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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Don Brind: Why having an “electable” leader matters so much

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  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. T, there was a brilliant drama by the BBC about the Wahnsee conference quite some time ago. It was there that the likes of Heydrich and Eichmann[sp] formulated the Third Reich's answer to the so-called 'Jewish question'.

    I think I deleted the draft, but I was considering posting that it seems to be the rape equivalent of concentration camps.

    Mr. Patrick, indeed. The Conservative problem is that not interrupting their enemies making mistakes appears to mean they can't say enough to Labour for the next four years or so.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Scott_P said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tories are laying off Corbyn now. If they're smart they'll lay off him when he's elected too. Let him ruin Labour all on his own. And then get medieval about a six months out from a GE, pulling up all his awful history, comments, track record, etc. I'm sure they have a little black book sitting on the shelf awaiting its day in the sun.

    I read a press story yesterday that the Tories are already compiling a dossier ready to be published the day he is announced the winner
    The day any one of them is announced the winner.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044

    OchEye said:

    One thought crosses my mind, if Corbyn wins and stands as LotO against Cameron at PMQ's, who of course will do his snooty best to put Corbyn down, who will show up better on the news?

    The comparison of the "honest" man agin the Bullingdon one?

    Should Cameron leave Downing Street, where would the Tories find an honest man to replace him, to spike the popularity of Corbyn?

    If Corbyn wins, the first Ipsos leader satisfaction poll will certainly be interesting.
    He may well have some kind of honeymoon. Ken Clarke is probably right to warn against Tory complacency.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    OchEye said:

    The comparison of the "honest" man agin the Bullingdon one?

    Well, obviously those blinded purely by class prejudice won't favour Cameron, but everyone else will be bemused by the contrast between Corbyn's/Labour's position and what Corbyn has said in the past. On almost any topic you care to name, there are zillions are quotes which can be flung at him. If he maintains his loony-left, anti-British, terrorist-sympathising positions, Cameron will point to what his backbenchers and shadow cabinet members have said about them. If he attempts to wriggle out of his loony-left, anti-British, terrorist-sympathising positions, Cameron will point to what he has said in the past.
    I think in the event of a Corbyn win, Cameron 'flags at half mast for the Saudis' will to be very cautious of trying to attack Corbyn on who is and isn't a terrorist. There is a very fine veil of 'security' and 'patriotism' concealing what is basically a foreign policy of being a US apendage for better or (frequently) for worse, and I don't think he'll want to have that discussion.

    Rubbish.

    Cameron has plenty of room to attack Hezbollah, Hamas, the IRA, Argentina, Milosevic (sp.?), Venezuela and anything else that emerges from 30 years of Corbyn being Corbyn.
    Yes, and whilst I agree that Corbyn's positions on many of these issues are contemptible (I say many, not all), so are many official Government positions, and indeed actions. They get away with it with the collusion of the media by a sort of unspoken code where criticism of 'The West' (a designation that simply lumps us in with the US), and anything 'The West' does is taboo. That unspoken system doesn't work if you're goading someone about it over the Commons floor. We saw how the public was totally against the bombing of Syria. Public consent for our foreign policy is wafer thin.
    Whilst your view is up to you, the politics is not what you think.

    As long as you don't hug a terrorist, foreign policy is priced in. It really is.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Borough, I agree, although Labour are doing their damnedest to lull the Conservatives into an extremely realistic sense of false security.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    Scott_P said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tories are laying off Corbyn now. If they're smart they'll lay off him when he's elected too. Let him ruin Labour all on his own. And then get medieval about a six months out from a GE, pulling up all his awful history, comments, track record, etc. I'm sure they have a little black book sitting on the shelf awaiting its day in the sun.

    I read a press story yesterday that the Tories are already compiling a dossier ready to be published the day he is announced the winner
    Now that would be a mistake, I can't imagine anything the Tories could say that would do more damage than letting Corbyn run the Labour Party. Save it for the general election.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    OchEye said:

    One thought crosses my mind, if Corbyn wins and stands as LotO against Cameron at PMQ's, who of course will do his snooty best to put Corbyn down, who will show up better on the news?

    The comparison of the "honest" man agin the Bullingdon one?

    Should Cameron leave Downing Street, where would the Tories find an honest man to replace him, to spike the popularity of Corbyn?

    If Corbyn wins, the first Ipsos leader satisfaction poll will certainly be interesting.
    He may well have some kind of honeymoon. Ken Clarke is probably right to warn against Tory complacency.
    I'm sure the Labour YG score will soar as the Labour inclined members of the panel's certainty to vote once again diverges strongly from GE reality.

  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    SeanT said:

    taffys said:

    ''Yet it has to be read.''

    Do you think it is worse than, for example, what the Japanese army did to Korean and Chinese 'comfort' women?

    Or what the red army did to German women in 1945?

    In every army since the dawn of time there have been those who maybe ain't so keen on the fighting, but when it comes to f8cking over the beaten locals afterwards, they are right up for it.

    i'm not sure it's "worse" - and in sheer scale the Red Army's rape-krieg through Germany in 45 was much bigger - but there is a peculiarly evil, quietly horrifying quality to ISIS's systematic ritualisation and celebration of rape, as a religous practise and recruiting tool, which makes it especially chilling.

    And the bureaucracy! - the thought of Islamic scholars building a case for mass rape, and then the Islamic lawyers come in and draw contracts for the ownership of rape-slaves. THAT reminds me of the Holocaust. All those German technocrats with wire-rimmed glasses, sitting in dusty offices, working out how to get the trains to Poland.
    One of the most harrowing books I've read was "The Kindly Ones" by Jonathan Littell. It really rams home how pitiless and bureaucratic the Nazi regime was. It couldn't even contrive to keep its slave workers alive even when it was in their own best interest.

    Don't read it Sean, you'll not get any work done for days.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I think its wise to prep for a Jezza leadership as they would do for any other - however, I expect their media friends will do it for them.

    I certainly wouldn't interrupt him for a while.
    glw said:

    Scott_P said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tories are laying off Corbyn now. If they're smart they'll lay off him when he's elected too. Let him ruin Labour all on his own. And then get medieval about a six months out from a GE, pulling up all his awful history, comments, track record, etc. I'm sure they have a little black book sitting on the shelf awaiting its day in the sun.

    I read a press story yesterday that the Tories are already compiling a dossier ready to be published the day he is announced the winner
    Now that would be a mistake, I can't imagine anything the Tories could say that would do more damage than letting Corbyn run the Labour Party. Save it for the general election.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    OchEye said:

    The comparison of the "honest" man agin the Bullingdon one?

    Well, obviously those blinded purely by class prejudice won't favour Cameron, but everyone else will be bemused by the contrast between Corbyn's/Labour's position and what Corbyn has said in the past. On almost any topic you care to name, there are zillions are quotes which can be flung at him. If he maintains his loony-left, anti-British, terrorist-sympathising positions, Cameron will point to what his backbenchers and shadow cabinet members have said about them. If he attempts to wriggle out of his loony-left, anti-British, terrorist-sympathising positions, Cameron will point to what he has said in the past.
    I think in the event of a Corbyn win, Cameron 'flags at half mast for the Saudis' will to be very cautious of trying to attack Corbyn on who is and isn't a terrorist. There is a very fine veil of 'security' and 'patriotism' concealing what is basically a foreign policy of being a US apendage for better or (frequently) for worse, and I don't think he'll want to have that discussion.

    Rubbish.

    Cameron has plenty of room to attack Hezbollah, Hamas, the IRA, Argentina, Milosevic (sp.?), Venezuela and anything else that emerges from 30 years of Corbyn being Corbyn.
    Yes, and whilst I agree that Corbyn's positions on many of these issues are contemptible (I say many, not all), so are many official Government positions, and indeed actions. They get away with it with the collusion of the media by a sort of unspoken code where criticism of 'The West' (a designation that simply lumps us in with the US), and anything 'The West' does is taboo. That unspoken system doesn't work if you're goading someone about it over the Commons floor. We saw how the public was totally against the bombing of Syria. Public consent for our foreign policy is wafer thin.
    Whilst your view is up to you, the politics is not what you think.

    As long as you don't hug a terrorist, foreign policy is priced in. It really is.
    One voter's terrorist is another voter's freedom fighter. Even for the government. Sometimes at the same time: ask the Kurds -- terrorists when Turkey bombs them and leading the fightback against ISIS the rest of the time.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. L, if anyone thinks ISIS are freedom fighters then they're ****ing idiots.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Will Jezza offer it asylum?
    Carrier pigeon carrying cocaine and marijuana in a bag attached to its chest is caught in bizarre plot to smuggle drugs into a Costa Rican prison

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3196687/Carrier-pigeon-carrying-cocaine-marijuana-bag-attached-chest-caught-bizarre-plot-smuggle-drugs-Costa-Rican-prison.html#ixzz3ii5JZGVB
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Miss Plato, I'm not sure asylum for pigeons is a match for free owls.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Patrick said:

    OchEye said:

    Patrick said:

    We are in very dangerous times. To have a loony left leader of the Labour party might suit the Tories, but it would be terrible for the country. The Govt needs to be called to account by someone who can carry his party. Corbyn cannot and will not, it'll be internal strife...

