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  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Does Peter Kellner have some new info ?

    Or is he just being a prize twat ?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited August 2015
    SNIP
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    O/T:

    A female New Statesman writer is shocked to find that vintage science fiction novels mostly feature straight white men having an interesting time:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/2015/08/i-read-100-best-fantasy-and-sci-fi-novels-and-they-were-shockingly-offensive
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Miss Plato, no greater love hath a man than this, that he layeth down his marriage for his (ex-) wife's career.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    No time to read the comments so if mentioned apols, but Gorgeous George seemed to be in his element wrt the Labour Leadership election( on LBC )
  • Hopefully the lessons that the SNP are learning from their tax increase in higher value property sales will be learned and then applied in future tax change activity. But, it may well take independence and full tax control to force the SNP to learn the lessons of the Labour party's govt in the 1970s. Squeezing till the pips squeak anyone?
    "Hello is that the IMF - giz some munay... what cut spending - who are you to tell us - are we greece?"
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    How did I miss this:

    "Labour leadership hopeful Andy Burnham has said calls from rival Yvette Cooper for him to quit the contest are "disappointing" and "quite strange". A spokesman for Ms Cooper said he should step aside "if he isn't prepared to offer an alternative" to left-wing frontrunner Jeremy Corbyn."
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg
    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited August 2015

    Sean_F said:

    antifrank said:

    Sean_F said:

    antifrank said:

    For those that can get through the FT paywall, this was interesting on Russia this morning:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c8b034ac-44ca-11e5-b3b2-1672f710807b.html#axzz3j5nOqGOl

    "From any longer-term perspective, the striking feature of Mr Putin’s Russia is not its strength but its alarming brittleness."

    concluded: “If the situation does not improve the country can expect problems in the economy, international competitiveness and, in a long-term perspective, geopolitics too.” "

    The Soviet Union was never really close to the USA in terms of economic clout (Soviet economic statistics were pie in the sky). I'm sure that the Soviet economy was a good deal less than one fifth the size of the US economy.
    Well yes, that is the weakest point of the article.
    Admittedly, the CIA seems to have taken Soviet economic statistics at face value. I can remember books from the 1980s showing East German GDP per head higher than our own, and Soviet GDP per head not far short of it.
    I once met the guys who made the CIA's assessment of oil reserves in the Caspian Sea.

    They admitted it was back of the fag packet stuff. But it shaped US foreign policy....
    When evaluating stats on Latin America and the Caribbean in the early 90s I treated CIA data as of less use than the price of a Big Mac - often a better bet.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Russia's economic performance under Putin was no better than any other resource exporting country.

    It's often forgotten, but Russia is the world's largest oil producer, and the world's second largest natural gas producer. In fact Russia's exports are utterly dominated by commodities (https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/rus/).

    Putin took power when prices were low. And for a decade and a half, they soared. Russia, like Venezuela and others, looked like an economic powerhouse.

    But it wasn't an economic powerhouse. It was the largest oil producer in the world at a time when oil went from $10 to $150.

    The price of oil has now fallen two-thirds from its peak. And Russia will now perform just as well as all the other petrostates. (Note: at least the Russian government isn't indebted.)

    It is telling that when commodity prices fall, and governments are no longer awash with cash, they seek out foreign adventures. Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands after the price of commodities crashed in the early 1980s, for example. Putin is just following a well trodden path of invading the neighbours to hide the economic issues at home.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    Sandpit said:

    Dair said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Swinney strikes again...

    In April there was only one property sale recorded above this price bracket in the whole of Scotland as the hefty tax increases put off would-be buyers. In May there were two and in June this rose to six.

    As a result the amount raised through the new land and buildings transaction tax (LBTT), which replaced UK-wide stamp duty in Scotland in April, fell to only £982,511 in the second quarter. It had been almost £8.6 million between January and March.

    Under the LBTT, the first tax to be set by the Scottish parliament, buyers of homes worth £750,001 or more will have to pay tax at 12 per cent for the proportion of the value of the property that is higher than that bracket. They also pay 10 per cent for the amount from £325,001 to £750,000.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/life/property/article4530241.ece
    Yawn, saddo , Tories still fighting for list seats like baldy men over a comb. They getting a surge.
    So you think that the collapse in tax receipts is a good thing?
    Put down the invective-gun for a minute and tell us...
    Tax Receipts have not collapsed. Tax changes have timing effects, this was known, planned for and expected. Only an idiot would consider the effect within the first two years.

    Was known was it?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/SNP/11370758/John-Swinney-admits-new-Scottish-property-tax-shortfall.html

    and this...
    http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Land-and-Buildings-Transaction-Tax-1118.aspx

    Quote:
    "The two devolved taxes will be collected by Revenue Scotland and are expected to bring in an estimated £558 million in 2015-16. "

    we are at war with eastasia. we've always been at war with eastasia.
    So 'only an idiot' would look to the first couple of years' revenue from the new system. Except the idiot that wrote this year's budget..?
    Quite

    I find the revisionism of the snats to be breathtaking.

