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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,625

    MrsB said:

    No point in trying to figure out who did what to whom and why in Northern Ireland or other parts of that island. It's been going on 800 years and counting (since 1169) with various degrees of violence and peace. Sometimes the rationale is political philosophy, sometimes it's about criminal gangs, sometimes it's personal power and status and sometimes it's sheer unforgiving bloodymindedness. Every participant group on every part of the political spectrum has done bad things at some point. Right now it looks as though the large stone has slipped a bit, but eventually someone will come along and starting pushing it up the hill towards less conflicted* times again. Let's stay away from getting embroiled, chaps.

    Corporeal's (welcome back by the way) ** are catching. This one is so I can say it was extraordinarily hard to find a word to describe the Irish/NI journey. More settled times invokes the settlement of Ireland, less troubled times invokes the Troubles etc etc. Finding the right word that doesn't inflame tensions in NI can be massively difficult.

    I was born there.

    It's about bribing a generation of politicians to put their semi-detached thugs back in their boxes. After a generation has gone by of people doing weird stuff like voting to change things rather than poping down to the local office of murdering-scum-for-u, then there will be some hope. Maybe.

    Poping! Lolz.
    You should see it - seriously. A converted shop front in a down-at-heel rows of shops, usually. Just pop in with your complaint about x. Bit like a surgery for your local council leader, really. The head guy is usually a local politician these days. But what happens to the x you complain about.....

    Make very sure you don't get too close though. Remember the story of the pigeon who wanted to see a hawk....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    alex. said:

    Is it just an outside possibility that there is a coup going on in the PLP? ;) If he can't put together a Shadow Cabinet then he really can't continue as leader in Parliament. He'll just have to be leader in the country - like Nicola Sturgeon, Farage and the Green person.

    He will form a Shadow Cabinet, even if made up of Skinner, Abbott, McDonnell and every backbench rebel Labour has ever had. Meanwhile almost every loyalist Labour frontbencher will move to the backbenches to become a Labour rebel
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Is that why Cameron was doing Selfies at his funeral.

    The picture I posted contrasts what the two got up to in the 80;s Corbyn was campaigning against injustice, Cameron was in a group that loved trashing restaurants.
    Selfies at Mandela's funeral. That I'd like to see. Unless of course you're talking bollocks, and it was someone else asking him to be in their selfie. I'm sure you'll clear it up for me.
  • think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Is that why Cameron was doing Selfies at his funeral.

    The picture I posted contrasts what the two got up to in the 80;s Corbyn was campaigning against injustice, Cameron was in a group that loved trashing restaurants.
    Point of accuracy -- wasn’t it Mrs Stephen Kinnock who was doing selfies ?
    Yes wife of Labour MP asked Cameron for a pic with Obama and he politely agreed
    . BJowls sees this as a terrible act.....
  • think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Is that why Cameron was doing Selfies at his funeral.

    The picture I posted contrasts what the two got up to in the 80;s Corbyn was campaigning against injustice, Cameron was in a group that loved trashing restaurants.
    Aren't you confusing him with Neil Kinnock's daughter in law? Oh - and Barack Obama?
    To be fair I am confusing you with someone with a brain.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Y0kel said:

    alex. said:



    It does matter. Northern Ireland is in a dangerous position, that could be made worse if the UK parties can't put on a united front.

    Is it? Many people in NI see it is as a result of a dysfunctional system of government where everyone wins a prize and one that mysteriously left paramilitaries intact as long as they didn't make too many waves.

    Some history. One of the major problems has been welfare reform. A deal was done by Martin McGuinness & Peter Robinson on this, one that was considered not too bad for Sinn Fein (and it wouldn't worry the Unionists either as everyone here seems to think its all terrible having to cut welfare even if it is necessary).

    Marty then had the rug pulled under him on the deal by Gerry Adams and had to do a public volte face as protest politics took over from making hard decisions. That deadlock is killing NI's budget and its devolved Executives ability to function. A second deal was well on its way and that September was set down by DUP sources as a likely time for 'progress' to be made.

    Next thing you know the haven't gone aways of the Provisional IRA showed they hadn't gone away and topped Kevin McGuigan. Unionists are hacked off (even though they all knew the Provo's haven't gone anywhere it came as a shock, if not a surprise). Intra-Unionist politics is also in play with the UUP outflanking the DUP over this matter. Robinson has played procedural tactics that enable the executive to marginally function without collapse whilst trying to bring the issue of the paramilitaries continued existence on the table.

    Downing Street though have said no to Robinson's requests for some procedural suspensions and basically told local parties to sort it themselves. The Irish government also pressed the SDLP on the nationalist side to agree to a suspension of Assembly business to give breathing space to negotiations, the SDLP said no. Might be the right call by London at this point. A damaging elements of the Blair government's time was that they came running along every time local politicians couldn't be arsed making their own way. That policy began to change under Brown and continued to change under Cameron.

    [snip]

    I (genuinely) defer to your knowledge on the issue. But doesn't your post to some extent reinforce mine - the UK Govt are trying to avoid getting involved and leaving it to the NI parties to sort it out for themselves. Do the dynamics not change somewhat if the Opposition start agitating in Parliament and undermining this policy (especially if it's on the instigation of Sinn Fein).
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Conor Pope @Conorpope
    Seems like Corbyn's reluctance to promise to campaign for an EU ref 'In' vote led to Chuka leaving Shad Cab labourlist.org/2015/09/livebl…
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922
    edited September 2015

    Kevin McGuigan murder: Sinn Féin's Bobby Storey says IRA is 'not coming back'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34238430

    WTF are you on Sunil. Give it a rest.
    This is an up to date story from earlier today!
    it might well be , but you are just trying to cause arguments,... leave it for another day, just as today is not the day for telling home truths to kippers !!!
    Yeah whatever!
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    I'm amazed Corbyn is reportedly considering Angela Eagle for Shadow Chancellor.

    I know most people don't have a clue apart from the leaders and one or two other people but Shadow Chancellor is a very prominent position and it needs someone who will come across to the public as credible - Hilary Benn would probably be the best bet, if not him then maybe Burnham.

    But the public will not be able to imagine Eagle as Chancellor - which will just add to the questions they will have about Corbyn.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/labour-staff-fear-corbyn-is-planning-to-centralise-power-in?utm_term=.xd6DZJV1Go
    Jeremy Corbyn could cement his power over Labour by depriving shadow cabinet members of the right to have their own teams of advisers, according to three current Labour employees who fear the party will see a large-scale departure of experienced staff if the left-wing MP is elected party leader on Saturday.

    One suggestion under discussion, according to current Labour staff, would see Corbyn pool shadow cabinet advisers into a central secretariat and then allocate them to shadow ministers only when required for policy and media work.

    This would give Corbyn’s team much more central control over staffing and reduce the ability of individual shadow ministers to build up rival power bases.

    “It seems like it’d be done on the basis of ideology,” said one current Labour shadow cabinet adviser who suggested the plan could be used as an excuse to give jobs to Corbyn’s left-wing supporters. “Are there enough people with that ideology who have the knowledge of parliament, knowledge of the media? You could see a load of CND campaign officers with jobs.”
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    alex. said:

    Is it just an outside possibility that there is a coup going on in the PLP? ;) If he can't put together a Shadow Cabinet then he really can't continue as leader in Parliament. He'll just have to be leader in the country - like Nicola Sturgeon, Farage and the Green person.

    One would have thought that by now he would be in a position to announce the shadow cabinet. Surely he must have given some thought to the task over the past few weeks. Perhaps this is another cunning ploy: like anyone might be put into bat for PMQs so anyone might be given the task of a shadow minister on a rotating or even random basis.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    saddened said:

    think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Is that why Cameron was doing Selfies at his funeral.

    The picture I posted contrasts what the two got up to in the 80;s Corbyn was campaigning against injustice, Cameron was in a group that loved trashing restaurants.
    Selfies at Mandela's funeral. That I'd like to see. Unless of course you're talking bollocks, and it was someone else asking him to be in their selfie. I'm sure you'll clear it up for me.
    Obama, Cameron, Schmidt take selfie at Mandela memorial

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25322260
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Can anyone tell me what Mandela actually did for black south Africans after his release..apart from enriching himself and his cronies... the townships are still there.. still without running water.. except in the open sewers.. no power except the power of the gang masters.. the ordinary black chap will barely have noticed his presence.. they still have shit lives..

