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  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 5,997

    Dair said:

    Speedy said:

    While on the subject of Slovakia and Scotland, there's a very distinctive bridge across the Danube in Bratislava, near the castle, called the SNP Bridge.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_SNP

    "SNP" is the Slovak National Uprising against the Nazis, rather than in honour of Salmond.

    I can't understand the linguistic differences of all the central european nations, polish sounds exactly like czech and hungarian.
    I think all of them from Lithuania to Croatia speak the same language with only slight regional differences, the culture and food is also very similar.
    Normally an area with a common language is within the same state, not in a dozen states, must be an Austro-hungarian thing.

    Goodnight.
    It can't be an Austro-Hungarian thing.

    Hungarian is a language very much out of place (and as far as I know it is still somewhat of a mystery).
    I am married to a Hungarian and can assure you it is not just the language that is a mystery when they all get together.

    Slavic languages are mostly much closer to each other linguistically than, say, the Germanic languages are, hence the similarities. However Hungarian is an outlier as is Estonian (similar to Finnish) and Latvian and Lithuanian are in a different Baltic language group. There was historically a large but high-status German minority in the Baltic states which probably explains some of the similarities of cuisine etc.
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    isam said:

    Doublespeak deciphered: Andrew Lansley dares to reveal the truth about David Cameron's EU plan

    "It is no secret that politicians use one sort of language in public and another when talking among themselves. For public consumption, everything a politician does is driven by a high-minded desire to do what is right. In private, they acknowledge that low calculation and partisan interest pervade the political process.

    When Andrew Lansley was a Cabinet minister, from 2010 to 2014, he remembered how to choose his words carefully in public. Since retiring from the Commons in May, he seems to have forgotten the rules of political doublespeak. Talking to business leaders, he laid bare the tactics that he believes David Cameron will adopt in the run-up to the referendum on British membership in the European Union which Lansley anticipates will be held in September next year.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/doublespeak-deciphered-andrew-lansley-dares-to-reveal-the-truth-about-david-camerons-eu-plan-10459808.html

    I would take it with a shovelfull of salt. Lansley is just trying to tilt the playing field to the outers by his own dirty tricks.
    Strewth I would never have though such a suggestion would have come from you Dr Fox, had it been a pro-EU view I have no doubt it would have been described as the gospel truth no matter how dodgy the provenance.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    isam said:

    Doublespeak deciphered: Andrew Lansley dares to reveal the truth about David Cameron's EU plan

    "It is no secret that politicians use one sort of language in public and another when talking among themselves. For public consumption, everything a politician does is driven by a high-minded desire to do what is right. In private, they acknowledge that low calculation and partisan interest pervade the political process.

    When Andrew Lansley was a Cabinet minister, from 2010 to 2014, he remembered how to choose his words carefully in public. Since retiring from the Commons in May, he seems to have forgotten the rules of political doublespeak. Talking to business leaders, he laid bare the tactics that he believes David Cameron will adopt in the run-up to the referendum on British membership in the European Union which Lansley anticipates will be held in September next year.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/doublespeak-deciphered-andrew-lansley-dares-to-reveal-the-truth-about-david-camerons-eu-plan-10459808.html

    I would take it with a shovelfull of salt. Lansley is just trying to tilt the playing field to the outers by his own dirty tricks.
    He is not bright enough for that to be the case
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Scott_P said:
    It seems the same bunch of people who spent ages kidding themselves about Miliband are determined to do it again.
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    chestnut said:

    Scott_P said:
    It seems the same bunch of people who spent ages kidding themselves about Miliband are determined to do it again.
    If you read the article you'll see he thinks Corbyn has the same chance as any of the other candidates in 2020 - slim. But that the detritus of the new labour needs clearing, in order that labour can find some direction again. There is no doubt this is the case.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    chestnut said:

    Scott_P said:
    It seems the same bunch of people who spent ages kidding themselves about Miliband are determined to do it again.
    he says thatcher was seen as an extremist in 1974/75. Was she? She was just a middling cabinet minister under Heath. Maybe viewed as not up to the job...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    isam said:


