I don't think that personal attacks on Nick Palmer for showing past loyalty to party leaders are either fair or justified. Given the confines of his much more public political position than most of us, he has over the years shown more independence of thought about his party's leadership than some of those now criticising him.
Might not be fair but it is informative. He also was posting how wonderful Gordon Brown was at the time.
I remember Nick Palmer's posts about Gordon Brown's leadership being rather more nuanced than that. It's not fair to expect sitting MPs to post overtly disloyal messages on a public site that could and would be quoted back against them.
I don't think that personal attacks on Nick Palmer for showing past loyalty to party leaders are either fair or justified. Given the confines of his much more public political position than most of us, he has over the years shown more independence of thought about his party's leadership than some of those now criticising him.
Might not be fair but it is informative. He also was posting how wonderful Gordon Brown was at the time.
I remember Nick Palmer's posts about Gordon Brown's leadership being rather more nuanced than that. It's not fair to expect sitting MPs to post overtly disloyal messages on a public site that could and would be quoted back against them.
That's true, but going from being a pro-Blair person to a pro-Corbyn one, without any repudiation of previous views, comes across as just rank political expediency. But we knew this from his twisting positions on an EU referendum, where he didn't just change based on the party whip, but actually argued that he believed in each position as a matter of principle from the start.
Every time you consider the detail of that story you realise that David is never going to forgive Ed. And nor should he.
What would have been different if David had been leader?
Surely only that the bacon sandwiches would have been replaced by bananas. The attacks on Miliband's father would have been the same and like his brother, David also looks a bit odd and talks in pseudo-academic jargon. The SNP would still have beaten Labour in Scotland; the Tories would still have beaten the LibDems in England. David Miliband was not some great political colossus. It is not even clear he was a Blairite.
I am not saying David was or is great. I am saying Ed cheated his brother out of his life's ambition and that was morally unacceptable. He did not win fair and square as OGH's piece makes clear.
FWIW I now think David would have been the better leader. It is not a hard bar. He would probably not stuck with the blank sheet of paper. He might well have produced a more coherent policy program (it could hardly have been worse). Without being in English his speeches might have been a little more comprehensible. Whether this would have made much difference is hard to say but the Tories only have a small majority so it would not have taken much.
Corbyn having a heart attack or getting caught corpus dilecti by the Sun
May I suggest 'caught in flagrante delicto?' Corbyn in such circumstances would hardly be a 'corpus delicti'!
That's exactly what I meant ...''In Flagrante Delicto'' with a prostitute or rent boy or maybe with some of his grisly friends from some terrorist organisation ...unfortunately , that austere old Marxist is like a Jesuit , forsaking the worldly pleasures , in fact that is the worst thing about him , that he really does have convictions and principles ...he couldn't even compromise with his wife over his sons education and so she divorced him and so I am quite convinced that the LP electorate will sooner or later sober up and divorce him too
Corbyn having a heart attack or getting caught corpus dilecti by the Sun
May I suggest 'caught in flagrante delicto?' Corbyn in such circumstances would hardly be a 'corpus delicti'!
That's exactly what I meant ...''In Flagrante Delicto'' with a prostitute or rent boy or maybe with some of his grisly friends from some terrorist organisation ...unfortunately , that austere old Marxist is like a Jesuit , forsaking the worldly pleasures , in fact that is the worst thing about him , that he really does have convictions and principles ...he couldn't even compromise with his wife over his sons education and so she divorced him and so I am quite convinced that the LP electorate will sooner or later sober up and divorce him too
Unemployment up for the second consecutive month - having increased by 25,000 over last three months.
The total finally increasing was certainly well timed for the Tories - it waited until after the GE, so couldn't puncture any narrative they presented, fairly or not.
For what it's worth, I don't think Nick is a wilfully deceitful person. He's a nice guy that has some very sincere views on non-mainstream issues, and deserves a lot of credit for posting on a public forum with grace and decency while in political office. Our democracy would be a lot stronger if more politicians did this.
That said, I think most political issues he feels less strongly about, and has a politician's ability to jusitfy to himself whatever views political expediency require him to believe. The EU referendum case was a classic case, where I think he changed 180 degrees on his views on the merits of referendums without even realising he had done so. He was kidding himself as much as he was kidding anyone else.
It's not fair to expect sitting MPs to post overtly disloyal messages on a public site that could and would be quoted back against them.
Didn't seem to bother Corbyn, and look where that got him
For all his many faults, Corbyn's clearly never been afraid of upsetting his bosses, or losing out on an appointment, by speaking up for, and being true about a principle in which he believes.
Unlike other nodding donkeys, blindly following the Whips.
Part of me suspects that whether Andy Burnham, Yvette Cooper, Liz Kendall or A.N Other were set to become Labour leader, the Conservatives on here would still be denigrating them at every opportunity - that's politics I suppose and when the selling platers line up for the Conservative Party Leadership Handicap, the rest of us can have a good laugh as well.
More seriously, I struggle with the demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn. He's academic rather than charismatic to this observer and while some of his economic ideas lack credibility, the notion he should be vilified for the company he has kept just seems absurd.
The notion we should never talk to terrorists may be fine for domestic consumption but in the real world, Governments deal with power, not people. The Heath Government negotiated with the IRA and I suspect on many other occasions, either directly or through intermediaries, successive British Governments have had contact with groups we would call "terrorists", quite apart from the despots we have actively supported because they were, so to speak, "our bastard".
Corbyn is right when he argues any long-term resolution in the Middle East has to involve Israel negotiating with Hamas and Hezbollah because they are the power in Palestine and Gaza or at least they are the representatives of the people. To simply pretend such power does not exist and to retreat behind an even bigger fence and shout more loudly is foolish.
Newspapers, bloggers and commentators can argue for that - Governments operate in the real world. None of that pardons or in any way condones the excesses of violence (as again Corbyn states) on one side or all sides.
Let's take IS as an example - they are unquestionably an evil group who use a mixture of religious zealotry and modern marketing to convert susceptible people into embracing a warped version of the Islamic faith which excuses barbarism, cruelty and inhumanity on an unimaginable scale. Yet they are a power and we can't deny that. We therefore have two choices - eradication by force or negotiation to achieve a modus vivendi. Sometimes the options are all or nothing - trying to do neither is a recipe for disaster.
Corbyn having a heart attack or getting caught corpus dilecti by the Sun
May I suggest 'caught in flagrante delicto?' Corbyn in such circumstances would hardly be a 'corpus delicti'!
That's exactly what I meant ...''In Flagrante Delicto'' with a prostitute or rent boy or maybe with some of his grisly friends from some terrorist organisation ...unfortunately , that austere old Marxist is like a Jesuit , forsaking the worldly pleasures , in fact that is the worst thing about him , that he really does have convictions and principles ...he couldn't even compromise with his wife over his sons education and so she divorced him and so I am quite convinced that the LP electorate will sooner or later sober up and divorce him too
If the new policy at Amnesty International for taking the law out of paid-for consenting sex between adults is implemented, then in 50 years in Flagrante with a prostitute may (hopefully) not be a career-ending problem.
