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  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Y0kel said:

    It doesn't matter who Labour put in as Shadow NI Secretary.

    They will be sidelined anyway if need be to nothing but the effective political equivalent of a person with a placard standing at a gate. Its a well worn path in this part of the world.

    Case Study: Kevin McNamara.

    It does matter. Northern Ireland is in a dangerous position, that could be made worse if the UK parties can't put on a united front.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Mr Bryant did offer the matching Y-fronts though.
    SeanT said:

    Guido reporting that Chris Bryant has also been purged.

    That nice Mister Corbyn is exterminating all the righties and centrists and Blairites. He really is a socialist firebrand, albeit with lots of vests.

    It looks grimmer by the day for Labour. The far left is seizing the party.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    surbiton said:

    What are the odds of Tom Watson being the next leader ? Take it seriously.

    I think that's not a bad call.

    The bat taker homes are out of the running in any system that allows 1 person 1 vote IMO
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    edited September 2015
    Moses_ said:

    So where is Roger tonight?

    Merkel puts up the border controls abandoning those she called to come to Europe. Tends of thousands abandoned across the continent in other countries that has Bourne the brunt.
    Refugees mixed in with migrants, economic migrants and no doubt the odd terrorist.

    Cameron called for aid to be directed at the camps and this country is doing so. Also taking refugees direct from the camps as this government stated should happen to avoid the terrible journeys they are undertaking and the payments to the people traffickers.

    Roger called this government useless said they were doing nothing and was praising Merkel and the Germans to high heaven just a few days ago.

    I would suggest he sticks to the Oscars ( he is actually very good at that)

    We're not doing so admirably according to this Syrian..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?t=804&v=pHFnvFbThDE
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    Have Bryant and Lewis been "sacked" or told they won't have the jobs they've had to date?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    JEO said:

    So Ivan Lewis has been sacked by Corbyn as part of his bridge building. Who will get the shadow NI role now? I imagine Labour will become more overtly pro-Nationalist/Republican.

    I don't know much about Ivan Lewis. Could you tell me more about the implications of what sacking him means?

    A Blairite. Offered to stay on in shadow cabinet given current problems in NI. Corbyn said no.

    And Ivan Lewis is Jewish.

    The optics are horrible on so many levels.
    Didn't Corbyn once call for an enquiry into Jewish influence over the Conservative Party?
  • SeanT said:

    Guido reporting that Chris Bryant has also been purged.

    That nice Mister Corbyn is exterminating all the righties and centrists and Blairites. He really is a socialist firebrand, albeit with lots of vests.

    It looks grimmer by the day for Labour. The far left is seizing the party.

    It can't be so. I'm sure that nice Mr Palmer told us that Corbyn would be inclusive and would talk to all sides of the party ...

    ... unless the talking was simply Corbyn saying: "You're fired!"
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Irresponsible meddling, grandstanding and giving a platform/endorsement to all sorts of undesirables.

    alex. said:

    JEO said:

    So Ivan Lewis has been sacked by Corbyn as part of his bridge building. Who will get the shadow NI role now? I imagine Labour will become more overtly pro-Nationalist/Republican.

    I don't know much about Ivan Lewis. Could you tell me more about the implications of what sacking him means?

    A Blairite. Offered to stay on in shadow cabinet given current problems in NI. Corbyn said no.

    Looks like a pretty generous offer that has been chucked back in his face. To put it mildly, now is not a good time to have either someone new getting up to speed on the issues, or to start playing party politics with the role.
    So who has Corbyn got?
    Maybe Corbyn thinks that he knows more about the NI situation from his friends there in Sinn Fein? Even more worrying.

    On so many levels Corbyn is a real threat to the UK.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited September 2015
    ydoethur said:

    JEO said:

    So Ivan Lewis has been sacked by Corbyn as part of his bridge building. Who will get the shadow NI role now? I imagine Labour will become more overtly pro-Nationalist/Republican.

    I don't know much about Ivan Lewis. Could you tell me more about the implications of what sacking him means?

    A Blairite. Offered to stay on in shadow cabinet given current problems in NI. Corbyn said no.

    And Ivan Lewis is Jewish.

    The optics are horrible on so many levels.

    Yep. Hopefully that is a coincidence. That we are even contemplating it tells you something about Jezza's friends - real world and online.

    From the Guardian:
    When Labour was selecting a new Scottish leader last year, and Watson backed Neil Findlay over Jim Murphy, Ivan Lewis, a member of the shadow cabinet, openly attacked Watson. He tweeted: “I want the party to choose leaders in an open democratic way. Your problem is, this is one leadership election you can’t manipulate”.
    I sense Watson's presence behind this. There's clearly been a bit of needle there for a long while.

    Of course, it probably doesn't help that Lewis is just about everything Corbyn despises.

    Well, Mr Lewis, you got your wish !
  • surbiton said:

    What are the odds of Tom Watson being the next leader ? Take it seriously.

    I think that's not a bad call.

    The bat taker homes are out of the running in any system that allows 1 person 1 vote IMO
    Tom Watson follows me on twitter. I'll try and get him to stand when it is best for PBers betting positions.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Kevin McGuigan murder: Sinn Féin's Bobby Storey says IRA is 'not coming back'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34238430

    WTF are you on Sunil. Give it a rest.
  • Sean_F said:

    JEO said:

    So Ivan Lewis has been sacked by Corbyn as part of his bridge building. Who will get the shadow NI role now? I imagine Labour will become more overtly pro-Nationalist/Republican.

    I don't know much about Ivan Lewis. Could you tell me more about the implications of what sacking him means?

    A Blairite. Offered to stay on in shadow cabinet given current problems in NI. Corbyn said no.

    And Ivan Lewis is Jewish.

    The optics are horrible on so many levels.
    Didn't Corbyn once call for an enquiry into Jewish influence over the Conservative Party?
    Well it was the Government

    The left-wing Labour MP Jeremy Corbyn has backed calls for an inquiry into the influence of "pro-Israel lobbying groups" on government policy. The move follows the successful appeal of Raed Salah, a prominent leader of the Islamic Movement in Israel, against Home Office moves to deport him.

    http://bit.ly/1LaOQkN
  • SeanT said:

    Guido reporting that Chris Bryant has also been purged.

    That nice Mister Corbyn is exterminating all the righties and centrists and Blairites. He really is a socialist firebrand, albeit with lots of vests.

    It looks grimmer by the day for Labour. The far left is seizing the party.

    It can't be so. I'm sure that nice Mr Palmer told us that Corbyn would be inclusive and would talk to all sides of the party ...

    ... unless the talking was simply Corbyn saying: "You're fired!"
    First he came for the Blairites – then Jews, then the gays and called it inclusivity...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751
    john_zims said:

    @surbiton

    'Roy Hattersley gives his opinion'

    Does anyone apart from yourself give a toss about what this clapped out rust bucket thinks ?

