Cameron can't lose - he either increases his majority against the imploding Labour party or drives off into the sunset having imploded the Labour party and whipped the Nats in the referendum putting the issue to bed until 2035.
'Tory MP Zac Goldsmith, frontrunner in the group seeking the Conservative London mayoral nomination, has warned the “glee” of his party colleagues at the prospect of Jeremy Corbyn becoming Labour Party leader is “totally misplaced”. He said Corbyn could somehow capture the “zeitgeist” and ride the wave of support that confounded his critics, leading Britain into “very dangerous terrain”.'
Shows how out of touch Goldsmith is with most of the country. He could still be in touch with opinion in London of course, since the capital is so out of line with the rest of the country these days.
@krishgm: Gordon Brown will make a speech on "Power for a Purpose" on sunday - I wonder what he means...
It's a typo. It should be Power For A Porpoise. Brown is a well known lackey in the pay of the dolphin and porpoise lobby. (makes as much sense as anything Gordo might say).
Jeremy Corbyn has launched his 10-point policy plan in Glasgow as he promises a "new kind of politics" if he wins the Labour leadership contest.
A copy is being sent to all Labour members in a bid to secure their vote as the party sends out the first ballot papers. http://www.itv.com/news/2015-08-14/jeremy-corbyn-promises-new-kind-of-politics-as-he-unveils-10-point-policy-plan/ The "Standing to Deliver"policies include: Growth not austerity – with a national investment bank to help create tomorrow's jobs and reduce the deficit fairly. Fair taxes for all. A lower welfare bill through investment and growth Action on climate change Public ownership of railways and in the energy sector Decent homes for all in public and private sectors by 2025 through a big house-building programme and controlling rents. A foreign policy that prioritises justice and assistance. Fully-funded NHS, integrated with social care, with an end to privatisation in health. Protection at work including an end to zero hours contracts Equality for all A life-long national education service for decent skills and opportunities, universal childcare, the abolition of student fees, restoring grants, and funding adult skills training.
Cameron is no Margaret Thatcher. After 15 years as Tory leader and 10 years as PM, he will move on.
He himself has said he doesn't enjoy the job, but it's a huge privilege and honour.
He didn't enjoy being PM in a Coalition. He looks a lot happier now, and with good reason.
He has it easy right now because he's in a honeymoon period and he's vanquished all his enemies. Labour have formed a circular firing squad, UKIP have become a farce and the Liberal Democrats obliterated. He's also starting to get the measure of the SNP. Whereas once he was once the Tory PM who never really 'won' - a bit of a loser - now he's master of all he surveys. His place in history has totally changed.
Wouldn't you be happy with that?
But he is still in coalition, this time with his own party, and it won't last forever. He's normal enough to care about other things as well as politics, and probably cares more for his family and friends anyway, and young enough to do something else.
I think this is another misreading of the situation, even worse than the one DH fesses up to. The unions are absolutely manipulating the present situation. They've read the situation early and are keeping their heads down just like the Tories; the unions (with Len calling the shots) because it is central to their strategy and the Tories 'cos to do otherwise would be foolish. As I see it, union strategy is to control an established political party (even a much reduced one) and take it from there. Even if that's what they stick at then that's much much better than what they've got at present. They can see that England at least is largely unsympathetic to the (largely public sector populated) unions so union controlled government is not on the agenda.
Re political levy - just spotted this in the Hodges piece
Nor will it end there. The Conservatives – ever with an eye for the main chance – have borrowed the principle of Labour’s rule change and inserted it into the new Trade Union Bill. Any trade unionist who wants their money to be paid into the their union’s political levy – which is then used to finance the Labour Party – will have to proactively sign a form to that effect every five years. And it’s now possible to judge how many trade union members will bother to sign up in this way. Around 180,000. That compares with 4.5 million members who pay the levy now. Labour is about to lose 95 per cent of the income it receives from the unions. At precisely the same time it is about to elect Jeremy Corbyn as its leader. I don’t know how much Jeremy Corbyn is planning to secure for Labour in major corporate donations. But I can hazard a guess.
I don't understand this stuff about "how will Corbyn control his MPs?" That might be relevant if Labour were in government, and moderates were being asked to vote on very left-wing bills, but in Opposition it's a binary choice between accepting right-wing Tory legislation or not, which moderates won't have a problem with.
(And in any case, the grassroots will have something to say if rebel Labour MPs start making the difference between govt wins and defeats in Parliament.)
What if the Tories come up with popular legislation though which some Labour MPs would support? e.g. a bill taking action on the migrant crisis. Osborne will no doubt be looking for ways to make sure the media is talking about Labour splits.
Calum S @CalumSPlath Aug 13 "It is a long overdue reform & something I wish I could have done myself": Tony Blair, Feb 2014, on Labour leadership election reform
Jeremy Corbyn has launched his 10-point policy plan in Glasgow as he promises a "new kind of politics" if he wins the Labour leadership contest.
A copy is being sent to all Labour members in a bid to secure their vote as the party sends out the first ballot papers. http://www.itv.com/news/2015-08-14/jeremy-corbyn-promises-new-kind-of-politics-as-he-unveils-10-point-policy-plan/ The "Standing to Deliver"policies include: Growth not austerity – with a national investment bank to help create tomorrow's jobs and reduce the deficit fairly. Fair taxes for all. A lower welfare bill through investment and growth Action on climate change Public ownership of railways and in the energy sector Decent homes for all in public and private sectors by 2025 through a big house-building programme and controlling rents. A foreign policy that prioritises justice and assistance. Fully-funded NHS, integrated with social care, with an end to privatisation in health. Protection at work including an end to zero hours contracts Equality for all A life-long national education service for decent skills and opportunities, universal childcare, the abolition of student fees, restoring grants, and funding adult skills training.
The people's flag is palest pink It's not the colour you might think White collar workers stand and cheer The Labour government is here
We'll change the country bit by bit So nobody will notice it And just to show that we're sincere We'll sing The Red Flag once a year
The cloth cap and the woolen scarf Are images outdated For we're the party's avant garde And we are educated
So raise the rolled umbrella high The college scarf, the old school tie And just to show that we're sincere We'll sing The Red Flag once a year
Three letters. P. P. E.
Followed by an Oxon.
I also quite like various historic versions,
The workers' flag is palest pink Since Gaitskell dipped it in the sink Now Harold's done the same as Hugh The workers' flag is brightest blue.