    Would that be the same one that manages his budget with out having to borrow money every year then. Pity we did not have an idiot doing similar in westminster.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Hilarious. She should get that Tory rag, the Guardian to print it.
    AndyJS said:

    O/T:

    A female New Statesman writer is shocked to find that vintage science fiction novels mostly feature straight white men having an interesting time:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/2015/08/i-read-100-best-fantasy-and-sci-fi-novels-and-they-were-shockingly-offensive

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    edited August 2015
    Miss Plato, I thought it was all but 10. I didn't realise we were so pacifist...

    Edited extra bit: Miss Plato, that sometimes gets brought up in regard to modern sci-fi/fantasy work.

    Of course, there's the issue of men using female pseudonyms for romantic fiction, but that's not deemed a problem.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    Scott_P said:

    Sandpit said:

    So 'only an idiot' would look to the first couple of years' revenue from the new system. Except the idiot that wrote this year's budget..?

    To call Swinney an idiot is an insult to idiots everywhere
    You will be suitably insulted many times over then
  • No time to read the comments so if mentioned apols, but Gorgeous George seemed to be in his element wrt the Labour Leadership election( on LBC )

    Is he saying 3 cheeks of the same backside?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Swinney strikes again...

    In April there was only one property sale recorded above this price bracket in the whole of Scotland as the hefty tax increases put off would-be buyers. In May there were two and in June this rose to six.

    As a result the amount raised through the new land and buildings transaction tax (LBTT), which replaced UK-wide stamp duty in Scotland in April, fell to only £982,511 in the second quarter. It had been almost £8.6 million between January and March.

    Under the LBTT, the first tax to be set by the Scottish parliament, buyers of homes worth £750,001 or more will have to pay tax at 12 per cent for the proportion of the value of the property that is higher than that bracket. They also pay 10 per cent for the amount from £325,001 to £750,000.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/life/property/article4530241.ece
    Yawn, saddo , Tories still fighting for list seats like baldy men over a comb. They getting a surge.
    So you think that the collapse in tax receipts is a good thing?
    Put down the invective-gun for a minute and tell us...
    Tax Receipts have not collapsed. Tax changes have timing effects, this was known, planned for and expected. Only an idiot would consider the effect within the first two years.

    Was known was it?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/SNP/11370758/John-Swinney-admits-new-Scottish-property-tax-shortfall.html

    and this...
    http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Land-and-Buildings-Transaction-Tax-1118.aspx

    Quote:
    "The two devolved taxes will be collected by Revenue Scotland and are expected to bring in an estimated £558 million in 2015-16. "

    we are at war with eastasia. we've always been at war with eastasia.
    The quotes you link don't seem to say what you think they say.

    There's a surprise
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I think there was some controversy about it at the time between some saying Is That All? And others saying APPALLING!!!

    Miss Plato, I thought it was all but 10. I didn't realise we were so pacifist...

  • Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    So do not mess with us!
    Seriously, after the Falkands war and the privatisations, doing business internationally from the late 1980s as a UK company became much easier and doors opened up to us. We were back and respected.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    Hopefully the lessons that the SNP are learning from their tax increase in higher value property sales will be learned and then applied in future tax change activity. But, it may well take independence and full tax control to force the SNP to learn the lessons of the Labour party's govt in the 1970s. Squeezing till the pips squeak anyone?
    "Hello is that the IMF - giz some munay... what cut spending - who are you to tell us - are we greece?"

    Another idiot , it was not a tax increase , it was a rebranding to make the system fairer. It was made progressive rather than milking those at the bottom. Not surprisingly Squeaky copied it as it was such a good idea.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I quite agree - traveling en masse to the other side of the globe > to zap local Argies > over a couple tiny islands...

    Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    So do not mess with us!
    Seriously, after the Falkands war and the privatisations, doing business internationally from the late 1980s as a UK company became much easier and doors opened up to us. We were back and respected.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sean_F said:

    antifrank said:

    Sean_F said:

    antifrank said:

    For those that can get through the FT paywall, this was interesting on Russia this morning:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c8b034ac-44ca-11e5-b3b2-1672f710807b.html#axzz3j5nOqGOl

    "From any longer-term perspective, the striking feature of Mr Putin’s Russia is not its strength but its alarming brittleness."

    concluded: “If the situation does not improve the country can expect problems in the economy, international competitiveness and, in a long-term perspective, geopolitics too.” "

    The Soviet Union was never really close to the USA in terms of economic clout (Soviet economic statistics were pie in the sky). I'm sure that the Soviet economy was a good deal less than one fifth the size of the US economy.
    Well yes, that is the weakest point of the article.
    Admittedly, the CIA seems to have taken Soviet economic statistics at face value. I can remember books from the 1980s showing East German GDP per head higher than our own, and Soviet GDP per head not far short of it.
    I once met the guys who made the CIA's assessment of oil reserves in the Caspian Sea.