    I had to quote his book Borrowed Time in my thesis. My external said rather drily: 'I do not take Hattersley too seriously, but it would of course be impossible to take him as seriously as he takes himself.'
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723

    surbiton said:

    What are the odds of Tom Watson being the next leader ? Take it seriously.

    I think that's not a bad call.

    The bat taker homes are out of the running in any system that allows 1 person 1 vote IMO
    Tom Watson follows me on twitter. I'll try and get him to stand when it is best for PBers betting positions.
    lol
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,996
    PB comments have suddenly discovered that all those sacked shadow cabinet members, who were threatening their wallets five months ago, were really quite nice all along.
  • surbiton said:

    What are the odds of Tom Watson being the next leader ? Take it seriously.

    I think that's not a bad call.

    The bat taker homes are out of the running in any system that allows 1 person 1 vote IMO
    Tom Watson follows me on twitter. I'll try and get him to stand when it is best for PBers betting positions.
    lol
    Take the 14/1 on Watson being Labour leader at the GE with Ladbrokes
  • Y0kel said:

    It doesn't matter who Labour put in as Shadow NI Secretary.

    They will be sidelined anyway if need be to nothing but the effective political equivalent of a person with a placard standing at a gate. Its a well worn path in this part of the world.

    Case Study: Kevin McNamara.

    Kevin McGuigan

    Kevin McGuigan murder: Sinn Féin's Bobby Storey says IRA is 'not coming back'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34238430
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Beginning to sound like captain underpants has got the old heave ho
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751
    surbiton said:

    ydoethur said:

    JEO said:

    So Ivan Lewis has been sacked by Corbyn as part of his bridge building. Who will get the shadow NI role now? I imagine Labour will become more overtly pro-Nationalist/Republican.

    I don't know much about Ivan Lewis. Could you tell me more about the implications of what sacking him means?

    A Blairite. Offered to stay on in shadow cabinet given current problems in NI. Corbyn said no.

    And Ivan Lewis is Jewish.

    The optics are horrible on so many levels.

    Yep. Hopefully that is a coincidence. That we are even contemplating it tells you something about Jezza's friends - real world and online.

    From the Guardian:
    When Labour was selecting a new Scottish leader last year, and Watson backed Neil Findlay over Jim Murphy, Ivan Lewis, a member of the shadow cabinet, openly attacked Watson. He tweeted: “I want the party to choose leaders in an open democratic way. Your problem is, this is one leadership election you can’t manipulate”.
    I sense Watson's presence behind this. There's clearly been a bit of needle there for a long while.

    Of course, it probably doesn't help that Lewis is just about everything Corbyn despises.
    Well, Mr Lewis, you got your wish !

    Yes indeed - be careful what you wish for!
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    SeanT said:

    Looks like a long night of phone calls for corbyn. Is there a risk he actually believes his own hype ? Havent yet been convinced that anything happened so far won't result in an absolute disaster for labour.

    He very clearly believes his own hype.
    And nothing wrong with that. Problem is the party itself has no killer instinct these days so they are stuck with him.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Kevin McGuigan murder: Sinn Féin's Bobby Storey says IRA is 'not coming back'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34238430

    WTF are you on Sunil. Give it a rest.
    Why are you threatening him ? This is not Shankill, you know.
  • Y0kel said:

    SeanT said:

    Looks like a long night of phone calls for corbyn. Is there a risk he actually believes his own hype ? Havent yet been convinced that anything happened so far won't result in an absolute disaster for labour.

    He very clearly believes his own hype.
    And nothing wrong with that. Problem is the party itself has no killer instinct these days so they are stuck with him.

    Corbyn 59.5%
    Blairites 40.5%
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    Lewis sacked and so the purge begins

    All rather odd - after yesterday’s resignations, Corbyn’s shadow cabinet continues to shrink.
    Indeed, as well as those refusing to serve Corbyn having left, Corbyn is now beginning to sack those he refuses to serve with, so the remaining Shadow Cabinet will be presumably be what is left in the middle of a venn diagram of the two
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751
    Well, I am off again. Have a good week everyone. My condolences to the sensible members of the Labour party - I hope things are not quite as bad as we all fear.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    surbiton said:

    Kevin McGuigan murder: Sinn Féin's Bobby Storey says IRA is 'not coming back'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34238430

    WTF are you on Sunil. Give it a rest.
    Why are you threatening him ? This is not Shankill, you know.
    Where was the threat?
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,996
    Y0kel said:

    It doesn't matter who Labour put in as Shadow NI Secretary.

    They will be sidelined anyway if need be to nothing but the effective political equivalent of a person with a placard standing at a gate. Its a well worn path in this part of the world.

    Case Study: Kevin McNamara.

    This is basically true.

    It is irrelevant who is Labour's shadow Northern Ireland secretary. In fact, the identity even of the actual Northern Ireland secretary is barely relevant nowadays. PB comments are interested mainly because it pleases them to imagine a new Dreyfuss affair.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Y0kel said:

    SeanT said:

    Looks like a long night of phone calls for corbyn. Is there a risk he actually believes his own hype ? Havent yet been convinced that anything happened so far won't result in an absolute disaster for labour.

    He very clearly believes his own hype.
    And nothing wrong with that. Problem is the party itself has no killer instinct these days so they are stuck with him.

    Corbyn 59.5%
    Blairites 40.5%
    Wrong:

    Corbyn 59.5%
    Balancing Actors 36%
    Blairites 4.5%
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    SeanT said:

    But you see he was taken out of context. The context being that he is stupid, sinister, fellow traveller with Islamists.

    Corbyn says some flat-out barmy stuff in public, so what the hell does he say in private? That is a job for red top right there.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,087
    edited September 2015

    JEO said:

    So Ivan Lewis has been sacked by Corbyn as part of his bridge building. Who will get the shadow NI role now? I imagine Labour will become more overtly pro-Nationalist/Republican.

    I don't know much about Ivan Lewis. Could you tell me more about the implications of what sacking him means?

    A Blairite. Offered to stay on in shadow cabinet given current problems in NI. Corbyn said no.

    And Ivan Lewis is Jewish.

    The optics are horrible on so many levels.

    Yep. Hopefully that is a coincidence. That we are even contemplating it tells you something about Jezza's friends - real world and online.

    It's Tom Watson related, but you're right, if we even need to have this conversation.

    http://bit.ly/1vEMkgA
    Tom Watson manipulating people?

    Ce n'est pas possible, Monsieur !

    (Available at 14. but Shadders is out on a limb)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624

    alex. said:

    JEO said:

    So Ivan Lewis has been sacked by Corbyn as part of his bridge building. Who will get the shadow NI role now? I imagine Labour will become more overtly pro-Nationalist/Republican.

