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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How Yvette Cooper could come 3rd on 1st preferences yet sti

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  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 17,497
    US betting:

    "Rubio and Fiorina have no such deviations. So here's my advice to all the traders on PaddyPower.com: Bet on a sustained rise for both of them until the field is winnowed down, or some bit of damaging opposition research is leaked to the press. They will face determined opposition eventually. But not yet."

    http://theweek.com/articles/570639/rise-carly-fiorina-marco-rubio
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 47,063

    TGOHF said:

    Catching up with Phil Hammond's comments.

    Nasty and intemperate.

    He joins Priti Patel on the list of leadership contenders I won't be voting for.

    Come on Mr Eagles,stop being so bloody PC.

    Genghis Khan was a marauder.

    I thought the criticism over swarm was nonsense but I guess I'm taking Hammond's too literally.

    My OED says marauders are thieves and attackers of people.

    I took it he was lumping all illegal immigrants in the marauder category
    I think the word you use "illegal" covers it - all are lawbreakers.

    Have you ever driven over the speed limit ?
    Yes, i've been stopped for numerous motoring offences through the years. The police and magistrates and insurance companies have all made sure I've 'paid the price'. I also paid a small fine to the Thai authorities as I apparently overstayed my visa for a day there. Fair's fair and rules should be rules.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 18,435

    TGOHF said:

    Catching up with Phil Hammond's comments.

    Nasty and intemperate.

    He joins Priti Patel on the list of leadership contenders I won't be voting for.

    Come on Mr Eagles,stop being so bloody PC.

    Genghis Khan was a marauder.

    I thought the criticism over swarm was nonsense but I guess I'm taking Hammond's too literally.

    My OED says marauders are thieves and attackers of people.

    I took it he was lumping all illegal immigrants in the marauder category
    I think the word you use "illegal" covers it - all are lawbreakers.

    Have you ever driven over the speed limit ?
    If I did I wouldn't have an issue with Hammond saying I was a "speeding bullet".
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 20,243

    Just seen an interesting piece about Kids Company. The board of trustee's was / are

    Yentob (chairman);
    Richard Handover, chief executive of W H Smith
    Sunetra Atkinson, ex wife of the entertainer Rowan Atkinson, a former BBC make-up artist
    Erica Bolton (2005), an arts world PR.
    Jayne Tyler, a law firm partner who lists herself as an expert in EU law and company acquisitions
    Francesca Robinson – a recruitment firm principal.
    Andrew Webster – who has been a Trustee of the Astrozeneca Pension Fund, and worked earlier in his career as a HR manager for an engineering company.

    Not a single person with any experience of or qualifications relating to child protection.

    "Handover" seems an unfortunately apt name...
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    TGOHF said:

    Catching up with Phil Hammond's comments.

    Nasty and intemperate.

    He joins Priti Patel on the list of leadership contenders I won't be voting for.

    Come on Mr Eagles,stop being so bloody PC.

    Genghis Khan was a marauder.

    I thought the criticism over swarm was nonsense but I guess I'm taking Hammond's too literally.

    My OED says marauders are thieves and attackers of people.

    I took it he was lumping all illegal immigrants in the marauder category
    I think the word you use "illegal" covers it - all are lawbreakers.

    Many years ago I chanced to catch a few words with the Chief Counsel at IBM, when I commented that some action being discussed might be "illegal" I received a look of disapproval and he replied that "illegal is a sick bird, I think you might mean unlawful"
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 39,415
    Just the endorsement Corbyn needs...

    @campbellclaret: blog: Nice guy, good MP: but it has to be ABC – Anyone But Corbyn. Labour could be finished if he wins http://t.co/MZ9NFYWg4p
  • Catching up with Phil Hammond's comments.

    Nasty and intemperate.

    He joins Priti Patel on the list of leadership contenders I won't be voting for.

    Come on Mr Eagles,stop being so bloody PC.

    Genghis Khan was a marauder.

    I thought the criticism over swarm was nonsense but I guess I'm taking Hammond's too literally.

    My OED says marauders are thieves and attackers of people.

    I took it he was lumping all illegal immigrants in the marauder category
    But you agree with Hammonds sentiment though on mass immigration from Africa ?

    Broadly yes.

    We need immigration and we need good quality immigrants. But his tone was all wrong and did his case any good.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    :smiley:
    Indigo said:

    TGOHF said:

    Catching up with Phil Hammond's comments.

    Nasty and intemperate.

    He joins Priti Patel on the list of leadership contenders I won't be voting for.

    Come on Mr Eagles,stop being so bloody PC.

    Genghis Khan was a marauder.

    I thought the criticism over swarm was nonsense but I guess I'm taking Hammond's too literally.

    My OED says marauders are thieves and attackers of people.

    I took it he was lumping all illegal immigrants in the marauder category
    I think the word you use "illegal" covers it - all are lawbreakers.

    Many years ago I chanced to catch a few words with the Chief Counsel at IBM, when I commented that some action being discussed might be "illegal" I received a look of disapproval and he replied that "illegal is a sick bird, I think you might mean unlawful"
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    TGOHF said:

    Catching up with Phil Hammond's comments.

    Nasty and intemperate.

    He joins Priti Patel on the list of leadership contenders I won't be voting for.

    Come on Mr Eagles,stop being so bloody PC.

    Genghis Khan was a marauder.

    I thought the criticism over swarm was nonsense but I guess I'm taking Hammond's too literally.

    My OED says marauders are thieves and attackers of people.

    I took it he was lumping all illegal immigrants in the marauder category
    I think the word you use "illegal" covers it - all are lawbreakers.

    Have you ever driven over the speed limit ?
    Mr Eagles you disappoint me, you are sounding more like Clegg every day, are you really trying to equate deliberately penetrating border security, possibly whilst armed, and almost certainly whilst dangerous, without appropriate visa, and having destroyed your documentation to avoid proper and lawful processing with exceeding the speed limit ?
  • isamisam Posts: 24,352
    edited August 2015
    Exactly the tactics used by the ILEA in the 80s when the loony left were running riot... And now with the support of the 21st century 'conservatives'

    "Brussels officials have been accused of creating 'sinister propaganda' for children after producing a series of cartoons designed to teach children the virtues of the European Union.
    The pro-EU comics, games and colouring books aim to counter growing euroscepticism across the continent by explaining how Brussels spends money helping hard-up businesses, farmers and hospitals.
    The cartoons teach children about the Common Agricultural Policy, the work of the European Commission and how free movement across the continent helped erode national border controls."

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3192144/Move-Dennis-Menace-Brussels-produced-series-sinister-propaganda-cartoons-promoting-EU.html#ixzz3iPjf1HDk
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
  • Indigo said:

    TGOHF said:

    Catching up with Phil Hammond's comments.

    Nasty and intemperate.

    He joins Priti Patel on the list of leadership contenders I won't be voting for.

    Come on Mr Eagles,stop being so bloody PC.

    Genghis Khan was a marauder.

    I thought the criticism over swarm was nonsense but I guess I'm taking Hammond's too literally.

    My OED says marauders are thieves and attackers of people.

    I took it he was lumping all illegal immigrants in the marauder category
    I think the word you use "illegal" covers it - all are lawbreakers.

    Have you ever driven over the speed limit ?
    Mr Eagles you disappoint me, you are sounding more like Clegg every day, are you really trying to equate deliberately penetrating border security, possibly whilst armed, and almost certainly whilst dangerous, without appropriate visa, and having destroyed your documentation to avoid proper and lawful processing with exceeding the speed limit ?
    No
  • perdixperdix Posts: 1,806

    In relation to Ferguson protests, I notice that the likes of the BBC keep repeating "white police officer shot unarmed black teenager"...rather than criminal was shot after attempting to wrestle gun from police officer and refused arrest.

    There have been other incidents where the police have not acted properly, but an investigation of all the evidence found that in this case the officer acted properly.

    I think it is very dangerous to keep repeating half the story, as this is how it all kicked off in the first place.

    The Indy and Guardian making a big noise about it. To Lefties, police can do nothing right.

  • isamisam Posts: 24,352
    Here is a programme showing the propaganda techniques used by the likes of haringay council and other inner london Marxists in the 80s...the EU now doing the same, backed by Camerons conservatives

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 9,103
    The World at One ‏@BBCWorldatOne 10m10 minutes ago
    "I haven't got any ex-Conservatives as part of my campaign" - listen live to Liz Kendall (@leicesterliz) on #wato now http://bbc.in/1UyAzkr

    Ha Ha.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Indigo said:

    TGOHF said:

    Catching up with Phil Hammond's comments.