    They admitted it was back of the fag packet stuff. But it shaped US foreign policy....
    When evaluating stats on Latin America and the Caribbean in the early 90s I treated CIA data as of less use than the price of a Big Mac - often a better bet.
    The Economist still publish the Big Mac Index a couple of times a year.
    http://www.economist.com/content/big-mac-index
  • malcolmg said:

    Hopefully the lessons that the SNP are learning from their tax increase in higher value property sales will be learned and then applied in future tax change activity. But, it may well take independence and full tax control to force the SNP to learn the lessons of the Labour party's govt in the 1970s. Squeezing till the pips squeak anyone?
    "Hello is that the IMF - giz some munay... what cut spending - who are you to tell us - are we greece?"

    Another idiot , it was not a tax increase , it was a rebranding to make the system fairer. It was made progressive rather than milking those at the bottom. Not surprisingly Squeaky copied it as it was such a good idea.
    Did I say that Osborne's move was a good idea? Two wrongs do not make a right. Creating disincentives to trade property will end up causing major disincentives to a range of economic activities. Stupid is as stupid does.
  • Splendiferous PB Tory Propaganda piece, Tissue_Price!
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    edited August 2015
    Good to see John McTernan taking some time off from his ABC campaign and do a bit of his day job i.e. Kezia's Chief of Staff:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/18/kezia-dugdale-scottish-labour-party-victory

    Some interesting snippets:

    " The hard left, backed by Unite, succeeded in tearing down Jim Murphy – Kez’s predecessor. They were unable to stop her and had no credible candidate to run against her, but they will constantly try to undermine her. Kez will need total control over the party machine to crush any attempt to destabilise her. "

    As Neil Findlay and the Unions start barricading themselves into SLAB's Glasgow HQ exactly how the recently formed Edinburgh SLAB party hopes to crush Glasgow SLAB is anybody's guess. SLAB are also reopening the candidate selection process before Holyrood and John McT is basically describing the current team as being pretty crap:

    " The selection process for next year’s Scottish parliament elections have been reopened and her priority has to be to ensure that every single MSP elected next year is of the first rank. Look at the Scottish Parliamentary Labour party today, and that is simply not true. A team of all the talents needs to start with talent. "

    As SLAB are likely to lose most if not all of their 13 constituency seats in Holyrood 2016 they'll be reduced to around 25 list seats. The infighting for regional list seats is going to be intense - Kezia and her deputy are guaranteed first place on their lists - the other 23 seats are up for grabs. I wonder whether as well as Blair McD, talented individuals such as John McT might be about to chuck their hats in the ring?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Mr JS,

    "A female New Statesman writer is shocked to find that vintage science fiction novels mostly feature straight white men having an interesting time:"

    Just as well that she hasn't read any Shakespeare or Dickens then.
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dair said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Swinney strikes again...

    In April there was only one property sale recorded above this price bracket in the whole of Scotland as the hefty tax increases put off would-be buyers. In May there were two and in June this rose to six.

    As a result the amount raised through the new land and buildings transaction tax (LBTT), which replaced UK-wide stamp duty in Scotland in April, fell to only £982,511 in the second quarter. It had been almost £8.6 million between January and March.

    Under the LBTT, the first tax to be set by the Scottish parliament, buyers of homes worth £750,001 or more will have to pay tax at 12 per cent for the proportion of the value of the property that is higher than that bracket. They also pay 10 per cent for the amount from £325,001 to £750,000.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/life/property/article4530241.ece
    Yawn, saddo , Tories still fighting for list seats like baldy men over a comb. They getting a surge.
    So you think that the collapse in tax receipts is a good thing?
    Put down the invective-gun for a minute and tell us...
    Tax Receipts have not collapsed. Tax changes have timing effects, this was known, planned for and expected. Only an idiot would consider the effect within the first two years.

    Was known was it?
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/SNP/11370758/John-Swinney-admits-new-Scottish-property-tax-shortfall.html

    and this...
    http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Land-and-Buildings-Transaction-Tax-1118.aspx

    Quote:
    "The two devolved taxes will be collected by Revenue Scotland and are expected to bring in an estimated £558 million in 2015-16. "

    we are at war with eastasia. we've always been at war with eastasia.
    So 'only an idiot' would look to the first couple of years' revenue from the new system. Except the idiot that wrote this year's budget..?
    Quite

    I find the revisionism of the snats to be breathtaking.
    Would that be the same one that manages his budget with out having to borrow money every year then. Pity we did not have an idiot doing similar in westminster.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/11152824/John-Swinney-maxes-out-Scotlands-borrowing-limits.html
  • Second email from Andy today!

    Still nothing from Liz!