    I don't know much about Ivan Lewis. Could you tell me more about the implications of what sacking him means?

    A Blairite. Offered to stay on in shadow cabinet given current problems in NI. Corbyn said no.

    Looks like a pretty generous offer that has been chucked back in his face. To put it mildly, now is not a good time to have either someone new getting up to speed on the issues, or to start playing party politics with the role.
    So who has Corbyn got?
    Maybe Corbyn thinks that he knows more about the NI situation from his friends there in Sinn Fein? Even more worrying.

    On so many levels Corbyn is a real threat to the UK.
    The reason that he probably feels more comfortable with the Shiners is the whole intellectual-lefty thing the do. Probably made sure he never met the guys who actually "do business" as it were. Very feudal lot - the way it works is that the thugs at the bottom work (for terrible wages) in the businesses owned by the leaders. Most of the street level guys are on all kinds of benefits...

    The Loyalists by comparison let the tattooed thugs actually run things.
  • surbiton said:

    Y0kel said:

    SeanT said:

    Looks like a long night of phone calls for corbyn. Is there a risk he actually believes his own hype ? Havent yet been convinced that anything happened so far won't result in an absolute disaster for labour.

    He very clearly believes his own hype.
    And nothing wrong with that. Problem is the party itself has no killer instinct these days so they are stuck with him.

    Corbyn 59.5%
    Blairites 40.5%
    Wrong:

    Corbyn 59.5%
    Balancing Actors 36%
    Blairites 4.5%
    You get my drift :)
  • MrsBMrsB Posts: 574
    No point in trying to figure out who did what to whom and why in Northern Ireland or other parts of that island. It's been going on 800 years and counting (since 1169) with various degrees of violence and peace. Sometimes the rationale is political philosophy, sometimes it's about criminal gangs, sometimes it's personal power and status and sometimes it's sheer unforgiving bloodymindedness. Every participant group on every part of the political spectrum has done bad things at some point. Right now it looks as though the large stone has slipped a bit, but eventually someone will come along and starting pushing it up the hill towards less conflicted* times again. Let's stay away from getting embroiled, chaps.

    Corporeal's (welcome back by the way) ** are catching. This one is so I can say it was extraordinarily hard to find a word to describe the Irish/NI journey. More settled times invokes the settlement of Ireland, less troubled times invokes the Troubles etc etc. Finding the right word that doesn't inflame tensions in NI can be massively difficult.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited September 2015
    At this rate, the SNP will be able to occupy the Opposition front bench tomorrow and do so legitimately...
  • Kevin McGuigan murder: Sinn Féin's Bobby Storey says IRA is 'not coming back'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34238430

    WTF are you on Sunil. Give it a rest.
    This is an up to date story from earlier today!
  • Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176
    Been away for the weekend, so only now able to make my first comments on Corbyn.

    It's interesting to see the reaction amongst my leftie friends (all Corbyn supporters to a man) and on social media - there's a lot of love for Jeremy, and of course these are in the main largely uninformed and "non political" people who don't really understand politics and economics and probably think it's all about putting forward pie in the sky ideas, utopian ideals, bashing the rich fantasies, and ruinous economic policies.

    So as i've said all summer, I really do think the Left, the disaffected and the "can't be arsed with any of them" are going to coalesce around the "new politics" offered by Corbyn. Will that be more than offset by droves of "soft Labour" voters swarming across to the Tories (or UKIP, SNP or elsewhere)? - hm, not sure about that.

    Very interesting times, possibly the most interesting time in politics since the rise of Blair, and possibly well before that. I can't wait to watch it all blow up for Labour, and my popcorn is at the ready watching him cobble together a Shadow Cabinet and for PMQs this week, but at the same time - I think he'll do alright. Which of course is no bad thing for a Tory supporter if he ends up entrenched in post.

    But I do have a nagging doubt that he could, against all odds, actually re-energise voters, re-engage millions of "lost" voters (he arguably already is), and find it very easy to score hit after hit against Cameron - unfairly so, and there's going to be lots more Bullingdon-bashing from the Labour Opposition now, but I fear it resonating.

    There is a big challenge now for the Tories. I think Dave has to rein in the Flashman tendency, of course score the easy hits at PMQs, but he is offering Corbyn an open goal if he throws the kitchen sink at him.

    It needs to be a measured, forensic and focused attack.

    Are the Tories, and Dave/George, capable of that?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited September 2015
    EPG said:

    PB comments have suddenly discovered that all those sacked shadow cabinet members, who were threatening their wallets five months ago, were really quite nice all along.

    LOL. As far as PBTories are concerned , a sacked Labour person, is a good person.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    surbiton said:

    Floater said:

    Indigo said:

    Possibly you could stop your dancing now and enlighten us as to which loyalist paramilitary supporters met with a Tory politician, without a bunch of diversionary crap about the security services.

    The whole point of Collusion between elements of the State and the Loyalists was that it was all hush-hush, hoosh-hoosh.
    you don't think that perhaps now is about the time to call a halt to this silly trolling?
    Why should it be hush hushed ? We cannot just have IRA bashing only. The other side also killed and maimed. Just because elements of the British state supported them does not make it correct. It is equally wrong !
    Sigh - I know why you want to muddy the waters.

    For Sunil I suspect this is just a silly game.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624
    MrsB said:

    No point in trying to figure out who did what to whom and why in Northern Ireland or other parts of that island. It's been going on 800 years and counting (since 1169) with various degrees of violence and peace. Sometimes the rationale is political philosophy, sometimes it's about criminal gangs, sometimes it's personal power and status and sometimes it's sheer unforgiving bloodymindedness. Every participant group on every part of the political spectrum has done bad things at some point. Right now it looks as though the large stone has slipped a bit, but eventually someone will come along and starting pushing it up the hill towards less conflicted* times again. Let's stay away from getting embroiled, chaps.

    Corporeal's (welcome back by the way) ** are catching. This one is so I can say it was extraordinarily hard to find a word to describe the Irish/NI journey. More settled times invokes the settlement of Ireland, less troubled times invokes the Troubles etc etc. Finding the right word that doesn't inflame tensions in NI can be massively difficult.

    I was born there.

    It's about bribing a generation of politicians to put their semi-detached thugs back in their boxes. After a generation has gone by of people doing weird stuff like voting to change things rather than poping down to the local office of murdering-scum-for-u, then there will be some hope. Maybe.

  • Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176
    I also think one thing the Tories could and should do now is rise to the opportunity presented by Corbyn, and offer an olive branch to reasonable and broadly free market liberal Labour MPs on the Blairite wing and right of that, and of course the many thousands of Labour members and activists out there, and invite them across to join the Tories. That they are seen to be doing that (even if few Labour folk are ever going to do that) may resonate more positively with floating voters, and demonstrate how far Labour has now moved to the Hard Left, than silliness like we heard from Dave and M Fallon this weekend about "risks to security of the nation".
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,996
    surbiton said:

    EPG said:

    PB comments have suddenly discovered that all those sacked shadow cabinet members, who were threatening their wallets five months ago, were really quite nice all along.

    LOL. As far as PBTories are concerned , a sacked Labour person, is a good person.
    Don't forget that no-one ever questioned Michael Foot's or Tony Benn's patriotism... except, you know, when they were alive. So to PB comments a good Labour person is powerless or dead.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Junkers getting twitchy

    BRUSSELS (Reuters) - 1 hour ago.

    European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker voiced concern on Sunday about the future of Europe's open border system in a call with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, after a report that Berlin might reimpose frontier controls temporarily

    http://news.yahoo.com/eus-juncker-raises-alarm-future-open-borders-160717266.html
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973
    SeanT said:

    Looks like a long night of phone calls for corbyn. Is there a risk he actually believes his own hype ? Havent yet been convinced that anything happened so far won't result in an absolute disaster for labour.

    He very clearly believes his own hype.
    I'm still struggling to comprehend the situation, in all honesty. He was always going to attempt to inflict his own dogma on the party after 30 odd years as an MP.

    Oh, and poor Ivan Lewis is getting some terrible anti-Semitic abuse on Twitter. I'm not sure how long corbyn supporters can necessarily continue to right these off as smears.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    When will we see a post from those that were not so long ago praising Merkel and condemning Cameron acknowledging that they were wrong.

    Germany has just slammed their doors shut so they can sort out who they want to let in from those that they do not. That is an immigration policy that barely merits the name and coming on top of the "come one come all" announcement not that long ago is even more reprehensible as it leaves Germany's neighbours with massive problems.

    So come on, fellows. Those of you who were praising Merkel just the other day lets be hearing from you. Cameron (who I still detest) had it right all along.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    Tim_B said:

    A big problem in temporarily leaving Schengen is that so many border crossings are unmanned.

    What a clusterfook.

    What makes you assume it's temporary?

    That's what they've said. Maybe this is the end of it, though. That will cause significant problems at road crossings with lorries etc. It's a real mess.

    And all of it exacerbated by Merkel's ridiculous decision to "transform Germany" - without asking the voters! - by welcoming 1m immigrants a year, just like that.

    She's gone from heroine to object of derision in a week.

    Who knows if it will be temporary, but it's already done even more damage to the Cause of Europe. Is there anything worth saving of the EU if Schengen IS gone?

    A single market is a good thing in theory. And you can't have that without a lot of harmonisation. But free movement of peoples is going to get harder and harder to maintain.

    The working population of Europe is falling. The aged are getting more numerous ! Health costs soaring. Who will pay for all this ?
    So your answer is to import more people, then even more , then even more.

    Mhhh - someone hasn't thought this through
  • Floater said:

    surbiton said:

    Floater said:

    Indigo said:

    Possibly you could stop your dancing now and enlighten us as to which loyalist paramilitary supporters met with a Tory politician, without a bunch of diversionary crap about the security services.

    The whole point of Collusion between elements of the State and the Loyalists was that it was all hush-hush, hoosh-hoosh.
    you don't think that perhaps now is about the time to call a halt to this silly trolling?
    Why should it be hush hushed ? We cannot just have IRA bashing only. The other side also killed and maimed. Just because elements of the British state supported them does not make it correct. It is equally wrong !
    Sigh - I know why you want to muddy the waters.

    For Sunil I suspect this is just a silly game.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34238430
  • MrsBMrsB Posts: 574
    re "turnip" you do all know that in Scotland a turnip is what in England is a swede?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    'kin L, was just looking at premiership table on Sky and I was looking for Chelsea, and looking and looking........

    Oh dear.
  • So not only are 'Engineers for Corbyn' going to be represented in the shad cab, it is 'Geordie Engineers for Corbyn'!
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Sean_F said:

    JEO said:

    So Ivan Lewis has been sacked by Corbyn as part of his bridge building. Who will get the shadow NI role now? I imagine Labour will become more overtly pro-Nationalist/Republican.

    I don't know much about Ivan Lewis. Could you tell me more about the implications of what sacking him means?

    A Blairite. Offered to stay on in shadow cabinet given current problems in NI. Corbyn said no.

    And Ivan Lewis is Jewish.

    The optics are horrible on so many levels.
    Didn't Corbyn once call for an enquiry into Jewish influence over the Conservative Party?
    Many people have, including Jews.

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/peter-oborne-james-jones/pro-israel-lobby-in-britain-full-text
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-truth-about-the-uks-proisrael-lobbies-9702262.html
    http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/article_comments/the_uks_pro_israel_lobby_in_context
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    MrsB said:

    re "turnip" you do all know that in Scotland a turnip is what in England is a swede?

    All members of ABBA were Turnips?
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    EPG said:

    surbiton said:

    EPG said:

    PB comments have suddenly discovered that all those sacked shadow cabinet members, who were threatening their wallets five months ago, were really quite nice all along.

    LOL. As far as PBTories are concerned , a sacked Labour person, is a good person.
    Don't forget that no-one ever questioned Michael Foot's or Tony Benn's patriotism... except, you know, when they were alive. So to PB comments a good Labour person is powerless or dead.
    Does this post make sense? If so you'll have to explain it to me.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    edited September 2015
    Right wing media turning on Jezza?

    Michael Crick ✔ @MichaelLCrick
    In sacking Ivan Lewis, Corbyn will, in one move, have aroused concerns among two separate groups - unionists, and the Jewish community


    Ivan Lewis ✔ @IvanLewis_MP
    Now I hope Jeremy and his team understand why I asked for meeting to discuss concerns about anti semitism on the left. I'm pleased he agreed
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,662
    SeanT said:

    I also think one thing the Tories could and should do now is rise to the opportunity presented by Corbyn, and offer an olive branch to reasonable and broadly free market liberal Labour MPs on the Blairite wing and right of that, and of course the many thousands of Labour members and activists out there, and invite them across to join the Tories. That they are seen to be doing that (even if few Labour folk are ever going to do that) may resonate more positively with floating voters, and demonstrate how far Labour has now moved to the Hard Left, than silliness like we heard from Dave and M Fallon this weekend about "risks to security of the nation".

    No, they should do BOTH. Because Corbyn really IS a risk to the security of the nation, in so many ways. They have to frame him as this, because it is the case. Not warning people would be dereliction of political duty (as well as a missed opportunity to cripple Labour).

    That said they must also be measured and generous towards sensible lefties. Yes. Invite them over. Make mischief, in a statesmanlike way.
    Took the words out of my mouth - the two things are not mutually exclusive. There is a threat and Labour MPs can see it (especially those who have direct experience of actually trying to govern).
  • Corbyn and Spurs winning in the same weekend?