Or more recently,
New Labour's flag is palest pink It's not as red as you might think And Tony's added shades of blue He does not care for me and you
The latter could by the Corbynista anthem.
There's a pretty well-known American parody called "The Foreman's Job" which I've always thought was quite funny, but also goes a long way to explaining why Americans don't "do" socialism, or at least not by that word. No idea where I first heard it but it must have been around for a while.
The working class can kiss my ass I've got the foreman's job at last The system I'll no more resist I'm going to be a capitalist
Now you can raise the standard high Beneath its shade to fight and die But brother, please don't count on me I've up and joined the bourgeoisie
(There is also an alternative version I'd not heard of before, replacing "the system.." line with "The working class can kiss my ass "You can tell old Joe I'm off the dole, He can stick the Red Flag up his 'ole" - but presumably that's an older - 40s? 50s? - version.)
There is also this version, courtesy of The Liberator Songbook, sometimes sung at the Lib Dem Glee Club:
The people's flag is slightly pink It's not as red as most folk think We must not let the people know What socialists thought long ago.
Chorus: Don't let the scarlet banner float We want the middle classes vote Let our old-fashioned comrades sneer We'll stay in power for many a year.
The people’s flag is brightest white It leads the way through day and night Encapsulating purity Unsullied by reality
We do not care that Tories rule We’ll bang and shout and play the fool For compromise is what we fear: We’ll keep the white flag flying here.
Calum S @CalumSPlath Aug 13 "It is a long overdue reform & something I wish I could have done myself": Tony Blair, Feb 2014, on Labour leadership election reform
Chortle...
The Labour election process of votes for members is indeed sensible. Its been enacted quite irrationally however. There was no normal way that a fruit loop boneheaded pratt like Corbyn should have even been in a position to get nominated and if Labour want to let in entryists to pervert their party then thats up to them. Oh and the AV system is perverse as well. The tories have the best process to achieve a plurality and also someone with support of MPs - it is the MPs whose job is to govern after all.
Cameron is no Margaret Thatcher. After 15 years as Tory leader and 10 years as PM, he will move on.
He himself has said he doesn't enjoy the job, but it's a huge privilege and honour.
He didn't enjoy being PM in a Coalition. He looks a lot happier now, and with good reason.
He has it easy right now because he's in a honeymoon period and he's vanquished all his enemies. Labour have formed a circular firing squad, UKIP have become a farce and the Liberal Democrats obliterated. He's also starting to get the measure of the SNP. Whereas once he was once the Tory PM who never really 'won' - a bit of a loser - now he's master of all he surveys. His place in history has totally changed.
Wouldn't you be happy with that?
But he is still in coalition, this time with his own party, and it won't last forever. He's normal enough to care about other things as well as politics, and probably cares more for his family and friends anyway, and young enough to do something else.
He'll go out on a high.
All very fair. But you presume he will stay sane. In the end they mostly go mad. Thatcher, Blair, Brown - all went postal by the end of their tenure (Brown was mad before he even moved in to Number 10). The madness gives them a messiah complex, and they cling on, believing only they are fit to rule the country. Cf Churchill, de Gaulle, and many others abroad.
Is Cameron uniquely insulated from the craziness that infects so many PMs? Hmm..
For those who say "UKIP don't get much support in places with high immigration levels..."
"Are White British Londoners more accepting of immigration than White British elsewhere? The British Election Study (BES)’s 2015 panel survey asks whether immigration enriches or undermines cultural life. 34.7 per cent of White British outside London say immigration strongly undermines cultural life. But so do 34.4 per cent of White British Londoners. Not much difference there. 44 per cent of White Brits outside London want to leave the EU, but so do 42.3 per cent of White British Londoners. Again, not much in it.
This would suggest that when we adjust for ethnic composition, UKIP support in London isn’t very different. This is clear in figure 1, which shows the city as pretty average among the regions, similar to the South West when we normalise for White British population. Its South East suburban hinterland even begins to look distinctly pro-UKIP. A small share of non-White British support the party, which might inflate London’s figure a touch, but this doesn’t alter the basic pattern."
Jeremy Corbyn has launched his 10-point policy plan in Glasgow as he promises a "new kind of politics" if he wins the Labour leadership contest.
A copy is being sent to all Labour members in a bid to secure their vote as the party sends out the first ballot papers. http://www.itv.com/news/2015-08-14/jeremy-corbyn-promises-new-kind-of-politics-as-he-unveils-10-point-policy-plan/ The "Standing to Deliver"policies include: Growth not austerity – with a national investment bank to help create tomorrow's jobs and reduce the deficit fairly. Fair taxes for all. A lower welfare bill through investment and growth Action on climate change Public ownership of railways and in the energy sector Decent homes for all in public and private sectors by 2025 through a big house-building programme and controlling rents. A foreign policy that prioritises justice and assistance. Fully-funded NHS, integrated with social care, with an end to privatisation in health. Protection at work including an end to zero hours contracts Equality for all A life-long national education service for decent skills and opportunities, universal childcare, the abolition of student fees, restoring grants, and funding adult skills training.
Mixture of EdStone banality and Ministry of Truth mendacity.
Think "Equality for all" is my favourite, being simultaneously stupid, vacuous, eerie, and menacing.
A good measure of the inanity of a political slogan is how meaningful it is if reversed, such as "equality for some but not others".
Jeremy Corbyn has launched his 10-point policy plan in Glasgow as he promises a "new kind of politics" if he wins the Labour leadership contest.
A copy is being sent to all Labour members in a bid to secure their vote as the party sends out the first ballot papers. http://www.itv.com/news/2015-08-14/jeremy-corbyn-promises-new-kind-of-politics-as-he-unveils-10-point-policy-plan/ The "Standing to Deliver"policies include: Growth not austerity – with a national investment bank to help create tomorrow's jobs and reduce the deficit fairly. Fair taxes for all. A lower welfare bill through investment and growth Action on climate change Public ownership of railways and in the energy sector Decent homes for all in public and private sectors by 2025 through a big house-building programme and controlling rents. A foreign policy that prioritises justice and assistance. Fully-funded NHS, integrated with social care, with an end to privatisation in health. Protection at work including an end to zero hours contracts Equality for all A life-long national education service for decent skills and opportunities, universal childcare, the abolition of student fees, restoring grants, and funding adult skills training.
Jeremy Corbyn has launched his 10-point policy plan in Glasgow as he promises a "new kind of politics" if he wins the Labour leadership contest.