    Telegraph front page says Harman attempt's to call off Labour contest

    Appallingly misleading apostrophe and letter 's' misplacement
    It's not misleading, just totally wrong. I'm sure TSE was just in an excitable mood when he composed the message!
    Hoisted by own petard, after I criticised Douglas Carswell for a typo last night and he wasn't happy with my pedantry

    In my defence, I'm writing Sunday's thread, and it contains the following phrase

    "If you're a Scottish Nationalist, you might want to skip the next paragraph"
    One hope it describes the intricacies of AV vis-à-vis the Scottish Parliament elections, and how it means the Tories will be romping home to an absolute majority in 2016?

    Hopefully....
    That's an awful lot of hope there
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. JEO, I agree. Translators who help the British army should get priority to migrate here.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited August 2015
    JWisemann said:

    chestnut said:

    Scott_P said:
    It seems the same bunch of people who spent ages kidding themselves about Miliband are determined to do it again.
    If you read the article you'll see he thinks Corbyn has the same chance as any of the other candidates in 2020 - slim. But that the detritus of the new labour needs clearing, in order that labour can find some direction again. There is no doubt this is the case.
    If Corbyn has a slim chance in 2020, on which I think we can agree, and the aim is to sweep out the Blairite dross and replace them presumably with true sons and daughters of the socialist soil, and remake the party in Corbyn's image (he who at your own admission has a slim chance), what's the point ?

    If you perpetuate a party with a slim-to-none chance of getting elected the left leaning public are soon going to get fed up and going looking for someone else to vote for that can get elected and actually change things and, by their own thinking, improve their lives.

    The public's tolerance for voting for an unelectable talking shop is going to be pretty limited.
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    Corbyn has as good a chance as any of the other candidates is the point, and we'll have to disagree about the long term consequences of clearing out the spads and blank suits and rebuilding a grassroots party.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited August 2015
    JWisemann said:

    Corbyn has as good a chance as any of the other candidates is the point, and we'll have to disagree about the long term consequences of clearing out the spads and blank suits and rebuilding a grassroots party.

    Only if you consider syphilis less dangerous than clap. the body of The Blair era and mentions of Blairite have to be cleansed, especially because of its connotations to illegal wars....but treating it with something that will kill the body is sub optimal.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    JWisemann said:
    You are way too high in your estimation there, think nappies.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    JWisemann said:

    chestnut said:

    Scott_P said:
    It seems the same bunch of people who spent ages kidding themselves about Miliband are determined to do it again.
    If you read the article you'll see he thinks Corbyn has the same chance as any of the other candidates in 2020 - slim. But that the detritus of the new labour needs clearing, in order that labour can find some direction again. There is no doubt this is the case.
    Funnily enough that 'direction' they need is the one which chimes with their own world-view... strange how that happens.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    The Zoomers are up early. Is it Giro day already?
    ONE of Nicola Sturgeon's key ministers is fighting to save her political career amid a furious scramble within the SNP to become candidates in next year's Holyrood election.

    Maureen Watt, the minister for public health, faces being ousted from her seat by regional MSP Christian Allard, who is bidding to stand in the Aberdeen constituency she won from the Lib Dems in 2011.

    Sitting MSPs are rarely challenged and battles between established Holyrood figures are almost unheard of.

    But the contest to become the Nationalist candidate in Aberdeen South and North Kincardine is just the latest in a series of fierce struggles as senior party figures try to secure a constituency to fight next May.
    http://m.heraldscotland.com/news/13611703.Minister_fights_for_her_political_career_in_SNP_s_scramble_for_seats/

  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    ITV News

    Harman calls in Lawyers over labour leadership race
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    edited August 2015
    Fitalass,

    "Why am I not surprised that Corbyn does worst with those with the longest memories ...."