BBC was debating ID Cards - are they an idea that now perhaps we should press on with. We have electoral register, passports, NI numbers.
The introduction would be rocky, costly and I'd prefer it to not be outsourced to Capita or another 3rd party.
They aren't something I'd like to see in an ideal world, but the state and private organisations do hold alot of information. Safeguards such as a policeman not being able to ask for an ID card be produced on demand amongst others should be put in place. Perhaps a quid pro quo such as default NOT being on the OPEN electoral register could be put in place ?
Anyway it seems to be one of the pulls for the UK that you don't need an ID card to find employment that appeals to illegal immigrants... something to ponder.
The pro-Corbyn side is trying to pretend the argument is about whether or not we should negotiate with bad people. But that wasn't the criticism. The criticism is nit that he wants to do hard-nosed negotiations with them, but sympathises with their ideology and describes them as friends. The man himself has dodged and dodged this criticism to show he is as much an evasive politician as the rest of them.
Agree and that is why there are very few good leaders at present. A good leader also needs a very good No 2 who can be the co-ordinator and unifier. As MT said, "Everyone needs a Willie".
DavidM strikes me as a good committee chairman type. All very consensual and nice at keeping a range of views onboard. He isn't a leader - he showed an unwillingness to stand up and be counted again and again.
If you aren't prepared to stand up, you're the wrong man for the job of LotO. Leaders can be chairman [not terribly good ones], but committee chairman can't be leaders IME. They simply don't have the required cojones for it.
I'd argue that a dull, safe and capable administrator is exactly the sort of guy we need at the top.
I find it hard to argue that David would have been worse than Ed, and better in one important way: I think an important factor in Labour's near-wipeout in Scotland was the Falkirk scandal, and the resultant mess. It might have been that David, less in hock to the unions, might have dealt with that better than dithering Ed.
The second point has force. The first point would for a PM - but not perhaps for a Leader of the Opposition, whose job is to come up with ideas to put into practice later rather than solving problems as they arise.
The problem with adverserial democracy is that you need somebody who can do both for it to work effectively, and they're very rare.
A well-reasoned argument but "eradication by force or negotiation to achieve a modus vivendi. Sometimes the options are all or nothing - trying to do neither is a recipe for disaster."
I'd be interested in how you negotiate a half-way house with a group determined to bring about your death, enslavement or conversion. And that ignores the fun the current inhabitants of the 'Caliphate' face.
Jezza may well agree a truce of some sort - he does have 'useful idiot' stamped on his forehead.
Unemployment up for the second consecutive month - having increased by 25,000 over last three months.
There were 5.37 million people employed in the public sector for March 2015. This was: • down 22,000 from December 2014 • down 59,000 from a year earlier • the lowest figure since comparable records began in 1999
There were 25.68 million people employed in the private sector for March 2015. This was 136,000 more than for December 2014 and 483,000 more than for a year earlier.
• public sector employment fell by 10,000 compared with December 2014 and by 42,000 compared with a year earlier
• private sector employment increased by 124,000 compared with December 2014 and by 466,000 compared with a year earlier
I can't get too excited about the numbers in public v private employment due to the amount of outsourcing that is still going on. There are still an awful lot of people doing the same job, still being paid by the state, but because they are now directly employed by Serco or some such they count as private sector. I am sure that if it were possible to correct for the outsourcing effect the numbers would look a lot different.
There is an element of that and some recategorisations such as FE colleges but there is no doubt that the head count of the public sector has shrunk considerably since 2010 and will continue to do so. Probably the majority of the reductions have been at local authority level.
I don't think that personal attacks on Nick Palmer for showing past loyalty to party leaders are either fair or justified. Given the confines of his much more public political position than most of us, he has over the years shown more independence of thought about his party's leadership than some of those now criticising him.
Might not be fair but it is informative. He also was posting how wonderful Gordon Brown was at the time.
I remember Nick Palmer's posts about Gordon Brown's leadership being rather more nuanced than that. It's not fair to expect sitting MPs to post overtly disloyal messages on a public site that could and would be quoted back against them.
That's true, but going from being a pro-Blair person to a pro-Corbyn one, without any repudiation of previous views, comes across as just rank political expediency. But we knew this from his twisting positions on an EU referendum, where he didn't just change based on the party whip, but actually argued that he believed in each position as a matter of principle from the start.
I think Nick's position on Blair and Corbyn is actually perfectly coherent. They both offer a vision. Different visions, yes, but just having a vision at all counts for something. And there's nothing wrong with thinking that a Britain in a different time and different situation might benefit from being on a different path.
BBC was debating ID Cards - are they an idea that now perhaps we should press on with. We have electoral register, passports, NI numbers. [...] Safeguards such as a policeman not being able to ask for an ID card be produced on demand amongst others should be put in place. [...]
My problem is that their usefulness is correlated to the risk of them.
If they aren't compulsory to carry, then we can't use them to validate many things better than current methods. In which case it is difficult to justify the super-database of information they would hold.
If they are compulsory to carry that has other problems.
The pro-Corbyn side is trying to pretend the argument is about whether or not we should negotiate with bad people. But that wasn't the criticism. The criticism is nit that he wants to do hard-nosed negotiations with them, but sympathises with their ideology and describes them as friends. The man himself has dodged and dodged this criticism to show he is as much an evasive politician as the rest of them.
ID cards are a terrible idea. We have seen how many abuses and leaks of personal danger there has been. Concentrating all this information in one place for hackers to target and for leaks to spread just ups the risks dramatically. Passports and other existing IDs work just fine for employers to check employees. The intrusion is far more egregious than being on the public electoral register, so not much of a quid pro quo, and its not one at all for those of us already opted out.
BBC was debating ID Cards - are they an idea that now perhaps we should press on with. We have electoral register, passports, NI numbers.
The introduction would be rocky, costly and I'd prefer it to not be outsourced to Capita or another 3rd party.
They aren't something I'd like to see in an ideal world, but the state and private organisations do hold alot of information. Safeguards such as a policeman not being able to ask for an ID card be produced on demand amongst others should be put in place. Perhaps a quid pro quo such as default NOT being on the OPEN electoral register could be put in place ?
Anyway it seems to be one of the pulls for the UK that you don't need an ID card to find employment that appeals to illegal immigrants... something to ponder.
I'm not in favour of any solution that involves criminalising me or other British citizens for not producing documentation to officialdom at their whim.