    Seems a little harsh a judgment and somewhat overblown expectations given the starting point.

    FYI, from wikipedia:

    "Under Mandela's presidency, welfare spending increased by 13% in 1996/97, 13% in 1997/98, and 7% in 1998/99.[248] The government introduced parity in grants for communities, including disability grants, child maintenance grants, and old-age pensions, which had previously been set at different levels for South Africa's different racial groups.[248] In 1994, free healthcare was introduced for children under six and pregnant women, a provision extended to all those using primary level public sector health care services in 1996.[249][250] By the 1999 election, the ANC could boast that due to their policies, 3 million people were connected to telephone lines, 1.5 million children were brought into the education system, 500 clinics were upgraded or constructed, 2 million people were connected to the electricity grid, water access was extended to 3 million people, and 750,000 houses were constructed, housing nearly 3 million people.[251]

    "The Land Restitution Act of 1994 enabled people who had lost their property as a result of the Natives Land Act, 1913 to claim back their land, leading to the settlement of tens of thousands of land claims.[252] The Land Reform Act 3 of 1996 safeguarded the rights of labour tenants who live and grow crops or graze livestock on farms. This legislation ensured that such tenants could not be evicted without a court order or if they were over the age of 65.[253] The Skills Development Act of 1998 provided for the establishment of mechanisms to finance and promote skills development at the workplace.[254] The Labour Relations Act of 1995 promoted workplace democracy, orderly collective bargaining, and the effective resolution of labour disputes.[255] The Basic Conditions of Employment Act of 1997 improved enforcement mechanisms while extending a "floor" of rights to all workers;[255] the Employment Equity Act of 1998 was passed to put an end to unfair discrimination and ensure the implementation of affirmative action in the workplace"

    To me, that seems quite a set of accomplishments for one five-year term.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Dan Hodges latest.

    After the defeat, the resistance. Labour MPs shell-shocked by the scale of Jeremy Corbyn’s victory went to bed on Saturday evening members of a different party to the one they had woken up in. “Sixty percent. Jesus” was the dumbstruck reaction of one shadow cabinet member

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11862193/The-secret-armies-fighting-Jeremy-Corbyn-and-each-other.html
  • Cameron was fourteen to twenty-four during the 1980s.
    Corbyn was thirty-one to forty-one.

    I certainly did some silly things in my teens and early twenties. The difference between Cameron and Corbyn is that Cameron grew out of it, whilst Corbyn continues doing silly things to this day.

    He hasn't grown up intellectually, yet Labour have elected him as their leader.

    Oh, and for the n'th time today: attacks on Cameron about 'Bullingdon' did not work in 2010 or 2015. They're not going to work in 2020, unless Labour try to link it to another Red Rag-style smear.
    You think the fact of Corbyn protesting apartheid is being silly?

    20 years later Cameron supported war in Iraq Jezza didnt.

    Silly old Jezza grow up
    I think unchannelled, unfocussed protesting is silly, if that is what he as doing. Going on marches and shouting mostly achieves little except to make the protesters feel good and disrupt the lives of others.

    But I was not referring to that, as well you know. Corbyn's atrocious back catalogue is being opened day by day. There is plenty of silliness (and worse) in it.

    And yes, he should grow up. It seems as if his mind and opinions have not altered much since he was a teenager.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307




    I (genuinely) defer to your knowledge on the issue. But doesn't your post to some extent reinforce mine - the UK Govt are trying to avoid getting involved and leaving it to the NI parties to sort it out for themselves. Do the dynamics not change somewhat if the Opposition start agitating in Parliament and undermining this policy (especially if it's on the instigation of Sinn Fein).

    The role of Westminster is over-estimated on this issue.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718

    Cameron was fourteen to twenty-four during the 1980s.
    Corbyn was thirty-one to forty-one.

    I certainly did some silly things in my teens and early twenties. The difference between Cameron and Corbyn is that Cameron grew out of it, whilst Corbyn continues doing silly things to this day.

    He hasn't grown up intellectually, yet Labour have elected him as their leader.

    Oh, and for the n'th time today: attacks on Cameron about 'Bullingdon' did not work in 2010 or 2015. They're not going to work in 2020, unless Labour try to link it to another Red Rag-style smear.
    You think the fact of Corbyn protesting apartheid is being silly?

    20 years later Cameron supported war in Iraq Jezza didnt.

    Silly old Jezza grow up
    Like!
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    saddened said:

    think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Is that why Cameron was doing Selfies at his funeral.

    The picture I posted contrasts what the two got up to in the 80;s Corbyn was campaigning against injustice, Cameron was in a group that loved trashing restaurants.
    Selfies at Mandela's funeral. That I'd like to see. Unless of course you're talking bollocks, and it was someone else asking him to be in their selfie. I'm sure you'll clear it up for me.
    Obama, Cameron, Schmidt take selfie at Mandela memorial

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25322260
    Erm, no Schmidt takes selfie, Obama and Cameron are in it. Unless of course he should have leaned out of the way and pulled his jacket over his head?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723



    think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Is that why Cameron was doing Selfies at his funeral.

    The picture I posted contrasts what the two got up to in the 80;s Corbyn was campaigning against injustice, Cameron was in a group that loved trashing restaurants.
    Aren't you confusing him with Neil Kinnock's daughter in law? Oh - and Barack Obama?
    To be fair I am confusing you with someone with a brain.
    Funny being insulted by PBs Mr MENSA
  • alex. said:

    Y0kel said:

    alex. said:



    It does matter. Northern Ireland is in a dangerous position, that could be made worse if the UK parties can't put on a united front.

    Is it? Many people in NI see it is as a result of a dysfunctional system of government where everyone wins a prize and one that mysteriously left paramilitaries intact as long as they didn't make too many waves.

    Some history. One of the major problems has been welfare reform. A deal was done by Martin McGuinness & Peter Robinson on this, one that was considered not too bad for Sinn Fein (and it wouldn't worry the Unionists either as everyone here seems to think its all terrible having to cut welfare even if it is necessary).

    Marty then had the rug pulled under him on the deal by Gerry Adams and had to do a public volte face as protest politics took over from making hard decisions. That deadlock is killing NI's budget and its devolved Executives ability to function. A second deal was well on its way and that September was set down by DUP sources as a likely time for 'progress' to be made.

    Next thing you know the haven't gone aways of the Provisional IRA showed they hadn't gone away and topped Kevin McGuigan. Unionists are hacked off (even though they all knew the Provo's haven't gone anywhere it came as a shock, if not a surprise). Intra-Unionist politics is also in play with the UUP outflanking the DUP over this matter. Robinson has played procedural tactics that enable the executive to marginally function without collapse whilst trying to bring the issue of the paramilitaries continued existence on the table.

    Downing Street though have said no to Robinson's requests for some procedural suspensions and basically told local parties to sort it themselves. The Irish government also pressed the SDLP on the nationalist side to agree to a suspension of Assembly business to give breathing space to negotiations, the SDLP said no. Might be the right call by London at this point. A damaging elements of the Blair government's time was that they came running along every time local politicians couldn't be arsed making their own way. That policy began to change under Brown and continued to change under Cameron.

    [snip]

    I (genuinely) defer to your knowledge on the issue. But doesn't your post to some extent reinforce mine - the UK Govt are trying to avoid getting involved and leaving it to the NI parties to sort it out for themselves. Do the dynamics not change somewhat if the Opposition start agitating in Parliament and undermining this policy (especially if it's on the instigation of Sinn Fein).
    Correct


  • think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Is that why Cameron was doing Selfies at his funeral.

    The picture I posted contrasts what the two got up to in the 80;s Corbyn was campaigning against injustice, Cameron was in a group that loved trashing restaurants.
    Aren't you confusing him with Neil Kinnock's daughter in law? Oh - and Barack Obama?
    To be fair I am confusing you with someone with a brain.
    Funny being insulted by PBs Mr MENSA
    So you are confusing him then. thanks.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    It's like our version of the Vatican :wink:

    JEO said:

    JEO said:

    alex. said:

    alex. said:

    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    Corbyn had discussions with Burnham this afternoon apparently. I still have a suspicion that Burnham will have been saying Shadow Chancellor or I am not playing. If so, it will be an early test of Corbyn's mettle.