    Also got a mail from Ben Bradshaw for DPL.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669
    Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    Quite right there are always reasons/excuses to invade, Putin may say he invaded because the elected head of state in Ukraine was deposed. Or more likely say that he didn't invade!
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited August 2015
    malcolmg said:

    Hopefully the lessons that the SNP are learning from their tax increase in higher value property sales will be learned and then applied in future tax change activity. But, it may well take independence and full tax control to force the SNP to learn the lessons of the Labour party's govt in the 1970s. Squeezing till the pips squeak anyone?
    "Hello is that the IMF - giz some munay... what cut spending - who are you to tell us - are we greece?"

    'it was not a tax increase , it was a rebranding to make the system fairer. '
    Arf. Another loss of revenue, on top of the oil price collapse.

    What goes first, some schools or Sturgeon's spin doctors?

    I think we all know the answer, and the English will somehow get the blame as a poor excuse.


  • Plato said:

    I quite agree - traveling en masse to the other side of the globe > to zap local Argies > over a couple tiny islands...

    Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    So do not mess with us!
    Seriously, after the Falkands war and the privatisations, doing business internationally from the late 1980s as a UK company became much easier and doors opened up to us. We were back and respected.
    Which happened to be home to thousands of British Citizens?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "‘Party members are worried to speak out because of abuse’ – Liz Kendall speaks to LabourList"

    http://labourlist.org/2015/08/party-members-are-worried-to-speak-out-because-of-abuse-liz-kendall-speaks-to-labourlist/
  • Plato said:

    I quite agree - traveling en masse to the other side of the globe > to zap local Argies > over a couple tiny islands...

    Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    So do not mess with us!
    Seriously, after the Falkands war and the privatisations, doing business internationally from the late 1980s as a UK company became much easier and doors opened up to us. We were back and respected.
    Not how I would put it nor how other governments in the region viewed us. More to do with a country standing up for principles and treaties etc. The deaths were sadly the result of the argentine leaders. I had some trepidation going into Buenos Aires in late 1980s on business. But as a Brit we were very welcome. Even at the Officers Club in BA one lunch time.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    2 Para could complete that list in a fortnight.... Maybe a week!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922
    edited August 2015
    Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    The Map's wrong!

    We had a base on Hano Island off the coast of Sweden during Napoleonic times.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanö

    Between 1810 and 1812 the Royal Navy of the United Kingdom used the island as its base during its operations in the Baltic Sea. The "English Seaman's Graveyard" is situated on the island, and still today British warships visit the island to pay tribute to the fifteen sailors who rest there. In 1972 the Royal Navy constructed a big wooden cross on the spot of the graveyard which is visible several miles out to sea.

    Coordinates: 56°00′N 14°50′E



    Also when did UK or English forces enter:

    Romania?
    Slovakia?
    Hungary?
    Kazakhstan?
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    I've just voted online. I couldn't believe how easy it was.
    Andy Burnham, then Yvette
    Caroline Flint, then Stella

    There were sone really random votes to some committees today- I just selected one name that I have now forgotten and voted.

    I was flirting with Jezza until I realised what his shadow cabinet could look like- McDonnell, Abbott and Tom Watson.

    But still hasn't affected my betting position which is now all out on Jezza. I won't let any sentiments get in the way of hard readies.
  • Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    Quite right there are always reasons/excuses to invade, Putin may say he invaded because the elected head of state in Ukraine was deposed. Or more likely say that he didn't invade!
    In Grenada the USA pulled out their troops within 2 months of going in and a year later elections took place and no territory was annexed for an American base or an American satellite state. Unlike the Ukraine under Putin.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Plato said:

    I quite agree - traveling en masse to the other side of the globe > to zap local Argies > over a couple tiny islands...

    Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    So do not mess with us!
    Seriously, after the Falkands war and the privatisations, doing business internationally from the late 1980s as a UK company became much easier and doors opened up to us. We were back and respected.
    And if the Argies think they can try it again, they'll find the British just as eager to ensure that they fail again too!!

    Unfortunately both sides look very different militarily to how they did in 1982, we'll never again be able to mount the quite amazingly ingenious operation that was Black Buck.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    tyson said:

    There were sone really random votes to some committees today- I just selected one name that I have now forgotten and voted.

    Apparently those committees are important, comrade: http://www.progressonline.org.uk/2015/08/18/no-benign-gathering-of-bureaucrats/
  • Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    Quite right there are always reasons/excuses to invade, Putin may say he invaded because the elected head of state in Ukraine was deposed. Or more likely say that he didn't invade!
    In Grenada the USA pulled out their troops within 2 months of going in and a year later elections took place and no territory was annexed for an American base or an American satellite state. Unlike the Ukraine under Putin.
    USA's ally Israel unilaterally annexed the Golan in 1981.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    tyson said:

    I've just voted online. I couldn't believe how easy it was.
    Andy Burnham, then Yvette
    Caroline Flint, then Stella

    There were sone really random votes to some committees today- I just selected one name that I have now forgotten and voted.

    I was flirting with Jezza until I realised what his shadow cabinet could look like- McDonnell, Abbott and Tom Watson.

    But still hasn't affected my betting position which is now all out on Jezza. I won't let any sentiments get in the way of hard readies.