Part of me suspects that whether Andy Burnham, Yvette Cooper, Liz Kendall or A.N Other were set to become Labour leader, the Conservatives on here would still be denigrating them at every opportunity - that's politics I suppose and when the selling platers line up for the Conservative Party Leadership Handicap, the rest of us can have a good laugh as well.
More seriously, I struggle with the demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn. He's academic rather than charismatic to this observer and while some of his economic ideas lack credibility, the notion he should be vilified for the company he has kept just seems absurd.
The notion we should never talk to terrorists may be fine for domestic consumption but in the real world, Governments deal with power, not people. The Heath Government negotiated with the IRA and I suspect on many other occasions, either directly or through intermediaries, successive British Governments have had contact with groups we would call "terrorists", quite apart from the despots we have actively supported because they were, so to speak, "our bastard".
Corbyn is right when he argues any long-term resolution in the Middle East has to involve Israel negotiating with Hamas and Hezbollah because they are the power in Palestine and Gaza or at least they are the representatives of the people. To simply pretend such power does not exist and to retreat behind an even bigger fence and shout more loudly is foolish.
Newspapers, bloggers and commentators can argue for that - Governments operate in the real world. None of that pardons or in any way condones the excesses of violence (as again Corbyn states) on one side or all sides.
Let's take IS as an example - they are unquestionably an evil group who use a mixture of religious zealotry and modern marketing to convert susceptible people into embracing a warped version of the Islamic faith which excuses barbarism, cruelty and inhumanity on an unimaginable scale. Yet they are a power and we can't deny that. We therefore have two choices - eradication by force or negotiation to achieve a modus vivendi. Sometimes the options are all or nothing - trying to do neither is a recipe for disaster.
Well here's a fine example of moral relativism and appeasement ...I'm mightily relieved you were not around in 1940-41
'Anyway it seems to be one of the pulls for the UK that you don't need an ID card to find employment that appeals to illegal immigrants... something to ponder.'
Agree, if the employment avenue is blocked off for illegal immigrants it would be major deterrent, also might assist in getting rid of the million illegal immigrants that are already here.
" Liz Kendall has caused a bit of a stir among Morning Star readers today. In an article for the left-wing daily, she champions the reported Attlee line: “You will be judged by what you succeed at gentlemen, not by what you attempt”. The paper reports this pitch 'raised eyebrows'.
North East MP Dave Anderson writes for LabourList this morning about why he's supporting Andy Burnham, arguing that the race "comes down to values and leadership", and that "Burnham offers both".
I attended a Jeremy Corbyn rally in Cardiff last night, where around 1,000 people crammed into a 700-seater room. It doesn't seem his campaign's momentum is slowing down at all, and the start of voting is just days away."
A huge slab have gone from Whitehall too. During one stint at DWP, I was part of a dept of 21. All we did was talk to other bits of DWP - literally. We ran the internal communications function, and produced three glossy monthly magazines/websites. There were dozens of others doing the same thing across each division so JCP had a load of their own too. And that's just one Whitehall example - Defra, DoH, CSA as was and on and on and on.
Whilst IC is a key part to keeping an organisation focused/coherent/understanding the point of it - it was obvious overmanning/create work because it could.
Unemployment up for the second consecutive month - having increased by 25,000 over last three months.
There were 5.37 million people employed in the public sector for March 2015. This was: • down 22,000 from December 2014 • down 59,000 from a year earlier • the lowest figure since comparable records began in 1999
There were 25.68 million people employed in the private sector for March 2015. This was 136,000 more than for December 2014 and 483,000 more than for a year earlier.
• public sector employment fell by 10,000 compared with December 2014 and by 42,000 compared with a year earlier
• private sector employment increased by 124,000 compared with December 2014 and by 466,000 compared with a year earlier
I can't get too excited about the numbers in public v private employment due to the amount of outsourcing that is still going on. There are still an awful lot of people doing the same job, still being paid by the state, but because they are now directly employed by Serco or some such they count as private sector. I am sure that if it were possible to correct for the outsourcing effect the numbers would look a lot different.
There is an element of that and some recategorisations such as FE colleges but there is no doubt that the head count of the public sector has shrunk considerably since 2010 and will continue to do so. Probably the majority of the reductions have been at local authority level.
A well-reasoned argument but "eradication by force or negotiation to achieve a modus vivendi. Sometimes the options are all or nothing - trying to do neither is a recipe for disaster."
I'd be interested in how you negotiate a half-way house with a group determined to bring about your death, enslavement or conversion. And that ignores the fun the current inhabitants of the 'Caliphate' face.
Jezza may well agree a truce of some sort - he does have 'useful idiot' stamped on his forehead.
To play Devil's Advocate slightly, we were happy to negotiate with both the Nazis and the Soviet Union both of whom threatened to invade Britain at one time and both of whom, had they been successful, would have destroyed British society and the British way of life as we know it.;We were also terrified that both had infiltrated the general population with sympathisers who, at the right time, would carry out acts of sabotage, murder and destruction.
The IRA murdered people in this country on their own doorsteps and wanted to create a Marxist Ireland (including Ulster). We negotiated with them, as well.
Do IS want to negotiate with anyone ? At the moment, no. They clearly have contacts with some Governments so if they wanted to talk that could be arranged and the time will come when they will want to talk or have to talk - it happens in all these conflicts, in the end Ian Smith was forced to negotiate with Mugabe and Nkomo. There's no point trying to set up moderate halfway houses - they never work - you have to deal with the power whoever holds it.
I do not have full access to the Times but I wonder if they mentioned the other tactics the main pro Corbyn Unions can use? 1. Focus on only calling first the more left leaning members of the political sub. There are 2million to get through so focus on low hanging fruit. 2. Enquire which candidate they are likely to vote for. 3. If they say "voting Corbyn" move straight into registering them but holding back some applications as per OGH article above. 4. If they do not say "voting Corbyn" mark their entry and refer to a convincer who will try and talk them round.
Labour HQ and its past/current Leadership are mugs at handling the Unions. Unite in particular has folk inside Labour HQ.
"Last month President Vladimir Putin endorsed a scheme to bulldoze, bury and burn a whole range of imported Western foods, as part of the ongoing reaction against sanctions the West has imposed on Russia. Videos of the destruction, like the mountain of foreign cheese squashed into the ground in Belgorod, 400 miles (600km) south of Moscow, are now famous.....
Further restrictions on importing Western goods may be on the way, too. Last week Russia's online community reacted to a proposal to ban several medical products - including condoms. The country's former chief sanitary doctor said the move would make people "more disciplined, more strict and discriminating in choosing partners, and maybe will do a favour to our society in respect to solving demographic problems."
Furthermore , I am tired of reading Corbyn being described as a ''mild mannered man '' !..after all , there is nothing ''mild '' about his quasi Marxist policies
Pol Pot was a mild mannered academic and theoretician ...a killer in the abstract
Heinrich Himmler was a ''mild mannered '' chicken farmer , very much hen pecked by his wife of 7 years his senior ..he really couldn't stand the sight of blood !