A copy is being sent to all Labour members in a bid to secure their vote as the party sends out the first ballot papers. http://www.itv.com/news/2015-08-14/jeremy-corbyn-promises-new-kind-of-politics-as-he-unveils-10-point-policy-plan/ The "Standing to Deliver"policies include: Growth not austerity – with a national investment bank to help create tomorrow's jobs and reduce the deficit fairly. Fair taxes for all. A lower welfare bill through investment and growth Action on climate change Public ownership of railways and in the energy sector Decent homes for all in public and private sectors by 2025 through a big house-building programme and controlling rents. A foreign policy that prioritises justice and assistance. Fully-funded NHS, integrated with social care, with an end to privatisation in health. Protection at work including an end to zero hours contracts Equality for all A life-long national education service for decent skills and opportunities, universal childcare, the abolition of student fees, restoring grants, and funding adult skills training.
AKA "A future fair for all" - how did that work out?
Going through the list, the results would be: tax up, nationalisation failures, energy prices up, inflation increasing, destruction of private rental (and corresponding reduction in housing), even higher house prices and immigration, a failing NHS with rule-ticking and inability to fall back on private sector, less job flexibility, and a ridiculous unfunded commitment to everything else.
Someone tell Corbyn that there's an opening in Cuba, because the majority won't want that disaster for us.
Calum S @CalumSPlath Aug 13 "It is a long overdue reform & something I wish I could have done myself": Tony Blair, Feb 2014, on Labour leadership election reform
Chortle...
In fairness to T. Blair (not something I ever thought I'd write but hey) - it was a good and overdue reform - it just suffered from the problem of Labour MP's being even more terminally dim-witted than anyone could possibly have foreseen. The whole point of the high nominations threshold was to give the Parliamentary Labour Party a 'Veto' on the 'unelectable'.
Jeremy Corbyn has launched his 10-point policy plan in Glasgow as he promises a "new kind of politics" if he wins the Labour leadership contest.
A copy is being sent to all Labour members in a bid to secure their vote as the party sends out the first ballot papers. http://www.itv.com/news/2015-08-14/jeremy-corbyn-promises-new-kind-of-politics-as-he-unveils-10-point-policy-plan/ The "Standing to Deliver"policies include: Growth not austerity – with a national investment bank to help create tomorrow's jobs and reduce the deficit fairly. Fair taxes for all. A lower welfare bill through investment and growth Action on climate change Public ownership of railways and in the energy sector Decent homes for all in public and private sectors by 2025 through a big house-building programme and controlling rents. A foreign policy that prioritises justice and assistance. Fully-funded NHS, integrated with social care, with an end to privatisation in health. Protection at work including an end to zero hours contracts Equality for all A life-long national education service for decent skills and opportunities, universal childcare, the abolition of student fees, restoring grants, and funding adult skills training.
Mixture of EdStone banality and Ministry of Truth mendacity.
Think "Equality for all" is my favourite, being simultaneously stupid, vacuous, eerie, and menacing.
There is also this version, courtesy of The Liberator Songbook, sometimes sung at the Lib Dem Glee Club:
The people's flag is slightly pink It's not as red as most folk think We must not let the people know What socialists thought long ago.
Chorus: Don't let the scarlet banner float We want the middle classes vote Let our old-fashioned comrades sneer We'll stay in power for many a year.
The people’s flag is brightest white It leads the way through day and night Encapsulating purity Unsullied by reality
We do not care that Tories rule We’ll bang and shout and play the fool For compromise is what we fear: We’ll keep the white flag flying here.
David, this post and the one by Slade before were excellent. Top stuff. If anyone can tell me about the history of the "Foreman's Job" song in the USA, I'd be most interested.
(Congrats to the White Rabbit btw. But I hope we see you chez nighthawks.)
Jeremy Corbyn has launched his 10-point policy plan in Glasgow as he promises a "new kind of politics" if he wins the Labour leadership contest.
A copy is being sent to all Labour members in a bid to secure their vote as the party sends out the first ballot papers. http://www.itv.com/news/2015-08-14/jeremy-corbyn-promises-new-kind-of-politics-as-he-unveils-10-point-policy-plan/ The "Standing to Deliver"policies include: Growth not austerity – with a national investment bank to help create tomorrow's jobs and reduce the deficit fairly. Fair taxes for all. A lower welfare bill through investment and growth Action on climate change Public ownership of railways and in the energy sector Decent homes for all in public and private sectors by 2025 through a big house-building programme and controlling rents. A foreign policy that prioritises justice and assistance. Fully-funded NHS, integrated with social care, with an end to privatisation in health. Protection at work including an end to zero hours contracts Equality for all A life-long national education service for decent skills and opportunities, universal childcare, the abolition of student fees, restoring grants, and funding adult skills training.
Very apt. I'm probably mistaken but I thought I spotted JC amongst the extras. If so he seems to have saved the outfit he was given!
Jeremy Corbyn has launched his 10-point policy plan in Glasgow as he promises a "new kind of politics" if he wins the Labour leadership contest.
A copy is being sent to all Labour members in a bid to secure their vote as the party sends out the first ballot papers. http://www.itv.com/news/2015-08-14/jeremy-corbyn-promises-new-kind-of-politics-as-he-unveils-10-point-policy-plan/ The "Standing to Deliver"policies include: Growth not austerity – with a national investment bank to help create tomorrow's jobs and reduce the deficit fairly. Fair taxes for all. A lower welfare bill through investment and growth Action on climate change Public ownership of railways and in the energy sector Decent homes for all in public and private sectors by 2025 through a big house-building programme and controlling rents. A foreign policy that prioritises justice and assistance. Fully-funded NHS, integrated with social care, with an end to privatisation in health. Protection at work including an end to zero hours contracts Equality for all A life-long national education service for decent skills and opportunities, universal childcare, the abolition of student fees, restoring grants, and funding adult skills training.
Mixture of EdStone banality and Ministry of Truth mendacity.
Think "Equality for all" is my favourite, being simultaneously stupid, vacuous, eerie, and menacing.
PB understands the Conservatives very well but sometimes doesn't try to understand Labour people
If everyone is telling you that your beliefs lose elections, and that only abandoning your beliefs can win an election, what are your options?