    I don't think AB will get the Shadow Chancellor's job. I could be wrong.

    John McDonnell or Angela Eagle probably. I will be surprised if it is not JM. What is the point of receiving 60% of the votes, then worrying about making an appointment to "please the City".

    JC probably thinks the City [ particularly , the Banks ] is the root of the problems facing this country.

    Burnham will probably get Foreign Affairs or Home. Hilary Benn has played his cards well by keeping his mouth shut. Also, supporting the Palestinian cause will not be a big problem for him. It might have been for one or two like Rachel Reeves, for instance.
    Bit of a problem with taking on the City. It's this little thing called Magna Carta ;)
    Most of which has been repealed. If they have any sense they'll announce their intention to abolish the City of London corporation immediately. Corbyn has little chance of winning an election. He might as well come out all guns blazing and change the political conversation.
    But that's what's enshrined in Magna Carta. "Immediately" abolishing 800 years of English Law is not exactly a simple matter...
    I'm a mainstream Tory and I'd completely support abolition of the City of London corporation.
    Why?
    It's an extreme anachronism. A corporation with leaders elected by shareholders (including companies) that rules over a territory?

    Plus the City's police force is corrupt as hell and the Met should take over.
    Many a true word spoken in jest, Miss Plato. The UK now worships money and the City is, and has been for nearly 2000 years, the centre of money in the UK.
    Keep the old faith, Mr Llama, keep the old faith
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    saddened said:

    think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Is that why Cameron was doing Selfies at his funeral.

    The picture I posted contrasts what the two got up to in the 80;s Corbyn was campaigning against injustice, Cameron was in a group that loved trashing restaurants.
    Selfies at Mandela's funeral. That I'd like to see. Unless of course you're talking bollocks, and it was someone else asking him to be in their selfie. I'm sure you'll clear it up for me.
    Obama, Cameron, Schmidt take selfie at Mandela memorial

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25322260
    Indeed, Mrs Obama was none too impressed with hubby.

    http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/454786231-president-barack-obama-and-british-prime-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=GkZZ8bf5zL1ZiijUmxa7Qc6r1VHbBALMk7B422qlfiV2yGnETT5NTuf+41QXPvTD6OE7lG6kYuqcYtFndd/ztw==
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    JEO said:

    So Ivan Lewis has been sacked by Corbyn as part of his bridge building. Who will get the shadow NI role now? I imagine Labour will become more overtly pro-Nationalist/Republican.

    I don't know much about Ivan Lewis. Could you tell me more about the implications of what sacking him means?

    A Blairite. Offered to stay on in shadow cabinet given current problems in NI. Corbyn said no.

    Broad church indeed.
  • alex. said:

    Is it just an outside possibility that there is a coup going on in the PLP? ;) If he can't put together a Shadow Cabinet then he really can't continue as leader in Parliament. He'll just have to be leader in the country - like Nicola Sturgeon, Farage and the Green person.

    There are 232 Labour MPs, how many are needed for a Shadow Cabinet? 23 is less than one in every 10 MPs.

    A lot of no-name MPs who were in the Shadow Cabinet are getting replaced with new no-name MPs. The bulk of public likely won't know the difference.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    Sean_F said:

    I also think one thing the Tories could and should do now is rise to the opportunity presented by Corbyn, and offer an olive branch to reasonable and broadly free market liberal Labour MPs on the Blairite wing and right of that, and of course the many thousands of Labour members and activists out there, and invite them across to join the Tories. That they are seen to be doing that (even if few Labour folk are ever going to do that) may resonate more positively with floating voters, and demonstrate how far Labour has now moved to the Hard Left, than silliness like we heard from Dave and M Fallon this weekend about "risks to security of the nation".

    But he *is* a risk to national security.
    I understand Mr Corbyn has, or is about to, become a Privy Councillor. For this, he presumably has agreed to keep certain categories of information to himself.

    What concerns me is what happens when this promise of his comes up against his famous principles.
  • Cameron was fourteen to twenty-four during the 1980s.
    Corbyn was thirty-one to forty-one.

    I certainly did some silly things in my teens and early twenties. The difference between Cameron and Corbyn is that Cameron grew out of it, whilst Corbyn continues doing silly things to this day.

    He hasn't grown up intellectually, yet Labour have elected him as their leader.

    Oh, and for the n'th time today: attacks on Cameron about 'Bullingdon' did not work in 2010 or 2015. They're not going to work in 2020, unless Labour try to link it to another Red Rag-style smear.
    You think the fact of Corbyn protesting apartheid is being silly?

    20 years later Cameron supported war in Iraq Jezza didnt.

    Silly old Jezza grow up
    I think unchannelled, unfocussed protesting is silly, if that is what he as doing. Going on marches and shouting mostly achieves little except to make the protesters feel good and disrupt the lives of others.
    But I was not referring to that, as well you know. Corbyn's atrocious back catalogue is being opened day by day. There is plenty of silliness (and worse) in it.
    And yes, he should grow up. It seems as if his mind and opinions have not altered much since he was a teenager.
    The word that stands out from you for me is 'shouting'
    Corbyn is Mr Shouty.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718

    Cameron was fourteen to twenty-four during the 1980s.
    Corbyn was thirty-one to forty-one.

    I certainly did some silly things in my teens and early twenties. The difference between Cameron and Corbyn is that Cameron grew out of it, whilst Corbyn continues doing silly things to this day.

    He hasn't grown up intellectually, yet Labour have elected him as their leader.

    Oh, and for the n'th time today: attacks on Cameron about 'Bullingdon' did not work in 2010 or 2015. They're not going to work in 2020, unless Labour try to link it to another Red Rag-style smear.
    You think the fact of Corbyn protesting apartheid is being silly?

    20 years later Cameron supported war in Iraq Jezza didnt.

    Silly old Jezza grow up
    I think unchannelled, unfocussed protesting is silly, if that is what he as doing. Going on marches and shouting mostly achieves little except to make the protesters feel good and disrupt the lives of others.

    But I was not referring to that, as well you know. Corbyn's atrocious back catalogue is being opened day by day. There is plenty of silliness (and worse) in it.

    And yes, he should grow up. It seems as if his mind and opinions have not altered much since he was a teenager.
    Just because he hasn't moved to the right, as middle class people are "supposed" to do! .....
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723

    think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Is that why Cameron was doing Selfies at his funeral.

    The picture I posted contrasts what the two got up to in the 80;s Corbyn was campaigning against injustice, Cameron was in a group that loved trashing restaurants.
    Point of accuracy -- wasn’t it Mrs Stephen Kinnock who was doing selfies ?
    Yes wife of Labour MP asked Cameron for a pic with Obama and he politely agreed
    . BJowls sees this as a terrible act.....
    I think you miss the point someone up thread was slagging Mandella. I merely asked why was Cameron at his funeral (presumably not just to get a selfie with Obama
  • Christopher Hope ‏@christopherhope 13m13 minutes ago

    BREAKING Jeremy Corbyn to unveil his shadow Cabinet "within hours", his campaign chairman John McDonnell says at TUC fringe tonight
  • Conor Pope @Conorpope
    Seems like Corbyn's reluctance to promise to campaign for an EU ref 'In' vote led to Chuka leaving Shad Cab labourlist.org/2015/09/livebl…

    I wonder what odds are available on Cameron, however reluctantly, recommending to the British people that we vote to leave?

    "I hoped and tried to achieve reforms within the EU that would make our place within it secure. Unfortunately, it has proved impossible to achieve these reforms. With the EU's borders breaking down, the continuing problems within the Eurozone, and the EU heading towards ever-further integration that is not in British interests, I reluctantly have to say that it is in Britain's best interests to leave. I wish all my MPs and ministers to vote freely according to their consciences."

    It would create difficulties, but the entire situation will be difficult.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited September 2015
    Everything going well with the Corbyn revolution then? :smiley:
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Cameron was fourteen to twenty-four during the 1980s.
    Corbyn was thirty-one to forty-one.