    Have you joined Dan Hodges on his journey ?
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Plato said:

    I quite agree - traveling en masse to the other side of the globe > to zap local Argies > over a couple tiny islands...

    Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    So do not mess with us!
    Seriously, after the Falkands war and the privatisations, doing business internationally from the late 1980s as a UK company became much easier and doors opened up to us. We were back and respected.
    Which happened to be home to thousands of British Citizens?
    I believe they are British Nationals not British Citizens.
  • Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    Quite right there are always reasons/excuses to invade, Putin may say he invaded because the elected head of state in Ukraine was deposed. Or more likely say that he didn't invade!
    In Grenada the USA pulled out their troops within 2 months of going in and a year later elections took place and no territory was annexed for an American base or an American satellite state. Unlike the Ukraine under Putin.
    USA's ally Israel unilaterally annexed the Golan in 1981.
    Wrong? Yes. Understandable becuase of past military attacks from Syria? Answer Yes. Did it stop wars with Syria? Answer yes so far.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Mr Sandpit,

    "And if the Argies think they can try it again, they'll find the British just as eager to ensure that they fail again too!! "

    If Jezza were PM, he'd give them it back, and throw in the Isle of Wight too.

    But he won't even make LOTO, the lemmings will stop short.
  • Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    Quite right there are always reasons/excuses to invade, Putin may say he invaded because the elected head of state in Ukraine was deposed. Or more likely say that he didn't invade!
    In Grenada the USA pulled out their troops within 2 months of going in and a year later elections took place and no territory was annexed for an American base or an American satellite state. Unlike the Ukraine under Putin.
    USA's ally Israel unilaterally annexed the Golan in 1981.
    Wrong? Yes. Understandable becuase of past military attacks from Syria? Answer Yes. Did it stop wars with Syria? Answer yes so far.
    Was there a plebiscite of local Syrians? No!
  • Dair said:

    Plato said:

    I quite agree - traveling en masse to the other side of the globe > to zap local Argies > over a couple tiny islands...

    Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    So do not mess with us!
    Seriously, after the Falkands war and the privatisations, doing business internationally from the late 1980s as a UK company became much easier and doors opened up to us. We were back and respected.
    Which happened to be home to thousands of British Citizens?
    I believe they are British Nationals not British Citizens.
    You believe wrong: Under the British Nationality (Falkland Islands) Act 1983, Falkland Islanders are British citizens.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    The Map's wrong!

    We had a base on Hano Island off the coast of Sweden during Napoleonic times.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanö

    Between 1810 and 1812 the Royal Navy of the United Kingdom used the island as its base during its operations in the Baltic Sea. The "English Seaman's Graveyard" is situated on the island, and still today British warships visit the island to pay tribute to the fifteen sailors who rest there. In 1972 the Royal Navy constructed a big wooden cross on the spot of the graveyard which is visible several miles out to sea.

    Coordinates: 56°00′N 14°50′E



    Also when did UK or English forces enter:

    Romania?
    Slovakia?
    Hungary?
    Kazakhstan?
    My thought for Kazakhstan was the Malleson mission, but it only seems to got as far as Turkmenistan.
  • CD13 said:



    If Jezza were PM, he'd give them it back, and throw in the Isle of Wight too.

    Naught but PB Tory Propaganda!
  • Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    The Map's wrong!

    We had a base on Hano Island off the coast of Sweden during Napoleonic times.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanö

    Between 1810 and 1812 the Royal Navy of the United Kingdom used the island as its base during its operations in the Baltic Sea. The "English Seaman's Graveyard" is situated on the island, and still today British warships visit the island to pay tribute to the fifteen sailors who rest there. In 1972 the Royal Navy constructed a big wooden cross on the spot of the graveyard which is visible several miles out to sea.

    Coordinates: 56°00′N 14°50′E



    Also when did UK or English forces enter:

    Romania?
    Slovakia?
    Hungary?
    Kazakhstan?
    My thought for Kazakhstan was the Malleson mission, but it only seems to got as far as Turkmenistan.
    Yep, Malleson only got as far as Mar'y (Merv) and Ashkhabad, ie. not too far into Turkmenistan.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited August 2015

    Dair said:



    Which happened to be home to thousands of British Citizens?

    I believe they are British Nationals not British Citizens.
    You believe wrong: Under the British Nationality (Falkland Islands) Act 1983, Falkland Islanders are British citizens.
    You had written happened - past tense. (and yes pedantically I wrote are instead of were).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Nationality_(Falkland_Islands)_Act_1983
    The 1983 Act was passed mainly in response to the Falklands War

    So at the time of the war they were British Nationals with less rights than citizens of the Irish Republic (a bizarre situation which remains in effect for British Nationals in a dozen other dependencies).
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    Oh dear- I think I inadvertently voted for one of the Trots in one- the woman.