How many men in Court for a serious offence have been described as ''very mild mannered ''
Many of the Bolsheviks were mild mannered intellectuals , unfortunately they were also radicals ....''The Kulaks must be liquidated as a class !
....SN: But do you condemn what the IRA did? JC: I condemn all bombing, it is not a good idea, and it is terrible what happened.
SN: The question is do you condemn what the IRA did? JC: Look I condemn what was done by the British Army as well as the other sides as well. What happened in Derry in 1972 was pretty devastating as well.
SN: Do you distinguish between State forces like the British Army and the IRA? JC: Well in a sense the treatment of IRA prisoners which made them into virtual political prisoners suggested that the British government and the State saw some kind of almost equivalency. I mean my point is that the whole violence was terrible, was appalling, and came out of a process that had been allowed to fester in Northern Ireland for a very long time and surely we can move on a bit and look towards the achievements of the peace process in moving things forward.
SN: But if you are a potential candidate for the Prime Minister of the UK Jeremy it is fair for me to push you one more time. Are you prepared to condemn what the IRA did? JC: What it is fair to push me on is how we take the peace process forward ...
SN: Are you prepared to condemn what the IRA did? JC Can I answer the question in this way? We gained ceasefires, they were important and a huge step forward. Those ceasefires brought about the peace process, brought about the reconciliation process which we should all be pleased about. Can we take the thing forward rather than backward?
SN: Are you refusing to condemn what the IRA did? JC: (RAILWAY NOISE) Sorry I couldn't hear that.
SN: (more noise) Are you refusing to condemn what the IRA did? JC: I feel we will have to do this later you know. (NOISE STOPS)
SN: Well let me just ask you this last question while it is quiet there. Are you refusing to condemn what the IRA did? (line goes dead)
The pro-Corbyn side is trying to pretend the argument is about whether or not we should negotiate with bad people. But that wasn't the criticism. The criticism is nit that he wants to do hard-nosed negotiations with them, but sympathises with their ideology and describes them as friends. The man himself has dodged and dodged this criticism to show he is as much an evasive politician as the rest of them.
Leaving aside that Officials should not have the right to demand to see our papers (or plastic), the information stored would all be on a centralised database, which would be a hackers' wet dream.
We're an island, for ****'s sake. Police the Tunnel properly and check the ports. Surrendering to the illiberal monstrosity of official identity papers to try and stop illegal immigration is demented. It's the modern day equivalent of Baldrick solving the problem of his mother's low ceiling by cutting off her head.
I started checking the interweb for political sites (and found this one, amongst others) in late 2007 when I was deeply worried the cretinous Brown would call and win a snap election, forcing me to either become a law-breaker or submit to the indefensible vileness of ID cards. Any party proposing such an action would lose my vote.
Furthermore , I am tired of reading Corbyn being described as a ''mild mannered man '' !..after all , there is nothing ''mild '' about his quasi Marxist policies
Pol Pot was a mild mannered academic and theoretician ...a killer in the abstract
Heinrich Himmler was a ''mild mannered '' chicken farmer , very much hen pecked by his wife of 7 years his senior ..he really couldn't stand the sight of blood !
How many men in Court for a serious offence have been described as ''very mild mannered ''
Many of the Bolsheviks were mild mannered intellectuals , unfortunately they were also radicals ....''The Kulaks must be liquidated as a class !
"Last month President Vladimir Putin endorsed a scheme to bulldoze, bury and burn a whole range of imported Western foods, as part of the ongoing reaction against sanctions the West has imposed on Russia. Videos of the destruction, like the mountain of foreign cheese squashed into the ground in Belgorod, 400 miles (600km) south of Moscow, are now famous.....
Further restrictions on importing Western goods may be on the way, too. Last week Russia's online community reacted to a proposal to ban several medical products - including condoms. The country's former chief sanitary doctor said the move would make people "more disciplined, more strict and discriminating in choosing partners, and maybe will do a favour to our society in respect to solving demographic problems."
'Anyway it seems to be one of the pulls for the UK that you don't need an ID card to find employment that appeals to illegal immigrants... something to ponder.'
Agree, if the employment avenue is blocked off for illegal immigrants it would be major deterrent, also might assist in getting rid of the million illegal immigrants that are already here.
Legal employers already demand legal ID from their legal employees. If I hire someone I need to take a copy of either a passport or two forms of ID from two separate lists.
If people are illegally paying cash in hand and not demanding ID already I fail to see how ID cards will change that. We should enforce the laws we already have rather than adding more byzantine measures to cover areas already covered.
Ireland will start issuing ID cards in 2015; Norway in 2017
I think it'll happen here eventually too.
If they are brought in here, I will seriously think about emigrating. I don't care what other European nations that have less of a tradition of liberty do.
Leaving aside that Officials should not have the right to demand to see our papers (or plastic), the information stored would all be on a centralised database, which would be a hackers' wet dream.
We're an island, for ****'s sake. Police the Tunnel properly and check the ports. Surrendering to the illiberal monstrosity of official identity papers to try and stop illegal immigration is demented. It's the modern day equivalent of Baldrick solving the problem of his mother's low ceiling by cutting off her head.
I started checking the interweb for political sites (and found this one, amongst others) in late 2007 when I was deeply worried the cretinous Brown would call and win a snap election, forcing me to either become a law-breaker or submit to the indefensible vileness of ID cards. Any party proposing such an action would lose my vote.
If ID cards will not include any more information than passports, then we can just use passports. If they will include more information, then it's a bigger intrusion into liberty and passports can not be used as an argument.
I personally do not have a Tesco clubcard for entirely these reasons.
The difference between choice and compulsion is the difference between euthanasia and murder, between sex and rape. It's fundamental, not a minor aspect.
'Anyway it seems to be one of the pulls for the UK that you don't need an ID card to find employment that appeals to illegal immigrants... something to ponder.'
Agree, if the employment avenue is blocked off for illegal immigrants it would be major deterrent, also might assist in getting rid of the million illegal immigrants that are already here.
Legal employers already demand legal ID from their legal employees. If I hire someone I need to take a copy of either a passport or two forms of ID from two separate lists.
If people are illegally paying cash in hand and not demanding ID already I fail to see how ID cards will change that. We should enforce the laws we already have rather than adding more byzantine measures to cover areas already covered.
How about if the person you are hiring lives with their parents (So has no bills in their name), relies on public transport and never travels abroad ? Just asking...
Leaving aside that Officials should not have the right to demand to see our papers (or plastic), the information stored would all be on a centralised database, which would be a hackers' wet dream.