    Bollocks. It's 5 years til the next election. A lefty meltdown and Labour re-emergence with sensible leadership and policies would be good for the party and the country. They need to elect Corbyn and for the left to be proven catastrophic for that to come about. We should all (entryists included :-) ) vote Corbyn and strongly encourage him to be as militant and lefty as possible.
    Er! The SNP consider themselves to be Leftist (not true of course amongst the higher echelons) but to the true believers, heresy is not allowed. Would you call them electorally unsuccessful?
    Ooooh. Hugely different electorate. The Jocks are much leftier than the English. And appealing to both Scotland and England from within a single party looks more and more unachievable. Corbyn might help a minor revival in Scotland. He might double Labour's Scottish MP count in Westminster! BFD - still get them both plus the Libdem and the Tory in a taxi. It's middle England that matters. Nuneaton. Corbyn and hard leftyism would make that gap un-closeable.
    Surprisingly not. The number of people who voted Conservative in Scotland is still very high, just not effective with FPTP.

    We even have a UKIP MEP, something that Sturgeon swore would never happen.

    Once you start checking out the financiers of the SNP, rather than the majority of the supporters, then a more interesting view of the party emerges.

    As to Middle England, just like the North, East, West and South of England, I would suggest that they all felt disenfranchised from the political system and it's politicians, right, left and centre. From what I've read and seen on the TV news, Corbyn's meetings have been filled and sometimes, refilled a couple of times, all over the country.

    You may not like it, but it is beginning to look like a sea change. People are fed up with plastic identikit politicians, spouting identical messages and buzz phrases fed to them by focus teams.

    An honest and sincere person is an novelty. As to his views, well, I gather that Yeshua ben Marium had some that were not particularly popular with the ruling elites. Wonder what happened once he was crucified?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DPJHodges: Lots floating around this @J_Bloodworth Corbyn piece. Seems key issue is did he give money and did he go to rallies. http://t.co/dCCxurocJJ
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Eye, maybe.

    Then again, it could be a horrendously badly designed system wide open to entryism, with Labour MPs moronically lending support to a man they disagree with.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    It'd be skilled immigrant though - and able to get here unaided.

    Miss Plato, I'm not sure asylum for pigeons is a match for free owls.

  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    SeanT said:

    taffys said:

    ''Yet it has to be read.''

    Do you think it is worse than, for example, what the Japanese army did to Korean and Chinese 'comfort' women?

    Or what the red army did to German women in 1945?

    In every army since the dawn of time there have been those who maybe ain't so keen on the fighting, but when it comes to f8cking over the beaten locals afterwards, they are right up for it.

    i'm not sure it's "worse" - and in sheer scale the Red Army's rape-krieg through Germany in 45 was much bigger - but there is a peculiarly evil, quietly horrifying quality to ISIS's systematic ritualisation and celebration of rape, as a religous practise and recruiting tool, which makes it especially chilling.

    And the bureaucracy! - the thought of Islamic scholars building a case for mass rape, and then the Islamic lawyers come in and draw contracts for the ownership of rape-slaves. THAT reminds me of the Holocaust. All those German technocrats with wire-rimmed glasses, sitting in dusty offices, working out how to get the trains to Poland.
    ...and Nick Griffin was taken to court for saying it was happening in South Yorkshire a decade ago... And he was right
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    OchEye said:

    Patrick said:

    OchEye said:

    Patrick said:

    We are in very dangerous times. To have a loony left leader of the Labour party might suit the Tories, but it would be terrible for the country. The Govt needs to be called to account by someone who can carry his party. Corbyn cannot and will not, it'll be internal strife...

    Bollocks. It's 5 years til the next election. A lefty meltdown and Labour re-emergence with sensible leadership and policies would be good for the party and the country. They need to elect Corbyn and for the left to be proven catastrophic for that to come about. We should all (entryists included :-) ) vote Corbyn and strongly encourage him to be as militant and lefty as possible.
    Er! The SNP consider themselves to be Leftist (not true of course amongst the higher echelons) but to the true believers, heresy is not allowed. Would you call them electorally unsuccessful?
    Ooooh. Hugely different electorate. The Jocks are much leftier than the English. And appealing to both Scotland and England from within a single party looks more and more unachievable. Corbyn might help a minor revival in Scotland. He might double Labour's Scottish MP count in Westminster! BFD - still get them both plus the Libdem and the Tory in a taxi. It's middle England that matters. Nuneaton. Corbyn and hard leftyism would make that gap un-closeable.
    Surprisingly not. The number of people who voted Conservative in Scotland is still very high, just not effective with FPTP.

    We even have a UKIP MEP, something that Sturgeon swore would never happen.

    Once you start checking out the financiers of the SNP, rather than the majority of the supporters, then a more interesting view of the party emerges.

    As to Middle England, just like the North, East, West and South of England, I would suggest that they all felt disenfranchised from the political system and it's politicians, right, left and centre. From what I've read and seen on the TV news, Corbyn's meetings have been filled and sometimes, refilled a couple of times, all over the country.

    You may not like it, but it is beginning to look like a sea change. People are fed up with plastic identikit politicians, spouting identical messages and buzz phrases fed to them by focus teams.

    An honest and sincere person is an novelty. As to his views, well, I gather that Yeshua ben Marium had some that were not particularly popular with the ruling elites. Wonder what happened once he was crucified?

    A principled person can be as dangerous as a psychopath.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited August 2015
    OchEye said:

    Patrick said:

    OchEye said:

    Patrick said:

    We are in very dangerous times. To have a loony left leader of the Labour party might suit the Tories, but it would be terrible for the country. The Govt needs to be called to account by someone who can carry his party. Corbyn cannot and will not, it'll be internal strife...

    Bollocks. It's 5 years til the next election. A lefty meltdown and Labour re-emergence with sensible leadership and policies would be good for the party and the country. They need to elect Corbyn and for the left to be proven catastrophic for that to come about. We should all (entryists included :-) ) vote Corbyn and strongly encourage him to be as militant and lefty as possible.
    Er! The SNP consider themselves to be Leftist (not true of course amongst the higher echelons) but to the true believers, heresy is not allowed. Would you call them electorally unsuccessful?
    Ooooh. Hugely different electorate. The Jocks are much leftier than the English. And appealing to both Scotland and England from within a single party looks more and more unachievable. Corbyn might help a minor revival in Scotland. He might double Labour's Scottish MP count in Westminster! BFD - still get them both plus the Libdem and the Tory in a taxi. It's middle England that matters. Nuneaton. Corbyn and hard leftyism would make that gap un-closeable.
    People are fed up with plastic identikit politicians, spouting identical messages and buzz phrases fed to them by focus teams.
    ?
    You might be onto something there - where the election doesn't amount to a whole hill of beans - like for MEPs, Holyrood or a PIIGS goverment subservient to Brussels then people are giving their vote to the wingnuts and fruitbats.

    At our GE however they wanted competence.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    The Jewish Chronicle has found Mr Corbyn reluctant to answer... http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/142144/the-key-questions-jeremy-corbyn-must-answer
    ...If Mr Corbyn is not to be regarded from the day of his election as an enemy of Britain’s Jewish community, he has a number of questions which he must answer in full and immediately. The JC asked him earlier this week to respond. No response has been forthcoming.

    1. Did you donate, as alleged by its founder, to Deir Yassin Remembered (DYR), a group that publishes open antisemtism, run by Holocaust denier Paul Eisen — an organisation so extreme that even the Palestine Solidarity Campaign refuses to associate with it?

    2. Have you, as Mr Eisen claims, regularly attended DYR’s annual conference?

    3. Why have you accepted an invitation to appear at a conference on August 22 alongside Carlos Latuff, the notorious anti-Semitic cartoonist?

    4. Why did you write to the Church of England authorities to defend Rev Stephen Sizer, a vicar banned from social media because of his habit of posting anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, telling them that Rev Sizer was “under attack” because he had “dared to speak out over Zionism”?

    5. Why do you associate with Hamas and Hezbollah and refer to them as your “friends”?

    6. Why have you failed to condemn the anti-Semitic posters and banners that dominate the annual Al-Quds Day rally, sponsored by the Stop The War Coalition, which you chair?

    7. Why did you describe Raead Salah, a man convicted of the blood libel, as an ‘honoured citizen’?

    It is difficult not to see a pattern in Mr Corbyn’s associations, and his refusal at any point to answer the fears of the Jewish community raised by these associations.

    In a nation where, thank heavens, racism and extremism are now regarded as beyond the pale, it is little short of astonishing that a man who chooses to associate with racists and extremists is about to become leader of one of our two main parties and could conceivably become Prime Minister.
    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Lots floating around this @J_Bloodworth Corbyn piece. Seems key issue is did he give money and did he go to rallies. http://t.co/dCCxurocJJ

  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    Plato said:

    The Jewish Chronicle has found Mr Corbyn reluctant to answer... http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/142144/the-key-questions-jeremy-corbyn-must-answer

    ...If Mr Corbyn is not to be regarded from the day of his election as an enemy of Britain’s Jewish community, he has a number of questions which he must answer in full and immediately. The JC asked him earlier this week to respond. No response has been forthcoming.

    1. Did you donate, as alleged by its founder, to Deir Yassin Remembered (DYR), a group that publishes open antisemtism, run by Holocaust denier Paul Eisen — an organisation so extreme that even the Palestine Solidarity Campaign refuses to associate with it?

    2. Have you, as Mr Eisen claims, regularly attended DYR’s annual conference?

    3. Why have you accepted an invitation to appear at a conference on August 22 alongside Carlos Latuff, the notorious anti-Semitic cartoonist?

    4. Why did you write to the Church of England authorities to defend Rev Stephen Sizer, a vicar banned from social media because of his habit of posting anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, telling them that Rev Sizer was “under attack” because he had “dared to speak out over Zionism”?

    5. Why do you associate with Hamas and Hezbollah and refer to them as your “friends”?

    6. Why have you failed to condemn the anti-Semitic posters and banners that dominate the annual Al-Quds Day rally, sponsored by the Stop The War Coalition, which you chair?