    Unlikely but happy.

    No discussions about football or cricket.

    England gave up today like the French at The Maginot Line
    Coming home late via Euston last night post Proms tut Park, it was truly unastonishing how many Man U shirts were arriving back in London on the trains. Not so many scousers.

    Re cricket - Hales sent Roy to the lions to save his place and that was that.
    I could have gone to the match alas decided to put PB first on such a momentous day.
    just as well you missed both the footie and the cricket in your patch this weekend
    I went to the cricket.

    Sooner spend eternity stuck in a lift with Owen Jones, Katie Price and a guy with diarrhoea.
    ouch - what a bday weekend that is.... don't look at the fantasy table then when it's updated as you may start having to worry about that too...
    I'm having to go to Scotland this week as well.
    Distillery visit?
  • MrsBMrsB Posts: 574

    MrsB said:

    re "turnip" you do all know that in Scotland a turnip is what in England is a swede?

    All members of ABBA were Turnips?
    I couldn't possibly comment.
  • Corbyn and Spurs winning in the same weekend?

    Unlikely but happy.

    No discussions about football or cricket.

    England gave up today like the French at The Maginot Line
    Coming home late via Euston last night post Proms tut Park, it was truly unastonishing how many Man U shirts were arriving back in London on the trains. Not so many scousers.

    Re cricket - Hales sent Roy to the lions to save his place and that was that.
    I could have gone to the match alas decided to put PB first on such a momentous day.
    just as well you missed both the footie and the cricket in your patch this weekend
    I went to the cricket.

    Sooner spend eternity stuck in a lift with Owen Jones, Katie Price and a guy with diarrhoea.
    ouch - what a bday weekend that is.... don't look at the fantasy table then when it's updated as you may start having to worry about that too...
    I'm having to go to Scotland this week as well.
    Distillery visit?
    Meeting Mr Balloch again
  • MrsB said:

    No point in trying to figure out who did what to whom and why in Northern Ireland or other parts of that island. It's been going on 800 years and counting (since 1169) with various degrees of violence and peace. Sometimes the rationale is political philosophy, sometimes it's about criminal gangs, sometimes it's personal power and status and sometimes it's sheer unforgiving bloodymindedness. Every participant group on every part of the political spectrum has done bad things at some point. Right now it looks as though the large stone has slipped a bit, but eventually someone will come along and starting pushing it up the hill towards less conflicted* times again. Let's stay away from getting embroiled, chaps.

    Corporeal's (welcome back by the way) ** are catching. This one is so I can say it was extraordinarily hard to find a word to describe the Irish/NI journey. More settled times invokes the settlement of Ireland, less troubled times invokes the Troubles etc etc. Finding the right word that doesn't inflame tensions in NI can be massively difficult.

    I was born there.

    It's about bribing a generation of politicians to put their semi-detached thugs back in their boxes. After a generation has gone by of people doing weird stuff like voting to change things rather than poping down to the local office of murdering-scum-for-u, then there will be some hope. Maybe.

    Poping! Lolz.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    Ivan Lewis ‏@IvanLewis_MP 5m5 minutes ago
    Now I hope Jeremy and his team understand why I asked for meeting to discuss concerns about anti semitism on the left. I'm pleased he agreed
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    German Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere said: 'At this moment Germany is temporarily introducing border controls again along [the EU's] internal borders. The focus will be on the border to Austria at first.

    'The aim of these measures is to limit the current inflows to Germany and to return to orderly procedures when people enter the country.

    Mr de Maiziere added: 'This step has become necessary. The great readiness to help that Germany has shown in recent weeks... must not be overstretched.'

    The Interior Minister did not specify how long the border controls would remain in place or give details of exactly how incoming migrants would be handled. He said there could be disruption to rail travel. Most migrants have been arriving by train.

    Germany's national railway, Deutsche Bahn, said it had halted service between Austria and Germany for 12 hours at authorities' orders.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3232744/We-t-German-authorities-call-urgent-action-migrant-crisis-locals-say-Munich-brink-humanitarian-disaster.html#ixzz3le508Jhg
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    In case it hasn't been posted yet, here's a link to Dan Hannan's obit for the Labour Party in today's Washington Examiner:

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/u.k.s-left-wing-takes-hard-anti-u.s.-turn/article/2571919
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    I also think one thing the Tories could and should do now is rise to the opportunity presented by Corbyn, and offer an olive branch to reasonable and broadly free market liberal Labour MPs on the Blairite wing and right of that, and of course the many thousands of Labour members and activists out there, and invite them across to join the Tories. That they are seen to be doing that (even if few Labour folk are ever going to do that) may resonate more positively with floating voters, and demonstrate how far Labour has now moved to the Hard Left, than silliness like we heard from Dave and M Fallon this weekend about "risks to security of the nation".

    But he *is* a risk to national security.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited September 2015

    Kevin McGuigan murder: Sinn Féin's Bobby Storey says IRA is 'not coming back'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34238430

    WTF are you on Sunil. Give it a rest.
    This is an up to date story from earlier today!
    it might well be , but you are just trying to cause arguments,... leave it for another day, just as today is not the day for telling home truths to kippers !!!
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Right wing media turning on Jezza?

    Michael Crick ✔ @MichaelLCrick
    In sacking Ivan Lewis, Corbyn will, in one move, have aroused concerns among two separate groups - unionists, and the Jewish community


    Ivan Lewis ✔ @IvanLewis_MP
    Now I hope Jeremy and his team understand why I asked for meeting to discuss concerns about anti semitism on the left. I'm pleased he agreed

    So, a Jewish MP cannot be sacked but a Jewish MP [ Rachel Reeves ] can decide not to join.

    What on earth has the post of Shadow Sec. of NI has to do with someone being Jewish ?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited September 2015
    surbiton said:

    Right wing media turning on Jezza?

    Michael Crick ✔ @MichaelLCrick
    In sacking Ivan Lewis, Corbyn will, in one move, have aroused concerns among two separate groups - unionists, and the Jewish community


    Ivan Lewis ✔ @IvanLewis_MP
    Now I hope Jeremy and his team understand why I asked for meeting to discuss concerns about anti semitism on the left. I'm pleased he agreed

    So, a Jewish MP cannot be sacked but a Jewish MP [ Rachel Reeves ] can decide not to join.