First, you may not believe that claim if you have spent only five years in opposition Second, you may accept the claim and bring it to its logical conclusion that only a party substantially similar to the Conservatives can win elections; this means Labour should be replaced by a different party that won't welcome the archetypical Labour activist and that will win elections, so there is no point caring about the electability of the actually existing Labour party. But it is a funny way of thinking because the claim really isn't true in the medium-term; views change and you may benefit So third, you could wait it out until the people want to overthrow the government, win on a change wave and then foist your policies on the people. This is the predominant strategy of every leading opposition party in the world but contains the internal contradiction of policy unpopularity that leads to its own downfall Fourth, abandon the beliefs and congratulate yourself on hating the people in government more or less independently of your policy change desires. There is always a bit of 4 whether in government or opposition but I'm talking about the very personal stuff that replaces the pursuit of policies as a reason to support a government; basically a version of 3 that is not necessarily about incumbency.
The Conservatives under Cameron did 3 but more 4. The policy content of Cameroonism was weak, but it is very important to its supporters that Labour are associated with bad people and Conservatives are associated with good (dare I say "virtuous") people. Labour are now doing a mix of 1 and 2. Blair went full 4. The SDP were 2. If Labour want to win an election they probably need to hate the Conservatives more. They spent 5 years mainly hating the Lib Dems and Ukip which didn't win them many seats. They look likely to spend 5 years doing 2.
Jeremy Corbyn has launched his 10-point policy plan in Glasgow as he promises a "new kind of politics" if he wins the Labour leadership contest.
A copy is being sent to all Labour members in a bid to secure their vote as the party sends out the first ballot papers. http://www.itv.com/news/2015-08-14/jeremy-corbyn-promises-new-kind-of-politics-as-he-unveils-10-point-policy-plan/ The "Standing to Deliver"policies include: Growth not austerity – with a national investment bank to help create tomorrow's jobs and reduce the deficit fairly. Fair taxes for all. A lower welfare bill through investment and growth Action on climate change Public ownership of railways and in the energy sector Decent homes for all in public and private sectors by 2025 through a big house-building programme and controlling rents. A foreign policy that prioritises justice and assistance. Fully-funded NHS, integrated with social care, with an end to privatisation in health. Protection at work including an end to zero hours contracts Equality for all A life-long national education service for decent skills and opportunities, universal childcare, the abolition of student fees, restoring grants, and funding adult skills training.
I guess we should all be grateful he and his coterie have limited themselves to 10 points. Heaven only knows what a number 13 might look like. In terms of other numbers there is one that everyone is forgetting. 66. Who is the mad screaming leftie who is going to keep the Stormyn Corbyn wagyn rollin' ??
Mr. JS, I must agree. Corbyn's love of immigration and Russia (and Hamas/Hezbollah) might go down well in London, but I can't see it being popular in what should be Con-Lab marginals.
Jeremy Corbyn has launched his 10-point policy plan in Glasgow as he promises a "new kind of politics" if he wins the Labour leadership contest.
A copy is being sent to all Labour members in a bid to secure their vote as the party sends out the first ballot papers. http://www.itv.com/news/2015-08-14/jeremy-corbyn-promises-new-kind-of-politics-as-he-unveils-10-point-policy-plan/ The "Standing to Deliver"policies include: Growth not austerity – with a national investment bank to help create tomorrow's jobs and reduce the deficit fairly. Fair taxes for all. A lower welfare bill through investment and growth Action on climate change Public ownership of railways and in the energy sector Decent homes for all in public and private sectors by 2025 through a big house-building programme and controlling rents. A foreign policy that prioritises justice and assistance. Fully-funded NHS, integrated with social care, with an end to privatisation in health. Protection at work including an end to zero hours contracts Equality for all A life-long national education service for decent skills and opportunities, universal childcare, the abolition of student fees, restoring grants, and funding adult skills training.
Mixture of EdStone banality and Ministry of Truth mendacity.
Think "Equality for all" is my favourite, being simultaneously stupid, vacuous, eerie, and menacing.
Mr. JS, I must agree. Corbyn's love of immigration and Russia (and Hamas/Hezbollah) might go down well in London, but I can't see it being popular in what should be Con-Lab marginals.
Jeremy Corbyn has launched his 10-point policy plan in Glasgow as he promises a "new kind of politics" if he wins the Labour leadership contest.
A copy is being sent to all Labour members in a bid to secure their vote as the party sends out the first ballot papers. http://www.itv.com/news/2015-08-14/jeremy-corbyn-promises-new-kind-of-politics-as-he-unveils-10-point-policy-plan/ The "Standing to Deliver"policies include: Growth not austerity – with a national investment bank to help create tomorrow's jobs and reduce the deficit fairly. Fair taxes for all. A lower welfare bill through investment and growth Action on climate change Public ownership of railways and in the energy sector Decent homes for all in public and private sectors by 2025 through a big house-building programme and controlling rents. A foreign policy that prioritises justice and assistance. Fully-funded NHS, integrated with social care, with an end to privatisation in health. Protection at work including an end to zero hours contracts Equality for all A life-long national education service for decent skills and opportunities, universal childcare, the abolition of student fees, restoring grants, and funding adult skills training.
I guess we should all be grateful he and his coterie have limited themselves to 10 points. Heaven only knows what a number 13 might look like. In terms of other numbers there is one that everyone is forgetting. 66. Who is the mad screaming leftie who is going to keep the Stormyn Corbyn wagyn rollin' ??
What about the owls? I'm not letting them brush that one under the carpet.
The people's flag is palest pink It's not the colour you might think White collar workers stand and cheer The Labour government is here
We'll change the country bit by bit So nobody will notice it And just to show that we're sincere We'll sing The Red Flag once a year
The cloth cap and the woolen scarf Are images outdated For we're the party's avant garde And we are educated
So raise the rolled umbrella high The college scarf, the old school tie And just to show that we're sincere We'll sing The Red Flag once a year
Three letters. P. P. E.
Followed by an Oxon.
I also quite like various historic versions,
The workers' flag is palest pink Since Gaitskell dipped it in the sink Now Harold's done the same as Hugh The workers' flag is brightest blue.
Or more recently,
New Labour's flag is palest pink It's not as red as you might think And Tony's added shades of blue He does not care for me and you
The latter could by the Corbynista anthem.
There's a pretty well-known American parody called "The Foreman's Job" which I've always thought was quite funny, but also goes a long way to explaining why Americans don't "do" socialism, or at least not by that word. No idea where I first heard it but it must have been around for a while.
snip
(There is also an alternative version I'd not heard of before, replacing "the system.." line with "The working class can kiss my ass "You can tell old Joe I'm off the dole, He can stick the Red Flag up his 'ole" - but presumably that's an older - 40s? 50s? - version.)