    7. Why did you describe Raead Salah, a man convicted of the blood libel, as an ‘honoured citizen’?

    It is difficult not to see a pattern in Mr Corbyn’s associations, and his refusal at any point to answer the fears of the Jewish community raised by these associations.

    In a nation where, thank heavens, racism and extremism are now regarded as beyond the pale, it is little short of astonishing that a man who chooses to associate with racists and extremists is about to become leader of one of our two main parties and could conceivably become Prime Minister.
    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Lots floating around this @J_Bloodworth Corbyn piece. Seems key issue is did he give money and did he go to rallies. http://t.co/dCCxurocJJ



    Jesus Christ.

    Or what the Jewish equivalent is...
  • Well, if they want a leader who is electable they will have to look outside the current candidates. Having said that I can't think of anyone else in the Labour party who is electable other than Frank Field and I am certain they would not choose him.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    Plato said:

    The Jewish Chronicle has found Mr Corbyn reluctant to answer... http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/142144/the-key-questions-jeremy-corbyn-must-answer

    ...If Mr Corbyn is not to be regarded from the day of his election as an enemy of Britain’s Jewish community, he has a number of questions which he must answer in full and immediately. The JC asked him earlier this week to respond. No response has been forthcoming.

    1. Did you donate, as alleged by its founder, to Deir Yassin Remembered (DYR), a group that publishes open antisemtism, run by Holocaust denier Paul Eisen — an organisation so extreme that even the Palestine Solidarity Campaign refuses to associate with it?

    2. Have you, as Mr Eisen claims, regularly attended DYR’s annual conference?

    3. Why have you accepted an invitation to appear at a conference on August 22 alongside Carlos Latuff, the notorious anti-Semitic cartoonist?

    4. Why did you write to the Church of England authorities to defend Rev Stephen Sizer, a vicar banned from social media because of his habit of posting anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, telling them that Rev Sizer was “under attack” because he had “dared to speak out over Zionism”?

    5. Why do you associate with Hamas and Hezbollah and refer to them as your “friends”?

    6. Why have you failed to condemn the anti-Semitic posters and banners that dominate the annual Al-Quds Day rally, sponsored by the Stop The War Coalition, which you chair?

    7. Why did you describe Raead Salah, a man convicted of the blood libel, as an ‘honoured citizen’?

    It is difficult not to see a pattern in Mr Corbyn’s associations, and his refusal at any point to answer the fears of the Jewish community raised by these associations.

    In a nation where, thank heavens, racism and extremism are now regarded as beyond the pale, it is little short of astonishing that a man who chooses to associate with racists and extremists is about to become leader of one of our two main parties and could conceivably become Prime Minister.
    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Lots floating around this @J_Bloodworth Corbyn piece. Seems key issue is did he give money and did he go to rallies. http://t.co/dCCxurocJJ



    I just find it bizarre that a Party that has for decades, as its first line of attack, reached for every -ism in the book with which to bludgeon its opponents, is now going to be presenting as its candidate for PM a man who has those questions to answer.

    The Labour Party must not be taking its schizophrenia meds is all I can think....
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    TGOHF said:

    OchEye said:

    Patrick said:

    OchEye said:

    Patrick said:

    We are in very dangerous times. To have a loony left leader of the Labour party might suit the Tories, but it would be terrible for the country. The Govt needs to be called to account by someone who can carry his party. Corbyn cannot and will not, it'll be internal strife...

    Bollocks. It's 5 years til the next election. A lefty meltdown and Labour re-emergence with sensible leadership and policies would be good for the party and the country. They need to elect Corbyn and for the left to be proven catastrophic for that to come about. We should all (entryists included :-) ) vote Corbyn and strongly encourage him to be as militant and lefty as possible.
    Er! The SNP consider themselves to be Leftist (not true of course amongst the higher echelons) but to the true believers, heresy is not allowed. Would you call them electorally unsuccessful?
    Ooooh. Hugely different electorate. The Jocks are much leftier than the English. And appealing to both Scotland and England from within a single party looks more and more unachievable. Corbyn might help a minor revival in Scotland. He might double Labour's Scottish MP count in Westminster! BFD - still get them both plus the Libdem and the Tory in a taxi. It's middle England that matters. Nuneaton. Corbyn and hard leftyism would make that gap un-closeable.
    People are fed up with plastic identikit politicians, spouting identical messages and buzz phrases fed to them by focus teams.
    ?
    You might be onto something there - where the election doesn't amount to a whole hill of beans - like for MEPs, Holyrood or a PIIGS goverment subservient to Brussels then people are giving their vote to the wingnuts and fruitbats.

    At our GE however they wanted competence.
    I disagree, what people thought what they wanted was not a PM who was being told what to do and think by Nicola Sturgeon. It was a brilliant piece of politics by the Tories, which chimed with the times and was not countered effectively (or at all) by the Labour party machine.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited August 2015
    @bigjohnowls

    5 star hotel in Turkey to ease you back into foreign holidays?

    "Employees at five-star hotel stormed pool with fake guns and fuel cans, six weeks after Tunisia beach massacre

    British holidaymakers staying at the five star resort Grand Yazici Mares in Icmeler, Turkey, were left terrified after staff members staged an Isil-style attack.

    Jason Phythian, 43, was relaxing poolside when a group of men stormed the pool area brandishing fake guns and ‘fuel’ cans. Mr Phythian claims a man dressed in Arab clothing poured a liquid labelled as fuel over his head and then pulled out a lighter.

    “One ran up to me with a bucket with ‘fuel’ written on the side. He threw it over me and got out a cigarette lighter.” "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/11801047/British-tourists-terrified-after-Turkish-hotel-staff-stage-mock-Isil-style-attack.html
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2015
    Just one of them would tie a serious politician in a storm of controversy - but this is a veritable laundry list of horrors.

    EDIT and of course today we've got Yvette managing sexism and racism into a single paragraph. Plus ageism if you're feeling -ismish

    Plato said:

    The Jewish Chronicle has found Mr Corbyn reluctant to answer... http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/142144/the-key-questions-jeremy-corbyn-must-answer

    ...If Mr Corbyn is not to be regarded from the day of his election as an enemy of Britain’s Jewish community, he has a number of questions which he must answer in full and immediately. The JC asked him earlier this week to respond. No response has been forthcoming.

    1. Did you donate, as alleged by its founder, to Deir Yassin Remembered (DYR), a group that publishes open antisemtism, run by Holocaust denier Paul Eisen — an organisation so extreme that even the Palestine Solidarity Campaign refuses to associate with it?

    2. Have you, as Mr Eisen claims, regularly attended DYR’s annual conference?

    3. Why have you accepted an invitation to appear at a conference on August 22 alongside Carlos Latuff, the notorious anti-Semitic cartoonist?

    4. Why did you write to the Church of England authorities to defend Rev Stephen Sizer, a vicar banned from social media because of his habit of posting anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, telling them that Rev Sizer was “under attack” because he had “dared to speak out over Zionism”?

    5. Why do you associate with Hamas and Hezbollah and refer to them as your “friends”?

    6. Why have you failed to condemn the anti-Semitic posters and banners that dominate the annual Al-Quds Day rally, sponsored by the Stop The War Coalition, which you chair?

    7. Why did you describe Raead Salah, a man convicted of the blood libel, as an ‘honoured citizen’?

    It is difficult not to see a pattern in Mr Corbyn’s associations, and his refusal at any point to answer the fears of the Jewish community raised by these associations.

    In a nation where, thank heavens, racism and extremism are now regarded as beyond the pale, it is little short of astonishing that a man who chooses to associate with racists and extremists is about to become leader of one of our two main parties and could conceivably become Prime Minister.
    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Lots floating around this @J_Bloodworth Corbyn piece. Seems key issue is did he give money and did he go to rallies. http://t.co/dCCxurocJJ

    I just find it bizarre that a Party that has for decades, as its first line of attack, reached for every -ism in the book with which to bludgeon its opponents, is now going to be presenting as its candidate for PM a man who has those questions to answer.

    The Labour Party must not be taking its schizophrenia meds is all I can think....

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    OchEye said:

    TGOHF said:

    OchEye said:

    Patrick said:

    OchEye said:

    Patrick said:

    We are in very dangerous times. To have a loony left leader of the Labour party might suit the Tories, but it would be terrible for the country. The Govt needs to be called to account by someone who can carry his party. Corbyn cannot and will not, it'll be internal strife...

    Bollocks. It's 5 years til the next election. A lefty meltdown and Labour re-emergence with sensible leadership and policies would be good for the party and the country. They need to elect Corbyn and for the left to be proven catastrophic for that to come about. We should all (entryists included :-) ) vote Corbyn and strongly encourage him to be as militant and lefty as possible.
    Er! The SNP consider themselves to be Leftist (not true of course amongst the higher echelons) but to the true believers, heresy is not allowed. Would you call them electorally unsuccessful?
    Ooooh. Hugely different electorate. The Jocks are much leftier than the English. And appealing to both Scotland and England from within a single party looks more and more unachievable. Corbyn might help a minor revival in Scotland. He might double Labour's Scottish MP count in Westminster! BFD - still get them both plus the Libdem and the Tory in a taxi. It's middle England that matters. Nuneaton. Corbyn and hard leftyism would make that gap un-closeable.
    People are fed up with plastic identikit politicians, spouting identical messages and buzz phrases fed to them by focus teams.
    ?
    You might be onto something there - where the election doesn't amount to a whole hill of beans - like for MEPs, Holyrood or a PIIGS goverment subservient to Brussels then people are giving their vote to the wingnuts and fruitbats.