    Nasty and intemperate.

    He joins Priti Patel on the list of leadership contenders I won't be voting for.

    Come on Mr Eagles,stop being so bloody PC.

    Genghis Khan was a marauder.

    I thought the criticism over swarm was nonsense but I guess I'm taking Hammond's too literally.

    My OED says marauders are thieves and attackers of people.

    I took it he was lumping all illegal immigrants in the marauder category
    I think the word you use "illegal" covers it - all are lawbreakers.

    Have you ever driven over the speed limit ?
    Mr Eagles you disappoint me, you are sounding more like Clegg every day, are you really trying to equate deliberately penetrating border security, possibly whilst armed, and almost certainly whilst dangerous, without appropriate visa, and having destroyed your documentation to avoid proper and lawful processing with exceeding the speed limit ?
    No
    Fair enough, but perhaps you would then tell us what point you were trying to make with your "Have you ever driven over the speed limit ?" post.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 18,435
    TSE focussing on the words not the actions show he's joined the effete hand wringing class.

    Shame on you sir.

  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    edited August 2015

    Catching up with Phil Hammond's comments.

    Nasty and intemperate.

    He joins Priti Patel on the list of leadership contenders I won't be voting for.

    Come on Mr Eagles,stop being so bloody PC.

    Genghis Khan was a marauder.

    I thought the criticism over swarm was nonsense but I guess I'm taking Hammond's too literally.

    My OED says marauders are thieves and attackers of people.

    I took it he was lumping all illegal immigrants in the marauder category
    But you agree with Hammonds sentiment though on mass immigration from Africa ?

    Broadly yes.

    We need immigration and we need good quality immigrants. But his tone was all wrong and did his case any good.
    'Marauding' is used far more colloquially than the dictionary definition suggests. You could describe a group of lads as marauding across the town in search of a drink. I wouldn't interpret that as being Genghis Khan like. And even if you disagree, the idea that a man's intellect, experience and competence should be cast to one side because of one incorrect term used seems very strange to me. On this issue, it seems like one side in the debate is always trying to avoid discussing the actual details of an issue by constantly changing the focus to language - even blowing single utterances or single words. I suppose is it politically more beneficial to them thank talking about the sustainability of different approaches, or the ramifications for things like the rule of law or national sovereignty.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 19,990
    dr_spyn said:

    The World at One ‏@BBCWorldatOne 10m10 minutes ago
    "I haven't got any ex-Conservatives as part of my campaign" - listen live to Liz Kendall (@leicesterliz) on #wato now http://bbc.in/1UyAzkr

    Ha Ha.

    I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Miss Kendall, the abuse she's received from her own side for daring to ask some uncomfortable questions has been quite horrific. Favourite to cross the floor if and when Corbyn wins?
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 1,874
    isam said:

    Here is a programme showing the propaganda techniques used by the likes of haringay council and other inner london Marxists in the 80s...the EU now doing the same, backed by Camerons conservatives

    In the last few minutes, with the teachers protesting, there's a cracking, wonderful bit of irony.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    isam said:

    Exactly the tactics used by the ILEA in the 80s when the loony left were running riot... And now with the support of the 21st century 'conservatives'

    "Brussels officials have been accused of creating 'sinister propaganda' for children after producing a series of cartoons designed to teach children the virtues of the European Union.
    The pro-EU comics, games and colouring books aim to counter growing euroscepticism across the continent by explaining how Brussels spends money helping hard-up businesses, farmers and hospitals.
    The cartoons teach children about the Common Agricultural Policy, the work of the European Commission and how free movement across the continent helped erode national border controls."

    ''21st Century''? What's that meant to imply?
    Come off it Mr isam we know how sad and fruit loop you are already. There's no need to keep on hammering it home.

  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 1,874
    "Favourite to cross the floor if and when Corbyn wins?"

    They have all come up with this "loyal to the Labour party" nonsense.

    This is what led them to 2010 and then 2015.

  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    Just seen an interesting piece about Kids Company. The board of trustee's was / are

    Yentob (chairman);
    Richard Handover, chief executive of W H Smith
    Sunetra Atkinson, ex wife of the entertainer Rowan Atkinson, a former BBC make-up artist
    Erica Bolton (2005), an arts world PR.
    Jayne Tyler, a law firm partner who lists herself as an expert in EU law and company acquisitions
    Francesca Robinson – a recruitment firm principal.
    Andrew Webster – who has been a Trustee of the Astrozeneca Pension Fund, and worked earlier in his career as a HR manager for an engineering company.
    Not a single person with any experience of or qualifications relating to child protection.

    Why would trustees be expected to have such qualifications? They ought to have objectivity but people with qualifications ought to be actually doing the work.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    isam said:

    Exactly the tactics used by the ILEA in the 80s when the loony left were running riot... And now with the support of the 21st century 'conservatives'

    "Brussels officials have been accused of creating 'sinister propaganda' for children after producing a series of cartoons designed to teach children the virtues of the European Union.
    The pro-EU comics, games and colouring books aim to counter growing euroscepticism across the continent by explaining how Brussels spends money helping hard-up businesses, farmers and hospitals.
    The cartoons teach children about the Common Agricultural Policy, the work of the European Commission and how free movement across the continent helped erode national border controls."

    ''21st Century''? What's that meant to imply?
    Come off it Mr isam we know how sad and fruit loop you are already. There's no need to keep on hammering it home.

    Where as you would defend Mr Cameron if he ordered a slaughter of the first born, I am not sure which is worse ;)
  • isamisam Posts: 24,352
    edited August 2015

    isam said:

    Exactly the tactics used by the ILEA in the 80s when the loony left were running riot... And now with the support of the 21st century 'conservatives'

    "Brussels officials have been accused of creating 'sinister propaganda' for children after producing a series of cartoons designed to teach children the virtues of the European Union.
    The pro-EU comics, games and colouring books aim to counter growing euroscepticism across the continent by explaining how Brussels spends money helping hard-up businesses, farmers and hospitals.
    The cartoons teach children about the Common Agricultural Policy, the work of the European Commission and how free movement across the continent helped erode national border controls."

    ''21st Century''? What's that meant to imply?
    Come off it Mr isam we know how sad and fruit loop you are already. There's no need to keep on hammering it home.

    It implies that the Conservatives in the 21st Century sit happily along side big state propaganda pushers as did the 80s loony left

    Nothings changed from the comment I made about you that got me banned #cc
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    TGOHF said:

    TSE focussing on the words not the actions show he's joined the effete hand wringing class.

    Shame on you sir.

    It is probably age, Mr. Flashman (deceased). It happens to some men, I am told, they come to prefer words and pictures to action.

    P.S. I can't remember whether I have asked this before, and if I have I apologise, but where does the photo in your avatar come from?
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    Indigo said:

    The Tory system while less democratic at least means that the MPs don't get saddled with a leader they cant work with, a problem Labour is likely to discover shortly.

    TBF the Labour system had a way to prevent that as well, the MPs just had the bright idea of working around it...
    The tory system is quite democratic - one man one vote. Before that there are a series of ballots of the parliamentary party to arrive at a final two. The membership of labour and tory parties has no say in the choice put to them.
    Labour draws from the parliamentary party just the same as the tories but is even less democratic since its vote is all down to guesswork about who might be picking up these 'preferences'.
    What value is a 'preference' ? How is it democratic to be everybody's second choice but still win.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 70,028
    edited August 2015
    TGOHF said:

    TSE focussing on the words not the actions show he's joined the effete hand wringing class.

    Shame on you sir.

    I think not.

    Remember in the past week I've been told on here that as a Pro EU chaps are only Pro EU because we're being blackmailed because we're really paedos, you'll have to do a lot better than that
  • TGOHF said:

    TSE focussing on the words not the actions show he's joined the effete hand wringing class.

    Shame on you sir.

    I think not.

    Remember in the past week I've been told on here that as a Pro EU chaps are only Pro EU because we're being blackmailed because we're really paedos, you'll have to do a lot better than that
    we're what????
  • TGOHF said:

    TSE focussing on the words not the actions show he's joined the effete hand wringing class.

    Shame on you sir.

    I think not.

    Remember in the past week I've been told on here that as a Pro EU chaps are only Pro EU because we're being blackmailed because we're really paedos, you'll have to do a lot better than that
    we're what????
    Secretly paedos being blackmailed into being Pro-EU
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 19,990
    edited August 2015

    "Favourite to cross the floor if and when Corbyn wins?"