There is also this version, courtesy of The Liberator Songbook, sometimes sung at the Lib Dem Glee Club:
The people's flag is slightly pink It's not as red as most folk think We must not let the people know What socialists thought long ago.
Chorus: Don't let the scarlet banner float We want the middle classes vote Let our old-fashioned comrades sneer We'll stay in power for many a year.
The people’s flag is brightest white It leads the way through day and night Encapsulating purity Unsullied by reality
We do not care that Tories rule We’ll bang and shout and play the fool For compromise is what we fear: We’ll keep the white flag flying here.
Dr. Prasannan, bloody Tories. Can't stand them. Especially those 'voters', as they call themselves. Capitalist pigdogs expressing their execrable individualist bourgeois desires through the depraved medium of the ballot box!
The Cooper banner flutters high A scarlet flag in pale blue sky It matters not it’s all a sham For ovaries maketh the man So please ignore my flipping homes Behold my two X chromosomes For feminists, it’s all a ruse: I want to stand in Thatcher’s shoes
Jeremy Corbyn has launched his 10-point policy plan in Glasgow as he promises a "new kind of politics" if he wins the Labour leadership contest.
A copy is being sent to all Labour members in a bid to secure their vote as the party sends out the first ballot papers. http://www.itv.com/news/2015-08-14/jeremy-corbyn-promises-new-kind-of-politics-as-he-unveils-10-point-policy-plan/ The "Standing to Deliver"policies include: Growth not austerity – with a national investment bank to help create tomorrow's jobs and reduce the deficit fairly. Fair taxes for all. A lower welfare bill through investment and growth Action on climate change Public ownership of railways and in the energy sector Decent homes for all in public and private sectors by 2025 through a big house-building programme and controlling rents. A foreign policy that prioritises justice and assistance. Fully-funded NHS, integrated with social care, with an end to privatisation in health. Protection at work including an end to zero hours contracts Equality for all A life-long national education service for decent skills and opportunities, universal childcare, the abolition of student fees, restoring grants, and funding adult skills training.
Mixture of EdStone banality and Ministry of Truth mendacity.
Think "Equality for all" is my favourite, being simultaneously stupid, vacuous, eerie, and menacing.
it is also a clean break from the past. No mention of owls.
(Edit for substance as everyone seems to have made the owls joke.)
Scotland yes but no to EU-no for Cam to step down. In fact what a legacy! A relatively recent phenomenon was given a run-out, and deemed not to be a success by the British public. And it was Cam that gave people the opportunity to express this.
The Cooper banner flutters high A scarlet flag in pale blue sky It matters not it’s all a sham For ovaries maketh the man So please ignore my flipping homes Behold my two X chromosomes For feminists, it’s all a ruse: I want to stand in Thatcher’s shoes
Outstanding - even better than your first version!
Jeremy Corbyn has launched his 10-point policy plan in Glasgow as he promises a "new kind of politics" if he wins the Labour leadership contest.
A copy is being sent to all Labour members in a bid to secure their vote as the party sends out the first ballot papers. http://www.itv.com/news/2015-08-14/jeremy-corbyn-promises-new-kind-of-politics-as-he-unveils-10-point-policy-plan/ The "Standing to Deliver"policies include: Growth not austerity – with a national investment bank to help create tomorrow's jobs and reduce the deficit fairly. Fair taxes for all. A lower welfare bill through investment and growth Action on climate change Public ownership of railways and in the energy sector Decent homes for all in public and private sectors by 2025 through a big house-building programme and controlling rents. A foreign policy that prioritises justice and assistance. Fully-funded NHS, integrated with social care, with an end to privatisation in health. Protection at work including an end to zero hours contracts Equality for all A life-long national education service for decent skills and opportunities, universal childcare, the abolition of student fees, restoring grants, and funding adult skills training.
I guess we should all be grateful he and his coterie have limited themselves to 10 points. Heaven only knows what a number 13 might look like. In terms of other numbers there is one that everyone is forgetting. 66. Who is the mad screaming leftie who is going to keep the Stormyn Corbyn wagyn rollin' ??
What about the owls? I'm not letting them brush that one under the carpet.
And no mention of cats. Mr. Dancer specifically said on this site just yesterday that Corbyn planned to nationalise cats. There was even a brief conversation n the feasibility/desirability of such a policy. Yet when the list comes out felines don't even get a mention.
I am afraid Mr. Dancer's reputation as a political pundit and forecaster cannot but take a large knock in the credibility sector.
The Cooper banner flutters high A scarlet flag in pale blue sky It matters not it’s all a sham For ovaries maketh the man So please ignore my flipping homes Behold my two X chromosomes For feminists, it’s all a ruse: I want to stand in Thatcher’s shoes
Fourth, abandon the beliefs and congratulate yourself on hating the people in government more or less independently of your policy change desires. There is always a bit of 4 whether in government or opposition but I'm talking about the very personal stuff that replaces the pursuit of policies as a reason to support a government; basically a version of 3 that is not necessarily about incumbency.
Labour are now doing a mix of 1 and 2. Blair went full 4. The SDP were 2.
Best post on the thread - but I would argue that there is a fifth option, and that is what New Labour was about. This is to retain the core beliefs (or "values" in New Labour speak) but modernise the policies that should bring them about, e.g. abandon state-ownership as a means of control in favour of laws, agencies and standards.
In domestic policy at least, the post 1997 Labour Government did lots of things which you could never have seen a Conservative government even considering, many of which have been wisely accepted as part of the furniture by the current Government.
EDIT: ...and done some things which were rubbish of course!
If Corbyn is challenged as leader and there is another leadership election is the key question whether Corbyn could get 35 MP nominations?
That seems to be the only way the MPs could oust him - but 35 is a low bar and once he is leader would he then be able to get nominations from people who didn't nominate him this time?
Simple: you put someone like Tony Blair in charge of the party, win elections, and get to put at least some of your policies into action. That's far better than not being able to make any of them happen.
PB understands the Conservatives very well but sometimes doesn't try to understand Labour people
If everyone is telling you that your beliefs lose elections, and that only abandoning your beliefs can win an election, what are your options?