    At our GE however they wanted competence.
    I disagree, what people thought what they wanted was not a PM who was being told what to do and think by Nicola Sturgeon. It was a brilliant piece of politics by the Tories, which chimed with the times and was not countered effectively (or at all) by the Labour party machine.
    Perhaps it is much simpler - voters wont support the Labour party due to their staggering ineptness.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Isam, despicable behaviour. One hopes the guests left sharpish, and without paying.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    OchEye said:

    TGOHF said:

    OchEye said:

    Patrick said:

    OchEye said:

    Patrick said:

    We are in very dangerous times. To have a loony left leader of the Labour party might suit the Tories, but it would be terrible for the country. The Govt needs to be called to account by someone who can carry his party. Corbyn cannot and will not, it'll be internal strife...

    Bollocks. It's 5 years til the next election. A lefty meltdown and Labour re-emergence with sensible leadership and policies would be good for the party and the country. They need to elect Corbyn and for the left to be proven catastrophic for that to come about. We should all (entryists included :-) ) vote Corbyn and strongly encourage him to be as militant and lefty as possible.
    Er! The SNP consider themselves to be Leftist (not true of course amongst the higher echelons) but to the true believers, heresy is not allowed. Would you call them electorally unsuccessful?
    Ooooh. Hugely different electorate. The Jocks are much leftier than the English. And appealing to both Scotland and England from within a single party looks more and more unachievable. Corbyn might help a minor revival in Scotland. He might double Labour's Scottish MP count in Westminster! BFD - still get them both plus the Libdem and the Tory in a taxi. It's middle England that matters. Nuneaton. Corbyn and hard leftyism would make that gap un-closeable.
    People are fed up with plastic identikit politicians, spouting identical messages and buzz phrases fed to them by focus teams.
    ?
    You might be onto something there - where the election doesn't amount to a whole hill of beans - like for MEPs, Holyrood or a PIIGS goverment subservient to Brussels then people are giving their vote to the wingnuts and fruitbats.

    At our GE however they wanted competence.
    I disagree, what people thought what they wanted was not a PM who was being told what to do and think by Nicola Sturgeon. It was a brilliant piece of politics by the Tories, which chimed with the times and was not countered effectively (or at all) by the Labour party machine.
    Yes. The Tories won on campaigning, not policy. Maybe in 2020 they will repeat the trick.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    redrose82 said:

    Well, if they want a leader who is electable they will have to look outside the current candidates. Having said that I can't think of anyone else in the Labour party who is electable other than Frank Field and I am certain they would not choose him.

    Quite. The whole we can get an new and electable leader in post in time for 2020 falls when one asks, "Really? Who?"
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    redrose82 said:

    Well, if they want a leader who is electable they will have to look outside the current candidates. Having said that I can't think of anyone else in the Labour party who is electable other than Frank Field and I am certain they would not choose him.

    Frank Field is the Jeremy Corbyn of the right (of the Labour Party): more famous for what he has said than what he has run or achieved. Not to mention his time working for the previous government.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    edited August 2015



    Yes. The Tories won on campaigning, not policy. Maybe in 2020 they will repeat the trick.

    The Tories won on policy by default. Labour didn't offer policy to the electorate. It spent five years having written its name in the top left of the sheet of paper, and then handed that in as its homework.

    And winning on campaigning is winning on campaigning - it is no trick. There were no sleights of hand by the Tories in their manifesto. Which is one reason Labour will have difficulty attacking the Tories this Parliament.

    Another reason is that their leader will be a Leftist loon.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited August 2015

    Labour didn't offer policy to the electorate. It spent five years having written its name in the top left of the sheet of paper, and then handed that in as its homework.

    That's not quite fair. They did write down a few headings and then they crossed them out.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300



    Yes. The Tories won on campaigning, not policy. Maybe in 2020 they will repeat the trick.

    The Tories won on policy by default. Labour didn't offer policy to the electorate. It spent five years having written its name in the top left of the sheet of paper, and then handed that in as its homework.

    And winning on campaigning is winning on campaigning - it is no trick. There were no sleights of hand by the Tories in their manifesto. Which is one reason Labour will have difficulty attacking the Tories this Parliament.

    Another reason is that their leader will be a Leftist loon.
    Yes, but the danger for the Conservatives of not winning on policy is that they might overstep the mark on something that, even if in their manifesto, went unnoticed by the electorate.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    .

    redrose82 said:

    Well, if they want a leader who is electable they will have to look outside the current candidates. Having said that I can't think of anyone else in the Labour party who is electable other than Frank Field and I am certain they would not choose him.

    Frank Field is the Jeremy Corbyn of the right (of the Labour Party): more famous for what he has said than what he has run or achieved. Not to mention his time working for the previous government.
    Jon Cruddas. Wonder why he didn't go for it?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    redrose82 said:

    Well, if they want a leader who is electable they will have to look outside the current candidates. Having said that I can't think of anyone else in the Labour party who is electable other than Frank Field and I am certain they would not choose him.

    A number of my despairing Labour friends are putting their faith in Keir Starmer. It will be a big ask for a guy who has little to no Westminster experience, to put a fractured party back together. But a) he has a Labour-friendly name and b) he has not yet been outed as bat-shit crazy. So that may help him get somewhere.....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961



    Yes. The Tories won on campaigning, not policy. Maybe in 2020 they will repeat the trick.

    The Tories won on policy by default. Labour didn't offer policy to the electorate. It spent five years having written its name in the top left of the sheet of paper, and then handed that in as its homework.

    And winning on campaigning is winning on campaigning - it is no trick. There were no sleights of hand by the Tories in their manifesto. Which is one reason Labour will have difficulty attacking the Tories this Parliament.

    Another reason is that their leader will be a Leftist loon.
    Yes, but the danger for the Conservatives of not winning on policy is that they might overstep the mark on something that, even if in their manifesto, went unnoticed by the electorate.
    Not much to cling to, is it?


  • Yes. The Tories won on campaigning, not policy. Maybe in 2020 they will repeat the trick.

    The Tories won on policy by default. Labour didn't offer policy to the electorate. It spent five years having written its name in the top left of the sheet of paper, and then handed that in as its homework.

    And winning on campaigning is winning on campaigning - it is no trick. There were no sleights of hand by the Tories in their manifesto. Which is one reason Labour will have difficulty attacking the Tories this Parliament.

    Another reason is that their leader will be a Leftist loon.
    Labour did offer policies to the electorate.

    They put all their policies on a great big stone.

    Have you forgotten the EdStone?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    And as we know, you can't campaign successfully if you don't have something that resonates to say.

    Mr Decrepit is determined to believe that it was YouTube or Messina or Reasons that caused the Tories to win, not a basic lack of credibility, popularity or coherence from his own team. They had after all millions of conversations on the doorstep.



    Yes. The Tories won on campaigning, not policy. Maybe in 2020 they will repeat the trick.

    The Tories won on policy by default. Labour didn't offer policy to the electorate. It spent five years having written its name in the top left of the sheet of paper, and then handed that in as its homework.

    And winning on campaigning is winning on campaigning - it is no trick. There were no sleights of hand by the Tories in their manifesto. Which is one reason Labour will have difficulty attacking the Tories this Parliament.

    Another reason is that their leader will be a Leftist loon.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    Plato said:

    The Jewish Chronicle has found Mr Corbyn reluctant to answer... http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/142144/the-key-questions-jeremy-corbyn-must-answer

    ...I
    1. Did you donate, as alleged by its founder, to Deir Yassin Remembered (DYR), a group that publishes open antisemtism, run by Holocaust denier Paul Eisen — an organisation so extreme that even the Palestine Solidarity Campaign refuses to associate with it?

    2. Have you, as Mr Eisen claims, regularly attended DYR’s annual conference?

    3. Why have you accepted an invitation to appear at a conference on August 22 alongside Carlos Latuff, the notorious anti-Semitic cartoonist?

    4. Why did you write to the Church of England authorities to defend Rev Stephen Sizer, a vicar banned from social media because of his habit of posting anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, telling them that Rev Sizer was “under attack” because he had “dared to speak out over Zionism”?

    5. Why do you associate with Hamas and Hezbollah and refer to them as your “friends”?

    6. Why have you failed to condemn the anti-Semitic posters and banners that dominate the annual Al-Quds Day rally, sponsored by the Stop The War Coalition, which you chair?

    7. Why did you describe Raead Salah, a man convicted of the blood libel, as an ‘honoured citizen’?

    It is difficult not to see a pattern in Mr Corbyn’s associations, and his refusal at any point to answer the fears of the Jewish community raised by these associations.

    In a nation where, thank heavens, racism and extremism are now regarded as beyond the pale, it is little short of astonishing that a man who chooses to associate with racists and extremists is about to become leader of one of our two main parties and could conceivably become Prime Minister.
    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Lots floating around this @J_Bloodworth Corbyn piece. Seems key issue is did he give money and did he go to rallies. http://t.co/dCCxurocJJ

    I just find it bizarre that a Party that has for decades, as its first line of attack, reached for every -ism in the book with which to bludgeon its opponents, is now going to be presenting as its candidate for PM a man who has those questions to answer.

    The Labour Party must not be taking its schizophrenia meds is all I can think....

    So what anybody must do is never question Israeli Government Policy as regards anything, else be regarded as anti semitic. Yeah, and Begin to Netanyahu have not been pulling the (heart) strings on that, at all, ever.

    Ever the victim, ever the victim while we in the west play the good Samaritan, sending loads of money, arms and munitions so that the IDF can beat the crap out of anyone they like (or Netanyahu dislikes)

    Even in Israel they think we are stupid for believing that.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Eagles, I think calling the utterances immortalised upon the heaviest suicide note in history 'policies' may be stretching the term beyond breaking point.
  • Mr. Eagles, I think calling the utterances immortalised upon the heaviest suicide note in history 'policies' may be stretching the term beyond breaking point.