    Exactly so. Jezza is an anachronism, a piece of slimy seaweed left when the tide recedes. A refugee from the Grosvenor Square riots of the sixties. I suspect he still buys the same variety of vest. The demented loon who would regale you with the need to smash capitalism by being the vanguard of the working class.

    The world has moved on but he never will. The Berlin wall has fallen. I feel a smidgeon of sympathy for an old man who tries to retain the simplicities of his childhood. I would take him by the elbow and lead him to a place of shelter.

    But vote for him?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Moses_ said:

    ITV News

    Harman calls in Lawyers over labour leadership race

    This is not going to end well for Labour.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    edited August 2015
    Watching the ITV1doc last night about some pupils and their head at a coed-public school day/boarding from Wiltshire spending a week at a Comp in Derby (ex Grammar School), two things became obvious very quickly.

    The Comp often receives new pupils each week, many of whom have little English. Surely this must disrupt the class and should not all these be put into a reception class (regardless of age) until their English is sufficient or even attend another specialist establishment to achieve that primary objective.

    Also the school day at the Comp ends one hour earlier than that of the Public school. and the latchkey children just go home to game etc. Would not that extra hour at school, help both parents and for their children to do extra cultural things?
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    Scott can add self-awareness to qualities he isn't over endowed with.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Moses_ said:

    ITV News

    Harman calls in Lawyers over labour leadership race

    This is not going to end well for Labour.
    .. but its going to provide endless hours of fun.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited August 2015

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. JEO, I agree. Translators who help the British army should get priority to migrate here.

    Quite. This is what should be leading the news, genuine seekers of asylum who helped our country, rather than the criminals in Calais.
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082

    JWisemann said:

    chestnut said:

    Scott_P said:
    It seems the same bunch of people who spent ages kidding themselves about Miliband are determined to do it again.
    If you read the article you'll see he thinks Corbyn has the same chance as any of the other candidates in 2020 - slim. But that the detritus of the new labour needs clearing, in order that labour can find some direction again. There is no doubt this is the case.
    Funnily enough that 'direction' they need is the one which chimes with their own world-view... strange how that happens.
    Just a direction would be a good start. As it goes the party has no purpose or meaning and attracts the contempt it deserves.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Moses_ said:

    ITV News

    Harman calls in Lawyers over labour leadership race

    Just when we think the Labour leadership race can't possibly get any more surreal...
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Presumably the detritus of the Labour Party that most need clearing out are those that engaged in Blairite spin and underground backstabbing, and that voted heavily for the Iraq War and against its investigation?
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    JWisemann said:

    Corbyn has as good a chance as any of the other candidates is the point, and we'll have to disagree about the long term consequences of clearing out the spads and blank suits and rebuilding a grassroots party.

    I think that history can teach us a bit about the long term consequences of a left-wing Labour Party, namely only one working majority (1966) since 1951. (1)

    Whereas New Labour achieved three consecutive victories, two of them being landslides. (And New Labour was Labour - don't try and pretend that the Tories would have done the vast majority of things that they did between 1997 and 2010)

    (1) Plus, tiny, unstable majorities in 1964 and 1974
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Jessop, madness, whether it fails or succeeds.

    But it is indicative of the fear many have of Corbyn winning.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    OT

    Some interesting pics of the 1960s when children seemed to have more degrees of freedom than today (within defined boundaries).

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3202723/Who-needs-PlayStation-Incredible-pictures-1960s-capture-days-slums-era-health-safety-ruled-children.html
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Indigo said:

    isam said:

    Doublespeak deciphered: Andrew Lansley dares to reveal the truth about David Cameron's EU plan

    "It is no secret that politicians use one sort of language in public and another when talking among themselves. For public consumption, everything a politician does is driven by a high-minded desire to do what is right. In private, they acknowledge that low calculation and partisan interest pervade the political process.