    What on earth has the post of Shadow Sec. of NI has to do with someone being Jewish ?
    The fact that you try to suggest that it doesn't suggests that it has everything to do with it. Watson is a man of the dark arts, and a lying shit of the worst kind... He is to be treated with circumspection at all times.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    MTimT said:

    In case it hasn't been posted yet, here's a link to Dan Hannan's obit for the Labour Party in today's Washington Examiner:

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/u.k.s-left-wing-takes-hard-anti-u.s.-turn/article/2571919

    Hannan explains it all in one brilliant quote 'The People's Party has given up on the People'
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    JEO said:

    Imams, priests, rabbis and other religious figures will have to enrol in a “national register of faith leaders” and be subject to government-specified training and security checks in the Home Office’s latest action on extremism.

    The highly controversial proposal appears in a leaked draft of the Government’s new counter-extremism strategy, seen by The Telegraph, which goes substantially further than previous versions of the document.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/11860993/Imams-will-have-to-register-and-face-security-vetting-under-Home-Office-plans.html
    I saw that report. I know I don't get on with our new "priest in charge" (the CofE no longer does vicars and rectors apparently) but to make the silly bat go on some government training scheme seems very unfair. Then there are those like SquareRoot's local chap, been vicar of the same parish for more than thirty years and suddenly he has to be trained and approved by the government and put on a register. Why?

    In Soviet Russia and in China priests were/are only allowed to practice their vocation if licensed by the government. What is the UK coming to when we feel we have to follow their example? If a religious figure is breaking the law then prosecute them (rather than aid and abet as the Met Police did with the fellow with the hooks) there are plenty of offences to choose from.
    Because plenty of Muslim clerics are teaching intolerance in difficult to prove ways.
    If they're inciting crime, they should be prosecuted. Otherwise, this is a dreadful infringement of religious freedom.
    Agree 100%.

    The idea of a requirement to "register" to be a cleric is extraordinary governmental over-reach.

    Incitement to commit a crime, on the other hand, is a serious offence. And we should not let religious scruples (or concern about community) get in the way of prosecuting it to the fullest extent of the law.

    Apparently the new trade union bill will require trade unions to inform police two weeks in advance if they wish to undertake a campaign on social media.

    I had to check the article wasn't a joke.
  • oh look my captain just got a 3 point bonus too

    #jezzascrapfantasyturnaround
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,662

    German Interior Minister Thomas de Maiziere said: 'At this moment Germany is temporarily introducing border controls again along [the EU's] internal borders. The focus will be on the border to Austria at first.

    'The aim of these measures is to limit the current inflows to Germany and to return to orderly procedures when people enter the country.

    Mr de Maiziere added: 'This step has become necessary. The great readiness to help that Germany has shown in recent weeks... must not be overstretched.'

    The Interior Minister did not specify how long the border controls would remain in place or give details of exactly how incoming migrants would be handled. He said there could be disruption to rail travel. Most migrants have been arriving by train.

    Germany's national railway, Deutsche Bahn, said it had halted service between Austria and Germany for 12 hours at authorities' orders.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3232744/We-t-German-authorities-call-urgent-action-migrant-crisis-locals-say-Munich-brink-humanitarian-disaster.html#ixzz3le508Jhg
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    It's shocking hypocrisy after criticising the Hungarians who were saying the exact same thing (and trying to discharge their duties under the Dublin agreement). Will the refugees take to foot as they did in Hungary, I wonder?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    RodCrosby said:

    Sean_F said:

    JEO said:

    So Ivan Lewis has been sacked by Corbyn as part of his bridge building. Who will get the shadow NI role now? I imagine Labour will become more overtly pro-Nationalist/Republican.

    I don't know much about Ivan Lewis. Could you tell me more about the implications of what sacking him means?

    A Blairite. Offered to stay on in shadow cabinet given current problems in NI. Corbyn said no.

    And Ivan Lewis is Jewish.

    The optics are horrible on so many levels.
    Didn't Corbyn once call for an enquiry into Jewish influence over the Conservative Party?
    Many people have, including Jews.

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/peter-oborne-james-jones/pro-israel-lobby-in-britain-full-text
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-truth-about-the-uks-proisrael-lobbies-9702262.html
    http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/article_comments/the_uks_pro_israel_lobby_in_context
    But only Jeremy Corbyn counts.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,087

    When will we see a post from those that were not so long ago praising Merkel and condemning Cameron acknowledging that they were wrong.

    Germany has just slammed their doors shut so they can sort out who they want to let in from those that they do not. That is an immigration policy that barely merits the name and coming on top of the "come one come all" announcement not that long ago is even more reprehensible as it leaves Germany's neighbours with massive problems.

    So come on, fellows. Those of you who were praising Merkel just the other day lets be hearing from you. Cameron (who I still detest) had it right all along.

    I still say Merkel has lost her marbles.

    She could have helped all the refugees in Turkey, including the weaker ones, for 10% of the amount it is costing her to help the stronger ones in Germany.

    Presumably some of the weaker ones died on the way.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
  • So not only are 'Engineers for Corbyn' going to be represented in the shad cab, it is 'Geordie Engineers for Corbyn'!

    She was only a software and hardware engineer. They're never any good. Ahem. :)

    And according to Wiki she also likes long walks. Now, this I have problems with. There are walks and then there are long walks. No-one should claim they like long walks unless they're away for at least two weeks each trip...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Sanders surges into Iowa and NH leads, Clinton leads SC

    Iowa

    Sanders 43%
    Clinton 33%
    Biden 10%

    NH

    Sanders 52%
    Clinton 30%
    Biden 9%

    SC

    Clinton 46%
    Sanders 23%
    Biden 22%
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/battleground-tracker-sanders-surges-in-ia-nh-clinton-up-in-sc/
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited September 2015
    TudorRose said:

    SeanT said:

    I also think one thing the Tories could and should do now is rise to the opportunity presented by Corbyn, and offer an olive branch to reasonable and broadly free market liberal Labour MPs on the Blairite wing and right of that, and of course the many thousands of Labour members and activists out there, and invite them across to join the Tories. That they are seen to be doing that (even if few Labour folk are ever going to do that) may resonate more positively with floating voters, and demonstrate how far Labour has now moved to the Hard Left, than silliness like we heard from Dave and M Fallon this weekend about "risks to security of the nation".

    No, they should do BOTH. Because Corbyn really IS a risk to the security of the nation, in so many ways. They have to frame him as this, because it is the case. Not warning people would be dereliction of political duty (as well as a missed opportunity to cripple Labour).

    That said they must also be measured and generous towards sensible lefties. Yes. Invite them over. Make mischief, in a statesmanlike way.
    Took the words out of my mouth - the two things are not mutually exclusive. There is a threat and Labour MPs can see it (especially those who have direct experience of actually trying to govern).
    The more Cameron moves to the centre and beyond to take a tactical advantage of the despondency of Labour's right, the more he risks a True Deep Blue Tory breakaway on the right.

    Rather than reach out to get party switchers, I think a devious tactic would be for Cameron to give preferential consultation time to a grouping of Blairites and so accord them a sort of 'unofficial loyal opposition' status.