    They have all come up with this "loyal to the Labour party" nonsense.

    This is what led them to 2010 and then 2015.

    There has to be at least one MP or MEP who is thoroughly disillusioned by what's going on in their party right now, and would rather serve under Cameron than Corbyn? Extra points if they feel their seat may be under threat going into the 2020 election under the 1983 manifesto.

    One thing for absolute certain is that Mark Harper, Andrew Feldman and friends would be over the moon if they could pull off the same conference season coup that UKIP managed last year!
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 18,435
    edited August 2015

    TGOHF said:

    TSE focussing on the words not the actions show he's joined the effete hand wringing class.

    Shame on you sir.

    It is probably age, Mr. Flashman (deceased). It happens to some men, I am told, they come to prefer words and pictures to action.

    P.S. I can't remember whether I have asked this before, and if I have I apologise, but where does the photo in your avatar come from?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/booknews/10836577/Dominic-West-its-time-for-a-new-Flashman-film.html

    "Dominic West has called for the “spectacularly politically incorrect” Flashman novels to be given the Hollywood film treatment and introduced to a new generation of readers. "

    No doubt TSE would disagree - just in case someone took offence.
  • isamisam Posts: 24,352

    TGOHF said:

    TSE focussing on the words not the actions show he's joined the effete hand wringing class.

    Shame on you sir.

    I think not.

    Remember in the past week I've been told on here that as a Pro EU chaps are only Pro EU because we're being blackmailed because we're really paedos, you'll have to do a lot better than that
    we're what????
    No one actually said that, but its a distraction I guess
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    TGOHF said:

    TSE focussing on the words not the actions show he's joined the effete hand wringing class.

    Shame on you sir.

    I think not.

    Remember in the past week I've been told on here that as a Pro EU chaps are only Pro EU because we're being blackmailed because we're really paedo, you'll have to do a lot better than that
    I suspect pro or anti EU will soon become beside the point in any case. The freedom of movement is doomed with the vast illegal immigration from Africa, because if the ECHR wont let countries throw people out, populations are going to elect progressively less pleasant governments until they let a lot less people in.

    The financial problems that gave us Greece this year, will inevitably give us a bigger fish that we cant brush under the table, and the euro will crumble. None of these problems will be addressed pre-emptively because it means changing the founding principles of the EU, and with the EU being increasing run by committee, with all the problems that entails, the countries are not going to agree on the solutions until it is too late.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,080

    TGOHF said:

    TSE focussing on the words not the actions show he's joined the effete hand wringing class.

    Shame on you sir.

    I think not.

    Remember in the past week I've been told on here that as a Pro EU chaps are only Pro EU because we're being blackmailed because we're really paedos, you'll have to do a lot better than that
    LOL

    you've also been told you're hung like a bull giraffe, but I don't think any of us are taking either accusation seriously.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 2,805
    Under AV, if your preferred candidate is not very popular, it is sometimes better in a small set of cases to abstain, which is equivalent to casting a blank vote.

    Under plurality (FPTP), if your preferred candidate is not very popular, it is ALWAYS better to vote tactically (given uncertainty).

    In so far as there is a reason to reject AV, it's not the incentive to abstain in a small set of cases. It would be that it seems to under-represent small parties even worse than plurality.
  • TGOHF said:

    TSE focussing on the words not the actions show he's joined the effete hand wringing class.

    Shame on you sir.

    I think not.

    Remember in the past week I've been told on here that as a Pro EU chaps are only Pro EU because we're being blackmailed because we're really paedos, you'll have to do a lot better than that
    LOL

    you've also been told you're hung like a bull giraffe, but I don't think any of us are taking either accusation seriously.
    Let's not go there. I get self conscious with it only being 4 inches, wide.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 20,761

    Just seen an interesting piece about Kids Company. The board of trustee's was / are

    Yentob (chairman);
    Richard Handover, chief executive of W H Smith
    Sunetra Atkinson, ex wife of the entertainer Rowan Atkinson, a former BBC make-up artist
    Erica Bolton (2005), an arts world PR.
    Jayne Tyler, a law firm partner who lists herself as an expert in EU law and company acquisitions
    Francesca Robinson – a recruitment firm principal.
    Andrew Webster – who has been a Trustee of the Astrozeneca Pension Fund, and worked earlier in his career as a HR manager for an engineering company.
    Not a single person with any experience of or qualifications relating to child protection.

    Why would trustees be expected to have such qualifications? They ought to have objectivity but people with qualifications ought to be actually doing the work.
    Useful to have someone with experience so they can know when the executive is bullshitting them, though.
  • TGOHF said:

    TSE focussing on the words not the actions show he's joined the effete hand wringing class.

    Shame on you sir.

    I think not.

    Remember in the past week I've been told on here that as a Pro EU chaps are only Pro EU because we're being blackmailed because we're really paedos, you'll have to do a lot better than that
    we're what????
    Secretly paedos being blackmailed into being Pro-EU
    oh right, fair enough.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,080
    edited August 2015

    TGOHF said:

    TSE focussing on the words not the actions show he's joined the effete hand wringing class.

    Shame on you sir.

    I think not.

    Remember in the past week I've been told on here that as a Pro EU chaps are only Pro EU because we're being blackmailed because we're really paedos, you'll have to do a lot better than that
    LOL

    you've also been told you're hung like a bull giraffe, but I don't think any of us are taking either accusation seriously.
    Let's not go there. I get self conscious with it only being 4 inches, wide.
    we should celebrate your chode not condemn it
  • Oh Field Marshal, here's a wonderful anecdote about Osborne that's going to make you recant all those bad things said about him in the past.

    @IsabelHardman: What does George Osborne think of the insult ‘professional politician’? http://t.co/vRgBOCW5yD http://t.co/PevbZYP9Qx
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 1,874
    Sandpit said:

    "Favourite to cross the floor if and when Corbyn wins?"

    They have all come up with this "loyal to the Labour party" nonsense.

    This is what led them to 2010 and then 2015.

    There has to be at least one MP or MEP who is thoroughly disillusioned by what's going on in their party right now, and would rather serve under Cameron than Corbyn? Extra points if they feel their seat may be under threat going into the 2020 election under the 1983 manifesto.
    You'd think so, but one gets the feeling that they are, indeed, that unthinkingly partisan.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 496
    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:

    The World at One ‏@BBCWorldatOne 10m10 minutes ago
    "I haven't got any ex-Conservatives as part of my campaign" - listen live to Liz Kendall (@leicesterliz) on #wato now http://bbc.in/1UyAzkr

    Ha Ha.

    I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Miss Kendall, the abuse she's received from her own side for daring to ask some uncomfortable questions has been quite horrific. Favourite to cross the floor if and when Corbyn wins?
    Before you start to feel sorry for her This from today's Guardian "Liz Kendall wrapped up the 22nd hustings of the Labour leadership race in Canary Wharf, strode into the lift and held her head in her hands. Speaking to the Operation Black Vote audience, she had plunged herself into hot water by declaring that the plight of the white working class was a key priority."

    New Labour becomes UKIP Lite?
  • TGOHF said:

    TSE focussing on the words not the actions show he's joined the effete hand wringing class.

    Shame on you sir.

    I think not.

    Remember in the past week I've been told on here that as a Pro EU chaps are only Pro EU because we're being blackmailed because we're really paedos, you'll have to do a lot better than that
    we're what????
    Secretly paedos being blackmailed into being Pro-EU
    oh right, fair enough.
    How am I doing in the fantasy football? Better than you ?
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Exactly the tactics used by the ILEA in the 80s when the loony left were running riot... And now with the support of the 21st century 'conservatives'

    "Brussels officials have been accused of creating 'sinister propaganda' for children after producing a series of cartoons designed to teach children the virtues of the European Union.
    The pro-EU comics, games and colouring books aim to counter growing euroscepticism across the continent by explaining how Brussels spends money helping hard-up businesses, farmers and hospitals.
    The cartoons teach children about the Common Agricultural Policy, the work of the European Commission and how free movement across the continent helped erode national border controls."

    ''21st Century''? What's that meant to imply?
    Come off it Mr isam we know how sad and fruit loop you are already. There's no need to keep on hammering it home.