    When Andrew Lansley was a Cabinet minister, from 2010 to 2014, he remembered how to choose his words carefully in public. Since retiring from the Commons in May, he seems to have forgotten the rules of political doublespeak. Talking to business leaders, he laid bare the tactics that he believes David Cameron will adopt in the run-up to the referendum on British membership in the European Union which Lansley anticipates will be held in September next year.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/doublespeak-deciphered-andrew-lansley-dares-to-reveal-the-truth-about-david-camerons-eu-plan-10459808.html

    I would take it with a shovelfull of salt. Lansley is just trying to tilt the playing field to the outers by his own dirty tricks.
    Strewth I would never have though such a suggestion would have come from you Dr Fox, had it been a pro-EU view I have no doubt it would have been described as the gospel truth no matter how dodgy the provenance.
    Lansley is an arch moderniser and very pro-EU, so the idea he is secretly an agent of Liam Fox is completely bonkers.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695
    Moses_ said:

    ITV News

    Harman calls in Lawyers over labour leadership race

    Nothing can stop the Corbyn bandwagon now!

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038

    Moses_ said:

    ITV News

    Harman calls in Lawyers over labour leadership race

    This is not going to end well for Labour.
    .. but its going to provide endless hours of fun.
    Morning all,

    BBC says the lawyers are checking whether other lawyers may say race did not comply with the law after the event.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Moses_ said:

    ITV News

    Harman calls in Lawyers over labour leadership race

    This is not going to end well for Labour.
    .. but its going to provide endless hours of fun.
    Morning all,

    BBC says the lawyers are checking whether other lawyers may say race did not comply with the law after the event.
    Well if the Labour party has got an extra 600k from sign ups, the lawyers will burn that off soon enough.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited August 2015
    JEO said:

    Indigo said:

    isam said:

    Doublespeak deciphered: Andrew Lansley dares to reveal the truth about David Cameron's EU plan

    "It is no secret that politicians use one sort of language in public and another when talking among themselves. For public consumption, everything a politician does is driven by a high-minded desire to do what is right. In private, they acknowledge that low calculation and partisan interest pervade the political process.

    When Andrew Lansley was a Cabinet minister, from 2010 to 2014, he remembered how to choose his words carefully in public. Since retiring from the Commons in May, he seems to have forgotten the rules of political doublespeak. Talking to business leaders, he laid bare the tactics that he believes David Cameron will adopt in the run-up to the referendum on British membership in the European Union which Lansley anticipates will be held in September next year.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/editorials/doublespeak-deciphered-andrew-lansley-dares-to-reveal-the-truth-about-david-camerons-eu-plan-10459808.html

    I would take it with a shovelfull of salt. Lansley is just trying to tilt the playing field to the outers by his own dirty tricks.
    Strewth I would never have though such a suggestion would have come from you Dr Fox, had it been a pro-EU view I have no doubt it would have been described as the gospel truth no matter how dodgy the provenance.
    Lansley is an arch moderniser and very pro-EU, so the idea he is secretly an agent of Liam Fox is completely bonkers.
    Well quite. Personally I am soft-BOO, I really cant see the point of staying in at the moment, but if Cameron came home with the sort of deal mentioned down thread (ability to negotiate our own FTAs, supremacy of UK law over EU law, opt out of CAP and CFP, EU budget cap etc), one that gives real freedoms and controls back to the UK, I could hold my nose and vote for it.

    Some people around here give the impression that they will wave their pompoms in the air and chant "EU-EU-EU" no matter how disreputable or disingenuous the results of the negotiation are, and no matter how threadbare and non-existent the compromise. ...he which hath no stomach to this fight, Let him depart; his passport shall be made, And crowns for convoy put into his purse; We would not die in that man's company; That fears his fellowship to die with us. ;)

    "I have in my hand a piece of paper signed by Mr Juncker" - D. Cameron, 2017
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    So... errr if they call the race null and void, then omit corbyn from the re-selection process by MPs..then that's going to piss a lot of people off.
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    Disraeli said:

    JWisemann said:

    Corbyn has as good a chance as any of the other candidates is the point, and we'll have to disagree about the long term consequences of clearing out the spads and blank suits and rebuilding a grassroots party.