We're an island, for ****'s sake. Police the Tunnel properly and check the ports. Surrendering to the illiberal monstrosity of official identity papers to try and stop illegal immigration is demented. It's the modern day equivalent of Baldrick solving the problem of his mother's low ceiling by cutting off her head.
I started checking the interweb for political sites (and found this one, amongst others) in late 2007 when I was deeply worried the cretinous Brown would call and win a snap election, forcing me to either become a law-breaker or submit to the indefensible vileness of ID cards. Any party proposing such an action would lose my vote.
Do you have a passport out of interest ?
Or a Tesco clubcard
My passport is held at home and not produced unless I leave the country, not held on my person to be demanded by every petty official who feels he has the right to see it (which inevitably happens).
My Clubcard is opt-in and only produced when I feel like it.
Mr. Pulpstar, bank statement? And won't they have a National Insurance number?
And do you think forcing over 60 million people to have an ID card to catch a tiny number of criminals/illegal immigrants is proportionate? Forcing everyone to wear cameras constantly would help catch criminals too.
Of course Nats would never swap constituencies to further their aims.
The current MP for Gordon was never representing Banff and Buchan...
What are you wittering on about.
The whole reason Salmond ended up with Gordon was that it was available and Banff and Buchan already had an young incumbent he chose not to push aside. It's the exact opposite of the disgraceful carpet bagging Davidson.
"we were happy to negotiate with both the Nazis ... "
The Nazis were happy to negotiate - they thought they were dealing with a Jezza.
Our conditions were unconditional surrender. Or did Rudolf Hess get lost on a Thomas Cook expedition to Scotland? 'Bloody decades in Spandau, and I never even got a postcard of a Loch.'
'Anyway it seems to be one of the pulls for the UK that you don't need an ID card to find employment that appeals to illegal immigrants... something to ponder.'
Agree, if the employment avenue is blocked off for illegal immigrants it would be major deterrent, also might assist in getting rid of the million illegal immigrants that are already here.
Legal employers already demand legal ID from their legal employees. If I hire someone I need to take a copy of either a passport or two forms of ID from two separate lists.
If people are illegally paying cash in hand and not demanding ID already I fail to see how ID cards will change that. We should enforce the laws we already have rather than adding more byzantine measures to cover areas already covered.
Quite right. We check passports of all new employees even in a part of the country a world away from immigration "hotspots". Frankly at times I have thought this borders on the ludicrous as we are checking people so clearly and obviously British it's beyond belief, but we still do it, because that's the law. ID cards wouldn't change what we do.
I trust you return in good fettle and a sound betting position.
We've been struggling in your absence to make sense of what is happening in the Labour Party.
Most decent of you Nabbers. Fair to middling presently.
I think that the majority of the Labour selectorate are happy and quite determined to proceed through their "Millwall FC" phase. - The voters don't like us and we don't care.
....SN: But do you condemn what the IRA did? JC: I condemn all bombing, it is not a good idea, and it is terrible what happened.
SN: The question is do you condemn what the IRA did? JC: Look I condemn what was done by the British Army as well as the other sides as well. What happened in Derry in 1972 was pretty devastating as well.
SN: Do you distinguish between State forces like the British Army and the IRA? JC: Well in a sense the treatment of IRA prisoners which made them into virtual political prisoners suggested that the British government and the State saw some kind of almost equivalency. I mean my point is that the whole violence was terrible, was appalling, and came out of a process that had been allowed to fester in Northern Ireland for a very long time and surely we can move on a bit and look towards the achievements of the peace process in moving things forward.
Perhaps the question I'm left with is why is it particularly important to condemn the IRA - because they murdered British soldiers, MPs, civilians in England and members of the Royal Family ? The Protestant paramilitaries murdered innocent Catholics at night in the alleys and streets of Ulster and as Corbyn pointed out, it took far too long for the events of Bloody Sunday to be recognised for what they were and that will always be a positive for me in assessing David Cameron.
I've lived in London all my life so I know about the IRA and terror but not like the people of Ulster where it was much more frequent, indiscriminate and no less brutal.
For me, all murder, however, whoever and wherever it happened, is to be condemned and it's regrettable that realpolitik dictates many of these murders have and will go unpunished.
It's worth recalling that Syriza won in Greece, although I'm heartened the British public looked at Ed Miliband and collectively reached the same conclusion as pb.com.
I'm not torn at all this is disgusting. If he's guilty of sexual assault he should face prosecution and his victims should see justice be served. I understand the concept of a statute of limitations (so that you don't face unexpected charges years later you can't defend yourself from) but the clock should stop once charges are filed - hiding away from the law for years waiting for the charges to expire is disturbing.
Sex charges against Assange will expire next week.
I'm torn - I detest this chap, but at least we won't be paying to keep him trapped in the Ecuadorean embassy.
Even if the European Arrest Warrant is withdrawn by the Swedish Prosecution Authority, Assange ought to be arrested, prosecuted and punished for the offence of failing to surrender to his bail, contrary to the Bail Act 1976, s. 6(1).
'Anyway it seems to be one of the pulls for the UK that you don't need an ID card to find employment that appeals to illegal immigrants... something to ponder.'
Agree, if the employment avenue is blocked off for illegal immigrants it would be major deterrent, also might assist in getting rid of the million illegal immigrants that are already here.
Legal employers already demand legal ID from their legal employees. If I hire someone I need to take a copy of either a passport or two forms of ID from two separate lists.
If people are illegally paying cash in hand and not demanding ID already I fail to see how ID cards will change that. We should enforce the laws we already have rather than adding more byzantine measures to cover areas already covered.
How about if the person you are hiring lives with their parents (So has no bills in their name), relies on public transport and never travels abroad ? Just asking...
Birth Certificate plus NI Card. Every Brit should have those (or can get replacements). There are alternatives available from each category (eg adoption certificate instead of birth, or P45 instead of NI Card).
Interesting to read that Nick P's correspondents are split between JC and Cooper - AB seems down and out. Yet she has drifted out to 8.
A question though, why would a man who stopped being an MP over five years ago still get regular correspondence?
My email list of 10,000 former constituents remains largely intact and I send them comments from time to time and get feedback, just as a private individual. People subscribed over the years because they thought it was interesting to discuss national issues rather than because they wanted to chew over the state of local buses etc. (That said, I get dozens of emails a day rather than the hundreds I got as an MP, so it's wearing off over time.)
AB's support is quite strongly localised, I think. Broxtowe may not be typical.
Fitalass: it's naughty to take a quote from someone who wrote to me and attribute it to me. I expect you did it by accident, yes?
Glad to see you back, JackW. I think I will settle for "fair to middling" if I struggle against prevailing medical expectations and make it to your extravagant number of years....
Glad to see you back, JackW. I think I will settle for "fair to middling" if I struggle against prevailing medical expectations and make it to your extravagant number of years....