    This whole process is a throwback to the 80's. The bloody Trots were more motivated than the rest of the members who basically viewed meetings as social occasions. The Trots managed to get control of most of the party organisations by basically turning up to meetings in sufficient numbers and voting themselves onto all sorts of positions. They'd make sure the meetings were arranged at obscure times too so no other bugger turned up.

    tyson said:

    There were sone really random votes to some committees today- I just selected one name that I have now forgotten and voted.

    Apparently those committees are important, comrade: http://www.progressonline.org.uk/2015/08/18/no-benign-gathering-of-bureaucrats/

  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    edited August 2015
    Dr Prasannan,

    The PB Tories are right, as they are some of the time.

    Jezza? Surely no one can take him seriously?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922
    edited August 2015
    Dair said:

    Dair said:



    Which happened to be home to thousands of British Citizens?

    I believe they are British Nationals not British Citizens.
    You believe wrong: Under the British Nationality (Falkland Islands) Act 1983, Falkland Islanders are British citizens.
    You had written happened - past tense. (and yes pedantically I wrote are instead of were).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Nationality_(Falkland_Islands)_Act_1983
    The 1983 Act was passed mainly in response to the Falklands War

    So at the time of the war they were British Nationals with less rights than citizens of the Irish Republic (a bizarre situation which remains in effect for British Nationals in a dozen other dependencies).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Overseas_Territories_Act_2002

    The British Overseas Territories Act 2002 (c.8) is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom, which superseded parts of the British Nationality Act 1981. It makes provision for the renaming of the British Dependent Territories as British Overseas Territories, and the renaming of associated citizenship.

    As a result of the act, all who were British Overseas Territories citizens (apart from those solely connected with the Cyprus Sovereign Base Areas) immediately prior to 21 May 2002 automatically became full British Citizens on that date (previously full British citizenship was available only to people from Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands).

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959

    Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    The Map's wrong!

    We had a base on Hano Island off the coast of Sweden during Napoleonic times.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanö

    Between 1810 and 1812 the Royal Navy of the United Kingdom used the island as its base during its operations in the Baltic Sea. The "English Seaman's Graveyard" is situated on the island, and still today British warships visit the island to pay tribute to the fifteen sailors who rest there. In 1972 the Royal Navy constructed a big wooden cross on the spot of the graveyard which is visible several miles out to sea.

    Coordinates: 56°00′N 14°50′E



    Also when did UK or English forces enter:

    Romania?
    Slovakia?
    Hungary?
    Kazakhstan?
    My thought for Kazakhstan was the Malleson mission, but it only seems to got as far as Turkmenistan.
    Yep, Malleson only got as far as Mar'y (Merv) and Ashkhabad, ie. not too far into Turkmenistan.
    I've been to Ashkhabad. Any other PB-ers?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669

    Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    Quite right there are always reasons/excuses to invade, Putin may say he invaded because the elected head of state in Ukraine was deposed. Or more likely say that he didn't invade!
    In Grenada the USA pulled out their troops within 2 months of going in and a year later elections took place and no territory was annexed for an American base or an American satellite state. Unlike the Ukraine under Putin.
    I'm not defending Putin, I'll leave that to UKIP and Corbyn.
    I'd just like to see some PB people being able to see shades of grey. Not everything the US does is whiter than white.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited August 2015
    CD13 said:

    Mr Sandpit,

    "And if the Argies think they can try it again, they'll find the British just as eager to ensure that they fail again too!! "

    If Jezza were PM, he'd give them it back, and throw in the Isle of Wight too.

    But he won't even make LOTO, the lemmings will stop short.

    If ever there would be the possibility of a military coup in the UK, that's probably the situation that precedes it!

    My head says surely there's no chance of JC actually being elected LOTO, but the bookies, pollsters and commentariat all now seem convinced. Very interesting times ahead!
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Well done, Mr Tyson.

    Better the puppy dog than the mad dog.
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191



    Also when did UK or English forces enter:

    Romania?
    Slovakia?
    Hungary?
    Kazakhstan?

    I'm imagining Kazakhstan would have been Great Game/Crimean war stuff.

    TBF to the bloke:

    "Only a comparatively small proportion of the total in Mr Laycock's list of invaded states actually formed an official part of the empire.The remainder have been included because the British were found to have achieved some sort of military presence in the territory – however transitory – either through force, the threat of force, negotiation or payment.

    Incursions by British pirates, privateers or armed explorers have also been included, provided they were operating with the approval of their government.The research lists countries based on their current national boundaries and names. Many of the invasions took place when these did not apply."
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    new thread

  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    I guess I have Pulps. The Corbyn factor has stimulated some kind of deep rooted post traumatic stress syndrome for me that has just hit me like a bolt of unwanted lightning. I suddenly remember the 1980's- the branch meetings, Trots talking utter shyte, arguing for endless hours over the wording of some resolution or other.

    The Trots are a pain in the bloody arse. And mostly as thick as pig shit- they don't listen to anything. They read the Communist Manifesto and got indoctrinated without questioning anything else. But worse they made any party gathering about as fun as spending three hours sticking needles in your eyes.