    It implies that the Conservatives in the 21st Century sit happily along side big state propaganda pushers as did the 80s loony left

    Nothings changed from the comment I made about you that got me banned #cc
    Nothings changed about my opinion of you. Your current rabbitings confirm them. Sadly we have to put up with them.

    Where do the conservatives side with big state propaganda - or indeed the EU? Only today Cameron reiterated he wants to make it easier for national parliaments to ignore EU rulings.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33656157
    Yeah really big state....

    I'll take Lynton's advice
    ''UKIP has no future, says Tory election strategist''
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33819624
    ''You should never write anyone off but they will be a voice of discontent. They are very reliant on the performance of their leader Nigel Farage and even he couldn't win a seat.''

    BTW one and all - Crosby goes on to say how there was no late swing in the election campaign and how they picked up weakness in Labour very early.
    "The first time we picked this up was in November 2014 when in discussions in focus groups, people said 'Ed Miliband is a very weak man and if the SNP do very well and if he relies on them to govern, they will push him around'.''
    The result of this was the 'Ed in Salmond's Pocket' poster at the start of the campaign and it was plain sailing from then on. An amazingly well focussed election campaign.




  • isamisam Posts: 24,352

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Exactly the tactics used by the ILEA in the 80s when the loony left were running riot... And now with the support of the 21st century 'conservatives'

    "Brussels officials have been accused of creating 'sinister propaganda' for children after producing a series of cartoons designed to teach children the virtues of the European Union.
    The pro-EU comics, games and colouring books aim to counter growing euroscepticism across the continent by explaining how Brussels spends money helping hard-up businesses, farmers and hospitals.
    The cartoons teach children about the Common Agricultural Policy, the work of the European Commission and how free movement across the continent helped erode national border controls."

    ''21st Century''? What's that meant to imply?
    Come off it Mr isam we know how sad and fruit loop you are already. There's no need to keep on hammering it home.

    It implies that the Conservatives in the 21st Century sit happily along side big state propaganda pushers as did the 80s loony left

    Nothings changed from the comment I made about you that got me banned #cc
    Nothings changed about my opinion of you. Your current rabbitings confirm them. Sadly we have to put up with them.

    Where do the conservatives side with big state propaganda - or indeed the EU? Only today Cameron reiterated he wants to make it easier for national parliaments to ignore EU rulings.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33656157
    Yeah really big state....

    I'll take Lynton's advice
    ''UKIP has no future, says Tory election strategist''
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33819624
    ''You should never write anyone off but they will be a voice of discontent. They are very reliant on the performance of their leader Nigel Farage and even he couldn't win a seat.''

    BTW one and all - Crosby goes on to say how there was no late swing in the election campaign and how they picked up weakness in Labour very early.
    "The first time we picked this up was in November 2014 when in discussions in focus groups, people said 'Ed Miliband is a very weak man and if the SNP do very well and if he relies on them to govern, they will push him around'.''
    The result of this was the 'Ed in Salmond's Pocket' poster at the start of the campaign and it was plain sailing from then on. An amazingly well focussed election campaign.


    Do you think David Cameron and George Osborne will campaign to stay in or leave the EU?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,080

    Oh Field Marshal, here's a wonderful anecdote about Osborne that's going to make you recant all those bad things said about him in the past.

    @IsabelHardman: What does George Osborne think of the insult ‘professional politician’? http://t.co/vRgBOCW5yD http://t.co/PevbZYP9Qx

    doesn't apply TSE

    professionals are meant to be good at what they do.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 18,435
    ON TOPIC

    Labour have confirmed they wont be publishing results breakdown - does that put punters at a disadvantage for the next contest in 2 years time ?
  • TGOHF said:

    TSE focussing on the words not the actions show he's joined the effete hand wringing class.

    Shame on you sir.

    I think not.

    Remember in the past week I've been told on here that as a Pro EU chaps are only Pro EU because we're being blackmailed because we're really paedos, you'll have to do a lot better than that
    we're what????
    Secretly paedos being blackmailed into being Pro-EU
    oh right, fair enough.
    How am I doing in the fantasy football? Better than you ?
    well it all depends how you judge it... yes currently I'll admit you are a smidge higher in the table than me but on the 'number of days' bottom of the league - it's 1-0 against you....

  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Icarus said:

    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:

    The World at One ‏@BBCWorldatOne 10m10 minutes ago
    "I haven't got any ex-Conservatives as part of my campaign" - listen live to Liz Kendall (@leicesterliz) on #wato now http://bbc.in/1UyAzkr

    Ha Ha.

    I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Miss Kendall, the abuse she's received from her own side for daring to ask some uncomfortable questions has been quite horrific. Favourite to cross the floor if and when Corbyn wins?
    Before you start to feel sorry for her This from today's Guardian "Liz Kendall wrapped up the 22nd hustings of the Labour leadership race in Canary Wharf, strode into the lift and held her head in her hands. Speaking to the Operation Black Vote audience, she had plunged herself into hot water by declaring that the plight of the white working class was a key priority."

    New Labour becomes UKIP Lite?
    Being concerned about disadvantaged white people makes you UKIP-lite?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 20,243

    TGOHF said:

    TSE focussing on the words not the actions show he's joined the effete hand wringing class.

    Shame on you sir.

    I think not.

    Remember in the past week I've been told on here that as a Pro EU chaps are only Pro EU because we're being blackmailed because we're really paedos, you'll have to do a lot better than that
    LOL

    you've also been told you're hung like a bull giraffe, but I don't think any of us are taking either accusation seriously.
    He's certainly got the neck for it....
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 11,180

    antifrank said:

    One regularly observes that politicians find that rules that they have to comply with can be very onerous. Astonishingly, none of them ever draw the conclusion that perhaps some of the rules need to be simplified or repealed, or even that they should not be added to in a hurry.

    I have written to Baroness Altmann, copy to Sajid Javid & Charles Counsell (at the Pensions Regulator), regarding the nonsense of small companies having to set up autoenrolment pension schemes which will never have any members.

    We shall see whether the government will really does want to get rid of lunatic red tape, as you couldn't find a better example or one which could be so easily sorted out with zero downside.

    I'm not holding my breath..
    Not an area in which I've great expertise, but a low-key state-backed scheme which companies could opt for if they didn't want to bother might be a sensible use of public intervention in this case? There wouldn't be any need to market it for the general market - they could just put out to tender a request for private companies to bid to be the default option, with regulation to ensure that this remained competitive. Where no employees at all were likely to take it up in practice, the company wouldn't care, and where there were only a handful, it would save worrying about it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 23,684
    @isam

    I was at a dinner party in South London (Balham) at the weekend, and the subject turned to the EU, as it does.

    Of the ten people at the dinner table, it was split roughly 50:50 stay and go.

    However, what was interesting - and challenging - was that what the "Outters" wanted fell into two very distinct camps. One was a left wing out (more regulation, stop companies from exploiting workers, EU just a front for business), and the other was a right wing out (less regulation).

    As an aside: the only winning (i.e. garnering a clear majority of the people at the table) option was EFTA/EEA with freedom of labour. That satisfied the pro-EU people, and most of the right wing outers.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 496
    TGOHF said:

    ON TOPIC

    Labour have confirmed they wont be publishing results breakdown - does that put punters at a disadvantage for the next contest in 2 years time ?

    from the Labour party election procedures:

    33. As soon as possible after the announcement of the result a full breakdown detailing the preferences cast by MPs and MEPs will be published.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    The EU spending taxpayer money on Soviet-style children's propaganda about the Common Agricultural Policy is particularly galling. Is this sort of thing common on the continent. The whole organisation needs root and branch reform. It will just get worse and worse otherwise.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 11,180
    On topic, I suspect that Corbyn and Kendall supporters may often not give further preferences, even though they will in reality feel a preference - i'm surprised how often I talk to AV voters who say they won't lower themselves to distinguishing between lesser preferences.

    The long-term ihterest of the party is probably better served by Corbyn winning than by someone else squeaking home by 51% thanks to umpteen second and third preferences. If Corbyn wins we can test out the theory that it will bring in a huge wave of enthusiasm (at the least it should mop up many of the Greens, since the Green Party is so heavily anti-austerity rather than just environmental), and if it goes heavily the other way I think he'd call it a day, whereas if he is pipped at the post by transfers it'll be difficult to lead the party effectively.
  • TGOHF said:

    TSE focussing on the words not the actions show he's joined the effete hand wringing class.

    Shame on you sir.

    I think not.