    Wait until Corbyn puts his policies on a stone.

    Everyone will be putting up JezStones in the gardens.

    People living in flats will move into houses with gardens just so they can display a JezStone
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @TotalPolitics: After Blair and Campbell, now Gordon Brown prepares to weigh in on Labour’s future http://t.co/oLPMXAx0ht http://t.co/jziWYjxcl8
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    Scott_P said:

    @TotalPolitics: After Blair and Campbell, now Gordon Brown prepares to weigh in on Labour’s future http://t.co/oLPMXAx0ht http://t.co/jziWYjxcl8

    won;t make any difference, this is about burying new labour and dancing on it's grave, and Brown was one of the three main guys in New labour (with Blair and Mandy)
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Plato said:

    The Jewish Chronicle has found Mr Corbyn reluctant to answer... http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/142144/the-key-questions-jeremy-corbyn-must-answer

    ...If Mr Corbyn is not to be regarded from the day of his election as an enemy of Britain’s Jewish community, he has a number of questions which he must answer in full and immediately. The JC asked him earlier this week to respond. No response has been forthcoming.

    1. Did you donate, as alleged by its founder, to Deir Yassin Remembered (DYR), a group that publishes open antisemtism, run by Holocaust denier Paul Eisen — an organisation so extreme that even the Palestine Solidarity Campaign refuses to associate with it?

    2. Have you, as Mr Eisen claims, regularly attended DYR’s annual conference?

    3. Why have you accepted an invitation to appear at a conference on August 22 alongside Carlos Latuff, the notorious anti-Semitic cartoonist?

    4. Why did you write to the Church of England authorities to defend Rev Stephen Sizer, a vicar banned from social media because of his habit of posting anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, telling them that Rev Sizer was “under attack” because he had “dared to speak out over Zionism”?

    5. Why do you associate with Hamas and Hezbollah and refer to them as your “friends”?

    6. Why have you failed to condemn the anti-Semitic posters and banners that dominate the annual Al-Quds Day rally, sponsored by the Stop The War Coalition, which you chair?

    7. Why did you describe Raead Salah, a man convicted of the blood libel, as an ‘honoured citizen’?

    It is difficult not to see a pattern in Mr Corbyn’s associations, and his refusal at any point to answer the fears of the Jewish community raised by these associations.

    In a nation where, thank heavens, racism and extremism are now regarded as beyond the pale, it is little short of astonishing that a man who chooses to associate with racists and extremists is about to become leader of one of our two main parties and could conceivably become Prime Minister.
    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Lots floating around this @J_Bloodworth Corbyn piece. Seems key issue is did he give money and did he go to rallies. http://t.co/dCCxurocJJ



    Why has anyone got to submit to such a self-serving, hysterical, factually-inaccurate, fallacious inquisition?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    I disagree on the policies argument downthread slightly. Labour had policies that were individually popular, indeed George has snaffled the living wage one - but the package presented as a whole lacked credibility.

    Jezza will have this issue on steroids, renationalisation of the railways is quite popular in itself, but the public even in favour of this will look at the whole package and say "No Thanks".
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    I'm not saying it's likely that Corbyn would be received well by the public, but it's a distinct possibility IMO.

    You just have to look at the various anti-Establishment "uprisings" in recent years. In particular, Scottish independence / the SNP. I remember being amused during one of the TV debates on independence last year, amid all the lefty arguments, there were occasionally comments from the audience along the lines of "independence will mean we can stop immigrants coming to Scotland" or "independence will mean we can lock up criminals properly". Essentially, independence was such a clear, undefined break with the status quo, that people of all political views could project their frustrations and hopes onto it. Who's to say Corbyn won't be the same?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961



    Yes. The Tories won on campaigning, not policy. Maybe in 2020 they will repeat the trick.

    The Tories won on policy by default. Labour didn't offer policy to the electorate. It spent five years having written its name in the top left of the sheet of paper, and then handed that in as its homework.

    And winning on campaigning is winning on campaigning - it is no trick. There were no sleights of hand by the Tories in their manifesto. Which is one reason Labour will have difficulty attacking the Tories this Parliament.

    Another reason is that their leader will be a Leftist loon.
    Labour did offer policies to the electorate.

    They put all their policies on a great big stone.

    Have you forgotten the EdStone?
    Who could forget Ed, the cut-price Moses?

    Wasn't exactly anything as pithy as "thou shalt not kill" on Ed's shopping list, was there? Even "though shalt not covet" was clear as day when compared to Ed's offerings.

    Really, Labour should just have said they had a Manifesto - a really good Manifesto, with ideas and everything. You'd have loved it. But the dog ate it....
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. 565, not sure that's a fair comparison. Corbyn isn't going to promote English independence, is he?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @MichaelLCrick: Growing speculation re Gordon Brown speech Edinburgh on Sunday. If to deliver knock-out to Corbyn he must act quickly. Voting starts tmrw.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    taffys said:

    ''Yet it has to be read.''

    Do you think it is worse than, for example, what the Japanese army did to Korean and Chinese 'comfort' women?

    Or what the red army did to German women in 1945?

    In every army since the dawn of time there have been those who maybe ain't so keen on the fighting, but when it comes to f8cking over the beaten locals afterwards, they are right up for it.

    i'm not sure it's "worse" - and in sheer scale the Red Army's rape-krieg through Germany in 45 was much bigger - but there is a peculiarly evil, quietly horrifying quality to ISIS's systematic ritualisation and celebration of rape, as a religous practise and recruiting tool, which makes it especially chilling.

    And the bureaucracy! - the thought of Islamic scholars building a case for mass rape, and then the Islamic lawyers come in and draw contracts for the ownership of rape-slaves. THAT reminds me of the Holocaust. All those German technocrats with wire-rimmed glasses, sitting in dusty offices, working out how to get the trains to Poland.
    ...and Nick Griffin was taken to court for saying it was happening in South Yorkshire a decade ago... And he was right
    I don't think it's the same thing. ISIS are doing it, as SeanT says, with religious justification and Islam-derived governance. The Muslim grooming gangs in the UK do not seem particularly religious. They rape children because of prejudice against white working class kids and cultural misogyny.
  • Danny565 said:

    I'm not saying it's likely that Corbyn would be received well by the public, but it's a distinct possibility IMO.

    You just have to look at the various anti-Establishment "uprisings" in recent years. In particular, Scottish independence / the SNP. I remember being amused during one of the TV debates on independence last year, amid all the lefty arguments, there were occasionally comments from the audience along the lines of "independence will mean we can stop immigrants coming to Scotland" or "independence will mean we can lock up criminals properly". Essentially, independence was such a clear, undefined break with the status quo, that people of all political views could project their frustrations and hopes onto it. Who's to say Corbyn won't be the same?

    I just took part in a poll and said Corbyn would improve Labour's chances of winning the next election

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMTPJ7kW8AAqx9_.jpg
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    China explosion: the second blast was apparently equivalent to the detonation of 21 tons of TNT.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-33901206
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    RodCrosby said:

    Plato said:

    The Jewish Chronicle has found Mr Corbyn reluctant to answer... http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/142144/the-key-questions-jeremy-corbyn-must-answer

    ...If Mr Corbyn is not to be regarded from the day of his election as an enemy of Britain’s Jewish community, he has a number of questions which he must answer in full and immediately. The JC asked him earlier this week to respond. No response has been forthcoming.

    1. Did you donate, as alleged by its founder, to Deir Yassin Remembered (DYR), a group that publishes open antisemtism, run by Holocaust denier Paul Eisen — an organisation so extreme that even the Palestine Solidarity Campaign refuses to associate with it?

    2. Have you, as Mr Eisen claims, regularly attended DYR’s annual conference?

    3. Why have you accepted an invitation to appear at a conference on August 22 alongside Carlos Latuff, the notorious anti-Semitic cartoonist?

    4. Why did you write to the Church of England authorities to defend Rev Stephen Sizer, a vicar banned from social media because of his habit of posting anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, telling them that Rev Sizer was “under attack” because he had “dared to speak out over Zionism”?

    5. Why do you associate with Hamas and Hezbollah and refer to them as your “friends”?

    6. Why have you failed to condemn the anti-Semitic posters and banners that dominate the annual Al-Quds Day rally, sponsored by the Stop The War Coalition, which you chair?

    7. Why did you describe Raead Salah, a man convicted of the blood libel, as an ‘honoured citizen’?

    It is difficult not to see a pattern in Mr Corbyn’s associations, and his refusal at any point to answer the fears of the Jewish community raised by these associations.

    In a nation where, thank heavens, racism and extremism are now regarded as beyond the pale, it is little short of astonishing that a man who chooses to associate with racists and extremists is about to become leader of one of our two main parties and could conceivably become Prime Minister.
    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Lots floating around this @J_Bloodworth Corbyn piece. Seems key issue is did he give money and did he go to rallies. http://t.co/dCCxurocJJ

    Why has anyone got to submit to such a self-serving, hysterical, factually-inaccurate, fallacious inquisition?

    They don't have to answer, but their silence may well be due to anti-semitism.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Mr. 565, not sure that's a fair comparison. Corbyn isn't going to promote English independence, is he?

    Sure, but my point is that when you've got a politician symbolising "things are going to change drastically", people who desperately want "change" of some kind often just project whatever changes they want onto them.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    RodCrosby said:

    Plato said:

    The Jewish Chronicle has found Mr Corbyn reluctant to answer... http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/142144/the-key-questions-jeremy-corbyn-must-answer

    ...If Mr Corbyn is not to be regarded from the day of his election as an enemy of Britain’s Jewish community, he has a number of questions which he must answer in full and immediately. The JC asked him earlier this week to respond. No response has been forthcoming.