    And now- the Trots are back. I cannot believe it. Arghhhhh.........
    Pulpstar said:

    tyson said:

    I've just voted online. I couldn't believe how easy it was.
    Andy Burnham, then Yvette
    Caroline Flint, then Stella

    There were sone really random votes to some committees today- I just selected one name that I have now forgotten and voted.

    I was flirting with Jezza until I realised what his shadow cabinet could look like- McDonnell, Abbott and Tom Watson.

    But still hasn't affected my betting position which is now all out on Jezza. I won't let any sentiments get in the way of hard readies.

    Have you joined Dan Hodges on his journey ?


  • Also when did UK or English forces enter:

    Romania?
    Slovakia?
    Hungary?
    Kazakhstan?

    I'm imagining Kazakhstan would have been Great Game/Crimean war stuff.

    TBF to the bloke:

    "Only a comparatively small proportion of the total in Mr Laycock's list of invaded states actually formed an official part of the empire.The remainder have been included because the British were found to have achieved some sort of military presence in the territory – however transitory – either through force, the threat of force, negotiation or payment.

    Incursions by British pirates, privateers or armed explorers have also been included, provided they were operating with the approval of their government.The research lists countries based on their current national boundaries and names. Many of the invasions took place when these did not apply."
    No British forces entered that far north during the Great Game or during the Crimean War.

    Also he forgot the British presence 1810-1812 on the Swedish island of Hano (which I mentioned earlier)!
  • Plato said:

    Ouch.

    Labour is now as toxic in the South - the South East (outside London), South West and East Anglia – as the Tories are in the North. 42 per cent of voters in the South say they will never vote Labour and 43 per cent of voters in the North say they will never vote Conservative. The full significance of this for Labour lies in the fact that it must win 27 seats in the South to gain a majority of one on a uniform national swing.

    The regional dimension to Labour’s toxicity is compounded among the over 60s – the age group most likely to vote. 45 per cent say they will never vote Labour and just 30 per cent say they will never vote Conservative. Unless Labour detoxifies its brand with the grey vote it will find it all but impossible to win a majority again.

    Oooh, this is interesting. Labour now nearly as toxic as the Tories. Corbyn's victory might spell *CROSSOVER*.

    ttps://twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/633603004290232321



    The issue with this is there are 197 constituencies in the South outside London and 158 in the North (out of 650)

    With the boundary changes that looks set to become 191 for the South and 143 for the North (out of 600)

    This means the South will be up to almost a third of seats after the boundary changes.

    I don't see Corbyn doing much to help Lab in the south. For example, he has mooted a 7% rise in NI for those earning over 50k. Now if you are earning 50k in the North then you are going to be pretty well off, but in the South East it doesn't stretch as far with high housing and transport costs
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Sandpit said:

    Plato said:

    I quite agree - traveling en masse to the other side of the globe > to zap local Argies > over a couple tiny islands...

    Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    So do not mess with us!
    Seriously, after the Falkands war and the privatisations, doing business internationally from the late 1980s as a UK company became much easier and doors opened up to us. We were back and respected.
    And if the Argies think they can try it again, they'll find the British just as eager to ensure that they fail again too!!

    Unfortunately both sides look very different militarily to how they did in 1982, we'll never again be able to mount the quite amazingly ingenious operation that was Black Buck.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck
    Black Buck was an amazing operation, but I find it hard to argue that the one bomb that landed on the runway did much, strategically or tactically, to alter the outcome of the war. It was a gloriously wasted effort.

    But I'm still glad the RAF did it.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    Sandpit said:

    Plato said:

    I quite agree - traveling en masse to the other side of the globe > to zap local Argies > over a couple tiny islands...

    Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    So do not mess with us!
    Seriously, after the Falkands war and the privatisations, doing business internationally from the late 1980s as a UK company became much easier and doors opened up to us. We were back and respected.
    And if the Argies think they can try it again, they'll find the British just as eager to ensure that they fail again too!!

    Unfortunately both sides look very different militarily to how they did in 1982, we'll never again be able to mount the quite amazingly ingenious operation that was Black Buck.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck
    Black Buck was an amazing operation, but I find it hard to argue that the one bomb that landed on the runway did much, strategically or tactically, to alter the outcome of the war. It was a gloriously wasted effort.

    But I'm still glad the RAF did it.
    It sent a message.

    If we could get a bomb to Stanley, it was possible to drop others on Buenos Aires, and industrial targets on the mainland.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    edited August 2015



    Black Buck was an amazing operation, but I find it hard to argue that the one bomb that landed on the runway did much, strategically or tactically, to alter the outcome of the war. It was a gloriously wasted effort.

    But I'm still glad the RAF did it.

    The man you need to talk to about that mission is Andy Cooke, gent of this parish. I once made a disparaging remark about Black Buck and the one bomb in his hearing and got full chapter and verse back. Fellow knows what he is talking about and he changed my view about the Operation's military value.