    Remember in the past week I've been told on here that as a Pro EU chaps are only Pro EU because we're being blackmailed because we're really paedos, you'll have to do a lot better than that
    we're what????
    Secretly paedos being blackmailed into being Pro-EU
    oh right, fair enough.
    How am I doing in the fantasy football? Better than you ?
    well it all depends how you judge it... yes currently I'll admit you are a smidge higher in the table than me but on the 'number of days' bottom of the league - it's 1-0 against you....

    Only because most of my team were playing Sunday and Monday.
  • William_HWilliam_H Posts: 346
    TGOHF said:

    ON TOPIC

    Labour have confirmed they wont be publishing results breakdown - does that put punters at a disadvantage for the next contest in 2 years time ?

    The rules will probably be different anyway
  • MattWMattW Posts: 1,993
    Charles said:

    Just seen an interesting piece about Kids Company. The board of trustee's was / are

    Yentob (chairman);
    Richard Handover, chief executive of W H Smith
    Sunetra Atkinson, ex wife of the entertainer Rowan Atkinson, a former BBC make-up artist
    Erica Bolton (2005), an arts world PR.
    Jayne Tyler, a law firm partner who lists herself as an expert in EU law and company acquisitions
    Francesca Robinson – a recruitment firm principal.
    Andrew Webster – who has been a Trustee of the Astrozeneca Pension Fund, and worked earlier in his career as a HR manager for an engineering company.
    Not a single person with any experience of or qualifications relating to child protection.

    Why would trustees be expected to have such qualifications? They ought to have objectivity but people with qualifications ought to be actually doing the work.
    Useful to have someone with experience so they can know when the executive is bullshitting them, though.
    Mr Yentob has the relevant experience of running an organisation with child protection "issues"...

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 23,684
    JEO said:

    The EU spending taxpayer money on Soviet-style children's propaganda about the Common Agricultural Policy is particularly galling. Is this sort of thing common on the continent. The whole organisation needs root and branch reform. It will just get worse and worse otherwise.

    That's a terrible slur.

    At least the soviet stuff has artistic merit.
  • isamisam Posts: 24,352
    JEO said:

    Icarus said:

    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:

    The World at One ‏@BBCWorldatOne 10m10 minutes ago
    "I haven't got any ex-Conservatives as part of my campaign" - listen live to Liz Kendall (@leicesterliz) on #wato now http://bbc.in/1UyAzkr

    Ha Ha.

    I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Miss Kendall, the abuse she's received from her own side for daring to ask some uncomfortable questions has been quite horrific. Favourite to cross the floor if and when Corbyn wins?
    Before you start to feel sorry for her This from today's Guardian "Liz Kendall wrapped up the 22nd hustings of the Labour leadership race in Canary Wharf, strode into the lift and held her head in her hands. Speaking to the Operation Black Vote audience, she had plunged herself into hot water by declaring that the plight of the white working class was a key priority."

    New Labour becomes UKIP Lite?
    Being concerned about disadvantaged white people makes you UKIP-lite?
    English people should be treated the same by our government, I don't get why politicians talking of equality even entertain ideas of using skin colour to favour one group over another.

    The term white working class should be dropped really... its just working class.. the reason there are few non white people in top establishment jobs is the same there are no white working class people in those jobs - class not skin colour

    If there was a points based system for immigration, meaning only very highly qualified immigrants with well paid jobs lined up were allowed in, then there would have been more immigrants in top establishment jobs by now

    Very few people who were living in council houses in the 50s and 60s have grandchildren who are MPs, judges etc now. It doesn't matter if they were black or white or immigrants or not.. most non white peoples grandparents were in that situation hence we get quotas from left wingers who are missing the point
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,698

    On topic, I suspect that Corbyn and Kendall supporters may often not give further preferences, even though they will in reality feel a preference - i'm surprised how often I talk to AV voters who say they won't lower themselves to distinguishing between lesser preferences.

    The long-term ihterest of the party is probably better served by Corbyn winning than by someone else squeaking home by 51% thanks to umpteen second and third preferences. If Corbyn wins we can test out the theory that it will bring in a huge wave of enthusiasm (at the least it should mop up many of the Greens, since the Green Party is so heavily anti-austerity rather than just environmental), and if it goes heavily the other way I think he'd call it a day, whereas if he is pipped at the post by transfers it'll be difficult to lead the party effectively.

    Do you think that the non-Corbynites would be more loyal to Jeremy Corbyn than the Corbynites would be to ABC?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 20,761

    antifrank said:

    One regularly observes that politicians find that rules that they have to comply with can be very onerous. Astonishingly, none of them ever draw the conclusion that perhaps some of the rules need to be simplified or repealed, or even that they should not be added to in a hurry.

    I have written to Baroness Altmann, copy to Sajid Javid & Charles Counsell (at the Pensions Regulator), regarding the nonsense of small companies having to set up autoenrolment pension schemes which will never have any members.

    We shall see whether the government will really does want to get rid of lunatic red tape, as you couldn't find a better example or one which could be so easily sorted out with zero downside.

    I'm not holding my breath..
    Not an area in which I've great expertise, but a low-key state-backed scheme which companies could opt for if they didn't want to bother might be a sensible use of public intervention in this case? There wouldn't be any need to market it for the general market - they could just put out to tender a request for private companies to bid to be the default option, with regulation to ensure that this remained competitive. Where no employees at all were likely to take it up in practice, the company wouldn't care, and where there were only a handful, it would save worrying about it.
    I thought that already existed? There are certainly default options that exist.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    rcs1000 said:

    @isam

    I was at a dinner party in South London (Balham) at the weekend, and the subject turned to the EU, as it does.

    Of the ten people at the dinner table, it was split roughly 50:50 stay and go.

    However, what was interesting - and challenging - was that what the "Outters" wanted fell into two very distinct camps. One was a left wing out (more regulation, stop companies from exploiting workers, EU just a front for business), and the other was a right wing out (less regulation).

    As an aside: the only winning (i.e. garnering a clear majority of the people at the table) option was EFTA/EEA with freedom of labour. That satisfied the pro-EU people, and most of the right wing outers.

    On the other hand, I was seeing some family friends in Hertfordshire on Saturday. Moderate conservatives in their 40s and 50s, who were mildly pro-EU membership and benefitted a lot from weekend breaks to the continent. Most criticisms of the EU they agreed with in a resigned manner, but the one issue that really animated them was immigration. "I'm sorry but we just can't take many more people', 'this island is full up', 'London feels like a foreign city these days' were some of the widely agreed with comments.

    If the Out side to win it will be on a platform of controlled immigration, tailored regulation for the UK (to straddle the left and right wing), anti-crony capitalism (with agrobusinesses front and centre), reducing food costs, and closer trading links with the rest of the world.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 20,243
    William_H said:

    TGOHF said:

    ON TOPIC

    Labour have confirmed they wont be publishing results breakdown - does that put punters at a disadvantage for the next contest in 2 years time ?

    The rules will probably be different anyway
    After this shambles, they will probably give up on elections next time.

    Plus they may have so few people anyway, it will be whoever gets "dobbed in"....
  • I tend to agree with Nick. I think it's quite possible for Yvette to nick it in the end from 3rd place in the first round. But being the 3rd choice candidate of most members isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. I hope that whoever gets it finishes in the top 2 on the round 1 of voting. Yvette could still be in the top 2 on round one. I think it'll be tight between her and Andy for 2nd place in first preferences.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 23,684
    isam said:

    JEO said:

    Icarus said:

    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:

    The World at One ‏@BBCWorldatOne 10m10 minutes ago
    "I haven't got any ex-Conservatives as part of my campaign" - listen live to Liz Kendall (@leicesterliz) on #wato now http://bbc.in/1UyAzkr

    Ha Ha.

    I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Miss Kendall, the abuse she's received from her own side for daring to ask some uncomfortable questions has been quite horrific. Favourite to cross the floor if and when Corbyn wins?
    Before you start to feel sorry for her This from today's Guardian "Liz Kendall wrapped up the 22nd hustings of the Labour leadership race in Canary Wharf, strode into the lift and held her head in her hands. Speaking to the Operation Black Vote audience, she had plunged herself into hot water by declaring that the plight of the white working class was a key priority."

    New Labour becomes UKIP Lite?
    Being concerned about disadvantaged white people makes you UKIP-lite?
    English people should be treated the same by our government, I don't get why politicians talking of equality even entertain ideas of using skin colour to favour one group over another.