First, you may not believe that claim if you have spent only five years in opposition Second, you may accept the claim and bring it to its logical conclusion that only a party substantially similar to the Conservatives can win elections; this means Labour should be replaced by a different party that won't welcome the archetypical Labour activist and that will win elections, so there is no point caring about the electability of the actually existing Labour party. But it is a funny way of thinking because the claim really isn't true in the medium-term; views change and you may benefit So third, you could wait it out until the people want to overthrow the government, win on a change wave and then foist your policies on the people. This is the predominant strategy of every leading opposition party in the world but contains the internal contradiction of policy unpopularity that leads to its own downfall Fourth, abandon the beliefs and congratulate yourself on hating the people in government more or less independently of your policy change desires. There is always a bit of 4 whether in government or opposition but I'm talking about the very personal stuff that replaces the pursuit of policies as a reason to support a government; basically a version of 3 that is not necessarily about incumbency.
The Conservatives under Cameron did 3 but more 4. The policy content of Cameroonism was weak, but it is very important to its supporters that Labour are associated with bad people and Conservatives are associated with good (dare I say "virtuous") people. Labour are now doing a mix of 1 and 2. Blair went full 4. The SDP were 2. If Labour want to win an election they probably need to hate the Conservatives more. They spent 5 years mainly hating the Lib Dems and Ukip which didn't win them many seats. They look likely to spend 5 years doing 2.
Thinking about this thread (and thank you to @david_herdson for brightening this one with reference to Yvette Cooper's multiples of everything, including houses) can anyone come up with any examples of Prime Ministers who weren't dragged from office more or less kicking and screaming?
In the twentieth century there were two: Wilson (although it has been suggested illness played a part) and Baldwin. For the rest, either illness or unpopularity or the collapse of their government they led or electoral defeat were required. Lord Salisbury is the only other one whose case might be a bit doubtful, but since he was clearly in decline by 1900 and Balfour was increasingly taking over the day-to-day running of the government from then on until Salisbury finally retired, I don't think he can have been said to have surrendered office voluntarily.
In the nineteenth century I can't off-hand think of a single example apart possibly from Earl Grey in 1834 (about whom I don't know very much).
In the eighteenth century - with political musical chairs going on, there may have been some examples, although of course it wasn't always clear who the Prime Minister was in some of them.
So if Cameron does elect to amble off on his own terms, he will be very unusual and hopefully setting a precedent that politicians don't outstay their welcome.
Just when I thought I couldn't despise him any further..
It was said of Sir Stafford Cripps, formerly a leading figure of the CPGB and later Chancellor of the Exchequer under Attlee, that he 'was not only a vegetarian and a teetotaller, but he looked like one too.'
PB understands the Conservatives very well but sometimes doesn't try to understand Labour people
The Conservatives under Cameron did 3 but more 4. The policy content of Cameroonism was weak, but it is very important to its supporters that Labour are associated with bad people and Conservatives are associated with good (dare I say "virtuous") people. Labour are now doing a mix of 1 and 2. Blair went full 4. The SDP were 2. If Labour want to win an election they probably need to hate the Conservatives more. They spent 5 years mainly hating the Lib Dems and Ukip which didn't win them many seats. They look likely to spend 5 years doing 2.
That's quite astute (I think - I'm not sure I understood it all).
However I reckon you underestimate the way social media is changing politics and upending all these rules. This is the first major leadership election which is being decided on Twitter and Facebook (thanks to Labour opening up the contest to all). On social media the shrillest, craziest voices often get the most attention, at its worse a kind of frenzy kicks in.
Traditional media is left floundering in its wake. See the lumbering way the Guardian tries to harness Corbymania - to little effect.
This is what is happening now. Corbyn is surfing an emotional cyberwave, and being elected by the Twitterati. Given that Twitter probably has a collective IQ of 80 - with occasional glimpses of genius, like an autistic savant - that is a pretty foolish way to choose a leader.
This is Labour's 3rd recent leadership election. In the first their MPs were blackmailed into only nominating 1 candidate who turned out to be quite as insane as he was vicious. In the second one brother stabbed another in the back... Now they have given a green light to a swarm of entryists and gone out of their way to let them vote for a candidate who is as much an idiot as he is a bigot.
None of which is encouraging if we are to judge them on an ability to run the country. And to think that their best alternative is Cooper.... well I ask you!
PB understands the Conservatives very well but sometimes doesn't try to understand Labour people
The Conservatives under Cameron did 3 but more 4. The policy content of Cameroonism was weak, but it is very important to its supporters that Labour are associated with bad people and Conservatives are associated with good (dare I say "virtuous") people. Labour are now doing a mix of 1 and 2. Blair went full 4. The SDP were 2. If Labour want to win an election they probably need to hate the Conservatives more. They spent 5 years mainly hating the Lib Dems and Ukip which didn't win them many seats. They look likely to spend 5 years doing 2.
That's quite astute (I think - I'm not sure I understood it all).
However I reckon you underestimate the way social media is changing politics and upending all these rules. This is the first major leadership election which is being decided on Twitter and Facebook (thanks to Labour opening up the contest to all). On social media the shrillest, craziest voices often get the most attention, at its worse a kind of frenzy kicks in.
Traditional media is left floundering in its wake. See the lumbering way the Guardian tries to harness Corbymania - to little effect.
This is what is happening now. Corbyn is surfing an emotional cyberwave, and being elected by the Twitterati. Given that Twitter probably has a collective IQ of 80 - with occasional glimpses of genius, like an autistic savant - that is a pretty foolish way to choose a leader.
This is Labour's 3rd recent leadership election. In the first their MPs were blackmailed into only nominating 1 candidate who turned out to be quite as insane as he was vicious. In the second one brother stabbed another in the back... Now they have given a green light to a swarm of entryists and gone out of their way to let them vote for a candidate who is as much an idiot as he is a bigot.
None of which is encouraging if we are to judge them on an ability to run the country. And to think that their best alternative is Cooper.... well I ask you!
As LinkedIn data showed, the more aspiring Brits will just move out of London. Not to the home counties or northern cities, but to New York, Singapore, Sydney...
The Cooper banner flutters high A scarlet flag in pale blue sky It matters not it’s all a sham For ovaries maketh the man So please ignore my flipping homes Behold my two X chromosomes For feminists, it’s all a ruse: I want to stand in Thatcher’s shoes
PB understands the Conservatives very well but sometimes doesn't try to understand Labour people
The Conservatives under Cameron did 3 but more 4. The policy content of Cameroonism was weak, but it is very important to its supporters that Labour are associated with bad people and Conservatives are associated with good (dare I say "virtuous") people. Labour are now doing a mix of 1 and 2. Blair went full 4. The SDP were 2. If Labour want to win an election they probably need to hate the Conservatives more. They spent 5 years mainly hating the Lib Dems and Ukip which didn't win them many seats. They look likely to spend 5 years doing 2.