Sex charges against Assange will expire next week.
I'm torn - I detest this chap, but at least we won't be paying to keep him trapped in the Ecuadorean embassy.
Even if the European Arrest Warrant is withdrawn by the Swedish Prosecution Authority, Assange ought to be arrested, prosecuted and punished for the offence of failing to surrender to his bail, contrary to the Bail Act 1976, s. 6(1).
He might be willing to cop to that, as he was willing to answer to the rape charges. What he didn't want was for the rape charge to be used for a nefarious excuse to extradite him to the USA and be kept in a windowless cell for the rest of his life.
Leaving aside that Officials should not have the right to demand to see our papers (or plastic), the information stored would all be on a centralised database, which would be a hackers' wet dream.
We're an island, for ****'s sake. Police the Tunnel properly and check the ports. Surrendering to the illiberal monstrosity of official identity papers to try and stop illegal immigration is demented. It's the modern day equivalent of Baldrick solving the problem of his mother's low ceiling by cutting off her head.
I started checking the interweb for political sites (and found this one, amongst others) in late 2007 when I was deeply worried the cretinous Brown would call and win a snap election, forcing me to either become a law-breaker or submit to the indefensible vileness of ID cards. Any party proposing such an action would lose my vote.
Very well said Mr. Dancer. I agree entirely.
Can I also add my voice to those welcoming JackW back onboard. He has been sorely missed.
Mr. T, disagree. Labour could conceivably end, though I doubt it, but if it does another force will take over the mantle of leftyness.
There will always be a hard left, yes. My point is that if Corbyn wins the leadership, and is then calamitously defeated in 2020, the Left will be permanently killed off as a significant force - even within Labour.
The party will revolt at this third crushing defeat and finally purge the commie lunatics, who may slink away and found their own pointless faction.
Either that or Labour will split altogether.
As a Conservative I do worry about this though. I would rather the hard left remain a force and pull Labour left, giving us repeated Tory governments. I don't want a New Labour like party coming back and, while being moderate on economics, still being far left on the EU, multiculturalism, statism and immigration
Part of me suspects that whether Andy Burnham, Yvette Cooper, Liz Kendall or A.N Other were set to become Labour leader, the Conservatives on here would still be denigrating them at every opportunity - that's politics I suppose and when the selling platers line up for the Conservative Party Leadership Handicap, the rest of us can have a good laugh as well.
More seriously, I struggle with the demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn. He's academic rather than charismatic to this observer and while some of his economic ideas lack credibility, the notion he should be vilified for the company he has kept just seems absurd.
Let's take IS as an example - they are unquestionably an evil group who use a mixture of religious zealotry and modern marketing to convert susceptible people into embracing a warped version of the Islamic faith which excuses barbarism, cruelty and inhumanity on an unimaginable scale. Yet they are a power and we can't deny that. We therefore have two choices - eradication by force or negotiation to achieve a modus vivendi. Sometimes the options are all or nothing - trying to do neither is a recipe for disaster.
Talking to enemies, even terrorists, is of course necessary. It can be a matter of timing, however. Corbyn appears, and this may be incorrect, to stake a moral grandstanding position of 'talking not war', when sometimes it isn't appropriate to talk right now. IS being an example - in their present position, and ours, negotiations are not viable or supportable. Maybe they never will be, maybe one day it will be necessary and appropriate, but that's when some factors change markedly. What is wrong is automatic positions on foreign affairs, or insisting upon talking and negotiation when perhaps the other side are not willing to meet us halfway (or indeed vice-versa), or indeed it would be unreasonable to do so. That is, when X is still doing or saying Y, is it supportable to negotiate? Perhaps, but perhaps not. Corbyn is portrayed, however, as having no nuance, or certainly some who do support him act as though talking is the only moral choice, and though it often is moral, sometimes it's not.
Sex charges against Assange will expire next week.
I'm torn - I detest this chap, but at least we won't be paying to keep him trapped in the Ecuadorean embassy.
Even if the European Arrest Warrant is withdrawn by the Swedish Prosecution Authority, Assange ought to be arrested, prosecuted and punished for the offence of failing to surrender to his bail, contrary to the Bail Act 1976, s. 6(1).
He might be willing to cop to that, as he was willing to answer to the rape charges. What he didn't want was for the rape charge to be used for a nefarious excuse to extradite him to the USA and be kept in a windowless cell for the rest of his life.
He's not charged with rape. He's charged with sexual misconduct which is considered different to rape. It would probably be a good idea for this country to have some sort of escalating range of criminality but good luck getting any politician to back common sense in the face of the lefty outrage.
Sex charges against Assange will expire next week.
I'm torn - I detest this chap, but at least we won't be paying to keep him trapped in the Ecuadorean embassy.
Even if the European Arrest Warrant is withdrawn by the Swedish Prosecution Authority, Assange ought to be arrested, prosecuted and punished for the offence of failing to surrender to his bail, contrary to the Bail Act 1976, s. 6(1).
He might be willing to cop to that, as he was willing to answer to the rape charges. What he didn't want was for the rape charge to be used for a nefarious excuse to extradite him to the USA and be kept in a windowless cell for the rest of his life.
IIRC the "rape" allegations against him were also suspiciously flimsy. One of them was, I believe, an accusation that consensual sex took place but without the agreed use of a condom, an accusation made by a woman who boasted of her friendship with Assange AFTER the "crime".
I'm no fan of this dude. But you can see why he thought the bizarre rape charges were just a device to get him back to Sweden, whence he could be swiftly whisked to Sing Sing.
"I believe, an accusation that consensual sex took place but without the agreed use of a condom"
Which is a crime in Sweden...
He's been playing games with them, offering to answer an interview in London and then having the Ecuadorians turn the Swedes down.
He increasingly looks not just on the run from the US, but on the run from reality.
Leaving aside that Officials should not have the right to demand to see our papers (or plastic), the information stored would all be on a centralised database, which would be a hackers' wet dream.
We're an island, for ****'s sake. Police the Tunnel properly and check the ports. Surrendering to the illiberal monstrosity of official identity papers to try and stop illegal immigration is demented. It's the modern day equivalent of Baldrick solving the problem of his mother's low ceiling by cutting off her head.
I started checking the interweb for political sites (and found this one, amongst others) in late 2007 when I was deeply worried the cretinous Brown would call and win a snap election, forcing me to either become a law-breaker or submit to the indefensible vileness of ID cards. Any party proposing such an action would lose my vote.
Very well said Mr. Dancer. I agree entirely.
Can I also add my voice to those welcoming JackW back onboard. He has been sorely missed.
It’s relatively easy to sail small (ish) boats across the Channel, and southern N. Sea, and into small harbours which are probably un-guardable.
Mr. T, disagree. Labour could conceivably end, though I doubt it, but if it does another force will take over the mantle of leftyness.