    The term white working class should be dropped really... its just working class.. the reason there are few non white people in top establishment jobs is the same there are no white working class people in those jobs - class not skin colour

    If there was a points based system for immigration, meaning only very highly qualified immigrants with well paid jobs lined up were allowed in, then there would have been more immigrants in top establishment jobs by now

    Very few people who were living in council houses in the 50s and 60s have grandchildren who are MPs, judges etc now. It doesn't matter if they were black or white or immigrants or not.. most non white peoples grandparents were in that situation hence we get quotas from left wingers who are missing the point
    I think this is an enormously insightful comment.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 23,684
    JEO said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @isam

    I was at a dinner party in South London (Balham) at the weekend, and the subject turned to the EU, as it does.

    Of the ten people at the dinner table, it was split roughly 50:50 stay and go.

    However, what was interesting - and challenging - was that what the "Outters" wanted fell into two very distinct camps. One was a left wing out (more regulation, stop companies from exploiting workers, EU just a front for business), and the other was a right wing out (less regulation).

    As an aside: the only winning (i.e. garnering a clear majority of the people at the table) option was EFTA/EEA with freedom of labour. That satisfied the pro-EU people, and most of the right wing outers.

    On the other hand, I was seeing some family friends in Hertfordshire on Saturday. Moderate conservatives in their 40s and 50s, who were mildly pro-EU membership and benefitted a lot from weekend breaks to the continent. Most criticisms of the EU they agreed with in a resigned manner, but the one issue that really animated them was immigration. "I'm sorry but we just can't take many more people', 'this island is full up', 'London feels like a foreign city these days' were some of the widely agreed with comments.

    If the Out side to win it will be on a platform of controlled immigration, tailored regulation for the UK (to straddle the left and right wing), anti-crony capitalism (with agrobusinesses front and centre), reducing food costs, and closer trading links with the rest of the world.
    Don't forget that leaving the EU, but staying in EFTA/EEA, means no benefits for non citizens, no free healthcare, and the ability to restrict residence to those who are paying tax.

    That would dramatically cut low skilled immigration, without imposing the burden of beauraracy on firms.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 39,415
    @politicshome: Barry Sheerman becomes the third Labour MP to call for the leadership contest to be suspended. http://t.co/pjXEmHGVIn http://t.co/ywlhSWAFwj
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 20,243
    Sandpit said:

    "Favourite to cross the floor if and when Corbyn wins?"

    They have all come up with this "loyal to the Labour party" nonsense.

    This is what led them to 2010 and then 2015.

    There has to be at least one MP or MEP who is thoroughly disillusioned by what's going on in their party right now, and would rather serve under Cameron than Corbyn? Extra points if they feel their seat may be under threat going into the 2020 election under the 1983 manifesto.

    One thing for absolute certain is that Mark Harper, Andrew Feldman and friends would be over the moon if they could pull off the same conference season coup that UKIP managed last year!
    Gisela Stuart?

    "In October 2004, she became the only Labour MP who openly supported the re-election of George W. Bush in that year's US presidential election, arguing "you know where you stand with George and, in today's world, that's much better than rudderless leaders who drift with the prevailing wind."
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 19,656
    I see the Tories leader in Scotland has had to scuttle Eastwards to get listed under Edinburgh instead of Glasgow to ensure she has a chance of a list seat next year.
    Things are looking bad for the SNP ........

    TNS Scotland poll - constituency vote:
    SNP 62% (+2%)
    LAB 20% (NC)
    CON 12% (-2%)
    LDEM 3% (-2%)
  • isamisam Posts: 24,352
    rcs1000 said:

    isam said:

    JEO said:

    Icarus said:

    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:

    The World at One ‏@BBCWorldatOne 10m10 minutes ago
    "I haven't got any ex-Conservatives as part of my campaign" - listen live to Liz Kendall (@leicesterliz) on #wato now http://bbc.in/1UyAzkr

    Ha Ha.

    I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Miss Kendall, the abuse she's received from her own side for daring to ask some uncomfortable questions has been quite horrific. Favourite to cross the floor if and when Corbyn wins?
    Before you start to feel sorry for her This from today's Guardian "Liz Kendall wrapped up the 22nd hustings of the Labour leadership race in Canary Wharf, strode into the lift and held her head in her hands. Speaking to the Operation Black Vote audience, she had plunged herself into hot water by declaring that the plight of the white working class was a key priority."

    New Labour becomes UKIP Lite?
    Being concerned about disadvantaged white people makes you UKIP-lite?
    English people should be treated the same by our government, I don't get why politicians talking of equality even entertain ideas of using skin colour to favour one group over another.

    The term white working class should be dropped really... its just working class.. the reason there are few non white people in top establishment jobs is the same there are no white working class people in those jobs - class not skin colour

    If there was a points based system for immigration, meaning only very highly qualified immigrants with well paid jobs lined up were allowed in, then there would have been more immigrants in top establishment jobs by now

    Very few people who were living in council houses in the 50s and 60s have grandchildren who are MPs, judges etc now. It doesn't matter if they were black or white or immigrants or not.. most non white peoples grandparents were in that situation hence we get quotas from left wingers who are missing the point
    I think this is an enormously insightful comment.
    Thanks!
  • agingjbagingjb Posts: 71
    edited August 2015
    Do we really have to point out that in the case of a candidate getting every second preference, they would get no first preferences, would be eliminated, and those second preferences would play no further part in the election.

    I can think of objections to AV, but I do hope that wilful misunderstanding is not the basis for those objections.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 19,990
    rcs1000 said:

    JEO said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @isam

    I was at a dinner party in South London (Balham) at the weekend, and the subject turned to the EU, as it does.

    Of the ten people at the dinner table, it was split roughly 50:50 stay and go.

    However, what was interesting - and challenging - was that what the "Outters" wanted fell into two very distinct camps. One was a left wing out (more regulation, stop companies from exploiting workers, EU just a front for business), and the other was a right wing out (less regulation).

    As an aside: the only winning (i.e. garnering a clear majority of the people at the table) option was EFTA/EEA with freedom of labour. That satisfied the pro-EU people, and most of the right wing outers.

    On the other hand, I was seeing some family friends in Hertfordshire on Saturday. Moderate conservatives in their 40s and 50s, who were mildly pro-EU membership and benefitted a lot from weekend breaks to the continent. Most criticisms of the EU they agreed with in a resigned manner, but the one issue that really animated them was immigration. "I'm sorry but we just can't take many more people', 'this island is full up', 'London feels like a foreign city these days' were some of the widely agreed with comments.

    If the Out side to win it will be on a platform of controlled immigration, tailored regulation for the UK (to straddle the left and right wing), anti-crony capitalism (with agrobusinesses front and centre), reducing food costs, and closer trading links with the rest of the world.
    Don't forget that leaving the EU, but staying in EFTA/EEA, means no benefits for non citizens, no free healthcare, and the ability to restrict residence to those who are paying tax.

    That would dramatically cut low skilled immigration, without imposing the burden of beauraracy on firms.
    It's the difference between the free movement of people, and the free movement of labour.

    We would also be able to assess deport back to France anyone coming to Dover who wasn't claiming asylum from the French.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    rcs1000,

    Would it really cut low skilled immigration that much? Don't most Poles and Romanians in the UK work and pay tax?
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited August 2015
    Scott_P said:

    @politicshome: Barry Sheerman becomes the third Labour MP to call for the leadership contest to be suspended. http://t.co/pjXEmHGVIn http://t.co/ywlhSWAFwj

    By suspended I take it he means scrapped altogether – Guess he didn’t nominate JC then?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 11,180

    I tend to agree with Nick. I think it's quite possible for Yvette to nick it in the end from 3rd place in the first round. But being the 3rd choice candidate of most members isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. I hope that whoever gets it finishes in the top 2 on the round 1 of voting. Yvette could still be in the top 2 on round one. I think it'll be tight between her and Andy for 2nd place in first preferences.

    I think you're right.
    antifrank said:



    Do you think that the non-Corbynites would be more loyal to Jeremy Corbyn than the Corbynites would be to ABC?

    If Corbyn wins, he's promised more open-minded policy-making, with less emphasis on whipping what the leader currently thinks, which will probably mean that anti-orbyn MPs will revolt on this and that but fight in the trenches over policy. If he loses, his supporters among MPs will shrug and carry on as before, but I'd think that many of the new recruits might be disappointed enough to leave.

