Front springs to mind - any others? No Vietnam ones though - Full Apocalypse Platoon Hamburger July just remind me of being a teenager.

    Not exactly a war film but feels like one is "Dog Soldiers" about some squaddies on a training exercise who stumble on a pack of werewolves. Good fun.
    That sounds perfect for a Saturday night with a box of Maltesers - thanks

    @RodCrosby

    "Paths of Glory
    Breaker Morant"

    Don't know them - will look them up, but agree re Das Boot and Dambusters - both super films.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    @SquareRoot @AnotherDave

    Some great ones in there - I don't really remember Monty's Double or Wooden Horse/Sea of Sand - isn't the Cruel Sea with Jack Hawkins? That was very powerful.

    I do love Mr Hawkins - he's ace in League of Gentlemen

    Ah yes = of course Zulu, Ice Cold and Eagle has Landed. Don't know the others - is Master and Commander the one with Russell Crowe?

    I really enjoyed Flight of the Phoenix.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Millsy said:

    Labour hit 35% with ICM the month after the GE - basically as soon as the LDs went into coalition with the Tories - and have been at or above that level pretty much ever since. It would be interesting to know if there have been any similar upward ticks for losing governments in polls so soon after an election defeat.

    I doubt it, as we've never had a coalition before. But does it not worry you that 3 years later Labour are no better off?

    If I had a shedload invested in the outcome in 2015 I would be concerned to an extent, but I don't so I'm not. The best I have always thought that Labour could realistically hope for in 2015 is to be the biggest party in another hung Parliament. I have held that view sionce June 2010 and I am not going to change now. As I have said on here many times before, my hope is for a Labour/LD coalition. I do not want Labour to govern alone. I don't thnk the party has enough energy, vision or talent to do that.

    The point about us having a coalition govertnment is an important one, though. We just do not know how polls *should* be performing, as we have not really been in this position before. My sense is that the Labour mid-level 30s score is a pretty firm base. If that is close to being the case, the Tories really do have a mountain to climb to win outright next time and a tough task to remain the largest party.

    I believe that anything other than an outright victory would make it almost certain the Tories would descend very quickly into civil war. Cameron has said that if he leads the government after the next election there will be a referendum on EU membership in 2017. But he can only be sure he can deliver on that promise if he wins outright. If he is dependent on others, that 2017 date, the quetion to be asked and even whether the vote happens are out of his control. And that will be a red rag to the right-wing fundamentalists, who will already be apoplectic that once again the Tories have failed to win power on their own.
    I still think that there will be a Labour majority, while NPXMP does sound complacent, he is right in that Labour are kicking downhill at an open goal, while the Goalkeeper argues with the center backs. The two Eds would have to be spectacularly incompetent to not put the ball in the net.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,214
    @SouthamObserver - If 2015 produces broadly the same result as 2010 (my guess is both Tories and Labour advance slightly, the LDs fall back a few seats), then the likeliest outcome is a minority Conservative and Cameron-led administration, not least because the LDs will opt for opposition to recoup and recover.

    The Referendum Bill will be its first legislation in the new Parliament. Will Labour and LD vote against it, full in the knowledge that should they combine to scuttle it, the consequence will be a second election within months when the new Govt is already enjoying its honeymoon period? I don't think so. Do you?
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    JamesKellyJamesKelly Posts: 1,348
    There's a great Finnish war film that's well worth seeing, if you can track it down. It's called 'Kissa video alkaa Lämpöydinpommin sota'.
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Plato said:

    is Master and Commander the one with Russell Crowe?

    Yes. I didn't expect to like it (I don't like the book), but it's good.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Breaker Morant and Paths of Glory are excellent films, but like the Caine Mutiny, really trial films about moral issues in war.

    Breaker Morant is interesting in its depiction of the perpetrators of a extra judicial killing of suspects as the heroes. This may have been because murder of Boers would have been acceptable to some liberal minds 30 years ago. The British are depicted as the villains, for punishing the Australians for the killings.

    Old films do show how attitudes have moved on.

    Another recommendation would be Peckinpah's Cross of Iron:

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074695/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

    Plato said:

    MrJones said:

    Plato said:

    Can anyone recommend a few good war movies? I was fed on a diet of them as a kid [BBC2 when Grandstand was on] and can't really remember the good from the bad from the propaganda flick.