    I certainly did some silly things in my teens and early twenties. The difference between Cameron and Corbyn is that Cameron grew out of it, whilst Corbyn continues doing silly things to this day.

    He hasn't grown up intellectually, yet Labour have elected him as their leader.

    Oh, and for the n'th time today: attacks on Cameron about 'Bullingdon' did not work in 2010 or 2015. They're not going to work in 2020, unless Labour try to link it to another Red Rag-style smear.
    You think the fact of Corbyn protesting apartheid is being silly?

    20 years later Cameron supported war in Iraq Jezza didnt.

    Silly old Jezza grow up
    Labour Pm briefed him and opposition with lies.
    We are having an investigation into that in case you hadn't noticed by now.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Charles said:

    It's like our version of the Vatican :wink:

    JEO said:

    JEO said:

    alex. said:

    alex. said:

    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    Corbyn had discussions with Burnham this afternoon apparently. I still have a suspicion that Burnham will have been saying Shadow Chancellor or I am not playing. If so, it will be an early test of Corbyn's mettle.

    I don't think AB will get the Shadow Chancellor's job. I could be wrong.

    John McDonnell or Angela Eagle probably. I will be surprised if it is not JM. What is the point of receiving 60% of the votes, then worrying about making an appointment to "please the City".

    JC probably thinks the City [ particularly , the Banks ] is the root of the problems facing this country.

    Burnham will probably get Foreign Affairs or Home. Hilary Benn has played his cards well by keeping his mouth shut. Also, supporting the Palestinian cause will not be a big problem for him. It might have been for one or two like Rachel Reeves, for instance.
    Bit of a problem with taking on the City. It's this little thing called Magna Carta ;)
    Most of which has been repealed. If they have any sense they'll announce their intention to abolish the City of London corporation immediately. Corbyn has little chance of winning an election. He might as well come out all guns blazing and change the political conversation.
    But that's what's enshrined in Magna Carta. "Immediately" abolishing 800 years of English Law is not exactly a simple matter...
    I'm a mainstream Tory and I'd completely support abolition of the City of London corporation.
    Why?
    It's an extreme anachronism. A corporation with leaders elected by shareholders (including companies) that rules over a territory?

    Plus the City's police force is corrupt as hell and the Met should take over.
    Many a true word spoken in jest, Miss Plato. The UK now worships money and the City is, and has been for nearly 2000 years, the centre of money in the UK.
    Keep the old faith, Mr Llama, keep the old faith
    I shall, Mr Charles, I shall. I do get miffed when people criticise the City unfairly, especially when they should know better.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Is that why Cameron was doing Selfies at his funeral.

    The picture I posted contrasts what the two got up to in the 80;s Corbyn was campaigning against injustice, Cameron was in a group that loved trashing restaurants.
    Point of accuracy -- wasn’t it Mrs Stephen Kinnock who was doing selfies ?
    Yes wife of Labour MP asked Cameron for a pic with Obama and he politely agreed
    . BJowls sees this as a terrible act.....
    I think you miss the point someone up thread was slagging Mandella. I merely asked why was Cameron at his funeral (presumably not just to get a selfie with Obama
    Because he was representing HM government, it's really not difficult, unlike not being able differentiate being in someone's selfie, rather than taking one which you seem to be struggling with.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I think it was @Morris_Dancer who suggested this possibility as not as incredible as it would've been a month ago.

    I remain sceptical - but given how many of us are shifting to Leave just on here, I could almost see it happening. I don't mind him campaigning for Stay, but it's running against the tide of opinion and I'd prefer he wasn't on the losing side for the sake of it.

    Conor Pope @Conorpope
    Seems like Corbyn's reluctance to promise to campaign for an EU ref 'In' vote led to Chuka leaving Shad Cab labourlist.org/2015/09/livebl…

    I wonder what odds are available on Cameron, however reluctantly, recommending to the British people that we vote to leave?

    "I hoped and tried to achieve reforms within the EU that would make our place within it secure. Unfortunately, it has proved impossible to achieve these reforms. With the EU's borders breaking down, the continuing problems within the Eurozone, and the EU heading towards ever-further integration that is not in British interests, I reluctantly have to say that it is in Britain's best interests to leave. I wish all my MPs and ministers to vote freely according to their consciences."

    It would create difficulties, but the entire situation will be difficult.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    HYUFD said:

    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sanders surges into Iowa and NH leads, Clinton leads SC

    Iowa

    Sanders 43%
    Clinton 33%
    Biden 10%

    NH

    Sanders 52%
    Clinton 30%
    Biden 9%

    SC

    Clinton 46%
    Sanders 23%
    Biden 22%
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/battleground-tracker-sanders-surges-in-ia-nh-clinton-up-in-sc/

    I.e. Clinton leads in South Carolina until the voters start focusing on the issue. Expect SC VIs to follow the same pattern over time as NH and IA
    South Carolina is much more conservative, even South Carolina Democrats, I cannot see Sanders doing well there, if Clinton really suffers further damage SC will be where Biden really takes off if he runs, he is already just 1% behind Sanders in the state
    Agreed Biden would be an immediate challenger in SC. But Bernie, having established his lead in the first two states is now turning his attention to SC for the first real time, and in particular to Hillary's redoubt there, the black vote. If he can make headways into that, Hillary is in serious trouble in the State.

    It is remarkable that Hillary is below 50% in SC already.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    alex. said:

    Is it just an outside possibility that there is a coup going on in the PLP? ;) If he can't put together a Shadow Cabinet then he really can't continue as leader in Parliament. He'll just have to be leader in the country - like Nicola Sturgeon, Farage and the Green person.

    There are 232 Labour MPs, how many are needed for a Shadow Cabinet? 23 is less than one in every 10 MPs.

    A lot of no-name MPs who were in the Shadow Cabinet are getting replaced with new no-name MPs. The bulk of public likely won't know the difference.
    Well it's a greater number than his public supporters. Usual practice is to appoint a team of shadow junior ministers as well of course...
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723



    think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Is that why Cameron was doing Selfies at his funeral.

    The picture I posted contrasts what the two got up to in the 80;s Corbyn was campaigning against injustice, Cameron was in a group that loved trashing restaurants.
    Aren't you confusing him with Neil Kinnock's daughter in law? Oh - and Barack Obama?
    To be fair I am confusing you with someone with a brain.
    Funny being insulted by PBs Mr MENSA
    So you are confusing him then. thanks.
    Can you not see 3 people? If you can read I was responding to the comment

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.

    WHY WAS CAMERON THERE IF HE WAS "RESPONSIBLE FOR TERRORIST ACTS"

    As someone thinks
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Floater said:

    JEO said:

    So Ivan Lewis has been sacked by Corbyn as part of his bridge building. Who will get the shadow NI role now? I imagine Labour will become more overtly pro-Nationalist/Republican.

    I don't know much about Ivan Lewis. Could you tell me more about the implications of what sacking him means?

    A Blairite. Offered to stay on in shadow cabinet given current problems in NI. Corbyn said no.

    Broad church indeed.
    the caveat was to stay on "for the time being..."
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    I thought it was some huge number when they're all counted - over 100 inc PPS etc
    alex. said:

    alex. said:

    Is it just an outside possibility that there is a coup going on in the PLP? ;) If he can't put together a Shadow Cabinet then he really can't continue as leader in Parliament. He'll just have to be leader in the country - like Nicola Sturgeon, Farage and the Green person.

    There are 232 Labour MPs, how many are needed for a Shadow Cabinet? 23 is less than one in every 10 MPs.

    A lot of no-name MPs who were in the Shadow Cabinet are getting replaced with new no-name MPs. The bulk of public likely won't know the difference.
    Well it's a greater number than his public supporters. Usual practice is to appoint a team of shadow junior ministers as well of course...
  • MTimT said:

    Seems a little harsh a judgment and somewhat overblown expectations given the starting point.