  • calumcalum Posts: 3,045
    malcolmg said:

    I see the Tories leader in Scotland has had to scuttle Eastwards to get listed under Edinburgh instead of Glasgow to ensure she has a chance of a list seat next year.
    Things are looking bad for the SNP ........

    TNS Scotland poll - constituency vote:
    SNP 62% (+2%)
    LAB 20% (NC)
    CON 12% (-2%)
    LDEM 3% (-2%)

    Although it's just a sub-sample the Lothian regional list split is looking very tight, the Tories are lying in 4th with 13% - Labour and the Greens tied on 16%. Ruth needs to ensure she's 1st on the Lothian list to be sure of a seat.
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    edited August 2015
    agingjb said:

    Do we really have to point out that in the case of a candidate getting every second preference, they would get no first preferences, would be eliminated, and those second preferences would play no further part in the election.

    I can think of objections to AV, but I do hope that wilful misunderstanding is not the basis for those objections.

    Misunderstanding, wilful or otherwise, is the number one PB Tory activity, just ahead of virtue signalling.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 47,063
    edited August 2015
    http://order-order.com/page/13/#:ylDWtmf7k3ZZGA Hmm Wonder if Guido has sorted his betting position since then.

    The fair value of that lot would be very underwater right now.

    "On on the other hand, believing that the majority of the Labour rank and file have not gone mad and that peak Corbyn will pass, Guido has been laying him on Betfair. If you really think Corbyn can do it, Guido is happy to take your money…"
  • notmenotme Posts: 2,996

    Catching up with Phil Hammond's comments.

    Nasty and intemperate.

    He joins Priti Patel on the list of leadership contenders I won't be voting for.

    Come on Mr Eagles,stop being so bloody PC.

    Genghis Khan was a marauder.

    I thought the criticism over swarm was nonsense but I guess I'm taking Hammond's too literally.

    My OED says marauders are thieves and attackers of people.

    I took it he was lumping all illegal immigrants in the marauder category
    But you agree with Hammonds sentiment though on mass immigration from Africa ?

    Broadly yes.

    We need immigration and we need good quality immigrants. But his tone was all wrong and did his case any good.
    As a rule we dont get those good ones from africa, pakistan, bangladesh, romania or Albania.
  • notmenotme Posts: 2,996
    JEO said:

    rcs1000,

    Would it really cut low skilled immigration that much? Don't most Poles and Romanians in the UK work and pay tax?

    They need to earn above £30k before they become a net contributor. How many poles and romanians do you think are earning over that?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 34,639
    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:

    The World at One ‏@BBCWorldatOne 10m10 minutes ago
    "I haven't got any ex-Conservatives as part of my campaign" - listen live to Liz Kendall (@leicesterliz) on #wato now http://bbc.in/1UyAzkr

    Ha Ha.

    I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Miss Kendall, the abuse she's received from her own side for daring to ask some uncomfortable questions has been quite horrific. Favourite to cross the floor if and when Corbyn wins?
    Surely not - quite apart from anything else, and the abililty of tribal supporters to remain supporters even if the ruling clique are far removed from themselves, as Corbyn himself shows, Corbyn is not expected to last the distance even if he wins, so she's well placed for a fresh run, or behind Umunna, in a few years if the Left does indeed implode. If they don't though...

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 34,639
    JWisemann said:

    agingjb said:

    Do we really have to point out that in the case of a candidate getting every second preference, they would get no first preferences, would be eliminated, and those second preferences would play no further part in the election.

    I can think of objections to AV, but I do hope that wilful misunderstanding is not the basis for those objections.

    Misunderstanding, wilful or otherwise, is the number one PB Tory activity, just ahead of virtue signalling.
    Pb Tories got some things right. They understood ed m and his impact a lot better than I did for starters.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 47,063
    notme said:

    JEO said:

    rcs1000,

    Would it really cut low skilled immigration that much? Don't most Poles and Romanians in the UK work and pay tax?

    They need to earn above £30k before they become a net contributor. How many poles and romanians do you think are earning over that?
    Are you sure that £30k figure is accurate as the marginal figure for an average EU immigrant ? If that is the mean of the UK as a whole then I'd have thought the figure for someone who will spend their whole life mainly here would be higher than an EU immigrant, as the young Pole won't need the NHS and won't be in receipt of a state pension at 65+ ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 47,063
    notme said:

    JEO said:

    rcs1000,

    Would it really cut low skilled immigration that much? Don't most Poles and Romanians in the UK work and pay tax?

    They need to earn above £30k before they become a net contributor. How many poles and romanians do you think are earning over that?
    Are you sure that £30k figure is accurate as the marginal figure for an average EU immigrant ? If that is the mean of the UK as a whole then I'd have thought the figure for someone who will spend their whole life mainly here would be higher than an EU immigrant, as the young Pole won't need the NHS and won't be in receipt of a state pension at 65+ ?
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    JWisemann said:

    agingjb said:

    Do we really have to point out that in the case of a candidate getting every second preference, they would get no first preferences, would be eliminated, and those second preferences would play no further part in the election.

    I can think of objections to AV, but I do hope that wilful misunderstanding is not the basis for those objections.

    Misunderstanding, wilful or otherwise, is the number one PB Tory activity, just ahead of virtue signalling.
    Just like Ad Hominem attacks and Strawman arguments are the top two activities for PB Leftoids...
    ;-)
  • kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:

    The World at One ‏@BBCWorldatOne 10m10 minutes ago
    "I haven't got any ex-Conservatives as part of my campaign" - listen live to Liz Kendall (@leicesterliz) on #wato now http://bbc.in/1UyAzkr

    Ha Ha.

    I'm actually starting to feel sorry for Miss Kendall, the abuse she's received from her own side for daring to ask some uncomfortable questions has been quite horrific. Favourite to cross the floor if and when Corbyn wins?
    Surely not - quite apart from anything else, and the abililty of tribal supporters to remain supporters even if the ruling clique are far removed from themselves, as Corbyn himself shows, Corbyn is not expected to last the distance even if he wins, so she's well placed for a fresh run, or behind Umunna, in a few years if the Left does indeed implode. If they don't though...

    Why would she want to run after the horrible abuse she's been through.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    Scott_P said:

    @politicshome: Barry Sheerman becomes the third Labour MP to call for the leadership contest to be suspended. http://t.co/pjXEmHGVIn http://t.co/ywlhSWAFwj

    By suspended I take it he means scrapped altogether – Guess he didn’t nominate JC then?
    Kendall.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    Indigo said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    Indigo said:

    isam said:

    If we were not part of the EU it's almost certain we would have a much stricter or at least clearer immigration policy. Without the EU rules and regs we are committed to we could deport people much more easily

    Sadly not, the main reason we cant deport people is the Human Rights Act and by extension the ECHR and our judges ridiculously generous interpretations of (inter alia) The Right to Family Life. Also with illegal immigrants destroying their identify papers we have the problem of where to deport them to.

    I agree that is we didn't have free movement, and have proper checks of passports and other documentation at all borders we probably would admit a lot less undesirables in the first place.
    Put illegal immigrants into prison for three years, working on the chain gang during the day, and if they behave impeccably during that time, give them UK citizenship at the end of it
    Chain gangs negatively impact low-skilled legal residents by undermining the price they can charge for their labour.
    ... and if they don't behave impeccably so you cant give them citizenship, you have the same problem as now, only they are even more pissed off!
    They stay in prison
    Maybe its just me but I'd rather use prison spaces to house actual criminals.
    Maybe it's just me but I'd say the word 'illegal' in 'illegal immigrants' means they are actual criminals
    So is someone who speeds on the motorway, should they all be imprisoned too? There are different levels of criminality.

    A few years ago I caught a burglar in my house. He woke me up, I ran downstairs and chased him out the house, catching his licence plate as he drove off. He'd broken my kitchen window to climb in, which is what had woken me up. A week later the Police called me to say he'd been arrested red-handed and he pled guilty to a total of 20 burglaries including mine, the one he was arrested doing and 18 others. He had a prior record for burglary so would definitely do time I was informed.

    The outcome? He was given a suspended sentence and community service. For breaking and entering multiple homes.

    I'd rather see someone who breaks into homes in prison than someone who broke into the country.
  • isamisam Posts: 24,352
    edited August 2015

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Indigo said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    Indigo said:

    isam said:

    If we were not part of the EU it's almost certain we would have a much stricter or at least clearer immigration policy. Without the EU rules and regs we are committed to we could deport people much more easily

    Sadly not, the main reason we cant deport people is the Human Rights Act and by extension the ECHR and our judges ridiculously generous interpretations of (inter alia) The Right to Family Life. Also with illegal immigrants destroying their identify papers we have the problem of where to deport them to.