    As per Dan Hannan, as a loyal Tory, I do not want to see the demise of Labour without something on the Centre Left to replace it. My first preference would be a breakaway New Labour. My second would be a merger of the LD's with what would have been the elements of such a breakaway party, and my third would be the LDs expanding to fill the same political space.

    Part of my concern is that the Tories would be in danger of splintering without a threat on the left flank.
  • Can anyone tell me what Mandela actually did for black south Africans after his release..apart from enriching himself and his cronies... the townships are still there.. still without running water.. except in the open sewers.. no power except the power of the gang masters.. the ordinary black chap will barely have noticed his presence.. they still have shit lives..
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    Right wing media turning on Jezza?

    Michael Crick ✔ @MichaelLCrick
    In sacking Ivan Lewis, Corbyn will, in one move, have aroused concerns among two separate groups - unionists, and the Jewish community


    Ivan Lewis ✔ @IvanLewis_MP
    Now I hope Jeremy and his team understand why I asked for meeting to discuss concerns about anti semitism on the left. I'm pleased he agreed

    So, a Jewish MP cannot be sacked but a Jewish MP [ Rachel Reeves ] can decide not to join.

    What on earth has the post of Shadow Sec. of NI has to do with someone being Jewish ?
    The fact that you try to suggest that it doesn't suggests that it has everything to do with it. Watson is a man of the dark arts, and a lying shit of the worst kind... He is to be treated with circumspection at all times.
    Watson is getting his Shadow Cabinet revenge. It has nothing to do with I van Lewis whom I had not even heard about until today.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    HYUFD said:

    Sanders surges into Iowa and NH leads, Clinton leads SC

    Iowa

    Sanders 43%
    Clinton 33%
    Biden 10%

    NH

    Sanders 52%
    Clinton 30%
    Biden 9%

    SC

    Clinton 46%
    Sanders 23%
    Biden 22%
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/battleground-tracker-sanders-surges-in-ia-nh-clinton-up-in-sc/

    I.e. Clinton leads in South Carolina until the voters start focusing on the issue. Expect SC VIs to follow the same pattern over time as NH and IA
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723

    think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Is that why Cameron was doing Selfies at his funeral.

    The picture I posted contrasts what the two got up to in the 80;s Corbyn was campaigning against injustice, Cameron was in a group that loved trashing restaurants.
  • Cameron was fourteen to twenty-four during the 1980s.
    Corbyn was thirty-one to forty-one.

    I certainly did some silly things in my teens and early twenties. The difference between Cameron and Corbyn is that Cameron grew out of it, whilst Corbyn continues doing silly things to this day.

    He hasn't grown up intellectually, yet Labour have elected him as their leader.

    Oh, and for the n'th time today: attacks on Cameron about 'Bullingdon' did not work in 2010 or 2015. They're not going to work in 2020, unless Labour try to link it to another Red Rag-style smear.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731

    Can anyone tell me what Mandela actually did for black south Africans after his release..apart from enriching himself and his cronies... the townships are still there.. still without running water.. except in the open sewers.. no power except the power of the gang masters.. the ordinary black chap will barely have noticed his presence.. they still have shit lives..

    Didn't he make sure that white South Africans that weren't rich got to have equally shit lives?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited September 2015

    think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Why doesn't Cameron repeat those lines today, if he believes them still ?
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,662
    MTimT said:

    TudorRose said:

    SeanT said:

    I also think one thing the Tories could and should do now is rise to the opportunity presented by Corbyn, and offer an olive branch to reasonable and broadly free market liberal Labour MPs on the Blairite wing and right of that, and of course the many thousands of Labour members and activists out there, and invite them across to join the Tories. That they are seen to be doing that (even if few Labour folk are ever going to do that) may resonate more positively with floating voters, and demonstrate how far Labour has now moved to the Hard Left, than silliness like we heard from Dave and M Fallon this weekend about "risks to security of the nation".

    No, they should do BOTH. Because Corbyn really IS a risk to the security of the nation, in so many ways. They have to frame him as this, because it is the case. Not warning people would be dereliction of political duty (as well as a missed opportunity to cripple Labour).

    That said they must also be measured and generous towards sensible lefties. Yes. Invite them over. Make mischief, in a statesmanlike way.
    Took the words out of my mouth - the two things are not mutually exclusive. There is a threat and Labour MPs can see it (especially those who have direct experience of actually trying to govern).
    The more Cameron moves to the centre and beyond to take a tactical advantage of the despondency of Labour's right, the more he risks a True Deep Blue Tory breakaway on the right.

    Rather than reach out to get party switchers, I think a devious tactic would be for Cameron to give preferential consultation time to a grouping of Blairites and so accord them a sort of 'unofficial loyal opposition' status.

    As per Dan Hannan, as a loyal Tory, I do not want to see the demise of Labour without something on the Centre Left to replace it. My first preference would be a breakaway New Labour. My second would be a merger of the LD's with what would have been the elements of such a breakaway party, and my third would be the LDs expanding to fill the same political space.

    Part of my concern is that the Tories would be in danger of splintering without a threat on the left flank.
    Fair point, although I think that the loss of a couple of MPs on the far right might ensure we avoid a Corbyn moment in the Tory party.
  • surbiton said:

    think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Why doesn't Cameron repeat those lines today, if he believes them still ?
    I'm not sure Labourites should be calling for leaders of other parties to repeat lines they've said, because then people will just ask Corbyn to repeat lines he's said.

    And Corbyn's said a lot more sh*t than Cameron ever has, and continues to this day.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Shadow Chief Sec to the Treasury has resigned (a woman) - think we missed that one?
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I've been trying to think of a fantasy Tory Shad Cab to match the likely Corbynista candidates.

    I'm struggling to come up with ones of similar erm quality. Which is a relief but shows how far off the reservation the Corbynites are.
    TudorRose said:

    MTimT said:

    TudorRose said:

    SeanT said:

    I also think one thing the Tories could and should do now is rise to the opportunity presented by Corbyn, and offer an olive branch to reasonable and broadly free market liberal Labour MPs on the Blairite wing and right of that, and of course the many thousands of Labour members and activists out there, and invite them across to join the Tories. That they are seen to be doing that (even if few Labour folk are ever going to do that) may resonate more positively with floating voters, and demonstrate how far Labour has now moved to the Hard Left, than silliness like we heard from Dave and M Fallon this weekend about "risks to security of the nation".

    No, they should do BOTH. Because Corbyn really IS a risk to the security of the nation, in so many ways. They have to frame him as this, because it is the case. Not warning people would be dereliction of political duty (as well as a missed opportunity to cripple Labour).