    FYI, from wikipedia:

    "Under Mandela's presidency, welfare spending increased by 13% in 1996/97, 13% in 1997/98, and 7% in 1998/99.[248] The government introduced parity in grants for communities, including disability grants, child maintenance grants, and old-age pensions, which had previously been set at different levels for South Africa's different racial groups.[248] In 1994, free healthcare was introduced for children under six and pregnant women, a provision extended to all those using primary level public sector health care services in 1996.[249][250] By the 1999 election, the ANC could boast that due to their policies, 3 million people were connected to telephone lines, 1.5 million children were brought into the education system, 500 clinics were upgraded or constructed, 2 million people were connected to the electricity grid, water access was extended to 3 million people, and 750,000 houses were constructed, housing nearly 3 million people.[251]

    "The Land Restitution Act of 1994 enabled people who had lost their property as a result of the Natives Land Act, 1913 to claim back their land, leading to the settlement of tens of thousands of land claims.[252] The Land Reform Act 3 of 1996 safeguarded the rights of labour tenants who live and grow crops or graze livestock on farms. This legislation ensured that such tenants could not be evicted without a court order or if they were over the age of 65.[253] The Skills Development Act of 1998 provided for the establishment of mechanisms to finance and promote skills development at the workplace.[254] The Labour Relations Act of 1995 promoted workplace democracy, orderly collective bargaining, and the effective resolution of labour disputes.[255] The Basic Conditions of Employment Act of 1997 improved enforcement mechanisms while extending a "floor" of rights to all workers;[255] the Employment Equity Act of 1998 was passed to put an end to unfair discrimination and ensure the implementation of affirmative action in the workplace"

    To me, that seems quite a set of accomplishments for one five-year term.

    Mandela as president was in many ways a different person to Mandela the youngster (and I think he said as much himself).

    IMO Mandela's biggest mistake as SA president was having Mbeki has his deputy, and allowing Mbeki to stand for president. Mandela did a good job as president (and helped by a great deal of international goodwill); his successor did not.
  • Will the last one left in the shadow cabinet please turn out the lights?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    surbiton said:

    Kevin McGuigan murder: Sinn Féin's Bobby Storey says IRA is 'not coming back'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34238430

    WTF are you on Sunil. Give it a rest.
    Why are you threatening him ? This is not Shankill, you know.
    Give it a rest is a threat?

    LOL oh bless the precious little flower.
  • Will the last one left in the shadow cabinet please turn out the lights?

    Arf.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    The Labour Party is in really serious trouble tonight. At the moment it looks like the worst possible scenario.


    As much as I like Corbyn's demeanour and way of presenting himself, it is just impossible to think of a political party leader who is so out of tune with 90% of it's MP's.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Conor Pope @Conorpope
    Seems like Corbyn's reluctance to promise to campaign for an EU ref 'In' vote led to Chuka leaving Shad Cab labourlist.org/2015/09/livebl…

    I wonder what odds are available on Cameron, however reluctantly, recommending to the British people that we vote to leave?

    "I hoped and tried to achieve reforms within the EU that would make our place within it secure. Unfortunately, it has proved impossible to achieve these reforms. With the EU's borders breaking down, the continuing problems within the Eurozone, and the EU heading towards ever-further integration that is not in British interests, I reluctantly have to say that it is in Britain's best interests to leave. I wish all my MPs and ministers to vote freely according to their consciences."

    It would create difficulties, but the entire situation will be difficult.
    Indeed, that is the situation I am hoping for. I don't think it is realistic to expect Cameron to recommend or whip a No, so that scenario is the best we can hope for, given that regardless of the deal he ends up negotiating, the statement that 'the EU heading towards ever-further integration that is not in British interests' will remain true.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Corbyn has really excelled in building his media profile and not antagonising journalists today...

    Still maybe they get paid double overtime?
  • So Lewis only wanted the NI gig on a short term basis and JC said no deal. NOT quite a sacking then.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Darren McCaffrey from Twitter12m
    The long wait with #Corbyn in Parliament @adamtimsmith @georgeeaton @BBCEleanorG. They are literally turning the lights off around us.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245



    think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Is that why Cameron was doing Selfies at his funeral.

    The picture I posted contrasts what the two got up to in the 80;s Corbyn was campaigning against injustice, Cameron was in a group that loved trashing restaurants.
    Aren't you confusing him with Neil Kinnock's daughter in law? Oh - and Barack Obama?
    To be fair I am confusing you with someone with a brain.
    Funny being insulted by PBs Mr MENSA
    So you are confusing him then. thanks.
    Can you not see 3 people?
    It's obvious you don't actually know what a selfie is, or are being wilfully ignorant. In either case it's pointless continuing.
  • tyson said:

    The Labour Party is in really serious trouble tonight. At the moment it looks like the worst possible scenario.


    As much as I like Corbyn's demeanour and way of presenting himself, it is just impossible to think of a political party leader who is so out of tune with 90% of it's MP's.

    OTOH 90% of the MPs may be out of tune with the Party?
  • Cameron was fourteen to twenty-four during the 1980s.
    Corbyn was thirty-one to forty-one.

    I certainly did some silly things in my teens and early twenties. The difference between Cameron and Corbyn is that Cameron grew out of it, whilst Corbyn continues doing silly things to this day.

    He hasn't grown up intellectually, yet Labour have elected him as their leader.

    Oh, and for the n'th time today: attacks on Cameron about 'Bullingdon' did not work in 2010 or 2015. They're not going to work in 2020, unless Labour try to link it to another Red Rag-style smear.
    You think the fact of Corbyn protesting apartheid is being silly?

    20 years later Cameron supported war in Iraq Jezza didnt.

    Silly old Jezza grow up
    I think unchannelled, unfocussed protesting is silly, if that is what he as doing. Going on marches and shouting mostly achieves little except to make the protesters feel good and disrupt the lives of others.

    But I was not referring to that, as well you know. Corbyn's atrocious back catalogue is being opened day by day. There is plenty of silliness (and worse) in it.

    And yes, he should grow up. It seems as if his mind and opinions have not altered much since he was a teenager.
    Just because he hasn't moved to the right, as middle class people are "supposed" to do! .....
    It's not that he hasn't moved to the right, he seemingly hasn't moved at all.
  • alex. said:

    alex. said:

    Is it just an outside possibility that there is a coup going on in the PLP? ;) If he can't put together a Shadow Cabinet then he really can't continue as leader in Parliament. He'll just have to be leader in the country - like Nicola Sturgeon, Farage and the Green person.

    There are 232 Labour MPs, how many are needed for a Shadow Cabinet? 23 is less than one in every 10 MPs.

    A lot of no-name MPs who were in the Shadow Cabinet are getting replaced with new no-name MPs. The bulk of public likely won't know the difference.
    Well it's a greater number than his public supporters. Usual practice is to appoint a team of shadow junior ministers as well of course...
    The promise of greater fame and a chance to raise your own profile will be very tempting for many of the two hundred who were previously not a part of the front bench. Some will see this as an opportunity to make their own name for the future that they may not have got with the previous front bench there.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    tyson said:

    The Labour Party is in really serious trouble tonight. At the moment it looks like the worst possible scenario.


    As much as I like Corbyn's demeanour and way of presenting himself, it is just impossible to think of a political party leader who is so out of tune with 90% of it's MP's.

    Or 90% of MPs out of tune with the members?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    So given Cameron thinks the Labour party are a threat to national security what is he going to do about it?

    There's an entire Terrorism Act to use. I'd strongly advise him to make the Labour Party a proscribed organisation - or at least get control orders on its leaders.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    saddened said:

    think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Is that why Cameron was doing Selfies at his funeral.

    The picture I posted contrasts what the two got up to in the 80;s Corbyn was campaigning against injustice, Cameron was in a group that loved trashing restaurants.
    Point of accuracy -- wasn’t it Mrs Stephen Kinnock who was doing selfies ?
    Yes wife of Labour MP asked Cameron for a pic with Obama and he politely agreed
    . BJowls sees this as a terrible act.....
    I think you miss the point someone up thread was slagging Mandella. I merely asked why was Cameron at his funeral (presumably not just to get a selfie with Obama
    Because he was representing HM government, it's really not difficult, unlike not being able differentiate being in someone's selfie, rather than taking one which you seem to be struggling with.
    Who said taking Selfies I said doing Selfies.