    I agree that is we didn't have free movement, and have proper checks of passports and other documentation at all borders we probably would admit a lot less undesirables in the first place.
    Put illegal immigrants into prison for three years, working on the chain gang during the day, and if they behave impeccably during that time, give them UK citizenship at the end of it
    Chain gangs negatively impact low-skilled legal residents by undermining the price they can charge for their labour.
    ... and if they don't behave impeccably so you cant give them citizenship, you have the same problem as now, only they are even more pissed off!
    They stay in prison
    Maybe its just me but I'd rather use prison spaces to house actual criminals.
    Maybe it's just me but I'd say the word 'illegal' in 'illegal immigrants' means they are actual criminals
    So is someone who speeds on the motorway, should they all be imprisoned too? There are different levels of criminality.

    A few years ago I caught a burglar in my house. He woke me up, I ran downstairs and chased him out the house, catching his licence plate as he drove off. He'd broken my kitchen window to climb in, which is what had woken me up. A week later the Police called me to say he'd been arrested red-handed and he pled guilty to a total of 20 burglaries including mine, the one he was arrested doing and 18 others. He had a prior record for burglary so would definitely do time I was informed.

    The outcome? He was given a suspended sentence and community service. For breaking and entering multiple homes.

    I'd rather see someone who breaks into homes in prison than someone who broke into the country.
    Eagles tried that crap argument earlier and soon backtracked. People that speed on motorways and get caught do get punished.

    Don't care what you think really. Its a deterrent, the aim is to stop them trying to get in, not to lock them up.
  • isam said:

    Eagles tried that crap argument earlier and soon backtracked.

    Don't care what you think really

    It's not crap its my honest opinion and I don't intend to backtrack. I don't think everyone who speeds deserves a prison sentence, nor do I think illegal migrants do.

    I don't care if you don't care either. Last I checked we're all free to posit our opinions so long as its within the rules, if you don't care then don't respond.
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Indigo said:

    Charles said:

    isam said:

    Indigo said:

    isam said:

    If we were not part of the EU it's almost certain we would have a much stricter or at least clearer immigration policy. Without the EU rules and regs we are committed to we could deport people much more easily

    Sadly not, the main reason we cant deport people is the Human Rights Act and by extension the ECHR and our judges ridiculously generous interpretations of (inter alia) The Right to Family Life. Also with illegal immigrants destroying their identify papers we have the problem of where to deport them to.

    I agree that is we didn't have free movement, and have proper checks of passports and other documentation at all borders we probably would admit a lot less undesirables in the first place.
    Put illegal immigrants into prison for three years, working on the chain gang during the day, and if they behave impeccably during that time, give them UK citizenship at the end of it
    Chain gangs negatively impact low-skilled legal residents by undermining the price they can charge for their labour.
    ... and if they don't behave impeccably so you cant give them citizenship, you have the same problem as now, only they are even more pissed off!
    They stay in prison
    Maybe its just me but I'd rather use prison spaces to house actual criminals.
    Maybe it's just me but I'd say the word 'illegal' in 'illegal immigrants' means they are actual criminals
    So is someone who speeds on the motorway, should they all be imprisoned too? There are different levels of criminality.

    A few years ago I caught a burglar in my house. He woke me up, I ran downstairs and chased him out the house, catching his licence plate as he drove off. He'd broken my kitchen window to climb in, which is what had woken me up. A week later the Police called me to say he'd been arrested red-handed and he pled guilty to a total of 20 burglaries including mine, the one he was arrested doing and 18 others. He had a prior record for burglary so would definitely do time I was informed.

    The outcome? He was given a suspended sentence and community service. For breaking and entering multiple homes.

    I'd rather see someone who breaks into homes in prison than someone who broke into the country.
    Eagles tried that crap argument earlier and soon backtracked.

    Don't care what you think really
    Not a big fan of human rights are you isam?

    It's such a ridiculous idea on so many levels that it isn't really worthy of further discussion.

  • isamisam Posts: 24,352

    isam said:

    Eagles tried that crap argument earlier and soon backtracked.

    Don't care what you think really

    It's not crap its my honest opinion and I don't intend to backtrack. I don't think everyone who speeds deserves a prison sentence, nor do I think illegal migrants do.

    I don't care if you don't care either. Last I checked we're all free to posit our opinions so long as its within the rules, if you don't care then don't respond.
    People who speed do get punished
  • Pulpstar said:

    http://order-order.com/page/13/#:ylDWtmf7k3ZZGA Hmm Wonder if Guido has sorted his betting position since then.

    The fair value of that lot would be very underwater right now.

    "On on the other hand, believing that the majority of the Labour rank and file have not gone mad and that peak Corbyn will pass, Guido has been laying him on Betfair. If you really think Corbyn can do it, Guido is happy to take your money…"

    It does seem like Corbyn has been kept quite high odds on Betfair. Anytime he has started to go low from some bit of poll or information it seems there is a lot of money coming in and laying him.

    Incidentally Paddy power lowered Corbyns odds quite a bit this morning down close to evens. Perhaps they know something we don't.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    Eagles tried that crap argument earlier and soon backtracked.

    Don't care what you think really

    It's not crap its my honest opinion and I don't intend to backtrack. I don't think everyone who speeds deserves a prison sentence, nor do I think illegal migrants do.

    I don't care if you don't care either. Last I checked we're all free to posit our opinions so long as its within the rules, if you don't care then don't respond.
    People who speed do get punished
    Really? All of them every time?

    When I was on the M6 yesterday doing 70mph I was overtaken dozens if not hundreds of times in a 25 mile stretch. I doubt any of those who overtook me were punished.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 6,415

    On topic, I suspect that Corbyn and Kendall supporters may often not give further preferences, even though they will in reality feel a preference - i'm surprised how often I talk to AV voters who say they won't lower themselves to distinguishing between lesser preferences.

    The long-term ihterest of the party is probably better served by Corbyn winning than by someone else squeaking home by 51% thanks to umpteen second and third preferences. If Corbyn wins we can test out the theory that it will bring in a huge wave of enthusiasm (at the least it should mop up many of the Greens, since the Green Party is so heavily anti-austerity rather than just environmental), and if it goes heavily the other way I think he'd call it a day, whereas if he is pipped at the post by transfers it'll be difficult to lead the party effectively.

    If a Corbyn supporter has no preference between Cooper, Burnham or Kendall or a Kendall supporter between Cooper, Burnham or Kendall then it makes sense to just mark the ballot paper once.
    If they have, e.g. a Corbyn supporter might prefer Burnham to Kendall as their leader, then why not vote that way. It's common sense not 'lowering oneself'.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,254

    isam said:

    Eagles tried that crap argument earlier and soon backtracked.

    Don't care what you think really

    It's not crap its my honest opinion and I don't intend to backtrack. I don't think everyone who speeds deserves a prison sentence, nor do I think illegal migrants do.

    I don't care if you don't care either. Last I checked we're all free to posit our opinions so long as its within the rules, if you don't care then don't respond.
    You do believe that illegal immigrants should be deported,don't you ?
  • isamisam Posts: 24,352
    edited August 2015

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Eagles tried that crap argument earlier and soon backtracked.

    Don't care what you think really

    It's not crap its my honest opinion and I don't intend to backtrack. I don't think everyone who speeds deserves a prison sentence, nor do I think illegal migrants do.

    I don't care if you don't care either. Last I checked we're all free to posit our opinions so long as its within the rules, if you don't care then don't respond.
    People who speed do get punished
    Really? All of them every time?

    When I was on the M6 yesterday doing 70mph I was overtaken dozens if not hundreds of times in a 25 mile stretch. I doubt any of those who overtook me were punished.
    Haha you are such a petty bore!

    There is a law against speeding, and those who are caught breaking it are punished.. maybe the punishment is too lenient if people feel its a risk worth taking

    Same goes for illegal immigration. Lets make the punishment for being caught severe enough that its not worth the risk

    Look we both know you made a rick by saying they weren't criminals, and were stumped when I pointed out they were by virtue of being ILLEGAL immigrants.. lets just leave it or you will dig a hole back to Australia trying to win an argument you've already lost
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,698
    A companion to the longstanding Daily Mail version:

    http://www.the-debate.co.uk/cifgenerator/index.php
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