    1. Did you donate, as alleged by its founder, to Deir Yassin Remembered (DYR), a group that publishes open antisemtism, run by Holocaust denier Paul Eisen — an organisation so extreme that even the Palestine Solidarity Campaign refuses to associate with it?

    2. Have you, as Mr Eisen claims, regularly attended DYR’s annual conference?

    3. Why have you accepted an invitation to appear at a conference on August 22 alongside Carlos Latuff, the notorious anti-Semitic cartoonist?

    4. Why did you write to the Church of England authorities to defend Rev Stephen Sizer, a vicar banned from social media because of his habit of posting anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, telling them that Rev Sizer was “under attack” because he had “dared to speak out over Zionism”?

    5. Why do you associate with Hamas and Hezbollah and refer to them as your “friends”?

    6. Why have you failed to condemn the anti-Semitic posters and banners that dominate the annual Al-Quds Day rally, sponsored by the Stop The War Coalition, which you chair?

    7. Why did you describe Raead Salah, a man convicted of the blood libel, as an ‘honoured citizen’?

    It is difficult not to see a pattern in Mr Corbyn’s associations, and his refusal at any point to answer the fears of the Jewish community raised by these associations.

    In a nation where, thank heavens, racism and extremism are now regarded as beyond the pale, it is little short of astonishing that a man who chooses to associate with racists and extremists is about to become leader of one of our two main parties and could conceivably become Prime Minister.
    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Lots floating around this @J_Bloodworth Corbyn piece. Seems key issue is did he give money and did he go to rallies. http://t.co/dCCxurocJJ

    Why has anyone got to submit to such a self-serving, hysterical, factually-inaccurate, fallacious inquisition?
    They don't have to answer, but their silence may well be due to anti-semitism.

    Aye, and if he floats, he must be a witch...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    edited August 2015

    Mr. Eagles, I think calling the utterances immortalised upon the heaviest suicide note in history 'policies' may be stretching the term beyond breaking point.

    Wait until Corbyn puts his policies on a stone.

    Everyone will be putting up JezStones in the gardens.

    People living in flats will move into houses with gardens just so they can display a JezStone
    Whole communities will come together to arrange their JezStones into a JezHenge. It will be beautiful....
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    As @ydoethur noted - he is the Jessiah.

    Mr. Eagles, I think calling the utterances immortalised upon the heaviest suicide note in history 'policies' may be stretching the term beyond breaking point.

    Wait until Corbyn puts his policies on a stone.

    Everyone will be putting up JezStones in the gardens.

    People living in flats will move into houses with gardens just so they can display a JezStone

    Mr. Eagles, I think calling the utterances immortalised upon the heaviest suicide note in history 'policies' may be stretching the term beyond breaking point.

    Wait until Corbyn puts his policies on a stone.

    Everyone will be putting up JezStones in the gardens.

    People living in flats will move into houses with gardens just so they can display a JezStone
    Whole communities will come together to arrange their JezStones into a JezHenge. It will be beautiful....
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. 565, the closer comparison is Farage and UKIP.

    Scottish independence is a special case and I do not think it's apt to compare that to a Corbyn-led Labour Party.

    If projection were helpful then Miliband's blank sheet of paper would've helped him. Besides, Corbyn's pretty specific about wanting to nationalise every cat in Britain and set fire to private enterprise.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Scott_P said:

    @MichaelLCrick: Growing speculation re Gordon Brown speech Edinburgh on Sunday. If to deliver knock-out to Corbyn he must act quickly. Voting starts tmrw.

    If there is any expectation that Corbyn might inprove SLABs image with the Scottish voting public, it seems that Brown is out to crush this with his full weight.

    Ridiculously risible choice of venue.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    RodCrosby said:

    Plato said:

    The Jewish Chronicle has found Mr Corbyn reluctant to answer... http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/142144/the-key-questions-jeremy-corbyn-must-answer

    ...If Mr Corbyn is not to be regarded from the day of his election as an enemy of Britain’s Jewish community, he has a number of questions which he must answer in full and immediately. The JC asked him earlier this week to respond. No response has been forthcoming.

    1. Did you donate, as alleged by its founder, to Deir Yassin Remembered (DYR), a group that publishes open antisemtism, run by Holocaust denier Paul Eisen — an organisation so extreme that even the Palestine Solidarity Campaign refuses to associate with it?

    2. Have you, as Mr Eisen claims, regularly attended DYR’s annual conference?

    3. Why have you accepted an invitation to appear at a conference on August 22 alongside Carlos Latuff, the notorious anti-Semitic cartoonist?

    4. Why did you write to the Church of England authorities to defend Rev Stephen Sizer, a vicar banned from social media because of his habit of posting anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, telling them that Rev Sizer was “under attack” because he had “dared to speak out over Zionism”?

    5. Why do you associate with Hamas and Hezbollah and refer to them as your “friends”?

    6. Why have you failed to condemn the anti-Semitic posters and banners that dominate the annual Al-Quds Day rally, sponsored by the Stop The War Coalition, which you chair?

    7. Why did you describe Raead Salah, a man convicted of the blood libel, as an ‘honoured citizen’?

    It is difficult not to see a pattern in Mr Corbyn’s associations, and his refusal at any point to answer the fears of the Jewish community raised by these associations.

    In a nation where, thank heavens, racism and extremism are now regarded as beyond the pale, it is little short of astonishing that a man who chooses to associate with racists and extremists is about to become leader of one of our two main parties and could conceivably become Prime Minister.
    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Lots floating around this @J_Bloodworth Corbyn piece. Seems key issue is did he give money and did he go to rallies. http://t.co/dCCxurocJJ

    Why has anyone got to submit to such a self-serving, hysterical, factually-inaccurate, fallacious inquisition?
    They don't have to answer, but their silence may well be due to anti-semitism.

    Silence may be held to be due to anti-semitism (i.e. the allegations are true). Even in the English criminal courts juries are nowadays allowed to draw inferences from an accused's silence.

    The questions in context seem reasonable enough and should not be difficult to answer and anyone with a clear conscience would, one would think, be happy to do so.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Plato said:

    The Jewish Chronicle has found Mr Corbyn reluctant to answer... http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/142144/the-key-questions-jeremy-corbyn-must-answer

    ...If Mr Corbyn is not to be regarded from the day of his election as an enemy of Britain’s Jewish community, he has a number of questions which he must answer in full and immediately. The JC asked him earlier this week to respond. No response has been forthcoming.

    1. Did you donate, as alleged by its founder, to Deir Yassin Remembered (DYR), a group that publishes open antisemtism, run by Holocaust denier Paul Eisen — an organisation so extreme that even the Palestine Solidarity Campaign refuses to associate with it?

    2. Have you, as Mr Eisen claims, regularly attended DYR’s annual conference?

    3. Why have you accepted an invitation to appear at a conference on August 22 alongside Carlos Latuff, the notorious anti-Semitic cartoonist?

    4. Why did you write to the Church of England authorities to defend Rev Stephen Sizer, a vicar banned from social media because of his habit of posting anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, telling them that Rev Sizer was “under attack” because he had “dared to speak out over Zionism”?

    5. Why do you associate with Hamas and Hezbollah and refer to them as your “friends”?

    6. Why have you failed to condemn the anti-Semitic posters and banners that dominate the annual Al-Quds Day rally, sponsored by the Stop The War Coalition, which you chair?

    7. Why did you describe Raead Salah, a man convicted of the blood libel, as an ‘honoured citizen’?

    It is difficult not to see a pattern in Mr Corbyn’s associations, and his refusal at any point to answer the fears of the Jewish community raised by these associations.

    In a nation where, thank heavens, racism and extremism are now regarded as beyond the pale, it is little short of astonishing that a man who chooses to associate with racists and extremists is about to become leader of one of our two main parties and could conceivably become Prime Minister.
    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Lots floating around this @J_Bloodworth Corbyn piece. Seems key issue is did he give money and did he go to rallies. http://t.co/dCCxurocJJ

    Why has anyone got to submit to such a self-serving, hysterical, factually-inaccurate, fallacious inquisition?
    They don't have to answer, but their silence may well be due to anti-semitism.
    Aye, and if he floats, he must be a witch...

    There is a fair bit of anti-semitism about, as I am sure that you have noticed.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    it seems that Brown is out to crush this with his full weight.

    Those fists were meant for clunkin....'
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Plato said:

    As @ydoethur noted - he is the Jessiah.

    Mr. Eagles, I think calling the utterances immortalised upon the heaviest suicide note in history 'policies' may be stretching the term beyond breaking point.

    Wait until Corbyn puts his policies on a stone.

    Everyone will be putting up JezStones in the gardens.

    People living in flats will move into houses with gardens just so they can display a JezStone

    Mr. Eagles, I think calling the utterances immortalised upon the heaviest suicide note in history 'policies' may be stretching the term beyond breaking point.

    Wait until Corbyn puts his policies on a stone.

    Everyone will be putting up JezStones in the gardens.

    People living in flats will move into houses with gardens just so they can display a JezStone
    Whole communities will come together to arrange their JezStones into a JezHenge. It will be beautiful....
    He is not the Jessiah. He is a very naughty boy.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited August 2015

    Mr. 565, the closer comparison is Farage and UKIP.

    Scottish independence is a special case and I do not think it's apt to compare that to a Corbyn-led Labour Party.

    If projection were helpful then Miliband's blank sheet of paper would've helped him. Besides, Corbyn's pretty specific about wanting to nationalise every cat in Britain and set fire to private enterprise.