That's quite astute (I think - I'm not sure I understood it all).
However I reckon you underestimate the way social media is changing politics and upending all these rules. This is the first major leadership election which is being decided on Twitter and Facebook (thanks to Labour opening up the contest to all). On social media the shrillest, craziest voices often get the most attention, at its worse a kind of frenzy kicks in.
Traditional media is left floundering in its wake. See the lumbering way the Guardian tries to harness Corbymania - to little effect.
This is what is happening now. Corbyn is surfing an emotional cyberwave, and being elected by the Twitterati. Given that Twitter probably has a collective IQ of 80 - with occasional glimpses of genius, like an autistic savant - that is a pretty foolish way to choose a leader.
This is Labour's 3rd recent leadership election. In the first their MPs were blackmailed into only nominating 1 candidate who turned out to be quite as insane as he was vicious. In the second one brother stabbed another in the back... Now they have given a green light to a swarm of entryists and gone out of their way to let them vote for a candidate who is as much an idiot as he is a bigot.
None of which is encouraging if we are to judge them on an ability to run the country. And to think that their best alternative is Cooper.... well I ask you!
If you've thrown in an Eden Kane reference then you're probably as old as I am, and I would have been ashamed to have made it!
Comments
http://s2.postimg.org/ogdh6k789/corbyn_page_001_3.jpg
The 3 Marines who took it down in 1961 are still around, and are guests of honour...
A copy is being sent to all Labour members in a bid to secure their vote as the party sends out the first ballot papers.
http://www.itv.com/news/2015-08-14/jeremy-corbyn-promises-new-kind-of-politics-as-he-unveils-10-point-policy-plan/
The "Standing to Deliver"policies include:
Growth not austerity – with a national investment bank to help create tomorrow's jobs and reduce the deficit fairly. Fair taxes for all.
A lower welfare bill through investment and growth
Action on climate change
Public ownership of railways and in the energy sector
Decent homes for all in public and private sectors by 2025 through a big house-building programme and controlling rents.
A foreign policy that prioritises justice and assistance.
Fully-funded NHS, integrated with social care, with an end to privatisation in health.
Protection at work including an end to zero hours contracts
Equality for all
A life-long national education service for decent skills and opportunities, universal childcare, the abolition of student fees, restoring grants, and funding adult skills training.
Wouldn't you be happy with that?
But he is still in coalition, this time with his own party, and it won't last forever. He's normal enough to care about other things as well as politics, and probably cares more for his family and friends anyway, and young enough to do something else.
He'll go out on a high.
http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/umiuxdpotn/Results-for-EveningStandard-London-LabourLeader-150812.pdf
The question is "Which would be the best leader?" Tory voters say basically meh, everyone else prefers Corbyn or doesn't have a view.
"It is a long overdue reform & something I wish I could have done myself": Tony Blair, Feb 2014, on Labour leadership election reform
Chortle...
There's a pretty well-known American parody called "The Foreman's Job" which I've always thought was quite funny, but also goes a long way to explaining why Americans don't "do" socialism, or at least not by that word. No idea where I first heard it but it must have been around for a while. (There is also an alternative version I'd not heard of before, replacing "the system.." line with "The working class can kiss my ass "You can tell old Joe I'm off the dole, He can stick the Red Flag up his 'ole" - but presumably that's an older - 40s? 50s? - version.)
There is also this version, courtesy of The Liberator Songbook, sometimes sung at the Lib Dem Glee Club:
The people's flag is slightly pink
It's not as red as most folk think
We must not let the people know
What socialists thought long ago.
Chorus:
Don't let the scarlet banner float
We want the middle classes vote
Let our old-fashioned comrades sneer
We'll stay in power for many a year.
The people’s flag is brightest white
It leads the way through day and night
Encapsulating purity
Unsullied by reality
We do not care that Tories rule
We’ll bang and shout and play the fool
For compromise is what we fear:
We’ll keep the white flag flying here.
aka come on in and help yourselves...
A deluded old relic of the 80s - watching him drown as leader will be delicious entertainment.
Oh and the AV system is perverse as well. The tories have the best process to achieve a plurality and also someone with support of MPs - it is the MPs whose job is to govern after all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od6hY_50Dh0
"Are White British Londoners more accepting of immigration than White British elsewhere? The British Election Study (BES)’s 2015 panel survey asks whether immigration enriches or undermines cultural life. 34.7 per cent of White British outside London say immigration strongly undermines cultural life. But so do 34.4 per cent of White British Londoners. Not much difference there. 44 per cent of White Brits outside London want to leave the EU, but so do 42.3 per cent of White British Londoners. Again, not much in it.
This would suggest that when we adjust for ethnic composition, UKIP support in London isn’t very different. This is clear in figure 1, which shows the city as pretty average among the regions, similar to the South West when we normalise for White British population. Its South East suburban hinterland even begins to look distinctly pro-UKIP. A small share of non-White British support the party, which might inflate London’s figure a touch, but this doesn’t alter the basic pattern."
http://quarterly.demos.co.uk/article/issue-5/ukip-in-london/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B2a6l6wM2k
AKA "A future fair for all" - how did that work out?
Going through the list, the results would be: tax up, nationalisation failures, energy prices up, inflation increasing, destruction of private rental (and corresponding reduction in housing), even higher house prices and immigration, a failing NHS with rule-ticking and inability to fall back on private sector, less job flexibility, and a ridiculous unfunded commitment to everything else.
Someone tell Corbyn that there's an opening in Cuba, because the majority won't want that disaster for us.
Followed by an Oxon.
The modern Labour party to a T.
(Congrats to the White Rabbit btw. But I hope we see you chez nighthawks.)
So was Hilter.. just sayin.
@WikiGuido: Cooper-supporting Lab MP mocks Corbyn and bans his brother from voting for him. Who did that MP nominate? Corbyn. http://t.co/tDZKWN8fs7
If everyone is telling you that your beliefs lose elections, and that only abandoning your beliefs can win an election, what are your options?