    I think that history can teach us a bit about the long term consequences of a left-wing Labour Party, namely only one working majority (1966) since 1951. (1)

    Whereas New Labour achieved three consecutive victories, two of them being landslides. (And New Labour was Labour - don't try and pretend that the Tories would have done the vast majority of things that they did between 1997 and 2010)

    (1) Plus, tiny, unstable majorities in 1964 and 1974
    the Tories have only won big majorities for the last 50 years under thatcher, this bizarre logic-shy cherry picking fools no one.
    Castro himself could have won for labour in 1997 - the new labourites just happened to be in the right place at the right time.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    AndyJS said:

    Y0kel said:

    I'm curious as to what people think might be a dangerous 1st preference percentage for Corbyn, assuming he is transfer repellent.

    Is it 40% or substantially less?

    The other question is how likely are the supporters of the other 3 to vote down the card?

    Finally will all these new bods who joined for 3 quid actually bother voting?

    I'd guess that around 42-43% for Corbyn in the first round would mean he'd be more than 50% likely to be elected.
    2nd and 3rd prefs are all over the shop (as we've seen here) - the idea that there are solid bloc votes swinging from X to Y is for the birds. If Corbyn gets 40% on the first ballot he should win, 35% would be more doubtful. I doubt if he'll win on the first ballot but that doesn't rule him out.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    So... errr if they call the race null and void, then omit corbyn from the re-selection process by MPs..then that's going to piss a lot of people off.

    As Gorgeous George was saying on LBC yesterday, we could have Corbyn as Leader of the Labour party, but not in the HOC with Labour MP's voting someone else to be their leader.. Its such a delicious thought.
  • eekeek Posts: 24,797
    Financier said:

    Watching the ITV1doc last night about some pupils and their head at a coed-public school day/boarding from Wiltshire spending a week at a Comp in Derby (ex Grammar School), two things became obvious very quickly.

    The Comp often receives new pupils each week, many of whom have little English. Surely this must disrupt the class and should not all these be put into a reception class (regardless of age) until their English is sufficient or even attend another specialist establishment to achieve that primary objective.

    Also the school day at the Comp ends one hour earlier than that of the Public school. and the latchkey children just go home to game etc. Would not that extra hour at school, help both parents and for their children to do extra cultural things?

    Keeping a school open an hour longer would just cost money the school doesn't have. Granted it would be sensible for home work to be done then and would allow children to find answers to anything they didn't understand but I don't think the willingness from both management, teachers and parents is there.

    My girls school offers such a club. Its remarkable how few children / parents who could make use of it actually do....
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    JWisemann said:

    But that the detritus of the new labour needs clearing, in order that labour can find some direction again. There is no doubt this is the case.

    Wasn't that something Miliband was supposed to have done?

    Bringing back socialism, or such like.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    Scott_P said:

    the latest in a series of fierce struggles as senior party figures try to secure a constituency to fight next May.

    It'll be as nothing compared to the 'fierce struggles' of those senior SCon party figures (stop laughing at the back there) to get up the regional lists and consign the rest of their no-hopers to constituency lost causes.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    edited August 2015
    Mr Wiseman,

    Were Jezza to be LOTO, you could limit the damage by marketing his foibles. Go back to the late sixties, dress him in a string vest emblazoned with 1967, turn him into a Superhero called Retro Man.

    Have a children's group called the Corbynteenies, and change the name of the country to the Peoples' Democratic Republic of Atlantica.

    The problem is that no one over sixty takes him seriously.

    Edit. .. Dr P says he does, but as Mrs Dale used to say in the early sixties ... I'm getting worried about Nick
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/598776/David-Cameron-European-Union-renegotiation-choreograph-fight-French-government
    He is also said to have disclosed that the long-awaited referendum is scheduled for next September to avoid clashing with local elections next May and the Tory party conference in early October.

    The notes from his speech to business leaders were seen by a Sunday newspaper.

    “UK public expectations from renegotiation need to be realistic (and be downplayed at the outset) and then be exceeded,” The Sunday Times quoted them as saying.