    Once youve cleared that up perhaps you can clear up why Apartheid was not all bad as some appear to think.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    tyson said:

    The Labour Party is in really serious trouble tonight. At the moment it looks like the worst possible scenario.


    As much as I like Corbyn's demeanour and way of presenting himself, it is just impossible to think of a political party leader who is so out of tune with 90% of it's MP's.

    Don't panic - Surbiton and BJO are manning the Corbyn barricades with the latest twitter storm against Cameron. All is not... wait , actually yes, you're right - Labour are well and truly shafted.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    So Lewis only wanted the NI gig on a short term basis and JC said no deal. NOT quite a sacking then.

    He didn't "want" it. He offered to stay on at a time when the issue is potentially rising up the agenda, to avoid having a new person having to come in and get up to speed. I imagine he wasn't seriously interested in being in Corbyn's team.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    Seems a little harsh a judgment and somewhat overblown expectations given the starting point.

    FYI, from wikipedia:

    "Under Mandela's presidency, welfare spending increased by 13% in 1996/97, 13% in 1997/98, and 7% in 1998/99.[248] The government introduced parity in grants for communities, including disability grants, child maintenance grants, and old-age pensions, which had previously been set at different levels for South Africa's different racial groups.[248] In 1994, free healthcare was introduced for children under six and pregnant women, a provision extended to all those using primary level public sector health care services in 1996.[249][250] By the 1999 election, the ANC could boast that due to their policies, 3 million people were connected to telephone lines, 1.5 million children were brought into the education system, 500 clinics were upgraded or constructed, 2 million people were connected to the electricity grid, water access was extended to 3 million people, and 750,000 houses were constructed, housing nearly 3 million people.[251]

    "The Land Restitution Act of 1994 enabled people who had lost their property as a result of the Natives Land Act, 1913 to claim back their land, leading to the settlement of tens of thousands of land claims.[252] The Land Reform Act 3 of 1996 safeguarded the rights of labour tenants who live and grow crops or graze livestock on farms. This legislation ensured that such tenants could not be evicted without a court order or if they were over the age of 65.[253] The Skills Development Act of 1998 provided for the establishment of mechanisms to finance and promote skills development at the workplace.[254] The Labour Relations Act of 1995 promoted workplace democracy, orderly collective bargaining, and the effective resolution of labour disputes.[255] The Basic Conditions of Employment Act of 1997 improved enforcement mechanisms while extending a "floor" of rights to all workers;[255] the Employment Equity Act of 1998 was passed to put an end to unfair discrimination and ensure the implementation of affirmative action in the workplace"

    To me, that seems quite a set of accomplishments for one five-year term.

    Mandela as president was in many ways a different person to Mandela the youngster (and I think he said as much himself).

    IMO Mandela's biggest mistake as SA president was having Mbeki has his deputy, and allowing Mbeki to stand for president. Mandela did a good job as president (and helped by a great deal of international goodwill); his successor did not.
    Absolutely agree. I think after a decade or so in Robben Island, he developed an enduring character flaw - assuming the best in his colleagues, which blinded him to the worst in Winnie and others.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    tyson said:

    The Labour Party is in really serious trouble tonight. At the moment it looks like the worst possible scenario.


    As much as I like Corbyn's demeanour and way of presenting himself, it is just impossible to think of a political party leader who is so out of tune with 90% of it's MP's.

    Its impressive how they keep finding new and innovative ways to fuck things up.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sanders surges into Iowa and NH leads, Clinton leads SC

    Iowa

    Sanders 43%
    Clinton 33%
    Biden 10%

    NH

    Sanders 52%
    Clinton 30%
    Biden 9%

    SC

    Clinton 46%
    Sanders 23%
    Biden 22%
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/battleground-tracker-sanders-surges-in-ia-nh-clinton-up-in-sc/

    I.e. Clinton leads in South Carolina until the voters start focusing on the issue. Expect SC VIs to follow the same pattern over time as NH and IA
    South Carolina is much more conservative, even South Carolina Democrats, I cannot see Sanders doing well there, if Clinton really suffers further damage SC will be where Biden really takes off if he runs, he is already just 1% behind Sanders in the state
    Agreed Biden would be an immediate challenger in SC. But Bernie, having established his lead in the first two states is now turning his attention to SC for the first real time, and in particular to Hillary's redoubt there, the black vote. If he can make headways into that, Hillary is in serious trouble in the State.

    It is remarkable that Hillary is below 50% in SC already.
    Indeed, but the black vote is not a natural fit for Sanders, the white working class and Black and Hispanic votes are more likely to go for Clinton or Biden, intellectuals, graduate and professional Democratic voters for Sanders
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited September 2015
    alex. said:

    Corbyn has really excelled in building his media profile and not antagonising journalists today...

    Still maybe they get paid double overtime?

    Never interrupt someone when they are making a clusterfuck of a mistake.

    As Sean T said =(paraphrased) the media are just waiting.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    That YouGov appears to be out - but I can't find it. Any more eagle eyed than me?
  • Mandela as president was in many ways a different person to Mandela the youngster (and I think he said as much himself).

    IMO Mandela's biggest mistake as SA president was having Mbeki has his deputy, and allowing Mbeki to stand for president. Mandela did a good job as president (and helped by a great deal of international goodwill); his successor did not.

    And Mbeki's successors have done an even worse job. South Africa under Mandela held a lot of promise. South Africa under Zuma is not as optimistic.

    SA desperately needs the ANC's stranglehold on politics breaking. It isn't healthy to have a system where one party so dominates politics, it leads to complacency and corruption.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Jim Pickard @PickardJE
    Shadow cabinet reshuffle delay because some senior figures refusing to serve if John McDonnell is shadow chancellor. next.ft.com/9d4fd366-5a33-…
  • Cameron was fourteen to twenty-four during the 1980s.
    Corbyn was thirty-one to forty-one.

    I certainly did some silly things in my teens and early twenties. The difference between Cameron and Corbyn is that Cameron grew out of it, whilst Corbyn continues doing silly things to this day.

    He hasn't grown up intellectually, yet Labour have elected him as their leader.

    Oh, and for the n'th time today: attacks on Cameron about 'Bullingdon' did not work in 2010 or 2015. They're not going to work in 2020, unless Labour try to link it to another Red Rag-style smear.
    You think the fact of Corbyn protesting apartheid is being silly?

    20 years later Cameron supported war in Iraq Jezza didnt.

    Silly old Jezza grow up
    I think unchannelled, unfocussed protesting is silly, if that is what he as doing. Going on marches and shouting mostly achieves little except to make the protesters feel good and disrupt the lives of others.
    But I was not referring to that, as well you know. Corbyn's atrocious back catalogue is being opened day by day. There is plenty of silliness (and worse) in it.
    And yes, he should grow up. It seems as if his mind and opinions have not altered much since he was a teenager.
    The word that stands out from you for me is 'shouting'
    Corbyn is Mr Shouty.
    Better than your "Quiet Man" IDS :lol:
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    saddened said:



    think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Is that why Cameron was doing Selfies at his funeral.

    The picture I posted contrasts what the two got up to in the 80;s Corbyn was campaigning against injustice, Cameron was in a group that loved trashing restaurants.
    Aren't you confusing him with Neil Kinnock's daughter in law? Oh - and Barack Obama?
    To be fair I am confusing you with someone with a brain.
    Funny being insulted by PBs Mr MENSA
    So you are confusing him then. thanks.
    Can you not see 3 people?
    It's obvious you don't actually know what a selfie is, or are being wilfully ignorant. In either case it's pointless continuing.
    Best tell google that

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=obama+doing+a+selfie&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CCEQsARqFQoTCMeTud_g9McCFSSh2wodm7IEFQ&biw=777&bih=363
  • SeanT said:

    MikeL said:

    I'm amazed Corbyn is reportedly considering Angela Eagle for Shadow Chancellor.

    I know most people don't have a clue apart from the leaders and one or two other people but Shadow Chancellor is a very prominent position and it needs someone who will come across to the public as credible - Hilary Benn would probably be the best bet, if not him then maybe Burnham.

    But the public will not be able to imagine Eagle as Chancellor - which will just add to the questions they will have about Corbyn.