    That said they must also be measured and generous towards sensible lefties. Yes. Invite them over. Make mischief, in a statesmanlike way.
    Took the words out of my mouth - the two things are not mutually exclusive. There is a threat and Labour MPs can see it (especially those who have direct experience of actually trying to govern).
    The more Cameron moves to the centre and beyond to take a tactical advantage of the despondency of Labour's right, the more he risks a True Deep Blue Tory breakaway on the right.

    Rather than reach out to get party switchers, I think a devious tactic would be for Cameron to give preferential consultation time to a grouping of Blairites and so accord them a sort of 'unofficial loyal opposition' status.

    As per Dan Hannan, as a loyal Tory, I do not want to see the demise of Labour without something on the Centre Left to replace it. My first preference would be a breakaway New Labour. My second would be a merger of the LD's with what would have been the elements of such a breakaway party, and my third would be the LDs expanding to fill the same political space.

    Part of my concern is that the Tories would be in danger of splintering without a threat on the left flank.
    Fair point, although I think that the loss of a couple of MPs on the far right might ensure we avoid a Corbyn moment in the Tory party.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,400

    think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Is that why Cameron was doing Selfies at his funeral.

    The picture I posted contrasts what the two got up to in the 80;s Corbyn was campaigning against injustice, Cameron was in a group that loved trashing restaurants.
    Cameron was a lot younger than Corbyn, it's hardly a surprise they were not at the level of seriousness in the 80s. In any case, Cameron would not claim to be the same man as he was in his early 20s trashing restaurants, so his youthful misdeeds are hardly relevant to his record as a politician. Corbyn on the other hand makes a virtue of consistently doing things for 30 years, so his past words and deeds that far back are relevant.

    Im prepared to give COrbyn a chance and see what kind of leader he will be, not all his ideas are bad, but trying to drag up Bullingdon stuff again is seriously weak, particular as I say given they are not the same age so a fairer comparison would be Cameron in the 80s against Corbyn 15 years earlier. Im sure he was doing about the same thing.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited September 2015
    Is it just an outside possibility that there is a coup going on in the PLP? ;) If he can't put together a Shadow Cabinet then he really can't continue as leader in Parliament. He'll just have to be leader in the country - like Nicola Sturgeon, Farage and the Green person.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited September 2015
    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sanders surges into Iowa and NH leads, Clinton leads SC

    Iowa

    Sanders 43%
    Clinton 33%
    Biden 10%

    NH

    Sanders 52%
    Clinton 30%
    Biden 9%

    SC

    Clinton 46%
    Sanders 23%
    Biden 22%
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/battleground-tracker-sanders-surges-in-ia-nh-clinton-up-in-sc/

    I.e. Clinton leads in South Carolina until the voters start focusing on the issue. Expect SC VIs to follow the same pattern over time as NH and IA
    South Carolina is much more conservative, even South Carolina Democrats, I cannot see Sanders doing well there, if Clinton really suffers further damage SC will be where Biden really takes off if he runs, he is already just 1% behind Sanders in the state
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    alex. said:

    Y0kel said:

    It doesn't matter who Labour put in as Shadow NI Secretary.

    Case Study: Kevin McNamara.

    It does matter. Northern Ireland is in a dangerous position, that could be made worse if the UK parties can't put on a united front.
    Is it? Many people in NI see it is as a result of a dysfunctional system of government where everyone wins a prize and one that mysteriously left paramilitaries intact as long as they didn't make too many waves.

    Some history. One of the major problems has been welfare reform. A deal was done by Martin McGuinness & Peter Robinson on this, one that was considered not too bad for Sinn Fein (and it wouldn't worry the Unionists either as everyone here seems to think its all terrible having to cut welfare even if it is necessary).

    Marty then had the rug pulled under him on the deal by Gerry Adams and had to do a public volte face as protest politics took over from making hard decisions. That deadlock is killing NI's budget and its devolved Executives ability to function. A second deal was well on its way and that September was set down by DUP sources as a likely time for 'progress' to be made.

    Next thing you know the haven't gone aways of the Provisional IRA showed they hadn't gone away and topped Kevin McGuigan. Unionists are hacked off (even though they all knew the Provo's haven't gone anywhere it came as a shock, if not a surprise). Intra-Unionist politics is also in play with the UUP outflanking the DUP over this matter. Robinson has played procedural tactics that enable the executive to marginally function without collapse whilst trying to bring the issue of the paramilitaries continued existence on the table.

    Downing Street though have said no to Robinson's requests for some procedural suspensions and basically told local parties to sort it themselves. The Irish government also pressed the SDLP on the nationalist side to agree to a suspension of Assembly business to give breathing space to negotiations, the SDLP said no. Might be the right call by London at this point. A damaging elements of the Blair government's time was that they came running along every time local politicians couldn't be arsed making their own way. That policy began to change under Brown and continued to change under Cameron.

    Robinson needed to make his points but did so on his own. His aims are fairly narrow: 1. Make his statement over the IRA (Unionists as much as many are rolling their eyes over current circumstances are strongly in support of something being done). 2. Get a kind of oversight on the paramilitaries of all sides in place and 3. Get the welfare reform deal sorted.

    The cynical might suggest that both the DUP & Sinn Fein might like London to impose welfare reform then local politicians might start working again later with a fait accompli.

    More to follow regarding the IRA issue.






  • Mandela got out of jail and got rich..very rich..the township dwellers just kept on getting poorer..
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    Laura KuenssbergVerified account
    @bbclaurak
    @ChukaUmunna leaves shadow cabinet by 'mutual agreement'

    And another one goes.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Is that why Cameron was doing Selfies at his funeral.

    The picture I posted contrasts what the two got up to in the 80;s Corbyn was campaigning against injustice, Cameron was in a group that loved trashing restaurants.
    Point of accuracy -- wasn’t it Mrs Stephen Kinnock who was doing selfies ?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723

    Cameron was fourteen to twenty-four during the 1980s.
    Corbyn was thirty-one to forty-one.

    I certainly did some silly things in my teens and early twenties. The difference between Cameron and Corbyn is that Cameron grew out of it, whilst Corbyn continues doing silly things to this day.

    He hasn't grown up intellectually, yet Labour have elected him as their leader.

    Oh, and for the n'th time today: attacks on Cameron about 'Bullingdon' did not work in 2010 or 2015. They're not going to work in 2020, unless Labour try to link it to another Red Rag-style smear.
    You think the fact of Corbyn protesting apartheid is being silly?

    20 years later Cameron supported war in Iraq Jezza didnt.

    Silly old Jezza grow up
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Shabana Mahmood?
    alex. said:

    Shadow Chief Sec to the Treasury has resigned (a woman) - think we missed that one?

  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    Shabana Mahmood?

    alex. said:

    Shadow Chief Sec to the Treasury has resigned (a woman) - think we missed that one?

    Yes
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