    “Other EU governments should recognise the need for UK ‘wins’, preferably following some ‘rows’.”

    Mr Farage said: "It is clear that Cameron's so-called renegotiation is a complete con job. Only the other day, the government were saying that Treaty change would be required but we now know that is no longer on the table either."
    Shabby.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191

    Moses_ said:

    ITV News

    Harman calls in Lawyers over labour leadership race

    This is not going to end well for Labour.
    Labour seem concerned about the challengers contesting the result, but surely there is risk of those being denied a vote raising an objection. For example, the party are attempting to identify supporters of other parties through canvas returns, which can be somewhat unreliable.

    Voters are entitled to 'float' and have Damascene conversions. Somebody who supported Natalie Bennett in May, may wish to legitimately support Jeremy Corbyn today. Plato of this parish once supported Blair, so may now wish to support Liz Kendall :-)

  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Party grandees from Tony Blair to Gordon Brown have speeded Mr Corbyn’s ascent with their apocalyptic warnings. David Miliband has swept in belatedly to endorse Liz Kendall, who is likely to come last, while his brother Ed has (wisely) fled the country without comment. Meanwhile the camps of Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper have resorted to a scrap more reminiscent of playground hair‑pulling than political debate.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11810687/Jeremy-Corbyn-is-no-monster.-He-might-even-be-the-saviour-of-the-Labour-party.html

    includes a good cartoon on GB.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Indigo said:

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/598776/David-Cameron-European-Union-renegotiation-choreograph-fight-French-government

    He is also said to have disclosed that the long-awaited referendum is scheduled for next September to avoid clashing with local elections next May and the Tory party conference in early October.

    The notes from his speech to business leaders were seen by a Sunday newspaper.

    “UK public expectations from renegotiation need to be realistic (and be downplayed at the outset) and then be exceeded,” The Sunday Times quoted them as saying.

    “Other EU governments should recognise the need for UK ‘wins’, preferably following some ‘rows’.”

    Mr Farage said: "It is clear that Cameron's so-called renegotiation is a complete con job. Only the other day, the government were saying that Treaty change would be required but we now know that is no longer on the table either."
    Shabby.

    Yes, Farage is shabby.
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    JWisemann said:

    Disraeli said:

    JWisemann said:

    Corbyn has as good a chance as any of the other candidates is the point, and we'll have to disagree about the long term consequences of clearing out the spads and blank suits and rebuilding a grassroots party.

    I think that history can teach us a bit about the long term consequences of a left-wing Labour Party, namely only one working majority (1966) since 1951. (1)

    Whereas New Labour achieved three consecutive victories, two of them being landslides. (And New Labour was Labour - don't try and pretend that the Tories would have done the vast majority of things that they did between 1997 and 2010)

    (1) Plus, tiny, unstable majorities in 1964 and 1974
    the Tories have only won big majorities for the last 50 years under thatcher, this bizarre logic-shy cherry picking fools no one.
    Castro himself could have won for labour in 1997 - the new labourites just happened to be in the right place at the right time.
    Wrong. Apart from Thatcher's victories. The Tories also had working majorities in 1951, 1955, 1959 and 1970.
    Plus, Major's victory in 1992 was also sufficient without the party revolts over Europe. (And the fact that revolts can eat into parliamentary majorities is true of ANY party).

    For the avoidance of doubt, I didn't vote for any of these Conservative governments.

    "Castro himself could have won for labour in 1997". Rubbish! Were you even alive then? I was, and remember the mood very well. We all voted Labour back then because we were not frightened by their moderate proposals for reform - which they by and large enacted.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    My CLP has had over 400 new members/supporters since May. Labour only polled c5k votes on May 7th.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    Financier said:

    Party grandees from Tony Blair to Gordon Brown have speeded Mr Corbyn’s ascent with their apocalyptic warnings. David Miliband has swept in belatedly to endorse Liz Kendall, who is likely to come last, while his brother Ed has (wisely) fled the country without comment. Meanwhile the camps of Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper have resorted to a scrap more reminiscent of playground hair‑pulling than political debate.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11810687/Jeremy-Corbyn-is-no-monster.-He-might-even-be-the-saviour-of-the-Labour-party.html

    includes a good cartoon on GB.