    She will however be the first lesbian Chancellor, with the possible exception of Sir Geoffrey Howe. For that reason alone Corbyn must be tempted. Though it might not please his Jezlamist chums.
    I lolled.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Darren McCaffrey from Twitter1m
    Shadow Cabinet far from complete... #Corbyn and Winterton still making frantic phone calls from their room in the Commons.

    "Frantic" - journalists are getting a bit peed off now...
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    It is Sputnik News. Treat as Soviet (deliberate use of this word) propaganda unless confirmed by a respectable source.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    How's this inclusive thing going then? Are we expecting more Labour MPs to follow the Labour whip or not? It must be getting close.
  • BJO is really scraping the barrel with a years old photo from Cameron's childhood and a years old photo taken by Mrs Kinnock.

    If that is all you have to condemn Cameron with then he must be great. But then we know Labourites think Cameron is great or else they wouldn't have gone with Corbyn.
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,662
    SeanT said:

    I think it was @Morris_Dancer who suggested this possibility as not as incredible as it would've been a month ago.

    I remain sceptical - but given how many of us are shifting to Leave just on here, I could almost see it happening. I don't mind him campaigning for Stay, but it's running against the tide of opinion and I'd prefer he wasn't on the losing side for the sake of it.

    Conor Pope @Conorpope
    Seems like Corbyn's reluctance to promise to campaign for an EU ref 'In' vote led to Chuka leaving Shad Cab labourlist.org/2015/09/livebl…

    I wonder what odds are available on Cameron, however reluctantly, recommending to the British people that we vote to leave?

    "I hoped and tried to achieve reforms within the EU that would make our place within it secure. Unfortunately, it has proved impossible to achieve these reforms. With the EU's borders breaking down, the continuing problems within the Eurozone, and the EU heading towards ever-further integration that is not in British interests, I reluctantly have to say that it is in Britain's best interests to leave. I wish all my MPs and ministers to vote freely according to their consciences."

    It would create difficulties, but the entire situation will be difficult.
    At the moment I'm voting OUT. A year ago I'd have said that was very very unlikely.
    It's one of the reasons why I think the Tory rebels did their cause a dis-service last week. A longer campaign will favour the status quo, allow the EU to interfere at will and lose the effects of some of the current obvious failings (Greece, refugees). A short sharp campaign would in my opinion lead to more concentrated and effective Out momentum.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    edited September 2015

    Conor Pope @Conorpope
    Seems like Corbyn's reluctance to promise to campaign for an EU ref 'In' vote led to Chuka leaving Shad Cab labourlist.org/2015/09/livebl…

    I wonder what odds are available on Cameron, however reluctantly, recommending to the British people that we vote to leave?

    "I hoped and tried to achieve reforms within the EU that would make our place within it secure. Unfortunately, it has proved impossible to achieve these reforms. With the EU's borders breaking down, the continuing problems within the Eurozone, and the EU heading towards ever-further integration that is not in British interests, I reluctantly have to say that it is in Britain's best interests to leave. I wish all my MPs and ministers to vote freely according to their consciences."

    It would create difficulties, but the entire situation will be difficult.
    Good evening, Mr. J., from where I sit there seem to be two likely scenarios with regard to Cameron and the EU.

    1. He comes back with a few minor changes that will not to be legally enforceable and tries to convince the UK he has succeeded and we should stay in.

    2. He comes back and gives the speech you describe.

    I think he will go for option 1 despite everything that is happening and will happen over the next couple of years. Cameron would sooner see the UK isolated in the EU and dictated to by the Eurozone members voting as a block than recommend leaving. One needs only to listen to his own words.

    However, there is a chance, and perhaps a growing chance, that the events in Europe will push him into doing the right thing. That said, Osborne, who seems more and more to be doing Brown and actually running the government, is reported to be wholly against any thought of leaving. So in my view, Cameron trying to do a Wilson remains very firmly odds on.
  • Jim Pickard @PickardJE
    Shadow cabinet reshuffle delay because some senior figures refusing to serve if John McDonnell is shadow chancellor. next.ft.com/9d4fd366-5a33-…

    Guessing thats Burnham, hes the only senior figure left
  • DavidL said:

    How's this inclusive thing going then? Are we expecting more Labour MPs to follow the Labour whip or not? It must be getting close.

    I blame Mike
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    HYUFD said:

    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sanders surges into Iowa and NH leads, Clinton leads SC

    Iowa

    Sanders 43%
    Clinton 33%
    Biden 10%

    NH

    Sanders 52%
    Clinton 30%
    Biden 9%

    SC

    Clinton 46%
    Sanders 23%
    Biden 22%
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/battleground-tracker-sanders-surges-in-ia-nh-clinton-up-in-sc/

    I.e. Clinton leads in South Carolina until the voters start focusing on the issue. Expect SC VIs to follow the same pattern over time as NH and IA
    South Carolina is much more conservative, even South Carolina Democrats, I cannot see Sanders doing well there, if Clinton really suffers further damage SC will be where Biden really takes off if he runs, he is already just 1% behind Sanders in the state
    Agreed Biden would be an immediate challenger in SC. But Bernie, having established his lead in the first two states is now turning his attention to SC for the first real time, and in particular to Hillary's redoubt there, the black vote. If he can make headways into that, Hillary is in serious trouble in the State.

    It is remarkable that Hillary is below 50% in SC already.
    Indeed, but the black vote is not a natural fit for Sanders, the white working class and Black and Hispanic votes are more likely to go for Clinton or Biden, intellectuals, graduate and professional Democratic voters for Sanders
    So says the current conventional wisdom, until it is no longer the case.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    tyson said:

    The Labour Party is in really serious trouble tonight. At the moment it looks like the worst possible scenario.


    As much as I like Corbyn's demeanour and way of presenting himself, it is just impossible to think of a political party leader who is so out of tune with 90% of it's MP's.

    It is becoming increasingly obvious even on day 2 that he will not have the support of the PLP and a serious lack of experience on the front benches. Meanwhile the experienced old hands if you like are sitting on the back benches as the new rebels. These rebel forces will of course be acutely aware of all the problems he has caused in the past and to some of them personally.
    I hope Rosie is made of strong stuff because whipping that lot into shape is going to be close to impossible.

    Meanwhile the options for SCOTE are Eagle or Burnham.

    Sweet Jesus....
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Isaac Duffy ن @IJduffy
    I wonder how far Corbyn's version of Labour's "broad church" actually stretches... Lenin to Mao?
  • SeanT said:

    Merkel's ALLIES accuse her of an "unparalleled historical mistake" in opening (then closing) Germany's borders.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/13/germany-to-close-borders-exit-schengen-emergency-measures?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Ach, Ja.

    It does rather paint her along the lines of the Grand Old Duke of York.
    Cameron grows in stature by the minute.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    edited September 2015
    tyson said:

    The Labour Party is in really serious trouble tonight. At the moment it looks like the worst possible scenario.


    As much as I like Corbyn's demeanour and way of presenting himself, it is just impossible to think of a political party leader who is so out of tune with 90% of it's MP's.

    Whoever would have thought it? This is yet another massive and totally unpredictable twist in the tale of an extraordinary summer.

    I'd assumed as an anti-capitalist, anti-western, serially disloyal friend of anti-semites, terrorists and gay-haters Jeremy Corby would act as a unifying figure in whose shadow cabinet mainstream Labour MPs would feel very happy to sit.

  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    I was only half joking earlier when i suggested that the SNP might need to lead for the Opposition in Parliament tomorrow...
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    saddened said:

    think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Is that why Cameron was doing Selfies at his funeral.

    The picture I posted contrasts what the two got up to in the 80;s Corbyn was campaigning against injustice, Cameron was in a group that loved trashing restaurants.
    Point of accuracy -- wasn’t it Mrs Stephen Kinnock who was doing selfies ?
    Yes wife of Labour MP asked Cameron for a pic with Obama and he politely agreed
    . BJowls sees this as a terrible act.....
    I think you miss the point someone up thread was slagging Mandella. I merely asked why was Cameron at his funeral (presumably not just to get a selfie with Obama
    Because he was representing HM government, it's really not difficult, unlike not being able differentiate being in someone's selfie, rather than taking one which you seem to be struggling with.
    Who said taking Selfies I said doing Selfies.