There will always be a hard left, yes. My point is that if Corbyn wins the leadership, and is then calamitously defeated in 2020, the Left will be permanently killed off as a significant force - even within Labour.
The party will revolt at this third crushing defeat and finally purge the commie lunatics, who may slink away and found their own pointless faction.
Either that or Labour will split altogether.
As a Conservative I do worry about this though. I would rather the hard left remain a force and pull Labour left, giving us repeated Tory governments. I don't want a New Labour like party coming back and, while being moderate on economics, still being far left on the EU, multiculturalism, statism and immigration
People will get sick of the Cons, as incumbents, in a few years; they always do.
Thing is, therefore, when that happens, who do you want to be put into power? I can't see any kind of hard left maintaining momentum for the next, say 10 years (students and idealists, after all, grow up..) so it is likely that some kind of free market capitalism-liking New New Lab will emerge. I don't have a problem with that.
Comments
FWIW I now think David would have been the better leader. It is not a hard bar. He would probably not stuck with the blank sheet of paper. He might well have produced a more coherent policy program (it could hardly have been worse). Without being in English his speeches might have been a little more comprehensible. Whether this would have made much difference is hard to say but the Tories only have a small majority so it would not have taken much.
https://medium.com/@bestofthemail/i-was-upvoted-for-posting-nazi-propaganda-about-migrants-in-the-daily-mail-8996899810b4
It does make pb.com seem very civilized by comparison.
That said, I think most political issues he feels less strongly about, and has a politician's ability to jusitfy to himself whatever views political expediency require him to believe. The EU referendum case was a classic case, where I think he changed 180 degrees on his views on the merits of referendums without even realising he had done so. He was kidding himself as much as he was kidding anyone else.
Unlike other nodding donkeys, blindly following the Whips.
'Even if we remain in the wilderness, there would be something clearly honest and wholesome at the centre.'
Sounds more like a religious order than a political party or maybe just trying to put a positive spin on a hopeless position.
Part of me suspects that whether Andy Burnham, Yvette Cooper, Liz Kendall or A.N Other were set to become Labour leader, the Conservatives on here would still be denigrating them at every opportunity - that's politics I suppose and when the selling platers line up for the Conservative Party Leadership Handicap, the rest of us can have a good laugh as well.
More seriously, I struggle with the demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn. He's academic rather than charismatic to this observer and while some of his economic ideas lack credibility, the notion he should be vilified for the company he has kept just seems absurd.
The notion we should never talk to terrorists may be fine for domestic consumption but in the real world, Governments deal with power, not people. The Heath Government negotiated with the IRA and I suspect on many other occasions, either directly or through intermediaries, successive British Governments have had contact with groups we would call "terrorists", quite apart from the despots we have actively supported because they were, so to speak, "our bastard".
Corbyn is right when he argues any long-term resolution in the Middle East has to involve Israel negotiating with Hamas and Hezbollah because they are the power in Palestine and Gaza or at least they are the representatives of the people. To simply pretend such power does not exist and to retreat behind an even bigger fence and shout more loudly is foolish.
Newspapers, bloggers and commentators can argue for that - Governments operate in the real world. None of that pardons or in any way condones the excesses of violence (as again Corbyn states) on one side or all sides.
Let's take IS as an example - they are unquestionably an evil group who use a mixture of religious zealotry and modern marketing to convert susceptible people into embracing a warped version of the Islamic faith which excuses barbarism, cruelty and inhumanity on an unimaginable scale. Yet they are a power and we can't deny that. We therefore have two choices - eradication by force or negotiation to achieve a modus vivendi. Sometimes the options are all or nothing - trying to do neither is a recipe for disaster.
The schools thing, though. Ouch.
To say there's a small minority of vociferous right wingers who read the DM isn't exactly news...
BBC was debating ID Cards - are they an idea that now perhaps we should press on with. We have electoral register, passports, NI numbers.
The introduction would be rocky, costly and I'd prefer it to not be outsourced to Capita or another 3rd party.
They aren't something I'd like to see in an ideal world, but the state and private organisations do hold alot of information. Safeguards such as a policeman not being able to ask for an ID card be produced on demand amongst others should be put in place. Perhaps a quid pro quo such as default NOT being on the OPEN electoral register could be put in place ?
Anyway it seems to be one of the pulls for the UK that you don't need an ID card to find employment that appeals to illegal immigrants... something to ponder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG6fhub9HDQ
The pro-Corbyn side is trying to pretend the argument is about whether or not we should negotiate with bad people. But that wasn't the criticism. The criticism is nit that he wants to do hard-nosed negotiations with them, but sympathises with their ideology and describes them as friends. The man himself has dodged and dodged this criticism to show he is as much an evasive politician as the rest of them.
Agree and that is why there are very few good leaders at present. A good leader also needs a very good No 2 who can be the co-ordinator and unifier. As MT said, "Everyone needs a Willie".
A well-reasoned argument but "eradication by force or negotiation to achieve a modus vivendi. Sometimes the options are all or nothing - trying to do neither is a recipe for disaster."
I'd be interested in how you negotiate a half-way house with a group determined to bring about your death, enslavement or conversion. And that ignores the fun the current inhabitants of the 'Caliphate' face.
Jezza may well agree a truce of some sort - he does have 'useful idiot' stamped on his forehead.
If they aren't compulsory to carry, then we can't use them to validate many things better than current methods. In which case it is difficult to justify the super-database of information they would hold.
If they are compulsory to carry that has other problems.
ID cards are a terrible idea. We have seen how many abuses and leaks of personal danger there has been. Concentrating all this information in one place for hackers to target and for leaks to spread just ups the risks dramatically. Passports and other existing IDs work just fine for employers to check employees. The intrusion is far more egregious than being on the public electoral register, so not much of a quid pro quo, and its not one at all for those of us already opted out.
'Anyway it seems to be one of the pulls for the UK that you don't need an ID card to find employment that appeals to illegal immigrants... something to ponder.'
Agree, if the employment avenue is blocked off for illegal immigrants it would be major deterrent, also might assist in getting rid of the million illegal immigrants that are already here.
" Liz Kendall has caused a bit of a stir among Morning Star readers today. In an article for the left-wing daily, she champions the reported Attlee line: “You will be judged by what you succeed at gentlemen, not by what you attempt”. The paper reports this pitch 'raised eyebrows'.
North East MP Dave Anderson writes for LabourList this morning about why he's supporting Andy Burnham, arguing that the race "comes down to values and leadership", and that "Burnham offers both".
I attended a Jeremy Corbyn rally in Cardiff last night, where around 1,000 people crammed into a 700-seater room. It doesn't seem his campaign's momentum is slowing down at all, and the start of voting is just days away."
Whilst IC is a key part to keeping an organisation focused/coherent/understanding the point of it - it was obvious overmanning/create work because it could.