First, you may not believe that claim if you have spent only five years in opposition
Second, you may accept the claim and bring it to its logical conclusion that only a party substantially similar to the Conservatives can win elections; this means Labour should be replaced by a different party that won't welcome the archetypical Labour activist and that will win elections, so there is no point caring about the electability of the actually existing Labour party. But it is a funny way of thinking because the claim really isn't true in the medium-term; views change and you may benefit
So third, you could wait it out until the people want to overthrow the government, win on a change wave and then foist your policies on the people. This is the predominant strategy of every leading opposition party in the world but contains the internal contradiction of policy unpopularity that leads to its own downfall
Fourth, abandon the beliefs and congratulate yourself on hating the people in government more or less independently of your policy change desires. There is always a bit of 4 whether in government or opposition but I'm talking about the very personal stuff that replaces the pursuit of policies as a reason to support a government; basically a version of 3 that is not necessarily about incumbency.
The Conservatives under Cameron did 3 but more 4. The policy content of Cameroonism was weak, but it is very important to its supporters that Labour are associated with bad people and Conservatives are associated with good (dare I say "virtuous") people.
Labour are now doing a mix of 1 and 2. Blair went full 4. The SDP were 2.
If Labour want to win an election they probably need to hate the Conservatives more. They spent 5 years mainly hating the Lib Dems and Ukip which didn't win them many seats. They look likely to spend 5 years doing 2.
In terms of other numbers there is one that everyone is forgetting. 66. Who is the mad screaming leftie who is going to keep the Stormyn Corbyn wagyn rollin' ??
So too is Sunil... just sayin' even more
Mr. JS, I must agree. Corbyn's love of immigration and Russia (and Hamas/Hezbollah) might go down well in London, but I can't see it being popular in what should be Con-Lab marginals.
There's a pretty well-known American parody called "The Foreman's Job" which I've always thought was quite funny, but also goes a long way to explaining why Americans don't "do" socialism, or at least not by that word. No idea where I first heard it but it must have been around for a while. (There is also an alternative version I'd not heard of before, replacing "the system.." line with "The working class can kiss my ass "You can tell old Joe I'm off the dole, He can stick the Red Flag up his 'ole" - but presumably that's an older - 40s? 50s? - version.)
There is also this version, courtesy of The Liberator Songbook, sometimes sung at the Lib Dem Glee Club:
The people's flag is slightly pink
It's not as red as most folk think
We must not let the people know
What socialists thought long ago.
Chorus:
Don't let the scarlet banner float
We want the middle classes vote
Let our old-fashioned comrades sneer
We'll stay in power for many a year.
The people’s flag is brightest white
It leads the way through day and night
Encapsulating purity
Unsullied by reality
We do not care that Tories rule
We’ll bang and shout and play the fool
For compromise is what we fear:
We’ll keep the white flag flying here.
The Cooper banner flutters high
A scarlet flag in pale blue sky
It matters not it’s all a sham
For ovaries maketh the man
So please ignore my flipping homes
Behold my two X chromosomes
For feminists, it’s all a ruse:
I want to stand in Thatcher’s shoes
(Edit for substance as everyone seems to have made the owls joke.)
Scotland yes but no to EU-no for Cam to step down. In fact what a legacy! A relatively recent phenomenon was given a run-out, and deemed not to be a success by the British public. And it was Cam that gave people the opportunity to express this.
Outstanding - even better than your first version!
I am afraid Mr. Dancer's reputation as a political pundit and forecaster cannot but take a large knock in the credibility sector.
*throws roses onto stage*
The sensible men of the world know that enormo-haddock and octo-lemurs are the way forward.
Let's face it he has never has to practice what he preached or theorised over and when anyone else has tried, it has failed.
Trainspotters for Corbyn!
Being slow on the uptake I've just realised that "Dandy Highwayman" is a perfect epithet for JC!
This is to retain the core beliefs (or "values" in New Labour speak) but modernise the policies that should bring them about, e.g. abandon state-ownership as a means of control in favour of laws, agencies and standards.
In domestic policy at least, the post 1997 Labour Government did lots of things which you could never have seen a Conservative government even considering, many of which have been wisely accepted as part of the furniture by the current Government.
EDIT: ...and done some things which were rubbish of course!
That seems to be the only way the MPs could oust him - but 35 is a low bar and once he is leader would he then be able to get nominations from people who didn't nominate him this time?
Just when I thought I couldn't despise him any further..
Ruth Davidson MSP @RuthDavidsonMSP · 1 day1 day ago
Just read Cooper speech. Disagree (as you'd expect) but bloody hell, it's strong. What if she'd made it a month ago? https://www.politicshome.com/party-politics/articles/news/yvette-cooper-speech-manchester …
Ladbrokes lCorbyn 1st Pref Vote share odds
12/1 Under 40%
11/4 40-50%
6/4 50-60%
11/4 60-70%
6/1 Over 70%
The only way I can see Corbyn losing is if he got under 40% on first prefs.
Thank heaven for the Cons and a bit of fun.
In the twentieth century there were two: Wilson (although it has been suggested illness played a part) and Baldwin. For the rest, either illness or unpopularity or the collapse of their government they led or electoral defeat were required. Lord Salisbury is the only other one whose case might be a bit doubtful, but since he was clearly in decline by 1900 and Balfour was increasingly taking over the day-to-day running of the government from then on until Salisbury finally retired, I don't think he can have been said to have surrendered office voluntarily.
In the nineteenth century I can't off-hand think of a single example apart possibly from Earl Grey in 1834 (about whom I don't know very much).
In the eighteenth century - with political musical chairs going on, there may have been some examples, although of course it wasn't always clear who the Prime Minister was in some of them.
So if Cameron does elect to amble off on his own terms, he will be very unusual and hopefully setting a precedent that politicians don't outstay their welcome.
... electoral wipe-out.
Can anyone spot any resemblance to Corbyn?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stafford_Cripps#/media/File:Stafford_Cripps_1947.jpg
EDIT - he was also of course a non-smoker, but that's not unusual today.
Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot
In the first their MPs were blackmailed into only nominating 1 candidate who turned out to be quite as insane as he was vicious.
In the second one brother stabbed another in the back...
Now they have given a green light to a swarm of entryists and gone out of their way to let them vote for a candidate who is as much an idiot as he is a bigot.
None of which is encouraging if we are to judge them on an ability to run the country. And to think that their best alternative is Cooper.... well I ask you!
Local news expose?
Osbourne's gone too soon.