    Well, I guess that goes into the big argument about whether people thought Miliband was "too left-wing". In my view, people thought a Miliband government's policies would essentially be the same as the Tories, only with less competence and a more annoying face on the telly for the next 5 years.

    All I'm saying is don't underestimate the appeal that "something drastically different" will have for the MANY people out there who are frustrated with the status quo for one reason or another, even if when it comes to an election fear of change would end up triumphing over the hope.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Just read a pearler of a past quote from the Corbmeister about America being the world's leading terrorist state
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. 565, I agree novelty can be enticing, but if your lady friend says she wants to try something new, and it involves live-streaming ********** then you get the hell out.

    Nationalise everything, abandon NATO, snuggle up to the Russian bear, Valentine's cards for Hamas and Hezbollah: these are a few of his favourite things. But I doubt they'll make the electorate go all gooey.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    JEO said:

    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    taffys said:

    ''Yet it has to be read.''

    Do you think it is worse than, for example, what the Japanese army did to Korean and Chinese 'comfort' women?

    Or what the red army did to German women in 1945?

    In every army since the dawn of time there have been those who maybe ain't so keen on the fighting, but when it comes to f8cking over the beaten locals afterwards, they are right up for it.

    i'm not sure it's "worse" - and in sheer scale the Red Army's rape-krieg through Germany in 45 was much bigger - but there is a peculiarly evil, quietly horrifying quality to ISIS's systematic ritualisation and celebration of rape, as a religous practise and recruiting tool, which makes it especially chilling.

    And the bureaucracy! - the thought of Islamic scholars building a case for mass rape, and then the Islamic lawyers come in and draw contracts for the ownership of rape-slaves. THAT reminds me of the Holocaust. All those German technocrats with wire-rimmed glasses, sitting in dusty offices, working out how to get the trains to Poland.
    ...and Nick Griffin was taken to court for saying it was happening in South Yorkshire a decade ago... And he was right
    I don't think it's the same thing. ISIS are doing it, as SeanT says, with religious justification and Islam-derived governance. The Muslim grooming gangs in the UK do not seem particularly religious. They rape children because of prejudice against white working class kids and cultural misogyny.
    It is the same thing. Griffin didn't say that it was the cause of the South Yorkshire abuse but that the Koran could be interpreted by certain young Muslims to justify rape

    http://youtu.be/6uyU3dfd3pE
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    taffys said:

    Just read a pearler of a past quote from the Corbmeister about America being the world's leading terrorist state

    I though that was Chomsky:

    http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/27201-the-leading-terrorist-state#
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited August 2015

    Mr. 565, I agree novelty can be enticing, but if your lady friend says she wants to try something new, and it involves live-streaming ********** then you get the hell out.

    Nationalise everything, abandon NATO, snuggle up to the Russian bear, Valentine's cards for Hamas and Hezbollah: these are a few of his favourite things. But I doubt they'll make the electorate go all gooey.

    He'll get Luckguy's vote.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Plato said:
    Interesting that Spain, Portugal and Italy are most keen on further integration. Clearly the experience of Greece has not put them off.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    justin124 said:

    TGOHF said:

    OchEye said:

    watford30 said:

    JEO said:

    The real problem Labour have is that the defeat was unexpected, meaning the conversation about what has gone wrong has barely started by the time of the leadership election. Labour voters are basing their votes on their anger and frustration at losing, rather than a thoughtful digestion of research.

    Harman should have delayed the leadership election until such time as Labour had worked out where it had gone wrong, licked it's wounds and found the right time to move on. She bears a fair amount of responsibility for this mess.
    A little unfair imho – HH was left holding the baby when Ed walked away from his mess and leaving a flawed leadership contest in his wake. – No one within Labour anticipated a Corbyngasm because he should never have been on the list to start with.
    Leftist politics is beginning to sweep across Europe and the USA (Bernie Sanders' rallies are drawing greater crowds than the other Presidential hopefulls put together).
    Really ?

    Hollande - would lose an election against himself
    Syriza - scuppered
    Podemos - peaked and diving in the polls
    Beppe Grillo - who ?
    Nats - state sponsors of music festivals, puritanism and proposing a single national school uniform

    Meanwhile the Uk forges ahead with a booming economy..
    A booming economy with rising unemployment! Growth of 2.5% per annum is well short of that - circa 4% would be another matter.
    So off message ....
    you forgot to mention triple dip recession and only 2.4 nanoseconds to save the NHS
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Miss Plato, are Cooper and Burnham competing in a post-modern satire of political posters? Surely that's not real?

    Mr. 30, terribly sorry but I don't get the reference.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited August 2015

    Plato said:
    Interesting that Spain, Portugal and Italy are most keen on further integration. Clearly the experience of Greece has not put them off.
    They are simply dependent of EU funds to keep them afloat, for them more integration means more EU funds for them to skim.

    I know quite a few in southern europe that have said to me their dream is to open a small business to steal EU development funds.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    edited August 2015


    There is a fair bit of anti-semitism about, as I am sure that you have noticed.

    Since almost any criticism of Israel or of a Jew is dubbed "anti-semitism", forgive me if I am not impressed by your profound observation.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Danny565 said:

    Mr. 565, the closer comparison is Farage and UKIP.

    Scottish independence is a special case and I do not think it's apt to compare that to a Corbyn-led Labour Party.

    If projection were helpful then Miliband's blank sheet of paper would've helped him. Besides, Corbyn's pretty specific about wanting to nationalise every cat in Britain and set fire to private enterprise.

    Well, I guess that goes into the big argument about whether people thought Miliband was "too left-wing". In my view, people thought a Miliband government's policies would essentially be the same as the Tories, only with less competence and a more annoying face on the telly for the next 5 years.

    All I'm saying is don't underestimate the appeal that "something drastically different" will have for the MANY people out there who are frustrated with the status quo, even if when it comes to an election fear of change would end up triumphing over the hope.
    You are right, Mr. 565, but I think you underestimate how bad things have to get before the English electorate will allow for hope in change to override their desire for comforting continuity. In modern times I think it has only happened two, possibly two and a half-times.

    The first was in 1945, when the war years and the determination not to be taken back to the conditions of the 1930s saw a massive out-pouring of a desire for a new start. (am opportunity which Atlee's government totally fecked up in my view).

    The second was in 1979, the Country had hit rock bottom and people knew it was time for a change of direction.

    The half time I would say was 1997. People were very fed up with the Conservatives but Blair and his crew went a long way out of their way to assure everyone that in the essentials not much would change, even to Brown continuing with Ken Clarkes spending plans.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Plato said:

    The Jewish Chronicle has found Mr Corbyn reluctant to answer... http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/142144/the-key-questions-jeremy-corbyn-must-answer

    ...If Mr Corbyn is not to be regarded from the day of his election as an enemy of Britain’s Jewish community, he has a number of questions which he must answer in full and immediately. The JC asked him earlier this week to respond. No response has been forthcoming.

    1. Did you donate, as alleged by its founder, to Deir Yassin Remembered (DYR), a group that publishes open antisemtism, run by Holocaust denier Paul Eisen — an organisation so extreme that even the Palestine Solidarity Campaign refuses to associate with it?

    2. Have you, as Mr Eisen claims, regularly attended DYR’s annual conference?

    3. Why have you accepted an invitation to appear at a conference on August 22 alongside Carlos Latuff, the notorious anti-Semitic cartoonist?

    4. Why did you write to the Church of England authorities to defend Rev Stephen Sizer, a vicar banned from social media because of his habit of posting anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, telling them that Rev Sizer was “under attack” because he had “dared to speak out over Zionism”?

    5. Why do you associate with Hamas and Hezbollah and refer to them as your “friends”?

    6. Why have you failed to condemn the anti-Semitic posters and banners that dominate the annual Al-Quds Day rally, sponsored by the Stop The War Coalition, which you chair?

    7. Why did you describe Raead Salah, a man convicted of the blood libel, as an ‘honoured citizen’?

    It is difficult not to see a pattern in Mr Corbyn’s associations, and his refusal at any point to answer the fears of the Jewish community raised by these associations.

    In a nation where, thank heavens, racism and extremism are now regarded as beyond the pale, it is little short of astonishing that a man who chooses to associate with racists and extremists is about to become leader of one of our two main parties and could conceivably become Prime Minister.
    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Lots floating around this @J_Bloodworth Corbyn piece. Seems key issue is did he give money and did he go to rallies. http://t.co/dCCxurocJJ

    Why has anyone got to submit to such a self-serving, hysterical, factually-inaccurate, fallacious inquisition?
    They don't have to answer, but their silence may well be due to anti-semitism.
    Aye, and if he floats, he must be a witch...
    There is a fair bit of anti-semitism about, as I am sure that you have noticed.

    You are relatively new here, Doc, so you may not know that Mr. Crosby is the site's foremost expert on anti-semitism.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Llama, hasn't Mr. Foxinsox been here for ages?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    RodCrosby said:


    There is a fair bit of anti-semitism about, as I am sure that you have noticed.

    Since almost any criticism of Israel or of a Jew is dubbed "anti-semitism", forgive me if I am not impressed by your profound observation.
    I think it's best to separate criticism of the Israeli government from criticism of the jewish faith.
    I for once was against Netanyahu's pre-election promises to restrict civil and political rights for non jews living in Israel, doesn't make me an anti-semite.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Don't know if anyone else has commented on this, but the BBC is up to its old tricks on its news website. On the UK Politics page, apparently Corbyn has plans for the UK, while Burnham and Cooper have visions, and Kendall simply has what she would do.

    I don't know if it is just me, but plans are considered and detailed, visions are big picture and nothing more, and 'what one would do" is how you would react if your car ran out of petrol on a busy road.