    Riddell makes the point that Corbyn will probably not lead Lab into 2020 GE. He will reform the party mechanics, open up democratically etc and then be gone, probably over Trident.

    If JC does win ballot (I will remain sceptical to the bitter end) - this sounds good news for those of us who have already started betting on next lab leader.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited August 2015
    Indigo said:

    JEO said:

    Indigo said:

    isam said:

    Doublespeak deciphered: Andrew Lansley dares to reveal the truth about David Cameron's EU plan

    I would take it with a shovelfull of salt. Lansley is just trying to tilt the playing field to the outers by his own dirty tricks.
    Strewth I would never have though such a suggestion would have come from you Dr Fox, had it been a pro-EU view I have no doubt it would have been described as the gospel truth no matter how dodgy the provenance.
    Lansley is an arch moderniser and very pro-EU, so the idea he is secretly an agent of Liam Fox is completely bonkers.
    Well quite. Personally I am soft-BOO, I really cant see the point of staying in at the moment, but if Cameron came home with the sort of deal mentioned down thread (ability to negotiate our own FTAs, supremacy of UK law over EU law, opt out of CAP and CFP, EU budget cap etc), one that gives real freedoms and controls back to the UK, I could hold my nose and vote for it.

    Some people around here give the impression that they will wave their pompoms in the air and chant "EU-EU-EU" no matter how disreputable or disingenuous the results of the negotiation are, and no matter how threadbare and non-existent the compromise. ...he which hath no stomach to this fight, Let him depart; his passport shall be made, And crowns for convoy put into his purse; We would not die in that man's company; That fears his fellowship to die with us. ;)

    "I have in my hand a piece of paper signed by Mr Juncker" - D. Cameron, 2017
    That is the sensible way of going about it - wait and see what Cameron's Associate EU Membership looks like, then make a decision based on that. But he had better come back with something concrete to sell to us soft-BOO voters, stage concrete made of foam and plaster not only won't do but will lose him millions of people prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt up until now.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    Mr. Jessop, madness, whether it fails or succeeds.

    But it is indicative of the fear many have of Corbyn winning.

    I don't know what the heck Harman's thinking. Miliband suffered from the very start from being seen (rightly or wrongly) as an illegitimate leader: elected not by the members or MPs, but the unions. It was the first layer of concrete around the boots of his leadership (or the first chisel mark on Ed Stone).

    Now, if Corbyn wins, he will be haunted by these allegations that he was elected by non-Labour supporters.

    If ABC win, the mysterious process by which voters were vetted and Harman's attempt will enrage the Corbyn camp;

    If the process is null and voided, the Corbyn camp will see it (perhaps rightly) as a shabby attempt to stop the 'wrong' person from winning.

    She'd have been better off just letting the process continue. The chances of the party pulling together behind whoever wins is very low now.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Given an historic opportunity to pick its first woman leader, what does the party of fairness and equality do? It goes pine nuts over a 66-year-old bearded Trotskyist vegetarian whose first wife, Jane, left him because he spent every evening photocopying documents for the Labour Party, never took her out to dinner once in five years, and ate baked beans out of a can.

    Corbyn divorced his second wife, Claudia, because she refused to send their son to a failing London comprehensive, weirdly preferring a fantastic grammar school of exactly the sort that educated – guess who? – Jeremy Corbyn.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11809421/Liz-Kendall-is-the-only-candidate-who-could-tempt-me-to-vote-Labour-again.html
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Mr Wiseman,

    "Castro himself could have won for labour in 1997."

    You do realise that Fidel wrote to Krushchev during the Cuban missile crisis in 1962 demanding that the USSR launch an immediate nuclear attack on the USA? Had Krushchev complied, there would have been no Election in 1997, no UK, and no Mr Wiseman.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Sandpit, not sure it would cost Cameron millions of votes.