    Once youve cleared that up perhaps you can clear up why Apartheid was not all bad as some appear to think.
    Not sure how you intend to defend Apartheid but feel free to try, as Corbyn indicates, it seems the Left can defend all sorts of vile nastiness.

    Thankfully Margaret Thatcher abolished Apartheid in South Africa (and freed Mandela).
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245

    saddened said:



    think they're missing a trick.

    A much more significant difference between them is that, while Corbyn was getting arrested for protesting against apartheid, Cameron was off on a publicly funded jolly in South Africa, with the Conservative Party propping up the Botha regime and condemning Nelson Mandela as a terrorist.

    OF course Mandela was never responsible for any terrorist acts, ever. No one ever died because of what Mandela said or did.
    Is that why Cameron was doing Selfies at his funeral.

    The picture I posted contrasts what the two got up to in the 80;s Corbyn was campaigning against injustice, Cameron was in a group that loved trashing restaurants.
    Aren't you confusing him with Neil Kinnock's daughter in law? Oh - and Barack Obama?
    To be fair I am confusing you with someone with a brain.
    Funny being insulted by PBs Mr MENSA
    So you are confusing him then. thanks.
    Can you not see 3 people?
    It's obvious you don't actually know what a selfie is, or are being wilfully ignorant. In either case it's pointless continuing.
    Best tell google that

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=obama+doing+a+selfie&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CCEQsARqFQoTCMeTud_g9McCFSSh2wodm7IEFQ&biw=777&bih=363
    Care to select the picture where Cameron is taking a selfie? I'll donate 20 quid to the site, if you do, you donate 20 if you don't, Mike can let us know when the cash arrives.
  • Cameron was fourteen to twenty-four during the 1980s.
    Corbyn was thirty-one to forty-one.

    I certainly did some silly things in my teens and early twenties. The difference between Cameron and Corbyn is that Cameron grew out of it, whilst Corbyn continues doing silly things to this day.

    He hasn't grown up intellectually, yet Labour have elected him as their leader.

    Oh, and for the n'th time today: attacks on Cameron about 'Bullingdon' did not work in 2010 or 2015. They're not going to work in 2020, unless Labour try to link it to another Red Rag-style smear.
    You think the fact of Corbyn protesting apartheid is being silly?

    20 years later Cameron supported war in Iraq Jezza didnt.

    Silly old Jezza grow up
    I think unchannelled, unfocussed protesting is silly, if that is what he as doing. Going on marches and shouting mostly achieves little except to make the protesters feel good and disrupt the lives of others.
    But I was not referring to that, as well you know. Corbyn's atrocious back catalogue is being opened day by day. There is plenty of silliness (and worse) in it.
    And yes, he should grow up. It seems as if his mind and opinions have not altered much since he was a teenager.
    The word that stands out from you for me is 'shouting'
    Corbyn is Mr Shouty.
    Better than your "Quiet Man" IDS :lol:
    Your point being?

    Oh sorry - no point. Again.
  • I've got a week left as Guest editor left (not that I'm counting or anything)

    Any topics/subjects you'd like me to cover?
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    MTimT said:

    It is Sputnik News. Treat as Soviet (deliberate use of this word) propaganda unless confirmed by a respectable source.
    I was going to suggest it myself last week. A practical use of these museum pieces.
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.675732
  • Serious question, but what happens if Corbyn simply cant run a opposition?

    What actually happens to labour? A split?
  • SeanT said:

    Merkel's ALLIES accuse her of an "unparalleled historical mistake" in opening (then closing) Germany's borders.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/13/germany-to-close-borders-exit-schengen-emergency-measures?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Ach, Ja.

    It does rather paint her along the lines of the Grand Old Duke of York.
    Cameron grows in stature by the minute.
    How exactly does Cameron 'grow in stature' by someone else being crap?
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Jonathan said:

    tyson said:

    The Labour Party is in really serious trouble tonight. At the moment it looks like the worst possible scenario.


    As much as I like Corbyn's demeanour and way of presenting himself, it is just impossible to think of a political party leader who is so out of tune with 90% of it's MP's.

    Its impressive how they keep finding new and innovative ways to fuck things up.
    Have to admire the Honesty in the avatar given the previous ones were also very good.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    Jim Pickard @PickardJE
    Shadow cabinet reshuffle delay because some senior figures refusing to serve if John McDonnell is shadow chancellor. next.ft.com/9d4fd366-5a33-…

    Guessing thats Burnham, hes the only senior figure left
    Refusing to serve if McDonnell is SCotE, or refusing to serve unless they are SCotE?
  • SeanT said:

    Merkel's ALLIES accuse her of an "unparalleled historical mistake" in opening (then closing) Germany's borders.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/13/germany-to-close-borders-exit-schengen-emergency-measures?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Ach, Ja.

    It does rather paint her along the lines of the Grand Old Duke of York.
    Cameron grows in stature by the minute.
    How exactly does Cameron 'grow in stature' by someone else being crap?
    Einstein explained it best.
  • Conor Pope @Conorpope
    Seems like Corbyn's reluctance to promise to campaign for an EU ref 'In' vote led to Chuka leaving Shad Cab labourlist.org/2015/09/livebl…

    I wonder what odds are available on Cameron, however reluctantly, recommending to the British people that we vote to leave?

    "I hoped and tried to achieve reforms within the EU that would make our place within it secure. Unfortunately, it has proved impossible to achieve these reforms. With the EU's borders breaking down, the continuing problems within the Eurozone, and the EU heading towards ever-further integration that is not in British interests, I reluctantly have to say that it is in Britain's best interests to leave. I wish all my MPs and ministers to vote freely according to their consciences."

    It would create difficulties, but the entire situation will be difficult.
    Good evening, Mr. J., from where I sit there seem to be two likely scenarios with regard to Cameron and the EU.

    1. He comes back with a few minor changes that will not to be legally enforceable and tries to convince the UK he has succeeded and we should stay in.

    2. He comes back and gives the speech you describe.

    I think he will go for option 1 despite everything that is happening and will happen over the next couple of years. Cameron would sooner see the UK isolated in the EU and dictated to by the Eurozone members voting as a block than recommend leaving. One needs only to listen to his own words.

    However, there is a chance, and perhaps a growing chance, that the events in Europe will push him into doing the right thing. That said, Osborne, who seems more and more to be doing Brown and actually running the government, is reported to be wholly against any thought of leaving. So in my view, Cameron trying to do a Wilson remains very firmly odds on.
    We'll have to see. For instance, might Osborne change his mind if the City of London is threatened?

    It's going to be a very interesting debate; I'm just wondering if anything the 'stay' side will say will be able to push me back over the fence, or even onto their side. At the moment I'm accelerating towards the leafy pasture of 'leave'.

    (This is one of three issues preventing me from joining the Lib Dems at the moment)
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108


    SA desperately needs the ANC's stranglehold on politics breaking. It isn't healthy to have a system where one party so dominates politics, it leads to complacency and corruption.

    Thing is, the actual facts don;t really back up your assertion.

    While the ANC have clearly been pretty crap, all other examples of Dominant Party Systems I can think of - Norway, Japan, Taiwan - appear to have done spectacularly well for considerable spans of time.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    Serious question, but what happens if Corbyn simply cant run a opposition?

    What actually happens to labour? A split?

    Presumably if enough MPs refuse the whip then SNP become the official opposition.
  • I've got a week left as Guest editor left (not that I'm counting or anything)

    Any topics/subjects you'd like me to cover?

    Have you perhaps got an unpublished magnus opus on something that we could discuss?
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Wearing more than one hat??

    Serious question, but what happens if Corbyn simply cant run a opposition?

    What actually happens to labour? A split?

  • Jonathan said:

    tyson said:

    The Labour Party is in really serious trouble tonight. At the moment it looks like the worst possible scenario.


    As much as I like Corbyn's demeanour and way of presenting himself, it is just impossible to think of a political party leader who is so out of tune with 90% of it's MP's.

    Its impressive how they keep finding new and innovative ways to fuck things up.
    I guess this how you felt in the 90s when the Tories went out of their way to fuck things up and make themselves appealing to the electorate as a paper cut on the todger
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