    Doesn't stop me tweaking his tail about other "failures" by Crab Air though. Including of course the famous question, "When was the last time the RAF shot down an enemy aircraft?"
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Sean_F said:

    antifrank said:

    Sean_F said:

    antifrank said:

    For those that can get through the FT paywall, this was interesting on Russia this morning:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c8b034ac-44ca-11e5-b3b2-1672f710807b.html#axzz3j5nOqGOl

    "From any longer-term perspective, the striking feature of Mr Putin’s Russia is not its strength but its alarming brittleness."

    "It is not only Mr Putin’s political model that looks outdated. Russia’s economy appears equally threadbare. Under the strains of lower energy prices, western sanctions and massive capital flight, Russia’s economy contracted 4.6 per cent in the second quarter of 2015 compared with the same period the previous year. Real incomes are falling for the first time in Mr Putin’s rule.

    The Soviet Union once vied with the US for economic supremacy; now, America’s gross domestic product using purchasing power parity is five times larger than Russia’s. If, as some suggest, we have reached “peak demand” for oil then Russia’s economy looks vulnerable given its failure to diversify. It has no new model for growth.

    Underlying this economic fragility is a demographic disaster. Russia’s population has fallen to 142m, smaller than that of Bangladesh. Many of its best brains are quitting the country, or are being forced to do so. A recent Russian report into the country’s demographic trends concluded: “If the situation does not improve the country can expect problems in the economy, international competitiveness and, in a long-term perspective, geopolitics too.” "

    The Soviet Union was never really close to the USA in terms of economic clout (Soviet economic statistics were pie in the sky). I'm sure that the Soviet economy was a good deal less than one fifth the size of the US economy.
    Well yes, that is the weakest point of the article.
    Admittedly, the CIA seems to have taken Soviet economic statistics at face value. I can remember books from the 1980s showing East German GDP per head higher than our own, and Soviet GDP per head not far short of it.
    That said, under the Soviet model, the economy of the entire soviet area sought to be pretty much self-sufficient and independent. That is no longer the case. Much of that economy has simply vanished, or fallen into the Western orbit.

    Without reforms across the board to protect foreign investors, it is hard to see how Russia gets out of this hole. If oil stays in its current trading range, surely Russia's two sovereign funds will be bankrupt within 2-3 years, so the investment will have to come from outside. Who apart from the West, can invest on that scale? China is the only country that springs to mind, and they are likely to drive very hard bargains.
  • Plato said:

    Britain has invaded all but 22 countries during our colourful history

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02388/BRITAIN_2388153b.jpg

    JEO said:

    Dair said:

    JEO said:

    Must admit, I still have a niggling doubt.

    Are Labour really going for a unilaterialist republican who thinks we should leave NATO, snuggle up toe Russia and has friends in Hamas?

    It shows how strong the influence of the mainstream media is that even avowedly thoughtful individuals still regard normalising relations with nuclear superpower Russia as an odd or leftfield foreign policy aim. How long has this anti-Russia meme been going on - a couple of years? That's all the time it's taken for the hysteria to take hold. Tell me, if we would be 'snuggling up' to Russia, what would you term our current position vis a vi the US or Saudi Arabia? Halfway up the small intenstine?
    If Saudi Arabia or the USA decided to annex parts of neighbouring countries, I'd be all in favour of cutting ties with them.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Grenada
    and before your time admittedly:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii
    Don't forget Puerto Rico and Cuba.
    It seems odd to use Cuba and Grenada, countries the USA voluntarily gave independence to, as examples of US annexing its neighbours. As for Hawaii and Puerto Rico, going back to the 19th Century to find similar behaviour kind of demonstrates the point. There's literally no-one alive in the world today when that happened.
    Quite right there are always reasons/excuses to invade, Putin may say he invaded because the elected head of state in Ukraine was deposed. Or more likely say that he didn't invade!
    In Grenada the USA pulled out their troops within 2 months of going in and a year later elections took place and no territory was annexed for an American base or an American satellite state. Unlike the Ukraine under Putin.
    I'm not defending Putin, I'll leave that to UKIP and Corbyn.
    I'd just like to see some PB people being able to see shades of grey. Not everything the US does is whiter than white.
    Never said the USA are. Just usually better than Russia.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    How do I know JC doesn't want to be PM? Because he hasn't endorsed any of the Deputy Leadership candidates (AFAIK). Brown may say that Labour must not become a "Party of protest" but that's exactly what's got people to join (or rejoin).

    I remember back in the 1970s being told that, whilst Labour might sometimes take office, the Tories were always in power. The experiece of 1997-2010 has confirmed that for many people - the only ones who disbelieve it seem to be the Tory activists on here!

    By 2010 there was a 50% top tax rate and spending at almost 48% of GDP, hardly Tory
    But that is still significantly lower than the 60% top rate we had for nine years under Thatcher.
    Cut from the 90% she inherited
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