    All Quiet on the Western Front springs to mind - any others? No Vietnam ones though - Full Apocalypse Platoon Hamburger July just remind me of being a teenager.

    Not exactly a war film but feels like one is "Dog Soldiers" about some squaddies on a training exercise who stumble on a pack of werewolves. Good fun.
    That sounds perfect for a Saturday night with a box of Maltesers - thanks

    @RodCrosby

    "Paths of Glory
    Breaker Morant"

    Don't know them - will look them up, but agree re Das Boot and Dambusters - both super films.
    That's one of the reasons I'm not very keen on Vietnam films - apart from the fact I find them hard to tell apart ... FMJ and Platoon are to Vietnam what Bugs and a Bugs Life are to ant movies

    I find I prefer WW2 movies that aren't in your face propaganda - In Which We Serve for instance. That was OTT even more me as a little kid.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    On Topic: One of Labour's advantage is George Osborne. Unlike Cameron, he is simply not liked , whatever the reason. He is not even one of those Chancellors who have had to difficult decisions to take but who is then well respected by the public.

    Cameron is having a lean spell. But he is essentially not disliked by the public. And his ratings will recover. In itself it does not mean much. Callaghan beat Thatcher hugely in personal liking states. Fat good it did Labour.

    George is basically seen as an upper class t**t. So any recovery [ let's face it, all economies ultimately recover. Most G20 economies are well above 2007 levels ] will not help the Tories as much as say Ken Clarke, whom the public did not hate. However, the Tories after 1992 could not have won , whatever they did !
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Millsy said:

    Labour hit 35% with ICM the month after the GE - basically as soon as the LDs went into coalition with the Tories - and have been at or above that level pretty much ever since. It would be interesting to know if there have been any similar upward ticks for losing governments in polls so soon after an election defeat.

    I doubt it, as we've never had a coalition before. But does it not worry you that 3 years later Labour are no better off?

    If I had a shedload invested in the outcome in 2015 I would be concerned to an extent, but I don't so I'm not. The best I have always thought that Labour could realistically hope for in 2015 is to be the biggest party in another hung Parliament. I have held that view sionce June 2010 and I am not going to change now. As I have said on here many times before, my hope is for a Labour/LD coalition. I do not want Labour to govern alone. I don't thnk the party has enough energy, vision or talent to do that.

    The point about us having a coalition govertnment is an important one, though. We just do not know how polls *should* be performing, as we have not really been in this position before. My sense is that the Labour mid-level 30s score is a pretty firm base. If that is close to being the case, the Tories really do have a mountain to climb to win outright next time and a tough task to remain the largest party.

    I believe that anything other than an outright victory would make it almost certain the Tories would descend very quickly into civil war. Cameron has said that if he leads the government after the next election there will be a referendum on EU membership in 2017. But he can only be sure he can deliver on that promise if he wins outright. If he is dependent on others, that 2017 date, the quetion to be asked and even whether the vote happens are out of his control. And that will be a red rag to the right-wing fundamentalists, who will already be apoplectic that once again the Tories have failed to win power on their own.
    Unless Labour fall backs to high 20's like in 2010, the Tories cannot win outright. It would effectively mean, the leftie Liberals going back home but the right wing lot went to Tories instead. Why they should do that after 2010 I am not so sure ! There again UKIP will win about 6% of the votes. Where they win could be crucial.
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited June 2013
    Another incredibly bleak, cynical anti-war adventure film is Play Dirty with Michael Caine.

    At the opposite end of the spectrum, where everyone, Germans included, are honourable, likeable heroes is The Battle of The River Plate...
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    JohnO said:

    @SouthamObserver - If 2015 produces broadly the same result as 2010 (my guess is both Tories and Labour advance slightly, the LDs fall back a few seats), then the likeliest outcome is a minority Conservative and Cameron-led administration, not least because the LDs will opt for opposition to recoup and recover.

    The Referendum Bill will be its first legislation in the new Parliament. Will Labour and LD vote against it, full in the knowledge that should they combine to scuttle it, the consequence will be a second election within months when the new Govt is already enjoying its honeymoon period? I don't think so. Do you?

    As I understand it - though I could be wrong - it is no longer within the power of the leader of a minority administration to ask the Queen to dissolve Parliament and call an election.

This discussion has been closed.