The IRA murdered people in this country on their own doorsteps and wanted to create a Marxist Ireland (including Ulster). We negotiated with them, as well.
Do IS want to negotiate with anyone ? At the moment, no. They clearly have contacts with some Governments so if they wanted to talk that could be arranged and the time will come when they will want to talk or have to talk - it happens in all these conflicts, in the end Ian Smith was forced to negotiate with Mugabe and Nkomo. There's no point trying to set up moderate halfway houses - they never work - you have to deal with the power whoever holds it.
1. Focus on only calling first the more left leaning members of the political sub. There are 2million to get through so focus on low hanging fruit.
2. Enquire which candidate they are likely to vote for.
3. If they say "voting Corbyn" move straight into registering them but holding back some applications as per OGH article above.
4. If they do not say "voting Corbyn" mark their entry and refer to a convincer who will try and talk them round.
Labour HQ and its past/current Leadership are mugs at handling the Unions. Unite in particular has folk inside Labour HQ.
"Last month President Vladimir Putin endorsed a scheme to bulldoze, bury and burn a whole range of imported Western foods, as part of the ongoing reaction against sanctions the West has imposed on Russia. Videos of the destruction, like the mountain of foreign cheese squashed into the ground in Belgorod, 400 miles (600km) south of Moscow, are now famous.....
Further restrictions on importing Western goods may be on the way, too. Last week Russia's online community reacted to a proposal to ban several medical products - including condoms. The country's former chief sanitary doctor said the move would make people "more disciplined, more strict and discriminating in choosing partners, and maybe will do a favour to our society in respect to solving demographic problems."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-33851990
I think it'll happen here eventually too.
Pol Pot was a mild mannered academic and theoretician ...a killer in the abstract
Heinrich Himmler was a ''mild mannered '' chicken farmer , very much hen pecked by his wife of 7 years his senior ..he really couldn't stand the sight of blood !
How many men in Court for a serious offence have been described as ''very mild mannered ''
Many of the Bolsheviks were mild mannered intellectuals , unfortunately they were also radicals ....''The Kulaks must be liquidated as a class !
Robespierre was mild mannered and introverted too
ID cards are a horrendous nightmare.
Leaving aside that Officials should not have the right to demand to see our papers (or plastic), the information stored would all be on a centralised database, which would be a hackers' wet dream.
We're an island, for ****'s sake. Police the Tunnel properly and check the ports. Surrendering to the illiberal monstrosity of official identity papers to try and stop illegal immigration is demented. It's the modern day equivalent of Baldrick solving the problem of his mother's low ceiling by cutting off her head.
I started checking the interweb for political sites (and found this one, amongst others) in late 2007 when I was deeply worried the cretinous Brown would call and win a snap election, forcing me to either become a law-breaker or submit to the indefensible vileness of ID cards. Any party proposing such an action would lose my vote.
If people are illegally paying cash in hand and not demanding ID already I fail to see how ID cards will change that. We should enforce the laws we already have rather than adding more byzantine measures to cover areas already covered.
Or a Tesco clubcard
I trust the good denizens of OGH's august organ will be tuning into Beeb Two next Monday at 9:00pm.
I most certainly shall be ....
If ID cards will not include any more information than passports, then we can just use passports. If they will include more information, then it's a bigger intrusion into liberty and passports can not be used as an argument.
I personally do not have a Tesco clubcard for entirely these reasons.
Tesco club cards are optional.
State ID cards are not.
The difference between choice and compulsion is the difference between euthanasia and murder, between sex and rape. It's fundamental, not a minor aspect.
Edited extra bit: Huzzah for the return of Mr. W!
I trust you return in good fettle and a sound betting position.
We've been struggling in your absence to make sense of what is happening in the Labour Party.
Just asking...
It's amazing how three months away in a traffic jam in Kent heightens the overall experience of ones modest ramblings on PB.
My Clubcard is opt-in and only produced when I feel like it.
And do you think forcing over 60 million people to have an ID card to catch a tiny number of criminals/illegal immigrants is proportionate? Forcing everyone to wear cameras constantly would help catch criminals too.
The whole reason Salmond ended up with Gordon was that it was available and Banff and Buchan already had an young incumbent he chose not to push aside. It's the exact opposite of the disgraceful carpet bagging Davidson.
I'm torn - I detest this chap, but at least we won't be paying to keep him trapped in the Ecuadorean embassy. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article4524703.ece
welcome back, I hope all is well and you're raring to go on an election forecast should Comrade Corbyn win.
"we were happy to negotiate with both the Nazis ... "
The Nazis were happy to negotiate - they thought they were dealing with a Jezza.
Our conditions were unconditional surrender. Or did Rudolf Hess get lost on a Thomas Cook expedition to Scotland? 'Bloody decades in Spandau, and I never even got a postcard of a Loch.'
"Jeremy Corbyn will never be Prime Minister"
I hope you have enjoyed spending your winnings on Mrs JackW's Bond St forays.
Any predictions as to whether Mr Corbyn will ever be prime minister?
I think that the majority of the Labour selectorate are happy and quite determined to proceed through their "Millwall FC" phase. - The voters don't like us and we don't care.
W il Magnifico.
I've lived in London all my life so I know about the IRA and terror but not like the people of Ulster where it was much more frequent, indiscriminate and no less brutal.
For me, all murder, however, whoever and wherever it happened, is to be condemned and it's regrettable that realpolitik dictates many of these murders have and will go unpunished.
It's worth recalling that Syriza won in Greece, although I'm heartened the British public looked at Ed Miliband and collectively reached the same conclusion as pb.com.
Even our dear @Roger couldn't possibly get a LotO Corbyn prediction for 2020 wrong .... could he ?!?!
Gas bill isn't the type of ID required anyway.
However, as a trend, it looks like the Liberals might as well give up. They are truly finished.
Can I also add my voice to those welcoming JackW back onboard. He has been sorely missed.
Sky: so many trying, the system has crashed.....
They also think the Battle of Zama was a great result for Carthage and their commanding General.
Any party that introduced ID cards would not have my support.
Can anyone explain how ID cards would have stopped the 7/7 bombings.
Which is a crime in Sweden...
He's been playing games with them, offering to answer an interview in London and then having the Ecuadorians turn the Swedes down.
He increasingly looks not just on the run from the US, but on the run from reality.
Likewise, welcome back JackW
Thing is, therefore, when that happens, who do you want to be put into power? I can't see any kind of hard left maintaining momentum for the next, say 10 years (students and idealists, after all, grow up..) so it is likely that some kind of free market capitalism-liking New New Lab will emerge. I don't have a problem with that.
Home Secretary David Blunkett has defended his proposal for a national ID card scheme, saying it could be effective in fighting terrorism.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3656945.stm