    Lots of people are cautious in general or nervous about the EU specifically. People often opt for the status quo as the 'safe' choice (even though it can often be the most dangerous).

    Shifting lots of votes require either some sort of immediate and large woe from the EU, or an enticing prospect for Out.

    The EU are skilled at slimy, vague spin. Cameron doesn't want to leave. The BBC is pro-EU. The wider establishment is pro-EU. Farage has shot most of his credibility with his ridiculous hokey-cokey approach to resignation.

    Hard for me to see Out winning, alas.
  • New thread.

  • CromwellCromwell Posts: 236

    Financier said:

    Party grandees from Tony Blair to Gordon Brown have speeded Mr Corbyn’s ascent with their apocalyptic warnings. David Miliband has swept in belatedly to endorse Liz Kendall, who is likely to come last, while his brother Ed has (wisely) fled the country without comment. Meanwhile the camps of Andy Burnham and Yvette Cooper have resorted to a scrap more reminiscent of playground hair‑pulling than political debate.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11810687/Jeremy-Corbyn-is-no-monster.-He-might-even-be-the-saviour-of-the-Labour-party.html

    includes a good cartoon on GB.

    Riddell makes the point that Corbyn will probably not lead Lab into 2020 GE. He will reform the party mechanics, open up democratically etc and then be gone, probably over Trident.

    If JC does win ballot (I will remain sceptical to the bitter end) - this sounds good news for those of us who have already started betting on next lab leader.
    I understand your scepticism , after all there is something fairy tale-ish about the rise of Corbyn , but short of Corbyn having a heart attack or possibly being caught in flagrante delicto , dressed in women's underwear and snorting coke , it really does look like it's a done deal ...the LP are on life support and Corbyn is a voodoo/witch doctor trying to resurrect it from death's door

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    New thread.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited August 2015
    Financier said:

    Given an historic opportunity to pick its first woman leader, what does the party of fairness and equality do? It goes pine nuts over a 66-year-old bearded Trotskyist vegetarian whose first wife, Jane, left him because he spent every evening photocopying documents for the Labour Party, never took her out to dinner once in five years, and ate baked beans out of a can.

    Corbyn divorced his second wife, Claudia, because she refused to send their son to a failing London comprehensive, weirdly preferring a fantastic grammar school of exactly the sort that educated – guess who? – Jeremy Corbyn.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11809421/Liz-Kendall-is-the-only-candidate-who-could-tempt-me-to-vote-Labour-again.html

    Quite. That's a really good piece. How many of us here voted for Blair and Cameron, and would like to see a choice of sane parties in 2020, or at least sane opposition in the meantime?
    I have no doubt whatsoever that Elizabeth Louise Kendall would be the Labour leader who would give Tories the biggest headache. Yet, incredibly, as voting in the leadership election takes place this week, Kendall lies in last place. She trails Burnham, the wettest Andy since Pandy, and Yvette Cooper, a human so dutifully dull she should be prescribed on the NHS as a cure for insomnia.
    :lol:
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited August 2015

    Indigo said:

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/598776/David-Cameron-European-Union-renegotiation-choreograph-fight-French-government

    He is also said to have disclosed that the long-awaited referendum is scheduled for next September to avoid clashing with local elections next May and the Tory party conference in early October.

    The notes from his speech to business leaders were seen by a Sunday newspaper.

    “UK public expectations from renegotiation need to be realistic (and be downplayed at the outset) and then be exceeded,” The Sunday Times quoted them as saying.

    “Other EU governments should recognise the need for UK ‘wins’, preferably following some ‘rows’.”

    Mr Farage said: "It is clear that Cameron's so-called renegotiation is a complete con job. Only the other day, the government were saying that Treaty change would be required but we now know that is no longer on the table either."
    Shabby.
    Yes, Farage is shabby.

    Good of you to engage on the issues. Playing the man is so much easier than playing the ball after all.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited August 2015
    .
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