    Looks like al Beeb is backing Corbyn to me.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    edited August 2015
    Plato said:
    That is so bad - the Y turned into a tick for Yvette? Ugh. We certainly won't be entering a Golden Age of Graphic Design under Mrs. Balls.

    I suppose we should be grateful she didn't replace the "e"s in her name with Smilies.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    PB is a broad church O_o

    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    Plato said:

    The Jewish Chronicle has found Mr Corbyn reluctant to answer... http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/142144/the-key-questions-jeremy-corbyn-must-answer

    .snipped

    1. Did you donate, as alleged by its founder, to Deir Yassin Remembered (DYR), a group that publishes open antisemtism, run by Holocaust denier Paul Eisen — an organisation so extreme that even the Palestine Solidarity Campaign refuses to associate with it?

    2. Have you, as Mr Eisen claims, regularly attended DYR’s annual conference?

    3. Why have you accepted an invitation to appear at a conference on August 22 alongside Carlos Latuff, the notorious anti-Semitic cartoonist?

    4. Why did you write to the Church of England authorities to defend Rev Stephen Sizer, a vicar banned from social media because of his habit of posting anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, telling them that Rev Sizer was “under attack” because he had “dared to speak out over Zionism”?

    5. Why do you associate with Hamas and Hezbollah and refer to them as your “friends”?

    6. Why have you failed to condemn the anti-Semitic posters and banners that dominate the annual Al-Quds Day rally, sponsored by the Stop The War Coalition, which you chair?

    7. Why did you describe Raead Salah, a man convicted of the blood libel, as an ‘honoured citizen’?

    It is difficult not to see a pattern in Mr Corbyn’s associations, and his refusal at any point to answer the fears of the Jewish community raised by these associations.

    In a nation where, thank heavens, racism and extremism are now regarded as beyond the pale, it is little short of astonishing that a man who chooses to associate with racists and extremists is about to become leader of one of our two main parties and could conceivably become Prime Minister.
    Scott_P said:

    @DPJHodges: Lots floating around this @J_Bloodworth Corbyn piece. Seems key issue is did he give money and did he go to rallies. http://t.co/dCCxurocJJ

    Why has anyone got to submit to such a self-serving, hysterical, factually-inaccurate, fallacious inquisition?
    They don't have to answer, but their silence may well be due to anti-semitism.
    Aye, and if he floats, he must be a witch...
    There is a fair bit of anti-semitism about, as I am sure that you have noticed.
    You are relatively new here, Doc, so you may not know that Mr. Crosby is the site's foremost expert on anti-semitism.

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401
    Danny565 said:

    Mr. 565, the closer comparison is Farage and UKIP.

    Scottish independence is a special case and I do not think it's apt to compare that to a Corbyn-led Labour Party.

    If projection were helpful then Miliband's blank sheet of paper would've helped him. Besides, Corbyn's pretty specific about wanting to nationalise every cat in Britain and set fire to private enterprise.

    Well, I guess that goes into the big argument about whether people thought Miliband was "too left-wing". In my view, people thought a Miliband government's policies would essentially be the same as the Tories, only with less competence and a more annoying face on the telly for the next 5 years.

    All I'm saying is don't underestimate the appeal that "something drastically different" will have for the MANY people out there who are frustrated with the status quo for one reason or another, even if when it comes to an election fear of change would end up triumphing over the hope.
    The problem will not be 'fear of change' per se; it will be fear of the specific change on offer.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    edited August 2015
    And that photo? She looks like she has just been told she came 4th, with 19 votes....
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:


    ydoethur said:
    » show previous quotes
    '
    Justin, whatever the manifold and egregious faults of Tony Blair and George W. Bush, they were not mass killers bent on world domination and the genocide of racial groups they didn't approve of. It was perfectly possible to disagree flatly with their ideas and behaviour - I did - and it is possible to see them as hopelessly misguided and very unwise, but they are not actually evil to the extent that would justify taking up arms against them or working to sabotage or imperil our own armed forces.

    EDIT - and strange to reflect that the only person I met who fully supported the invasion was actually a Communist, who had been a great admirer of Khrushchev and regarded the Second Gulf War as a fully justified strike against an evil Fascist dictator'

    .I agree with most of that - but would not wish to see aggression by any country prevail. To condemn other countries for aggression and then proceed to turn a blind eye and say nothing when my own country does the same thing is nothing less than pure humbug and hypocrisy. For that reason, I wished to see the invading forces defeated in 2003. I did not wish UK forces any direct harm but any casualties I blame entirely on those who sent them there -a sentiment clearly shared by many relatives of the victims. At the end of the day, those being attacked had every right to defend themselves

    Where were you when Saddam was bombing and gassing his own country's citizens? Where were you when he was misusing specific UN aid and allowing his own citizen's children to starve and die instead.
    In short where were you when Saddam was breaking the terms of the ceasefire he signed after the Gulf War - where of course he had invaded and occupied Kuwait.
    I don't know where you were - on holiday in Corbynland I suppose - but I despise you for wanting to see UK soldiers defeated.
    Ok - and had you been a German in the early 1940s doubtless you would have despised any fellow German wishing to see the Wehrmacht defeated in the interests of humanity. Some of us do not make a moral distinction between people on the basis of nationality.
    Just catching up with the thread, so sorry for the late comment, but I can't let that pass.

    I was (and remain) against the Iraq war, but you cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, make an equal comparison between UK forces invading Iraq and the Wehrmacht in World War 2.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    MTimT said:

    Don't know if anyone else has commented on this, but the BBC is up to its old tricks on its news website. On the UK Politics page, apparently Corbyn has plans for the UK, while Burnham and Cooper have visions, and Kendall simply has what she would do.

    I don't know if it is just me, but plans are considered and detailed, visions are big picture and nothing more, and 'what one would do" is how you would react if your car ran out of petrol on a busy road.

    Looks like al Beeb is backing Corbyn to me.

    It won't make a difference if the BBC is backing Corbyn or not, when clearly the other 3 are so rubbish, and in the case of Cooper her own poster agrees with me.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    Plato said:
    That is so bad - the Y turned into a tick for Yvette? Ugh. We certainly won't be entering a Golden Age of Graphic Design under Mrs. Balls.

    I suppose we should be grateful she didn't replace the "e"s in her name with Smilies.
    The 'Agree/Share' box is a nice touch.

    'Yes, I agree that Yvette is Rubbish'. And will now share that fact with my Corbyn voting friends.

    Seriously, these people are utterly incompetent.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @guardian_clark: The Gdn view: Corbyn has shaped the campaign, Cooper can shape the future: http://t.co/bfn94DSZXJ
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Mr. Llama, hasn't Mr. Foxinsox been here for ages?

    Yes, but I don't think he was around during certain times.

    Anyway, what's this you mentioned about Corbyn wanting to nationalise cats? Does that mean HMG will pay for the creatures' food. If so I think he may be onto something. I had to go shopping this afternoon as Herself was busy but she left me a list. On that list was go to Waitrose for: prawns, salmon flakes and a roast chicken. All it turns out for the cat.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I'm still laughing at the thought of YV :smiley: TT :smiley:

    And that photo? She looks like she has just been told she came 4th, with 19 votes....

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401
    On topic, difficult to disagree with anything Don's written. However, it's not just the Labour membership / supporters to blame. None of the candidates looks particularly electable. In such circumstances you can understand the membership going for the one that at least has some passion.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Danny565 said:
    These are my principles. If you don't like them... I have others.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Llama, I may have exaggerated Corbyn's nationalising fetish.

    Or maybe not. We'll see what he announces next.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Disraeli said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:


    ydoethur said:
    » show previous quotes
    '
    Justin, whatever the manifold and egregious faults of Tony Blair and George W. Bush, they were not mass killers bent on world domination and the genocide of racial groups they didn't approve of. It was perfectly possible to disagree flatly with their ideas and behaviour - I did - and it is possible to see them as hopelessly misguided and very unwise, but they are not actually evil to the extent that would justify taking up arms against them or working to sabotage or imperil our own armed forces.

    EDIT - and strange to reflect that the only person I met who fully supported the invasion was actually a Communist, who had been a great admirer of Khrushchev and regarded the Second Gulf War as a fully justified strike against an evil Fascist dictator'

    .I agree with most of that - but would not wish to see aggression by any country prevail. To condemn other countries for aggression and then proceed to turn a blind eye and say nothing when my own country does the same thing is nothing less than pure humbug and hypocrisy. For that reason, I wished to see the invading forces defeated in 2003. I did not wish UK forces any direct harm but any casualties I blame entirely on those who sent them there -a sentiment clearly shared by many relatives of the victims. At the end of the day, those being attacked had every right to defend themselves

    Where were you when Saddam was bombing and gassing his own country's citizens? Where were you when he was misusing specific UN aid and allowing his own citizen's children to starve and die instead.
    In short where were you when Saddam was breaking the terms of the ceasefire he signed after the Gulf War - where of course he had invaded and occupied Kuwait.
    I don't know where you were - on holiday in Corbynland I suppose - but I despise you for wanting to see UK soldiers defeated.
    Ok - and had you been a German in the early 1940s doubtless you would have despised any fellow German wishing to see the Wehrmacht defeated in the interests of humanity. Some of us do not make a moral distinction between people on the basis of nationality.
    Just catching up with the thread, so sorry for the late comment, but I can't let that pass.

    I was (and remain) against the Iraq war, but you cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, make an equal comparison between UK forces invading Iraq and the Wehrmacht in World War 2.
    Well one can make it, but only about Case Blue, which was about taking the oil fields:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_Blue

    So if you think that the objective of invading Iraq was all about the oil, then you can make that assumption.
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